LFN: Non-Scholly Direction, What Does It Mean?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You just knew I was going to weigh in more on this, didn't you?

The primary focus is the MAAC remnants, but also some talk about the PFL as well... and the Atlantic Sun. xeyebrowx

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

[DetroitFlyer]

Travel costs, I believe, are not that big of an issue as compared to scholarships.... Let's say that a plane trip for the football team is about $60,000. So, if you make six plane trips a year, you are talking about $360,000. If you assume that a scholarship at an Iona, LaSalle or Marist is worth $35,000 per year or so, you are still only talking about 10 to 11 scholarships.... MUCH more cost effective than trying to fund 30 scholarships for NEC football, and much, much more cost effective that trying to match PL grants or 63 schollies. OK, suppose you must travel with first class accommodations.... Double the cost for each trip. You are still only looking at about 20 to 22 scholarships expense wise. Maybe enough to be competitive in the NEC, but still not enough to match the PL or the 63 scholly conferences.

Now I understand that Iona, Marist and LaSalle have not incurred these types of travel costs in the past, but at the moment, traveling in the PFL seems to still be the most cost effective option out there....

[Player19]

As I have stated before, remember any scholarship must be matched on the women's side. That being said, the PFL looks like the solution.

[BullsFanatic]

Just a reminder on the ASun...Gardner Webb is moving in all sports to the Big South, leaving the ASun with 11 members (2 with football). Also, Kennesaw State is considering non-scholarship football as well, so the number could increase to 4 with them and Lipscomb. The wild card in all of this is Jacksonville...for some reason they keep thinking they are going to add scholarships to the football program. I don't see it...but that is the rumor.

Very good analysis on the MAAC situation. :) Will be interesting to see what Marist does...

[aceinthehole]

LFN - good stuff, but I have a few comments.

LaSalle has zero influance on St. Bona FB! The Bonnies are struggling to rebuild the basketball program and reputation in the A-10. Football is not on their horizon. I can't see how starting a non-scholly program in the PFL or AS would fit the SBU athletic plan. I think your prediction is way off.

My predictions:

1) Both Iona and LaSalle will accept an inviation to the NEC and join Duquense for the 2008 season. The NEC will be a 10-member league and will likely play a 8-game conference schedule.

Although 2008 is a 12-game year, I'm not sure all NEC teams will chose to play the "extra" game. In a regular 11-game season, I feel 9 conference games are too much and wold hurt all teams beacsue they could only schedule 2 OOC games. However, I do think that some NEC teams may choose to play each other in a "non-conference" game, as the CAA has done at times.

I think both teams can "ramp up" schollys by about 7-10 per year in the NEC and will likely compete with closer to 20 schollys with the likes of Wagner and SFPA.

2) If the PL can move fast enough, I think Marist may try to join the PL as a FB-only member for 2008, but I think its more likely they join the PFL instead. I just don't think there is enough time or will by either side to extend an all-sports membership right now. If the PL feels Marist would be a good fit for the conference, then I think Marist would likely accept full-membership. I also doubt any other MAAC school join them in a move to the PL, but it is possible Siena, Manhattan, or Fairfield could be a good fit for both sides.

I still think Marist remains the big mystery.
-Can the PL alter their football schedules for the 2008 season to allow Marist in? Each PL member must dcancel at least 1 non-conference game.
-Is Marist willing and ready to join the PL for all sports for 2008?
-Marist is not intersted in the NEC offer, but I doubt the travel and rivalries in the PFL are part of their plan.

I really think LaSalle and Iona are a pair and likely to make any move togeather (regardless of their different all-sports affiliation). This will be a FB-only move for both schools. However, Marist has the most to gain, and IMO the most to loose. I'm very interested to hear from their administration on this topic!

[DetroitFlyer]

Iona, Marist and LaSalle will all join the PFL. Any other option is simply too expensive. Add in Campbell and the PFL will have 12 members in 2008. I have to believe that two, six team divisions will be created, probably east and west. As much as I dislike it, we are probably looking at a PFL championship game as the only viable post season opportunity for the PFL teams.... I think the "hold ups" are waiting for LaSalle and Iona to commit to the increased travel and Marist to commit to the PFL and not to pursue a PL membership. Like I said, at the end of the day, the most cost effective option for all three teams is the PFL. Follow the money, or lack thereof, and you find your answer.

