UMass and FBS

[TexasTerror]

Blah, blah, blah! FBS this and FBS that. UMass needs to stick to where it's successful and what works...it's called FCS...
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UMass ready to tackle big boys?

By Alex Beam, Globe Columnist | June 11, 2007

It's impossible to write about the love-hate relationship between academe and big-time football without invoking former University of Chicago president Robert Maynard Hutchins's famous line: "Football has the same relation to education as bullfighting has to agriculture." Hutchins eliminated UC's loss-plagued football program in 1939, ceding the oval "C" logo and the sobriquet "Monsters of the Midway" to the Chicago Bears.

UMass is thinking of doing the opposite, upgrading its successful, money-losing, I-AA football program to the big time, I-A. That's where the Boston Colleges and the UConns play. They have the big stadiums, they have the TV contracts, they get end-of-season bowl swag, and -- in theory anyway -- football can make money for the university.

At a private UMass trustees' dinner last month, reports student trustee Mishy Leiblum , "one of the most disheartening parts was that 25 percent of the time was taken up talking about athletics, and specifically football." Raising the profile of UMass football has been talked about for years -- when Myra Kraft was on the board, Foxborough was bruited as a possible venue for I-A football games -- and again last fall. "It got killed pretty quickly," Leiblum says. "It's a ridiculous proposal that would cost a tremendous amount of money that would be better spent on the core functions of the university."

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2007/06/11/umass_ready_to_tackle_big_boys/

[Grizalltheway]

I guess if it will turn their program into a money-maker they should look into it, but if I were a UMass fan, I certainly would be against it.

[saint0917]

TT, you have to consider the source, Boston media doesn't know anything about Umass, and even less about Umass football, and even less about FCS.

[DFW HOYA]

This revisits a question I've raised before--where in I-A/FBS would they play?

The Big East is on record saying they don't want I-AA upgrades. The MAC is full. What's left?

[saint0917]

This revisits a question I've raised before--where in I-A/FBS would they play?

The Big East is on record saying they don't want I-AA upgrades. The MAC is full. What's left?

Nothing, because Umass isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

[BearsCountry]

At a private UMass trustees' dinner last month, reports student trustee Mishy Leiblum , "one of the most disheartening parts was that 25 percent of the time was taken up talking about athletics, and specifically football."

This chick needs to be slapped.

[Grizalltheway]

Nothing, because Umass isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Well, as a fan of FCS in general, I say xhurrayx xhurrayx to that. xthumbsupx

[Umass74]

There is a BIG agenda in the Globe article. The Globe is consistently anti-UMass athletics.

They wish to preserve BC's status as the only BCS team in Mass. They periodically run negative articles about UMass athletics (any time we look like we are gaining traction in the state).

UMass football is doing good at this time. So expect the negative articles to continue. xnonono2x

[BearsCountry]

If UMass could get into Big East, BC would become in after thought in the Northeast IMO.

[813Jag]

The Big East is crowded as it is. Somebody would have to leave 9 in football and 17 in basketball. xeekx

[Col Hogan]

The Money will not flow from the legislature...and I doubt I'll be increasing my donation that much any time soon...xrolleyesx

There is no good conference waiting with open arms for UMass to make the jump...xrulesx

I say UMass should stay where it is...increase the fan base by building a consistant program...and rule FCS...xpeacex

[saint0917]

The Money will not flow from the legislature...and I doubt I'll be increasing my donation that much any time soon...xrolleyesx

For Democrats their pretty stingy with the money (on some things;) ), I had to wait 5 year for a 2% raise. xmadx

[dgreco]

I think if the basketball program continues to move on the up's. Right now they are probably 3rd? behind GW and Xavier, if they can become the team to be in the A10, and make a push in the tourney, I think they will look at the move. The excitement and the student support will drive them crazy and they will look for the next move. As far as football the Big East is dying for another team, but as for the conference they are way to overcrowded, but maybe they want another team. They do not have any teams in MA right now, and for being the fifth biggest MSA and 13th largest CSA that must be killing them.

I could see a few teams move USF (not sure which division though), UND becoming full-time independent?, and Georgetown, besides basketball they really do not have a lot of success in the Big East.

[Minuteman87]

YAWN
This kind of talk has been going on for 20 years. It's the same arguments for/against every time. It will take millions of dollars to upgrade. The Legislature will NEVER fund it. Our apathetic alumni base will NEVER pony up the money. It's a nice little fantasy for the couple thousand alumni (out of like 200,000) who give a crap about football, but it ain't gonna happen. Period.

[PSUVikings]

UMASS would go 0-12 for years to come in the Big East, Sun Belt is the only option for FCS schools east of the Mississippi.

[MplsBison]

LOL it will be a cold day in hell when you hear positive comments about the FBS on this board.

[Go...gate]

This revisits a question I've raised before--where in I-A/FBS would they play?

The Big East is on record saying they don't want I-AA upgrades. The MAC is full. What's left?

Even in light of the probable split between the football schools and the non-football schools? If so, BE is being short-sighted, IMO.

[already123]

UMASS would go 0-12 for years to come in the Big East, Sun Belt is the only option for FCS schools east of the Mississippi.

Or they could go independent...I dont think that would be too bad of an idea

Either way, they should definitely stay where they are at:)

[Kosty]

UMASS would go 0-12 for years to come in the Big East, Sun Belt is the only option for FCS schools east of the Mississippi.

This is one of the silliest thing I've ever heard.

If the Big East hoops teams want to split from the football teams, UMass would HAVE to be an attractive option to the football teams. I would very much enjoy being in a conference with West Virginia, Syracuse, Louisville, Rutgers, UConn, Pitt, USF and Cincy. My problem with the talk about UMass moving up to FBS is that there is NO WAY they would fill the stands on a weekly basis. NO WAY. Unfortunately, the population around the Amherst area will not turn out for big time football games. Just the facts.

[laxVik]

This is one of the silliest thing I've ever heard.

If the Big East hoops teams want to split from the football teams, UMass would HAVE to be an attractive option to the football teams. I would very much enjoy being in a conference with West Virginia, Syracuse, Louisville, Rutgers, UConn, Pitt, USF and Cincy. My problem with the talk about UMass moving up to FBS is that there is NO WAY they would fill the stands on a weekly basis. NO WAY. Unfortunately, the population around the Amherst area will not turn out for big time football games. Just the facts.For a state school that's a sad fact.

[AZGrizFan]

im all for it , umass can already play at the next level.

xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

You gonna be a C-USA juggernaught? xlolx xlolx xlolx

[UncleSam]

The only team in the CAA that might successfully move up is Delaware, but apparently there has never been any interest exhibited in making such a move by the UD administration

[ATL_DANE]

Any chance UMASS would work with other large NE state schools to create a new conference? There seems to be a number of large FCS state schools in the NE. The Delewares, UMASS, UNH type schools.

[Kosty]

For a state school that's a sad fact.

Utterly sad. They don't even sell out games every week NOW!!!!

[UAalum72]

My problem with the talk about UMass moving up to FBS is that there is NO WAY they would fill the stands on a weekly basis. NO WAY. Unfortunately, the population around the Amherst area will not turn out for big time football games. Just the facts.
Not facts, just opinions. How would you know? Has it ever been tried? Would you have thought fifteen years ago that UConn would ever be drawing 30,000+ in Hartford?

[laxVik]

Our average has been quite sad as well given the size of the city we're in. JG's hire looks to rejuvenate sales and has, but for how long. Some areas are simply finicky for college fb. Even if we moved up to D1 as well I'm not sure we'd be able sell over 20K for the San Jose State's at home. Though I could be wrong. Important upcoming year.

[MplsBison]

the population around the Amherst area will not turn out for big time football games.

How about the populations of Hartford, Albany, NYC, Boston, and Providence?

You're telling me there are no UMass alumni there?

[KAUMASS]

xcoffeex xoopsx xviolinx xbangx xarguex xspankx xazzx xdeadhorsex xsplatx xcoachx xanim_chaix . That should sum it up.

Somewhere in the thread UConn was brought up...If UConn has a similar year to last, their Head Coach, Edsall is gone. That reminds me, I will start a thread on what current or former FCS coach will take over UConn.
I know a favorite already...

[Fresno St. Alum]

This revisits a question I've raised before--where in I-A/FBS would they play?

The Big East is on record saying they don't want I-AA upgrades. The MAC is full. What's left?

MAC is at 13 now with Temple for FB only they could put 1 more to balance it out. Don't know if UMass thinks it's that 1 or not.

[DFW HOYA]

I could see a few teams move [out of the league]: USF (not sure which division though), UND becoming full-time independent?, and Georgetown, besides basketball they really do not have a lot of success in the Big East.

Not a lot of success? Georgetown won four conference titles this year, trailing only Louisville and Notre Dame.

