Should Steve Garvey Be In The Hall Of Fame

[poly51]

Steve Garvey made an appearance in San Luis Obispo this weekend and the local newspaper was asking the question should he be in the Hall of Fame. What do you think?

1974 National League Most Valuable Player.

National League's Iron Man - Holds NL consecutive games played record at 1,207 straight games.

10-time All Star selection, including eight straight (1974-1981).

Hit .300 seven times and finished with a .294 career average with 2,599 hits.

Led the NL in hits twice, collected 200 hits or more six times in seven seasons.

In 1974, became the ONLY player ever elected as an All-Star Game starter as a write-in candidate. Garvey earned the MVP Award in that game and later won another MVP in the the 1978 mid-summer classic.

Won four straight Gold Glove awards (1974-1977) and set a ML record with his career .996 fielding percentage at first base.

The ONLY player in MLB history to record an errorless season at first base (1984).

Set a MLB record for first baseman by playing 193 straight games without committing an error.

Drove in 100 runs five times, including four straight years (1977-1980).

One of the greatest clutch, post season players ever. Hit .300 or better in eight of his 11 post-season series. Hit .389 with four homers and seven RBI in the four-game 1978 NLCS win. Hit 10 home runs in the NLCS (a record at the time) and hit .338 with 11 homers, 31 RBI and 32 runs scored in 55 post-season contests. Played best when it mattered most.

Hit one of baseball's most memorable home runs, the famous game-winning home run in Game Four of the 1984 NLCS. The blast itself, combined with the huge team momentum and morale shifts that it caused, lifted the Padres into the deciding fifth game and ultimately to the team's first ever NL Pennant and World Series appearance. Garvey drove in five runs in all.

Won 1978 and 1984 NLCS MVP Awards. Team MVP of the 1974 NLCS (award not official until 1977).

Garvey led or tied for the team lead in batting average and total hits (among team's regulars) in an amazing eight out of 11 post-season series.

Led NL in Games six times (1977-78, 1980-82, 1985).

[AZGrizFan]

yes. For all the reasons you stated above. In a non-steroid era, to boot. xthumbsupx xthumbsupx

[UNHWildCats]

only if Jim Rice gets in too.

[grizband]

...and Burt Blyleven xthumbsupx

[RadMann]

Garvey was very good and borderline for the HOF. I'm biased as a lifetime O's fan, but the Hall of Fame inductees just don't get any better than these two entering this year. Two great players and representatives of the game....

http://images.usatoday.com/sports/_photos/2007/01/09/ripken-gwynn-large.jpg

[Mr. C]

As a lifelong Dodger fan, I would have to say a big NO. Garvey had his moments, but if you dig a little deeper into his stats, you find some serious holes. Look at his on-base percentage for one thing (.329). He very seldom walked and his power numbers, outside of his 33 homers in 1977, were pretty weak for a first baseman. His lifetime OPS is a pedestrian .623. Garvey is one of the most charasmatic athletes I've ever met, but he was absolutely hated by most of his teammates because of his phony image. In breaking down Garvey as a defensive player, he was a horrendous third baseman, with one of the worst arms I've ever seen from a Major League infielder. It was so bad, he was finally switched to first base in 1973. He was exceptional at picking bounced throws, but despite his four Gold Gloves and leading the league in fielding percentage five times, he was somewhat limited in range and would play very conservatively, because he didn't have faith in his arm. He was a very good player, but not of Hall of Fame caliber. As much as I hate to say it, Garvey was overrated.

The Dodger first baseman who deserves to be in the Hall of Fame is Gil Hodges, who was one of the greatest players of his era and was head and shoulders above Garvey. Hodges at one time had hit more HRs than any right-handed hitter in NL history and was one of the best fielding first basemen ever to play. Hodges has the MOST votes of any player in baseball history not to be in the Hall of Fame. I'm a little biased, considering he was a teammate of my father's during WWII in Hawaii, but Hodges was truly a great player and team leader. He was also a great manager, who led the New York Mets to the 1969 world championship. He would have been one of the all-time great managers if a heart attack hadn't cut him down at such a young age.

