Jacksonville Drops Football

[DFW HOYA]

https://judolphins.com/news/2019/12/3/jacksonville-university-discontinues-football.aspx

[UNHWildcat18]

Adios, they wont be missed really.

[JayJ79]

so JU played in the "non-scholarship" PFL, but now that the football program is discontinued all the (former) football players are now offered full tuition scholarships if they choose to stay there. (not complaining or anything. it is a classy move after a difficult decision. It just seemed as kind of a contrast.)

[SactoHornetFan]

so JU played in the "non-scholarship" PFL, but now that the football program is discontinued all the (former) football players are now offered full tuition scholarships if they choose to stay there.

Plus the fact, since all football athletes pay tuition at $38,140 per year (https://www.ju.edu/financialservices/tuition/undergraduate.php), at 95 athletes, that's $3.6 million that the university will now lose. How are they going to redirect those monies when you just lost about 100 students at a 4,000 student university? Those funds just don't magically stay...they will disappear.

[Laker]

I always feel sad when a school drops football.

[Baron Sardonicus]

I guess we can put those Big South rumors to rest?

[Blue Waves Crest]

I always feel sad when a school drops football.

Always, it signifies the failure of a vision. Lots of people are affected


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[Blue Waves Crest]

A couple thoughts here:

1) obviously, sad for them to lose the sport. Even if it didn’t make fiscal sense there’s guys who poured blood sweat and tears into a program that now doesn’t exist

2) I think this will really help their lacrosse team, they already have a foothold as the southernmost team in D1 and are an early-season destination for the blue bloods looking for a warm weather start to their season. If they found something that works for them, then that’s also good even tho it’s not football. More power to them for being creative


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[FCS_pwns_FBS]

The University and Jacksonville Athletics, with input from experienced, independent consultants, arrived at this decision after a data-driven evaluation of Division I intercollegiate athletics.

Meaning the administration wanted to kill it all along.

[CHIP72]

With the way the Jaguars have played for most of the last 20 years, including this season, it’s about time!

Oh, you’re talking about the University of Jacksonville. Well, at least people won’t confuse them and Jacksonville State anymore! [emoji6]


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[Schism55]

Always, it signifies the failure of a vision. Lots of people are affected


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Well said sir. Sad day for JU.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Meaning the administration wanted to kill it all along.

You beat me to it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If local papers still existed, some intrepid young reporter could issue an FOIA request to see exactly what "data" and "all the available facts" they used to come to this conclusion. I mean, we know the president made it their personal crusade to discontinue the football program. But don't let them get away with the line of bull**** that a single "fact" was used to make this decision.

[aceinthehole]

According to FBSchedules.com, Dartmouth will be looking for a new opponent at home on 9/19/2020.

https://fbschedules.com/ncaa/jacksonville/

[PAllen]

Meaning the administration wanted to kill it all along.

and don't have the balls to stand behind their own decision.

[PAllen]

If local papers still existed, some intrepid young reporter could issue an FOIA request to see exactly what "data" and "all the available facts" they used to come to this conclusion. I mean, we know the president made it their personal crusade to discontinue the football program. But don't let them get away with the line of bull**** that a single "fact" was used to make this decision.

Isn't Jacksonville a private institution?

[Mocs123]

Wow! It was just a few years ago that Kewin Bell had them winning 9-10 games a year and in the running for the Patriot League championship. I'd heard he left because of a differing of opinion with the administration about going scholarship.

Why would a school that plays non scholarship football drop their program. If you assume you have ~90 kids that go to school there to play football that otherwise wouldn't go there, that's over $3M per year in lost tuition. I would think that tuition largely offset the cost of a Pioneer League program.

[PAllen]

Plus the fact, since all football athletes pay tuition at $38,140 per year (https://www.ju.edu/financialservices/tuition/undergraduate.php), at 95 athletes, that's $3.6 million that the university will now lose. How are they going to redirect those monies when you just lost about 100 students at a 4,000 student university? Those funds just don't magically stay...they will disappear.

It's called: How do we prevent the impending lawsuit?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The other aspect of this is that it will affect their male enrollment, because after all, you're losing 100ish male tuition-paying students. This will affect their male/female ratio and make their Title IX ratio worse... and might require more female sport slots or sports to make up for it.

[ElCid]

Isn't Jacksonville a private institution?

Yup.