Georgetown isn't going anywhere; besides, its mix of sports at various schoalrship levels does not fit in well to any other conference.

[Go...gate]

This is one of the silliest thing I've ever heard.

If the Big East hoops teams want to split from the football teams, UMass would HAVE to be an attractive option to the football teams. I would very much enjoy being in a conference with West Virginia, Syracuse, Louisville, Rutgers, UConn, Pitt, USF and Cincy. My problem with the talk about UMass moving up to FBS is that there is NO WAY they would fill the stands on a weekly basis. NO WAY. Unfortunately, the population around the Amherst area will not turn out for big time football games. Just the facts.

They would not be alone. Until the last couple years, Rutgers was struggling to get 15-25,000 for home games, and Cincy only has a 31,000 seat stadium which they almost never sell out.

[Maverick]

New England is pro sports territory. It is the Patriots, Red Sox, Celtics, and Bruins. The last two though have fallen on hard times lately in terms of success. The college sports are not what drive the commonwealth. As to UConn, they had a huge influx of money (about 1 billion) from the legislature to do what they did for the campus as well as the athletic department. That kind of money is not there for UMass. UMass has improved with Whipple and Brown but the facilities issues are vast. They have been working on getting lights to have night games (it would only be early in the season as the fans are not like the Griz fans when it comes to cold weather) a project of around a million for a few years with no luck. What does that tell you about the chances of moving up?

[youwouldno]

No chance, ever.

[GannonFan]

I'm sure there are factions in UMass that would want to move up, but it just won't ever happen for them - they'll never get the sweetheart deal that UConn got (stadium, funding, et al), they don't have the fanbase (they're not well liked in the other half of the state where most of the population is), and they don't have a place to call home (UConn was a founding member and assured of entry in the Big East - not so for UMass). Nothing is wrong with going FBS, but in UMass's specific situation it's just not a feasible idea.

[Seawolf97]

I can understand U Mass's plight. New York is all about pro sports except maybe when Big East Basketball is played at the MSG, It might be wise just to sit it out a couple of years and see what happens within the CAA or America East if they pick up football.

[Mr. C]

LOL it will be a cold day in hell when you hear positive comments about the FBS on this board.

And to think I thought you lived in Minneapolis.

[Henny]

The problem with going FBS and growing a football program to a higher level at UMASS is location. The people of the Pioneer Valley, the Birkshires and western Mass. in general, really just dont care that much about football. They are peace loving people who would rather go to an art festival. Completely different, basically than the sports maniacs on the other side of the state.

Regardless, UMASS has an excellent coach and look to contend again this year.

[Keeper]

It would be presumptuous and brainless for Mr Tocco
to not have "an open mind" prior to a subcommittee
report being released. Otherwise, why have the study
at all?

The article only lists Mr Tocco as a possible proponent.
There seems to be many important voices already to
vote against upgrade. One has to wonder whether
"centralization" implies pulling more interest (read $$$)
into the U, and using football as an alumni lightning rod.

As alluded to earlier, there is a very good reason for
few FBS teams in New England/New York. Fractured
university systems and lukewarm fan support.

Really, must we have a hysterical debate every time
a successful FCS program opts to look at its direction?
All programs evaluate their position annually to some
extent, although most of them not so publicly scoped.

Oh yeah, I forgot. This is the longest slowest non-news
part of the year, and program movement is about the
only topic we have to jump on. 80 days & counting.................... ... ... .. .. . . . . . . .

[dgreco]

The problem with going FBS and growing a football program to a higher level at UMASS is location. The people of the Pioneer Valley, the Birkshires and western Mass. in general, really just dont care that much about football. They are peace loving people who would rather go to an art festival. Completely different, basically than the sports maniacs on the other side of the state.

Regardless, UMASS has an excellent coach and look to contend again this year.

This is where I agree, pro sports franchises can succeed in small markets, and college towns work when there is nothing else but the college team. When you live in the northeast everything is so close that is never a need to see college sports with everything around. I also think since Umass is out in western mass it won't draw the people. NY's wont come watch, Bostonians won't come out, maybe people from Worcester would come. I think UConn was successfull also because of where the stadium is, if it was in Storrs they wouldn't be able to draw the people that they draw.

[DrG]

The only conceivable way it could work would be a situation like Penn State, where people drive from all over the state on football Saturdays. But Massachusetts ain't Pennsylvania, so it isn't going to happen. The majority of the population lives in eastern Massachusetts, and even with over 100,000 UMass alumni living there, they don't care enough to make the drive, and probably wouldn't even with an FBS program. (I live in Boston and drive to every home game, but I am in a microscopic minority.) In my opinion, this is a grandiose pipe dream by the new Chairman of the Board of Trustees and a few of his cohorts, but there are way too many factors militating against it happening anytime soon.

[Col Hogan]

New England is pro sports territory. It is the Patriots, Red Sox, Celtics, and Bruins. The last two though have fallen on hard times lately in terms of success. The college sports are not what drive the commonwealth. As to UConn, they had a huge influx of money (about 1 billion) from the legislature to do what they did for the campus as well as the athletic department. That kind of money is not there for UMass. UMass has improved with Whipple and Brown but the facilities issues are vast. They have been working on getting lights to have night games (it would only be early in the season as the fans are not like the Griz fans when it comes to cold weather) a project of around a million for a few years with no luck. What does that tell you about the chances of moving up?


The problem with going FBS and growing a football program to a higher level at UMASS is location. The people of the Pioneer Valley, the Birkshires and western Mass. in general, really just dont care that much about football. They are peace loving people who would rather go to an art festival. Completely different, basically than the sports maniacs on the other side of the state.

Regardless, UMASS has an excellent coach and look to contend again this year.


The only conceivable way it could work would be a situation like Penn State, where people drive from all over the state on football Saturdays. But Massachusetts ain't Pennsylvania, so it isn't going to happen. The majority of the population lives in eastern Massachusetts, and even with over 100,000 UMass alumni living there, they don't care enough to make the drive, and probably wouldn't even with an FBS program. (I live in Boston and drive to every home game, but I am in a microscopic minority.) In my opinion, this is a grandiose pipe dream by the new Chairman of the Board of Trustees and a few of his cohorts, but there are way too many factors militating against it happening anytime soon.

Three different posters...all sum up the issues facing UMass and any potential move up to FBS...

New England is pro sports heaven...

Those of us who support college (and FCS in particular) sports understand this...

UMass should focus all energy on keeping a consistant football winner in FCS...

'Nuff said....

[MplsBison]

I'd be curious to know how UConn fans felt about the move up immediately before hand.


I'm sure there were a fair number with no vision of what could be that resemble the UMass fans here.

[Col Hogan]

I'd be curious to know how UConn fans felt about the move up immediately before hand.


I'm sure there were a fair number with no vision of what could be that resemble the UMass fans here.

Please tell us with no vision what could be...

Remember, you have to take reality into account.....

[DrG]

I'd be curious to know how UConn fans felt about the move up immediately before hand.


I'm sure there were a fair number with no vision of what could be that resemble the UMass fans here.

As I recall, the most compelling argument for UConn fans, as well as the governor and legislature, was that they feared their beloved basketball program would be hurt by remaining where they were. A) They feared they might be cut out of the Big East if the football schools split someday, and B) They felt they couldn't compete with schools that were getting big-time football revenue. As other posters have pointed out, there is no comparison between the situations in Connecticut and Massachusetts. They'll build igloos in hell before the Massachusetts Legislature builds us a major stadium.

[andy7171]

I'd be curious to know how UConn fans felt about the move up immediately before hand.


I'm sure there were a fair number with no vision of what could be that resemble the UMass fans here.
Is UConn such successful story to try to compare to?

[Col Hogan]

They'll build igloos in hell before the Massachusetts Legislature builds us a major stadium.

And if the Massachusetts Legislature has any say in the design of those igloos, they will cost us triple the going rate with a construction time double what any one else would have.....xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[GannonFan]

I'd be curious to know how UConn fans felt about the move up immediately before hand.


I'm sure there were a fair number with no vision of what could be that resemble the UMass fans here.


I just don't think you have any appreciation for the area of the country you are talking about, and this isn't the first time you ran into this problem (in another thread you thought nova was a cinch to move up) - comparing UConn with UMass is where the problem lies. Connecticut, and UConn in particular, has always been different than the UMass's of the Northeast - Connecticut doesn't have in-state pro teams, so that lessens the impact of the Patriots and the Red Sox and so on - not completely, but a little bit. UConn was also a Big East member since its inception - so since 1979, UConn has been at the pinnacle of men's college basketball, not to mention women's basketball - UMass had a brief flirtation with big time success in basketball in the mid 90's - before and after that they weren't much to write home about. Where UConn then had 2 full decades of building a sizeable fanbase, UMass hasn't done that for a variety of reasons. UConn doesn't have another football BCS team in their state to worry about - UMass would have to deal with Boston College and their decades-long buildup and establishment of their program. And lastly, it doesn't matter about vision - the Massachusetts legislature is not going to pony up the cash like the Connecticut legislature did to try to lure the Patriots to their state - they are already there and they aren't putting a stadium in western Massachusetts.