Some other guys I'd throw in would be Ron Santo, Bert Blyleven, Tommy John, Jim Kaat & Luis Tiant (not my exhaustive list on this subject).

[Eyes of Old Main]

Rice... Yes.
Garvey... Almost, but no.
Blyleven... No.

[UNHWildCats]

I agree Gil Hodges should be in the HOF.

[Eyes of Old Main]

I'll agree to Gil Hodges and Ron Santo, too.

I'm just not a fan of letting in players that accumulated stats over long periods of time with no periods of dominance. To me, that applies to Blyleven, Kaat, and among the upcoming bunch, Palmeiro.

[Mr. C]

I'll agree to Gil Hodges and Ron Santo, too.

I'm just not a fan of letting in players that accumulated stats over long periods of time with no periods of dominance. To me, that applies to Blyleven, Kaat, and among the upcoming bunch, Palmeiro.
Blyleven was a very dominant pitcher. He just played on some bad teams that kept him from winning 300 games (all 300-game winners are in the HOF). He had the best right-handed curve ball I have ever seen (Sandy Koufax would be my pick for the best left-handed curve). Blyleven helped Pittsburgh win the 1979 World Series and had a ton of shutouts.

Tommy John not only belongs for winning almost 300 games. He also belongs for the surgical procedure he helped start that has saved tons of players their careers.

Jim Kaat not only won nearly 300 games, he was probably the greatest fielding pitcher in baseball history (you could also make a case from Greg Maddox) and did a nice job as a lefty set-up man late in his career. He won as many as 25 games in one season and was the star pitcher on the Minnesota Twins teams that won the AL pennant in 1965, almost won it again in 1967 and captured divisional titles in 1969 and 1970. People who only remember him as a finesse-throwing reliever don't realize he was a hard thrower and one of the best pitchers in the AL during most of the 1960s. He was out-dueled by Koufax in Game Seven of the 1965 World Series, 2-0, but could have easily won that game with a couple of breaks and he actually beat Koufax in Game Two of the 1965 World Series.

People can make a strong case for all three of these pitchers (I think all three belong) in the Hall of Fame. It wasn't just longevity for these guys.

[NoCoDanny]

He should be in the celebrity bill fishing hall of fame.

[Cleets]

steve gets in only if Marcus gets in first...

[Marcus Garvey]

What about Davey Concepcion? His offensive statistics are eerily similar to Ozzie Smith's. He played in more World Series than Ozzie and won 2, as oppossed to the Wizzard's one. He was the "standard" for defensive excelence at Shortstop prior to Smith. As Davey's career came to an end, Ozzie took his place as the best SS in baseball.

Why is Ozzie in the HOF and not Davey? P.R. baby. Ozzie's prime came in the 80's with cable outlets like ESPN and CNN showing highlight reels of his amazing plays.

[andy7171]

Has anyone mentioned "The Hawk" not being in? He should definately be in!

[Marcus Garvey]

Has anyone mentioned "The Hawk" not being in? He should definately be in!

Going to have to disagree with you there. He had some good years, and some good power, but his numbers are comparable to Harold Baines and Dave Parker. A solid player, but not HOF material.

[BigApp]

Mr C, Gil Hodges totalled 15 more career errors than Garvey in 177 fewer games.

How do you think Mike Schmidt was as a fielder? What about as a post-season hitter?

[Go...gate]

...and Burt Blyleven xthumbsupx

....and Gil Hodges. IMHO, he was a much stronger player than Garvey.

[NoCoDanny]

Any discussion of Dave Concepcion should by default also incluse discussion of Onix Concepcion.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/players/pics/onix_concepcion_autograph.jpg

[BigApp]

besides, if Tony Perez is HOF worthy, there is NO way Garvey is/was 'overrated'.

[poly51]

What about Davey Concepcion? His offensive statistics are eerily similar to Ozzie Smith's. He played in more World Series than Ozzie and won 2, as oppossed to the Wizzard's one. He was the "standard" for defensive excelence at Shortstop prior to Smith. As Davey's career came to an end, Ozzie took his place as the best SS in baseball.

