Time for an MVFC all-sports conference

[mvfcfan]

Current Conferences:

MVC

Illinois State
Indiana State
Missouri State
Northern Iowa
Southern Illinois

Bradley
Drake
Evansville
Loyola
Valparaiso

Summit

North Dakota
North Dakota State
South Dakota
South Dakota State
Western Illinois

Denver
Omaha
Oral Roberts
UMKC
*St Thomas

Seems simple to me. Every MVC football school is an improvement over any of the non-football SL schools in basketball. NDSU, SDSU, and USD are all improvements for the MVC football schools over schools like Drake, Evansville, and Valparaiso. I would also vouch for leaving out WIU (too many issues) and YSU (major outlier), and adding Murray State who would be a great basketball option. I think an all-sports MVFC with the 5 MVC publics, 4 Dakota schools, and Murray State would become one of the best mid-major conferences in the country in no time. The football would be just as good, the basketball would be really tough, and I think baseball would be pretty good as well. It just seems like a win win situation for all involved. I'd also make it a requirement for all future members to have scholarship football to be a full member.

NEW Conference (separated into travel partners)

North Dakota
North Dakota State

South Dakota State
South Dakota

Northern Iowa
Missouri State

Illinois State
Indiana State

Southern Illinois
Murray State

[TheKingpin28]

I only voted no for one reason in particular, I would want St Thomas (PFL) and another Olympic school. I'd love to see this but Murray State might want to go PFL football and bring along Omaha and UST, that would be more in line with what I'd be looking for. Gaining access to the Twin Cities would be a huge market boost and having Omaha (for baseball purposes) would be a nice market to tap into.

You would have the following sports covered with this outlook:

Baseball: 9 and then throw a bone to Oral Roberts to get to 10
Basketball: 12
Football: 9, 10, or 11
Softball: 12
Volleyball: 12
Wrestling: Still Big 12

[mvfcfan]

When Creighton and Wichita State left the only price they had to pay was that they didn't get their NCAA Tournament revenue. The MVC does not have an actual exit fee. Murray State would have to pay $500,000 to the OVC. I don't know what the Summit League's exit fee is or if there is one. I assume it's not much with all the schools that have bailed in the past.

[POD Knows]

I only voted no for one reason in particular, I would want St Thomas (PFL) and another Olympic school. I'd love to see this but Murray State might want to go PFL football and bring along Omaha and UST, that would be more in line with what I'd be looking for. Gaining access to the Twin Cities would be a huge market boost and having Omaha (for baseball purposes) would be a nice market to tap into.

You would have the following sports covered with this outlook:

Baseball: 9 and then throw a bone to Oral Roberts to get to 10
Basketball: 12
Football: 9, 10, or 11
Softball: 12
Volleyball: 12
Wrestling: Still Big 12I voted yes, not real sure why other than it is a pure troll move directed at the BB snobs. xlolx

[clenz]

So you're asking MVC schools to trade basketball set ups of

Loyola for SDSU
Bradley for NDSU
Drake for USD
Evansville for UND

?

You want to trade a conference that is a top 10-11 league in the nation for one that would be lucky to get to top half.

Um...no. I mean, I want Evansville gone more than anyone else. I really do. Dear God do I hate sharing a conference with them. Getting rid of them isn't worth it.

[Mocs123]

Can we work up a scenario where we get NDSU a P5 spot so the rest of us have a shot!!! xlolx

[nodak651]

So you're asking MVC schools to trade basketball set ups of

Loyola for SDSU
Bradley for NDSU
Drake for USD
Evansville for UND

?

You want to trade a conference that is a top 10-11 league in the nation for one that would be lucky to get to top half.

Um...no. I mean, I want Evansville gone more than anyone else. I really do. Dear God do I hate sharing a conference with them. Getting rid of them isn't worth it.

You really think this conference would be that bad? It would have the MVC publics and almost all of the schools in the conference are large state schools with decent to great fan support, and if the conf tournament was in Sioux Falls it would already be an improvement from what the Valley currently has. UND could also play some games at the Ralph if required. I don't really care either way though, because I don't see this happening.

[Baron Sardonicus]

Have you MVFC people been at a (MVC school v. Dakota school) football game, and heard someone say, "I wish we played them in basketball"?

Or women's basketball...or baseball? Would think that might be a thing.

[Baron Sardonicus]

... I don't see this happening.

It would be radical, but very similar to what the ASun has planned with the United Athletic Conference. Except that while the ASun is searching for schools to be a part of its plan, the MVC and Summit schools are already there. Only a public/private school switch would be required.

If the schools involved could switch conferences without the usual TV revenue penalties, it could happen. Need to look at some type of waiver.

[TheKingpin28]

I voted yes, not real sure why other than it is a pure troll move directed at the BB snobs. xlolx

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/RepentantDeliriousAfricanhornbill-size_restricted.gif

[Baron Sardonicus]

Those one bid basketball conferences all look alike after awhile. Rivalries can make them different.

[clenz]

You really think this conference would be that bad? It would have the MVC publics and almost all of the schools in the conference are large state schools with decent to great fan support, and if the conf tournament was in Sioux Falls it would already be an improvement from what the Valley currently has. UND could also play some games at the Ralph if required. I don't really care either way though, because I don't see this happening.
None of the MVC schools are desperate/spineless enough to play a conference tournament in Sioux Falls. We live in a healthy conference that doesn't need to pander to 2 schools 45 minutes away to supply 99% of the fans.

Yes, it would be that bad. The bottom of that league would more than kill it. The highest NET team this last year in the Summit would have been 6th/7th in the MVC

We would be trading
Loyola 98
Bradley 102
Valpo 138
Drake 156
Evansvile 264

for

SDSU 126
NDSU 130
USD 182
UND 249

Of the Summit schools SDSU is the only one, that night in and night out, wouldn't struggle at the step up in level.

It would be like moving from the OVC to the MVFC, largely. In OOC play the idea of hanging in there, winning games, etc. is possible. However, facing the level of that conference every single game, would make a major difference. The same thing happens when you are now playing UNI, SIU, ISUr, MSU, ISUb and Murray State in this situation 10-12 times a year. There's a pretty significant level jump, and night in and night out that's a hell of a lot to just move into. The net at the top would be drug by the net at the bottom far far far more than the net at the bottom would be helped by UNI or Murray at the top.

Hell, Evansville beat Kentucky this year (yes, more a one off), beat Murray State and was 9-4 OOC. They went 0-18 (0-19 with conference tournament) in MVC play. Drake went 11-3 in OOC play.

You also have to look at the difference in funding of the basketball programs between those 4 and then the MVC 5 plus MSU. The average of the Dakota 4 is like 1.2m. The average of the MVC 5 plus MSU is about 2.8 or so with UNI and MSU over 3 million. Asking NDSU to fund their basketball program might mean slightly fewer pennies for the football program, which will never happen. UNI has by far the smallest basketball arena at 7400 - the average of the others is like 10k. The average of the Summit schools is like 5-6k. The idea of going "Yeah, but we could also play basketball in our hockey arena" doesn't make it more appealing. Asking NDSU to fund their basketball program might mean slightly fewer pennies for the football program, which will never happen.

I'm all for Murray State in the MVC. I'm willing to take a stand for SDSU as well. You start to lose me with NDSU. By the time you get to the UxD's you're so far gone from anything I (as a fan) or any of the MVC admin are willing to listen too - especially if it means dumping Loyola, Drake, and Bradley - I have a pretty good feeling no one would care if Valpo and Evansville went away though.

[mvfcfan]

Average NET for MVC: 138.4
Average NET for SL (exc KC and FW): 215.6

Average NET for new MVFC: 145

The new MVFC is barely a drop at all and Murray State, NDSU, SDSU, and USD would likely have had higher NET's if it wasn't for all the Q4's in their conferences.

Also keep in mind that Evansville was 9-4 and beat UK and Murray while Walter McCarty was their coach. After he was caught being the BMOC and fired they lost every game after that. Jax State blew them out of the gym as well.

