NCAA considers allowing all transfers to play immediately

[The Cats]

The NCAA on Tuesday took the next step toward dropping its transfer restrictions and allowing all student-athletes a 1-time waiver to move schools and play immediately.

Such a proposal is now under consideration by the NCAA’s Division I Transfer Working Group. A new rule could come into effect by the 2020-21 academic year.

Presently, athletes in all sports except football, basketball, baseball and men’s hockey can transfer and play immediately.

https://footballscoop.com/news/ncaa-takes-next-step-toward-allowing-all-transfers-to-play-immediately/

[Professor Chaos]

Good for the student-athletes.

Bad for the FCS.

[Laker]

If coaches can move, athletes should be able to also.

[Daytripper]

If coaches can move, athletes should be able to also.

I'm okay with it, especially with the one transfer limit. That will prevent players from jumping from program to program. You get one do-over. Also, like you said, student-athletes should be able to move on especially if their coach leaves.

[JayJ79]

will conferences still be able to set their own rules in regards to intra-conference transfers? (transferring from one school to a different school in the same conference)

[WestCoastAggie]

This shouldn’t hurt anyone but FBS schools that stockpile talent.

[Chalupa Batman]

Currently schools can pull a scholarship from a kid after any year for any reason, including “we just found someone better.” As long as this is the case I am all for allowing the kids to transfer out without having to sit out a year.

What I would like to see is schools would have to make a 4 year commitment when it signs a kid. As long as that student is enrolled in school his education is taken care of, even if he can’t play because of something out of his control like an injury. If that ever becomes the case then the NCAA could go back to the 1 year sit-out period, unless there’s a coaching change. Kids commit to coaches now more than schools, so if the coach changes then the student-athlete would be able to transfer without sitting out a year.

[Baron Sardonicus]

What I would like to see is schools would have to make a 4 year commitment when it signs a kid. As long as that student is enrolled in school his education is taken care of, even if he can’t play because of something out of his control like an injury.

That's the way it was from the mid-1950s until about 1973. Coaches successfully lobbied for the current system, however, because a number of kids were quitting their teams, and simply taking the free education.

I suppose a middle road might be to make the aid conditional on being eligible and participating as a team member (Patriot League 1990s-style). Otherwise, commit to irrevocable 4/5-year scholarships.

[Bisonoline]

That's the way it was from the mid-1950s until about 1973. Coaches successfully lobbied for the current system, however, because a number of kids were quitting their teams, and simply taking the free education.

I suppose a middle road might be to make the aid conditional on being eligible and participating as a team member (Patriot League 1990s-style). Otherwise, commit to irrevocable 4/5-year scholarships.

The years 1970 to 1974 is when I played. I knew of no players who quit and kept their scholarship. If you were injured and couldnt play you kept it. If you quit the team you didnt.

[Chalupa Batman]

That's the way it was from the mid-1950s until about 1973. Coaches successfully lobbied for the current system, however, because a number of kids were quitting their teams, and simply taking the free education.

I suppose a middle road might be to make the aid conditional on being eligible and participating as a team member (Patriot League 1990s-style). Otherwise, commit to irrevocable 4/5-year scholarships.

I should have said "his education is taken care of, but ONLY if he can't play because of something out of his control (which would be injury the majority of the time)."


The years 1970 to 1974 is when I played. I knew of no players who quit and kept their scholarship. If you were injured and couldnt play you kept it. If you quit the team you didnt.

I agree that if you quit the team and expect to stay in school you are on your own to pay for it, because you aren't honoring your commitment so the school is no longer bound to theirs.

In terms of injury, I think most schools do continue to honor the scholarship as long as the kid stays in school, but there are some that don't. I just think the school shouldn't even have that option to pull it because of injury.

[Bisonoline]

I should have said "his education is taken care of, but ONLY if he can't play because of something out of his control (which would be injury the majority of the time)."



I agree that if you quit the team and expect to stay in school you are on your own to pay for it, because you aren't honoring your commitment so the school is no longer bound to theirs.

In terms of injury, I think most schools do continue to honor the scholarship as long as the kid stays in school, but there are some that don't. I just think the school shouldn't even have that option to pull it because of injury.

I agree.

[FormerPokeCenter]

That's the way it was from the mid-1950s until about 1973. Coaches successfully lobbied for the current system, however, because a number of kids were quitting their teams, and simply taking the free education.

I suppose a middle road might be to make the aid conditional on being eligible and participating as a team member (Patriot League 1990s-style). Otherwise, commit to irrevocable 4/5-year scholarships.


Read "Meat On The Hoof" by a guy named Gary Shaw, who was on Scholarship at the University of Texas...in the late 60's, I believe.....Fred Akers was an assistant to Darrel Royal, and was in charge of running off the players who they didn't evaluate properly. They had four year rides that only terminated if the player quit the team. As long as he didn't quit, he had a full ride, regardless of whether or not he was worth a ****. Shaw and the other misfits were brought in for extra conditioning...they made them wear sweats and work out in the steam heated basement, with the heat turned up to about 130...if they quit, they forfeited their scholarships...so...Shaw documents just how hard he worked NOT to quit, so he could continue to go to school...

In the late 70's, early 80's, everybody had gone to a 1-year renewable ride.

[NY Crusader 2010]

This shouldn’t hurt anyone but FBS schools that stockpile talent.

The rule will hurt FCS schools relative to the G5. Right now the FCS as a whole is a beneficiary of the transfer rule requiring players to sit out a year. Currently, a non-graduate student athlete at a power program who wants to leave because of playing issues, coaching change, culture, etc. has to sit out a year if he transfers to either another power program or a G5. However, if that player prefers to play right away, he can go FCS and be immediately eligible. With this rule change, that player can now transfer to say, Old Dominion, in stead of James Madison or Towson. Or Temple instead of Delaware. Or Troy instead of Jacksonville State. Not to mention breakout stars at our level would now be free to transfer up without having to sit out. Why WOULDN'T someone like NDSU's frosh QB jump to a Big Ten or Big 12 school immediately if promised the starting job?

On the basketball side, most schools that currently sponsor FCS football would be considered mid-majors (not looking at you Villanova, Butler or Georgetown). In basketball, the amended transfer rule would probably be a wash. Sure, maybe Stephen Curry leaves Davidson for Virginia Tech after his freshman year, or CJ McCollum (Lehigh) for Kansas. However, on the flip side, many guys dissatisfied with playing time at power schools would certainly look to smaller Division I programs for the opportunity to secure playing time right away without having to sit out a year.

[clenz]

It's in the NCAA handbook that schools can continue aid for a student athlete forced into medical retirement, and do so while not being a counter towards the scholarship limit.

Very very very few places won't continue to have a kid on scholarship. Hell, the extreme majority keep them with the program and put them into various student coaching roles.

I think we'd be hard pressed to find more than a few examples of programs pulling a kid off scholarship at the time of a medical retirement.

[Anthony215]

I don't think this will hurt FCS too much as many of the kids who drop down from FBS to FCS have burned a redshirt year or transfered once already. What this will do is give more kids who take those PWO P5 offers more of a chance of getting to a G5 school after seeing they aren't climbing the depth chart as quickly as they thought. I'm all for giving the players the same freedom coaches have to up and leave for better opportunities.

[Professor Chaos]

I don't think this will hurt FCS too much as many of the kids who drop down from FBS to FCS have burned a redshirt year or transfered once already. What this will do is give more kids who take those PWO P5 offers more of a chance of getting to a G5 school after seeing they aren't climbing the depth chart as quickly as they thought. I'm all for giving the players the same freedom coaches have to up and leave for better opportunities.
Those FBS transfers who have already burned redshirts are the guys that would now have the opportunity to go to another FBS school instead of dropping to FCS. In the past if they transferred to another FBS school they'd lose a year of eligibility whereas if this rule is put in place they'd have the same number of remaining years of eligibility at an FBS school as they would at an FCS school (assuming it's their first transfer). I think it will hurt FCS schools that are used to getting more than a couple FBS transfers per year because they're going to get fewer impact FBS transfers.

The flip side is there's still the same amount of FBS scholarships and roster spots as there were before so overall transfers to FCS schools will be the same or even higher (because of this rule) but the trickle down on the transfer food chain will be more like P5->G5->FCS instead of P5/G5->FCS.

[PAllen]

The years 1970 to 1974 is when I played. I knew of no players who quit and kept their scholarship. If you were injured and couldnt play you kept it. If you quit the team you didnt.

The way it should be.

[clenz]

The way it should be.
The way it is.

[walliver]

I'm not a big fan of this. Most of the great FCS players have been those who flew under the P5 radar. Schools may invest time, effort and money into training and a redshirt year just to have a player leave when a better offer arrives. This isn't an issue for FBS, but with FCS limited scholarships, this could be a burden. What we may see in the future is coaches taking a new job and taking their best players with them.

[Laker]

Read "Meat On The Hoof" by a guy named Gary Shaw, who was on Scholarship at the University of Texas...in the late 60's, I believe.....Fred Akers was an assistant to Darrel Royal, and was in charge of running off the players who they didn't evaluate properly. They had four year rides that only terminated if the player quit the team. As long as he didn't quit, he had a full ride, regardless of whether or not he was worth a ****. Shaw and the other misfits were brought in for extra conditioning...they made them wear sweats and work out in the steam heated basement, with the heat turned up to about 130...if they quit, they forfeited their scholarships...so...Shaw documents just how hard he worked NOT to quit, so he could continue to go to school...

In the late 70's, early 80's, everybody had gone to a 1-year renewable ride.

I had that book. "**** drills" is what they called it when there was no other reason but to run players off. Didn't put a good light on Darrel Royal. Shaw ended up in the drug scene. It was pretty interesting.

Another book like that was Dave Meggyesy's Out of Their League. He played at Syracuse and for the Cardinals.

[technocat]

I'm not a big fan of this. Most of the great FCS players have been those who flew under the P5 radar. Schools may invest time, effort and money into training and a redshirt year just to have a player leave when a better offer arrives. This isn't an issue for FBS, but with FCS limited scholarships, this could be a burden. What we may see in the future is coaches taking a new job and taking their best players with them.

Yeah it makes you wonder if a top FCS coach moves to a crappy G5 school and takes half his starters with him.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This is a disaster for the FCS. It's going to become like men's basketball, only worse. In hoops, schools look over the NEC Players of the Year and then just openly recruit them to go to their schools. In football, allowing this to happen is going to gut teams.

NDSU could develop an all-league RB as a sophomore. After signing day, Nebraska could simply offer him a scholarship and he's gone, and NDSU would suddenly have a massive hole to fill with only a possible late scholarship or transfer offer to do so.

It makes a mockery of it being about classes or academics, because the kid could be midway through the semester when all this is happening. How is that good for either star players or regular student-athletes?

The ONLY winners here are the already-rich schools, who can now manage their players like employees and use this indentured servitude to grab the very best players from the rest of Division I while needing to pay no school or no player in return. It is an absolute ****storm of a rule and is a disaster in the making.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The rule will hurt FCS schools relative to the G5. Right now the FCS as a whole is a beneficiary of the transfer rule requiring players to sit out a year. Currently, a non-graduate student athlete at a power program who wants to leave because of playing issues, coaching change, culture, etc. has to sit out a year if he transfers to either another power program or a G5. However, if that player prefers to play right away, he can go FCS and be immediately eligible. With this rule change, that player can now transfer to say, Old Dominion, in stead of James Madison or Towson. Or Temple instead of Delaware. Or Troy instead of Jacksonville State. Not to mention breakout stars at our level would now be free to transfer up without having to sit out. Why WOULDN'T someone like NDSU's frosh QB jump to a Big Ten or Big 12 school immediately if promised the starting job?

On the basketball side, most schools that currently sponsor FCS football would be considered mid-majors (not looking at you Villanova, Butler or Georgetown). In basketball, the amended transfer rule would probably be a wash. Sure, maybe Stephen Curry leaves Davidson for Virginia Tech after his freshman year, or CJ McCollum (Lehigh) for Kansas. However, on the flip side, many guys dissatisfied with playing time at power schools would certainly look to smaller Division I programs for the opportunity to secure playing time right away without having to sit out a year.