Why is Ozzie in the HOF and not Davey? P.R. baby. Ozzie's prime came in the 80's with cable outlets like ESPN and CNN showing highlight reels of his amazing plays.


But Ozzie is an FCS school graduate. Cal Poly

[poly51]

besides, if Tony Perez is HOF worthy, there is NO way Garvey is/was 'overrated'.

Garvey does hold the National League record for consecutive games played at over 1200. He also preformed very well in the post season and in All Star games.

[proasu89]

As a lifelong Dodger fan, I would have to say a big NO. Garvey had his moments, but if you dig a little deeper into his stats, you find some serious holes. Look at his on-base percentage for one thing (.329). He very seldom walked and his power numbers, outside of his 33 homers in 1977, were pretty weak for a first baseman. His lifetime OPS is a pedestrian .623. Garvey is one of the most charasmatic athletes I've ever met, but he was absolutely hated by most of his teammates because of his phony image. In breaking down Garvey as a defensive player, he was a horrendous third baseman, with one of the worst arms I've ever seen from a Major League infielder. It was so bad, he was finally switched to first base in 1973. He was exceptional at picking bounced throws, but despite his four Gold Gloves and leading the league in fielding percentage five times, he was somewhat limited in range and would play very conservatively, because he didn't have faith in his arm. He was a very good player, but not of Hall of Fame caliber. As much as I hate to say it, Garvey was overrated.

The Dodger first baseman who deserves to be in the Hall of Fame is Gil Hodges, who was one of the greatest players of his era and was head and shoulders above Garvey. Hodges at one time had hit more HRs than any right-handed hitter in NL history and was one of the best fielding first basemen ever to play. Hodges has the MOST votes of any player in baseball history not to be in the Hall of Fame. I'm a little biased, considering he was a teammate of my father's during WWII in Hawaii, but Hodges was truly a great player and team leader. He was also a great manager, who led the New York Mets to the 1969 world championship. He would have been one of the all-time great managers if a heart attack hadn't cut him down at such a young age.

Some other guys I'd throw in would be Ron Santo, Bert Blyleven, Tommy John, Jim Kaat & Luis Tiant (not my exhaustive list on this subject).

Well said. Coming from a Dodger fan, your observations confirm what I had believed. Probably didn't make very many errors because he took very few chances and didn't extend himself to show weaknesses and liabilities. Speaking to his teammates dislike, which should have no bearing on HOF voting, I had the opportunity to work a celebrity golf tourney for 5 years and spent some time around him. Came off as very plastic, didn't seem to genuine. Had a drop dead gorgeous blond wife though. xthumbsupx

[andy7171]

Going to have to disagree with you there. He had some good years, and some good power, but his numbers are comparable to Harold Baines and Dave Parker. A solid player, but not HOF material.
You'd be hard pressed to find someone hitting over 438 HRs with 300+ stolen bases. HR hitters were not as prevalent in the late seventies and eighties. He hit only 24 one year, but it was second most in the NL.
He was an all-star 8 times and won 8 consecutive gold gloves. A 20 year career of being a 25-25 player, deserves some recognition.

[Ivytalk]

I nominate his ex-wife, Cindy Garvey!xnodx

[B&G]

I saw a couple episodes of Cheap Seats on ESPN Classic where they showed videos of Steve Garvey's Celebrity Fishing. It was brutal. He reminded me of Judge Smales from Caddyshack.

He did have some good career numbers though and certainly deserves to be in the discussion for HOF candidacy. I think the Hall should only take definites rather than borderliners. Thus my opinion is Garvey falls short.

[Marcus Garvey]

You'd be hard pressed to find someone hitting over 438 HRs with 300+ stolen bases. HR hitters were not as prevalent in the late seventies and eighties. He hit only 24 one year, but it was second most in the NL.
He was an all-star 8 times and won 8 consecutive gold gloves. A 20 year career of being a 25-25 player, deserves some recognition.

