Any Marist fans on the AGS board?

[Go...gate]

Trying to get a fix on the School's Strategic Plan. The one on the MC website is good but very long.

[TheBisonator]

Any WHAT fans???...xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx

[UAalum72]

Tried their fan forum? http://www.voy.com/51393/

[hvsader]

Their new stadium will be ready for this season. While not large, it's going to be very impressive with some Hudson River views. I believe their ultimate strategery would be to join the PL if an opportunity were available

[Fresno St. Alum]

I'd like to see Marist as an all sports member in the Patriot

[Go...gate]

Tried their fan forum? http://www.voy.com/51393/

Didn't know about this. Many thanks.

[NDSUFREAK]

I only know of Marist because I saw them beat minnesota in bb during the season. other than that didn't know they had a football team.

[TheValleyRaider]

I think maacfb is a Marist alum. He probably knows more than any of us. I too would welcome the Red Foxes into the Patriot League, if they're willing to spend the dough on their team and not just the stadium.

[PantherRob82]

I also didn't know Marist had a team. xsmhx

[hvsader]

Bill O'Reilly played football @ Marist

[PantherRob82]

Bill O'Reilly played football @ Marist

seriously? that must have been annoying for the other team. xlolx

[DFW HOYA]

Bill O'Reilly played football @ Marist

O'Reilly once claimed he led the nation in punting as a senior at Marist. Keith Olbermann wasn't buying O'Reilly's assertion.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200502080004

[UAalum72]

The Marist Media guide says senior punter William J. O'Reilly averaged 41.4 YPK in 1970. As KO points out, recordkeeping in the National Club Football Association could be somewhat unreliable.

[Go...gate]

Anybody willing to predict that if Marist joins the PL, the PL will stay need-based in football?

[LUHawker]

I'd like to see Marist as an all sports member in the Patriot

As a Lehigh Alum and PL fan, I would NOT at all like to see Marist join the Patriot League. I do have to admit though, I like their nickname - the Red Foxes.

[Col Hogan]

As a Lehigh Alum and PL fan, I would NOT at all like to see Marist join the Patriot League. I do have to admit though, I like their nickname - the Red Foxes.

Fair enough...but could you elaborate on why you would not like to see them in the PL?

[LUHawker]

Fair enough...but could you elaborate on why you would not like to see them in the PL?

I've made this same comment on various other threads related to the Patriot League and expansion, but I'll summarize here as well. Other than being a good geographical fit, Marist doesn't bring anything to the party in my mind. It doesnt' have similar academics. It doesn't commit the same type of resources to football. It doesn't have any long term relationships with any of the PL schools. It lacks tradition. It won't improve the actual or perceived strength of the Patriot League. Those are the main reasons. Personally I also would not be "jazzed up" to go see a Lehigh-Marist game; it just doesn't elicit any excitement at all. This is not to say Marist isn't a fine institution and they do have a great Hudson River location, but that certainly doesn't trump the other reasons.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I've made this same comment on various other threads related to the Patriot League and expansion, but I'll summarize here as well. Other than being a good geographical fit, Marist doesn't bring anything to the party in my mind. It doesnt' have similar academics. It doesn't commit the same type of resources to football. It doesn't have any long term relationships with any of the PL schools. It lacks tradition. It won't improve the actual or perceived strength of the Patriot League. Those are the main reasons. Personally I also would not be "jazzed up" to go see a Lehigh-Marist game; it just doesn't elicit any excitement at all. This is not to say Marist isn't a fine institution and they do have a great Hudson River location, but that certainly doesn't trump the other reasons.

LUHawker, I know you and I will agree to disagree about this. But I need to point some things out.

If Marist were to join in all sports, men's basketball without a doubt will be greatly improved, perceived or not.

In football, Marist plays 4 PL schools this year, and played (I think) four last year. If that's not a long-term relationship (or at least trying to develop one), I don't know what is.

It doesn't commit the same resources to football since their league is non-scholarship. No doubt they would need to increase spending to PL levels - nobody expects them to have a $500,000 budget if they join. Furthermore, they just beefed up their stadium.

Fordham wasn't a rivalry with other PL schools until they kicked our butts in 2002. You can bet it 2003 I was excited to see Fordham come to Murray Goodman in a rainstorm, even though in 1999 it was hard to think that they would ever be an opponent to strike fear in our hearts. Marist may not seem like a rivalry now, but it could easily become one.

Academically, on the other thread I said that the only thing that seems to be keeping Marist out of the discussion is this feeling that "we're too good for them" academically. I still feel that way - and I don't see Marist as a huge academic drop.

[ngineer]

Bill O'Reilly played football @ Marist


Oh no...gotta move this thread to the Political Loungexrolleyesx ...and that's a 'memo';) :D

[ngineer]

Marist wouldn't be my first choice, though I confess that I don't know enough about them. Always perceived as a basketball school, to me. They'd have to make a BIG step up in athletic expenditures. I'd still rather see one of potential 'disaffected' teams from the over-expanding CAA if there was still a shot..i.e. Richmond, Villanova, etc, or VMI. From a football perspective, adding Marist does not strengthen the league--at least in the short term.