I broadly agree, but look at what happens in conferences like the NEC. A whole hell of a lot of their hoops players take the first train out of dodge to power programs. Many more than go the other direction.

[Professor Chaos]

This is a disaster for the FCS. It's going to become like men's basketball, only worse. In hoops, schools look over the NEC Players of the Year and then just openly recruit them to go to their schools. In football, allowing this to happen is going to gut teams.

NDSU could develop an all-league RB as a sophomore. After signing day, Nebraska could simply offer him a scholarship and he's gone, and NDSU would suddenly have a massive hole to fill with only a possible late scholarship or transfer offer to do so.

It makes a mockery of it being about classes or academics, because the kid could be midway through the semester when all this is happening. How is that good for either star players or regular student-athletes?

The ONLY winners here are the already-rich schools, who can now manage their players like employees and use this indentured servitude to grab the very best players from the rest of Division I while needing to pay no school or no player in return. It is an absolute ****storm of a rule and is a disaster in the making.
Wow... overreact much???

There's still the same amount of players rostered and on scholarship on those "already-rich schools". That means there's either going to be better recruits available for schools down the food chain or there's going to be transfers down the food chain as well.

It is ironic though how last fall there were several posters claiming how the new California law allowing student-athletes to make money off their likeness was going to ruin college sports and make the big boys even bigger and how you're throwing in the quips about "indentured servitude" from student athletes benefitting these same big schools.

I guess the one thing everyone can agree on is the game will be RUINED.... apparently the disagreement is just about what new rule will make it happen.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There's still the same amount of players rostered and on scholarship on those "already-rich schools". That means there's either going to be better recruits available for schools down the food chain or there's going to be transfers down the food chain as well.

It is ironic though how last fall there were several posters claiming how the new California law allowing student-athletes to make money off their likeness was going to ruin college sports and make the big boys even bigger and how you're throwing in the quips about "indentured servitude" from student athletes benefitting these same big schools.

I guess the one thing everyone can agree on is the game will be RUINED.... apparently the disagreement is just about what new rule will make it happen.

"Down the food chain" makes my point perfectly.

As far as the athletes go, perhaps a handful will "benefit" with a higher draft position or something. But a whole lot more will not. Also similar to what's already happened in hoops.

[Professor Chaos]

"Down the food chain" makes my point perfectly.

As far as the athletes go, perhaps a handful will "benefit" with a higher draft position or something. But a whole lot more will not. Also similar to what's already happened in hoops.
Benefit is very subjective in these scenarios. Just because a player doesn't become a star at his new school doesn't necessarily mean that transferring wasn't in his best interest. I agree with letting the athlete decide what's best for them. I don't deny that this rule would hurt the FCS somewhat but, like I said with that California law, it's not going to be some type of seismic change. For all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about all the transfers in college basketball there's as much parity as there has ever been in the sport.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Benefit is very subjective in these scenarios. Just because a player doesn't become a star at his new school doesn't necessarily mean that transferring wasn't in his best interest. I agree with letting the athlete decide what's best for them. I don't deny that this rule would hurt the FCS somewhat but, like I said with that California law, it's not going to be some type of seismic change. For all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about all the transfers in college basketball there's as much parity as there has ever been in the sport.

The California law was bull****. It basically was like the sequester: "NCAA, come up with a solution or we'll do this terrible thing!" Well, the NCAA came up with one that they think won't wreck college sports and (shocker!) nobody was happy. If California ends up going through with their threats, it WILL be a disaster. But like I said, their law was bull**** anyway.

This current NCAA move is bull**** because it is saying that the Lehigh's and NDSU's are simply farm teams for Nebraska and Penn State. Lehigh has no protection that when the 6'0 220 lb LB they recruited out of high school suddenly grows 5 inches and gains 20 lbs after his freshman year that Penn State won't offer him a scholarship in March of his junior year. Lehigh took time an energy to find the kid, build him and make him into a Division I football player... and then he can just leave and Lehigh gets nothing. The fact that it's easier for Lehigh to sign the oft-injured LB from Penn State coming back from knee surgery entering the transfer portal doesn't make that better, or fair.

I am not opposed in principle to kids moving. If they have graduated and want to sit on a bench at Memphis for their final year of eligibility, I'm perfectly OK with that. But it has to be done in a manner that makes academic protection the top priority.

[clenz]

The funny thing

Iowa passed a law identical to the California law last week to go into effect the same time as the CA law

Not one person bitched about it.

It didn't even make the news in Iowa...at all.

[Bisonoline]

This is a disaster for the FCS. It's going to become like men's basketball, only worse. In hoops, schools look over the NEC Players of the Year and then just openly recruit them to go to their schools. In football, allowing this to happen is going to gut teams.

NDSU could develop an all-league RB as a sophomore. After signing day, Nebraska could simply offer him a scholarship and he's gone, and NDSU would suddenly have a massive hole to fill with only a possible late scholarship or transfer offer to do so.

It makes a mockery of it being about classes or academics, because the kid could be midway through the semester when all this is happening. How is that good for either star players or regular student-athletes?

The ONLY winners here are the already-rich schools, who can now manage their players like employees and use this indentured servitude to grab the very best players from the rest of Division I while needing to pay no school or no player in return. It is an absolute ****storm of a rule and is a disaster in the making.

Of course you go nuclear. Its your mo.
I really dont think you are going to see alot of movement from established started in FB. Most of the movement will be from players who get lost in the numbers game shuffle and are looking for playing time.. Plus you always have the cases where a kid shows up and finds out the school just isnt the right fit.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sadly, NDSU Nation will not care until the very moment Minnesota, Nebraska, or some other Big 10 school poaches Trey Lance. Then the pitchforks will come out, and it will be too late.

[Derby City Duke]

How will we ever field a team...? xpeacex

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The funny thing

Iowa passed a law identical to the California law last week to go into effect the same time as the CA law

Not one person bitched about it.

It didn't even make the news in Iowa...at all.

Because it's a bull**** law

[Bisonoline]

Sadly, NDSU Nation will not care until the very moment Minnesota, Nebraska, or some other Big 10 school poaches Trey Lance. Then the pitchforks will come out, and it will be too late.

xcoffeex

[JayJ79]

re: the earlier discussion about players "quitting the team" and whether or not the school can cancel their scholarship.

How does that factor in when a player "enters the transfer portal" and basically stops playing in the middle of their current season? Or does it right after the season.
Does the school still have to honor the scholarship for that semester? What about the spring semester? (assuming the student doesn't transfer and enroll at a new school already by spring semester)

I mean, it would be one thing if the player announced the intention of wanting to transfer, but then plays out the remainder of the season (would be kind of like a pro player playing out the final contract year before free agency), but that doesn't seem to be the case typically, as it seems like whenever it is announced that they intend to transfer, they pretty much cut ties with their current team

[Bisonoline]

re: the earlier discussion about players "quitting the team" and whether or not the school can cancel their scholarship.

How does that factor in when a player "enters the transfer portal" and basically stops playing in the middle of their current season? Or does it right after the season.
Does the school still have to honor the scholarship for that semester? What about the spring semester? (assuming the student doesn't transfer and enroll at a new school already by spring semester)

I mean, it would be one thing if the player announced the intention of wanting to transfer, but then plays out the remainder of the season (would be kind of like a pro player playing out the final contract year before free agency), but that doesn't seem to be the case typically, as it seems like whenever it is announced that they intend to transfer, they pretty much cut ties with their current team

Who announces they are transferring during the season?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Who announces they are transferring during the season?

Two Lehigh players did just that. It messed up the team, IMO.

[clenz]

Who announces they are transferring during the season?
Happens a ton.

To answer the question - they are on scholarship through the end of the semester.

Technically can a school go back, revoke, and go after the kid for tuition money? Yes....they can. SHSU did that a year or two ago with the RB or QB or something like that. I think eventually the bad PR of it got them to relent.

Any program/admin that isn't complete **** won't take the money from the kid. It's not like they can assign it to another kid mid season (I don't think) or that they even would do so. Especially the FCS level it would be "banked" as a savings by at least 99% of the programs.

[Professor Chaos]

The California law was bull****. It basically was like the sequester: "NCAA, come up with a solution or we'll do this terrible thing!" Well, the NCAA came up with one that they think won't wreck college sports and (shocker!) nobody was happy. If California ends up going through with their threats, it WILL be a disaster. But like I said, their law was bull**** anyway.

This current NCAA move is bull**** because it is saying that the Lehigh's and NDSU's are simply farm teams for Nebraska and Penn State. Lehigh has no protection that when the 6'0 220 lb LB they recruited out of high school suddenly grows 5 inches and gains 20 lbs after his freshman year that Penn State won't offer him a scholarship in March of his junior year. Lehigh took time an energy to find the kid, build him and make him into a Division I football player... and then he can just leave and Lehigh gets nothing. The fact that it's easier for Lehigh to sign the oft-injured LB from Penn State coming back from knee surgery entering the transfer portal doesn't make that better, or fair.

I am not opposed in principle to kids moving. If they have graduated and want to sit on a bench at Memphis for their final year of eligibility, I'm perfectly OK with that. But it has to be done in a manner that makes academic protection the top priority.
Schools won't be recruiting athletes who haven't already entered the transfer portal. I'm sure some of that would/does go on but it wouldn't be widespread because schools that push the envelope there are really exposing themselves since the schools that are getting players poached aren't going to appreciate it and I'm sure will report it if they find out Penn St or Nebraska is talking to athletes about transferring who haven't entered the portal yet.

I don't think you're worried about academic protection like you claim to be. I think you're worried about smaller schools losing their investment which isn't the right way to look at student-athletes IMO. They should have the opportunity to transfer if they feel that's the best move for them either athletically or academically. If Trey Lance transfers to Nebraska I'm sure I'll be peeved what right do I have to tell him what is or isn't best for himself? If you're worried about protecting the student-athletes than rules like these are good things not bad things IMO.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

If coaches can move, athletes should be able to also.

Not trying to single you out, here, but I'm so sick of hearing this. There's at least 2 big things that make this comparison bogus:

1. Coaches have buyouts in their contracts. Player transfers don't have to pay anything to go anywhere else. Contracts keep coaches from going wherever they want whenever they want with no consequences.

2. Coaches can get fired if they don't pan out like their ADs and fans hope they will. Players can keep their scholarship even if they don't pan out the way their coaches hope.

It's absolutely ridiculous that we've turned athletes who can get free rides to top-tier universities with admissions bars significantly lower than the population at large into an oppressed class.

Besides, there are already penalty-free transfer avenues:
1. Transfer down.
2. Work your arse off and get eligible for a grad transfer.

[JayJ79]

2. Coaches can get fired if they don't pan out like their ADs and fans hope they will. Players can keep their scholarship even if they don't pan out the way their coaches hope.
Coaches can get fired for cause, sure (if they get into legal trouble or get caught violating NCAA rules).
if they get fired due to lack of success (without the aforementioned causes), then the school would have to buy out the contract and pay the coach as per the terms of the contract.

Whether or not players can keep their scholarship if they don't "pan out" depends on if the scholarship is multi-year or single-year. would it not?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Big 10 is almost entirely behind this effort, so you can absolutely bet the first thing they are going to do if this comes to be is to pick NDSU clean, whether NDSU fans believe this or not.

[Bisonoline]

The Big 10 is almost entirely behind this effort, so you can absolutely bet the first thing they are going to do if this comes to be is to pick NDSU clean, whether NDSU fans believe this or not.

xlolx

[WestCoastAggie]

The Big 10 is almost entirely behind this effort, so you can absolutely bet the first thing they are going to do if this comes to be is to pick NDSU clean, whether NDSU fans believe this or not.
theyre actually going to be pulling kids from other P5 programs before they look towards the MVFC. If anything, you’ll see a G5, CAA or MVFC school plucking the first team guys from the MEAC and SWAC

[Lehigh Football Nation]

theyre actually going to be pulling kids from other P5 programs before they look towards the MVFC. If anything, you’ll see a G5, CAA or MVFC school plucking the first team guys from the MEAC and SWAC

Big 10 schools are quite aware that NDSU is better than almost all of the other G5 programs

[WestCoastAggie]

Big 10 schools are quite aware that NDSU is better than almost all of the other G5 programs

I don’t know man. This proposal isn’t going to gut the top FCS teams as we think it would. Basketball, on the other hand, is another story.

