When Richmond Wanted To Join The ACC

[DFW HOYA]

Richmond Times-Dispatch article on Richmond's ambitions to join the ACC.

After they were told no, the same question went to the Big East. Apparently, the same response followed.

https://www.richmond.com/sports/local/jerry-lindquists-sports-memories-the-ncaa-don-shula-and-michael-jordan/article_f0c66fd1-3680-539b-a623-33de5fe5e0c0.html

[Laker]

Richmond Times-Dispatch article on Richmond's ambitions to join the ACC.

After they were told no, the same question went to the Big East. Apparently, the same response followed.

https://www.richmond.com/sports/local/jerry-lindquists-sports-memories-the-ncaa-don-shula-and-michael-jordan/article_f0c66fd1-3680-539b-a623-33de5fe5e0c0.html

That entire column was worth the read.

[Derby City Duke]

That entire column was worth the read.

Jerry Lindquist is still a great writer/columnist, even though he's been retired from the Richmond paper for years. Richmond used to have a morning (Times Dispatch) and evening (News Leader) daily until the NL shuttered in 1992 after 104 years of publication. The TD has its traces its origins back to 1850. Surprising given that Henricus, which later became Henrico County (borders Richmond on the north side of the James River), is one of the 4 original shires of Virginia -- founded in 1611 as the colonists began to push west from Jamestown.

[Sader87]

Interesting column in total.

I've always felt that U of Richmond and Holy Cross were/are very similar in many ways institutionally (size, academic-level etc) through the years with regards to how they can/could compete at the higher levels of college athletics....primarily in football and basketball. Always interesting to look back and see how different schools responded to the changes in the college athletic world ovah the years.

Why did Richmond choose to leave the SoCon in 1975?

[citdog]

Why did Richmond choose to leave the SoCon in 1975?

Richmond, VMI, and William and Mary left because of the admission of App, Marshall, Chatt, and WCU. VMI came back after a sit down between the general officers who run The Citadel and their school.

[Sader87]

Richmond, VMI, and William and Mary left because of the admission of App, Marshall, Chatt, and WCU. VMI came back after a sit down between the general officers who run The Citadel and their school.

What was their concern with this? Conference becoming too large? Schools not at their (perceived anyway) academic level?

[citdog]

What was their concern with this? Conference becoming too large? Schools not at their (perceived anyway) academic level?

The second thing you said.

[Sitting Bull]

Actually, VMI didn’t leave. They stayed in the So Con for a number of years after until they decided to shift to the Big South. It was a competitive decision, believe in the 90s. They later came back to the So Con.

It was W&M, UR and East Carolina that all left together in the mid 70s. All three had annual schedules balanced with ACC and Eastern 1As OOC like Pitt, Va Tech, WVU, Navy and Temple. The addition of App and ETSU really weren’t the direction understandably that any of them wanted to follow, at that time.

The only one of the three that was actually close to joining the ACC was W&M during the Holtz years. It was W&Ms admin that squelched the move. The votes to join from the other members (only 7 then) were in hand.

[Sandlapper Spike]

VMI actually announced it was leaving the SoCon on the same day that William and Mary made its decision (June 17, 1976). However, VMI reversed course and stayed. That announcement came on January 23, 1977, a few months before the school was scheduled to depart the conference.

[kdinva]

VMI actually announced it was leaving the SoCon on the same day that William and Mary made its decision (June 17, 1976). However, VMI reversed course and stayed. That announcement came on January 23, 1977, a few months before the school was scheduled to depart the conference.

First I have heard of that, and I was in school there in Jan. '77

[Sandlapper Spike]

It was reported by the AP and other sources. Here are a couple of articles -- one from June 1976, the other from January 1977.

31596


31597


Maybe not the easiest thing to read, but that's the best I can do right now.

[ElCid]

It was reported by the AP and other sources. Here are a couple of articles -- one from June 1976, the other from January 1977.

31596


31597


Maybe not the easiest thing to read, but that's the best I can do right now.

Bad links.

[Sandlapper Spike]

Okay, so that didn't work. Oh well.

The links were actually jpegs from newspaper articles. I guess the upload didn't work.

Let me see if I can try something else.

[ElCid]

Okay, so that didn't work. Oh well.

The links were actually jpegs from newspaper articles. I guess the upload didn't work.

Let me see if I can try something else.

I have had the same issue as of late, trying to upload jpegs.

[DFW HOYA]

The only one of the three that was actually close to joining the ACC was W&M during the Holtz years. It was W&Ms admin that squelched the move. The votes to join from the other members (only 7 then) were in hand.

Interesting--what was the plan with Cary Field, which would have been way too small for games? Was W&M considering a new stadium closer to I-64 with a move?

[Sitting Bull]

This was 1970 when Cary had larger end zones and capacity over 15,000. At that time, Scott Stadium at UVA was 28,000 (never filled), Wake about the same, Byrd in MD at 30,000. Stadium size wasn’t so much an issue at that juncture. W&M did build W&M Hall in 1970 for basketball (10,000) toward this which at that time would have been the largest ACC arena outside Cole FH at Maryland and NC State.

I had also heard that Holtz had discussed a new stadium to be built near Lake Matoaca on campus. W&M still has a fair amount of wooded property.

In the early 80s, there were plans to expand Cary in prep for the upcoming requirements on stadium size to remain 1A. This was never implemented as W&M at that time was content to pursue an “Ivy” model and became a founding member of the Colonial League (which became the Patriot) with HC, Colgate, Bucknell, Lehigh and Lafayette. Shortly later W&M withdrew before the League began due to playoff and scholarship issues, eventually settling with the arrangement in the Yankee/A10/CAA model with UR, JMU, Delaware and Villanova. Took some time though that has been the perfect fit for football at W&M.