[Gater]

I think there is a relatively good chance that the other Poughkeepsie school (Vassar) will be accepted into the Patriot League before Marist. Bringing a school into the league should help athletically or academically. Marist, though a perfectly good school, does neither. It would be like the Ivy League inviting in Bucknell. Bucknell is a very good school but it would only hurt the Ivy's overall reputation. The only option for Patriot League expansion is for the current members to embrace the inevitable move to full scholarships in football and then try to poach William and Mary or Richmond.

[ngineer]

I think there is a relatively good chance that the other Poughkeepsie school (Vassar) will be accepted into the Patriot League before Marist. Bringing a school into the league should help athletically or academically. Marist, though a perfectly good school, does neither. It would be like the Ivy League inviting in Bucknell. Bucknell is a very good school but it would only hurt the Ivy's overall reputation. The only option for Patriot League expansion is for the current members to embrace the inevitable move to full scholarships in football and then try to poach William and Mary or Richmond.

That perception is changing--in fact from an academic standpoint, Bucknell and few other Patriot schools are viewed more favorably than Cornell, Penn, or Brown depending on the major.

[hvsader]

Marist regularly wins the MAAC Commissioner's Cup...usually not even close. Very strong in swimming/diving, water polo, baseball, soccer, etc

[LUHawker]

LUHawker, I know you and I will agree to disagree about this. But I need to point some things out.

If Marist were to join in all sports, men's basketball without a doubt will be greatly improved, perceived or not.

In football, Marist plays 4 PL schools this year, and played (I think) four last year. If that's not a long-term relationship (or at least trying to develop one), I don't know what is.

It doesn't commit the same resources to football since their league is non-scholarship. No doubt they would need to increase spending to PL levels - nobody expects them to have a $500,000 budget if they join. Furthermore, they just beefed up their stadium.

Fordham wasn't a rivalry with other PL schools until they kicked our butts in 2002. You can bet it 2003 I was excited to see Fordham come to Murray Goodman in a rainstorm, even though in 1999 it was hard to think that they would ever be an opponent to strike fear in our hearts. Marist may not seem like a rivalry now, but it could easily become one.

Academically, on the other thread I said that the only thing that seems to be keeping Marist out of the discussion is this feeling that "we're too good for them" academically. I still feel that way - and I don't see Marist as a huge academic drop.

Marist would improve the PL's image in hoops, but that is just one sport among 30 and I was also focusing predominantly on football. Although Fordham wasn't a "rivalry" until recently, at least it had a long and storied football history that it brought to the table. Of course they would have to spend more in the PL, but the point is they would have to dramatically increase spending and commitment, which isn't easy to do. Think about Georgetown and how difficult it has been for them in the PL - I've no reason to think Marist wouldn't have similar difficulties. Lastly, and I'll say it here so we can stop beating around the bush...Marist is no where close to the academic standing of the Patriot League schools. Call it elitist, call it pomposity, call it whatever you want, but Marist isn't on par with the PL schools and that is a big deal breaker in my mind to Marist joining the PL. One of the nice things about the PL is that you have all like-minded (generally) schools that are part of the league and that makes it unique and special. I wouldn't want to dilute that element.

[TheValleyRaider]

Why do people still bring up the possibility of W&M/Nova/Richmond etc. for the league? William & Mary, especially, is not going anywhere. They're a full CAA member, and if the CAA reaches some critical mass and has to break apart, W&M will be right there with them. And after the alumni reaction at the possibility of Richmond going PL, I can't see that happening in the near future. If the Patriot League is looking to expand within the next 5-10 years (and if there's a timeframe I would bet that's it), we'd have to be a lot more flexible than Richmond/Villanova. Keep in mind also we'd want an all-sports member, and UR/Nova are not leaving their conferences for the Patriot League.

I really think that if Marist can demonstrate a commitment to really putting money into their Football program (they have plenty of strengths in other sports), both the school and the League will benefit in the long run. Marist's academic numbers might not start quite at the levels that we'd necessarily want, but I would bet that they see real improvement once their name starts getting mentioned with Colgate/Bucknell/Lehigh/Holy Cross/etc. xtwocentsx

[boo]

Marist's academic numbers might not start quite at the levels that we'd necessarily want, but I would bet that they see real improvement once their name starts getting mentioned with Colgate/Bucknell/Lehigh/Holy Cross/etc. xtwocentsx

I have to agree. Marist has steadily improved their academic standing and PL membership would only enhance that. I believe that association with elite academic schools combined with a continued effort to improve academic standards will result in a better known, academically respected institution.