As for arenas, trying to knock the Dakotas when 3 of the private schools in the MVC play in similar if not worse arenas is a little misleading. Bradley and Evansville play in hockey arenas and it works. North Dakota's hockey arena appears to be really nice and would work great for basketball if they chose to have games there.

As for a conference tournament Des Moines looks like a pretty good centralized location that is easy to drive or fly to from basically anywhere.

[Bisonator]

You also have to look at the difference in funding of the basketball programs between those 4 and then the MVC 5 plus MSU. The average of the Dakota 4 is like 1.2m. The average of the MVC 5 plus MSU is about 2.8 or so with UNI and MSU over 3 million. Asking NDSU to fund their basketball program might mean slightly fewer pennies for the football program, which will never happen. UNI has by far the smallest basketball arena at 7400 - the average of the others is like 10k. The average of the Summit schools is like 5-6k. The idea of going "Yeah, but we could also play basketball in our hockey arena" doesn't make it more appealing. Asking NDSU to fund their basketball program might mean slightly fewer pennies for the football program, which will never happen.

I'm all for Murray State in the MVC. I'm willing to take a stand for SDSU as well. You start to lose me with NDSU. By the time you get to the UxD's you're so far gone from anything I (as a fan) or any of the MVC admin are willing to listen too - especially if it means dumping Loyola, Drake, and Bradley - I have a pretty good feeling no one would care if Valpo and Evansville went away though.
Lol let the hate out clenz, let it all out.xlolx

I'm guessing if NDSU was in this mythical conference or any other they would find a way to fund the BB program at a competitive level. The fact is we don't spend the money the MVC schools do because we don't have to in the SL. It's us and SDSU then everyone else. I think we've done OK, would I like to see us be more then a one and done in the NCAA? Sure but just throwing money at it doesn't necessarily make it happen either.

The fact is you're scared ****less to be in the same conference with NDSU because you know UNI would eventually be over taken just like they were in football. It's OK to admit it.;)

Let's be real the MVC isn't what it used to be, it's a one bid league just like the rest.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Lol let the hate out clenz, let it all out.xlolx

I'm guessing if NDSU was in this mythical conference or any other they would find a way to fund the BB program at a competitive level. The fact is we don't spend the money the MVC schools do because we don't have to in the SL. It's us and SDSU then everyone else. I think we've done OK, would I like to see us be more then a one and done in the NCAA? Sure but just throwing money at it doesn't necessarily make it happen either.

The fact is you're scared ****less to be in the same conference with NDSU because you know UNI would eventually be over taken just like they were in football. It's OK to admit it.;)

Let's be real the MVC isn't what it used to be, it's a one bid league just like the rest.



Preach it....xlolx

Summit is just fine for NDSU as of now IMO.

UNI was top dog in the Valley for years then NDSU and SDSU passed them by. UND and USD will probably soon enough also.

NDSU/SDSU in the MVC would pass UNI up also given time.....xnodx

[NY Crusader 2010]

My opinion: I agree with clenz that the Missouri Valley isn't going to trade the 4 private schools to bring in the Dakotas. I don't know if you guys remember but Loyola just made the FINAL FOUR out of the Valley. And they're not going to throw out Valpo or Drake either. In the long run, North Dakota State and South Dakota State could definitely add value to the basketball conference. Issue is that I don't think there's any way the league would want to bring in all four Dakota Schools. So NDSU would have to be willing to separate from UND as would SDSU from USD.

[NY Crusader 2010]

St. Thomas will get into the Valley before any of the Dakota schools. Unfortunately all-sports conferences aren't built around football when your talking about FCS level football. Adding strong programs and key markets for Men's Hoops will be the priority for the Missouri Valley Conference.

[that guy]

Rather see summit add the Illinois schools and St. Tomas and tell UNI to have fun with what is left.

[Baron Sardonicus]

St. Thomas will get into the Valley before any of the Dakota schools. Unfortunately all-sports conferences aren't built around football when your talking about FCS level football. Adding strong programs and key markets for Men's Hoops will be the priority for the Missouri Valley Conference.


Yes. If it were possible, I could see the Valley acquiring St. Thomas from the Summit in exchange for a couple state schools.

[WestCoastAggie]

When Creighton and Wichita State left the only price they had to pay was that they didn't get their NCAA Tournament revenue. The MVC does not have an actual exit fee. Murray State would have to pay $500,000 to the OVC. I don't know what the Summit League's exit fee is or if there is one. I assume it's not much with all the schools that have bailed in the past.

That buyout fee goes up to $750K if they miss a deadline.

[mvfcfan]

I keep seeing these MVC basketball people say that they're fine with SDSU, but not fine with NDSU. I fail to see how SDSU is any better than NDSU. They've both dominated the Summit League since 2012 and NDSU has actually won a first round game. Am I missing something here?

I also have to laugh when a UNI fan says they want to play Loyola. I seem to remember that it was leaked in 2013 that UNI was the one school that voted "no" on adding Loyola. Just like it was leaked that 2 schools voted "no" on Valpo (I think they were MSU and SIU) because they wanted Murray State.

[clenz]

I keep seeing these MVC basketball people say that they're fine with SDSU, but not fine with NDSU. I fail to see how SDSU is any better than NDSU. They've both dominated the Summit League since 2012 and NDSU has actually won a first round game. Am I missing something here?

I also have to laugh when a UNI fan says they want to play Loyola. I seem to remember that it was leaked in 2013 that UNI was the one school that voted "no" on adding Loyola. Just like it was leaked that 2 schools voted "no" on Valpo (I think they were MSU and SIU) because they wanted Murray State.
Loyola was not the right choice in 2013. I stand by that. They have improved, that's great. They still weren't the play in 2013.
Valpo should 1000000% have been voted against by every school. They were an abomination of an addition on so many levels. Murray State was ready to move. They had set aside a pot of money to pay fees and budgets upgrades to make the move. They have the facilities, the donors, the ambition. However, they are a public with football. That means they were not going to get the votes.

Valpo is Evansville with one flukey NCAA win 2 decades ago. We already have 1 Evansville, we don't need 2.

SDSU is favored over NDSU if we need 1 of the 2 for a couple reasons

1. Location, it's much more "in the footprint"
2. They are a basketball school more than a football school very similar to UNI, MSU, ISUr in that regard. NDSU is like 98/2 in terms of lean to football. Schools like UNI, MSU and ISUr are 50/50 to 60/40 basketball. SDSU has increased football lean the last 5 years or so, but is still very much basketball focused, especially compared to NDSU.


Outside of Murray - who now has new leadership and that doesn't seem to have the interest in moving the last one did - I don't see another option to make expanding "worth it" that is realistic. Saint Louis was be GREAT to go with Murray to go to 12. Private to offset the public of Murray. Basketball focused. Facilities/support. Geographic home run, etc. However, they don't seen to be interested in being in a midwest league, they have their eyes all over the east coast.

The league has no interest in 11 teams. For whatever reason they see it as an impossible feat, though it's been done for decades by other leagues.

Taking 1 of the Dakota schools creates far more issues in terms of the MVFC/Summit alignment than it solves. It would actually crumble both the Summit and MVFC (as of now), which is bad for everyone in the Summit and MVC, even the privates in the MVC.

If UNI wanted to be in the NCC, they wouldn't have left 42 years ago. That's the reality of it.

Ironically, since St. Thomas has been thrown out there - if Murray and going to 12 is still the end game - the MVC is the PRIME place to yank St. Thomas in 5 years if they show progress. It would pair them up with regional peer, private, institutions. It would keep the public/private split in the MVC. It would be impossible for St Thomas to pass up moving up the ladder in terms of conference prestige. They clearly aren't moving to D1 to just be another Summit League program. They are aiming to be a Bradley, Drake, Creighton, Loyola, etc. level school

[nodak651]

Yes. If it were possible, I could see the Valley acquiring St. Thomas from the Summit in exchange for a couple state schools.