On a different issue, I wonder if this may happen more in the near future. Sure some teams have cranked up lately, but considering the investment needed to maintain a team, I am surprised it doesn't happen more often. Success brings money, but lots of teams have minimal fan bases and minimal money. Lots of administrators might start eying that money to get a bigger bang for those bucks.

[FargoBison]

Seems like they made a push to go scholarship and it flopped, then they kind of just gave up altogether and now they have made it official.

Probably good news for the Pioneer....they can dump JU and get UST, making the league more compact.

[SactoHornetFan]

It's called: How do we prevent the impending lawsuit?

What lawsuit? This will be a decision they will rue.

Out here, nobody really ever thinks of Pacific anymore. They dropped football 25 years ago this next year. Their enrollment is still around what it was around 1995: about 6K undergrads. Other than a couple of years of Men's Hoops winning the Big West, UOP is a forgotten university in the West. They thought all that money would go to other sports like Field Hockey...and surprise, they just folded that program last year after they tore down old Stagg Stadium to put in a new field hockey pitch.

UOP: no football, out of sight, out of mind.

[ElCid]

What lawsuit? This will be a decision they will rue.

Out here, nobody really ever thinks of Pacific anymore. They dropped football 25 years ago this next year. Their enrollment is still around what it was around 1995: about 6K undergrads. Other than a couple of years of Men's Hoops winning the Big West, UOP is a forgotten university in the West. They thought all that money would go to other sports like Field Hockey...and surprise, they just folded that program last year after they tore down old Stagg Stadium to put in a new field hockey pitch.

UOP: no football, out of sight, out of mind.

Hmm. Outside of football fans, specifically FCS fans, and not even all of them, I am not sure anyone is going to notice that Jacksonville dropped it. Not sure football is that critical in EVERY case. Some, but not always. If Harvard dropped football, would it really matter? If NDSU did, I am pretty sure it would relegate them back to national obscurity, no offense to the Bison, but football success has brought them their national publicity, to the average Joe. I bring them up to people who still have never heard of them...non football fans. And of course, there is every shade of impact between those examples. But I think you are correct about Pacific. The only reason I have ever heard of them is due to football.

[Sycamore62]

What lawsuit? This will be a decision they will rue.

Out here, nobody really ever thinks of Pacific anymore. They dropped football 25 years ago this next year. Their enrollment is still around what it was around 1995: about 6K undergrads. Other than a couple of years of Men's Hoops winning the Big West, UOP is a forgotten university in the West. They thought all that money would go to other sports like Field Hockey...and surprise, they just folded that program last year after they tore down old Stagg Stadium to put in a new field hockey pitch.

UOP: no football, out of sight, out of mind.

What about Wichita State? Jakdsonville could take that budget, find the money to replace the football player's tuition bump all that money into a coach's salary and then maybe they could dominate a conference then get into a new G5 conference then disappear.

[Derby City Duke]

The other aspect of this is that it will affect their male enrollment, because after all, you're losing 100ish male tuition-paying students. This will affect their male/female ratio and make their Title IX ratio worse... and might require more female sport slots or sports to make up for it.

Just the opposite; there will now be a higher percentage of female athletes in the athletics department as compared to student population. Won't need to add any women's sports.

[Pinnum]

Plus the fact, since all football athletes pay tuition at $38,140 per year (https://www.ju.edu/financialservices/tuition/undergraduate.php), at 95 athletes, that's $3.6 million that the university will now lose. How are they going to redirect those monies when you just lost about 100 students at a 4,000 student university? Those funds just don't magically stay...they will disappear.


Jacksonville students are not paying $38k a year in tuition. That is the sticker price. Very few are actually paying that.

The school will not lose that money. Unless you think they won't be able to fill those seats that were previously filled with football players. They were spending $1M a year (the cost of running the program) to attract football players to the school. They can now fill those seats with non-football players and will be able to spend less than $1M a year to attract those non-football playing students.

[Pinnum]

What about Wichita State? Jakdsonville could take that budget, find the money to replace the football player's tuition bump all that money into a coach's salary and then maybe they could dominate a conference then get into a new G5 conference then disappear.


This seems like it might be their plan. Going in big in basketball.

https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20191118/ju-set-to-unveil-plans-for-new-hoops-practice-facility-near-swisher-gym

[ElCid]

This seems like it might be their plan. Going in big in basketball.

https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20191118/ju-set-to-unveil-plans-for-new-hoops-practice-facility-near-swisher-gym

I think they are big in rowing as well.🤔. Pretty sure that doesn't generate any revenue though.