He compiled those numbers over 21 seasons. That's an average of less than 21 HR per season. Good, but not HOF. He only hit 30 or more HR's 3 times: 1983 (32 HR), 1987 (49 HR), and 1991 (31 HR). If he had come along 10 years later, that MVP season ('87) of his would look really suspicious. He only had 3 other seasons with 25 or more HR's., and he was NOT a career 25-25 player. He did that only 3 times, the last in '83. After which, he lost a lot of his speed.
This is why he's not in the Hall. At first you think, hey, what about the Hawk? He was pretty good. But once you scrutinize his numbers you realize that he was a solid player, but not a "great" player.

You can make a much stronger argument for Dale Murphy.

[andy7171]

He compiled those numbers over 21 seasons. That's an average of less than 21 HR per season. Good, but not HOF. He only hit 30 or more HR's 3 times: 1983 (32 HR), 1987 (49 HR), and 1991 (31 HR). If he had come along 10 years later, that MVP season ('87) of his would look really suspicious. He only had 3 other seasons with 25 or more HR's., and he was NOT a career 25-25 player. He did that only 3 times, the last in '83. After which, he lost a lot of his speed.
This is why he's not in the Hall. At first you think, hey, what about the Hawk? He was pretty good. But once you scrutinize his numbers you realize that he was a solid player, but not a "great" player.

You can make a much stronger argument for Dale Murphy.
While I acknowledge that he is a border line HOF candidate, I think what people today forget is that back in the late 70's and early to mid 80's, 25 HRs was impressive. You throw out the years he hit 25 HRs, what I think you are missing is those are top 5-10 numbers for those seasons.
Also I think that fielding is take much too lightly. He was a he11 of a outfielder.

Just my 2 cents. xpeacex

[Marcus Garvey]

He was a he11 of a outfielder.


Can't disagree with that. I feel bad for those Expos fans in the late 70's/early 80's when they had Dawson, Carter and later Raines. Some damn good teams who couldn't quite make it over that hump and win a pennant.

[BigApp]

the Strike in 1981 took care of that MG

[Marcus Garvey]

the Strike in 1981 took care of that MG

Not really. Their two best years for attendance were in 1982 (2,318,292) and 1983 (2,320,651). In the strike shortened year of '81, they drew enough of an average that it would have been their 3rd highest total if it had been a full season(2,301,858).

That's not what killed the Expos. Free agency is the real culprit. Salaries got too high for them, coupled with the fact that players just didn't want to play in Montreal. French is the primary language there. While English is spoken widely throughout the city, there's no escaping French. Throw in the high Canadian tax rates and you have a very undesireable destination. The Expos trailed off in '83 and turned into a mediocre team unable to sign the players necessary to get good again quickly. Attendance dwindled to around 1.6 million. That wasn't considered too shabby then. It would rise a bit and fall a bit depending on how good or bad the team was.

The Expos attendance remained flat, while the rest of MLB experienced a boom. In the early 1970's, 1 Million in attendance was a pretty good number. By the mid 80's, 2 Million was the benchmark. By the late 90's, it became 3 Million. The Expos hovered around 1Million becaus of a management unwilling/unable to put together competitive teams. Dismantiling the team after the strike aborted season of '94 really hurt too. I can't wait for somebody to write the book detailing how MLB and Jeffery Loria conspired to drive the Expos from Montreal.

[JoltinJoe]

Thurman Munson. Back in the low octane 1970s, before the live ball and steroids, he hit .300 and drove in 100 runs for three consecutive seasons. He was the first American Leaguer to accomplish that since Ted Williams did it in eight consecutively played seasons (1939-1942; 1946-1949).

But what Munson was best at was his control and knowledge of the game. He certainly ranks as one of the finest catchers in terms of handling pitchers and calling games in the history of baseball. He was widely considered a probable future manager. He was also the most gutty and one of the most clutch performers I have ever seen.

I know, I know. The writers never vote players into the Hall of Fame on stuff like that. Skills like Thurman Munson's go right over their heads. But that's how you win World Championships.

[BigApp]

MG, what I meant was the Strike took care of their World Series aspirations...

[Mr. C]

MG, what I meant was the Strike took care of their World Series aspirations...
Actually, it was Rick Monday who took care of the Expos' World Series aspirations, with his game-winning HR in the ninth inning of the deciding game of the NLCS.