I could see that happening (MVC adding St. Thomas at some point). Now that Summit has rid itself of IPFW and IUIPUI, the Summit really needs to look at implementing a significant exit fee. The Summit has a strong core, and St. Thomas will be important for the league - they should ask St. Thomas to agree to 1.5 - 2 mil exit fee for elevating them to D1. Would love to see a league wide exit fee in that range as well.

[Herder]

NDSU has out attendanced SDSU in DI Basketball (7 of 12 years), and their success has been at least equal to if not better, with 2 tournament wins vs. 0 for SDSU. Each have made 5 trips I believe in 12 years. SDSU fan support is strong, but the tournament in SF tends to influence people's view. ND and NDSU could do the same in Fargo that SDSU and USD do in SF (yes SF is a better overall location of the tournament than Fargo, I agree)

When the MVC brought in Valpo with everyone on MVC Fan Forum sold on that move, I just had to laugh. SDSU and NDSU are primary State Universities 3 hours from MSP with major fan support. If you challenge SDSU/NDSU in a league like the MVC, game on. UNI learned that in football, and would see the same in MBB/WBB. On top of that you have well rounded overall Athletic departments with whole states behind them, with some influence by the U's also.

While being in a conference with UNI would be very enticing, I'm not sold that a move to the MVC would be better than staying in the Summit for NDSU/SDSU. I like the footprint of the Summit now actually, and I would not want to deal with the MVC privates (at all). I really like the recent add of Denver, ORU and UST. UMKC is a nice geography add with Omaha, and Western really isn't (oh well).

[ST_Lawson]

...I would also vouch for leaving out WIU (too many issues)...


...UMKC is a nice geography add with Omaha, and Western really isn't (oh well).


https://i.imgur.com/sP1kpyo.jpg

[TheKingpin28]

https://i.imgur.com/sP1kpyo.jpg

We still care about you (for baseball reasons :D), but at the end of the day, how is WIU operating a D1 budget? I'm surprised you haven't tried to make a run for MVC or OVC yet with how the Summit keeps moving further west.

[ST_Lawson]

We still care about you (for baseball reasons :D), but at the end of the day, how is WIU operating a D1 budget? I'm surprised you haven't tried to make a run for MVC or OVC yet with how the Summit keeps moving further west.

I don't really know. I'm pretty sure our overall budget is quite a bit lower than all the other MVFC schools, and with regards to football (for 2018 data), our budget is last in the MVFC (~$370k below Missouri State) and ahead of the top nearby DII schools (~$685k ahead of McKendree). We also just announced last week that we are suspending swimming and diving and they'll be re-evaluating things to decide if they're going to reinstate it or drop it completely.

In terms of conference realignment, we're pretty much never getting into the MVC. We just don't have the sustained success and financial support in basketball that we'd need to get any kind of consideration. Other fans have mentioned going to the OVC as a possibility...which it might be, but I've never heard anything regarding that from the people in charge here or the people at the OVC. I'm honestly kinda surprised we haven't decided to drop to DII yet, but based on what has been going on with our men's team in the offseason, it doesn't seem like DII is under consideration as a possibility.

Obviously I get it, we can't afford to spend what we really need to spend to be competitive at our level and haven't had a great deal of football success in the last 20 years outside of an occasional good team here or there. I just kinda found it funny/sad that we often seem to come up in conversations where people are like..."let's bring these teams together, and drop WIU"..."that conference would be great, minus WIU".

[TheKingpin28]

I don't really know. I'm pretty sure our overall budget is quite a bit lower than all the other MVFC schools, and with regards to football (for 2018 data), our budget is last in the MVFC (~$370k below Missouri State) and ahead of the top nearby DII schools (~$685k ahead of McKendree). We also just announced last week that we are suspending swimming and diving and they'll be re-evaluating things to decide if they're going to reinstate it or drop it completely.

In terms of conference realignment, we're pretty much never getting into the MVC. We just don't have the sustained success and financial support in basketball that we'd need to get any kind of consideration. Other fans have mentioned going to the OVC as a possibility...which it might be, but I've never heard anything regarding that from the people in charge here or the people at the OVC. I'm honestly kinda surprised we haven't decided to drop to DII yet, but based on what has been going on with our men's team in the offseason, it doesn't seem like DII is under consideration as a possibility.

Obviously I get it, we can't afford to spend what we really need to spend to be competitive at our level and haven't had a great deal of football success in the last 20 years outside of an occasional good team here or there. I just kinda found it funny/sad that we often seem to come up in conversations where people are like..."let's bring these teams together, and drop WIU"..."that conference would be great, minus WIU".I actually enjoy having WIU in the league for both Summit and Valley but at the end of the day, WIU cant afford to always fly everywhere for sports when the Dakotas can take a bus to all but Denver, UMKC* (I mean they could for South Dakota schools but North Dakota school probably not) ORU, and WIU. Having St Thomas added is nice for the footprint but not having another school within 300 miles or so has to suck.

Denver has so much money that they really dont care what people think of them and would go straight to MWC if they cared about more than just hockey. ORU is needed for baseball and adding UMKC to the I29/I35 corridor let's them know the conference is staying along that route. UMKC is another warm body but gives Omaha a decent travel partner even though USeD was a pseudo partner. St Thomas gives Twin Cities exposure and it is easy to get to so that is a no brainer.



Geographically though, I would not be surprised if they did a double swap where Murray goes to Valley for Football and MVC for other sports and WIU takes their place in the OVC. I just do not see, financially speaking, how in 5 years WIU is in the Summit and/or Valley for football.

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

I actually enjoy having WIU in the league for both Summit and Valley but at the end of the day, WIU cant afford to always fly everywhere for sports when the Dakotas can take a bus to all but Denver, UMKC* (I mean they could for South Dakota schools but North Dakota school probably not) ORU, and WIU. Having St Thomas added is nice for the footprint but not having another school within 300 miles or so has to suck.

Denver has so much money that they really dont care what people think of them and would go straight to MWC if they cared about more than just hockey. ORU is needed for baseball and adding UMKC to the I29/I35 corridor let's them know the conference is staying along that route. UMKC is another warm body but gives Omaha a decent travel partner even though USeD was a pseudo partner. St Thomas gives Twin Cities exposure and it is easy to get to so that is a no brainer.



Geographically though, I would not be surprised if they did a double swap where Murray goes to Valley for Football and MVC for other sports and WIU takes their place in the OVC. I just do not see, financially speaking, how in 5 years WIU is in the Summit and/or Valley for football.

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WIU is in a tough spot.

The state of Illinois leadership is incompetent and the state is hurting for money. With this virus debacle happening, many schools will close their doors in the coming years especially if "onlline" courses become more popular and kids are not on campus.

Probably would be a very good thing for future students if a good portion of schools would close down. More competition for students might mean lower tuition rates, which is a good thing for students.

Hopefully, WIU can weather this storm and stay D1.

[mvfcfan]

If the MVC just went to 11 by adding Murray State and went to a 20 game schedule that would solve a lot of problems. It would give us 6 football schools which would be enough for an auto bid if all the Summit schools and YSU ever left (worse case scenario).

A new northern Big Sky with the 4 Dakota's, 2 Idaho's, 2 Montana's, Weber St, and EWU would probably be a better fit for the Dakota schools long term. It would also end up being the best conference in FCS by far. Being in a conference with UMKC, UNO, ORU, UST, Denver, and even WIU seems like something that they are willing to put up with for now because they have to for automatic bids.

[Bisonator]

If the MVC just went to 11 by adding Murray State and went to a 20 game schedule that would solve a lot of problems. It would give us 6 football schools which would be enough for an auto bid if all the Summit schools and YSU ever left (worse case scenario).

A new northern Big Sky with the 4 Dakota's, 2 Idaho's, 2 Montana's, Weber St, and EWU would probably be a better fit for the Dakota schools long term. It would also end up being the best conference in FCS by far. Being in a conference with UMKC, UNO, ORU, UST, Denver, and even WIU seems like something that they are willing to put up with for now because they have to for automatic bids.
**** no unless it's a new FBS conference. Might as well try to get into the MWC at that point.

