More Griz problems

[cats2506]

http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2007/06/22/news/top/news01.txt

news from the missoulian

Griz teammate allegedly witnessed murder / Freeman ‘uncooperative' with investigation of Wilson, who is charged in slaying, visiting L.A. detective says

By TRISTAN SCOTT of the Missoulian
A second University of Montana football player was a witness when teammate Jimmy Wilson allegedly shot a man to death earlier this month, a Los Angeles County sheriff's detective said Thursday.

Other witnesses have placed Grizzly cornerback Qwenton J. Freeman, 22, at the scene of the shooting, said Sgt. Steve Rubino of the Los Angeles County sheriff's homicide bureau.

Rubino and other investigators traveled to Missoula this week to question UM football players about the June 2 homicide of Kevin Smoot, 29, of Lancaster, Calif.

“Another player was there, Qwenton Freeman, but he wasn't too cooperative,” Rubino said. “We have information that he was there, but we went to talk to him and he was uncooperative.”

James Leon “Jimmy” Wilson, 20, was scheduled for arraignment on Thursday in Los Angeles County Superior Court, but the hearing was continued until July 9. Wilson remains in custody on a $2 million bail amount.

[Tribe4SF]

This is taking on a bad odor for The Griz. The investigator is clearly not impressed.

[asu3peat]

This is taking on a bad odor for The Griz. The investigator is clearly not impressed.

"Because he did not complete the required community service, Freeman has two active warrants for his arrest out of Pima County, Ariz."


Shouldn't this issue be addressed by the AD or administration?

[DetroitFlyer]

Sounds to me like another Montana school needs a former PFL coach.... I can assure that Mike Kelly at Dayton or the UD AD, Ted Kissel, would absolutely never tolerate this kind of nonsense! We may not win national championships, but we do graduate our athletes, and run a very clean program. Mind you, no program is ever perfect, including Dayton's, but there is something to be said about the approach an institution uses to build a team and the expectations placed on the team itself. Not looking good out in Montana. I hope these incidents serve as a serious wake-up call to clean up the acts of the FCS teams in Montana.

[danefan]

Sounds to me like another Montana school needs a former PFL coach.... I can assure that Mike Kelly at Dayton or the UD AD, Ted Kissel, would absolutely never tolerate this kind of nonsense! We may not win national championships, but we do graduate our athletes, and run a very clean program. Mind you, no program is ever perfect, including Dayton's, but there is something to be said about the approach an institution uses to build a team and the expectations placed on the team itself. Not looking good out in Montana. I hope these incidents serve as a serious wake-up call to clean up the acts of the FCS teams in Montana.

It happens everywhere, its just not publicized as much. Look, it happened at Albany, who has one of the most old-school, no nonsense coaches at any level of football, anywhere. Its probable that it has happened at Dayton more than a few times as well...you probably just weren't privy to it.

[89Hen]

It happens everywhere, its just not publicized as much.
xnodx We had some issues last off-season, and who can forget the UNC punter incident?

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/sports/9837229/detail.html

[NoCoDanny]

Among the complainants is a Missoula man who says Wilson threatened him with a gun during an altercation in October 2005, and a Missoula woman who says her son was assaulted downtown in April 2006 by a group of men that included Wilson.

No charges were filed at the request of the victim, who feared reprisals. The incident was reported to UM officials, who refuse to discuss how they addressed the complaint.

The man allegedly threatened by Wilson said he reported the incident to police and to UM football coach Bobby Hauck, but was told nothing could be done.


That would make me nervous if I was a Montana fan. Things that happen in Los Angeles are one thing but when the coach just shrugs his shoulders at an accusation like this it raises a lot of questions.

[The Moody1]

It happens everywhere, its just not publicized as much. Look, it happened at Albany, who has one of the most old-school, no nonsense coaches at any level of football, anywhere. Its probable that it has happened at Dayton more than a few times as well...you probably just weren't privy to it.


Are you really saying that players are murdering people everywhere and we just don't hear about it?

[danefan]

Are you really saying that players are murdering people everywhere and we just don't hear about it?


No, I'm referring to players in trouble in general. I'm sorry if it came off specific to the charges of murder. I meant it to refer to DetriotFlyer's claims that its the coaches fault.


And after going back and reading DetroitFlyer's comments again, it appears as if he is actually recognizing the same point I was trying to make. Sorry if it came off wrong.

[Appaholic]

Because he did not complete the required community service, Freeman has two active warrants for his arrest out of Pima County, Ariz.

On Thursday, Rubino said the Los Angeles County homicide bureau is continuing its investigation into Smoot's death, but did not know for certain how investigators will address Freeman's refusal to cooperate.

I've got an idea....how about the Arizona detectives go arrest him on the outstanding warrants and then hold him for LA detectives who can pick him up as a material witness......and what the hell was he doing on the roster with two outstandng warrants. Makes me wonder what kind of legal issues are on the App St roster....hopefully none, but who would know before something exploded....except in this case, the administration. I feel for you Griz fans....not exactly the way anyone wants to start a season. And it looks like the administration (ie; admissions, compliance officers) failed you as I am sure this is not acceptable standards....it's a disservice to a great school.

[danefan]

How about the Arizona detectives go arrest him on the outstanding warrants and then hold him for LA detectives who can pick him up as a material witness


xnodxxnodxxnodxxnodx

[Proud Griz Man]

That would make me nervous if I was a Montana fan. Things that happen in Los Angeles are one thing but when the coach just shrugs his shoulders at an accusation like this it raises a lot of questions.

Montana fans are concerned. Who shrugs his shoulders? xconfusedx

[griz37]

This Griz fan is pretty embarassed by the whole situation. xsmhx

[trusty]

This Griz fan is pretty embarassed by the whole situation. xsmhx

I don't think you need to be embarassed. It is a terrible thing for the program. As students/Alum I would be coming together and make sure the admin knows the frustration/concerns to get this under control. I would think you guys are already doing that.