~~Boo

[LUHawker]

I have to agree. Marist has steadily improved their academic standing and PL membership would only enhance that. I believe that association with elite academic schools combined with a continued effort to improve academic standards will result in a better known, academically respected institution.

~~Boo

Conversely, association by elite academic schools with lesser esteemed instititutions would suggest that their perceived reputations could be diminished. So what would the benefit be for the PL, exactly (besides purely a bigger conference)?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Conversely, association by elite academic schools with lesser esteemed instititutions would suggest that their perceived reputations could be diminished. So what would the benefit be for the PL, exactly (besides purely a bigger conference)?

Come on, get your nose out of the air. You REALLY think Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell are going to see their academic reputation diminish since Marist wants to join our league?

Has American made our academic prestige diminish? Did Towson? Has anyone really said, "Well, gee, I could go to Lehigh or Columbia, but Lehigh shares a league with American, so I'm going to college in Manhattan?"

What's especially frustrating is that it's not like Towson, Marist or American are really, really crappy schools academically. If it's a school like Savannah State that wants to join - a school with a history of violating NCAA rules - that's one thing. But Marist seems like a squeaky-clean program. Argue if you want that they may not be ready to move up, that Georgetown has struggled, or whatever. But don't say that people are going to stop applying to other PL schools since one of their members isn't "most selective" in USNWR.

[boo]

Conversely, association by elite academic schools with lesser esteemed instititutions would suggest that their perceived reputations could be diminished. So what would the benefit be for the PL, exactly (besides purely a bigger conference)?

Well, you'd get college students who can spell 'institutions.' Ok, that was a joke.

Seriously, you'd get a school committed to many of the same principals as the other institutions of the PL. You'd probably get a school who wants to be a member and would commit to the league.

~~Boo

[Gater]

What makes the Patriot League unique is that it is comprised of schools of near Ivy caliber. People can kid themselves into thinking that Bucknell is as prestigious as Brown—and maybe Bucknell’s SOAN department is better—but no one is going to say that Marist is at the same level as Cornell. I would imagine Marist isn’t even a safety school for people applying to Cornell. Is that a judgment of the Marist? Probably. But it is also a reality. Bringing in Marist hurts the Patriot League academically and football-wise. So, why do it? When you start bringing in schools that don’t match up academically, you lose what makes the Patriot League special—and let’s be honest—the level of football we play doesn’t make us special and Marist only hurts that too. Isn’t the point of bringing a team into the league to better the league? Marist’s addition helps in softball, water-polo and views of the Hudson but little else.
I see no reason for the league to expand but every reason for the league to have football scholarships. Holy Cross went something like 40-4 in the late 80’s with scholarships. Colgate was top 20 (in the big boys’ league) in 1977 before it got rid of scholarships. Imagine a league where we regularly beat teams like UNH and UMASS—instead of pulling off the rare upset. It seems like a dream but that is what will happen with scholarships because the Patriot League would be unique. We would be schools with great academic reputations where you can play really good football. If we became that, schools like William and Mary (which was a member of the original Colonial League—which became the Patriot League) would come running. And people on this board would be debating whether the Patriot League deserved three playoff invitations instead of whether Marist is a good fit.

[Go...gate]

What makes the Patriot League unique is that it is comprised of schools of near Ivy caliber. People can kid themselves into thinking that Bucknell is as prestigious as Brown—and maybe Bucknell’s SOAN department is better—but no one is going to say that Marist is at the same level as Cornell. I would imagine Marist isn’t even a safety school for people applying to Cornell. Is that a judgment of the Marist? Probably. But it is also a reality. Bringing in Marist hurts the Patriot League academically and football-wise. So, why do it? When you start bringing in schools that don’t match up academically, you lose what makes the Patriot League special—and let’s be honest—the level of football we play doesn’t make us special and Marist only hurts that too. Isn’t the point of bringing a team into the league to better the league? Marist’s addition helps in softball, water-polo and views of the Hudson but little else.
I see no reason for the league to expand but every reason for the league to have football scholarships. Holy Cross went something like 40-4 in the late 80’s with scholarships. Colgate was top 20 (in the big boys’ league) in 1977 before it got rid of scholarships. Imagine a league where we regularly beat teams like UNH and UMASS—instead of pulling off the rare upset. It seems like a dream but that is what will happen with scholarships because the Patriot League would be unique. We would be schools with great academic reputations where you can play really good football. If we became that, schools like William and Mary (which was a member of the original Colonial League—which became the Patriot League) would come running. And people on this board would be debating whether the Patriot League deserved three playoff invitations instead of whether Marist is a good fit.

We were non-scholarship in 1977.

[Gater]

Really? I thought the last scholarships were in '85. I recant my entire argument and would like to formally welcome Marist to the league.

[LUHawker]

Come on, get your nose out of the air. You REALLY think Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell are going to see their academic reputation diminish since Marist wants to join our league?