[Mr. C]

Mr C, Gil Hodges totalled 15 more career errors than Garvey in 177 fewer games.

How do you think Mike Schmidt was as a fielder? What about as a post-season hitter?
And having seen both play, I can tell you that Hodges was a much better fielder. Hodges had a stronger arm (he started his career as a catcher and then moved to third base — my father was actually the first baseman and Hodges played third base on their team in Hawaii) and MUCH better range. He was also incredibly graceful at 1B. Sometimes players make more errors when they reach more balls.

Mike Schmidt was a terrific fielder, one of the best I've ever seen at 3B. Overall, I think Schmidt is the greatest 3B in the history of baseball.

[Marcus Garvey]

MG, what I meant was the Strike took care of their World Series aspirations...

The '94 strike you mean? Because you typed 1981.

[andy7171]

Mike Schmidt was a terrific fielder, one of the best I've ever seen at 3B. Overall, I think Schmidt is the greatest 3B in the history of baseball.
Offensively, yes.
Defensively, I have to give it to Brooksie!

[Marcus Garvey]

Offensively, yes.
Defensively, I have to give it to Brooksie!

Ask 100 people who was the greatest 3B of all time, and 50 will say "Brooks Robinson" and 50 will say "Mike Schmidt!"

Both were great fielders. Brooksie may have been a bit better. Schmidty was definitely the better "slugger."

[andy7171]

Ask 100 people who was the greatest 3B of all time, and 50 will say "Brooks Robinson" and 50 will say "Mike Schmidt!"

Both were great fielders. Brooksie may have been a bit better. Schmidty was definitely the better "slugger."
Don't I know it! I grew up in So. NJ during the late 70's and early 80's. I was Phillies through and through. xthumbsupx My family eventually settled down back in Maryland when I was 13 and I've been an Orioles fan since. If I even mention Schmidt as argueably one of the best 3B, I get sneered at! xnodx

[BigApp]

The '94 strike you mean? Because you typed 1981.

yeah, duhhhhhhhxoopsx

[BigApp]

Schmidt made about 150-200 more errors than Garvey...

Again, if Tony Perez is HOF material...

[Mr. C]

Offensively, yes.
Defensively, I have to give it to Brooksie!

I was talking about OVERALL. No one was better fielding his position than Brooks Robinson (though Schmidt, Graig Nettles, Clete and Ken Boyer and Buddy Bell to name several from my lifetime) were pretty good with the glove. For many years, Pie Traynor was considered the best 3B of all time, but that view changed when Schmidt came along. There are fewer 3B in the Hall of Fame than just about any position. Brooks Robinson was somewhat mediocre with the bat. He had a lot of ups and downs. There were MVP-type seasons and then some where he barely hit his weight.

My best at each position would be (overall and then defensively):

C Too close to call among guys like Roy Campanella, Yogi Berra, Mike Piazza (best offensively, hands down), Mickey Cochrane/Johnny Bench usually gets the nod defensively, but you should also consider Ivan Rodriguez, Jim Sundberg and Steve Yeager
1B Lou Gehrig/Wes Parker
2B Joe Morgan/Bill Mazeroski
SS Alex Rodriguez/Ozzie Smith or Omar Vizquel
3B Mike Schmidt/Brooks Robinson
LF Barry Bonds (pre-steroids)/Carl Yastzemski
CF Willie Mays/Willie Mays
RF Babe Ruth/Roberto Clemente
P Sandy Koufax as the lefty, Walter Johnson as the righty and Mariano Rivera as the reliever/Jim Kaat and Greg Maddox as my lefty-righty duo as fielders.

[Marcus Garvey]

Schmidt made about 150-200 more errors than Garvey...

Apples and oranges dude. Garvey was predominately a 1B. In 2059 games at that postion, he had a fielding average of .992. Shmidt played 157 games at 1B with an average of .992

At 3B, Schmidt had a .955 average over 2212 games, versus Garvey's .922 over 191 games.