[Bobcat in NC]

As I love my home state, all of these incidents just make me want to puke. I'm far from the biggest Griz fan in the world, but to see the Griz faithful being put through the same garbage Cat fans have by irresponsible punks who are (allegedly) willing to throw away the great opportunities they've been given is disgusting.

As for the shrugging of the shoulders comment, was that about the "nothing could be done" quote? I've read and reread that quote and am wondering: Who told the victim that nothing could be done? Was is Coach Hauck or the police? If it was Bobby, Griz Nation should be way beyond pi$$ed. If it was the police, we should all be pi$$ed. Nothing against whatever department was told about the threats and could do nothing, my problem is with arcane laws/procedures that require someone to get hurt before action can be taken. From everything I've heard, it sounds like action should have been taken regarding Wilson quite a while ago.

Keep the faith Griz fans.

[AZGrizFan]

As I love my home state, all of these incidents just make me want to puke. I'm far from the biggest Griz fan in the world, but to see the Griz faithful being put through the same garbage Cat fans have by irresponsible punks who are (allegedly) willing to throw away the great opportunities they've been given is disgusting.

As for the shrugging of the shoulders comment, was that about the "nothing could be done" quote? I've read and reread that quote and am wondering: Who told the victim that nothing could be done? Was is Coach Hauck or the police? If it was Bobby, Griz Nation should be way beyond pi$$ed. If it was the police, we should all be pi$$ed. Nothing against whatever department was told about the threats and could do nothing, my problem is with arcane laws/procedures that require someone to get hurt before action can be taken. From everything I've heard, it sounds like action should have been taken regarding Wilson quite a while ago.

Keep the faith Griz fans.

You too. Sounds like BC Nation is turning in the right direction with their coaching hire....onward and upward! xnodx :)

[FCS Go!]

As I love my home state, all of these incidents just make me want to puke. I'm far from the biggest Griz fan in the world, but to see the Griz faithful being put through the same garbage Cat fans have by irresponsible punks who are (allegedly) willing to throw away the great opportunities they've been given is disgusting.

As for the shrugging of the shoulders comment, was that about the "nothing could be done" quote? I've read and reread that quote and am wondering: Who told the victim that nothing could be done? Was is Coach Hauck or the police? If it was Bobby, Griz Nation should be way beyond pi$$ed. If it was the police, we should all be pi$$ed. Nothing against whatever department was told about the threats and could do nothing, my problem is with arcane laws/procedures that require someone to get hurt before action can be taken. From everything I've heard, it sounds like action should have been taken regarding Wilson quite a while ago.

Keep the faith Griz fans.

There is a relatively coherent discussion of this issue, along with more details, on egriz.com in one of the jimmy wilson threads. Basically the witnesses/victims of the prior incidents refused to cooperate (i.e. testify in court) supposedly for fear of retribution. Rumors/hearsay following---One of the incidents was supposedly started by the victims and devolved into a brawl between 3 or 4 bar patrons and a bunch of football players.---

Basically law enforcement can't do much if the only witnesses in an incident won't make official statements to authorities. If the victim is unwilling to stand up publically then what can the police do? Search someones home without a warrant? Arrest someone without charging them with anything?

Coach Hauck is pretty much in the same boat. He can't sit a player down and accuse him of something based on an anonymous email or phone call. That doesn't play well with the rest of the team. Even if he does get wind of some behavior that is not good for the team (i.e. violating team rules) that would probably be handled privately and Hauck would not comment on that issue in public. Who knows? Maybe Wilson had to run up the stadium steps in full pads a few times the last few years. I'm not trying to defend any lack of action on the part of Missoula PD or the team, just making a point (slowly) that we really don't know all the details and might not ever know them.

[Casey_Orourke]

I've got an idea....how about the Arizona detectives go arrest him on the outstanding warrants and then hold him for LA detectives who can pick him up as a material witness......and what the hell was he doing on the roster with two outstandng warrants. Makes me wonder what kind of legal issues are on the App St roster....hopefully none, but who would know before something exploded....except in this case, the administration. I feel for you Griz fans....not exactly the way anyone wants to start a season. And it looks like the administration (ie; admissions, compliance officers) failed you as I am sure this is not acceptable standards....it's a disservice to a great school.

I doubt Freeman even told the school administration about the outstanding warrants and as far as I know the college admissions process does not include a criminal background check xreadx . It is not uncommon for the authorities in one state to tell another about any outstanding warrents unless there is an official inquiry from law enforcement xrulesx . So as long as Freeman stayed out of trouble nobody was the wiser xshhhx.

[GreatAppSt]

Basically law enforcement can't do much if the only witnesses in an incident won't make official statements to authorities. If the victim is unwilling to stand up publically then what can the police do? Search someones home without a warrant? Arrest someone without charging them with anything?



In this case it is kind of hard for the victim to stand up for himself since hes buried beneath six feet of earth.xsmhx

He could be held in contemp once the trial begins for a long time.xthumbsupx

IMHO By not cooperating with the investigators he has failed in his civic duties, he should not be booted from the team by the coach. He should be booted from the school by the Prez.xthumbsupx xthumbsupx

[Kill'em]

What is going on with these kids? Did they watch Adam Jones' video on how to be thugs? This is going on all over the country.

[PantherRob82]

This is part of the reason my uncle gave up his tickets. He's tired of Hauck's crap. I saw that last year Hauck told fans if they didn't like things to leave. Great PR. xrolleyesx

[Ronbo]

That was after there was booing for not beating a team bad enough. Hauck said he'd prefer the booing fans stay home and free up the seats for fans that wouldn't do that. I agree. Sounds like your Uncle is one of the booing neggies.

[grayghost06]

For the good of your great institution, you gotta cut this guy loose. We at JMU have a guy who has been involved with shootings ( though he was the victim) and rape allegations and if the allegations are true, I would hope Madison cuts ties and yanks his scholarship. Some guys like Pacman Jones, Marcus Vick etc have been brought up in an environment that does not seem to react harshly against using guns and raping women. With certain people, there's always smoke and there is always the resulting fire. Sometimes in life there are people who cannot be helped or changed. I somehow have managed to live 40 years without raping a woman or pulling a gun on someone. The law would have been the third line of defense if I had committed such unacceptable behavior. Pressure from family and neighbors would have been brought to bear to get my act together.