No, I don't think the academic reputuations of the PL schools would diminish. I was simply stating a converse argument. However, I still ask what Marist brings to the table and I've yet to see a convincing argument. Since you, LFN, seem to be advocating Marist, what do you think they bring to the table besides another body (figuratively speaking)?

[Go...gate]

Really? I thought the last scholarships were in '85. I recant my entire argument and would like to formally welcome Marist to the league.

Not trying to be contrarian in any way, Gater - happy to have another Colgate poster on the AGS board.

By institutional policy, we have pretty much always followed what the Ivy Group/Ivy League has done since they informally organized in the 1940's. This always included need-based aid.

Whether Marist is a good fit for the Patriot League is another question entirely. Thay have a lot of work to do - but their admission is certainly not out of the question.

It should be noted that American University entered the league based upon a promise that they were in the process of upgrading their academic profile, and they are keeping that promise (some believe that American de-emphasized athletics somewhat after they joined the PL, and this is borne out by their recent strategic plan, which shows that they are seeking a much more national profile, plowing millions into their academic programs, reducing their size slightly and significantly upgrading their selectivity). This give them greater de facto long-term compatibility with the other PL schools. Frankly, Marist would have to make a similar commitment and follow through with it.

[carney2]

No, I don't think the academic reputuations of the PL schools would diminish. I was simply stating a converse argument. However, I still ask what Marist brings to the table and I've yet to see a convincing argument. Since you, LFN, seem to be advocating Marist, what do you think they bring to the table besides another body (figuratively speaking)?

Exactly. Bodies are what we need. While we sit around dreaming of Villanova, Richmond, W&M, and God knows what other incredible and unachievable fairy tale outcomes, this thing is spinning on toward some indeterminate outcome that just may not be what we hope. I used to be like you. I've come around to the "bird in the hand" way of thinking as regards PL expansion.

[Go...gate]

Why do people still bring up the possibility of W&M/Nova/Richmond etc. for the league? William & Mary, especially, is not going anywhere. They're a full CAA member, and if the CAA reaches some critical mass and has to break apart, W&M will be right there with them. And after the alumni reaction at the possibility of Richmond going PL, I can't see that happening in the near future. If the Patriot League is looking to expand within the next 5-10 years (and if there's a timeframe I would bet that's it), we'd have to be a lot more flexible than Richmond/Villanova. Keep in mind also we'd want an all-sports member, and UR/Nova are not leaving their conferences for the Patriot League.

I really think that if Marist can demonstrate a commitment to really putting money into their Football program (they have plenty of strengths in other sports), both the school and the League will benefit in the long run. Marist's academic numbers might not start quite at the levels that we'd necessarily want, but I would bet that they see real improvement once their name starts getting mentioned with Colgate/Bucknell/Lehigh/Holy Cross/etc. xtwocentsx

You hit it right on the head, ValleyRaider. The entry of these schools into the PL, even as Associate Members, is as likely as Colgate's joining the Ivy League, which quite a few of us hoped for over many years but clearly will never happen. If the PL is our league, which it looks to be, we must set about strengthening it and treating it as our own.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No, I don't think the academic reputuations of the PL schools would diminish. I was simply stating a converse argument. However, I still ask what Marist brings to the table and I've yet to see a convincing argument. Since you, LFN, seem to be advocating Marist, what do you think they bring to the table besides another body (figuratively speaking)?

Marist is a school with a plan to become one of the top liberal arts schools in the country. They seem very dedicated to academics and are an exceptionally "wired" campus for computer equipment. Since 1980 they have been expanding enrollment, building a bigger campus and seem to be devoting the attention to detail that a rising school should be doing.

They also are dedicated to intercollegiate athletics and football in particular. Not only has their football stadium Leonidiff field, been upgraded last year, it also has been the flagship for other MAAC tournaments in lacrosse and soccer.

Marist was a bracket-buster in men's b-ball last year, and the women's b-ball team had a miracle run to the Sweet 16. In those two crucial sports, it immediately upgrades the Patriot League significantly, and it also is a pretty good addition in a lot of other sports.

Marist's football team started as a club sport, and then went from D-III to D-I non-scholarship, where it remains today. Their competitive level and spending level is no different than any other non-scholarship FCS team. If they went to the PL, you have to think that this would improve. In recent years they have made an effort to schedule PL foes in football, trying to cultivate a relationship above and beyond non-scholly ball.

Marist doesn't seem have any desire to stop playing football, although their conference, the MAAC, is dying with only four members scheduled after this year. I bring this up in that there could possibly be no better opportunity to have a school like this join the Patriot League. Furthermore, it beats any other active opportunity for expansion by far.

You have to also believe that their dedication for keeping football is sincere. In a league where leaguemates are leaving non-scholly football in droves, they are *upgrading* their facilities.

