Patriot League: A Lack of Focus(?)

[carney2]

I throw this out there with the hopes that we will smack each other around (some more). Anyway, from where I'm sitting it would appear that small private schools with limited athletic budgets can only do so much. At the moment it appears that

1. Bucknell, Fordham, Georgetown and Holy Cross are focused on basketball;

and

2. Colgate is focused on ice hockey (new arena in the offing);

SO

that leaves only Lafayette and Lehigh focused on football.

[RichH2]

My aren't we optimistic this AM. Hungover huh?

We could also say LU focused on wrestling.

GU and FU, I agree that football a poor stepchild to Bball. Doubt that will ever change. Football second to Bball at HC but I see much more effort there with Gilmore even tho a disappointing recruit class this yr. I think BU and Gate are as similar to LU and LC as is possible with different schools.

[LUHawker]

My aren't we optimistic this AM. Hungover huh?

We could also say LU focused on wrestling.

GU and FU, I agree that football a poor stepchild to Bball. Doubt that will ever change. Football second to Bball at HC but I see much more effort there with Gilmore even tho a disappointing recruit class this yr. I think BU and Gate are as similar to LU and LC as is possible with different schools.

I know there is a small, but very supportive group of Lehigh Wrestling die-hard fans, but the reality is that most of the students and fans couldn't care less about wrestling - I among them. Besides, from a $$ standpoint, wrestling doesn't require large outlays so I think it is very fair to say that Lehigh is focused on football.

[dgreco]

Well if Bryant does get into the Patriot League, they will add to the Football support, Bryant has had a very successfull Basketball program, but the students care and the SCHOOL cares about football more than anything.

[TheValleyRaider]

Colgate is quite a bit of a football school. Yeah, a new arena is in the works for hockey, but a new scoreboard combined with this potentially new lights/FieldTurf hardly screams "Football isn't a priority here" xeyebrowx

We spend just as much on football as LC/LU, it isn't the "Big 3" for nothing xtwocentsx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

carney, I think you're oversimplifying things. Specifically, you're ignoring the resurgence of football at Holy Cross (who, if it wasn't for Colgate, might have been playoff-bound in 2006), and the impact of men's basketball success over the entire league. Point being, it is quite possible for private schools to concentrate of different sports, and it's smart as well - because (recent history to the contrary) you can't count on any team to be dominant in any sport forever.

[ngineer]

I know there is a small, but very supportive group of Lehigh Wrestling die-hard fans, but the reality is that most of the students and fans couldn't care less about wrestling - I among them. Besides, from a $$ standpoint, wrestling doesn't require large outlays so I think it is very fair to say that Lehigh is focused on football.

I would beg to differ there...Yes, there is a large "casual' following of football than wrestling, but when it comes to the 'intense' fan, I would gather that wrestling is close to football. Wrestling has it's own booster club of 1,000. Football has none. Wrestling is outlaying significant dollars in SCHOLARSHIPS and is not bound by the 'grant in aid based on need' handcuffs. The wrestling team while smaller in terms of numbers (about 30) travels all over the country to wrestle the Oklahomas, Michigans, Iowas, Arizona States, etc. Not cheap. Grace Hall is virtually sold out for each match--and the big matches with Penn State, Cornell, Penn, Ariz.State have to be held in Stabler.
I agree that the advent of coeducation at Lehigh began a greater overall disinterest in wrestling, since most women do not follow the sport, that has been changing over recent years--especially with the team's very good showing in the NCAA's--people take notice when you're ranked in the upper eschelon. So I'd say Lehigh is focused on football AND wrestling. The grapplers have the 5th most national champions in the country, and Lehigh's reputation, when you go around the country, is still engineering and wrestling (despite our other outstanding colleges and teams.).

[Franks Tanks]

I understand that Colgate has a successful and prominent Hockey program, but I have always thought of them as a football school

[DFW HOYA]

At the moment it appears that Bucknell, Fordham, Georgetown and Holy Cross are focused on basketball...

I understand the concept, but doesn't Fordham spend nearly $4 million on football compared with just $1.8 million on basketball?

[dgreco]

I understand the concept, but doesn't Fordham spend nearly $4 million on football compared with just $1.8 million on basketball?

I think the numbers can be deceiving, I would look at percent of total budget compared to players. or how www.midmajority.com does it you do it by cost per win.

[colgate13]

Oversimplification carney.

Colgate is a football school in the fall, hockey in the winter, and fast becoming lacrosse in the spring - after not really having a spring focus.

I'd say if anything Colgate has found an excellent focus: concentrate on the sports that you can be successful in at the highest level possible. For us, we could legimately be a top 20 team in any given year in FCS football, Division I hockey and Division I lax. The more we solidfy that model, the better we're going to get across the board.

FWIW, the hockey arena is just what's next on the drawing board. Andy Kerr (especially with lights and turf) is more than adequate for our needs over the next 10 years (a varsity room like LC would be great, but not a necessity). Lax benefits from Andy Kerr as well as it has its own less than 10 year old stadium.

Hockey on the other hand is in an old, outdated building and if we intend on taking kids away from Cornell, Clarkson or Dartmouth or Hockey East for that matter, we need a top facility because right now the facility is a hinderence.