[dbackjon]

If Montana/Hauck have any sense of propriety, they cut Quentin loose ASAP. Either that, or when they land in Phoenix for the the NAU game, make a slight detour on the way up to Flagstaff to drop him off at the Pima County line.

[Tribe4SF]

If Freeman is still on the squad this Fall, I doubt he'll want to make the trip to Arizona with all the publicity. Arizona authorities will be prepared to arrest him on arrival.

UM President needs to take control of this whole situation.

[PantherRob82]

That was after there was booing for not beating a team bad enough. Hauck said he'd prefer the booing fans stay home and free up the seats for fans that wouldn't do that. I agree. Sounds like your Uncle is one of the booing neggies.

No, he's actually very positive. He doesn't like Hauck making Montana into transfer U. The quote I was reffering to was people questioning the playcalling and QB.

[Ronbo]

Joe Glenn had about the same number of transfers that Hauck has carried. Hauck inherited about 6 guys that Glenn had brought in. Ochs (Colorado, Walden (Oregon), Justin Green(San Diego State), O-Lineman Green (Utah State), Disney (JC), Hancock (Kansas State I think), Dellaselva (Conneticut).

We have Quinn, Horn, Allen, Chambers, Russum, Freeman, Bradshaw, and Coleman. That's 8. PSU, NAU, Sac. State, ISU, and Weber all bring in 11-15 transfers (JC and FBS) every season. PSU generally carries 20-25 transfers.

[Sawtooth]

PSU, NAU, Sac. State, ISU, and Weber all bring in 11-15 transfers (JC and FBS) every season. PSU generally carries 20-25 transfers.


Not a big deal, but we don't bring in that number of transfers every year. This year's recruiting class includes 6 JC transfers. Last year (Coach Larry Lewis' last year) we had 8 (JC & FBS) transfers. The year before (2005) included 6 transfers. I may be off by a transfer or two either way, but still no way near the 11-15 yearly amount you quote...

[Ronbo]

Sorry Sawtooth. The other schools do. I heard Weber has 11 JC's and 3-4 FBS transfers this year. NAU and PSU always bring in a lot too. We bring in 2-3 a year and this guy says he gave up his season tickets because Montana is becoming transfer U. Here is the last 3 years.

2005 - Allen, Russum
2006 - Swogger, Chambers, Freeman, Coleman, Bradshaw, Horn
2007 - Quinn

That's an average of 3 transfers per year.

[PantherRob82]

Sorry Sawtooth. The other schools do. I heard Weber has 11 JC's and 3-4 FBS transfers this year. NAU and PSU always bring in a lot too. We bring in 2-3 a year and this guy says he gave up his season tickets because Montana is becoming transfer U. Here is the last 3 years.

2005 - Allen, Russum
2006 - Swogger, Chambers, Freeman, Coleman, Bradshaw, Horn
2007 - Quinn

That's an average of 3 transfers per year.

It wasn't the number of transfers as much as it was the attitude that any transfer should be brought in because they are better and should get playing time right away. I bet at least half of most Griz fans think Cole would've been better at QB last year.

[GOKATS]

It wasn't the number of transfers as much as it was the attitude that any transfer should be brought in because they are better and should get playing time right away. I bet at least half of most Griz fans think Cole would've been better at QB last year.

I'm far from being a griz fan, but even I couldn't agree with with that statement. I don't think Swogger was all that great, but if Berquist were the better QB he would've been playing. The griz have a lot of potential this year, but the QB slot is yet to be proven.

[Ronbo]

It wasn't the number of transfers as much as it was the attitude that any transfer should be brought in because they are better and should get playing time right away. I bet at least half of most Griz fans think Cole would've been better at QB last year.


I agree with the statement. Cole was a steadier QB and had a 60% completion average vs. Swoggers 52%. He could rip off 10-15 yard scrambles when pressured too. I believe and so do many Griz fans that Swogger was promised the starting job to get him to Montana and Hauck would not renege on the offer even after they found out how innaccurate and easy to sack he was.

[PantherRob82]

I agree with the statement. Cole was a steadier QB and had a 60% completion average vs. Swoggers 52%. He could rip off 10-15 yard scrambles when pressured too. I believe and so do many Griz fans that Swogger was promised the starting job to get him to Montana and Hauck would not renege on the offer even after they found out how innaccurate and easy to sack he was.

See, now we're getting to the issue at hand. not the transfer, promises to start, even if they aren't as good as the players they already have. If my memory serves me correctly, most of the great Griz teams were lead by the home grown boys.

[CrunchGriz]

See, now we're getting to the issue at hand. not the transfer, promises to start, even if they aren't as good as the players they already have. If my memory serves me correctly, most of the great Griz teams were lead by the home grown boys.

Just for the last 14 years (all playoff teams):

Two national champion teams - two quarterbacks from Montana recruited in high school and brought in as freshmen.

Three national runners-up - two I-A transfer QBs, one QB from Hawai'i recruited in high school and brought in as a freshman.

Two semi-finalists - one quarterback from Montana recruited in high school and brought in as a freshman (with relief from a QB recruited out of high school out of Oregon), one I-A transfer QB

One quarterfinalist - one quarterback from Montana recruited in high school and brought in as a freshman

Six one-and-dones - one quarterback from Montana recruited in high school and brought in as a freshman, two games with a QB from Hawai'i recruited in high school and brought in as a freshman, two I-A transfer QBs, and one quarterback from California recruited in high school and brought in as a freshman.

Total I-AA playoff records (of starting Montana QBs):
11-2 QBs recruited out of high school from Montana
3-3 QB recruited out of high school from Hawai'i
8-5 I-A transfer QBs
0-1 QB recruited out of high school from California
0-1 QB recruited out of high school from Oregon


So, in a long answer to your short question, yeah, the Griz have had their best luck with Montana-bred QBs.