What they bring is an up-and-coming school academically and athletically (in football). What they bring now is a large set of sports teams, improving stability and competitiveness of the PL. They are in a good region geographically, having the potential of developing a football rivalry with Fordham and possibly Colgate, and rivalries with Army in other sports. Maybe other basketball-only schools like Manhattan, Siena or Canisius take a new look at the Patriot League and think about leaving the dying MAAC and joining the PL. Maybe they even decide to start up competitive need-based football as a result.

That's what they bring to the table.

[LUHawker]

Marist is a school with a plan to become one of the top liberal arts schools in the country. They seem very dedicated to academics and are an exceptionally "wired" campus for computer equipment. Since 1980 they have been expanding enrollment, building a bigger campus and seem to be devoting the attention to detail that a rising school should be doing.

They also are dedicated to intercollegiate athletics and football in particular. Not only has their football stadium Leonidiff field, been upgraded last year, it also has been the flagship for other MAAC tournaments in lacrosse and soccer.

Marist was a bracket-buster in men's b-ball last year, and the women's b-ball team had a miracle run to the Sweet 16. In those two crucial sports, it immediately upgrades the Patriot League significantly, and it also is a pretty good addition in a lot of other sports.

Marist's football team started as a club sport, and then went from D-III to D-I non-scholarship, where it remains today. Their competitive level and spending level is no different than any other non-scholarship FCS team. If they went to the PL, you have to think that this would improve. In recent years they have made an effort to schedule PL foes in football, trying to cultivate a relationship above and beyond non-scholly ball.

Marist doesn't seem have any desire to stop playing football, although their conference, the MAAC, is dying with only four members scheduled after this year. I bring this up in that there could possibly be no better opportunity to have a school like this join the Patriot League. Furthermore, it beats any other active opportunity for expansion by far.

You have to also believe that their dedication for keeping football is sincere. In a league where leaguemates are leaving non-scholly football in droves, they are *upgrading* their facilities.

What they bring is an up-and-coming school academically and athletically (in football). What they bring now is a large set of sports teams, improving stability and competitiveness of the PL. They are in a good region geographically, having the potential of developing a football rivalry with Fordham and possibly Colgate, and rivalries with Army in other sports. Maybe other basketball-only schools like Manhattan, Siena or Canisius take a new look at the Patriot League and think about leaving the dying MAAC and joining the PL. Maybe they even decide to start up competitive need-based football as a result.

That's what they bring to the table.

That was well put together LFN, but I think you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on this topic. You highlight some marginal advantages to inclusion in the PL, but I've yet to be convinced - and I'm not likely to be. Most of the major pluses you point out are on the come. I am also not a believer that a marginal addition to the league is better than no addition at all. If the PL goes scholarship, I think a lot of the concerns about the PL dissipate. I'm not holding out hope for Villanova or Richmond, but I think being patient and methodical in an approach for expansion fo rthe league could ultimately yield a nice result. Lastly, I see a lot of upside for Marist, but don't see much for the PL.

[boo]

Lastly, I see a lot of upside for Marist, but don't see much for the PL.

I agree that Marist would benefit greatly from PL membership, and, at least from an academic achievement standpoint, I see your point. However, Marist needs to do something. MAAC football is an absolute joke. Marist, with the exception of Men's Basketball, rules the MAAC. Marist has been on an impressive building spree and has seen the fruits of that labor in a harvest of better academic classes every year. If Marist moves to another conference, it should be to one of academic-minded schools who provide well rounded and balanced athletic programs. Perhaps the PL isn't the answer. I know the MAAC isn't the answer anymore.

BTW, what brought this thread on, anyway? Was there an event or public comment that indicated Marist interest in the PL, or vise-versa? Last I heard was that Marist would stick with the MAAC and seek inclusion in the PFL for football...

~~Boo

[maacfb]

marist alum here and I would certainly be for an all sports move to the PL. I fully agree with Lehigh Football Nations sentiments. For a school that is looking to improve its academic profile considerably and one that has been successful in doing so to date being associated with the names of the PL is a huge advantage. Although we don't bring everything most PL elitists would like to see, Im in the camp that Marist could be a school that adds stability to the conference in the long term. For those that knock academics we are better than Towson who was only an associate and are quickly improving the schools academic standing. Football right now wouldnt be immediately competitive but im pretty sure every other sport besides lacrosse fits in well. Mens and womens basketball are immediate upgrades, baseball at worst can hold its own, swimming is top tier, soccer is competitive. Looking at it from a football perspective, Marist may not make sense but I think as an all sports member we bring more to the table

[DFW HOYA]

It should be noted that American University entered the league based upon a promise that they were in the process of upgrading their academic profile, and they are keeping that promise (some believe that American de-emphasized athletics somewhat after they joined the PL, and this is borne out by their recent strategic plan, which shows that they are seeking a much more national profile, plowing millions into their academic programs, reducing their size slightly and significantly upgrading their selectivity). This give them greater de facto long-term compatibility with the other PL schools.