The only thing that UConn and UMass share is relative geography. After that, trying to draw lessons from the UConn experience and applying them to UMass is just fraught with unsimilarities - they are like night and day in terms of the issues faced.

[Col Hogan]

Is UConn such successful story to try to compare to?

Reality, Andy...you're using reality.....xthumbsupx

[Col Hogan]

I just don't think you have any appreciation for the area of the country you are talking about, and this isn't the first time you ran into this problem (in another thread you thought nova was a cinch to move up) - comparing UConn with UMass is where the problem lies. Connecticut, and UConn in particular, has always been different than the UMass's of the Northeast - Connecticut doesn't have in-state pro teams, so that lessens the impact of the Patriots and the Red Sox and so on - not completely, but a little bit. UConn was also a Big East member since its inception - so since 1979, UConn has been at the pinnacle of men's college basketball, not to mention women's basketball - UMass had a brief flirtation with big time success in basketball in the mid 90's - before and after that they weren't much to write home about. Where UConn then had 2 full decades of building a sizeable fanbase, UMass hasn't done that for a variety of reasons. UConn doesn't have another football BCS team in their state to worry about - UMass would have to deal with Boston College and their decades-long buildup and establishment of their program. And lastly, it doesn't matter about vision - the Massachusetts legislature is not going to pony up the cash like the Connecticut legislature did to try to lure the Patriots to their state - they are already there and they aren't putting a stadium in western Massachusetts.

The only thing that UConn and UMass share is relative geography. After that, trying to draw lessons from the UConn experience and applying them to UMass is just fraught with unsimilarities - they are like night and day in terms of the issues faced.

Outstanding understanding of the reality that is facing UMass...xthumbsupx

Thanks, GannonFan xbowx

[aceinthehole]

I just don't think you have any appreciation for the area of the country you are talking about, and this isn't the first time you ran into this problem (in another thread you thought nova was a cinch to move up) - comparing UConn with UMass is where the problem lies. Connecticut, and UConn in particular, has always been different than the UMass's of the Northeast - Connecticut doesn't have in-state pro teams, so that lessens the impact of the Patriots and the Red Sox and so on - not completely, but a little bit. UConn was also a Big East member since its inception - so since 1979, UConn has been at the pinnacle of men's college basketball, not to mention women's basketball - UMass had a brief flirtation with big time success in basketball in the mid 90's - before and after that they weren't much to write home about. Where UConn then had 2 full decades of building a sizeable fanbase, UMass hasn't done that for a variety of reasons. UConn doesn't have another football BCS team in their state to worry about - UMass would have to deal with Boston College and their decades-long buildup and establishment of their program. And lastly, it doesn't matter about vision - the Massachusetts legislature is not going to pony up the cash like the Connecticut legislature did to try to lure the Patriots to their state - they are already there and they aren't putting a stadium in western Massachusetts.

The only thing that UConn and UMass share is relative geography. After that, trying to draw lessons from the UConn experience and applying them to UMass is just fraught with unsimilarities - they are like night and day in terms of the issues faced.

Gannon, you are pretty much right on. UConn and UMass share very little in common.

1) UConn was a founding Big East member. This alone makes any comparison with UMass useless. The Huskies were guarateed a spot in BE football and were encouraged by the commission to "upgrade" the program. Nova was offered the same deal to join BE football, but declined.

2) Basketball is still king! The move to upgrade football was a BASKETBALL decision. If UConn didn't move to I-A there was a real concern that the basketball program would suffer by a decrease in national exposure, revenue, and possible loss of Big East membership. UConn will never be a I-A power. They will average 40-50k, and win a few bowl games here and there. This will not turn into a Florida or Texas. It will be like Kentucky or North Carolina football - something to keep fans busy until basketball season.

3) Different State Legislatures. Hartford was willing to be a huge supportor of UConn financially. Yes, most of the "extra" cash came after both M&W basketball success, but the state pledged $2 BILLION in capital improvemnets to UConn. Boston has no such desire or political will to invest in UMass.

---
I would argue pre-Big East days, both schools were very similar- former agricultaral collges transformed into New England state flaship universities. Athletically, they both were the big fish in the Yankee Conference (with URI hoops), but they have since gone down very seperate paths!!!

Connecticut is also a huge "pro sports" state, stradeled between the Boston and New York market. In fact, I would say Fairfield County is as big "pro town" as there exists in the country. The lack of a pro team within the borders of the Conn, does not make us any less of a pro fanbase.

Conn. legislative support also comes from the fact that UConn has a law school (Maine is the only other public law school in New England). Our statehouse is filled with Husky alums. The Mass. legislature is filled with private schools alums from BC and Harvard, to all the small New England liberal colleges. Any political analysis of the two state is like comparing apples to oranges.

Also, the Patroits did almost nothing to help get UConn football. Yes, there were plans for a pro stadium for the Pats that UConn would have shared, but the current UConn stadium is not related to those previous plans. Even the funding of the current stadium is only indirectly related to the original Pats legislation.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Speaking of reality, there is a LOT of things that need talking about here.

* One of the top bits of loathing I have if for the following argument, which comes up over and over and over again: "X is a pro sports town." It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. It perpetuates the myth "Well, the Titans are here in Tennessee, and fans are of course incapable of supporting a team on Saturday AND Sunday, so of course Tennessee State football won't ever rate." It's a complete and utter bunch of baloney. Sure, there can be difficulties. But you cannot convince me that "that's the way it is" and no school has a shot to make a successful name for itself in ANY market. And saying UMass never has a chance on Saturdays because the Patriots are popular on Sundays to me is completely ridiculous.

To further explain the ridiculousness of this argment, turn back the clock 15 years to 1992. No Patriot Super Bowls. Where are the Patriots in the "Boston Sports Hierarchy", a distant fourth to the Celtics, Bruins, and Red Sox? Are you then trying to tell me that the reason folks don't support UMass was that they want to see what Sam Horn can do for the 1993 baseball season? Ridiculous.

Everyone is talking about UConn not being a "pro sports state". To that I say take a survey on how many Connecticut residents go to Patriots, Giants or Jet games -- not to mention Red Sox, Yankees, Rangers, Bruins, Celtics, Knicks...

* A lot of comparisons have been made with UConn and UMass, how UConn was successful. What folks are missing is that UConn and UMass used to be huge rivals before their move to the Big East. They are, what, one hour apart? This UMass football move is driven in large part due to the fact their "rival" has eclipsed them in every sport, with UConn's Renschler Field staring at them every day across the state line and some NCAA basketball championships. There are UMass folks who want to rekindle that rivalry in football as well to prove that they're the equal of UConn. To me, that is not an invalid reason to go to FBS... as long as it's the right situation (i.e., the Big East wants to give them an invite).

* UConn isn't just in FBS. They're in a league which plays in major bowls and has a shot at the BCS championship. This ain't the New Orleans Bowl, this is the Sugar Bowl. That's a huge difference. Those folks saying that UConn's football team will slide into mediocrity can't ignore the fact that for them, it would only take one successful year and a BCS title game to change that. That's something Western Kentucky doesn't have.

* What was bad for UConn going to FBS? They had an open invitation to a BCS-eligible conference, a state legislature that was willing and able to make it happen, a huge assist from Bob Kraft, and some luck. Even with a sub-.500 team they still get a huge chunk of FBS money. That has to be considered a success story -- although one that can really never be duplicated.

* To me, it's clear that someone is fudging the numbers over at UMass to "prove the point" that their school doesn't make money. By including scholarship money on their "football expenditures" list, it paints a misleading picture of the health of the athletic department that the local press is all too willing to turn into newspaper sales. I think UMass is not nearly as "in the red" as they purport to be, and when I see folks like Mr. Tocco say "Right now, there is a limited opportunity to make money with the team," I just shake my head. Is your ONLY point to make money?

I can see the dynamics of this whole situation. The headline should probably read: "Tocco pushes FBS football moneymaking agenda; Faculty doesn't like it; Fans wish they were in the Big East instead of UConn" and leave it at that. In other words, no real news here, folks, move along.

[andy7171]

I think the point of "the pro sports town theory" is that FCS is seen by the majority of people as secondary and lesser than the local FBS teams. Sure people who primarily root for the local pro team can support college football. But the college football team that is going to be is the local FBS team. With all the concentration of schools in the Northeast FCS teams are left to deal with what ever falls out afterward, usually being hard core alumni, family and students.