[UncleSam]

I agree with the statement. Cole was a steadier QB and had a 60% completion average vs. Swoggers 52%. He could rip off 10-15 yard scrambles when pressured too. I believe and so do many Griz fans that Swogger was promised the starting job to get him to Montana and Hauck would not renege on the offer even after they found out how innaccurate and easy to sack he was.


I seriously doubt that a coach would promise a transfer a 'starting job', however I don't doubt that coaches do promise potential transfers that the starting job would be theirs to lose.

[VictorG]

I bet at least half of most Griz fans think Cole would've been better at QB last year.

As a side note, our two power running backs Hillard and Coleman were hurt last year and both received a red shirt for that year. Compound this with a young OL (especially early in the season) and what that translated into was 3rd and 2 becoming a passing down because we had no power backs left, just the quicker change of pace type.

Now throw in a questionable offensive call on 3rd down now and again (:)) and 3rd and 2 all to often became a 15 to 25 yard side line pattern! This actually worked sometimes when the defense was playing softer because of field position, but the lack of a power running game absolutely killed the Griz in the red zone when the defense would stiffen because there was less field to cover. IMO we were terrible in the red zone last year.

IMO, had either one of our power backs been able to play, our offense would have taken on a bit of a different look and been a bit more successful.

But to answer the statement about Cole being more successful last year, I don't think he would have been in a "passing the ball sense". I still think he needed another year to mature, learn and get stronger. Plus the way our OL blocked on passing downs early in the season, he may not have even survived the year.

However, he would have brought more running ability to the QB position and we most likely would have seen more designed plays for the QB to run and we certainly would have seen more option plays. This versatility may have made the offense more successful overall, but I still think we had the the correct QB starting. What the heck! He lead us to the semi-finals!!!! (granted the trip was painfull but he did it!)xnodx

[PantherRob82]

I'm far from being a griz fan, but even I couldn't agree with with that statement. I don't think Swogger was all that great, but if Berquist were the better QB he would've been playing. The griz have a lot of potential this year, but the QB slot is yet to be proven.

Did you watch either of them play? Berquist had been there, knew the offense and was consistent. Swogger consistently held on to the ball too long, couldn't scramble and overthrew recievers.

[PantherRob82]

Just for the last 14 years (all playoff teams):

Total I-AA playoff records (of starting Montana QBs):
11-2 QBs recruited out of high school from Montana
3-3 QB recruited out of high school from Hawai'i
8-5 I-A transfer QBs
0-1 QB recruited out of high school from California
0-1 QB recruited out of high school from Oregon


So, in a long answer to your short question, yeah, the Griz have had their best luck with Montana-bred QBs.

Wow. Thanks for those stats. That's what I was thinking, but would've never had time to pull that together. xthumbsupx

[laxVik]

Getting ugly up there...

http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2007/06/24/sports/sports02.txt

Particularly disturbing...


“When members of the community and Missoula Chief of Police Rusty Wickman voiced concerns to the UM coaching staff about inappropriate conduct by Wilson, what was done? Was Wilson disciplined, offered counseling, referred to a mentor? Did anyone speak to Wilson at all?”


“That Freeman, who has two active warrants for his arrest in Arizona, was allowed to join the UM football team last fall is mind-boggling. One call from a reporter to the sports information department at Arizona was all it took to reveal Freeman's criminal past. Certainly a Griz coach must've made a similar call to a member of the Arizona coaching staff.”

[JALMOND]

We do bring in a lot of transfers at PSU, but we never have any major problems with them as far as cooperating with authorities (or even committing a major crime). We leave that to the Blazers, Ducks and Beavers.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

Hauck should get the axe.

He is a mediocre coach at best, his OC is the worst one in the USA. The guy doesn't get how to approach the people that pay his salary and his PR makes you want to punch the little midget in his hook nose.

Bobby Hauck took this job and sent the program to the poor house. This year can't be good for moral and next year we are in trouble because we lose 1/2 of the team to graduating and legal problems.

It is sad what he has done in such a short time to our program, all this PR he is doing is great for recruiting. If the cops come up to Montana to get Freeman, I hope they take Hauck and Phenept with them. they are just as guilty.

[JALMOND]

Just a thought, with all the problems surfacing within the football programs at Montana's two major institutions, and football being a big part of both universities, could the fault lie ultimately with the state board of regents? Just trying to connect the issues at both UM and MSU. It seems a little strange to me that major issues within both programs could occur in just a little over a month.

[dbackjon]

If the info on Freeman was so readily available, then a coach should have known. Any coaches that knew that information should be immediately fired, if the Griz have any decency at all.

[CopperCat]

Hauck should get the axe.

He is a mediocre coach at best, his OC is the worst one in the USA. The guy doesn't get how to approach the people that pay his salary and his PR makes you want to punch the little midget in his hook nose.

Bobby Hauck took this job and sent the program to the poor house. This year can't be good for moral and next year we are in trouble because we lose 1/2 of the team to graduating and legal problems.

It is sad what he has done in such a short time to our program, all this PR he is doing is great for recruiting. If the cops come up to Montana to get Freeman, I hope they take Hauck and Phenept with them. they are just as guilty.

Hauck hasn't done all that bad at UM. Even with an o-k QB they went to the semis last year, extending the playoff streak to 14 years. Somehow I think Hauck has done something right at UM. And your OC is definitely not the worst, there are WAY worse out there, trust me.

You have basically jumped off the deep end. I read this stuff and kinda laughed, because it really isn't as bad for the Griz as you think it is. If Hauck gets the axe, then somebody out there with bigger shoes than Hauck will come in and do a great job for the Griz. I've never thought Hauck was as good as Glenn, but he hasn't been as bad as some people would like to think. Don't go and kill yourself yet. It isn't over.

[YoUDeeMan]

Getting ugly up there...

http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2007/06/24/sports/sports02.txt

Particularly disturbing...

The quotes you provided from the article are disturbing, but other info from the article is odd also.