Hard to tell if AU is de-emphasizing anything, given how far back in the pack they've been over the years.

Men's basketball has been in Division I over 40 years and has never earned an NCAA bid. It fields the minimum number of men's sports, and is 7th in the PL all-sports President's Cup. AU struggled mightily in CAA basketball and isn't doing a whole lot better in the PL since the other schools have added scholarships.

[hvsader]

I think there is a relatively good chance that the other Poughkeepsie school (Vassar) will be accepted into the Patriot League before Marist.

I'm hearing from excellent sources that the Culinary Institute of America & Bard College (Chevy Chase played there) both within a few miles of Marist and Vassar are also interested in joining

[Lehigh Football Nation]

marist alum here and I would certainly be for an all sports move to the PL. I fully agree with Lehigh Football Nations sentiments. For a school that is looking to improve its academic profile considerably and one that has been successful in doing so to date being associated with the names of the PL is a huge advantage. Although we don't bring everything most PL elitists would like to see, Im in the camp that Marist could be a school that adds stability to the conference in the long term. For those that knock academics we are better than Towson who was only an associate and are quickly improving the schools academic standing. Football right now wouldnt be immediately competitive but im pretty sure every other sport besides lacrosse fits in well. Mens and womens basketball are immediate upgrades, baseball at worst can hold its own, swimming is top tier, soccer is competitive. Looking at it from a football perspective, Marist may not make sense but I think as an all sports member we bring more to the table

Thanks for weighing in maccfb. For reference, I would like to point out the following:

(H) 09-03-2005 Lafayette 40, Marist 21
(A) 10-01-2005 Bucknell 27, Marist 7
(H) 09-23-2006 Holy Cross 27, Marist 0
(H) 09-30-2006 Bucknell 48, Marist 19
(A) 10-14-2006 Fordham 13, Marist 9
(A) 11-04-2006 Georgetown 24, Marist 21

As a non-scholarship team, they already are competitive with the two last-place teams from last year. You have to think with the grant-in-aid formula in the PL they could assemble a team that is even better in a short period of time. I'm not saying they will be Lafayette overnight, but I don't think that there necessarily would be a long ramp-up period to get them "competitive".

One thing I also wanted to mention: Without scholarships in basketball, we wouldn't even be having this conversation about Marist. The fact that we offer scholarships in basketball gives us more possibilities than ever in recruiting new members. If you think it's inflexible now, just imagine if Holy Cross didn't insist in 1998 to reinstate basketball schollies...

[TheValleyRaider]

I'm hearing from excellent sources that the Culinary Institute of America & Bard College (Chevy Chase played there) both within a few miles of Marist and Vassar are also interested in joining

The CIA...now that's a road trip we can all look forward to xnodx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The CIA...now that's a road trip we can all look forward to xnodx

Can't wait to sample the press box food! xnodx xnodx xnodx

[Pard4Life]

As a non-scholarship team, they already are competitive with the two last-place teams from last year. You have to think with the grant-in-aid formula in the PL they could assemble a team that is even better in a short period of time. I'm not saying they will be Lafayette overnight, but I don't think that there necessarily would be a long ramp-up period to get them "competitive".



Oh so Lafayette is now the standard of the Patriot League? Gee thanks LFN! xrotatehx :)

[Pard4Life]

Hard to tell if AU is de-emphasizing anything, given how far back in the pack they've been over the years.

Men's basketball has been in Division I over 40 years and has never earned an NCAA bid. It fields the minimum number of men's sports, and is 7th in the PL all-sports President's Cup. AU struggled mightily in CAA basketball and isn't doing a whole lot better in the PL since the other schools have added scholarships.

Yes they are in fact. For one, Arthur Rothkopf is a BOT member. American has axed some programs and getting rid of some scholarships.

American had a small successful run in the PL, but thank goodness that is over. Marist in football would be American in basketball and everything else... not perfect, but we need them.

However, unlike American, I believe based upon what I've read here, that Marist is really going someplace with their image and profile. In 10-15 years, they might look like a great PL option in that regard. If we snatch them now, who will remember?

Plus, if we add Marist, that will finally end the 'Ivy-junior' wanna-be label. We are our own man now... that and adding scholarships will shed the image.

[bison137]

marist alum here and I would certainly be for an all sports move to the PL. I fully agree with Lehigh Football Nations sentiments. For a school that is looking to improve its academic profile considerably and one that has been successful in doing so to date being associated with the names of the PL is a huge advantage. Although we don't bring everything most PL elitists would like to see, Im in the camp that Marist could be a school that adds stability to the conference in the long term. For those that knock academics we are better than Towson who was only an associate and are quickly improving the schools academic standing. Football right now wouldnt be immediately competitive but im pretty sure every other sport besides lacrosse fits in well. Mens and womens basketball are immediate upgrades, baseball at worst can hold its own, swimming is top tier, soccer is competitive. Looking at it from a football perspective, Marist may not make sense but I think as an all sports member we bring more to the table


I'd agree that Marist could be competitive in the PL in most sports. Clearly MC men's basketball would have been one of the top three and the women's team would have been #1 in the PL. I agree that soccer would be competitive. Both Marist teams would have finished around 5th in that sport. In cross country, MC would probably have been 6th or 7th in women's and probably 3rd in men's. In swimming, however, there is a huge difference between the PL and the MAAC. Marist dominated the MAAC but in swimming they would have finished no better than 5th in both men's and women's competition, possibly worse.