[faxjusfax]

Iona, Marist and LaSalle will all join the PFL. Any other option is simply too expensive. Add in Campbell and the PFL will have 12 members in 2008. I have to believe that two, six team divisions will be created, probably east and west. As much as I dislike it, we are probably looking at a PFL championship game as the only viable post season opportunity for the PFL teams.... I think the "hold ups" are waiting for LaSalle and Iona to commit to the increased travel and Marist to commit to the PFL and not to pursue a PL membership. Like I said, at the end of the day, the most cost effective option for all three teams is the PFL. Follow the money, or lack thereof, and you find your answer.

If I had to bet on it (a small wager, that is), I would agree with the Flyer. The extra $$$ for the MAAC teams would be only 1 or 2 additional plane trips a year (home & home vs the other 5 members of the division). Easily financed, IMO

[aceinthehole]

Flyer, I agree all 3 teams could very likey go the the PFL next year, but despite what Patty V. says, I don't see the PFL as a long-term solution for East Coast teams.

What woud the "East" division of the PFL look like? A 6-team division just promises at best 3 home games and 2 "short road trips."

Marist, LaSalle, Iona and ...
Dayton?
Davidson?
Campbell?
Jacksonville?

So in year 1 Iona could get Marist and LaSalle at home and Dayton, Jacksnonville and Davidson on the road for divisional games - that's 3 likey plane rides right there.

Are the MAAC teams going to bus to Dayton, Davidson, and Campbell?

Now, how many cross-division games wil each team play - 2 or 4? So that at least 1, possibly 2 more plane trips each year.

I think people are vastly undersetimating travel costs, lost classroom time, and lack of rivaries and overestimating true "scholarship cost"for 10-30 equivs. Also, are Bulter fans really waiting for Iona to visit?

I think you guys have some good points, but in the end I think the safest and most cost effective solution for all 3 programs is the NEC. Marist seems to deplore that option, so they remain a mystery to me.

[aceinthehole]

If I had to bet on it (a small wager, that is), I would agree with the Flyer. The extra $$$ for the MAAC teams would be only 1 or 2 additional plane trips a year (home & home vs the other 5 members of the division). Easily financed, IMO

Fax - how many plane trips have the 3 teams made combined during the past 4 seasons? I haven't found any!

The MAAC teams likely haven't had to fly since Cansius dropped its program, vs. 3 to 4 plane trips EACH year. That is a SIGNIFIGANT increase in travel and costs.

In fact, how often do East Coast full-scholly teams (like Delaware or JMU) fly when its not for a paid game? Not very often, becasue its expensive and time consuming!

[danefan]

You can take Siena out of any conversations relating to football. Absolutely no support for that.

There has been some talk about another Albany area school moving up, which would be Renn. Polytech (RPI). They are already DI in hockey and have a pretty sweet stadium plan in the works.
http://www.rpi.edu/campaign/newsletter/stadium.pdf

Not sure where they would fit, but potentially an NEC football only or Patriot League all sports in a few years. I think the academics fits with the Patriot League, but I'm not really sure about all those academic standards stuff. Just pure speculation on my part though. I'd love to have that rivalry in the Capital District though. Public School vs. Private School, etc....

[TheValleyRaider]

You can take Siena out of any conversations relating to football. Absolutely no support for that.

There has been some talk about another Albany area school moving up, which would be Renn. Polytech (RPI). They are already DI in hockey and have a pretty sweet stadium plan in the works.
http://www.rpi.edu/campaign/newsletter/stadium.pdf

Not sure where they would fit, but potentially an NEC football only or Patriot League all sports in a few years. I think the academics fits with the Patriot League, but I'm not really sure about all those academic standards stuff. Just pure speculation on my part though. I'd love to have that rivalry in the Capital District though. Public School vs. Private School, etc....