"Perhaps the athletic department needs to take a closer look at the Division I-A drop-downs it accepts. Currently on the roster are running back Greg Coleman, who was found guilty of assaulting a police officer in Iowa City, Iowa, in 2003 while on the Iowa State football team; and offensive lineman J.D. Quinn, who was kicked off the Oklahoma football team for accepting cash for hours he never worked at an auto dealership."

As with Freeman, UM took these guys as players even though they already had documented issues with the law and/or ethics? xeekx xconfusedx xeyebrowx

Were there no background checks?

[Mr. C]

Quinn was part of the same deal that got Sam Houston State's Rhett Boomar in trouble. I am not sure, however, you can lump players like Quinn with those who have felony backgrounds. I am all in favor to giving players like Quinn and Boomar second chances. Not so sure about folks who have backgrounds with violence in them.

[CopperCat]

Quinn was part of the same deal that got Sam Houston State's Rhett Boomar in trouble. I am not sure, however, you can lump players like Quinn with those who have felony backgrounds. I am all in favor to giving players like Quinn and Boomar second chances. Not so sure about folks who have backgrounds with violence in them.

Coleman shouldn't even be playing!!!!! I didn't know that about him.

I agree with Mr. C on this one that maybe Quinn doesn't deserve to be put in the same category. He made a mistake, but it isn't one that really merits being kicked off the team IMO.

The coaches at UM have been flying under the radar the entire time it seems. Their recruits seem to have a dark side that was somewhat apparent, but somehow got ignored?xeyebrowx It is certainly getting interesting in Montana.

[Ronbo]

The Athletic Dept. took Coleman on the recommendation of the Iowa State coaches. He had the charge against him while he was in HS, he wasn't on the ISU team. He was running out of a bar he wasn't supposed to be in and ran into a cop, claimed it was accidental, he was just trying to get out and not get caught, but he was charged for it.

[mtgrizfan4life]

U of Arizona xfr, Quentin Freeman has been kicked off the team. Apparently he was arrested for disorderly conduct over the weekend. Hauck wasted no time on removing him. Wonder if there is more to the rumors of him being an eyewitness to the Wilson shooting recently? The door has been shut on Freeman and Wilson. The door opens for the likes of Quentin Jackson, Chris Clark, Brandon Dwyer, Tim Parks, Jermaine Olson, DeAngelo Starr, Jeremny Pate, and Houston Stockton (John's son). Of that group I am confident Jackson will be a stud, Clark, Parks,and one other will prove themselves. Also Van Cooper is part of a crowded safety rotation, he is fast enough to play CB too. I think the GRIZ will do just fine despite of recent happenings.

[Ronbo]

U of Arizona xfr, Quentin Freeman has been kicked off the team. Apparently he was arrested for disorderly conduct over the weekend. Hauck wasted no time on removing him. Wonder if there is more to the rumors of him being an eyewitness to the Wilson shooting recently? The door has been shut on Freeman and Wilson. The door opens for the likes of Quentin Jackson, Chris Clark, Brandon Dwyer, Tim Parks, Jermaine Olson, DeAngelo Starr, Jeremny Pate, and Houston Stockton (John's son). Of that group I am confident Jackson will be a stud, Clark, Parks,and one other will prove themselves. Also Van Cooper is part of a crowded safety rotation, he is fast enough to play CB too. I think the GRIZ will do just fine despite of recent happenings.

Chris Clark was our starter in 2004. Got hurt about 8 games into the season and didn't make grades in 2005. He worked hard at his grades and got back last season but Wilson and Harris were firmly entrenched at the starting CB spots. Chris still saw a lot of action with the way the Defense platoons. Cooper runs in the 4.4's. Wonder if they would consider him at corner? Clark runs in the 4.4's too.

[NoCoDanny]

Montana fans are concerned. Who shrugs his shoulders? xconfusedx

What I meant was from what I gather from the story a citizen went to Hauck and told him hey, you're football player stuck a gun in my face to which Hauck told him "nothing could be done" which to me is akin to shrugging his shoulders.

[cats2506]

http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2007/06/25/news/top/news01.txt

Freeman is cut after a dc arrest over the weekend

[YoUDeeMan]

U of Arizona xfr, Quentin Freeman has been kicked off the team. Apparently he was arrested for disorderly conduct over the weekend. Hauck wasted no time on removing him.

Wow, this guy doesn't sound bright. Under suspicion for being involved in a muder, being questioned by police, and he gets into more trouble? xoopsx

At least he made it an easy decision for the coach. xnodx

[AZGrizFan]

So, who's our third string cornerback? xlolx xlolx xlolx

[Casey_Orourke]

Wow, this guy doesn't sound bright. Under suspicion for being involved in a muder, being questioned by police, and he gets into more trouble? xoopsx

At least he made it an easy decision for the coach. xnodx


There are some poeple who just have the proclivity for getting into trouble. You can warn them or promise dire consequences, but when they are caught up in circumstances they invaribly make the wrong decision.

Even though I am a PSU alum and would love to see my Vikings defeat the Grizzlies, I don't want it to happen like this. I want Montana and PSU to put the best teams possible on the field, play the game and let the best team win. I know this will happen at gametime, but right now you can't help but to feel demoralized.

I can sympathize with Griz fans in this. To see a young man just throw away the chance a college education would give him is a tragedy. The fact that this was a second chance for him makes it doubly so.

[Mr. C]

Got to love this quote from AD Jim O'Day:

"These are serious matters, and it is very disturbing,” UM Athletic Director Jim O'Day said in the statement. “At this point, we are following a zero-tolerance policy, and Qwenton made a bad error in judgment. To that end, he will no longer be a member of the Montana Grizzly football team.”

So they were not following a zero tolerance policy when Freeman came to the program with two outstanding warrants?

[srgrizizen]

Apart from the underlying problems, is anyone else dismayed at the incredibly inept PR concerning all this? A continuing run of "no comment," refusing to return media phone calls, and (apparently) instructing team members not to cooperate with L.A. police is outrageous. The coach, the AD and the president of UM, while respecting all legitimate privacy rights of all involved, should be out front in expressing their regrets and plans for preventing such incidents in the future. Instead, they come off as adherents of the Dick Cheney school of public relations. They are making the situation much worse throught their ineptitude.