[LUHawker]

I would beg to differ there...Yes, there is a large "casual' following of football than wrestling, but when it comes to the 'intense' fan, I would gather that wrestling is close to football. Wrestling has it's own booster club of 1,000. Football has none. Wrestling is outlaying significant dollars in SCHOLARSHIPS and is not bound by the 'grant in aid based on need' handcuffs. The wrestling team while smaller in terms of numbers (about 30) travels all over the country to wrestle the Oklahomas, Michigans, Iowas, Arizona States, etc. Not cheap. Grace Hall is virtually sold out for each match--and the big matches with Penn State, Cornell, Penn, Ariz.State have to be held in Stabler.
I agree that the advent of coeducation at Lehigh began a greater overall disinterest in wrestling, since most women do not follow the sport, that has been changing over recent years--especially with the team's very good showing in the NCAA's--people take notice when you're ranked in the upper eschelon. So I'd say Lehigh is focused on football AND wrestling. The grapplers have the 5th most national champions in the country, and Lehigh's reputation, when you go around the country, is still engineering and wrestling (despite our other outstanding colleges and teams.).

Perhaps we are from different generations, but of all of my fraternity brothers, maybe one is interested in wrestling. However, nearly all of them have some interest in the football team. The school itself does emphasize wrestling, but I was more on the point that most students and alums don't care about wrestling.

[ngineer]

Perhaps we are from different generations, but of all of my fraternity brothers, maybe one is interested in wrestling. However, nearly all of them have some interest in the football team. The school itself does emphasize wrestling, but I was more on the point that most students and alums don't care about wrestling.


I would agree that more students are into football than wrestling. As far as the alums go--I also agree it can be generational--especially for the alums from the late 80's on when things were pretty lean for the grapplers. My view was more from the school's perspective. Per capita, I wouldn't be surprised if football and wrestling were about even.

[LUHawker]

I would agree that more students are into football than wrestling. As far as the alums go--I also agree it can be generational--especially for the alums from the late 80's on when things were pretty lean for the grapplers. My view was more from the school's perspective. Per capita, I wouldn't be surprised if football and wrestling were about even.

Per capita, I wouldn't be surprised if it were about even as well.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I agree. Although wrestling is sort-of a niche thing, it really gets a lot of fans at Lehigh. My father and I took my grandfather (who wrestled at Washington & Lee) to a wrestling match at Stabler when I was still an undergrad in the early 90's and it was basically sold-out. Folks clanged on the steel railings when they were trying to push the Lehigh wrestler for a pin. I remember it well. There was a more electrifying atmosphere that day than when we won the PL championship in 2004.

Point being, though, that certainly there is enough interest to develop multiple sports at PL institutions.

[carney2]

I was away for a few days. You people have been busy in my absence. Even the ghost of AGS past, Mr. 13, has chimed in. Lots of good comments as I hoped/expected. Some rejoinders:

I certainly considered Lehigh's rasslin' program when I started this. As posted by others, I don't believe that wrestling requires very much in athletic department/school resources vis a vis football, basketball, hockey or even many of the lesser sports that require lots of bodies. Also, I live near Lehigh and my radar tells me that Lehigh wrestling does not have quite the "buzz" that it did years ago. The move off campus and down to Stabler (yes, I realize that they have now moved back to Grace Hall) lost a few generations worth of student (and now alumni) support. I don't think that they have really gotten back to "the good old days." Someone called it a "niche sport." Perfect. In any event, I don't think that it is diverting much attention from football which is THE major event on Lehigh's annual athletic calendar.

A quick note to LFN about his "resurgence" of Holy Cross football comment: You and I are in complete disagreement here. HC football is, in my opinion, in big trouble. The offense is as one dimensional as you can possibly get and will go as far as Randolph's arm will allow. On that point, I will venture to say that any PL defensive coordinator who allows him to get away with what he did last year should be shot and fired, probably in that order. The defense is shaky and the recruiting is suspect. Other than the fact that Gilmore has pulled two consecutive rabbits out of a hat (and we are, after all, talking about the past here), I don't see much of a "resurgence."

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A quick note to LFN about his "resurgence" of Holy Cross football comment: You and I are in complete disagreement here. HC football is, in my opinion, in big trouble. The offense is as one dimensional as you can possibly get and will go as far as Randolph's arm will allow. On that point, I will venture to say that any PL defensive coordinator who allows him to get away with what he did last year should be shot and fired, probably in that order. The defense is shaky and the recruiting is suspect. Other than the fact that Gilmore has pulled two consecutive rabbits out of a hat (and we are, after all, talking about the past here), I don't see much of a "resurgence."

Once could be a rabbit, but twice is a pattern. Granted I don't see a natural successor to Dan Adams on this defense yet, but that offense is still the real deal in my mind. If that Lehigh game was played in 50 degree weather on a pristine field, it's quite possible we would have spent the offseason talking about Holy Cross going 8-3 and can they repeat.

[already123]

is the patriot league even relevant anymore?

[LUHawker]

is the patriot league even relevant anymore?