If RPI were to make the D-I jump, they'd definately be Patriot League material. xnodx

They also play in the ECAC, I mean ECACHL, I mean ECAC Hockey with Colgate, so I've got to think we'd welcome the Engineers whole-heartedly.xthumbsupx

[aceinthehole]

You can take Siena out of any conversations relating to football. Absolutely no support for that.

There has been some talk about another Albany area school moving up, which would be Renn. Polytech (RPI). They are already DI in hockey and have a pretty sweet stadium plan in the works.
http://www.rpi.edu/campaign/newsletter/stadium.pdf

Not sure where they would fit, but potentially an NEC football only or Patriot League all sports in a few years. I think the academics fits with the Patriot League, but I'm not really sure about all those academic standards stuff. Just pure speculation on my part though. I'd love to have that rivalry in the Capital District though. Public School vs. Private School, etc....

Dane, I didn't mean to imply that Siena to the PL w/ football, but if like LFN predicted that Marist would "probably drag another MAAC school with them to make ten basketball schools," I figured Siena, Manhattan, or Fairfiled would be the best fit based on hoops and academics. You are right Siena football is a non-starter.

[downbythebeach]

Siena

I almost went there to play, but luckily I was too cheap to pay out of state rates.

[boo]

Fax - how many plane trips have the 3 teams made combined during the past 4 seasons? I haven't found any!


Don't know about Iona and LaSalle, but Marist flew to San Diegoin '05 and is going again this year. In '01 they flew to Florida Atlantic. Not exactly frequent fliers, but they occasionally fly.

I'm not sure that translates to a travel budget for PFL football, though. At this point, I hope Marist steps up and does something to keep the program.

~~Boo

[Model Citizen]

Boo, I'm pretty sure that Marist trip went on USD's tab.

We'll see if the PFL schools have a change of heart about taking Marist, La Salle, and Iona. Meanwhile, the MAAC keeps going. If they're continuing with four schools this year, it makes sense that they could continue with four next year. The replacement for Duquesne could be Bryant, which is doing an exploratory D-I year beginning this fall. Down the road, a St. Bonaventure might be available. This cat has nine lives.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Boo, I'm pretty sure that Marist trip went on USD's tab.

We'll see if the PFL schools have a change of heart about taking Marist, La Salle, and Iona. Meanwhile, the MAAC keeps going. If they're continuing with four schools this year, it makes sense that they could continue with four next year. The replacement for Duquesne could be Bryant, which is doing an exploratory D-I year beginning this fall. Down the road, a St. Bonaventure might be available. This cat has nine lives.

To my knowledge Bryant is not considering the MAAC or non-scholarship football at all, since they didn't attend the non-scholarship football summit.

The MAAC, barring some miraculous last-minute leadership that hasn't materialized for the past seven years, will disband after 2007. Nobody really knows where Marist, Iona, or LaSalle might be going after 2007 - it's all speculation.

I like that St. Bonnie idea, especially coupled with LaSalle, since both would have a built-in possible rivalry and would guarantee one trip to Philadelphia for all future opponents.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If RPI were to make the D-I jump, they'd definitely be Patriot League material. xnodx

They also play in the ECAC, I mean ECACHL, I mean ECAC Hockey with Colgate, so I've got to think we'd welcome the Engineers whole-heartedly.xthumbsupx

Although I'm not sure if Lehigh is ready for another set of Engineers joining the league xlolx , if RPI is seriously thinking about D-I in all sports I think the Patriot League would move heaven and earth to get them, even if their men's basketball team stinks.

Incidentlly, it's the RPI Red. xeekx :pumpuke:

[Model Citizen]

I'm no expert on Division II, but doesn't Bryant already have a non-scholarship program? And wasn't the so-called football summit more of a PFL summit?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm no expert on Division II, but doesn't Bryant already have a non-scholarship program? And wasn't the so-called football summit more of a PFL summit?

From the "Bryant going to D-I" thread (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24899) it's unclear, but Cobblestone says they do have them.

The summit involved any school with non-scholarship football or is actively considering it, so the MAAC schools were there as well as schools restarting football like Campbell.

[Go...gate]

You can take Siena out of any conversations relating to football. Absolutely no support for that.