[Bisonoline]

Big 10 schools are quite aware that NDSU is better than almost all of the other G5 programs

Finally you speak the truth.xthumbsupx

[Redbird 4th & short]

This is a disaster for the FCS. ..............

NDSU could develop an all-league RB as a sophomore. After signing day, Nebraska could simply offer him a scholarship and he's gone, and NDSU would suddenly have a massive hole to fill with only a possible late scholarship or transfer offer to do so.

............................

.......................... It is an absolute ****storm of a rule and is a disaster in the making.

Having difficulty figuring out if you are saying this would be a good thing or a bad thing ??

xconfusedx

xlolx

[Redbird 4th & short]

The Big 10 is almost entirely behind this effort, so you can absolutely bet the first thing they are going to do if this comes to be is to pick NDSU clean, whether NDSU fans believe this or not.

I just don't see this happening a lot to NDSU .. I would assume they would be better at retaining their guys better than most FCS programs. Besides, they win because of their entire system, start with recruiting and development and all the way game planning and execution. Mainly, they find and develop the right players .. and buy in is a whole lot easier when you're winning Nattys. I honestly don't believe it's because they are loaded with FBS talent, any more than most top 10 programs .. though they may have better depth because of their entire system.

[Chalupa Batman]

The Big 10 is almost entirely behind this effort, so you can absolutely bet the first thing they are going to do if this comes to be is to pick NDSU clean, whether NDSU fans believe this or not.

Like Chaos said, P5 coaches aren't going to be on campuses of G5/FCS teams handing out flyers for their schools to any player they think is good enough to play for them. They have to enter the transfer portal first and re-open their recruitment.

Even if the P5 schools could do that, I don't think NDSU would be picked clean anyway. If and when the P5 schools do go recruiting a potential transfer, they are most often going to be looking at players that can be difference makers for them. While many of the players at NDSU (and other FCS schools) can play at P5 schools, most at best would be "solid" players or 2nd string/depth players. Not exactly the type of players that Wisconsin, Iowa, etc. are going to come knocking down our door for.

At the end of the day, there are still the same number of scholarships available, and the same number of kids available to fill those scholarships. There will be some reshuffling I'm sure, but it will be pretty minimal. Maybe more for basketball but not so much in football.

[Bisonoline]

Not trying to single you out, here, but I'm so sick of hearing this. There's at least 2 big things that make this comparison bogus:

1. Coaches have buyouts in their contracts. Player transfers don't have to pay anything to go anywhere else. Contracts keep coaches from going wherever they want whenever they want with no consequences.

2. Coaches can get fired if they don't pan out like their ADs and fans hope they will. Players can keep their scholarship even if they don't pan out the way their coaches hope.

It's absolutely ridiculous that we've turned athletes who can get free rides to top-tier universities with admissions bars significantly lower than the population at large into an oppressed class.

Besides, there are already penalty-free transfer avenues:
1. Transfer down.
2. Work your arse off and get eligible for a grad transfer.


Your supposed points really arent valid to the point at hand. Plus there are conferences that have higher academic standards that what the NCAA requires.

[Bisonoline]

This is a disaster for the FCS. It's going to become like men's basketball, only worse. In hoops, schools look over the NEC Players of the Year and then just openly recruit them to go to their schools. In football, allowing this to happen is going to gut teams.

NDSU could develop an all-league RB as a sophomore. After signing day, Nebraska could simply offer him a scholarship and he's gone, and NDSU would suddenly have a massive hole to fill with only a possible late scholarship or transfer offer to do so.

It makes a mockery of it being about classes or academics, because the kid could be midway through the semester when all this is happening. How is that good for either star players or regular student-athletes?

The ONLY winners here are the already-rich schools, who can now manage their players like employees and use this indentured servitude to grab the very best players from the rest of Division I while needing to pay no school or no player in return. It is an absolute ****storm of a rule and is a disaster in the making.

You might want to check the NCAA rules on tampering.

[KPSUL]

An unfortunate consequence is that we are going to see more FCS players transferring to FBS programs if they don't have to sit out a full season. On the plus side, at least from my perspective, we'll see far less FBS to FCS transfers. A number of programs, to include JMU, ISUred, JSU and several others have built very competitive football teams by going heavily down this route - it will be interesting to see how they do when quality FBS transfers opt more for other FBS programs.

[Bisonoline]

I don’t know man. This proposal isn’t going to gut the top FCS teams as we think it would. Basketball, on the other hand, is another story.

He just trying to get a troll going.

[Bisonoline]

An unfortunate consequence is that we are going to see more FCS players transferring to FBS programs if they don't have to sit out a full season. On the plus side, at least from my perspective, we'll see far less FBS to FCS transfers. A number of programs, to include JMU, ISUred, JSU and several others have built very competitive football teams by going heavily down this route - it will be interesting to see how they do when quality FBS transfers opt more for other FBS programs.

You wont have many FCS players moving up. As a matter of fact you dont find much FBS interest in it now.

[clenz]

Coaches can get fired for cause, sure (if they get into legal trouble or get caught violating NCAA rules).
if they get fired due to lack of success (without the aforementioned causes), then the school would have to buy out the contract and pay the coach as per the terms of the contract.

Whether or not players can keep their scholarship if they don't "pan out" depends on if the scholarship is multi-year or single-year. would it not?Players con 100% be "fired"

Players get scholarships taken all the time. Coaches tell players they are no longer in their plans and if they want to play they would be best looking elsewhere. It's why many transfer.

That's been happening for years in large numbers.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Chalupa Batman]

Players con 100% be "fired"

Players get scholarships taken all the time. Coaches tell players they are no longer in their plans and if they want to play they would be best looking elsewhere. It's why many transfer.

That's been happening for years in large numbers.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

If the school wants to pull a scholarship from a player and "fire" them, than that kid should be able to transfer without sitting out a year. If the player isn't happy with his/her playing time, schooling, being too far away from home, etc. and wants to transfer, than they should have to sit out a year.

If the school is the one breaking the contract, don't punish the kid by making them sit out a year. If the player is the one breaking the contract, they can sit out one year. Just my 2 cents.

[JayJ79]

You might want to check the NCAA rules on tampering.
haha. as if the big money programs actually follow the rules (and as if the NCAA bothers investigating the big money programs for rules violations)

[grayghost06]

The FBS people are trying to initiate a proposal to allow students to transfer without sitting out a year. What's to prevent the FCS people from blocking this? Something to prevent the poaching of high caliber FCS performers to transition up to FBS without sitting out a year.

[clenz]

If the school wants to pull a scholarship from a player and "fire" them, than that kid should be able to transfer without sitting out a year. If the player isn't happy with his/her playing time, schooling, being too far away from home, etc. and wants to transfer, than they should have to sit out a year.

If the school is the one breaking the contract, don't punish the kid by making them sit out a year. If the player is the one breaking the contract, they can sit out one year. Just my 2 cents.If a kid is on a one year renewable scholarship - which 99% of them are - he's under no obligation

Also athletic scholarships are the same as any other school issued scholarships. Why are athletes the only one held to this bring forced to sit out standard?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Chalupa Batman]

If a kid is on a one year renewable scholarship - which 99% of them are - he's under no obligation

Also athletic scholarships are the same as any other school issued scholarships. Why are athletes the only one held to this bring forced to sit out standard?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

The way I understand is the scholarship is renewable, but only for the school. If a kid wants to transfer they need to be released from the scholarship, they can't just up and leave. If a school wants to "fire" the kid, they don't renew the scholarship and send the player on his way.

Basically a kid is committing for 4 years but the school for 1 year with 3 options to renew, so to speak. They should be making an equal commitment to each other.....either party can opt out any year by not renewing it, or they both commit to 4 years.

My preference is the 4 year commitment to each other.....and in that scenario is where a player sits out when they want to transfer, unless the school breaks their commitment first.

[Bisonoline]

haha. as if the big money programs actually follow the rules (and as if the NCAA bothers investigating the big money programs for rules violations)

Look at the scenario provided. Nobody puts up with that.

[Redbird 4th & short]

An unfortunate consequence is that we are going to see more FCS players transferring to FBS programs if they don't have to sit out a full season. On the plus side, at least from my perspective, we'll see far less FBS to FCS transfers. A number of programs, to include JMU, ISUred, JSU and several others have built very competitive football teams by going heavily down this route - it will be interesting to see how they do when quality FBS transfers opt more for other FBS programs.
As for ISUr, what do you consider "heavily" ?

Offensively, if you look at our 2019 All Purpose Yards over 100, which is our Top 13 .. only 1 is FBS transfer, which was our starting QB Davis .. though he was injured late in regular season, and we made our playoff run without him. We also had 2 OL transfers from Illinois .. one 2 years ago, one last year, but we lost 1 of those to injury early in season. So just 2 FBS transfers who started/contributed in regular season, and just 1 who started in playoffs, the OL. And none who contributed at RB, WR, or TE.

Defensively, if you look at our 2019 total tackles over 10, which is our top 19 .. only 3 are "true" FBS transfers: #6 is DE, #11 and #12 both LBers .. just the DE was full time starter. So just 1 FBS transfer that was full time starter, the DE McKnight.

Technically, you could also count LB Deforest as FBS transfer, except he was a preferred walkon at Wisconsin (local WI boy) who had no scholarship and we had recruited him hard out of HS. He saw writing on wall early and transfered after his RS FR season .. so I don't consider him a true "FBS transfer".

So 3 full time starters for most of season, and just 2 full time starters for playoffs .. 1 OL and 1 DE. And the 2 LBers from our 2 deep rotation. Then this offseason, we picked up just 1 FBS transfer at LB because we are losing 4 of our top 7 LBers to graduation, including 1 of the FBS transfers.

So yes, we dabble and plug holes with FBS transfers, but I don't view that as "heavily".

Note, you may have gotten the impression that ISUr is big with FBS transfers from Spack's first 3 or 4 years (2009-12) while he was trying build up his inherited roster, as well as his HS recruiting network. That was very hit or miss period, where we had an average of 13 FBS transfers on our roster over that period .... not 13 transfers per year, but 13 accumulated on average. Maybe half or less contributed to our 2 deep.

[ElCid]

As with all new rules or regs changed to deal with any issue, the impact and the unintended consequences will not truly be known until it is in force and exercised.

Loyalty to school and team seems to not be as important as it once was. I didn't look at the actual rule or nitty gritty details, but maybe additional rules will eventually be needed to rein it in if it gets out of hand. They may already be in place, I don't know. But protection against abuse could be something like limits or penalties in scholarships for the downstream schools if the transferee jumps again. That will take the incentive out for receiving schools unless it is seriously appropriate for the school, team, and transferee. This will prevent teams just stocking up on player depth or shopping to fill holes. Players may decide to simply state their desire to transfer hoping to get picked up by some school on a known shopping binge. Again, the unintended consequences may surprise some people. But nobody knows for sure what these unintended consequences will actually be yet.

In any event, it will just hurt us and not help at all. Not too many upperclassmen want to be a knob their Jr year.

[clenz]

The way I understand is the scholarship is renewable, but only for the school. If a kid wants to transfer they need to be released from the scholarship, they can't just up and leave. If a school wants to "fire" the kid, they don't renew the scholarship and send the player on his way.

Basically a kid is committing for 4 years but the school for 1 year with 3 options to renew, so to speak. They should be making an equal commitment to each other.....either party can opt out any year by not renewing it, or they both commit to 4 years.

My preference is the 4 year commitment to each other.....and in that scenario is where a player sits out when they want to transfer, unless the school breaks their commitment first.
A player decides to not "renew" by leaving the school. You're making this much more complicated than it is.

An athletic scholarship, in terms of them being enrolled in school and having it, is no different than an academic or other type of school issued scholarship. All of which need to be "accepted" yearly. If a kid decides to leave the program/school he is opting to not renew it. They are nothing other than 1 year financial aid packages.