[Col Hogan]

Apart from the underlying problems, is anyone else dismayed at the incredibly inept PR concerning all this? A continuing run of "no comment," refusing to return media phone calls, and (apparently) instructing team members not to cooperate with L.A. police is outrageous. The coach, the AD and the president of UM, while respecting all legitimate privacy rights of all involved, should be out front in expressing their regrets and plans for preventing such incidents in the future. Instead, they come off as adherents of the Dick Cheney school of public relations. They are making the situation much worse throught their ineptitude.

Unfortunately, we don't train most executives how to do crisis management PR. Usually, the "hunker-down" mentality takes over...

That, in turn, leads to the perception (right or wrong) that they have something to hide, or are protecting the potential wrong-doer...

I just hope UM get's it's PR act together...because a little crisis management can go a long way in helping repair the perception you feel is developing around this situation...

[SeattleGriz]

Unfortunately, we don't train most executives how to do crisis management PR. Usually, the "hunker-down" mentality takes over...

That, in turn, leads to the perception (right or wrong) that they have something to hide, or are protecting the potential wrong-doer...

I just hope UM get's it's PR act together...because a little crisis management can go a long way in helping repair the perception you feel is developing around this situation...

I would rather them be "mum" than open mouth and insert foot, but I do agree with what you are saying DJP.

[Tailbone]

Got to love this quote from Mr. C:


Got to love this quote from AD Jim O'Day:

"These are serious matters, and it is very disturbing,” UM Athletic Director Jim O'Day said in the statement. “At this point, we are following a zero-tolerance policy, and Qwenton made a bad error in judgment. To that end, he will no longer be a member of the Montana Grizzly football team.”

So they were not following a zero tolerance policy when Freeman came to the program with two outstanding warrants?

I interpreted O'day's quote to mean that, due to recent events, there is now a zero tolerance policy for all athletes. It is not unreasonable to assume that, for those athletes already receiving a second chance (Quinn, Freeman, etc.) a short leash policy was already in effect, but for those with no history of mistakes, there might be allowances made for the kinds of mistakes all kids might make (which is now no longer the case). Thus, Freeman is gone.

I hope Mr. C is able to be more objective in his new role (should it come to pass) as a "professional" sportswriter lest he alienate the "inside sources" he will need to provide insightful stories rather than repackage rumors gathered from messageboards.

C'mon Mr. C, time to grow-up.

[Mr. C]

Boy aren't we sensitive. Grow up from what? If you think Freeman should have EVER been allowed into your program, you have serious problems. Who is being anything less than objective about what is going on here? Certainly not me. Your own Missoula newspaper has been all over the Montana program for the way the people in command have handled this whole thing, including questioning why no one did the background checks to find out that this kid had outstanding warrants against him. O'Day should have had a zero tolerance policy from day one for letting someone like Freeman into the program.

[Grizlaw]

Apart from the underlying problems, is anyone else dismayed at the incredibly inept PR concerning all this? A continuing run of "no comment," refusing to return media phone calls, and (apparently) instructing team members not to cooperate with L.A. police is outrageous.

I basically agree with what you're saying, but do we actually know that Hauck or anyone at UM actually told players not to cooperate with the police? I haven't read that anywhere -- I have read that players were told not to talk to the press, which seems perfectly reasonable, but I haven't heard that the administration actually told them not to cooperate with law enforcement.

[Tailbone]

...... If you think Freeman should have EVER been allowed into your program, you have serious problems. ...... why no one did the background checks to find out that this kid had outstanding warrants against him. .............O'Day should have had a zero tolerance policy from day one for letting someone like Freeman into the program.

In April 2006, Freeman was arrested for assault and criminal trespassing, both misdemeanors, by the University of Arizona Police Department.

..... Freeman was convicted on the assault charge in Pima County Consolidated Justice Courts and was subsequently sentenced to a diversion program under the University of Arizona's supervision.

Yeah, Freeman is undoubtedly the only football player in America that can be, or has ever been, accused of misdemeanor assault. xrolleyesx

Yeah, No athelete has ever been allowed into any other school in America without a complete background check. xrolleyesx

Freeman's crime was so heinous that he was given community service as a punishment.....even Paris Hilton had to go to jail. xeekx

FWIW: I'm allowed a more biased attitude......I don't aspire to be, nor do I pass myself off as, a "professional" journalist. xoopsx



Where's the "Homer" Simpson emoticon?

[Mr. C]

Go ahead and allow people like Freeman into your program. Look what it got you. Maybe if folks had been a little more careful, they could have avoided the problems with this character.

[Tailbone]

Go ahead and allow people like Freeman into your program. Look what it got you. Maybe if folks had been a little more careful, they could have avoided the problems with this character.

I'm not defending Freeman or the program.
Did you miss the point?

[CopperCat]

Go ahead and allow people like Freeman into your program. Look what it got you. Maybe if folks had been a little more careful, they could have avoided the problems with this character.

xnodx xthumbsupx

[PantherRob82]

Apart from the underlying problems, is anyone else dismayed at the incredibly inept PR concerning all this?

inept PR is Hauck's style.

[Kill'em]

Let me ask y'all this, especially the Montana folks, how much of the blame goes where?

[FCS Go!]

Let me ask y'all this, especially the Montana folks, how much of the blame goes where?

We don't know enough to legitimately blame anyone at this point. All we have is rumor and speculation.

[Blazerbird]

As crazy as the situation seems from afar, imagine what your reaction would be were it in your town at your school. Murder charges, warrants, and credible stories from police of frightened victims too scared to press charges in Cheney seems crazy to me, but who knows? I do know I'd rather cheer for kids and coaches who try their best and lose, rather than a team laced with troublemakers that can win. The thousands of rightfully proud Griz fans don't deserve this, and certainly don't condone this alleged behavior. Best wishes for a swift and fair punishment to those who deserve it, and to Griz fans for a exciting season.