There has been some talk about another Albany area school moving up, which would be Renn. Polytech (RPI). They are already DI in hockey and have a pretty sweet stadium plan in the works.
http://www.rpi.edu/campaign/newsletter/stadium.pdf

Not sure where they would fit, but potentially an NEC football only or Patriot League all sports in a few years. I think the academics fits with the Patriot League, but I'm not really sure about all those academic standards stuff. Just pure speculation on my part though. I'd love to have that rivalry in the Capital District though. Public School vs. Private School, etc....

RPI an old Colgate rival and a good fit in the PL.

[danefan]

From the "Bryant going to D-I" thread (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24899) it's unclear, but Cobblestone says they do have them.

The summit involved any school with non-scholarship football or is actively considering it, so the MAAC schools were there as well as schools restarting football like Campbell.


Not sure what their exact classification is, but when I was in high school Bryant was just starting their program and was throwing money around to get recruits. Never really got into detail with them b/c I was a DI recruit, but i think it was athletic money.

[aceinthehole]

Please, stop the madness about St. Bona. Does anyone really think they could throw togeather a football program just to keep the MAAc or non-scholly football alive in the east for next season?

They don't have a plan, or coaches, or players, or funding, or the intent to stsrt football. It will take ODU 2-3 years to build a football program; these things take time, money, and effort - 3 things St. Bona lacks. There are some bright minds on this board, but St. Bona football defies logic.

The MAAC schools have the following choices:

1) All stay in the MAAC. In reality, this is Independent status with a 2 game "conference schedule" or a 4 game in-season home/home arraingment. The remander of the schedule will be non-conference matchups with NEC, PL, and PFL, and other FCS programs.

2) All join the NEC. I think its fair to say the NEC would welcome all 3 teams. Marist does not like this idea at all, however Iona and LaSalle would probably be well served by this decision.

3) All join the PFL. The 3 programs could begin an "East Division" with 2-3 existing, or new PFL programs. This requires a lot of travel, but it would promise a 5-8 game schedule and "conference benefits."

4) Marist to the PL; Iona and LaSalle to the NEC. It could be possible that Marist gets into the PL as a football-only member, with all-sports membership to follow. Iona and LaSalle would most like jump to the NEC to maintain travel and rivalry benefits.

5) Drop football. Any of the schools could choose to fold.

I can't imagine any other way this could go down.

[Model Citizen]

From the "Bryant going to D-I" thread (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24899) it's unclear, but Cobblestone says they do have them.

The summit involved any school with non-scholarship football or is actively considering it, so the MAAC schools were there as well as schools restarting football like Campbell.

When C.W. Post, a member of Bryant's conference, went to the D-II playoffs awhile back, they said they were non-scholarship.

http://www.cwpostpioneers.com/bio.asp?staffid=4

It's my understanding the whole conference is non-scholarship.

As for the summit, it was called by the PFL commissioner, attended by 3/4 MAAC schools, and LS-Marist-Iona had hats in hand, begging to join the PFL. No MAAC commissioner present. No real discussion of the MAAC, even though the MAAC is continuing to operate a n/s football league.

It seems Bryant and St. Bonaventure are not interested in the PFL, but I wouldn't read anything more into it.

[Player19]

Lasalle is only a member of the MAAC for football, therefore I doubt that they would be tied in with Iona or Marist. It's much easier for Lasalle to make a decision in that they don't have to consider the other sports. I think they will join the PFL and go from there.

[Model Citizen]

Please, stop the madness about St. Bona. Does anyone really think they could throw togeather a football program just to keep the MAAc or non-scholly football alive in the east for next season?

That wasn't my sugggestion. If they started football, it would be for their own interests and wouldn't happen for years.

[dgreco]

Not sure what their exact classification is, but when I was in high school Bryant was just starting their program and was throwing money around to get recruits. Never really got into detail with them b/c I was a DI recruit, but i think it was athletic money.

the NE10 is non-scholarship conference. Bryant only offers scholarships for mens and womens basketball and womens volleyball right now.

[Go...gate]

Iona and Manhattan to the PL? Interesting.....

[Seahawks Fan]

Iona and Manhattan to the PL? Interesting.....



Manhattan?

[Go...gate]

Manhattan?

It was in the LFN piece....