[Derby City Duke]

Plus the fact, since all football athletes pay tuition at $38,140 per year (https://www.ju.edu/financialservices/tuition/undergraduate.php), at 95 athletes, that's $3.6 million that the university will now lose. How are they going to redirect those monies when you just lost about 100 students at a 4,000 student university? Those funds just don't magically stay...they will disappear.

I'd be very surprised if the athletes were actually paying the full $38K. Most schools that don't offer athletic scholarships (PFL, D-III) put together significant aid packages together for their athletes, using grants and academic/foundation scholarships to get to the tuition number. I suspect there is also some student loan debt involved as well. Probably not that big a hit on tuition dollars that they won't make up by admitting additional students next year.

Good on the university for putting the students who wish to remain at JU on fully academic scholarship.

[Sycamore62]

I think they are big in rowing as well.樂. Pretty sure that doesn't generate any revenue though.

that's the only reason ive heard of the school.

[Sycamore62]

someone should have a headline like "Jacksonville had a football team"

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What about Wichita State? Jakdsonville could take that budget, find the money to replace the football player's tuition bump all that money into a coach's salary and then maybe they could dominate a conference then get into a new G5 conference then disappear.

Pretty sure Jacksonville doesn't have a Koch brothers sugar daddy to make this happen.

Also:

"Since the 2015-16 season, after previously playing at the costly and spacious downtown Veterans Memorial Arena, the Dolphins have played all basketball games in 1,350-seat Swisher Gym, currently the smallest facility in the A-Sun Conference. Swisher, built in 1953, has undergone several facelifts and updates in the past four years."

Nothing says G5 like a 1,350 capacity gym! xlolx

[Sycamore62]

Nothing says G5 like a 1,350 capacity gym! xlolx

maybe more like G4

[Sader87]

Somewhere, Artis Gilmore sheds a tear....:(

Actually a former high school hoop player of mine, who later played in the NFL, Jordan Todman, was coaching at Jacksonville this I believe...haven't spoken to him in a bit, so no inside info on the situation here.

[mvfcfan]

so JU played in the "non-scholarship" PFL, but now that the football program is discontinued all the (former) football players are now offered full tuition scholarships if they choose to stay there. (not complaining or anything. it is a classy move after a difficult decision. It just seemed as kind of a contrast.)

From what I have heard most PFL schools offer most of their FB players academic scholarships instead of athletic. It is just a legal way to get around Title IX and still allows them to have a D1 football team.

[Baron Sardonicus]

They've had success in basketball (1970 national runner-up). However, JU is way too small to be invited to a power conference.

[Baron Sardonicus]

Seems like they made a push to go scholarship and it flopped, then they kind of just gave up altogether and now they have made it official.

Probably good news for the Pioneer....they can dump JU and get UST, making the league more compact.


From what I have heard most PFL schools offer most of their FB players academic scholarships instead of athletic. It is just a legal way to get around Title IX and still allows them to have a D1 football team.

No. LOL

[Schism55]

I think they are big in rowing as well.樂. Pretty sure that doesn't generate any revenue though.
That's an insult to pretty sure lol. Guarantee rowing is a never ending money pit.

[Bison56]

With the way the Jaguars have played for most of the last 20 years, including this season, it’s about time!

Oh, you’re talking about the University of Jacksonville. Well, at least people won’t confuse them and Jacksonville State anymore! [emoji6]


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Now there will only be 1 terrible team with Jacksonville in its name

[DFW HOYA]

They've had success in basketball (1970 national runner-up). However, JU is way too small to be invited to a power conference.

They had Artis Gilmore in basketball, that's why. Their last week in the AP Top 25 was Dec. 17, 1974.

[DFW HOYA]

They've had success in basketball (1970 national runner-up). However, JU is way too small to be invited to a power conference.

They had Artis Gilmore in basketball, that's why. Their last week in the AP Top 25 was Dec. 17, 1974.


That's an insult to pretty sure lol. Guarantee rowing is a never ending money pit.

On the contrary--rowing is a net gain to schools because the overall rowing community tends to be very active in fundraising.

[Schism55]

Now there will only be 1 terrible team with Jacksonville in its name
Oh man I knew someone would post this xsmiley_wix

[PAllen]

What lawsuit? This will be a decision they will rue.