The school/academic department determines if a kid meets criteria for a scholarship and the kid has the ability to accept or reject said scholarship.

The school/athletic department determines if a kid meets criteria for a scholarship and the kid has the ability to accept or reject said scholarship.

This whole "release from scholarship" is only an issue because the schools/coaches/athletic departments have decided they need to have all the power over a student athlete. Someone on a full scholarship from the computer science department doesn't need to be released to transfer to another school. They don't have to sit out of anything for a year if they accept a scholarship. They don't have the rule that you can play right away as long as you walk on (which is a rule for football but no one does it because who would be dumb enough to pay 20k to when you have the option to be there for free).

Want to know something else? This rule only applies to like 5 sports - football, wrestling, mbb, wbb and maybe volleyball. There are more sports that these rules don't apply too than they do? Why? The schools "make money" from those sports. The schools/NCAA don't give a single **** if a golfer or tennis player transfers. Why? ****ing no one, in any real numbers, cares. They don't make money for the schools/NCAA.

You can transfer FBS to FCS and not sit out
You can transfer to D2 and not sit out
You can transfer from D2 to D2 and not sit out
NAIA doesn't require them.

This all exists because the NCAA, and programs for the longest time, had all the power. They knew they had to "keep their assets" and keep them from going to a rival. It's why no one gave a **** if you want FBS to FCS. You aren't a "threat" to them going FCS. However, people are starting to realize how dumb that is. Much like the players unions in the pros getting smarter and going "Uh, give us the power because you don't exist without us" the college athletes are starting to realize the same. Now the big guys realize "Oh...we don't need to protect our "assets" as much because we can get better/make more money if we let our lower assets go and take other top end assets from others."

Kids transfer all the ****ing time, I don't know why it's such an issue for someone playing a sport to transfer. Kids get to a school and realize recruiting to a program/school is only showing the best parts of the school. They realize it's not a fit and they go somewhere that is a fit. Why is it so horrible for someone to go "Oh, these coaches aren't who they sold themselves to be" and find somewhere they want to be? Why is it so bad for a kid to go "These 100 other kids I'm forced to be around because I share a team don't mesh with who I am as a person. I want to find a team I fit". They don't know these things until they get there.

Big ****ing deal.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The FBS people are trying to initiate a proposal to allow students to transfer without sitting out a year. What's to prevent the FCS people from blocking this? Something to prevent the poaching of high caliber FCS performers to transition up to FBS without sitting out a year.

In theory they could. In practice the P5 has altered the process so that they can essentially set their own rules.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As with all new rules or regs changed to deal with any issue, the impact and the unintended consequences will not truly be known until it is in force and exercised.

Here's what I do know: Not one brain neuron has been spent by the Big 10 or the NCAA thinking about the consequences of this action on G5 and FCS schools. They are thinking of their own selfish self-interests and not about Division I college football as a whole. When the Big 10 made the decision to force their membership to not play FCS schools, the short-term impacts and long-term impacts were depressingly predictable, as was the aftermath - five years or so later, they quietly abandoned this stupid, self-defeating idea. I have zero faith that the Big 10 has thought any further ahead than the fact that they can use this to raid the G5 and FCS of talent.

[Sycamore62]

So to summarize the recent proposed and implemented changes, the stance of most people here is that we prefer our young physically talented people to A) work for free and B) not be able to go somewhere else.

reminds me of something else we used to have

[Derby City Duke]

An unfortunate consequence is that we are going to see more FCS players transferring to FBS programs if they don't have to sit out a full season. On the plus side, at least from my perspective, we'll see far less FBS to FCS transfers. A number of programs, to include JMU, ISUred, JSU and several others have built very competitive football teams by going heavily down this route - it will be interesting to see how they do when quality FBS transfers opt more for other FBS programs.

I think we had 6 out of 80+ players this year who were transfers -- not sure that qualifies as 'going heavily down this route'...


Update: Currently there are 6 FBS transfers on the JMU roster, out of 101 on the roster. This 101 includes the 2020 kids that enrolled early.

[Bisonoline]

A player decides to not "renew" by leaving the school. You're making this much more complicated than it is.

An athletic scholarship, in terms of them being enrolled in school and having it, is no different than an academic or other type of school issued scholarship. All of which need to be "accepted" yearly. If a kid decides to leave the program/school he is opting to not renew it. They are nothing other than 1 year financial aid packages.

The school/academic department determines if a kid meets criteria for a scholarship and the kid has the ability to accept or reject said scholarship.

The school/athletic department determines if a kid meets criteria for a scholarship and the kid has the ability to accept or reject said scholarship.

This whole "release from scholarship" is only an issue because the schools/coaches/athletic departments have decided they need to have all the power over a student athlete. Someone on a full scholarship from the computer science department doesn't need to be released to transfer to another school. They don't have to sit out of anything for a year if they accept a scholarship. They don't have the rule that you can play right away as long as you walk on (which is a rule for football but no one does it because who would be dumb enough to pay 20k to when you have the option to be there for free).

Want to know something else? This rule only applies to like 5 sports - football, wrestling, mbb, wbb and maybe volleyball. There are more sports that these rules don't apply too than they do? Why? The schools "make money" from those sports. The schools/NCAA don't give a single **** if a golfer or tennis player transfers. Why? ****ing no one, in any real numbers, cares. They don't make money for the schools/NCAA.

You can transfer FBS to FCS and not sit out
You can transfer to D2 and not sit out
You can transfer from D2 to D2 and not sit out
NAIA doesn't require them.

This all exists because the NCAA, and programs for the longest time, had all the power. They knew they had to "keep their assets" and keep them from going to a rival. It's why no one gave a **** if you want FBS to FCS. You aren't a "threat" to them going FCS. However, people are starting to realize how dumb that is. Much like the players unions in the pros getting smarter and going "Uh, give us the power because you don't exist without us" the college athletes are starting to realize the same. Now the big guys realize "Oh...we don't need to protect our "assets" as much because we can get better/make more money if we let our lower assets go and take other top end assets from others."

Kids transfer all the ****ing time, I don't know why it's such an issue for someone playing a sport to transfer. Kids get to a school and realize recruiting to a program/school is only showing the best parts of the school. They realize it's not a fit and they go somewhere that is a fit. Why is it so horrible for someone to go "Oh, these coaches aren't who they sold themselves to be" and find somewhere they want to be? Why is it so bad for a kid to go "These 100 other kids I'm forced to be around because I share a team don't mesh with who I am as a person. I want to find a team I fit". They don't know these things until they get there.

Big ****ing deal.


You hit all the bases. Nicely done.

[JayJ79]

So to summarize the recent proposed and implemented changes, the stance of most people here is that we prefer our young physically talented people to A) work for free and B) not be able to go somewhere else.

reminds me of something else we used to have

considering the cost of attending college for a year is often more than many people make in a year of work, and full-ride scholarship athletes don't have to pay that, I'm not understanding how that is "working for free"

[Bisonoline]

considering the cost of attending college for a year is often more than many people make in a year of work, and full-ride scholarship athletes don't have to pay that, I'm not understanding how that is "working for free"

Back to the circular arguments.

[Redbird 4th & short]

considering the cost of attending college for a year is often more than many people make in a year of work, and full-ride scholarship athletes don't have to pay that, I'm not understanding how that is "working for free"

I'm with you .. want to change the group think on that idea. Start by telling all the scholarship athletes that the first step towards getting "paid" for "work", is to start paying income taxes on all their scholarship money. Then see how many athletes, 98% of which will never play pro football, feel about getting "paid" like employees. It's college .. get an education, almost all of you will need it to get a decent paying job. The good news being, you have a degree, you got all that money tax free, and now you aren't straddled with student debt like most everyone else you went to school with.

[ElCid]

I'm with you .. want to change the group think on that idea. Start by telling all the scholarship athletes that the first step towards getting "paid" for "work", is to start paying income taxes on all their scholarship money. Then see how many athletes, 98% of which will never play pro football, feel about getting "paid" like employees. It's college .. get an education, almost all of you will need it to get a decent paying job. The good news being, you have a degree, you got all that money tax free, and now you aren't straddled with student debt like most everyone else you went to school with.

This. I am tired of the "they are not getting properly compensated position." It's nothing but spin. A college education is a HUGE payment. Deal with it.

[cx500d]

considering the cost of attending college for a year is often more than many people make in a year of work, and full-ride scholarship athletes don't have to pay that, I'm not understanding how that is "working for free"

I agree


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I agree as well.

[cx500d]

This. I am tired of the "they are not getting properly compensated position." It's nothing but spin. A college education is a HUGE payment. Deal with it.

They are getting off easy... ROTC or academy grads generally owe 8 years of service AFTER graduation in return for the scholarship. These athletes get more or less the same scholarship, but don't owe any kind of service to whomever funded their scholarship AFTER they leave school or graduate.

[ElCid]

They are getting off easy... ROTC or academy grads generally owe 8 years of service AFTER graduation in return for the scholarship. These athletes get more or less the same scholarship, but don't owe any kind of service to whomever funded their scholarship AFTER they leave school or graduate.

Yeah, I get it, but it isn't an exact apples to apples comparison. Scholarship athletes are at school, for free, and play...perform as a requirement. ROTC, including yours truly, was at school, for free, at least the last two years, paid by the government. No performance needed by me other than good grades, some PT, some marching, some training....but I had a required payback, 7 years of service in my case, but I obviously got paid during those 7 years. But you are right, I still owed that time. In concept, in regard to school, it results in the same outcome, a free, or partially free degree. And that is nothing to sneeze at.

[Redbird 4th & short]

Note, the average salary for an XFL player is 55,000 before taxes .. so figure about 40,000 after taxes. Most colleges cost between 30-50k per year. Not bad for an 18 year old with a HS degree.

[Bisonoline]

Note, the average salary for an XFL player is 55,000 before taxes .. so figure about 40,000 after taxes. Most colleges cost between 30-50k per year. Not bad for an 18 year old with a HS degree.


Dont forget bonus money for wins.

30-50k a year???

https://www.ndsu.edu/onestop/accounts/tuition/undergraduate/


(https://www.ndsu.edu/onestop/accounts/tuition/undergraduate/)

[Bisonoline]

Dont forget bonus money for wins.

30-50k a year???

https://www.ndsu.edu/onestop/accounts/tuition/undergraduate/


(https://www.ndsu.edu/onestop/accounts/tuition/undergraduate/)

I will also add that the scholarship isnt free considering all of the hours one puts in. If you want to count hours athletes arent even paid minimum wage. If you want to go down this road then you had better be prepared to see OSHA brought in and start paying workmans comp and provide long term disability payments.

To outsiders an athletic scholarship is the end all. As with most things its only easy if you dont have to do it yourself.

[uni88]

Dont forget bonus money for wins.

30-50k a year???

https://www.ndsu.edu/onestop/accounts/tuition/undergraduate/
(https://www.ndsu.edu/onestop/accounts/tuition/undergraduate/)

North Dakota is 49th out of 50 states & DC in average public school tuition - https://www.move.org/college-tuition-costs-by-state/

Room & Board costs are going to vary by location. Fargo is probably pretty inexpensive compared to a school with an urban campus.

Private schools are going to be significantly higher. Tuition, room/board and expenses at Ivy, Patriot and similar schools will probably be about $70k. A $30-50K per year range is reasonable.

[ElCid]

North Dakota is 49th out of 51 states & DC in average public school tuition - https://www.move.org/college-tuition-costs-by-state/

Room & Board costs are going to vary by location. Fargo is probably pretty inexpensive compared to an school with an urban campus.

Private schools are going to be significantly higher. Tuition, room/board and expenses at Ivy, Patriot and similar schools will probably be about $70k. A $30-50K per year range is reasonable.

Total cost at The Citadel this year for everything, for a freshman, for "out of state" is 53,300. Which is ridiculous for a state school, even for out of state. "In state" freshman total cost is about 30K. And we lived in no frills barracks. LOL. Whimps got central air now.

[Ivytalk]

All for it. Let the free market of athletic talent sort it out. I’m thinking there will be less opportunity for “upward mobility” than many expect.