Here's a non Boston example: Baltimore football fans who want to go to a college football game on a Saturday will drive 40 minutes south to see either the Twerps or Navy, rather than 10 minutes north to see Towson or Morgan State. It's just a fact of life FCS schools in big cities have to deal with.

[MplsBison]

UConn will never be a I-A power. They will average 40-50k, and win a few bowl games here and there. This will not turn into a Florida or Texas. It will be like Kentucky or North Carolina football - something to keep fans busy until basketball season.

You're right, it's not even worth considering that a school mostly known for basketball could be a football power:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=2900959&sportCat=ncb




Conn. legislative support also comes from the fact that UConn has a law school . Our statehouse is filled with Husky alums. The Mass. legislature is filled with private schools alums from BC and Harvard, to all the small New England liberal colleges.

This is the best point you made. I hadn't really considered this angle until now and you're right.

Not only doesn't the UMass system have a law school but all the private schools in MA with law schools have fought them tooth and nail about getting one.

That said, I think it's important to realize that law school is a graduate school. It's perfectly plausible to think that many MA legislators went to UMass for undergrad.

It's also reasonable to think that UMass will add a law school down the road. It seems more than reasonable to have a school where students without 50k a year to spend on tuition can study law and earn a JD.

[DFW HOYA]

The move to upgrade football was a BASKETBALL decision. If UConn didn't move to I-A there was a real concern that the basketball program would suffer by a decrease in national exposure, revenue, and possible loss of Big East membership.

UConn was not going to lose Big East membership by playing I-AA/FCS football, and it wouldn't have affected basketball revenues either.

At best that was a scare tactic. At worst, it's simply dishonest.

[UncleSam]

Athletically, they both were the big fish in the Yankee Conference (with URI hoops), but they have since gone down very seperate paths!!!




While I agree with the point of your post, I have to point out that UConn was never a 'big fish' relative to Yankee Conference/A10 football. In the 14 years after the old Yankee conference expanded in 1986, UConn was never able to win a Yankee/A10 title. In fact, in 7 of those 14 years, UConn didn't even have a winning record in league play. The truth is that UConn was just a pretty average I-AA program during their time in the league.

[BearsCountry]

The only conceivable way it could work would be a situation like Penn State, where people drive from all over the state on football Saturdays. But Massachusetts ain't Pennsylvania, so it isn't going to happen. The majority of the population lives in eastern Massachusetts, and even with over 100,000 UMass alumni living there, they don't care enough to make the drive, and probably wouldn't even with an FBS program. (I live in Boston and drive to every home game, but I am in a microscopic minority.) In my opinion, this is a grandiose pipe dream by the new Chairman of the Board of Trustees and a few of his cohorts, but there are way too many factors militating against it happening anytime soon.

The question is would they travel from Boston to see Syracuse, UConn, West Virginia, etc.?

[DrG]

The question is would they travel from Boston to see Syracuse, UConn, West Virginia, etc.?

That's a very good question. It's sort of a chicken-and-egg debate. The only anecdotal evidence I can think of was back when UMass annually played BC home-and-home in the late 60's 70's and early 80's. Only once did they sell out a BC game (20,000 in 1972). Granted, that was pre-Flutie and before BC became a player on the national stage. Maybe it could work with the Big East, but that only strengthens the argument that UMass shouldn't even contemplate making the jump without entry into the Big East. And that does not appear to be on the horizon at this point.

[aceinthehole]

A few clarifications:

LFN - Again, Bob Kraft's proposal to bring the Pats to Hartford had practically no impact on the UConn upgrade. The move to I-A would of happened without the Pats moving to the state, which of course is what happened. UConn got a 40,000-seat, $94 million stadium paid for by Conn. taxpayers on land dontated for free by United Technologies in E. Hartford. The Pats proposal was a $350 million public/private partnership to build a 80,000-seat stadium in downtown Hartford for economic development. The UConn use was just an added bonus.


Uncle Sam - You are right, but my context was more than football. You have to look both UConn's and UMass' record vs. other Yankee Conf foes in all sports. In basketballl, baseball, soccer, etc. - UMass and UConn were generally the bigger and more sucessfull programs in the conference. Of course, UConn was never a real I-AA powerhouse in the region.


DFW - Uconn wouldn't loose membership, but there was a real fear rivals like Sryacuse and Boston Collge could leave if the Big East didn't have a strong football conference. What position would have the Big East been in if UConn had not upgraded? It was a real possibility in the future that without an upgraded football program, UConn may have lost some exposure, or revenue in a less valuable Big East. There are a lot of what ifs to be asked if the Big East didn't establish a stronger FB conference. I think it was a legit concern back then.

[Maroon&White]

While I agree with the point of your post, I have to point out that UConn was never a 'big fish' relative to Yankee Conference/A10 football. In the 14 years after the old Yankee conference expanded in 1986, UConn was never able to win a Yankee/A10 title. In fact, in 7 of those 14 years, UConn didn't even have a winning record in league play. The truth is that UConn was just a pretty average I-AA program during their time in the league.


UConn won 15 Yankee Conference Championships and 145 league games. Both second to UMass (17 & 160) in Yankee Conference history. You conveniently leave out the years prior to 1986 when saying UCon wasn't a "big fish", but they certainly were in the entire history of the conference.

[UncleSam]

UConn won 15 Yankee Conference Championships and 145 league games. Both second to UMass (17 & 160) in Yankee Conference history. You conveniently leave out the years prior to 1986 when saying UCon wasn't a "big fish", but they certainly were in the entire history of the conference.

The point was, prior to UConn jumpimg up to the Big East, that in 'modern' history (the past 20 years) after the league added Delaware, Richmond, Villanova, W&M and JMU, UConn was NOT a 'big fish' in Yankee/A10 football and that is a fact.

[Maroon&White]

* One of the top bits of loathing I have if for the following argument, which comes up over and over and over again: "X is a pro sports town." It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. It perpetuates the myth "Well, the Titans are here in Tennessee, and fans are of course incapable of supporting a team on Saturday AND Sunday, so of course Tennessee State football won't ever rate." It's a complete and utter bunch of baloney. Sure, there can be difficulties. But you cannot convince me that "that's the way it is" and no school has a shot to make a successful name for itself in ANY market. And saying UMass never has a chance on Saturdays because the Patriots are popular on Sundays to me is completely ridiculous.

To further explain the ridiculousness of this argment, turn back the clock 15 years to 1992. No Patriot Super Bowls. Where are the Patriots in the "Boston Sports Hierarchy", a distant fourth to the Celtics, Bruins, and Red Sox? Are you then trying to tell me that the reason folks don't support UMass was that they want to see what Sam Horn can do for the 1993 baseball season? Ridiculous.


The arguement of New England being a pro sport area isn't that people can't support both pro and college sports. It's not that people can't go to games on sunday and saturday. It's the fact that the people in New England care much more about pro sports then college ones. People largely just don't care about college sports. In MA, Red Sox, Patriots, Bruins and Celtics are king. Whether you like it or not, it is just the way it is. Hockey is the large draw of colleges. Look at Maine, UNH, BC, BU, Harvard, UMass, etc...they get very large crowds for hockey. Beyond that, people just don't care for college sports. It's Red Sox, Patriots, Celtics and Bruins.


Everyone is talking about UConn not being a "pro sports state". To that I say take a survey on how many Connecticut residents go to Patriots, Giants or Jet games -- not to mention Red Sox, Yankees, Rangers, Bruins, Celtics, Knicks...


You apparently aren't from the area and don't get the differences between CT MA. CT is not like the other New England states, including MA. The entire state loves their huskies. UCon is the obsession of the state just as bruins, celtics, red sox and patriots are the obsession of those in MA. Live around here for a while you and will realize it.


This UMass football move is driven in large part due to the fact their "rival" has eclipsed them in every sport,

That extremely far from the truth. Go beyond looking at one or two sports and you'll realize that.

[henfan]

To me, it's clear that someone is fudging the numbers over at UMass to "prove the point" that their school doesn't make money. By including scholarship money on their "football expenditures" list, it paints a misleading picture of the health of the athletic department that the local press is all too willing to turn into newspaper sales. I think UMass is not nearly as "in the red" as they purport to be, and when I see folks like Mr. Tocco say "Right now, there is a limited opportunity to make money with the team," I just shake my head. Is your ONLY point to make money?

As always, great points LFN!

Elements in Amherst have been pushing for big-time D-I football for nearly 20 years now. My belief too is that they've always played fast and loose with their reported athletic finances to build support for a FB reclassification. They've even gone as far as to raise the specter of reduced funding for FB or worse unless funding was approved for reclassification.

Tocco talks about "limited opportunity to make money" with FCS FB due to the lack of BCS distribution and bowl opportunities. All of this belies the fact that the majority of revenue from D-I schools, including those at the FCS level, comes from ticket sales. No matter at which sub-division you compete, you've still got to put enough paying fans in the seats to offset costs.