Out here, nobody really ever thinks of Pacific anymore. They dropped football 25 years ago this next year. Their enrollment is still around what it was around 1995: about 6K undergrads. Other than a couple of years of Men's Hoops winning the Big West, UOP is a forgotten university in the West. They thought all that money would go to other sports like Field Hockey...and surprise, they just folded that program last year after they tore down old Stagg Stadium to put in a new field hockey pitch.

UOP: no football, out of sight, out of mind.

The almost inevitable lawsuit from a player that they were promised a playing opportunity during recruiting... Blah,blah, blah. Give them a free ride and they don't have much to complain about. Plus, that's not real money anyway, it's just moving some numbers around in the books.

[GoBlueHens83]

Well at least Delaware won't have to worry about suffering another embarrassing loss to them.

In all seriousness, it sucks to see an FCS school drop football.

[clenz]

What about Wichita State? Jakdsonville could take that budget, find the money to replace the football player's tuition bump all that money into a coach's salary and then maybe they could dominate a conference then get into a new G5 conference then disappear.
It wasn't cutting football that propelled WSU basketball. It was/is Koch Brothers money

[JSUSoutherner]

Well, at least people won’t confuse them and Jacksonville State anymore!

Yes they will.

[Sycamore62]

It wasn't cutting football that propelled WSU basketball. It was/is Koch Brothers money

i couldnt type in my whiny voice. I was being sarcastic

[walliver]

I read their entire announcement and it consisted of a lot of words and said very little. I got the vibe from the announcement that the institution was reinventing itself, and that football was no longer part of their vision. I doubt is was a money thing as it seems like every D2 and NAIA school in the south is trying to start football.

They aren't going to go far in advancing their other sports in the A-Sun. I wonder if they will eventually de-emphasize athletics and move to D3 before it's all over.

[Catbooster]

Yes they will.
Jacksonville State is dropping football?

[caribbeanhen]

Seems like they made a push to go scholarship and it flopped, then they kind of just gave up altogether and now they have made it official.

Probably good news for the Pioneer....they can dump JU and get UST, making the league more compact.

yep, when they went Triple Option this year was a big clue.....

and at 38K a year they can suck balls

[Baron Sardonicus]

With Presbyterian...and probably STU...joining the Pioneer in 2021, the league was planning on having 12 members: a nice, even number. Regional scheduling perfection.

Now it looks like there will be 11 members in '21. About as useful as an 11th toe.

[maine612]

There have been rumors here in Minnesota that St. Thomas (D3) is making the move the PFL. They'd need special wavers to make it happen fast but they have been booted from the MIAC and are actively looking for a D1 home.

612

[bonarae]

They aren't going to go far in advancing their other sports in the A-Sun. I wonder if they will eventually de-emphasize athletics and move to D3 before it's all over.

Birmingham Southern, you remember? They started football after moving down.

I wonder if I notice a pattern here - all the ex-FCS / I-AA programs who dropped football in the past 30 years or so are due to the following reasons:

1. California de-emphasis on football - public in particular (as of this writing, only 6 UC/CSU remain playing, down from around 25+ in the 1980s)
2. Greedy presidents (LFN, I echo you) - Northeastern I'm not so sure with. BU and Hofstra, yes, both were due to greedy presidents.
3. Coaches / presidents disagreements on how football is run at the school (this was probably the kicker for Jacksonville here)

[JayJ79]

With Presbyterian...and probably STU...joining the Pioneer in 2021, the league was planning on having 12 members: a nice, even number. Regional scheduling perfection.

Now it looks like there will be 11 members in '21. About as useful as an 11th toe.
anything above 9 is too many anyway. If you aren't playing every other conference-mate each year, there are too many schools.
why is 11 any worse than 12?

[BEAR]

Don't know if this was posted already but twitter is a-buzz with all the Jacksonville kids announcing their transfer portal intentions.

[Son of Eli]

Dartmouth will now need to find a replacement for Jacksonville on 9/19. For those who say the Ivy League doesn’t play anybody here’s your chance.

[Baron Sardonicus]

There have been rumors here in Minnesota that St. Thomas (D3) is making the move the PFL. They'd need special wavers to make it happen fast but they have been booted from the MIAC and are actively looking for a D1 home.

Not a rumor, so much as a question of whether the waiver is approved. Confidence is high that it will be approved. The Summit has already invited them. The Tommies have already said they want to join the PFL, and the PFL will take anyone.

[Laker]

What lawsuit? This will be a decision they will rue.