[JayJ79]

I'm with you .. want to change the group think on that idea. Start by telling all the scholarship athletes that the first step towards getting "paid" for "work", is to start paying income taxes on all their scholarship money. Then see how many athletes, 98% of which will never play pro football, feel about getting "paid" like employees. It's college .. get an education, almost all of you will need it to get a decent paying job. The good news being, you have a degree, you got all that money tax free, and now you aren't straddled with student debt like most everyone else you went to school with.
Isn't money spent on tuition/education often considered deductible when it comes to taxes?
I'm not accountant and it has been a while since I paid educational costs, though, so I could be wrong.

[Sycamore62]

That degree is becoming less and less valuable. most of it you could get for half the effort watching youtube videos.

[clenz]

That degree is becoming less and less valuable. most of it you could get for half the effort watching youtube videos.
Also not untrue.

There are kids that don't have drivers licence yet that can outcode people who have degrees and been in the field for decades because it's so easily learned now.

[Redbird 4th & short]

Dont forget bonus money for wins.

30-50k a year???

https://www.ndsu.edu/onestop/accounts/tuition/undergraduate/


(https://www.ndsu.edu/onestop/accounts/tuition/undergraduate/)

Wow, can't believe how cheap NDSU is ... ISUr is about 15k for in-state tuition & fees, then another 10k for room & board .. so 25k in-state. I assume out-of-state is probably at least 35k.

But I was more talking about FBS .. here is Big 10: Undergrad In-State and Out-of-State .. and also Graduate for same splits. Note, these numbers are just Tuition & Fees .. so add at least another 10k for room & board to all numbers below. Going to assum most FBS schools, at least the ones with any ability to actually "pay" their athletes for "work", have a fair number of out-of-state athletes.

By the way, if we're going to "pay" these student-athletes for their "work" ... what does the 5th best player on the Men's Tennis team get compared to the best player on Men's Tennis team ? How about the best player on Men's Tennis vs the best player on Women's Tennis ?? Or the best Women's Tennis player compared to the 3rd string QB on football team.

Uh oh .. it all starts to unravel then ? I mean come on, they all work hard and put it a lot of time .. right ??



UNDERGRADUATE RESIDENT
UNDERGRADUATE NON-RESIDENT
GRADUATE RESIDENT
GRADUATE NON-RESIDENT


UNIVERSITY
AMOUNT
RANK
AMOUNT
RANK
AMOUNT
RANK
AMOUNT
RANK


PENNSYLVANIA STATE UNIVERSITY
$18,454
1
$34,858
6
$22,578
2
$38,012
3


UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS
$16,004
2
$32,574
7
$16,910
7
$31,634
7


UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN
$15,262
3
$49,350
1
$23,456
1
$47,006
1


RUTGERS UNIVERSITY
$14,974
4
$31,282
8
$19,416
3
$31,488
8


UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA
$14,693
5
$30,371
11
$18,583
5
$27,931
11


MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY
$14,460
6
$39,765
2
$18,132
6
$35,628
4


UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN–MADISON
$10,556
10
$36,805
3
$12,010
9
$25,336
12


INDIANA UNIVERSITY
$10,680
8
$35,455
4
$10,563
11
$33,271
6


UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND
$10,595
9
$35,216
5
$18,828
4
$38,772
2


THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY
$10,726
7
$30,742
10
$12,425
8
$34,929
5


PURDUE UNIVERSITY
$9,992
11
$28,794
12
$9,992
12
$28,794
10


UNIVERSITY OF IOWA
$9,267
12
$31,233
9
$11,336
10
$30,277
9


UNIVERSITY OF NEBRASKA
$9,154
13
$24,949
13
$9,458
13
$23,906
13

[Redbird 4th & short]

Isn't money spent on tuition/education often considered deductible when it comes to taxes?
I'm not accountant and it has been a while since I paid educational costs, though, so I could be wrong.

Their ability to deduct tuition & fees depends on the year, as the rules have been changing and currently in 2019 (filing due 4.15.20), the answer is no. In prior years, it was deductible up to $4,000 of your AGI, but not if your AGI exceeds 80k individually, or 160k jointly. Obviously, it might historically have made sense for the 18+ year old college athlete on scholarship to file themselves, instead of as dependent on their parents .. but no longer in 2019 .. none of it is deductible any more.

Not sure what they allowed in 2018, that year was up in air, and I'm not sure what they decided. But in 2017, it was capped at 4,000 deduction annually.

p.s. full disclaimer, I'm not a tax accountant, just a parent with a math degree, 4 kids, and turbotax product.


edit: just confirmed, tuition was also not deductible at all in 2018 .. there was talk of extending the 2017 tax law (deduct up to 4,000), but it did not get approved.

[KPSUL]

Maybe so, but there were other FBS transfers that certainly contributed in a big way after 2012. I vaguely remember a pretty good QB on your 2014 team, as well as several O and D lineman. This isn't a sin, it's not cheating to bring in transfers consistent with the rules. My only point was that it will be interesting to see how the handful of teams who have been most successful with FBS transfers will fair under the new rules. Obviously some will adjust, but IMHO others will not. It may be wishful thinking on my part since UNH makes no effort what-so-ever to actively recruit from FBS.

[NDSU1980]

Wow, can't believe how cheap NDSU is ... ISUr is about 15k for in-state tuition & fees, then another 10k for room & board .. so 25k in-state. I assume out-of-state is probably at least 35k.

But I was more talking about FBS .. here is Big 10: Undergrad In-State and Out-of-State .. and also Graduate for same splits. Note, these numbers are just Tuition & Fees .. so add at least another 10k for room & board to all numbers below. Going to assum most FBS schools, at least the ones with any ability to actually "pay" their athletes for "work", have a fair number of out-of-state athletes.

By the way, if we're going to "pay" these student-athletes for their "work" ... what does the 5th best player on the Men's Tennis team get compared to the best player on Men's Tennis team ? How about the best player on Men's Tennis vs the best player on Women's Tennis ?? Or the best Women's Tennis player compared to the 3rd string QB on football team.

Uh oh .. it all starts to unravel then ? I mean come on, they all work hard and put it a lot of time .. right ??



UNDERGRADUATE RESIDENT
UNDERGRADUATE NON-RESIDENT
GRADUATE RESIDENT
GRADUATE NON-RESIDENT


UNIVERSITY
AMOUNT
RANK
AMOUNT
RANK
AMOUNT
RANK
AMOUNT
RANK


PENNSYLVANIA STATE UNIVERSITY
$18,454
1
$34,858
6
$22,578
2
$38,012
3


UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS
$16,004
2
$32,574
7
$16,910
7
$31,634
7


UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN
$15,262
3
$49,350
1
$23,456
1
$47,006
1


RUTGERS UNIVERSITY
$14,974
4
$31,282
8
$19,416
3
$31,488
8


UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA
$14,693
5
$30,371
11
$18,583
5
$27,931
11


MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY
$14,460
6
$39,765
2
$18,132
6
$35,628
4


UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN–MADISON
$10,556
10
$36,805
3
$12,010
9
$25,336
12


INDIANA UNIVERSITY
$10,680
8
$35,455
4
$10,563
11
$33,271
6


UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND
$10,595
9
$35,216
5
$18,828
4
$38,772
2


THE OHIO STATE UNIVERSITY
$10,726
7
$30,742
10
$12,425
8
$34,929
5


PURDUE UNIVERSITY
$9,992
11
$28,794
12
$9,992
12
$28,794
10


UNIVERSITY OF IOWA
$9,267
12
$31,233
9
$11,336
10
$30,277
9


UNIVERSITY OF NEBRASKA
$9,154
13
$24,949
13
$9,458
13
$23,906
13





Actually I consider that price for NDSU now to be rather high. When I went (76-80) it was far cheaper. My finally year, for tuition AND room and board at the high rise dorm was around $1800 for the entire year. Now that was dirt cheap.

[ST_Lawson]

Actually I consider that price for NDSU now to be rather high. When I went (76-80) it was far cheaper. My finally year, for tuition AND room and board at the high rise dorm was around $1800 for the entire year. Now that was dirt cheap.

Just for reference, $1,800 in August 1980 is the equivalent of $5,544 in August 2019. Obviously that's not all of the increase, but you do have to take that into account.

You have to consider how much less many state schools are being funded by their states. I don't know about NDSU, but I know that for WIU, we get about half (inflation-adjusted $) what we got 20 years ago. When you're getting less money from the state, you have to do something to make ends meet, and often that involves increasing tuition.

There's also many things that are essentially "expected" nowadays that were not 20, 30, or 40 years ago. Campus-wide wifi, computer labs, and online learning options (and all the people to set up and manage those things)...and that's just a few examples from just the tech side of things.

[Redbird 4th & short]

Maybe so, but there were other FBS transfers that certainly contributed in a big way after 2012. I vaguely remember a pretty good QB on your 2014 team, as well as several O and D lineman. This isn't a sin, it's not cheating to bring in transfers consistent with the rules. My only point was that it will be interesting to see how the handful of teams who have been most successful with FBS transfers will fair under the new rules. Obviously some will adjust, but IMHO others will not. It may be wishful thinking on my part since UNH makes no effort what-so-ever to actively recruit from FBS.
No disagreement there .... Spack is willing to plug holes with a couple FBS transfers, just not heavily. And yes, this new rule will impact his ability to get the better ones. But the ones who just want a shot to get on the field more, he still has a shot at when he needs to plug a hole .. starter or 2 deep.

- - - Updated - - -


Maybe so, but there were other FBS transfers that certainly contributed in a big way after 2012. I vaguely remember a pretty good QB on your 2014 team, as well as several O and D lineman. This isn't a sin, it's not cheating to bring in transfers consistent with the rules. My only point was that it will be interesting to see how the handful of teams who have been most successful with FBS transfers will fair under the new rules. Obviously some will adjust, but IMHO others will not. It may be wishful thinking on my part since UNH makes no effort what-so-ever to actively recruit from FBS.
No disagreement there .... Spack is willing to plug holes with a couple FBS transfers, just not heavily. And yes, this new rule will impact his ability to get the better ones. But the ones who just want a shot to get on the field more, he still has a shot at when he needs to plug a hole .. starter or 2 deep.

[Sycamore62]

By the way, if we're going to "pay" these student-athletes for their "work" ... what does the 5th best player on the Men's Tennis team get compared to the best player on Men's Tennis team ? How about the best player on Men's Tennis vs the best player on Women's Tennis ?? Or the best Women's Tennis player compared to the 3rd string QB on football team.

Uh oh .. it all starts to unravel then ? I mean come on, they all work hard and put it a lot of time .. right ??

It doesn't have to unravel. How much does a janitor get paid compared to an electrician. maybe some players would only get a scholarship.

[FormerPokeCenter]

It doesn't have to unravel. How much does a janitor get paid compared to an electrician. maybe some players would only get a scholarship.


So performance based pay, eh? Isn't that what got SMU the Death Penalty?

[Sycamore62]

So performance based pay, eh? Isn't that what got SMU the Death Penalty?

yep. It would probably be more along the lines of potential based play though.

[Redbird 4th & short]

It doesn't have to unravel. How much does a janitor get paid compared to an electrician. maybe some players would only get a scholarship.
I have no doubt it unravels if they go down this path of thinking student-athletes deserve to be treated like Employees deserving of pay. Presumably, most players would only be deserving of the full schollie equivalent, to which I ask the same question ... do they have to increase their schollie, so they can afford to pay the income taxes. Since 2018, Tuition is no longer deductible - prior to 2018, only a max of 4,000 was deductible. Room & Board was never deductible. So if their schollie was wirth 25,000 .. how much do they have to pay them pre-tax to make them whole post-tax.

Then get into the whole thing related to various sports & revenues ... rowing team which has virtually no fans/gate vs football team who draws 60,000 per game. And then the 3rd rail .. males vs females for same work. Start with basketball ... how much do you pay women vs men? Say women's bball draws 2,000 per game and men's draws 20,000 per game. Do women get equal pay for equal work ? Then get into pay for performance, does it possbly increase or decrease in year 2 based on individual performance ? The whole pressure cooker aspect of college sports, as it exists today, would just go thru the roof. It would ruin college sports IMO.