Schools like Delaware and Montana have financially successful FCS programs because they sell tickets. Plain and simple. Perhaps UMass could experience similar financial success if they managed to market their program and level of play to Pioneer Valley. But that's an impossible feat to accomplish so long as they continue to imply that a bigger pot of gold awaits somewhere else.

[Maroon&White]

The point was, prior to UConn jumpimg up to the Big East, that in 'modern' history (the past 20 years) after the league added Delaware, Richmond, Villanova, W&M and JMU, UConn was NOT a 'big fish' in Yankee/A10 football and that is a fact.

It's extremely decieving saying they were not a big fish in the Yankee Conferece. You can look at the past 20 yrs before they moved if you want, but it unfair to say they were NEVER a big fish. Fact is, they were. You just choose to not include those years to make some point. No reason not include the years before UD, Richmond, Nova, W&M and JMU joined. That was the majority of the time the conference existed. 1947-1986, 39yrs...1986-1999, 13 yrs. Throw out 39yrs of Yankee Conference History because that wouldn't support your point.xrolleyesx

[dgreco]

I think an example of pro-sports town and a college town can easily be seen in Boston, Boston College could never support a 100,000 person stadium we know the interest isn't there. Professional sports rule all of the northeast and they enjoy the better talent.

The other hand a college town, and how it succeeds look at Kentucky and basketball, they are so successful and followed so well because there isn't a pro sports franchise to take away from the hype.

It is not just that people don't like college sports in the northeast, but when you have teams like Red Sox, Yankees, Jets, Nets, Knicks, Celtics, Giants, Patriots, Eagles, Flyers, Rangers, Islanders etc... it is hard to put all the effort into all these teams.

[dgreco]

It's extremely decieving saying they were not a big fish in the Yankee Conferece. You can look at the past 20 yrs before they moved if you want, but it unfair to say they were NEVER a big fish. Fact is, they were. You just choose to not include those years to make some point. No reason not include the years before UD, Richmond, Nova, W&M and JMU joined. That was the majority of the time the conference existed. 1947-1986, 39yrs...1986-1999, 13 yrs. Throw out 39yrs of Yankee Conference History because that wouldn't support your point.xrolleyesx

At the same time the current UConn is much different that the uconn from 1947-1986. That is saying (sorry to use pro reference) that the celtics still rule the NBA because they won 9 championships in a row in the 50's and 60's

[Maverick]

Schools like Delaware and Montana have financially successful FCS programs because they sell tickets. Plain and simple. Perhaps UMass could experience similar financial success if they managed to market their program and level of play to Pioneer Valley. But that's an impossible feat to accomplish so long as they continue to imply that a bigger pot of gold awaits somewhere else.

Perhaps is a very large word in this statement. UMass has been fairly successful beginning with the fall of 1998, if that kind of success does not draw to the program, what will? Free hotdogs and popcorn? The program has been marketed and many things tried, but there has not been the groundswell of support. Delaware and Montana are the universities of their respective states. UMass is not. Massachusetts is dominated by private schools. The major universities in Massachusetts are Harvard, MIT, BC, BU, etc. UMass undergrads who go on to the state legislature are not a major force as someone in another post "presumed". In this state (actually it is a commonwealth), UMass is not viewed highly in comparison to those schools mentioned earlier.

For LFN and those who accuse UMass of cooking the books as a scare tactic, you couldn't be more wrong. The cost of operating in Massachusetts is much more than can imagine. If you want to know how things are done here, two words serve as an example, Big Dig. Hell on campus it can cost close to the $2500 to get a window a/c unit installed (this does not include the cost of the a/c unit). This is what would be charged by their own physical plant.

They currently don't raise enough money through private and coporate donors to allow much more than treading water with the increased annual costs. If the university didn't kick in with the scholarship money, the UMass program would be up the creek. It is not like UMass has the top facilities, most staff, etc. either. UMass does a hell of a job with a lot less based on the number of sports (23) and the student-athlete population (600-625). Plus when some of you talking about moving up in football what do you think would happen with the other UMass sports? How competitive would they be in the Big East?

What does UMass have that would indicate that they are ready and capable to move to the next level? I wonder if all of the "experts" that aren't at UMass would share that information with us?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

..They currently don't raise enough money through private and coporate donors to allow much more than treading water with the increased annual costs. If the university didn't kick in with the scholarship money, the UMass program would be up the creek...

You've just described 90% of the programs in FCS, except the fact that it's not charity for the school to "kick in" with scholarship money - it's a part of the school as a whole. If UMass counts scholarship costs against their football department, I'd really like to know the expeditures of, oh, the school orchestra. Do they declare the money the school spends on those scholarships?

[UNH SUPERFAN]

Perhaps is a very large word in this statement. UMass has been fairly successful beginning with the fall of 1998, if that kind of success does not draw to the program, what will? Free hotdogs and popcorn? The program has been marketed and many things tried, but there has not been the groundswell of support. Delaware and Montana are the universities of their respective states. UMass is not. Massachusetts is dominated by private schools. The major universities in Massachusetts are Harvard, MIT, BC, BU, etc. UMass undergrads who go on to the state legislature are not a major force as someone in another post "presumed". In this state (actually it is a commonwealth), UMass is not viewed highly in comparison to those schools mentioned earlier.

For LFN and those who accuse UMass of cooking the books as a scare tactic, you couldn't be more wrong. The cost of operating in Massachusetts is much more than can imagine. If you want to know how things are done here, two words serve as an example, Big Dig. Hell on campus it can cost close to the $2500 to get a window a/c unit installed (this does not include the cost of the a/c unit). This is what would be charged by their own physical plant.

They currently don't raise enough money through private and coporate donors to allow much more than treading water with the increased annual costs. If the university didn't kick in with the scholarship money, the UMass program would be up the creek. It is not like UMass has the top facilities, most staff, etc. either. UMass does a hell of a job with a lot less based on the number of sports (23) and the student-athlete population (600-625). Plus when some of you talking about moving up in football what do you think would happen with the other UMass sports? How competitive would they be in the Big East?

What does UMass have that would indicate that they are ready and capable to move to the next level? I wonder if all of the "experts" that aren't at UMass would share that information with us?

Playing big-time schools will bring big-time crowds. I think the people of Mass. will embrace the Minutemen if they step up. It will be much more the "everyman" team than BC ever will be. To be sure, respect and big crowds have to be earned but over time I think that UMass would succeed as a FBS team and draw the 50k-60k crowds that would be needed to support the program.

As a UNH fan I hope it never happens.

[Maroon&White]

At the same time the current UConn is much different that the uconn from 1947-1986. That is saying (sorry to use pro reference) that the celtics still rule the NBA because they won 9 championships in a row in the 50's and 60's


Obviously they are different. Which team/school isn't. That has nothing to do with what I was saying. UncleSam said UCon was NEVER a "big fish" in the Yankee Conference. That simply isn't true. They were the second best school in Yankee Conference history behind UMass. If that isn't "big fish" I don't know what is. It has nothing to do with how they are doing now. Don't know where you got the idea that was the point.

[Maverick]

LFN,
Since when was the school orchestra subject to the scrutiny of any D-I athletic program in terms of finance and academics? Athletics at a state institution that is not a privately held entity as at some of the larger FBS schools is open to much inspection by the NCAA. When did you ever hear of checking graduation rates for any group at a university other than athletics? What about those results being published annually?

Are you saying that UMass football is making money but it is kept a secret to enhance the chances of moving up? Explain your conspiracy theory about UMass football and profitability.


UNHFan,
That would only happen if UMass would be invited to join the Big East. With Tranghese as the engineer that train left the station a few years ago. Without the Big East UMass would very likely become the next Buffalo in terms of moving up. So your if you build it they will come theory may not be as solid as you think.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Well, I managed to get myself blocked out of AGS and couldn't join into this wonderful discussion, but Ace made sure all the facts about the UConn football upgrade got clarified.

And I know how much it hurts for my UMass friends to acknowledge any success by the UConVicts or the Evil Empire as they're called on the Central Connecticut State Forum. It hurts me too because I am not a member of UConn Nation which really puts me in a minority around these parts! But I'm afraid that I have to give the Husky Dog credit when it comes to football.

As a CT taxpayer, I was very opposed to that $93,000,000 gift from the state because based on their I-AA track record, I never thought they'd come close to filling Rentschler Field. I truly thought this project had boondoggle written all over it! But ol' Lew Perkins really sold Husky Nation on the threat to the sacred cow AKA the UConn basketball program. To their credit, Husky Nation stepped up and have embraced football in a way I never thought possible. During the past two seasons, I believe the only non-sellouts at Rentschler field have been the games against URI and Murray State! And the most shocking fact is that UConn Football is now the biggest money maker in the UConn Athletic Program! xeekx

Hartford Courant Article on Revenues (http://www.courant.com/news/local/hc-asked1227.artdec27,0,5852262.story?coll=hc-utility-local)

But I still wish that UMass, UNH, Maine, Delaware or JMU got a crack at UConn last year! I think anyone of these former A-10 rivals would have held their own against the Huskies! xnodx I'm mean UMass lost by one to Navy in Annapolis while Navy absolutely spanked the Huskies in East Hartford.