[JALMOND]

As crazy as the situation seems from afar, imagine what your reaction would be were it in your town at your school. Murder charges, warrants, and credible stories from police of frightened victims too scared to press charges in Cheney seems crazy to me, but who knows? I do know I'd rather cheer for kids and coaches who try their best and lose, rather than a team laced with troublemakers that can win. The thousands of rightfully proud Griz fans don't deserve this, and certainly don't condone this alleged behavior. Best wishes for a swift and fair punishment to those who deserve it, and to Griz fans for a exciting season.

Cheney police are too busy chasing after Gonzaga centers and their psychadelic mushrooms. :D

I think you hit the nail on the head. Win at any cost and you're bound to pay the price. Gonzaga found out last year. Montana and Montana State found out recently. Still, one is naive in their thinking if they think this cannot show up on their campus. I like to think we bring in good people to the Portland State program, yet this too could happen here.

[Kill'em]

As crazy as the situation seems from afar, imagine what your reaction would be were it in your town at your school. Murder charges, warrants, and credible stories from police of frightened victims too scared to press charges in Cheney seems crazy to me, but who knows? I do know I'd rather cheer for kids and coaches who try their best and lose, rather than a team laced with troublemakers that can win. The thousands of rightfully proud Griz fans don't deserve this, and certainly don't condone this alleged behavior. Best wishes for a swift and fair punishment to those who deserve it, and to Griz fans for a exciting season.

I can relate. xnonono2x

[cats2506]

OK here is my take on the whole MSU / UM crime thing.

Both programs have to recruit outside our area and are always on the lookout for talent from FBS that may be able to transfer in and give us a boost in talent. Sometimes the reason those players are transfers is because they were discipline problems. I’m sure that the recruiters know about it and let them know that they are getting a second chance and the players say that they want the second chance and will be good. If you do this enough there are bound to be a few that stray again.

NOW I think you could say this about any FCS school, these types of problems can and will happen to any school.

At MSU Kramer had to bring a program back from almost nothing, he did that and got more fans excited again but at a cost. I hated to see him fired but as I look at it now it was really for the best and I am probably more excited about cat football now than I have been for a few years, I was sick of hearing about the various problems and I have a 9 yr old that is a diehard cat fan. The only thing that could be worse is if he was wearing dark pink.

At UM they have seen what has happened at MSU and I am sure that they will do everything they can to prevent more problems. I believe that more of their problems have been contained within the athletic department and that recent events have shown that the administration and the community will not tolerate it. They don’t want what has been happening in Bozeman to happen in Zoola. I think they will get it under control now.

It has been an embarrassment what has happened in Montana this year (3-4 years in Bozeman) but I believe that both programs will be better for it. UM will be rebuilding after this year, and Ash will begin building his program this year.

[Tailbone]

Apparently, no Big Sky schools conduct background checks on incoming athletes.
The reason cited most often is the cost associated with such checks.
This is a policy that may change for some, if not all, BSC schools.

I wonder what the policy is elsewhere.
Does your school routinely conduct background checks on incoming athletes?

[DetroitFlyer]

I will be the first to admit that no school is perfect, or will ever be perfect. But, when is the last time you heard about something like this at a PFL school, Ivy League school or Patriot League school? Not very often.... Why? Because there are other forces at work in these programs that are not at work as strongly in the world of FCS in general. A PL school cannot admit a kid because they want to win at any cost.... All players have to meet the PL criteria, which seems to be a good filter for weeding out the potential bad eggs.... The same holds true for the PFL and Ivy League. As I said, no team or league is ever going to be perfect. When you have 100+ kids on a team, a bad apple here or there is bound to occur. I just think that some programs have better filters than others, and the "win at any cost" pressure is not as great year in and year out.... It really begs the questions as to what defines a successful FCS program? Is App State more successful than Dayton? Is some ways yes, in some ways no, but both are an important part of the overall FCS equation. I am all for giving young men every opportunity to make a success of their lives. In doing so, sometimes, kids are going to fail.... When they do, schools need to react accordingly and work to ensure that it does not happen again. The Ivy / PL / PFL model is not good for all kids and all schools relative to football, just like there are reasons that Harvard and Montana State are not for all kids.... The other factor I see is the amazing amount of information available. Odds are, 20 years ago, I would not even know about the problems in the state of Montana's FCS football teams. Now, as soon as something is reported anywhere, it is on the messageboard circuit, and spreads like wildfire. Maybe good, maybe bad, but it is certainly true. I do think that every head coach and AD should be trained as to how to respond correctly to these types of situations. At the very least, a Public Relations VP should be skilled in responding to these issues, at every Division I school in the land. The bumbling and stumbling in responding in the information age is a big part of the overall problem. Rambling Complete!!

[MR. CHICKEN]

WOW FLYERAH........................NICE POST SIR!.........ER...UH...UM.....AWQ!

[Montanan]

Apparently, no Big Sky schools conduct background checks on incoming athletes.
The reason cited most often is the cost associated with such checks.
This is a policy that may change for some, if not all, BSC schools.

I wonder what the policy is elsewhere.
Does your school routinely conduct background checks on incoming athletes?


as reported on 60 minutes, last year or the year before, many police departments (throughout the US) didn't do background checks on new recruits. hopefully it becomes policy in a number of areas.

[cats2506]

Does your school routinely conduct background checks on incoming athletes?

I think this could be asked of all schools, I honestly dont know what the policy is but I doubt that the large majority of schools have a zero tolerence policy.

If a player has FBS talent and has misdemeanor convictions and says he will change his ways to come play ball at a FCS school, I am willing to bet that 90% of the programs will take them if they feel he is sincere. It comes down to recruters judging character. Dont tell me that there are no transfer down players in any other schools with history that would be BS.