To say nothing of where the money comes from, and how the richest programs with the richest donors would just dominate recruiting wars. I just dont see how it could work .. nor why it wouldn't ruin college sports.

Giving all these 18 year old HS grads full schollies with zero income tax and the potential for a degree with no debt .. of which maybe 1 or 2 % will have a future in professional sports, the rest have to get regular jobs ... that is more than enough financial consideration for at least 95% of them.

[ST_Lawson]

And then the 3rd rail .. males vs females for same work. Start with basketball ... how much do you pay women vs men? Say women's bball draws 2,000 per game and men's draws 20,000 per game. Do women get equal pay for equal work ?

We just skip all that nonsense at Western. Our women outdraw (slightly) our men's team, and the men's HC makes the same $ as the women's HC.
I get your point though, we are the exception.

[Sycamore62]

I have no doubt it unravels if they go down this path of thinking student-athletes deserve to be treated like Employees deserving of pay. Presumably, most players would only be deserving of the full schollie equivalent, to which I ask the same question ... do they have to increase their schollie, so they can afford to pay the income taxes. Since 2018, Tuition is no longer deductible - prior to 2018, only a max of 4,000 was deductible. Room & Board was never deductible. So if their schollie was wirth 25,000 .. how much do they have to pay them pre-tax to make them whole post-tax.

Then get into the whole thing related to various sports & revenues ... rowing team which has virtually no fans/gate vs football team who draws 60,000 per game. And then the 3rd rail .. males vs females for same work. Start with basketball ... how much do you pay women vs men? Say women's bball draws 2,000 per game and men's draws 20,000 per game. Do women get equal pay for equal work ? Then get into pay for performance, does it possbly increase or decrease in year 2 based on individual performance ? The whole pressure cooker aspect of college sports, as it exists today, would just go thru the roof. It would ruin college sports IMO.

To say nothing of where the money comes from, and how the richest programs with the richest donors would just dominate recruiting wars. I just dont see how it could work .. nor why it wouldn't ruin college sports.

Giving all these 18 year old HS grads full schollies with zero income tax and the potential for a degree with no debt .. of which maybe 1 or 2 % will have a future in professional sports, the rest have to get regular jobs ... that is more than enough financial consideration for at least 95% of them.

I have never seen someone so wrapped up in how much in taxes someone would have to pay for a scholarship. If they get a sociology degree can they write off its immediate 100% depreciation?

[Bisonoline]

This whole thread is extremely over thought. wow

[ElCid]

I have never seen someone so wrapped up in how much in taxes someone would have to pay for a scholarship. If they get a sociology degree can they write off its immediate 100% depreciation?

And that, is seriously funny.

[Redbird 4th & short]

I have never seen someone so wrapped up in how much in taxes someone would have to pay for a scholarship. If they get a sociology degree can they write off its immediate 100% depreciation?
I'm not just wrapped up in taxes .. that is just to make an obvious point that very few seem to think matter .. income is taxed.

And I made many other points related to how much people get paid for performance. And what it would do with recruiting wars as it stands today ... which don't start at 18 years old. For many, it starts when they are 16 and 17 years old and younger. Imagine the Alabamas of the football world and Kentucky's of the basketball world .. and what they could promise a 16 year old kid.

But my main concern is they are 18 year old student-athletes and younger when they are being recruited. That and how much this would ruin college sports. Those are my main concerns, not income taxes.

[Sycamore62]

I'm not just wrapped up in taxes .. that is just to make an obvious point that very few seem to think matter .. income is taxed.

And I made many other points related to how much people get paid for performance. And what it would do with recruiting wars as it stands today ... which don't start at 18 years old. For many, it starts when they are 16 and 17 years old and younger. Imagine the Alabamas of the football world and Kentucky's of the basketball world .. and what they could promise a 16 year old kid.

But my main concern is they are 18 year old student-athletes and younger when they are being recruited. That and how much this would ruin college sports. Those are my main concerns, not income taxes.

But we only worry about it when it is about athletes? why not gas stations or fast food restaurants? It might ruin college sports but it still wont change the fact that big money has always influenced college sports. so far its only been EVERYONE but the players. nobody else is unpaid. a good portion of the athletes would have qualified for free tuition anyway.

[Redbird 4th & short]

But we only worry about it when it is about athletes? why not gas stations or fast food restaurants? It might ruin college sports but it still wont change the fact that big money has always influenced college sports. so far its only been EVERYONE but the players. nobody else is unpaid. a good portion of the athletes would have qualified for free tuition anyway.
I have no idea why you bring up gas stations or fast food restaurants .. those are jobs, not scholarship sports. We're talking about whether 20-40k of untaxed scholarship is adequate financial incentive for college athletes. I would argue it is more than adequate
income" for a HS recruit and 95% of D-I college athletes.

[clenz]

What does taxing a scholarship have to do with athletes being able to cash in on their likeness through advertising?

[Redbird 4th & short]

What does taxing a scholarship have to do with athletes being able to cash in on their likeness through advertising?
This thread topic shifted towards notion that student athletes should be paid .. or at least it was inferred.

Though I think any potential income to student athletes would further corrupt college sports. I'd be all for not allowing anyone to use and exploit college athletes likeness if needed.

[Sycamore62]

maybe the xfl will turn into a viable minor league system and we can let people chose their career path instead of forcing them to use a government funded monopoly.

[clenz]

maybe the xfl will turn into a viable minor league system and we can let people chose their career path instead of forcing them to use a government funded monopoly.
The NCAA isn't forcing anyone to go to them.

[Redbird 4th & short]

maybe the xfl will turn into a viable minor league system and we can let people chose their career path instead of forcing them to use a government funded monopoly.
agree with first half of your statement ... but know that all those coaches and players will be mired in anonymity playing in XFL (or whatever the latest attempt is called). And in the end, the players will not have any degree and will rarely get a shot at the pro's. And in 3 years, the XFL will be likely be gone, until the next attempt in 10 years. While in 100 years, 98% of colleges will still be around and offering intercollegiate sports.

As for the "government funded monopoly" comment, agree with Clenz ... no one is forcing them to go there. And most people (not all) think college athletics is a pretty cool thing in terms of the entire campus experience for students and student-athletes alike. There are scholastic sports at all levels .. elementary, HS, and college .. so it's not like colleges are doing something unusual. And putting aside all the recent noise in college sports, it all started as a pretty innocent and cool thing. Bringing more money into the equation will only make it worse and will corrupt the student-athlete .. do you trust some big time college coach with nearly unlimited funds and his job on the line to "do right" by his players ? Many, yes .... some, no way in hell.

I'd just like to keep it like it was meant to be .. something else for students to do on campus, and alumni to support in different ways. Sports are just another college acitivity for students to be interested in and enjoy ... or not. No different than in HS and elementary schools all over the country. Not much different in that sense than many other acitivities that students can take an interest.

[uni88]

agree with first half of your statement ... but know that all those coaches and players will be mired in anonymity playing in XFL (or whatever the latest attempt is called). And in the end, the players will not have any degree and will rarely get a shot at the pro's. And in 3 years, the XFL will be likely be gone, until the next attempt in 10 years. While in 100 years, 98% of colleges will still be around and offering intercollegiate sports.

As for the "government funded monopoly" comment, agree with Clenz ... no one is forcing them to go there. And most people (not all) think college athletics is a pretty cool thing in terms of the entire campus experience for students and student-athletes alike. There are scholastic sports at all levels .. elementary, HS, and college .. so it's not like colleges are doing something unusual. And putting aside all the recent noise in college sports, it all started as a pretty innocent and cool thing. Bringing more money into the equation will only make it worse and will corrupt the student-athlete .. do you trust some big time college coach with nearly unlimited funds and his job on the line to "do right" by his players ? Many, yes .... some, no way in hell.

I'd just like to keep it like it was meant to be .. something else for students to do on campus, and alumni to support in different ways. Sports are just another college acitivity for students to be interested in and enjoy ... or not. No different than in HS and elementary schools all over the country. Not much different in that sense than many other acitivities that students can take an interest.

It's an interesting debate with valid points on both sides. Like you and clenz say, the athletes aren't forced to go to college. If college football didn't exist and there was a minor league system, I don't think it would be nearly as glamorous to play for the Tuscaloosa Titans as it is to play for the Crimson Tide plus the bus trip to play the College Station Conquistadors would be a long one. I also don't blame the athletes for looking at all of the money that is being made and wondering why they don't get any.

[clenz]

To be clear what I meant was

It's not the NCAA forcing players to spend 3 years in college. It's not the NCAA forcing players to be 19 and spend a year in college.

It's the NFL with the rule that a player must be 3 years out of HS.
It's the NBA with the rule that players must be 19 and 1 year out of high school.

The NCAA would much prefer those rules go away as it could potentially solve a good number of issues - though obviously not all. There's still too much money to be had.

I'd like to see the NBA to the MLB rule. You can go straight out of high school, no issues. However, if you decide to go to college you are there for 3 years. For basketball that might be too much to ask, so maybe 2 would be a good mid point.

Football is tougher due to the physical difference in a 18 year old out of HS and a 27 year old who has gone through 4 years of college and been in the NFL weight system.

I suppose you can say that high school kids doing basketball have the option to get paid right away as the G league and Europe exist, and I don't know that the rule of being out of HS technically exists. Though, given every G League team is now being tied directly to NBA teams, ala MLB, I'd guess that isn't an option.

The G League, though, was never a great option for kids not wanting to go to college. No fan interest. Playing in meh markets, with more than a few playing in bad facilities, and making very little. It's changed recently but G Leaguers were making like 20-25k a year. I don't think it's much more than 50k at this point, unless I missed a change in the last year or so.

The draw of a power conference school for those sports is still far too much for most to pass up - along with the money/perks if we are honest.

[Redbird 4th & short]

To be clear what I meant was

It's not the NCAA forcing players to spend 3 years in college. It's not the NBA forcing players to be 19 and spend a year in college.

It's the NFL with the rule that a player must be 3 years out of HS.
It's the NBA with the rule that players must be 19 and 1 year out of high school.

The NCAA would much prefer those rules go away as it could potentially solve a good number of issues - though obviously not all. There's still too much money to be had.

I'd like to see the NBA to the MLB rule. You can go straight out of high school, no issues. However, if you decide to go to college you are there for 3 years. For basketball that might be too much to ask, so maybe 2 would be a good mid point.

Football is tougher due to the physical difference in a 18 year old out of HS and a 27 year old who has gone through 4 years of college and been in the NFL weight system.

I suppose you can say that high school kids doing basketball have the option to get paid right away as the G league and Europe exist, and I don't know that the rule of being out of HS technically exists. Though, given every G League team is now being tied directly to NBA teams, ala MLB, I'd guess that isn't an option.

The G League, though, was never a great option for kids not wanting to go to college. No fan interest. Playing in meh markets, with more than a few playing in bad facilities, and making very little. It's changed recently but G Leaguers were making like 20-25k a year. I don't think it's much more than 50k at this point, unless I missed a change in the last year or so.

The draw of a power conference school for those sports is still far too much for most to pass up - along with the money/perks if we are honest.

Well that is different but valid point ... though not quiet what your response would imply given you were responding to Sycamore's post:

https://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Sycamore62 https://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?p=2864956#post2864956)
maybe the xfl will turn into a viable minor league system and we can let people chose their career path instead of forcing them to use a government funded monopoly.



Your response: The NCAA isn't forcing anyone to go to them.

[Bisonoline]

Well that is different but valid point ... though not quiet what your response would imply given you were responding to Sycamore's post:

https://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Sycamore62 https://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (https://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?p=2864956#post2864956)
maybe the xfl will turn into a viable minor league system and we can let people chose their career path instead of forcing them to use a government funded monopoly.



Your response: The NCAA isn't forcing anyone to go to them.

Really???? This is a talking point? Most knew exactly what his reply meant.x406x

[Redbird 4th & short]

Really???? This is a talking point? Most knew exactly what his reply meant.x406x

if you say so ....

[Professor]

All for it. Let the free market of athletic talent sort it out. I’m thinking there will be less opportunity for “upward mobility” than many expect.