Still, all in all, there are few sports where MC wouldn't be able to compete, and they would probably be no worse than 6th in the overall President's Cup competition, certainly ahead of American and Holy Cross and maybe ahead of LC.

[Go...gate]

marist alum here and I would certainly be for an all sports move to the PL. I fully agree with Lehigh Football Nations sentiments. For a school that is looking to improve its academic profile considerably and one that has been successful in doing so to date being associated with the names of the PL is a huge advantage. Although we don't bring everything most PL elitists would like to see, Im in the camp that Marist could be a school that adds stability to the conference in the long term. For those that knock academics we are better than Towson who was only an associate and are quickly improving the schools academic standing. Football right now wouldnt be immediately competitive but im pretty sure every other sport besides lacrosse fits in well. Mens and womens basketball are immediate upgrades, baseball at worst can hold its own, swimming is top tier, soccer is competitive. Looking at it from a football perspective, Marist may not make sense but I think as an all sports member we bring more to the table

The Marist Strategic Plan confirms this, as does American's.

[Fresno St. Alum]

I'm a Marist fan for the next 4 days. I sure hope they get an all sports invite to the Patriot.

[boo]

I'm a Marist fan for the next 4 days. I sure hope they get an all sports invite to the Patriot.

OK, I'll bite. Why just the next four days?

~~Boo

[Fresno St. Alum]

I change my avatars every 3 to 4 days
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24533

[Go...gate]

Villanova is not exactly increasing its ties with the PL, by the way. Nova WLax just finished its last year as an associate member in the PL, so there will be no formal ties between Nova and the league.

[boo]

I change my avatars every 3 to 4 days
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24533

OK. I was hoping for a permanent convert!!!!

~~Boo

[Fresno St. Alum]

UC Davis is my favorite FCS team.

1.UCD
2.NDSU
3.CCU

[bison137]

Villanova is not exactly increasing its ties with the PL, by the way. Nova WLax just finished its last year as an associate member in the PL, so there will be no formal ties between Nova and the league.


I believe Villanova's last year as a league member in women's lacrosse was 2005-06.

[Go...gate]

I believe Villanova's last year as a league member in women's lacrosse was 2005-06.

Right you are. I stand corrected.

[LUHawker]

Villanova is not exactly increasing its ties with the PL, by the way. Nova WLax just finished its last year as an associate member in the PL, so there will be no formal ties between Nova and the league.

I don't believe there is anything more to it, but Villanova has been playing two PL teams a year for the past 2-3 years (Bucknell & Lehigh). I know Lehigh is on the schedule for the next 4 years, but I don't know about Bucknell.

[Go...gate]

I don't believe there is anything more to it, but Villanova has been playing two PL teams a year for the past 2-3 years (Bucknell & Lehigh). I know Lehigh is on the schedule for the next 4 years, but I don't know about Bucknell.

I think they like to play the PL - travel costs are cheap, and playing Penn, the PL schools and schools like Air Force and Rutgers looks good to VU - I just don't think they want to be in the PL.

[LUHawker]

I just don't think they want to be in the PL.

I agree that they don't want to be in the PL, but it would seem to be a better fit for them given proximity, academics and spending. VU doesn't spend the full 63 scholarships last I heard. I think a lot of their disdain for the Patriot League has to do with Coach Talley. Until last year, he had never lost to a PL team since the days of scholarship HC.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I agree that they don't want to be in the PL, but it would seem to be a better fit for them given proximity, academics and spending. VU doesn't spend the full 63 scholarships last I heard. I think a lot of their disdain for the Patriot League has to do with Coach Talley. Until last year, he had never lost to a PL team since the days of scholarship HC.

If Villanova has no desire to become a part of the Patriot League, then why are we shutting the door on teams like Marist who want to come in?

[Go...gate]

I agree that they don't want to be in the PL, but it would seem to be a better fit for them given proximity, academics and spending. VU doesn't spend the full 63 scholarships last I heard. I think a lot of their disdain for the Patriot League has to do with Coach Talley. Until last year, he had never lost to a PL team since the days of scholarship HC.

Now, that might make a difference. I had not heard this before. Any idea what they are thinking about in terms of numbers? Maybe the idea is to use a set scholarship maximum, like 32* (50%) or 47* (75% of the full allotment for FCS schools)

*rounded upward

[Go...gate]

If Villanova has no desire to become a part of the Patriot League, then why are we shutting the door on teams like Marist who want to come in?