Out here, nobody really ever thinks of Pacific anymore. They dropped football 25 years ago this next year. Their enrollment is still around what it was around 1995: about 6K undergrads. Other than a couple of years of Men's Hoops winning the Big West, UOP is a forgotten university in the West. They thought all that money would go to other sports like Field Hockey...and surprise, they just folded that program last year after they tore down old Stagg Stadium to put in a new field hockey pitch.

UOP: no football, out of sight, out of mind.

The Gophers played Pacific at the Metrodome- I think it was the last year that they had football. I was going to go that night but had a bad sore throat. Wished that I would have- I could have added the Tigers to the my list of team seen.

I remember when Wichita had football too. And the plane crash.

[UAalum72]

Birmingham Southern, you remember? They started football after moving down.

I wonder if I notice a pattern here - all the ex-FCS / I-AA programs who dropped football in the past 30 years or so are due to the following reasons:

1. California de-emphasis on football - public in particular (as of this writing, only 6 UC/CSU remain playing, down from around 25+ in the 1980s)
2. Greedy presidents (LFN, I echo you) - Northeastern I'm not so sure with. BU and Hofstra, yes, both were due to greedy presidents.
3. Coaches / presidents disagreements on how football is run at the school (this was probably the kicker for Jacksonville here)
Might be in #3, but the seven Catholic, mostly small colleges in the MAAC who tried to keep the D-III model after the Dayton rule - Iona, LaSalle, Fairfield, Siena, St Peter’s, Canisius, and St John’s - dropped from about 1999-2005. Only Duquesne, Marist, and Georgetown remain

[Lehigh Football Nation]

2. Greedy presidents (LFN, I echo you) - Northeastern I'm not so sure with. BU and Hofstra, yes, both were due to greedy presidents.

Northeastern's president bragged about killing football a few months after pulling the plug, so yes, you can lump Joseph Aoun into the "greedy" category.

Aoun is no Silber - Silber was a special category of asshole - but Northeastern allegedly had a deal with the New England Revolution to play in a soccer-specific stadium to replace the paved parking lot they were using. I'm not sure how close a deal actually was to happening, though. Had that happened, Northeastern football would almost certainly still be around.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Dartmouth will now need to find a replacement for Jacksonville on 9/19. For those who say the Ivy League doesn’t play anybody here’s your chance.

If I had to handicap it, I'd say the odds-on favorite to replace them would be Merrimack.

[BurialGround]

I always thought they had more potential to be a good program than A-Sun and Pioneer League sister Stetson, but... we're talking about a private school with 4k students and a very small endowment, so it's not suprising.

[bulldog10jw]

Dartmouth will now need to find a replacement for Jacksonville on 9/19. For those who say the Ivy League doesn’t play anybody here’s your chance.

It's hard to believe that any worthy opponent doesn't already have a game scheduled for 9/19.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's hard to believe that any worthy opponent doesn't already have a game scheduled for 9/19.

FWIW I did figure out a possible solution, but it is contingent on St. Francis (PA) having September 19th free:

Sept 19 Dartmouth/Columbia

*Sept 19 Lehigh/SFU

Oct 24 SFU/Dartmouth

Oct 24 Columbia/Lehigh

Lehigh would switch the date of their games with Columbia (Sept 19) and SFU (October 24th). SFU/Dartmouth would replace the moved Columbia/Dartmouth game.

[Baron Sardonicus]

why is 11 any worse than 12?

The last time they had 12, scheduling was regionalized. The original thought was probably that they would bring back the PFL championship game. But that was abandoned when the league got an automatic playoff bid.

With 12 teams in '21, they could have gone back to regional schedules. Have Presbyterian play Davidson, Marist, Stetson, JU, and Morehead State. Add 3 per year from the western group for an 8-game schedule. That would save some money by limiting travel to/from California. Could make some bus trips with that schedule. The PFL is all about doing it on the cheap.

With 11 teams and 8 games, the scheduling rotation is more random, and schedules can't be neatly arranged according to geography. That's a fairness issue for some.

[DFW HOYA]

It's hard to believe that any worthy opponent doesn't already have a game scheduled for 9/19.

Teevens should get on a call with Georgetown. The Hoyas got stuck with a D-III game that week this season.

[bulldog10jw]

FWIW I did figure out a possible solution, but it is contingent on St. Francis (PA) having September 19th free:

Sept 19 Dartmouth/Columbia

*Sept 19 Lehigh/SFU

Oct 24 SFU/Dartmouth

Oct 24 Columbia/Lehigh

Lehigh would switch the date of their games with Columbia (Sept 19) and SFU (October 24th). SFU/Dartmouth would replace the moved Columbia/Dartmouth game.