[Tailbone]

I will be the first to admit that no school is perfect, or will ever be perfect. But, when is the last time you heard about something like this at a PFL school, Ivy League school or Patriot League school? Not very often.... Why? Because there are other forces at work in these programs that are not at work as strongly in the world of FCS in general. A PL school cannot admit a kid because they want to win at any cost.... All players have to meet the PL criteria, which seems to be a good filter for weeding out the potential bad eggs.... The same holds true for the PFL and Ivy League. ..........

http://www.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/stories/070806aag.html
http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/18224
http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2006/04/06/opinion/15094.shtml
http://sociology.department.tcnj.edu/faculty/MonmouthUnversity.html


I don't think it is either fair or realistic to assume that the problems currently being experienced in Montana universities is a result of a "win at any cost" attitude. I believe the prevailing attitude (at most universities) is one of:

"you are not in jail so you probably don't have serious crimes about which we need be aware". "If you are here, taking advantage of a second chance, be advised we will not accept nor condone the types of behavior that lead to your being here". "make the most of this opportunity. stay out of trouble, conduct yourself in a manner that we can both be proud of."

Unfortunately, ***** happens. Folks don't always learn their lessons, some continue to make mistakes.

It doesn't just happen to athletes.
It can be professors, administrators, or aspiring authors (journalists)
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/vtech.shooting/index.html

Can we, should we, check them all?

[laxVik]

So the newspaper finds out Freeman has two outstanding warrants simply by calling UA coaches but no coaches from UM ask at all about his character or demeanor before allowing him to transfer?

[Ronbo]

I guess Montana and MSU could go to an attitude of "we don't care if we win as long as all our kids are squeaky clean and good students". Does any fan really accept 5-6 seasons for that? Maybe we could stop recruiting African American kids from the big cities? That would probably solve the problem but it would rob a lot of deserving and good African American city kids of the experience and education. If Montana went to all Montana kids that are good students we would be lucky to go 5-6 every year, is that what everyone wants? It would solve the problems.

[cats2506]

So the newspaper finds out Freeman has two outstanding warrants simply by calling UA coaches but no coaches from UM ask at all about his character or demeanor before allowing him to transfer?


What I am saying is that I think the Montana programs will be a lot stricter after this, You other guys with the "holier than thou" attidude need to come off your high horse. It wasnt long ago that I was hearing the same talk from UM about what a bunch of thugs played for the Cats and how the UM program was so clean and that BH would never let any kids like that into the Griz program.

I am sure that UM coaches investigate the character of every potential player, Its all a grey area, where is the line? can you predict the future of every player?

[laxVik]

can you predict the future of every player?No, but you can certainly find out his past with one phone call to his former coaches. Players transfer for a reason. I simple don't see all of the onus in this case on the player.

[cats2506]

No, but you can certainly find out his past with one phone call to his former coaches. Players transfer for a reason. I simple don't see all of the onus in this case on the player.

I bet they knew his past, I bet he said that he was taking care of it, I bet they felt that they could improve his character and get a good player out of it, The problem was they didnt continue to monitor it after he became part of the team. There are many examples of giving second chances that have been successfull.

I think the coaches are responsible but also think that you need to realize that a misdemeanor arrest, conviction and failure to do community service is not neccessarly the end of a player.

[NoCoDanny]

The funny thing about any of these scandals is nobody says "oh it was an isolated incident" "don't tar the whole program with one brush" "this happens at every other school" etc. until it's their school that has the problem.

When it's the other guy's school with the problem all the jackals come out of the wood work to take a shot at you.

That's one thing I've learned the last few years, when you have problems there's no sympathy, everyone just enjoys taking their shots. Then when there is a problem at their school they get all philosophical.

[Kill'em]

I think schools looking at kids, whether it be out of highschool or transfers need to do a better job of checking into their past. Often they are worthy of a second chance, with the understanding they must follow the rules and "Do Right." Some, like the ones who forfeited the honor of playing for Georgia Southern there will be no second chance. These guys will see jail time. These are the ones no program should want.

[OB55]

Well there is a fine balance between having a very clean local program, and win at all costs.

A lot of what successful programs have in common is consistency. Montana has had that, but as the pressure mounts to always make the finals and win most of them, you get more questionable transfers and recruits in general. The thing that impressed me so much a few years ago with the Don Read, and Joe Glenn tenures, was bringing mostly local kids all the way through the program and looking for them to be big contributors in their fourth and fifth seasons.

Say what you want about number of transfers this year versus year what ever, it is not just the transfer, it is who they are. xcoolx

The MSU situation is entirely different, he (Kramer) was hired to do just exactly what he did, and then was fired for doing what he was hired for, by the same people. They have a ways to go.
xcoffeex

[Ronbo]

Read brought in 2-3 transfers a year, Glenn brought in 2-3 transfers a year, and Hauck has brought in just 2-3 transfers a year. Montana has had a mix of Colorado, Idaho, Oregon, Washington, California, and Montana kids all the way back to Read. Montana kids on average number around 50 and always has. Our starting 22 is usually about 50% Montana kids. It's been pretty close to the same Read through Hauck.

[OB55]

Well there is a fine balance between having a very clean local program, and win at all costs.

A lot of what successful programs have in common is consistency. Montana has had that, but as the pressure mounts to always make the finals and win most of them, you get more questionable transfers and recruits in general. The thing that impressed me so much a few years ago with the Don Read, and Joe Glenn tenures, was bringing mostly local kids all the way through the program and looking for them to be big contributors in their fourth and fifth seasons.

Say what you want about number of transfers this year versus year what ever, it is not just the transfer, it is who they are. xcoolx

The MSU situation is entirely different, he (Kramer) was hired to do just exactly what he did, and then was fired for doing what he was hired for, by the same people. They have a ways to go.
xcoffeex


Read brought in 2-3 transfers a year, Glenn brought in 2-3 transfers a year, and Hauck has brought in just 2-3 transfers a year. Montana has had a mix of Colorado, Idaho, Oregon, Washington, California, and Montana kids all the way back to Read. Montana kids on average number around 50 and always has. Our starting 22 is usually about 50% Montana kids. It's been pretty close to the same Read through Hauck.

My point was, the emphasis on WHO they are, not the number.