But as many have already stated, despite the close proximity of Storrs, CT and Amherst, MA, the scenarios in each state couldn't be more of an apples and oranges situation. And what must be most frustrating for the UMass folks is that the population of MA must be double that of CT, UMass is a larger school and I'm sure has more alumni. But from my observation UMass has never come close to building a statewide fan base like UConn Nation. That added to all the political realities of MA will continue to be the difference. xtwocentsx

[UncleSam]

Obviously they are different. Which team/school isn't. That has nothing to do with what I was saying. UncleSam said UCon was NEVER a "big fish" in the Yankee Conference. That simply isn't true. They were the second best school in Yankee Conference history behind UMass. If that isn't "big fish" I don't know what is. It has nothing to do with how they are doing now. Don't know where you got the idea that was the point.


OK, I'll ammend my statement, UConn had not been a 'big fish' in the Yankee/A10 Conference for well over the previous twenty years, prior to their moving up to the Big East. ;)


PS - and if you read my first statement, I said UConn was never a big fish in the Yankee/A10, the Yankee/A10 combo, would indicate that I was referring to the years from 1986 to their departure.

[Maroon&White]

PS - and if you read my first statement, I said UConn was never a big fish in the Yankee/A10, the Yankee/A10 combo, would indicate that I was referring to the years from 1986 to their departure.


The A10 started in 1997, again, no reason to use 1986...except to discredit UCon from previous conference championships. xlolx

[UncleSam]

The A10 started in 1997, again, no reason to use 1986...except to discredit UCon from previous conference championships. xlolx


1986 was the year the old Yankee Conference first expanded out of New England, which led to a much stronger (A10) I-AA league.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN,
Since when was the school orchestra subject to the scrutiny of any D-I athletic program in terms of finance and academics? Athletics at a state institution that is not a privately held entity as at some of the larger FBS schools is open to much inspection by the NCAA. When did you ever hear of checking graduation rates for any group at a university other than athletics? What about those results being published annually?

Are you saying that UMass football is making money but it is kept a secret to enhance the chances of moving up? Explain your conspiracy theory about UMass football and profitability.

All I'm saying is that most FCS programs do not count all the money spent on "scholarships" as a liability on the balance sheet like UMass appears to do. If you have an extra $2 million of liabilities that other schools don't appear to have, you're never going to "look profitable".

[henfan]

For LFN and those who accuse UMass of cooking the books as a scare tactic, you couldn't be more wrong.

Well, that's certainly your opinion. But for the life of me, I can't think of any other way to characterize some of the propoganda UMass has floated over the last decade plus as anything other than scare tactics and book cooking.

As one such example, former UMass AD Bob Marcum, in the wake of the Minutemen's '98 I-AA title and push for reclassification, repeated to anyone who would listen that UMass lost $2.1M in winning the championship. He made statements circa '99 that UMass and other I-AA programs couldn't possibly make money in the subdivision even selling out their stadiums with $15 tickets. Of course, what Marcum didn't tell anyone was that UMass didn't regularly sell out its own stadium during the '98 regular season and made the poor institutional decisions to spend extravagently when taking large traveling parties for post-season games in Louisiana (twice) and Chattanooga. Oh, and coincidentally, Marcum was one of the more ardent supporters of UMass reclassification. Maybe that was all just a coincidence.

Another reclassification push happened in '03. One source in the UMass administration told the Boston Globe, ''The feeling is that if this is going to happen [going to 1-A] this is the last chance to do it. And if it doesn't fly, the idea will then be to stay at 1-AA, but with no scholarships, or to drop football completely.'' UMass AD at the time, Ian McCaw indicated that ''The likelihood of conference realignment in the coming months, coupled with a one-time unique opportunity that would be afforded programs in transition into a Division 1-A conference, creates a narrow window of opportunity for this issue to be considered.''

Of course, after yet another study, UMass determined that they did not have the resources to support reclassification. Four years later, UMass is still playing FCS football with 63 equivalancies. Maybe those comments about dropping FB and windows of opportunity closing weren't scare tactics. Yeah, right.

Now, interest in reclassification is brewing once again in Amherst. Guess the window of opportunity didn't close afterall.xeyebrowx xsmhx

[Col Hogan]

All I'm saying is that most FCS programs do not count all the money spent on "scholarships" as a liability on the balance sheet like UMass appears to do. If you have an extra $2 million of liabilities that other schools don't appear to have, you're never going to "look profitable".

LFN, good question...I won't defend UMass, but (HOMER ALERT) doesn't good accounting require an entity to show all costs as liabilities? If you don't show scholarships as a cost of doing business, then how to you accurately and honestly show your cost of doing business?

[Col Hogan]

Well, that's certainly your opinion. But for the life of me, I can't think of any other way to characterize some of the propoganda UMass has floated over the last decade plus as anything other than scare tactics and book cooking.

As one such example, former UMass AD Bob Marcum, in the wake of the Minutemen's '98 I-AA title and push for reclassification, repeated to anyone who would listen that UMass lost $2.1M in winning the championship. He made statements circa '99 that UMass and other I-AA programs couldn't possibly make money in the subdivision even selling out their stadiums with $15 tickets. Of course, what Marcum didn't tell anyone was that UMass didn't regularly sell out its own stadium during the '98 regular season and made the poor institutional decisions to spend extravagently when taking large traveling parties for post-season games in Louisiana (twice) and Chattanooga. Oh, and coincidentally, Marcum was one of the more ardent supporters of UMass reclassification. Maybe that was all just a coincidence.

Another reclassification push happened in '03. One source in the UMass administration told the Boston Globe, ''The feeling is that if this is going to happen [going to 1-A] this is the last chance to do it. And if it doesn't fly, the idea will then be to stay at 1-AA, but with no scholarships, or to drop football completely.'' UMass AD at the time, Ian McCaw indicated that ''The likelihood of conference realignment in the coming months, coupled with a one-time unique opportunity that would be afforded programs in transition into a Division 1-A conference, creates a narrow window of opportunity for this issue to be considered.''

Hate to admit, but henfan is spot on...some at UMass who have favored moving the football team up to FBS level have played fast and loose with the facts...I remember the " if it doesn't fly, the idea will then be to stay at 1-AA, but with no scholarships, or to drop football completely" statement...my jaw dropped when I read it...yet here we are...

I know Massachuestts and New England...I know UMass...

I seriously doubt we can raise then money and interest...and most importantly, find a BCS conference to take us (THIS IS KEY!!!!!)...

I also know we can raise enough money and interest to be a power in FCS...

Don't "Peter Principal" us into FBS....JMHO

[Col Hogan]

Well, that's certainly your opinion. But for the life of me, I can't think of any other way to characterize some of the propoganda UMass has floated over the last decade plus as anything other than scare tactics and book cooking.

As one such example, former UMass AD Bob Marcum, in the wake of the Minutemen's '98 I-AA title and push for reclassification, repeated to anyone who would listen that UMass lost $2.1M in winning the championship. He made statements circa '99 that UMass and other I-AA programs couldn't possibly make money in the subdivision even selling out their stadiums with $15 tickets. Of course, what Marcum didn't tell anyone was that UMass didn't regularly sell out its own stadium during the '98 regular season and made the poor institutional decisions to spend extravagently when taking large traveling parties for post-season games in Louisiana (twice) and Chattanooga. Oh, and coincidentally, Marcum was one of the more ardent supporters of UMass reclassification. Maybe that was all just a coincidence.

Another reclassification push happened in '03. One source in the UMass administration told the Boston Globe, ''The feeling is that if this is going to happen [going to 1-A] this is the last chance to do it. And if it doesn't fly, the idea will then be to stay at 1-AA, but with no scholarships, or to drop football completely.'' UMass AD at the time, Ian McCaw indicated that ''The likelihood of conference realignment in the coming months, coupled with a one-time unique opportunity that would be afforded programs in transition into a Division 1-A conference, creates a narrow window of opportunity for this issue to be considered.''

Hate to admit, but henfan is spot on...some at UMass who have favored moving the football team up to FBS level have played fast and loose with the facts...I remember the " if it doesn't fly, the idea will then be to stay at 1-AA, but with no scholarships, or to drop football completely" statement...my jaw dropped when I read it...yet here we are...

I know Massachuestts and New England...I know UMass...

I seriously doubt we can raise the money and interest...and most importantly, find a BCS conference to take us (THIS IS KEY!!!!!)...