What am I missing? Why wouldn't SFU just play Dartmouth on 9/19 and leave everything else as scheduled.

[aceinthehole]

Problem is most teams already have 11 games scheduled and would have to cancel an existing game to schedule Dartmouth. Second, Dartmouth most likely wants to replace Jacksonville with a HOME game.

CCSU hosts Valpo on 9/19, the return game from this season's trip to Indiana. I would love to see Central buy that game out and schedule Big Green instead, but Central needs to play in New Britain, as that is our only home non-conf game, complicating the matter.

[ST_Lawson]

There have been rumors here in Minnesota that St. Thomas (D3) is making the move the PFL. They'd need special wavers to make it happen fast but they have been booted from the MIAC and are actively looking for a D1 home.

612

It's happening. St. Thomas will be a Summit League (olympic sports) and Pioneer League (non-scholly football) team in the next few years.

[Baron Sardonicus]

The top 3-4 JU players, relieved of any obligation to be loyal to the program, will take this opportunity to greatly improve their situations. Calvin Turner Jr. will be on scholarship somewhere in FCS. He can play any skill position. Ethan Hull can go nearly anywhere he wants in FCS, and should seek a more challenging academic environment. They have a couple of RSfr linemen who are scholarship worthy. All improved their recruiting stock on the field at JU. And now they can transfer without penalty. How's that for a silver lining?

On the other end of the spectrum, kids who stay at JU get the full ride that Dolphin football did not provide.

[Lion1983]

No, there 2...

Just 1 in Jacksonville Florida now...

[Tribal]

I remember when U Cal Northridge dropped football. Many expected a boost in basketball but they're usually at the bottom in MBB...in the nation.

Unfortunate situation for schools who fail to make fb work.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[DFW HOYA]

I remember when U Cal Northridge dropped football. Many expected a boost in basketball but they're usually at the bottom in MBB...in the nation.

Unfortunate situation for schools who fail to make fb work.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

With very few exceptions, every school that sells dropping football as a precursor to basketball success has absolutely fallen off the map on hoops. It's pointless for Jacksonville to think it's a zero-sum game.

Those that immediately come to mind: Santa Clara, Northridge, Hofstra, Boston U (aka "The Curse of John Silber"), and bascally the entire MAAC.

[aceinthehole]

With very few exceptions, every school that sells dropping football as a precursor to basketball success has absolutely fallen off the map on hoops. It's pointless for Jacksonville to think it's a zero-sum game.

Those that immediately come to mind: Santa Clara, Northridge, Hofstra, Boston U (aka "The Curse of John Silber"), and bascally the entire MAAC.

With the notable exception of Iona. The Gales dropped football after the 2008 season and in that time they have 6 NCAA appearances, 2 NIT appearances, and a CIT Finals appearance.

2011 CIT Championship Santa Clara
2012 NCAA First Four #14 BYU
2013 NCAA First Round #2 Ohio State
2014 NIT First Round Louisiana Tech
2015 NIT First Round Rhode Island
2016 NCAA First Round #4 Iowa State
2017 NCAA First Round #3 Oregon
2018 NCAA First Round #2 Duke
2019 NCAA First Round #1 North Carolina

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Northeastern's president bragged about killing football a few months after pulling the plug, so yes, you can lump Joseph Aoun into the "greedy" category.

Aoun is no Silber - Silber was a special category of asshole - but Northeastern allegedly had a deal with the New England Revolution to play in a soccer-specific stadium to replace the paved parking lot they were using. I'm not sure how close a deal actually was to happening, though. Had that happened, Northeastern football would almost certainly still be around.


My memory says the city of Boston pushed an agenda of playing in the city owned Franklin Field (which would be refurbished as part of the deal) rather than allowing any Rev's sharing their facility with Northeastern. And the city blocked construction of a facility on land on the edge of campus already owned by NU in the Roxbury section of Boston. Frustration with the city of Boston was a real factor for Northeastern.

[Libertine]

With very few exceptions, every school that sells dropping football as a precursor to basketball success has absolutely fallen off the map on hoops. It's pointless for Jacksonville to think it's a zero-sum game.

Those that immediately come to mind: Santa Clara, Northridge, Hofstra, Boston U (aka "The Curse of John Silber"), and bascally the entire MAAC.