I am as well

[PAllen]

I will also add that the scholarship isnt free considering all of the hours one puts in. If you want to count hours athletes arent even paid minimum wage. If you want to go down this road then you had better be prepared to see OSHA brought in and start paying workmans comp and provide long term disability payments.

To outsiders an athletic scholarship is the end all. As with most things its only easy if you dont have to do it yourself.

Does that account for the free tutoring and other services other students don't have the same level of access to (in some cases meals, housing, massages, even haircuts)?

[PAllen]

Does that account for the free tutoring and other services other students don't have the same level of access to (in some cases meals, housing, massages, even haircuts)?

Plus, BS on the minimum wage comment. Try figuring out how many hours you have to work in a year to make $50+k at minimum wage.

[Redbird 4th & short]

Plus, BS on the minimum wage comment. Try figuring out how many hours you have to work in a year to make $50+k at minimum wage.

Agreed .. besides, athletes are limited to 20 hours per week in season (for 3-4 months ?), and 8 hours per week out of season (almost 9 months), except for football out of season. I realize there is additional time spent on things like travel, injury treatment, and then fall camp for football, etc.

As for Min Wage comment ... here's some quick math.

National Min Wage is 7.25 per hour, but varies by state anywhere from 7.25 to 12.00 per hour. Let's call ithe average $10 per hour and the average scholarship is worth 30,000 annual (tax free). At $10 per hour, that would infer 3,000 hours worked at $10 Avg Min Wage. I'm guessing most D-I athletes don't spend anywhere near 3,000 hours annually. Full time would be 2,000 hours.

But let's estimate the actual hours annually for these scholarship athletes:

- In season, estimate most athletes average closer to 30 hours per week in season: 20 hour max, injury treatment, and travel for half the games: 30 hours for about 16 weeks = 480, round up to 500 hours in season.

- Out of season, estimate most athletes are closer to 15 hours per week out of season: 8 hour max, injury treatment, other weight training: 15 hours per week for max of 36 weeks = 540 max, most likely less for holidays, time off, less or skipped OTAs, etc, so round down to 500 hours our of season

That's 1,000 hours per year on average at most. At 30,000 average schollie, that's $30 per hour .. tax free. At 20,000 schollie, that's still $20 per hour. Not bad at all for an 18 year old HS graduate, who has been given an opportunity to play the sport they love for 4 more years, earn a college degree tax free, and won't have a dime of debt when they leave college. Not to mention their earning potential after college.

That is plenty of pay-for-performance compensation for at least 95% of D-I athletes who got this amazing deal as an 18 year old HS graduate.

[uni88]

Agreed .. besides, athletes are limited to 20 hours per week in season (for 3-4 months ?), and 8 hours per week out of season (almost 9 months), except for football out of season. I realize there is additional time spent on things like travel, injury treatment, and then fall camp for football, etc.

As for Min Wage comment ... here's some quick math.

National Min Wage is 7.25 per hour, but varies by state anywhere from 7.25 to 12.00 per hour. Let's call ithe average $10 per hour and the average scholarship is worth 30,000 annual (tax free). At $10 per hour, that would infer 3,000 hours worked at $10 Avg Min Wage. I'm guessing most D-I athletes don't spend anywhere near 3,000 hours annually. Full time would be 2,000 hours.

But let's estimate the actual hours annually for these scholarship athletes:

- In season, estimate most athletes average closer to 30 hours per week in season: 20 hour max, injury treatment, and travel for half the games: 30 hours for about 16 weeks = 480, round up to 500 hours in season.

- Out of season, estimate most athletes are closer to 15 hours per week out of season: 8 hour max, injury treatment, other weight training: 15 hours per week for max of 36 weeks = 540 max, most likely less for holidays, time off, less or skipped OTAs, etc, so round down to 500 hours our of season

That's 1,000 hours per year on average at most. At 30,000 average schollie, that's $30 per hour .. tax free. At 20,000 schollie, that's still $20 per hour. Not bad at all for an 18 year old HS graduate, who has been given an opportunity to play the sport they love for 4 more years, earn a college degree tax free, and won't have a dime of debt when they leave college. Not to mention their earning potential after college.

That is plenty of pay-for-performance compensation for at least 95% of D-I athletes who got this amazing deal as an 18 year old HS graduate.

To be fair, school cost a lot less and I don't think there were as many restrictions on practice time when Oline was playing. Plus you're crazy if you think schools and players aren't trying to find ways around the time restrictions.

I know when I was in school I don't think Oline's minimum wage comment would have been off base.

[PAllen]

To be fair, school cost a lot less and I don't think there were as many restrictions on practice time when Oline was playing. Plus you're crazy if you think schools and players aren't trying to find ways around the time restrictions.

I know when I was in school I don't think Oline's minimum wage comment would have been off base.

They may be finding ways around the restrictions, but even if you go overboard and count everything even close to football related a "work" activity, they aren't putting in 60-80 hour weeks on just that stuff every week of the year.

[clenz]

To be fair, school cost a lot less and I don't think there were as many restrictions on practice time when Oline was playing. Plus you're crazy if you think schools and players aren't trying to find ways around the time restrictions.

I know when I was in school I don't think Oline's minimum wage comment would have been off base.
I played D3 14 years ago

Time restrictions don't exist beyond words on paper to make it look like restrictions are in place.

When I was playing football activities started at 2pm and went until the end of practice at 6:30. You got a half hour to shower and get to the cafeteria to eat before it closed. You then had to be at study session by 7:15 which went until 8:45. Then depending who you were you had more film after

Plus twice a week during the week lifting at 6am before class and then Sunday weights/conditioning.

I'd bet we spent close to 35-40 hours a week doing "football related activities" even if they don't fall under "official" activities listed.

[Redbird 4th & short]

To be fair, school cost a lot less and I don't think there were as many restrictions on practice time when Oline was playing. Plus you're crazy if you think schools and players aren't trying to find ways around the time restrictions.

I know when I was in school I don't think Oline's minimum wage comment would have been off base.
So I am mainly refering to FBS/P5 conferences where this would mostly likely come into play in terms of the budget to potentially pay student-athletes. Obviously as we move down to G5/FCS, D-II, etc . the budgets and donors that could have the means to do so would diminish increasingly as you move down.

Here is a website which tallies the scholarship averages: http://www.scholarshipstats.com/average-per-athlete.html

Here are the top 25 avg scholarships by school:




Highest Average Athletic



Average Athletic Scholarship *


Rank

Scholarship 2018-19:
City
State
Division
Total
Men
Women


1

University of Miami (http://hurricanesports.com/)
Coral Gables
FL
NCAA I
47,347
52,641
42,053


2

Southern Methodist University (http://smumustangs.com/)
Dallas
TX
NCAA I
46,509
48,360
44,657


3

Vanderbilt University (http://www.vucommodores.com/)
Nashville
TN
NCAA I
44,496
48,383
40,609


4

Wake Forest University (http://www.wakeforestsports.com/)
Winston-Salem
NC
NCAA I
44,068
43,456
44,680


5

Tulane University (https://tulanegreenwave.com/)
New Orleans
LA
NCAA I
41,698
41,132
42,264


6

Northwestern University (http://www.nusports.com/)
Evanston
IL
NCAA I
40,547
43,943
37,151


7

Texas Christian University (http://www.gofrogs.com/)
Fort Worth
TX
NCAA I
39,367
44,270
34,464


8

Rice University (http://www.riceowls.com/)
Houston
TX
NCAA I
38,517
39,578
37,456


9

University of Tulsa (http://tulsahurricane.com/)
Tulsa
OK
NCAA I
35,315
38,100
32,531


10

University of Denver (http://www.denverpioneers.com/)
Denver
CO
NCAA I
35,029
29,905
40,153


11

Duke University (http://www.goduke.com/)
Durham
NC
NCAA I
34,631
32,606
36,656


12

Auburn University (http://www.auburntigers.com/)
Auburn
AL
NCAA I
34,630
36,014
33,245


13

University of San Francisco (http://www.usfdons.com/)
San Francisco
CA
NCAA I
34,044
27,929
40,158


14

Baylor University (http://www.baylorbears.com/)
Waco
TX
NCAA I
33,230
40,645
25,816


15

University of Notre Dame (http://www.und.com/)
Notre Dame
IN
NCAA I
33,113
33,424
32,802


16

Northeastern University (http://www.gonu.com/)
Boston
MA
NCAA I
32,516
30,766
34,267


17

Syracuse University (http://www.cuse.com/)
Syracuse
NY
NCAA I
32,356
29,216
35,497


18

Louisiana State University (http://www.lsusports.net/)
Baton Rouge
LA
NCAA I
32,335
34,206
30,464


19

University of Colorado (http://www.cubuffs.com/)
Boulder
CO
NCAA I
31,737
33,855
29,618


20

University of Southern California (http://usctrojans.com/)
Los Angeles
CA
NCAA I
31,565
32,488
30,642


21

DePaul University (http://www.depaulbluedemons.com/)
Chicago
IL
NCAA I
30,957
25,512
36,401


22

University of Maryland (http://www.umterps.com/)
College Park
MD
NCAA I
30,629
29,969
31,288


23

LIU Brooklyn (http://liuathletics.com/)
Brooklyn
NY
NCAA I
30,600
30,289
30,911


24

Stanford University (http://www.gostanford.com/)
Palo Alto
CA
NCAA I
30,501
30,291
30,711


25

Furman University (http://www.furmanpaladins.com/landing/index)
Greenville
SC
NCAA I
30,306
28,599
32,013



Here are the average scholarships by sport for Men's Baseball, Basketball, and Football (FBS vs FCS) .. link has all other sports including Womens. But my main focus is really Basketball & Football, plus FBS vs FCS.

So FBS football ranges from 25-42k, Basketball ranges from 26 to 53k, FCS football even ranges from 15k to 30k.

I think my original assumptions are not far off at all, though decrease for less popular sports,



Athletic Scholarships


Average Scholarship per Team

Scholarships awarded per team


Men's NCAA I Teams *
Teams

Average
Low
High

Average
Low
High


Baseball (http://www.scholarshipstats.com/baseball.html)
299

$ 13,220
$ 6,298
$ 25,934

26
14
30


Basketball (http://www.scholarshipstats.com/basketball.htm)
351

$ 38,246
$ 26,896
$ 53,075

13
11
15


Football - FBS (http://www.scholarshipstats.com/football.html)
129

$ 36,070
$ 25,237
$ 42,443

88
82
95


Football - FCS (http://www.scholarshipstats.com/football.html)
125

$ 20,706
$ 14,474
$ 30,505

81
72
85



And lest anyone think it diminishes for Women's sports, several range much higher than the most popular Men's Sports.

[Anthony215]

If the FBS scholarships are full rides and can't be broken up how is it some teams have 95 scholarships? Or does those who are medically disqualified still included in this count?

[Bisonoline]

Does that account for the free tutoring and other services other students don't have the same level of access to (in some cases meals, housing, massages, even haircuts)?

Its all included in the cost of tuition, room and board etc etc. You cant take a perk and charge for it again.

[cx500d]

So I am mainly refering to FBS/P5 conferences where this would mostly likely come into play in terms of the budget to potentially pay student-athletes. Obviously as we move down to G5/FCS, D-II, etc . the budgets and donors that could have the means to do so would diminish increasingly as you move down.