I also know we can raise enough money and interest to be a power in FCS...

Don't "Peter Principal" us into FBS....JMHO

[MplsBison]

and most importantly, find a BCS conference to take us

As it is right now, the Big East won't take you.


But once the football school split away, they will be more open to consideration.

[DrG]

Now, interest in reclassification is brewing once again in Amherst. Guess the window of opportunity didn't close afterall.xeyebrowx xsmhx
Correction: The interest is in Boston (i.e. Board of Trustees), not Amherst. The campus administration in Amherst, including the outgoing chancellor and the AD, is very much committed to remaining at the FCS level for the foreseeable future.

[henfan]

Thanks for the follow-up, DJP.

I really don't have an opinion on whether or not FB reclassification would be the best thing for UMass, whether or not it would work. I just don't know the area, the UMass community or the interplay between Pioneer Valley and the rest of Eastern Mass well enough.

I just wish that UMass administrators and supporters, in their push to reclassify, wouldn't pxss all over a FB subdivision that has served them well for nearly 30 years. It's not likely intentional, but those folks have got to realize the tripe they're spewing effects the schools who are going to continue playing in the FCS for years to come. Of course, guys like Marcum and McCaw are now long gone to the world of 'big time' college athletics, so what do they care?

[henfan]

Correction: The interest is in Boston (i.e. Board of Trustees), not Amherst.

Correct and duly noted. Thank you!xthumbsupx

[Col Hogan]

Correction: The interest is in Boston (i.e. Board of Trustees), not Amherst. The campus administration in Amherst, including the outgoing chancellor and the AD, is very much committed to remaining at the FCS level for the foreseeable future.

THIS IS IMPORTANT.....READ THIS AND REMEMBER...

Good post, Doc.......

[Col Hogan]

As it is right now, the Big East won't take you.


But once the football school split away, they will be more open to consideration.

MplsBison, I'll be a nice as I can with this...but there are those of us who do not want to move up.

I sense you feel everyone should have as their goal to be FBS...especially based on your posts yesterday in this thread...

I may be in a minority since I haven't polled the Alumni Association...but I doubt I am...

What's wrong with FCS in your opinion?

[Maverick]

The issue surrounding football and money still exists. On an annual basis the answer to these questions need to be answered. How much money does football bring in? How much does it cost to run the program?

I agree with many that the only viable football option would be the Big East. The cost of upgrading in terms of facilities, scholarships, staff, etc. and the likelihood of success at the next level are the crux of this matter. How to finance the move without state involvement has not been answered or even shown to be possible based on the current level of fundraising.

As henfan mentioned about not knowing about this area from a lot of different aspects, the frame of reference for many is of a state school for whom the role of flagship in the state makes them the focal point. In Massachusetts that is not the case. In terms of legislative support from alums, that is better but not enough to make it a force. The power of the state is in the East, UMass is in the West. (It is like being from Boston is not the same as being from Massachusetts. Inside 128 Boston is Massachusetts. Once read where someone said out there they are more like Northern Connecticut than Western Mass.) The pro sports thing is a very real factor in Massachusetts.

All of that said, UMass is FCS now and should remain so as it the level where it is competitive and fits with the level of interest. If UMass starts drawing around 90-95% capacity consistently at home for 2-3 years then there may be some grounds for revisiting this issue, until then forget it.

[Maroon&White]

1986 was the year the old Yankee Conference first expanded out of New England, which led to a much stronger (A10) I-AA league.

Are you still denying UCon was ever a "big fish" in the Yankee Conference? I find it funny when people just ignore years of previous history to try to make a point xlolx

50 years of Yankee Conference history...The years 1947-1985 completely ignored just so you can say UCon wasn't a big fish in the remaining yearsxrolleyesx

BTW, the majority of the current A10 teams didn't join in 1986, so it still looks like a random year to use. Four did join in 1947 though.

[Kosty]

Are you still denying UCon was ever a "big fish" in the Yankee Conference? I find it funny when people just ignore years of previous history to try to make a point xlolx

50 years of Yankee Conference history...The years 1947-1985 completely ignored just so you can say UCon wasn't a big fish in the remaining yearsxrolleyesx

BTW, the majority of the current A10 teams didn't join in 1986, so it still looks like a random year to use. Four did join in 1947 though.

According to UConn's own football history page, they did not make the 1-AA playoffs for the first time until 1998 or so I think. I don't know if that's why this guy is claiming they were a small fish in the YanCon. Just a thought.

http://www.uconnhuskies.com/sports/MFootball/2006/MediaGuide/7/Timeline.pdf

But then again.....


1955-1960
UConn captures five straight Yankee Conference Championships, a
league-record for consecutive titles won or shared. During that span, the
Huskies compile a 17-1-2 record in Yankee Conference play and go 18
league contests before their lone loss in the stretch, to New Hampshire.


1967-73
Connecticut captures four Yankee Conference
championships in a seven-season span, going 27-
6-3 in league play during that stretch.

A stretch of 5 in a row and then 4 in a row within 20 years would seem pretty "big fish" to me.

[UncleSam]

I was attempting to point out that UConn's supposed Yankee/A10 conference success was not a factor in their decision to move up to the FBS. The fact is that prior to UConn's decision to move to the Big East, they had not been a 'big fish' in Yankee/A10 Conference football for well over 20 years. In fact UConn's last Yankee/A10 title came way back in 1973, 26 years before they moved to the FBS. The fact is that UConn was a very mediocre I-AA program, for the 20 years, prior to their move to the Big East.

[dgreco]

either the way the move turned out good, I think that athlete wise they could get the players at UMass to compete, but I am not so sure they could get the fans... Are the fans the most important thing though? Or would the payouts from bowl games be important?

[Col Hogan]

either the way the move turned out good, I think that athlete wise they could get the players at UMass to compete, but I am not so sure they could get the fans... Are the fans the most important thing though? Or would the payouts from bowl games be important?

Gotta get the fans to meet NCAA standards...they hate empty seats, like we currently have at home games...

[henfan]

Are the fans the most important thing though? Or would the payouts from bowl games be important?

If you don't get fans buying tickets, chances are slim for landing bowl bids that mean something and make, rather than lose, money. As I mentioned in a previous post, the key to any successful FB program at the D-I level is paying fans. After that, you need an administration that makes good decisions with the generated revenue (i.e.- hiring able coaches, investing in FB facilities, marketing the program, etc.) Conference payouts are certainly helpful, especially to major conference teams. Payouts to non-major conference teams aren't usually lucrative enough to make up for poor attendance.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If you don't get fans buying tickets, chances are slim for landing bowl bids that mean something and make, rather than lose, money. As I mentioned in a previous post, the key to any successful FB program at the D-I level is paying fans...

In UConn's case, I'm not sure I'd agree with this. They had a standing invite to a BCS conference. That conference-wide check can make up for a lot of empty seats, especially when U. Miami was still a Big East team.

Unlike UConn, UMass doesn't have a standing invite to the Big East. If they did, this discussion would be completely different. They're talking going to FBS and either going as an independent or with the MAC or something - a much more risky, and less lucrative situation.

[DrG]

Only ND can go it as an independent. As for the MAC? Ugh. I hope that option never gets back on the table. With due respect to the MAC, which is an underrated football league, UMass is much better off in CAA playing long-standing rivals like UNH, URI, Maine and Delaware, and the revenue stream wouldn't be that much better. Somehow, I don't think Akron is going to bang out McGuirk Stadium.

[EmeryZach]

If they moved to FBS and built a new stadium near campus then they would also have to build a new highway because right now Route 9 is already bumper to bumper. There is no way it would ever work. The reason this has been coming up recently is because of UMass Chancellor John Lombardi who used to be the president of Florida. He was behind the expansion of their stadium down there. He was my prof for History of College Athletics and all he could talk about was making UMass a FBS team. He has been pushing this issue really hard. If it was up to him he would cut half the sports if it meant he could make our football team FBS.

[Col Hogan]

If they moved to FBS and built a new stadium near campus then they would also have to build a new highway because right now Route 9 is already bumper to bumper. There is no way it would ever work. The reason this has been coming up recently is because of UMass Chancellor John Lombardi who used to be who used to be the president of Florida. He was behind the expansion of their stadium down there. He was my prof for History of College Athletics and all he could talk about was making UMass a FBS team. He has been pushing this issue really hard. If it was up to him he would cut half the sports if it meant he could make our football team FBS.

Good info...was not aware of his push...but knowing Dr. Lombardi's background, it is not surprising...

I'm going to visit the campus for the first time in years later this month...I'll have to check out the traffic...I remember Rt. 9 could be a bear at times...