I don't see this as a ploy to improve other sports. Rather, this development for the football program at JU has been a long time coming simply because their admin could not invest in resources to improve the program. They were a serious candidate for Big South expansion in 2008 but were ultimately turned down after the Big South -- the Big South!!! -- deemed JU's facilities insufficient. They were briefly discussed as an expansion candidate again just a few years ago but Kerwin Bell's abrupt departure following the 2015 season citing philosophical differences with regard to the future of the program was a giant red flag to everybody. Truthfully, JU dropping the program was inevitable regardless of its impact on other Dolphin sports.

[Libertine]

For what it's worth, I'll point to this rather prescient post/thread started by LFN in late 2015.

https://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?178651-Jacksonville-U-football-at-a-crossroads&highlight=kerwin+bell

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sounds like the relatively new president and AD have passive-agressive tendancies.

They postpone a *real* decision on football for another two years...meanwhile the head coach and his recruiters will have to operate under the cloud of JU possibly dropping the sport.

On top of that, those "Leadership Scholarships" that got JU in trouble with their league will still be offered to upperclassmen, meaning the Dolphins still can't win the PFL. Bell won't stick around for this horror show.

The administation's actions will scare off recruits and ensure they get a less capable head coach. In two years, they may claim justification to euthanize the program.

Man, did THIS post by Model Citizen age particularly well. Change "two years" to "four years" and it would have been right on the money.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Something Libertine's thread reminded me after I went down that rabbit hole - what does Stetson do now? Stetson and Jacksonville seemed to me at the time to be the perfect "package deal" to join the Big South, and the Big South/ASun alliance also seemed like an elegant solution designed to get both of these teams Big South ready if they chose. Now JU is dropping football and Stetson might need to make a commitment either way - to join the Big South or do what JU did.

Additionally, Stetson will have no in-state PFL conference members and looking at their schedule seemed to need to truck in a ton of different sub-D-I competition to fill out their schedule. So it looks like all eyes need to be on Stetson now.

[Mocs123]

They were a serious candidate for Big South expansion in 2008 but were ultimately turned down after the Big South -- the Big South!!! -- deemed JU's facilities insufficient. They were briefly discussed as an expansion candidate again just a few years ago but Kerwin Bell's abrupt departure following the 2015 season citing philosophical differences with regard to the future of the program was a giant red flag to everybody. Truthfully, JU dropping the program was inevitable regardless of its impact on other Dolphin sports.

If the Big South, who has Charleston Southern as a memeber, says their facilities are inadequate, that does say a lot.

[Baron Sardonicus]

For what it's worth, I'll point to this rather prescient post/thread started by LFN in late 2015.

https://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?178651-Jacksonville-U-football-at-a-crossroads&highlight=kerwin+bell




“We’re comfortable staying in the PFL for a year or two, then see how conference alignment goes and revisit it later,” said JU athletics officer Donnie Horner.

Revisitation can be a bear.

[Baron Sardonicus]

So it looks like all eyes need to be on Stetson now.

Wendy Libby, an outspoken supporter of the PFL, is retiring as Stetson's president. However, I see no reason Hatter football will undergo big changes in the foreseeable future.

Roelke is the president-elect's name. He was hired from Vassar (other side of Poughkeepsie from Marist) and has a New England/Ivy League educational background. I don's see him as anti-football. He might actually enjoy seeing Stetson play a schedule featuring Marist, Davidson, and an occasional Ivy League squad. Not so much for Hampton, North Alabama, and Gardner-Webb.

As the school's Gatekeeper in Chief, I doubt he'll be eager to jack up the football budget, simply to get into Big South football. The PFL has just as many automatic playoff bids as the Big South, and roughly the same chance for a FCS championship. Expect Stetson to stay in the Pioneer.

[walliver]

If the Big South, who has Charleston Southern as a member, says their facilities are inadequate, that does say a lot.

Charleston Southern was essentially grandfathered into Big South Football. For many years, the fielded a "Division I-AA" team but played almost exclusively D-2/NAIA schools, and even then were lucky to win 2 games a year. When the Big South added football, they were automatically added.

[NY Crusader 2010]

IMO there is a major vacuum / opportunity for FCS non-HBCU football in the state of Florida. Stetson should capitalize on this, upgrade to scholarship football and join the Big South. They would automatically be accepted based on the A-SUN/Big South football merger agreement, correct?