Here is a website which tallies the scholarship averages: http://www.scholarshipstats.com/average-per-athlete.html

Here are the top 25 avg scholarships by school:




Highest Average Athletic



Average Athletic Scholarship *


Rank

Scholarship 2018-19:
City
State
Division
Total
Men
Women


1

University of Miami (http://hurricanesports.com/)
Coral Gables
FL
NCAA I
47,347
52,641
42,053


2

Southern Methodist University (http://smumustangs.com/)
Dallas
TX
NCAA I
46,509
48,360
44,657


3

Vanderbilt University (http://www.vucommodores.com/)
Nashville
TN
NCAA I
44,496
48,383
40,609


4

Wake Forest University (http://www.wakeforestsports.com/)
Winston-Salem
NC
NCAA I
44,068
43,456
44,680


5

Tulane University (https://tulanegreenwave.com/)
New Orleans
LA
NCAA I
41,698
41,132
42,264


6

Northwestern University (http://www.nusports.com/)
Evanston
IL
NCAA I
40,547
43,943
37,151


7

Texas Christian University (http://www.gofrogs.com/)
Fort Worth
TX
NCAA I
39,367
44,270
34,464


8

Rice University (http://www.riceowls.com/)
Houston
TX
NCAA I
38,517
39,578
37,456


9

University of Tulsa (http://tulsahurricane.com/)
Tulsa
OK
NCAA I
35,315
38,100
32,531


10

University of Denver (http://www.denverpioneers.com/)
Denver
CO
NCAA I
35,029
29,905
40,153


11

Duke University (http://www.goduke.com/)
Durham
NC
NCAA I
34,631
32,606
36,656


12

Auburn University (http://www.auburntigers.com/)
Auburn
AL
NCAA I
34,630
36,014
33,245


13

University of San Francisco (http://www.usfdons.com/)
San Francisco
CA
NCAA I
34,044
27,929
40,158


14

Baylor University (http://www.baylorbears.com/)
Waco
TX
NCAA I
33,230
40,645
25,816


15

University of Notre Dame (http://www.und.com/)
Notre Dame
IN
NCAA I
33,113
33,424
32,802


16

Northeastern University (http://www.gonu.com/)
Boston
MA
NCAA I
32,516
30,766
34,267


17

Syracuse University (http://www.cuse.com/)
Syracuse
NY
NCAA I
32,356
29,216
35,497


18

Louisiana State University (http://www.lsusports.net/)
Baton Rouge
LA
NCAA I
32,335
34,206
30,464


19

University of Colorado (http://www.cubuffs.com/)
Boulder
CO
NCAA I
31,737
33,855
29,618


20

University of Southern California (http://usctrojans.com/)
Los Angeles
CA
NCAA I
31,565
32,488
30,642


21

DePaul University (http://www.depaulbluedemons.com/)
Chicago
IL
NCAA I
30,957
25,512
36,401


22

University of Maryland (http://www.umterps.com/)
College Park
MD
NCAA I
30,629
29,969
31,288


23

LIU Brooklyn (http://liuathletics.com/)
Brooklyn
NY
NCAA I
30,600
30,289
30,911


24

Stanford University (http://www.gostanford.com/)
Palo Alto
CA
NCAA I
30,501
30,291
30,711


25

Furman University (http://www.furmanpaladins.com/landing/index)
Greenville
SC
NCAA I
30,306
28,599
32,013



Here are the average scholarships by sport for Men's Baseball, Basketball, and Football (FBS vs FCS) .. link has all other sports including Womens. But my main focus is really Basketball & Football, plus FBS vs FCS.

So FBS football ranges from 25-42k, Basketball ranges from 26 to 53k, FCS football even ranges from 15k to 30k.

I think my original assumptions are not far off at all, though decrease for less popular sports,



Athletic Scholarships


Average Scholarship per Team

Scholarships awarded per team


Men's NCAA I Teams *
Teams

Average
Low
High

Average
Low
High


Baseball (http://www.scholarshipstats.com/baseball.html)
299

$ 13,220
$ 6,298
$ 25,934

26
14
30


Basketball (http://www.scholarshipstats.com/basketball.htm)
351

$ 38,246
$ 26,896
$ 53,075

13
11
15


Football - FBS (http://www.scholarshipstats.com/football.html)
129

$ 36,070
$ 25,237
$ 42,443

88
82
95


Football - FCS (http://www.scholarshipstats.com/football.html)
125

$ 20,706
$ 14,474
$ 30,505

81
72
85



And lest anyone think it diminishes for Women's sports, several range much higher than the most popular Men's Sports.





I’m surprised there are some cheap ass southern state universities mixed in with a bunch of private schools


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Redbird 4th & short]

Its all included in the cost of tuition, room and board etc etc. You cant take a perk and charge for it again.
Why not .. if the perk is over and above what non-athletes have access to, then it's allocation of value and cost is over and above their scholarship compared to rest of students. Particularly all of the academic support that is made available, actually imposed on all athletes who need it to stay eligible, not to mention improve the athletes chance of graduating. Also things like food and nutrition tables, sports apparel, etc. The general student body doesn't get nearly as much of those perks as athletes. Now if every student had access to same, then you would be correct.

[Bisonoline]

Why not .. if the perk is over and above what non-athletes have access to, then it's allocation of value and cost is over and above their scholarship compared to rest of students. Particularly all of the academic support that is made available, actually imposed on all athletes who need it to stay eligible, not to mention improve the athletes chance of graduating. Also things like food and nutrition tables, sports apparel, etc. The general student body doesn't get nearly as much of those perks as athletes. Now if every student had access to same, then you would be correct.

The cost of going to school is the cost of going to school. If they are providing tutors then that is included in the budget. If they are providing anything to the athlete its accounted for in the budget. Makes no difference if its available to other students or not.

[PAllen]

Its all included in the cost of tuition, room and board etc etc. You cant take a perk and charge for it again.

You missed the point. They are getting all of this additional stuff for free along with a very expensive free education.

[Bisonoline]

You missed the point. They are getting all of this additional stuff for free along with a very expensive free education.

You miss the point. Its not free.

[clenz]

You miss the point. Its not free.
It is a perk being provided to them that isn't provided to any other students on campus.

Thus it is either free for them
Or other students on campus are getting absolutely ****ed and paying for student athletes to have tutors while not getting the same even though they are paying for it.

Neither one is "good" in terms of providing benefits athletes in terms of NCAA rules.

[Redbird 4th & short]

The cost of going to school is the cost of going to school. If they are providing tutors then that is included in the budget. If they are providing anything to the athlete its accounted for in the budget. Makes no difference if its available to other students or not.
For purposes of this debate over "adequacy" of compensation to college athletes, it makes every difference in the world that student-athletes get many more perks than non-athletes. And with respect to academic based support .. not just tutoring, but also time management training, class/career advising, reminding/bird-dogging them to do homework, study for test, show up to class, etc .. all of which is imposed on the student-athlete to protect their investment/scholarship. And furthermore designed to keep that student-athlete eligible, improve their grades, and most importantly, improve their chance of graduating ... that aspect alone is way above and beyond what any other student gets and not only costs the college, but improves that student=athletes job prospects after college. This is what I love about what APR incents sports programs to do .. it provides a metric (however imperfect), plublishes it, then threatens conssequences if they fall short .. however imperfectly enforced, it all helps .. and all costs money.

In any case, it makes a difference that athletes benefit from all this far more than non-athletes .. now and after college. But the budget exercise should not be looked at only in aggregate .. basic cost accounting is needed to determine if the school feels athletes are worth their entire investment in terms of what sports do to enhance their HS recruitment efforts, their enrollment, the overall college campus experience, and ultimately fund raising. This is why Homecoming is such a big deal .. keeping alumni feeling connected and then opening up their checkbooks as a result.

In the end, graduating with a degree and no student debt is such a huge benefit to that student-athlete .. plus they got to continue playing their sport for 4 more years as well. A very very good deal for at least 95% of D-I college athletes who will never make a career playing their sport professionally. Maybe 1-2% will play professionally in their sport and make some kind of a living .. most for only a few years.

[Bisonoline]

It is a perk being provided to them that isn't provided to any other students on campus.

Thus it is either free for them
Or other students on campus are getting absolutely ****ed and paying for student athletes to have tutors while not getting the same even though they are paying for it.

Neither one is "good" in terms of providing benefits athletes in terms of NCAA rules.

If one want to characterize it to justify it for the point of view you want to make then have at it. But the fact is any benefit a student athlete receives certainly isnt free. The athlete has earned every penny of it.

Other students on campus is just a strawman. But if you want to go down that raod I would have welcomed another student to hitch his wagon to mine and go through a season and see how long he would last. As a matter of fact the time commitment and over all training now is even greater than when I played.

[Bisonoline]

For purposes of this debate over "adequacy" of compensation to college athletes, it makes every difference in the world that student-athletes get many more perks than non-athletes. And with respect to academic based support .. not just tutoring, but also time management training, class/career advising, reminding/bird-dogging them to do homework, study for test, show up to class, etc .. all of which is imposed on the student-athlete to protect their investment/scholarship. And furthermore designed to keep that student-athlete eligible, improve their grades, and most importantly, improve their chance of graduating ... that aspect alone is way above and beyond what any other student gets and not only costs the college, but improves that student=athletes job prospects after college. This is what I love about what APR incents sports programs to do .. it provides a metric (however imperfect), plublishes it, then threatens conssequences if they fall short .. however imperfectly enforced, it all helps .. and all costs money.

In any case, it makes a difference that athletes benefit from all this far more than non-athletes .. now and after college. But the budget exercise should not be looked at only in aggregate .. basic cost accounting is needed to determine if the school feels athletes are worth their entire investment in terms of what sports do to enhance their HS recruitment efforts, their enrollment, the overall college campus experience, and ultimately fund raising. This is why Homecoming is such a big deal .. keeping alumni feeling connected and then opening up their checkbooks as a result.

In the end, graduating with a degree and no student debt is such a huge benefit to that student-athlete .. plus they got to continue playing their sport for 4 more years as well. A very very good deal for at least 95% of D-I college athletes who will never make a career playing their sport professionally. Maybe 1-2% will play professionally in their sport and make some kind of a living .. most for only a few years.

xdeadhorsex

[Redbird 4th & short]

xdeadhorsex

Well ... it's not a dead horse yet, if you're still arguing with multiple posters.

[Bisonoline]

Well ... it's not a dead horse yet, if you're still arguing with multiple posters.

You obviously are unable to grasp the meaning of that term.

[Professor Chaos]

The NCAA D1 Board of Directors decided not to recommend this one-time transfer waiver for football, men's and women's basketball, baseball, and men's hockey athletes. The D1 Council is expected to vote on it in May.

https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/29118140/ncaa-board-does-not-recommend-changes-transfer-waiver-process

[smallcollegefbfan]

If coaches can move, athletes should be able to also.

Coaches can move but they have to pay a buyout if there is time left on their contract. So, if coaches are paying the school a buyout then if players make a salary they should have to pay a buyout. If players are not legally paid money then what should players have to do? I think if your coach leaves you should be able to leave as well but I don't think a player should be able to transfer every single year. I don't want a player to be unhappy but there needs to be some academic requirement or something so it is not the wild west and seeing your top 2-3 players every year leave for a higher level just because people tell them they are good enough to go.

[smallcollegefbfan]

The rule will hurt FCS schools relative to the G5. Right now the FCS as a whole is a beneficiary of the transfer rule requiring players to sit out a year. Currently, a non-graduate student athlete at a power program who wants to leave because of playing issues, coaching change, culture, etc. has to sit out a year if he transfers to either another power program or a G5. However, if that player prefers to play right away, he can go FCS and be immediately eligible. With this rule change, that player can now transfer to say, Old Dominion, in stead of James Madison or Towson. Or Temple instead of Delaware. Or Troy instead of Jacksonville State. Not to mention breakout stars at our level would now be free to transfer up without having to sit out. Why WOULDN'T someone like NDSU's frosh QB jump to a Big Ten or Big 12 school immediately if promised the starting job?

On the basketball side, most schools that currently sponsor FCS football would be considered mid-majors (not looking at you Villanova, Butler or Georgetown). In basketball, the amended transfer rule would probably be a wash. Sure, maybe Stephen Curry leaves Davidson for Virginia Tech after his freshman year, or CJ McCollum (Lehigh) for Kansas. However, on the flip side, many guys dissatisfied with playing time at power schools would certainly look to smaller Division I programs for the opportunity to secure playing time right away without having to sit out a year.

I actually think if you remove the requirement to sit out a year that G5 schools benefit the most. Many of these P5 players would try to go there before they drop all the way to FCS. FCS players would freely move up all the time. I could see a case where you have 10 underclassmen earn 1st team All-America honors and 7-8 of them move right up to FBS immediately just because they think they need to for a better chance at the NFL.

We have already seen a large number of grad transfers who were All-Conference in 2019. I think about 15 or so that have left FCS since December.