[TheKingpin28]

If the MVC just went to 11 by adding Murray State and went to a 20 game schedule that would solve a lot of problems. It would give us 6 football schools which would be enough for an auto bid if all the Summit schools and YSU ever left (worse case scenario).

A new northern Big Sky with the 4 Dakota's, 2 Idaho's, 2 Montana's, Weber St, and EWU would probably be a better fit for the Dakota schools long term. It would also end up being the best conference in FCS by far. Being in a conference with UMKC, UNO, ORU, UST, Denver, and even WIU seems like something that they are willing to put up with for now because they have to for automatic bids.

Travel wise, that's going to be a no from the Dakota schools. In theory, for football, sure that would be fine, but the problem is, the serious amount of flights that were just added from this. Right now, the Dakota schools fly to WIU, Denver, and ORU (maybe UMKC for NDSU/GFCC) but the travel pairings work out fairly well. By adding UMKC, ORU is now a bus ride for those two schools regardless of which team plays and UMKC is now a bus ride for Omaha as well. So realistically speaking, Denver and WIU are the new outliers in the conference, but getting away fans to go to Montana, Idaho, Utah, and Washington every year for different sports, is a hard thing to do.

[1992Bison]

Nah screw the mighty MVC (a one bid league). We need summit football.

[nodak651]

One thing to consider is what would the conference of the remaining private MVC schools even look like? It would unquestionably be worse, especially if the new Summit league kept St. Thomas, Denver, and Omaha. I think the Summit schools would see greatly improved recruiting, and the recruiting for Drake, Evansville, Bradley, etc would drop off. The new Summit league would have 10x the conference tournament, even if held in Iowa, which would also help with recruiting, and the potential is way higher than the current MVC.

[dewey]

**** no unless it's a new FBS conference. Might as well try to get into the MWC at that point.

Absolutely agree. A "New Northern Big Sky" would be terrible for travel. NDSU's closest opponent outside of the Dakota would be Montana State which is just short of 11 hours per Google Maps but the MVFC' farthest opponent is Youngstown State at just short of 17 hours and 12.5 hours to Indiana State and then every other opponent is close where the Northern Big Sky every opponent from MSU going West justs gets farther away.

Bad for travel and athletic budgets. Why do you think GFCC came to the Summit/MVFC?

Dewey

[Herder]

If the MVC just went to 11 by adding Murray State and went to a 20 game schedule that would solve a lot of problems. It would give us 6 football schools which would be enough for an auto bid if all the Summit schools and YSU ever left (worse case scenario).

A new northern Big Sky with the 4 Dakota's, 2 Idaho's, 2 Montana's, Weber St, and EWU would probably be a better fit for the Dakota schools long term. It would also end up being the best conference in FCS by far. Being in a conference with UMKC, UNO, ORU, UST, Denver, and even WIU seems like something that they are willing to put up with for now because they have to for automatic bids.

Frankly, I'd rather not play in a football conf with MT, MT State, Idaho, Idaho State, EWU . . . just too far away and in Western time zones. I prefer the MVFC Teams for football, the Summit/MVC group. I much prefer the current MVFC vs. this Northern BSC you speak of, or Summit football.

[Baron Sardonicus]

UMKC officially became a member of the Summit League today. All that's needed is a bullet train from Tulsa to Grand Forks, with five stops along the way. :D

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Nah screw the mighty MVC (a one bid league). We need summit football.



NDSU
SDSU
USD
GFCC
WIU

St Thomas if they go to scholly football. St Thomas has an endowment that is 2.5X bigger than NDSU's. They have rich alums....they could do scholly football if they wanted to.

Lots of OOC games to find for all teams. I like the Valley but wouldn't be opposed to Summit football either...xnodx

[Baron Sardonicus]

NDSU


St Thomas if they go to scholly football. St Thomas has an endowment that is 2.5X bigger than NDSU's. They have rich alums....they could do scholly football if they wanted to.

They don't want to. Their endowment is for educational purposes. They are not Wofford, with a $45 million athletic scholarship endowment. They are a midwestern Catholic school that values its football game with St. John's more than it would a game against NDSU. Their president is a former administrator at the University of San Diego, a.k.a. the most beautiful school in the United States (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLjxkdh_Oy4), so there are already relationships with the PFL.

Don't make them into something they are not.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

They don't want to. Their endowment is for educational purposes. They are not Wofford, with a $45 million athletic scholarship endowment. They are a midwestern Catholic school that values its football game with St. John's more than it would a game against NDSU. Their president is a former administrator at the University of San Diego, a.k.a. the most beautiful school in the United States (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLjxkdh_Oy4), so there are already relationships with the PFL.

Don't make them into something they are not.


And you know what they want to do? Ok bud.

I have friends that are alums and St Thomas could do FCS football if they wanted to. Rich alum base and their coach is a former NDSU assistant and I bet he would welcome the challenge of FCS football.

[Baron Sardonicus]

... their coach is a former NDSU assistant and I bet he would welcome the challenge of FCS football.

Lol. I bet he would too.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Lol. I bet he would too.


Any other "nuggets" of wisdom from you?

xwhistlex

[clenz]

They don't want to. Their endowment is for educational purposes. They are not Wofford, with a $45 million athletic scholarship endowment. They are a midwestern Catholic school that values its football game with St. John's more than it would a game against NDSU. Their president is a former administrator at the University of San Diego, a.k.a. the most beautiful school in the United States (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLjxkdh_Oy4), so there are already relationships with the PFL.

Don't make them into something they are not.
Bingo.

Their peers aren't the Dakota 4. It isn't UNI. It isn't Illinois State. It isn't WIU. Their vision isn't The Summit. Hell, it isn't even really the MVC, though the MVC is much more a peer institution conference than The Summit. The reality is their long term vision is the Big East (though that likely isn't a reality and settling for one of the little brothers of the Big East (A-10 or MVC) is likely the best they could do.

Their peers at the D1 level are places like Creighton, Marquette, Butler (though Creighton, Butler, and Marquette are MUCH larger), Drake, Bradley, Loyola, Valpo, St. Louis, etc.

Drake - private 4 year non-denominational in an urban area with and enrollment of 4,800 and a law and pharmacy school
Bradley - private 4 year non-denominational in an urban area with an endowment of 400m, an enrollment of 5,500 and a highly rated business school and doctorate in physical therapy
Loyola - private 4 year Catholic affiliated in a major urban area with an endowment of 700 million, enrollment of 16k and a highly rated law school
Valpo - private 4 year Lutheran affiliated in a just outside of a major urban area, enrollment of 4,500 and a highly business and engineering programs
Saint Louis - private 4 year Catholic affiliated in a major urban area with an endowment of 1.2 billion, enrollment of 12k and SLU ranks in the top 13 for their Health Law (#1), Entrepreneurship (#1), International Business (#11), Supply Chain Management (#13), Health Care Management (#13) programs and #37 for their Law programs

Their move to D1 has literally nothing to do with aspiring for FCS football. In fact, I'd bet football will be seen as a cost drag in the long run if things go the way they want (much the way it is seen at Butler, Georgetown and Villanova). While they might have the money/donors to dump 30 million into the football program to make it FCS scholarship ready/able I don't see that as something that fits with what is clearly their goal for alignment in the long run.

[ST_Lawson]

I have friends that are alums and St Thomas could do FCS football if they wanted to. Rich alum base and their coach is a former NDSU assistant and I bet he would welcome the challenge of FCS football.

Yeah, St. Thomas could go full-scholarship if they wanted to, but the question is...do they?

It's just like the Ivy League. In terms of endowments, the lowest Ivy League school (Brown) has an endowment larger than 9 of the 14 Big 10 schools, and 4 of the Ivy League schools (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn) have endowments larger than the wealthiest Big 10 school (U of Michigan system).
Could the Ivy League go FBS "en masse" if they wanted to...absolutely. They have the money, they have wealthy donors, they have the political "pull" to make it happen. At this point though, that is not where their priorities lie.