The position of third baseman will commit more errors. A 1B rarely throws the ball when fielding a grounder. He mostly catches balls thrown to him. The majority of errors on throws to 1st base are committed by the thrower, not the 1st baseman. Also, third base has the longest throw to 1st, making it a more difficult postion.

You simply can't compare Garvey and Schmidt's fielding.

[Mr. C]

Apples and oranges dude. Garvey was predominately a 1B. In 2059 games at that postion, he had a fielding average of .992. Shmidt played 157 games at 1B with an average of .992

At 3B, Schmidt had a .955 average over 2212 games, versus Garvey's .922 over 191 games.

The position of third baseman will commit more errors. A 1B rarely throws the ball when fielding a grounder. He mostly catches balls thrown to him. The majority of errors on throws to 1st base are committed by the thrower, not the 1st baseman. Also, third base has the longest throw to 1st, making it a more difficult postion.

You simply can't compare Garvey and Schmidt's fielding.
Yes you can. Garvey was one of the WORST 3B I ever saw and Schmidt was one of the best defensively.

[Marcus Garvey]

Yes you can. Garvey was one of the WORST 3B I ever saw and Schmidt was one of the best defensively.

Based on Mr. C's analysis, I think this case is close! I rule in favor of Mike Schmidt as Steve Garvey clearly lacked the opposable thumb needed to throw a baseball!

[BigApp]

The position of third baseman will commit more errors.

I am fully aware of this from personal experience.

Schmidt was also a career .236 postseason hitter too, with an OBP of .304 and SLG of .386.
Garvey postseason stats =.338 postseason hitter, with an On-Base of .361 and SLG of .550.

Not even a discussion.

If Tony Perez is a HOF'er...

[Marcus Garvey]

I am fully aware of this from personal experience.

Schmidt was also a career .236 postseason hitter too, with an OBP of .304 and SLG of .386.
Garvey postseason stats =.338 postseason hitter, with an On-Base of .361 and SLG of .550.

Not even a discussion.

If Tony Perez is a HOF'er...

Ernie Banks had a big fat .000 batting average in postseason batting!!!
Wait, I mean he batted "infinity."
If you rated players solely on post season, then Barry Bonds sucks balls and Johnny Podres is one of the greatest pitchers.
Oh, and Ted Williams was .200/.333/.200. But if you asked Teddy Ballgame, it was Johnny Pesky's fault that the Red Sox lost the '46 series. Barry Bonds should take note. Williams was a gigantic d!ckhead during his playing days, but he's been image softened over the years. There's still hope for Barry.

[poly51]

Based on Mr. C's analysis, I think this case is close! I rule in favor of Mike Schmidt as Steve Garvey clearly lacked the opposable thumb needed to throw a baseball!

While it is true Garvey would do almost anything to avoid the throw to 2nd base and would go 1st base for the sure out instead he was probably one of the best at digging out bad throws to 1st. There is no way to count the errors he saved for Cey, Russell and Lopes. I would bet he saved a lot more errors for them than he avoided by not throwing.

[RadMann]

Brooks was my favorite player as a kid, and I rank him equal with Schmidt overall, although Brooks was the O's and Schmidt was sort of a part of the Phillies. The O's fans worshiped Brooks whereas the Phillies fans did not take to Schmidt much. I grew up in Delaware listening to almost every O's game on the radio. Where I lived in Newark, we straddled O's and Phillies territory, although the Phillies fans outnumbered O's fans in northern Delaware. Being a young kid and being an O's fan could not be beat in baseball terms when I was young at that time. The team stayed together over the years (unlike teams today) and the team was full of very reliable, dependable players. I came in at the tale end of one era, and enjoyed the O's all through the 70's as a kid. Freshman year at UD was great. My dorm roommate was a Phillies fan and he was in my face after the Phils won game one of the World Series, but the O's came back to sweep the rest of the games. Nothing in the fan realm for me has ever come close to being an O's fan back in the day except almost UD football. Man I get nostalgic just thinking about it. Baseball now is nothing like it was unfortunately with AL-NL play, teams that change each year, etc. Darn, I'm starting to sound old!! ;)