[MplsBison]

If they moved to FBS and built a new stadium near campus then they would also have to build a new highway because right now Route 9 is already bumper to bumper. There is no way it would ever work. The reason this has been coming up recently is because of UMass Chancellor John Lombardi who used to be who used to be the president of Florida. He was behind the expansion of their stadium down there. He was my prof for History of College Athletics and all he could talk about was making UMass a FBS team. He has been pushing this issue really hard. If it was up to him he would cut half the sports if it meant he could make our football team FBS.

Sometimes all it takes is a leader in upper administration who has the vision.


That's what happened at NDSU. Our move to FCS was overdue.

[MplsBison]

What's wrong with FCS in your opinion?

It should be for smaller state flagships and secondary state schools in larger states.


FBS is for state flagships in larger states, IMO.

[EmeryZach]

The state of Massachusetts is trying to make UMass Amherst huge. They

want to make the the football team FBS and they want to add another

20,000 students to the campus. They also recently have decided to cut

UMass Lowell's Division 1 hockey program so that they don't compete with

recruiting of players with UMass Amherst. And a lot of this has to do with

Chancellor Lombardi. He wants to take everything he did when he was at

Florida and apply it to UMass Amherst. I mean it's not the worst thing in

the world, it's just going to cost a lot of money we don't have. I mean

classes are already over crowded cause we don't have enough profs.

(I still love UMass though)

[henfan]

In UConn's case, I'm not sure I'd agree with this. They had a standing invite to a BCS conference. That conference-wide check can make up for a lot of empty seats, especially when U. Miami was still a Big East team.

UConn doesn't have very many empty seats at their FB games. I'd highly doubt that UConn's BCS distributions come anywhere near the ducks they clear from ticket sales.

You're very right though. UConn's was the exception because of their major conference affiliation guarantee. I have little doubt that a school like UMass, given the same sweetheart stadium deal and conference affiliation as UConn, wouldn't make the same move in a heartbeat.

[aceinthehole]

UConn doesn't have very many empty seats at their FB games. I'd highly doubt that UConn's BCS distributions come anywhere near the ducks they clear from ticket sales.

You're very right though. UConn's was the exception because of their major conference affiliation guarantee. I have little doubt that a school like UMass, given the same sweetheart stadium deal and conference affiliation as UConn, wouldn't make the same move in a heartbeat.

I'm not sure on the amount the Big East pays vs. ticket revenue, but Hen is probably right.

For the record, I think almost every UConn game at the Rent has be a sellout or near sellout. It may not look that way for early non-conference games games vs. Murry State, Akron, or URI, but all those empty seats have been bought.

Also, remember that the stadium has just 40,000k seats, a reasonable goal, and UConn has great corporate sponsors and support.

UConn got a BCS conference membership and a free stadium! They would have been stupid not to jump to I-A. Already, football makes more money than the basketball program in Storrs.

Here's the proof:
http://www.courant.com/news/local/hc-asked1227.artdec27,0,5852262.story?coll=hc-utility-local

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm not sure on the amount the Big East pays vs. ticket revenue, but Hen is probably right.

For the record, I think almost every UConn game at the Rent has be a sellout or near sellout. It may not look that way for early non-conference games games vs. Murry State, Akron, or URI, but all those empty seats have been bought.

Also, remember that the stadium has just 40,000k seats, a reasonable goal, and UConn has great corporate sponsors and support.

UConn got a BCS conference membership and a free stadium! They would have been stupid not to jump to I-A. Already, football makes more money than the basketball program in Storrs.

Here's the proof:
http://www.courant.com/news/local/hc-asked1227.artdec27,0,5852262.story?coll=hc-utility-local

Ahem:


Figured into football profits were ticket sales, Rentschler Field seat donations, game guarantees, radio rights, and television and bowl game revenues from the Big East Conference.

Note: bowl game revenues from the Conference. So (back in the day) if U Miami made the BCS Championship game, the whole conference got a fat check.

[aceinthehole]

Ahem:



Note: bowl game revenues from the Conference. So (back in the day) if U Miami made the BCS Championship game, the whole conference got a fat check.


You are correct, the BE members get a nice check every year, but they don't have many empty seats and have a ton of corporate boxes. :)

According to a WV paper the average BE football team recievs about $3.5 Mill, which is a small portion of UConn's 12 million in FB revenue.
http://sundaygazettemail.com/webtools/print/Sports/Mitch+Vingle/2007052621

But I think we can all agree UConn has been big sucess in I-A so far, and I doubt UMass could come close to matching it with ticket sales or conference reveune.

[EmeryZach]

Yeah the problem with UMass trying to turn FBS is the fan base. There are a lot of UMass alumni, and students for that matter, who follow Boston College football more than UMass. It's really hard to compete for college football fans when most of them are already on the BC bandwagon.

[umassfan]

The state of Massachusetts is trying to make UMass Amherst huge. They

want to make the the football team FBS and they want to add another

20,000 students to the campus. They also recently have decided to cut

UMass Lowell's Division 1 hockey program so that they don't compete with

recruiting of players with UMass Amherst. And a lot of this has to do with

Chancellor Lombardi. He wants to take everything he did when he was at

Florida and apply it to UMass Amherst. I mean it's not the worst thing in

the world, it's just going to cost a lot of money we don't have. I mean

classes are already over crowded cause we don't have enough profs.

(I still love UMass though)

You do know that the president of UMass is trying to force out Chancellor Lombardi and take control of all UMass's. He wants to take funding from Amherst and give it to other UMass schools.

[EmeryZach]

That doesn't suprise me much

[Seawolf97]

I guess part of the problem for any FCS is where do go if they want to move up. UMass is great team but could they make the quantum leap to lets say Conf-USA?
But I agree staying in the CAA is probably the best all around solution.

[tarmac]

I think a new IA conference would be great. Take the best East coast IAA's and maybe a few current IA's who need a change. UMass, Delaware, JMU, APP, GSU, maybe Army, Navy would make a good start. Who else( )? Big issue would be distance.

[Fresno St. Alum]

The group you have there is probably better than most of the Sun Belt

[UNHWILDCATS05]

The state of Massachusetts is trying to make UMass Amherst huge. They

want to make the the football team FBS and they want to add another

20,000 students to the campus. They also recently have decided to cut

UMass Lowell's Division 1 hockey program so that they don't compete with

recruiting of players with UMass Amherst. And a lot of this has to do with

Chancellor Lombardi. He wants to take everything he did when he was at

Florida and apply it to UMass Amherst. I mean it's not the worst thing in

the world, it's just going to cost a lot of money we don't have. I mean

classes are already over crowded cause we don't have enough profs.

(I still love UMass though)

Actually, I think it looks like the Riverhawks will be save.
http://www.uscho.com/news/id,14277/ReprieveForUMassLowellToBeDecidedTuesday.html

[EmeryZach]

That's good to hear. I thought they got a raw deal.

[dgreco]

I think a new IA conference would be great. Take the best East coast IAA's and maybe a few current IA's who need a change. UMass, Delaware, JMU, APP, GSU, maybe Army, Navy would make a good start. Who else( )? Big issue would be distance.

looks like it would be a fun conference to me, but poor old ND would be the last indy.

[DFW HOYA]

I think a new IA conference would be great. Take the best East coast IAA's and maybe a few current IA's who need a change. UMass, Delaware, JMU, APP, GSU, maybe Army, Navy would make a good start. Who else( )? Big issue would be distance.

Army
Buffalo
Delaware
James Madison
Liberty
Navy
Massachusetts
Temple

[Seawolf97]

A new full sports conference at the l-A level (FBS) sounds like a good approach. Plus the potential teams as DFWHoya posted - looks good. Who knows you see a few Big East schools jump in as non football members -Seton Hall, Providence. It would be a good change .

[dgreco]

A new full sports conference at the l-A level (FBS) sounds like a good approach. Plus the potential teams as DFWHoya posted - looks good. Who knows you see a few Big East schools jump in as non football members -Seton Hall, Providence. It would be a good change .

I wish Providence would jump in, they just cut their baseball program out. So I don't think they could fund a football team. It would be nice to see ND get out of Indy play. I know they have a lot of rivalries but still...

[Zoo]

looks like it would be a fun conference to me, but poor old ND would be the last indy.

Who cares? It's only little ol' Notre Dame. xlolx

[Seawolf97]

This might be a better approach than reforming another FCS conference if the CAA reaches the breaking point and teams want to go elsewhere. Move some of the big guns of the CAA into a new FBS conference along with a few existing FBS programs.

[EmeryZach]

That would be huge for college football in the northeast. The only FBS teams you really have are BC, UConn and Rutgers.

[MplsBison]

It'd be cool to see a NE football conference

Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, UMass, URI, Buffalo, Albany, and Stony Brook.

[EmeryZach]

I wish this was actually possible.

[Seawolf97]

Maybe it is something the Ad's may want to look at down the road. Hopefully the fans would support it.