Unless someone happens to be personal friends with the higher-ups in charge at St. Thomas, I don't think there's any way to know what their eventual goal is. And even what their goal is now could change depending on how things go once they're in DI and if the administration changes.


Their peers at the D1 level are places like Creighton, Marquette, Butler (though Creighton, Butler, and Marquette are MUCH larger), Drake, Bradley, Loyola, Valpo, St. Louis, etc.

Drake - private 4 year non-denominational in an urban area with and enrollment of 4,800 and a law and pharmacy school
Bradley - private 4 year non-denominational in an urban area with an endowment of 400m, an enrollment of 5,500 and a highly rated business school and doctorate in physical therapy
Loyola - private 4 year Catholic affiliated in a major urban area with an endowment of 700 million, enrollment of 16k and a highly rated law school
Valpo - private 4 year Lutheran affiliated in a just outside of a major urban area, enrollment of 4,500 and a highly business and engineering programs
Saint Louis - private 4 year Catholic affiliated in a major urban area with an endowment of 1.2 billion, enrollment of 12k and SLU ranks in the top 13 for their Health Law (#1), Entrepreneurship (#1), International Business (#11), Supply Chain Management (#13), Health Care Management (#13) programs and #37 for their Law programs

I agree with all of what you said, although I wouldn't say Creighton, Butler, and Marquette are much larger.

St. Thomas has an enrollment of around 10k (10,035 listed for fall of 2018)
Creighton has 8,910
Butler has ~4,500
Marquette has ~11,800

You already mentioned the others, and it looks like only Marquette, Loyola, and Saint Louis are larger, and none of them are significantly larger.

[clenz]

Yeah, St. Thomas could go full-scholarship if they wanted to, but the question is...do they?

It's just like the Ivy League. In terms of endowments, the lowest Ivy League school (Brown) has an endowment larger than 9 of the 14 Big 10 schools, and 4 of the Ivy League schools (Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn) have endowments larger than the wealthiest Big 10 school (U of Michigan system).
Could the Ivy League go FBS "en masse" if they wanted to...absolutely. They have the money, they have wealthy donors, they have the political "pull" to make it happen. At this point though, that is not where their priorities lie.

Unless someone happens to be personal friends with the higher-ups in charge at St. Thomas, I don't think there's any way to know what their eventual goal is. And even what their goal is now could change depending on how things go once they're in DI and if the administration changes.



I agree with all of what you said, although I wouldn't say Creighton, Butler, and Marquette are much larger.

St. Thomas has an enrollment of around 10k (10,035 listed for fall of 2018)
Creighton has 8,910
Butler has ~4,500
Marquette has ~11,800

You already mentioned the others, and it looks like only Marquette, Loyola, and Saint Louis are larger, and none of them are significantly larger.I was speaking in terms of national notoriety, and even international. SLU has a full fledge campus in Spain. They have more alums in New York than they do anywhere in the Midwest. It's why SLU will NEVER join the MVC, even if it makes 100000000000% sense to do so. They don't view themselves as a Midwest school. They are an East Coast school with an East Coast mindset, that just happens to be located in St Louis.

[Baron Sardonicus]

It's why SLU will NEVER join the MVC, even if it makes 100000000000% sense to do so. They don't view themselves as a Midwest school. They are an East Coast school with an East Coast mindset, that just happens to be located in St Louis.

Technically, they did join the MVC...about 80 years ago.

But I get your point. They had to explain the same thing to Rick Majerus, when he wanted them to return. Hard to blame their cheesehead coach for trying to get them back into a Midwestern conference.

[nodak651]

Bingo.

Their peers aren't the Dakota 4. It isn't UNI. It isn't Illinois State. It isn't WIU. Their vision isn't The Summit. Hell, it isn't even really the MVC, though the MVC is much more a peer institution conference than The Summit. The reality is their long term vision is the Big East (though that likely isn't a reality and settling for one of the little brothers of the Big East (A-10 or MVC) is likely the best they could do.

Their peers at the D1 level are places like Creighton, Marquette, Butler (though Creighton, Butler, and Marquette are MUCH larger), Drake, Bradley, Loyola, Valpo, St. Louis, etc.

Drake - private 4 year non-denominational in an urban area with and enrollment of 4,800 and a law and pharmacy school
Bradley - private 4 year non-denominational in an urban area with an endowment of 400m, an enrollment of 5,500 and a highly rated business school and doctorate in physical therapy
Loyola - private 4 year Catholic affiliated in a major urban area with an endowment of 700 million, enrollment of 16k and a highly rated law school
Valpo - private 4 year Lutheran affiliated in a just outside of a major urban area, enrollment of 4,500 and a highly business and engineering programs
Saint Louis - private 4 year Catholic affiliated in a major urban area with an endowment of 1.2 billion, enrollment of 12k and SLU ranks in the top 13 for their Health Law (#1), Entrepreneurship (#1), International Business (#11), Supply Chain Management (#13), Health Care Management (#13) programs and #37 for their Law programs

Their move to D1 has literally nothing to do with aspiring for FCS football. In fact, I'd bet football will be seen as a cost drag in the long run if things go the way they want (much the way it is seen at Butler, Georgetown and Villanova). While they might have the money/donors to dump 30 million into the football program to make it FCS scholarship ready/able I don't see that as something that fits with what is clearly their goal for alignment in the long run.

Clenz are you really that confident that they have as rock solid of a plan - for basketball - as you are implying? The move to D1 was driven largely by football, after all. I do agree that they likely do not want to dump a ton of money into football right away, but I think the same can be said for their other sports as well. I think most would agree that short term, within the next 5 years or so, they just want to make the transition as smooth as possible and establish themselves at the D1 level. I think a school like St. Thomas will make their transition with the goal of having a well rounded athletic department, without dumping all of their money into one basket - whether it be football, hockey, or... basketball.

It's interesting that none of the schools that you listed have hockey, which is a pretty big deal when it comes to building a basketball program. The only private school that I can think of with a hockey team and top tier basketball program is providence. DU seems to be the closest peer to St. Thomas that I can think of, now they do not have a football team, but they have a similar endowment, similar enrollment, they are also in a major metro, they also have hockey, and they are also conveniently in the Summit League.

With how fast this whole thing has moved, I think it would be pretty hard to believe that St. Thomas already has their sights on high major basketball, unless you are in SiouxVolley's camp and believe that St. Thomas orchestrated/faked the whole getting kicked out of their conference thing. They are just trying to get their feet back under them, but of course they are looking into the potential of all of their programs, and the potential for basketball is clear.

The one thing that I think you're missing is fan support. Do their alumni even care about basketball, and will they fundraiser for it? This is a football school that we are talking about, which, with the help of St. Johns - sold out the mls stadium at 19,500 and sold of 37k tickets at target field. Sure, they have plenty of potential in basketball, but you have to be crazy to not think they are also looking at their potential in football. If competitive, they could likely sell out the mls stadium vs all dakota schools and UNI. Most of their students/alumni are/were also mostly rich kids from mn, who tend to play on follow hockey rather than basketball. If the students and alumni aren't totally into basketball, I'm not sure the community will be showing up in mass, either. St. Thomas is a rich private school in the middle of St. Paul - they are the villains!

Bottom line - you gotta think that they are going to aim for a well rounded athletic department, and with the potential they have for quality football, basketball, and hockey programs, they will look at where they are at in a few years and make decisions at that point, when they have more data and better understanding as to what their fans will attent and support ($$$) at the D1 level. Right now, the biggest tells will be what they end up doing for the facilities - will a potential new arena be more hockey or basketball focused - will there even be a new arena - will it be a basketball only arena - will they dump money into football facilities, etc.

Also, their peers may not be the Dakota schools, but there are tons of dakota alumni in the metro, and they will get better local media coverage being associated with the summit, unless they are in the big east or a top 25 program, because fans of the dakota schools will be following it. thomas and the conference in general, and they will be watching their games and clicking on news coverage about them. Also, ticket sales from dakota schools will be a significant factor when it comes to revenue for their basketball, volleyball, and any potential football games.