The door is not shut, IMHO.

[LUHawker]

If Villanova has no desire to become a part of the Patriot League, then why are we shutting the door on teams like Marist who want to come in?

So LFN, you still want to battle this one out with me, huh? No thanks, let's take a pass and just acknowledge that we view Marist differently. I will say this, however. At this time, I do not see an immediate need for the PL to expand. Would it strengthen the league from a numbers standpoint? Absolutely. I, however, believe that the PL has a little time before it needs to make a move. I believe the more important move is to allow true scholarships, which I think would create new opportunities for the league. Without specifying any particular school, I think it is a mistake for the PL to take a marginal school simply for numbers. It's like a marriage in some ways and you need to carefully scrutinize your suitor in advance.

[Fresno St. Alum]

If Villanova has no desire to become a part of the Patriot League, then why are we shutting the door on teams like Marist who want to come in?


Why do you say the door is shut on Marist?

[Go...gate]

Why do you say the door is shut on Marist?

I think it would be more accurate to say that there is a significant divergence of opinons on Marist. I'm sure that there are many at Marist who feel the same ambivalence - especially among fans of their BB programs. I definitely get the impression that those fans have issues with the PL's basketball programs.

[TheValleyRaider]

Why do you say the door is shut on Marist?

He's not saying the door is shut, just wondering why others (LUHawker in particular) would be so opposed to Marist given the circumstances as he sees them.

The important thing here is that we are only about 80% sure, I think, that expansion is on the Patriot League's agenda. We think it is, and I think that's compounded by our collective desire to see the League expand and improve. LUHawker brings up a worthwhile point regarding scholarships and the possibilities they can open. It's my opinion, at least, that while scholarships are desireable to the League and the sooner we can get them the better, they are not going to be some sort cure-all for the issues facing us (at least, not the ones that could be remedied or worsened by expansion). In my opinion, the League should be looking for an All-Sports member, not just a Football affiliate. Fordham is long gone, Georgetown/W&M/Villanova are not happening. I think that makes Marist a more attractive option, and one I would be willing to go for, if expansion is truly a priority for us.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So LFN, you still want to battle this one out with me, huh? No thanks, let's take a pass and just acknowledge that we view Marist differently. I will say this, however. At this time, I do not see an immediate need for the PL to expand. Would it strengthen the league from a numbers standpoint? Absolutely. I, however, believe that the PL has a little time before it needs to make a move. I believe the more important move is to allow true scholarships, which I think would create new opportunities for the league. Without specifying any particular school, I think it is a mistake for the PL to take a marginal school simply for numbers. It's like a marriage in some ways and you need to carefully scrutinize your suitor in advance.

This point of view is fine. But then you deep-six your own argument by saying that Villanova isn't interested in joining not because of scholarships, but because coach Talley has a deep-seated disdain for the PL. How would scholarships help that?

Would "true" scholarships allow us to snag a William & Mary? Never. A Richmond? The slim possibility exists, but only in football. Would it allow us to grab a better school 10-15 years down the line? Perhaps. But which school? Are we going to wait around for the CAA to break up, if ever? Are we waiting for Johns Hopkins, Amherst, or Williams to see the error of their D-III ways? For that matter, are we waiting for FBS Army and Navy to come to their senses? Are we waiting for BU to resume football? Let's face it, these things are unlikely to happen soon - and I don't see any other good option.

Where I vehemently disagree with you is the immediate need for expansion. Leagues always need to be looking for expansion, and with the special nature of the Patriot League (private high-academic schools) we need to work harder at it than other regional leagues since the threshold for "admittance" is high. Furthermore, let's say Georgetown goes to the non-scholly conference this June and says that they're no longer interested in the Patriot League's grant-in-aid model and want to return to the MAAC or a new non-scholly league. What do we do? Limp by with six members, putting the autobid in deep jeopardy? Grab an emergency member to get to seven? (Who would it be, if not Marist? Stony Brook? Duquesne? LaSalle, for Heavens' sakes?) It's not a very "safe" place to be.

You propose scholarships as the key to "new opportunities". Yet I don't see any "new opportunities" opened up by that move, whereas I see Marist as a "new opportunity" that should be explored - you say it shouldn't, and we should wait and see what happens 10-15 years down the line. I say we don't have the luxury to wait for some unknown situation down the line. Isn't that been the source of the league's troubles from Day 1 - waiting-and-seeing while Fordham drops out in most sports, Towson leaves, and other schools threaten to bolt?

[Fresno St. Alum]

I also heard some of you guys talking about VMI as a full member. Does the Patriot expand to 9 or 10 if they expand.

[Go...gate]

I also heard some of you guys talking about VMI as a full member. Does the Patriot expand to 9 or 10 if they expand.

If we had a choice between VMI and Marist, IMO, we would take VMI.