[DFW HOYA]

Thanks for the context. What the PL diehards don't understand is that W&M is never coming back, nor Villanova or UR. In the meantime, the league continues to atrophy selling a brand of football that grows less competitive every year. Or as Craig Haley noted, "the league's 25-73 record against FCS nonconference opponents the last three seasons is troubling." That may be an understatement.

[Go Green]

Thanks for the context. What the PL diehards don't understand is that W&M is never coming back, nor Villanova or UR. In the meantime, the league continues to atrophy selling a brand of football that grows less competitive every year. Or as Craig Haley noted, "the league's 25-73 record against FCS nonconference opponents the last three seasons is troubling." That may be an understatement.

Don't blame Colgate. Other than last season, they've had little to apologize for...

[Sader87]

I think both Richmond and W&M are little too far south for PL football expansion....I wouldn't rule out Villanova joining the PL for football moving forward...good fit both institutionally and geographically.

[GreenGlasses]

What was their concern with this? Conference becoming too large? Schools not at their (perceived anyway) academic level?


The second thing you said.


Richmond, VMI, and William and Mary left because of the admission of App, Marshall, Chatt, and WCU. VMI came back after a sit down between the general officers who run The Citadel and their school.

You left out ETSU. And as we set now 3 of those 5 schools can now laugh at that reasoning and those 3 have passed all of the SoCon originals by. Those 3 are UTC, ETSU and Marshall. Also the newer programs in Samford and Mercer already have higher standings.

Let's break the schools down by their Carnegie Classifications

Baccalaureate Colleges
Furman
Wofford
VMI

What we have here are 2 small private colleges and a military school masquerading as a private with no or very few doctorial degrees. That's what designates them as Baccalaureate. With very few doctoral programs that means very little growth in the size of academic diversity.

Master's Colleges & Universities: Larger Programs
The Citadel
Western Carolina
App State

These 3 schools have many more programs but don't have the doctorial programs and/or research funding. Most IAA or DII schools belong to this category.

R2: Doctoral Universities: High Research Activity
UNCG
Mercer
ETSU
Marshall

R3: Doctoral Professional Universities
UTC
Samford

The newest Carnegie Classification that was implemented in 2018. These programs have diverse fields and at lest 18 million dollars in research grants but not enough doctorial programs.

Also those who left: Richmond is a Baccalaureate University and its growth and Carnegie Classification has never changed and doesn't look like it will anytime soon. Both W&M and ECU are R2 Classifications.

Stagnant academic growth in the last 40 years: App State, Furman, The Citadel, VMI, Wofford, Western Carolina
Significant academic growth in the last 40 years: UTC, Samford, Mercer, Marshall, ETSU, UNCG, W&M, ECU

Bolded Universities Are Considered The Reason Other Universities Left

[DFW HOYA]

"Davidson’s decision to get out of the scholarship football business didn’t go over very well with some of the other league members, but by then there were other issues too. The looming I-A/I-AA split was one of them. It was a key factor in East Carolina and Richmond leaving the SoCon, and Richmond’s departure also led to William & Mary and VMI leaving — but then the folks in Lexington changed their minds, and VMI stayed...The departing schools tried to form a new “Big Conference“, which would have included Richmond, East Carolina, William & Mary, VMI, Southern Mississippi, and South Carolina. They were hoping to add two or more of Virginia Tech, West Virginia, and Florida State."

https://thesportsarsenal.com/2013/05/07/conference-realignment-socon-style-history-repeats-itself/

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Y4ksAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2PoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4982,4718130&dq

[ElCid]

You left out ETSU. And as we set now 3 of those 5 schools can now laugh at that reasoning and those 3 have passed all of the SoCon originals by. Those 3 are UTC, ETSU and Marshall. Also the newer programs in Samford and Mercer already have higher standings.

Let's break the schools down by their Carnegie Classifications

Baccalaureate Colleges
Furman
Wofford
VMI

What we have here are 2 small private colleges and a military school masquerading as a private with no or very few doctorial degrees. That's what designates them as Baccalaureate. With very few doctoral programs that means very little growth in the size of academic diversity.

Master's Colleges & Universities: Larger Programs
The Citadel
Western Carolina
App State

These 3 schools have many more programs but don't have the doctorial programs and/or research funding. Most IAA or DII schools belong to this category.

R2: Doctoral Universities: High Research Activity
UNCG
Mercer
ETSU
Marshall

R3: Doctoral Professional Universities
UTC
Samford

The newest Carnegie Classification that was implemented in 2018. These programs have diverse fields and at lest 18 million dollars in research grants but not enough doctorial programs.

Also those who left: Richmond is a Baccalaureate University and its growth and Carnegie Classification has never changed and doesn't look like it will anytime soon. Both W&M and ECU are R2 Classifications.

Stagnant academic growth in the last 40 years: App State, Furman, The Citadel, VMI, Wofford, Western Carolina
Significant academic growth in the last 40 years: UTC, Samford, Mercer, Marshall, ETSU, UNCG, W&M, ECU

Bolded Universities Are Considered The Reason Other Universities Left

I hate to burst your bubble, but this is very silly reasoning and has little to do with football. The purpose of the schools is not necessarily to grow in it's level of academic degree offerings or establish ever larger research programs, but to do what their charters and/or missions are, and do it well. And, news flash, they all do a pretty good job last time I checked. No, better than just good. Now, if they become stagnant in the quality of performing their missions, ok, otherwise this line of thought is irrelevant. And I won't even touch on endowments.

Also at the time App St, ETSU and WCU, at least, we're a lot smaller and only a couple decades removed from being nothing more than small teaching schools. Of course there was concern. That many of these schools have grown is great. But it still was a valid concern at the time.