[Baron Sardonicus]

St. Thomas is not moving up for any particular sport. They're moving up as the best available option, after being kicked out of their conference.

And while I wouldn't pigeonhole St. Thomas as a basketball school, they have had more success in hoops than in football. And that's saying something.

Two mbb national championships in the last decade; four 30-win seasons in the last 12 years; third highest all-time win total in the history of D-III.

While Tommie football draws a great crowd once a year, it's basketball that makes the money for FCS schools.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Clenz are you really that confident that they have as rock solid of a plan - for basketball - as you are implying? The move to D1 was driven largely by football, after all. I do agree that they likely do not want to dump a ton of money into football right away, but I think the same can be said for their other sports as well. I think most would agree that short term, within the next 5 years or so, they just want to make the transition as smooth as possible and establish themselves at the D1 level. I think a school like St. Thomas will make their transition with the goal of having a well rounded athletic department, without dumping all of their money into one basket - whether it be football, hockey, or... basketball.

It's interesting that none of the schools that you listed have hockey, which is a pretty big deal when it comes to building a basketball program. The only private school that I can think of with a hockey team and top tier basketball program is providence. DU seems to be the closest peer to St. Thomas that I can think of, now they do not have a football team, but they have a similar endowment, similar enrollment, they are also in a major metro, they also have hockey, and they are also conveniently in the Summit League.

With how fast this whole thing has moved, I think it would be pretty hard to believe that St. Thomas already has their sights on high major basketball, unless you are in SiouxVolley's camp and believe that St. Thomas orchestrated/faked the whole getting kicked out of their conference thing. They are just trying to get their feet back under them, but of course they are looking into the potential of all of their programs, and the potential for basketball is clear.

The one thing that I think you're missing is fan support. Do their alumni even care about basketball, and will they fundraiser for it? This is a football school that we are talking about, which, with the help of St. Johns - sold out the mls stadium at 19,500 and sold of 37k tickets at target field. Sure, they have plenty of potential in basketball, but you have to be crazy to not think they are also looking at their potential in football. If competitive, they could likely sell out the mls stadium vs all dakota schools and UNI. Most of their students/alumni are/were also mostly rich kids from mn, who tend to play on follow hockey rather than basketball. If the students and alumni aren't totally into basketball, I'm not sure the community will be showing up in mass, either. St. Thomas is a rich private school in the middle of St. Paul - they are the villains!

Bottom line - you gotta think that they are going to aim for a well rounded athletic department, and with the potential they have for quality football, basketball, and hockey programs, they will look at where they are at in a few years and make decisions at that point, when they have more data and better understanding as to what their fans will attent and support ($$$) at the D1 level. Right now, the biggest tells will be what they end up doing for the facilities - will a potential new arena be more hockey or basketball focused - will there even be a new arena - will it be a basketball only arena - will they dump money into football facilities, etc.

Also, their peers may not be the Dakota schools, but there are tons of dakota alumni in the metro, and they will get better local media coverage being associated with the summit, unless they are in the big east or a top 25 program, because fans of the dakota schools will be following it. thomas and the conference in general, and they will be watching their games and clicking on news coverage about them. Also, ticket sales from dakota schools will be a significant factor when it comes to revenue for their basketball, volleyball, and any potential football games.


He's not in the "know"...he is guessing. I'm just guessing also but from listening to local radio guys talk and having friends alums of St Thomas, they could easily go FCS if they wanted to. Will they? I don't know.

Hockey will be interesting. Will they go WCHA or CCHA now.

[Baron Sardonicus]

...they could easily go FCS if they wanted to. Will they? I don't know.

They'll be FCS as soon as they get the waiver allowing them to reclassify as D-I. Their desire to go FCS is a given.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

They'll be FCS as soon as they get the waiver allowing them to reclassify as D-I. Their desire to go FCS is a given.


I should have written scholly football. They could do that if desired.

Non scholly in the Pioneer (if they are accepted) would be a lot of traveling.

[Baron Sardonicus]

Yes, lots of travel. Ask Julie Sullivan which one will be her favorite trip.

[clenz]

St. Thomas is not moving up for any particular sport. They're moving up as the best available option, after being kicked out of their conference.

And while I wouldn't pigeonhole St. Thomas as a basketball school, they have had more success in hoops than in football. And that's saying something.

Two mbb national championships in the last decade; four 30-win seasons in the last 12 years; third highest all-time win total in the history of D-III.

While Tommie football draws a great crowd once a year, it's basketball that makes the money for FCS schools.
This.

I never pigeon holed them as a basketball school, rather a school looking for peers. They've been trying to move straight to D1 for a long damn time, and it isn't because they desperately want FCS football. Are they trying to be Marquette or Creighton in basketball? No. Them aiming to be Bradley, Drake, Loyola is certainly easy to believe. Trying to be aligned with schools that fit with their university vision. They would be the first school willing to play FCS football without aligning themselves with a conference of likeminded/visioned institutions.

Villanova - FCS football with teams they've played since the beginning but house their other sports and university in the Big East with similar academic and athletic profiles

Georgetown - FCS football that plays in the Patriot with programs they are academically similar too, and house everything else in the Big East with similar academic and athletic profiles

The PFL was created because of private schools being forced to carry D1 football while aligning their football programs with similar universities while maintaining ties with their current conferences that have similar academic and athletic profiles.

The NEC is regional likeminded private universities

And as pointed out, outside of NDSU, Montana, Montana State, and JMU you're money and ability to brand nationally isn't found in FCS football. It's through basketball. NCAA shares from the tournament. The TV time from a tournament, conference tournament, NIT, etc.

Maybe St Thomas only wants the Summit. I highly doubt that to be the case.

[uni88]

I voted yes, not real sure why other than it is a pure troll move directed at the BB snobs. xlolx

I voted no to cancel your vote and to troll butthurt football snowflakes.

xwhistlex

[JacksFan40]

If the MVC just went to 11 by adding Murray State and went to a 20 game schedule that would solve a lot of problems. It would give us 6 football schools which would be enough for an auto bid if all the Summit schools and YSU ever left (worse case scenario).

A new northern Big Sky with the 4 Dakota's, 2 Idaho's, 2 Montana's, Weber St, and EWU would probably be a better fit for the Dakota schools long term. It would also end up being the best conference in FCS by far. Being in a conference with UMKC, UNO, ORU, UST, Denver, and even WIU seems like something that they are willing to put up with for now because they have to for automatic bids.
If that happened you may as well go FBS, call it the WAC, and invite Wyoming.

[uni88]

You really think this conference would be that bad? It would have the MVC publics and almost all of the schools in the conference are large state schools with decent to great fan support, and if the conf tournament was in Sioux Falls it would already be an improvement from what the Valley currently has. UND could also play some games at the Ralph if required. I don't really care either way though, because I don't see this happening.

For who? Would fans from Illinois State, Southern Illinois, Indiana State, Missouri State and Murray State travel to wonderful Sioux Falls? Arch Madness vs. Fallsapalooza?

[clenz]

For who? Would fans from Illinois State, Southern Illinois, Indiana State, Missouri State and Murray State travel to wonderful Sioux Falls? Arch Madness vs. Fallsapalooza?
I grew up going to Sioux Falls for fun.

Arch Madness and downtown St Louis ****ing obliterates anything that Sioux Falls has to offer.

Sioux Falls is Des Moines but a quarter the size

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

I grew up going to Sioux Falls for fun.

Arch Madness and downtown St Louis ****ing obliterates anything that Sioux Falls has to offer.

Sioux Falls is Des Moines but a quarter the size



Sioux Falls population in 2018 was 181,883

Des Moines population in 2019 was 214,237


Hardly a "quarter of the size".....

[uni88]

Sioux Falls population in 2018 was 181,883

Des Moines population in 2019 was 214,237

Hardly a "quarter of the size".....