Quite a question coming from an NAU supporter. I suggest you look in the mirror and answer that one for yourself first.

[carney2]

Once could be a rabbit, but twice is a pattern. Granted I don't see a natural successor to Dan Adams on this defense yet, but that offense is still the real deal in my mind. If that Lehigh game was played in 50 degree weather on a pristine field, it's quite possible we would have spent the offseason talking about Holy Cross going 8-3 and can they repeat.

Correction: Once is a rabbit. Twice is a great magician. The question is not "How are they gonna do in 2007?" The question should be "How will they do without Randolph?" Not only will his time in Worcester eventually end, but, with defenses gunning for him, you have to question his survival probabilities in any given season. Personally, I have the 'saders penciled in for a 5th place finish this year.

[Fordham]

perhaps carney - heck, this is the offseason and we can all guess all we want. I understand where your skepticism is coming from; however, I can't stop thinking about the fact that we're all here talking about how strong their offense is and yet they lost a ton of top PL talent the year before and didn't see an offensive drop off. If nothing else, Gilmore has at least shown that he can deal with having some studs like Silva, et. al., leave and still remain in the title hunt, which is more than you can say about any other team that hasn't been part of the PL Big 3 for the past few years. I really think they deserve the title of team most likely to break into the "Big 3" and it would be no colossal upset to see them compete for the crown; whereas having Bucknell, Fordham or G-town in the mix towards the end of the season would be a strong surprise (imo).

[PLLB]

i am not sold on holy cross either in order to win in the patriot league (any league) you have to be able to stop the run and run the ball esp. late in games.

[Franks Tanks]

is the patriot league even relevant anymore?

Please we have had 2 teams in the playoffs 3 of the last 5 years( I believe) and had a team make it all the way to the NC game not so long ago. We obviously had a bad year overall last year, but that was one year. When was the last time a Big Sky team not named Montana did anything?

[DFW HOYA]

The fact that this thread has jumped from Bryant to wrestling and everywhere in betwen is symptomatic of a loss of focus.

Sometimes, it appears from the outside that the PL really doesn't know what it wants to be--a multi-bid I-AA conference where football sits alone at the top, or a collection of small and rural liberal arts schools.

No offense to Bryant, Marist, etc., but why isn't anyone giving some thought as to what it would take to approach the A-10 members in the CAA (UMass, URI, Richmond) plus Villanova to consider the PL as a suitable option whan the CAA adds more of its own schools? They would be associate members, yes, but the potential is there if the CAA simply gets too big to effectively run its conference and the PL has the scholarship angle covered.

Maybe the idea of these larger schools upsetting the status quo is too much of a jump for Rev. Brooks' NESCAC-like vision, but what is to gain with adding a school who has been playing football for only seven years, unless that's where the league is headed?

[colorless raider]

His thoughts about scholarships and the subsequent appeal to certain A-10is is the direction to go in. Meanwhile the Patriot Presidents fiddle while the League declines in football. DO SOMETHING!!!!

[colgate13]

I'm in carney's HC boat. I'm not a believer.

Now Lafayette? I'm a believer in them now! I didn't used to be. :)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The fact that this thread has jumped from Bryant to wrestling and everywhere in betwen is symptomatic of a loss of focus.

Sometimes, it appears from the outside that the PL really doesn't know what it wants to be--a multi-bid I-AA conference where football sits alone at the top, or a collection of small and rural liberal arts schools.

No offense to Bryant, Marist, etc., but why isn't anyone giving some thought as to what it would take to approach the A-10 members in the CAA (UMass, URI, Richmond) plus Villanova to consider the PL as a suitable option whan the CAA adds more of its own schools? They would be associate members, yes, but the potential is there if the CAA simply gets too big to effectively run its conference and the PL has the scholarship angle covered.

Maybe the idea of these larger schools upsetting the status quo is too much of a jump for Rev. Brooks' NESCAC-like vision, but what is to gain with adding a school who has been playing football for only seven years, unless that's where the league is headed?

Simply, do you want a choice in expansion in the form of a lot of "maybe's" and "we'll see what happens?" Or do you want one or two schools that have professed interest in the Patriot League? We could wait for 20 years and nothing could happen on that front.

And the likelihood of Villanova diminishing their sort-of rivalry with Delaware is near zero in my mind. To me, the dreams of prying away schools from one of the top mid-major conferences in basketball is not a very likely scenario. Last year all the CAA schools got a nice check from the NCAA since George Mason made the Final Four. Who's going to voluntarily give up the chance at another check?

[DFW HOYA]

Simply, do you want a choice in expansion in the form of a lot of "maybe's" and "we'll see what happens?" Or do you want one or two schools that have professed interest in the Patriot League? We could wait for 20 years and nothing could happen on that front.

It's a fair question, but conferences have to think long term. Those conferences that are planned on short notice are the ones which have to deal with the tensions of membership--the Big East for one, but also the CAA for this board's discussion. The wide range of schools and missions (Drexel, James Madison, Georgia State, Hofstra, UNCW, etc.) is an issue that league will have to address. If there is a pressing need for expansion (a hedge on the the autobid, for example), that's one thing, but I can't tell if this is yet the case.