[colorless raider]

Iona and Manhattan to the PL? Interesting.....
Ain't going to happen.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Ain't going to happen.

Why not? Are they happy with the MAAC?

I'm not saying Iona/Manhattan are a perfect fit, but as I mentioned in the piece it would be more of a referendum on the management of the MAAC, not non-scholly football.

I think Iona/Manhattan stay put, and Iona joins Duquesne as an affiliate in the NEC. But I wouldn't say that's set in stone either.

[TheValleyRaider]

Although I'm not sure if Lehigh is ready for another set of Engineers joining the league xlolx , if RPI is seriously thinking about D-I in all sports I think the Patriot League would move heaven and earth to get them, even if their men's basketball team stinks.

Incidentlly, it's the RPI Red. xeekx :pumpuke:

Goody, another Red to beat up on :D

Actually, RPI has different nicknames for its different teams. Some are the Red, some the Red Hawks (or just Hawks), and the Hockey teams are the Engineers, complete with the greatest mascot in college hockey....PUCKMAN!

http://www.rpihockey.net/011229a/puckman.png

[dgreco]

another great article

[colorless raider]

Why not? Are they happy with the MAAC?

I'm not saying Iona/Manhattan are a perfect fit, but as I mentioned in the piece it would be more of a referendum on the management of the MAAC, not non-scholly football.

I think Iona/Manhattan stay put, and Iona joins Duquesne as an affiliate in the NEC. But I wouldn't say that's set in stone either.

Academics first....so I don't see Iona or Marist either.

[bison137]

Academics first....so I don't see Iona or Marist either.


But Marist clearly ranks ahead of Iona by any objective measurement.

[Fresno St. Alum]

You can take Siena out of any conversations relating to football. Absolutely no support for that.

There has been some talk about another Albany area school moving up, which would be Renn. Polytech (RPI). They are already DI in hockey and have a pretty sweet stadium plan in the works.
http://www.rpi.edu/campaign/newsletter/stadium.pdf

Not sure where they would fit, but potentially an NEC football only or Patriot League all sports in a few years. I think the academics fits with the Patriot League, but I'm not really sure about all those academic standards stuff. Just pure speculation on my part though. I'd love to have that rivalry in the Capital District though. Public School vs. Private School, etc....


As far as I know no school can jump from D-III to D-I. NAIA to D-I with a longer provisional membership yes. D-II to D-I of course. Albany went D-III, D-II, D-I. Maybe RPI would be exempt since they are D-I in hockey. I'm not sure though. They could move to D-II the NE-10 will be looking for members.

[Fresno St. Alum]

If the PL went to 10 for all sports I would think both schools added would have football to get to 9 for FB 4/4 Home/Away.

I think PL takes Marist by 2009 not sure about Bryant either PL or MAAC,NEC(for FB).

Iona & LaSalle to the PFL with hopes of ending up in the NEC for FB.

CW Post question. CW Post will add schollys now, they joined the PSAC for FB which has a 25 scholly limit, the PSAC is looking to go to the full 36 schollys soon.

[Fresno St. Alum]

The summit included...Detroit Mercy, Evansville, Harding, Kennesaw State, Lipscomb,
High Point, and St. Bonaventure (scheduled but did not attend).

High Point & St. Bona are interesting ones. I had no idea they were looking into it. Since Bona didn't go they won't start it.

Who do you guys think of the schools looking to start FB will start it soon?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The summit included...Detroit Mercy, Evansville, Harding, Kennesaw State, Lipscomb,
High Point, and St. Bonaventure (scheduled but did not attend).

High Point & St. Bona are interesting ones. I had no idea they were looking into it. Since Bona didn't go they won't start it.

Who do you guys think of the schools looking to start FB will start it soon?

This is one guy's opinion only, but here's the order I would predict in likelihood:

Campbell (a no-brainer, they've already said they're starting FB)
Lipscomb
Evansville
Detroit

Harding, KSU, High Point and St. Bonnie, I couldn't say. But the Atlantic Sun schools is something I'm wondering about, so Kennesaw State I think might be another interesting possibility.

I wonder about others not at the conference. Belmont? ETSU?