Metro ...
Sioux Falls - 265,653
Des Moines - 655,409

Des Moines is yuge compared to Sioux Falls. xcoffeex

[JacksFan40]

Metro ...
Sioux Falls - 265,653
Des Moines - 655,409

Des Moines is yuge compared to Sioux Falls. xcoffeex
Sioux Falls metro is growing really really fast. It’s probably getting around 300k now, still not even half of Des Moines but it’s getting there.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Metro ...
Sioux Falls - 265,653
Des Moines - 655,409

Des Moines is yuge compared to Sioux Falls. xcoffeex


xlolx

That is a 6 county area around DM for that population....xcoffeex

City to city comparison is pretty darn close in population....xcoffeex

[cx500d]

I grew up going to Sioux Falls for fun.

Arch Madness and downtown St Louis ****ing obliterates anything that Sioux Falls has to offer.

Sioux Falls is Des Moines but a quarter the size
What a sad childhood.

[mvfcfan]

I don't understand all the slobbering over St Thomas. I had never even heard of them until the Summit League invited them. I get that they might have some potential, but acting like they are the next Creighton because they won at the D3 level is laughable.

[cx500d]

I don't understand all the slobbering over St Thomas. I had never even heard of them until the Summit League invited them. I get that they might have some potential, but acting like they are the next Creighton because they won at the D3 level is laughable.
Is creighton a thing?

[TheKingpin28]

I don't understand all the slobbering over St Thomas. I had never even heard of them until the Summit League invited them. I get that they might have some potential, but acting like they are the next Creighton because they won at the D3 level is laughable.If it weren't for the Gooferes, they would be the love child of WCCO

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

[clenz]

xlolx

That is a 6 county area around DM for that population....xcoffeex

City to city comparison is pretty darn close in population....xcoffeex

Using Des Moines Proper for the population is dumb. Des Moines, like any true city, has so many suburbs and other connected areas that are impossible to differentiate from DSM proper. 99% of the time the people say they are going to DSM they are actually going to West Des Moines or Johnston or Waukee, Urbandale, etc.

It would be like talking about Fargo but excluding West Fargo or Moorhead in that discussion. When I take my yearly trip up there I say "I'm going to Fargo" yet I spend very little ofy time actually "in Fargo"

It's not close, at all. The two are world's apart in terms of size and lifestyle.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Using Des Moines Proper for the population is dumb. Des Moines, like any true city, has so many suburbs and other connected areas that are impossible to differentiate from DSM proper. 99% of the time the people say they are going to DSM they are actually going to West Des Moines or Johnston or Waukee, Urbandale, etc.

It would be like talking about Fargo but excluding West Fargo or Moorhead in that discussion. When I take my yearly trip up there I say "I'm going to Fargo" yet I spend very little ofy time actually "in Fargo"

It's not close, at all. The two are world's apart in terms of size and lifestyle.


Your example is dumb. I've have lived in Fargo. I don't say I lived in W Fargo, Moorhead, Horace, DGF, Hawley, Barnesville, Oxbow, Harwood, Sabin, Davenport, Mapleton, Casselton all at the same time.....xlolx.....xcrazyx

It would be me saying I'm from McClusky, ND (town of 400) and include the 6 counties around me for a total population of 200K+....xlolx

Babble whatever you want to junior, DM is a little bigger than SF but not 4X the size....xlolx....so according to you with SF being a "quarter" of the size of DM, then DM should be close to 800K.....boy I didn't know that...xlolx

[BisonFan02]

Haha, **** that ****. Build the Summit league as an all sports conference and punt the boat anchor MVC football schools to the curb. Outside of UNI (which is slowly becoming debatable) and occasionally ISUr, they are complete dog****.

The Dakota schools need a healthy Summit for D1 viability...those 4 schools are a good start. Build from there.

[HAL_9000]

One thing to consider is what would the conference of the remaining private MVC schools even look like? It would unquestionably be worse, especially if the new Summit league kept St. Thomas, Denver, and Omaha. I think the Summit schools would see greatly improved recruiting, and the recruiting for Drake, Evansville, Bradley, etc would drop off. The new Summit league would have 10x the conference tournament, even if held in Iowa, which would also help with recruiting, and the potential is way higher than the current MVC.

Disagree.

[HAL_9000]

Did Indiana State get upgraded to a "Flagship University" in Indiana?

I don't know? I don't even read the USA Today that I can't seem to cancel.

Maybe it's ISUb's prowess on the football field or all those NCAA bids that make this make sense.

Larry Byrd was pretty cool so there is that. I like the movie "Dazed and confused" the 70's seem awesome.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Haha, **** that ****. Build the Summit league as an all sports conference and punt the boat anchor MVC football schools to the curb. Outside of UNI (which is slowly becoming debatable) and occasionally ISUr, they are complete dog****.

The Dakota schools need a healthy Summit for D1 viability...those 4 schools are a good start. Build from there.


The Summit does have a pretty good "core" going down I-29 now. If St Thomas decides on FCS scholarship football that would make 6 schools in the Summit with football and the minimum for an AQ I think. The only problem would be finding OOC games. You would need to find 6 every year and in some years 7. With this scenario, Larsen should try and get a FBS game every year....although he has stated he does.

[TheKingpin28]

Sioux Falls population in 2018 was 181,883

Des Moines population in 2019 was 214,237


Hardly a "quarter of the size".....You are arguing with someone who can never be wrong. I guess his math for population size is the same as my math for driving from Iowa City to Waterloo/Cedar Falls.

Sent from my SM-J727V using Tapatalk

[mvfcfan]

Is creighton a thing?

They were ranked in the top 10 this past season and are usually in the top 10 for attendance each year. St Thomas will be lucky to ever reach Drake's level and that's not saying much.

[POD Knows]

You are arguing with someone who can never be wrong. I guess his math for population size is the same as my math for driving from Iowa City to Waterloo/Cedar Falls.

Sent from my SM-J727V using TapatalkThat is an excellent analogy and balls on. :D

[SDFS]

31679

I think one of the items that many of the MVFC partners might not understand about the SL is the considerable changes and growth of the public schools. I have attached a chart comparing the average public school overtime for each conference. The number charted is revenue not including student fee, schools funds or other from the USA Today Athletic Department Database (Revenue categories: Tickets Sales, Contributions and Rights/Licensing). In addition, I have include a small table annotating major school changes, conference additions and conference subtractions. As you can see, the Summit League public schools had 1/4 of the revenue of Missouri Valley public schools in 2005. Today, SL generates more revenue in those categories that the Missouri Valley peers.

[SDFS]

Here is a simple table with the individual school data for 2018-2019.
31680

[uni88]

That is an excellent analogy and balls on. :D

What about the obtuseness of trying to dismiss metropolitan area when comparing population?

[clenz]

What about the obtuseness of trying to dismiss metropolitan area when comparing population?Come on, we all know when someone says they are going to Minneapolis they are only going specifically to Minneapolis proper. They aren't going to St. Paul, Bloomington, Brooklyn Park, Plymouth, Maple Grove, Woodbury, Lakeville, Blaine, Eagan, Eden Prairie, Coon Rapids, Burnsville, Apple Valley, Minnetonka Edina, St Louis Park, Shakopee, or any of those other cities.


When people go to New York City we know they are ONLY going to the area in red on this map, no where else

https://www.irenenorth.com/writings/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/real-estate-new-york-city.jpg



We all know when people are saying "Go to Des Moines" they are only talking specifically about the eastern/southeastern portion of the Metro, never mind that like 70% of the population and businesses that people actually go to aren't actually in DSM Proper and in terms of schools it's the non DSM Proper schools that actually have the largest enrollments and the DSM Schools that have the smaller enrollments in that area.

https://res.cloudinary.com/simpleview/image/upload/v1575577354/clients/desmoines/Catch_Des_Moines_2020_Planners_Guide_Greater_Des_M oines_Map_12_5_19_02b815e2-f0bf-4c4d-b730-7a7ce2c1350e.jpg

[POD Knows]

What about the obtuseness of trying to dismiss metropolitan area when comparing population?What about it? I was mostly just poking fun at a previous back and forth on how long it took to get from Cedar Rapids to Cedar Falls.

[mvfcfan]

To me anything along or inside the freeway loop of I-35/I-80, US 65, and SR 5 is definitely Des Moines. I've drove on 35 through Des Moines several times and I had no idea that it wasn't in city limits.

[clenz]

To me anything along or inside the freeway loop of I-35/I-80, US 65, and SR 5 is definitely Des Moines. I've drove on 35 through Des Moines several times and I had no idea that it wasn't in city limits.
The irony is neither 35 or 80 actually ever touch "Des Moines" yet no one goes "Take 80 through Altoona, continue straight and you'll meet up with 35 on the south side of Ankeny. Keep going straight through Johnston and it will curve south thrown Urbandale. Keep on going thrugh Clive and then you'll be able to get back on 80 in West Des Moines just after you get through Clive.". It's always "Just take 80 through Des Moines"

I'm not sure 65 is actually ever "in" Des Moines and 5 is just barely inside proper limits

[POD Knows]

The irony is neither 35 or 80 actually ever touch "Des Moines" yet no one goes "Take 80 through Altoona, continue straight and you'll meet up with 35 on the south side of Ankeny. Keep going straight through Johnston and it will curve south thrown Urbandale. Keep on going thrugh Clive and then you'll be able to get back on 80 in West Des Moines just after you get through Clive.". It's always "Just take 80 through Des Moines"

I'm not sure 65 is actually ever "in" Des Moines and 5 is just barely inside proper limitsIt is such a small village that the major highways don't even go through it, at least in Minneapolis, I 94 and 35W go through Minneapolis. xlolx

[BisonFan02]

Are we seriously debating the merits of Des Moines versus Sioux Falls like someone in NYC would give a flying **** between the two of them? :D

An all sports MVFC is NEVER going to happen...the only way it happens is if the MVC members, as a whole, decide to go non-scholly and absorb some Pioneer members either already in the MVC or non-football targets.

Here's your MVC football then:

UNI
ISUr
ISUb
SIU
MSU
Drake
Valpo

Then add Horizon members Youngstown State and Robert Morris.....or whatever to get 9.....or poach basketball power Dayton....maybe Morehead State....etc.

[cx500d]

Using Des Moines Proper for the population is dumb. Des Moines, like any true city, has so many suburbs and other connected areas that are impossible to differentiate from DSM proper. 99% of the time the people say they are going to DSM they are actually going to West Des Moines or Johnston or Waukee, Urbandale, etc.

It would be like talking about Fargo but excluding West Fargo or Moorhead in that discussion. When I take my yearly trip up there I say "I'm going to Fargo" yet I spend very little ofy time actually "in Fargo"

It's not close, at all. The two are world's apart in terms of size and lifestyle.

Just like the movie

[cx500d]

Come on, we all know when someone says they are going to Minneapolis they are only going specifically to Minneapolis proper. They aren't going to St. Paul, Bloomington, Brooklyn Park, Plymouth, Maple Grove, Woodbury, Lakeville, Blaine, Eagan, Eden Prairie, Coon Rapids, Burnsville, Apple Valley, Minnetonka Edina, St Louis Park, Shakopee, or any of those other cities.


When people go to New York City we know they are ONLY going to the area in red on this map, no where else





We all know when people are saying "Go to Des Moines" they are only talking specifically about the eastern/southeastern portion of the Metro, never mind that like 70% of the population and businesses that people actually go to aren't actually in DSM Proper and in terms of schools it's the non DSM Proper schools that actually have the largest enrollments and the DSM Schools that have the smaller enrollments in that area.

https://res.cloudinary.com/simpleview/image/upload/v1575577354/clients/desmoines/Catch_Des_Moines_2020_Planners_Guide_Greater_Des_M oines_Map_12_5_19_02b815e2-f0bf-4c4d-b730-7a7ce2c1350e.jpg

I specifically go to Ankeny to enjoy all the nicer Casey gas stations.

[uni88]

What about it? I was mostly just poking fun at a previous back and forth on how long it took to get from Cedar Rapids to Cedar Falls.

Nodaks are like insecure Texans. Everything about the Dakotas has to be bigger and better or at least equal to things anywhere else. Sioux Falls is similar in size to Des Moines. An NDSU education is similar to an Ivy League education. NDSU has had lots of running backs with better runs than Adrian Peterson's. xlolx

[nodak651]

Here is a simple table with the individual school data for 2018-2019.
31680
Does this attachment work for anyone?

[SDFS]

Does this attachment work for anyone?

Sorry try this one...

31683

Here some information documenting the percentage of men sports budgets toward Basketball, Football and All Other Sports. Since some of the conversation in this thread was discussing basketball - I added what I could find on B-Ball coaches salaries also. It was more informational than anything just to see what each school emphasized for sports offerings. Is it a basketball school, football school or other? Just trying to get a better understanding of MVFC. The odd thing to me was all the MV schools are nearly identical in terms of football budgets. I think the only outliner was ISU-B.

31684

[POD Knows]

Sorry try this one...

31683

Here some information documenting the percentage of men sports budgets toward Basketball, Football and All Other Sports. Since some of the conversation in this thread was discussing basketball - I added what I could find on B-Ball coaches salaries also. It was more informational than anything just to see what each school emphasized for sports offerings. Is it a basketball school, football school or other? Just trying to get a better understanding of MVFC. The odd thing to me was all the MV schools are nearly identical in terms of football budgets. I think the only outliner was ISU-B.

31684Nope, try again. You have to use Imgur or something to post pics here.

[SDFS]

OK, did this work?

31685

[nodak651]

OK, did this work?

31685

Yes, kind of. I can see the picture, but it isn't the one with individual school data. We could already see this picture in your first post. The second attachment that you tried to post was the one that didn't work.

[SDFS]

Yes, kind of. I can see the picture, but it isn't the one with individual school data. We could already see this picture in your first post. The second attachment that you tried to post was the one that didn't work.

Yes, I have been doing a little trouble shooting with this site. It looks like you can add an image two ways. 1) Is uploading from you local machine and 2) Is loading from a secondary site. The first time I loaded the two files, I used option 1. When I looked at the posts. It was clear that the first one was working and displayed a small thumb. But, the second one remained as a link. Which I thought was odd and of course you later notified me that it was not working.

So, I decided to try option 2 which was loading off of a secondary site. When I tried that, the first image loaded fine again, but the second image actually failed due to file size. So, I think this application has a bug, if you load a file that is too large from your local machine it provides a link but it does not function. If you load that same file from a secondary site - you get an actual error. So, long story short. I need to compress a couple of files and load them. I will try getting that in place shortly.

[Bisonoline]

Come on, we all know when someone says they are going to Minneapolis they are only going specifically to Minneapolis proper. They aren't going to St. Paul, Bloomington, Brooklyn Park, Plymouth, Maple Grove, Woodbury, Lakeville, Blaine, Eagan, Eden Prairie, Coon Rapids, Burnsville, Apple Valley, Minnetonka Edina, St Louis Park, Shakopee, or any of those other cities.


When people go to New York City we know they are ONLY going to the area in red on this map, no where else

https://www.irenenorth.com/writings/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/real-estate-new-york-city.jpg



We all know when people are saying "Go to Des Moines" they are only talking specifically about the eastern/southeastern portion of the Metro, never mind that like 70% of the population and businesses that people actually go to aren't actually in DSM Proper and in terms of schools it's the non DSM Proper schools that actually have the largest enrollments and the DSM Schools that have the smaller enrollments in that area.

https://res.cloudinary.com/simpleview/image/upload/v1575577354/clients/desmoines/Catch_Des_Moines_2020_Planners_Guide_Greater_Des_M oines_Map_12_5_19_02b815e2-f0bf-4c4d-b730-7a7ce2c1350e.jpg

Unless they take 235. xnodx