If not Stetson, then University of North Florida and/or Florida Gulf Coast should really take a look at adding the sport. We're talking about one of the three most talent-rich states in the country for football talent. Someone needs to bend over and pick up that $100 bill off the sidewalk.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

IMO there is a major vacuum / opportunity for FCS non-HBCU football in the state of Florida. Stetson should capitalize on this, upgrade to scholarship football and join the Big South. They would automatically be accepted based on the A-SUN/Big South football merger agreement, correct?

If not Stetson, then University of North Florida and/or Florida Gulf Coast should really take a look at adding the sport. We're talking about one of the three most talent-rich states in the country for football talent. Someone needs to bend over and pick up that $100 bill off the sidewalk.

Too bad I can't rep this twice. I wholeheartedly agree.

[Laker]

IMO there is a major vacuum / opportunity for FCS non-HBCU football in the state of Florida. Stetson should capitalize on this, upgrade to scholarship football and join the Big South. They would automatically be accepted based on the A-SUN/Big South football merger agreement, correct?

If not Stetson, then University of North Florida and/or Florida Gulf Coast should really take a look at adding the sport. We're talking about one of the three most talent-rich states in the country for football talent. Someone needs to bend over and pick up that $100 bill off the sidewalk.

I'd say the West Florida Argonauts. Started football in 2016 and made it to the championship game where Commerce (the team that beat the Mavs that year) won the title. They beat defending champs Valdosta this year and are still in the running. Pretty quick start for that program.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Florida_Argonauts

[neverobeyed]

What about Wichita State? Jakdsonville could take that budget, find the money to replace the football player's tuition bump all that money into a coach's salary and then maybe they could dominate a conference then get into a new G5 conference then disappear.

Related trivia - name the Shocker who played in Yankee Stadium, Wrigley Field and Madison Square Garden.

[ST_Lawson]

If the Big South, who has Charleston Southern as a memeber, says their facilities are inadequate, that does say a lot.

Jacksonville unveiled new stands in 2014, upping it's capacity to 5,000 (https://www.news4jax.com/sports/2014/09/12/ju-ready-to-show-off-updated-stadium/). That being said, here's what that looks like.

https://www.news4jax.com/resizer/-vQlmxXY6uGcdGtbZRmj8o2yP5A=/640x360/smart/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-gmg.s3.amazonaws.com/public/GBE3M4BLMBFA5BWKMRVASVRYN4.jpg

It's similar to what we have at WIU...on our "visitors and band" side except ours goes from end zone to end zone, rather than out to the 20's like Jacksonville's does. On the other side of the field...

https://fastly.4sqi.net/img/general/width960/17594246_qewWHrR--690S7CSsKcadSDCta0ac-XvH9-ZOnivzvM.jpg

So...yeah. Forget competing with other FCS schools...Macomb High School has better football facilities than that (and it's a small high school in a small midwestern town...this ain't TX HS football here).

[that guy]

Well just watched gameplan on stats site. Emory Hunt just called Jacksonville one of the better fcs programs. I now feel dumber for watching that. His take on the best qb in fcs was a good one also.

[Bison56]

Well just watched gameplan on stats site. Emory Hunt just called Jacksonville one of the better fcs programs. I now feel dumber for watching that. His take on the best qb in fcs was a good one also.

Guy is an idiot.

[SactoHornetFan]

With very few exceptions, every school that sells dropping football as a precursor to basketball success has absolutely fallen off the map on hoops. It's pointless for Jacksonville to think it's a zero-sum game.

Those that immediately come to mind: Santa Clara, Northridge, Hofstra, Boston U (aka "The Curse of John Silber"), and bascally the entire MAAC.

And no school without football hasn't won the hoops title since Marquette in 1977...although Gonzaga nearly won it a couple of years ago.

[DFW HOYA]

What's more apparent is the lack of progress NCAA basketball tournament participation after football drops off. The idea that not having football will elevate basketball is not grounded in fact.

Santa Clara: Dropped Feb 1992, last NCAA appearance 1996
Northridge: Dropped FB 2001, one NCAA since
Hofstra: Dropped FB 2009, no NCAA 's since
BU: Dropped FB 1997, two NCAA 's since

[Baron Sardonicus]

When an athletic program can't succeed with football, it's no surprise they can't succeed with basketball.

[DFW HOYA]

If the Big South, who has Charleston Southern as a memeber, says their facilities are inadequate, that does say a lot.

At the time Milne Field was hands-down the worst facility in the subdivision. It did have not stands or locker rooms.

[Dane96]

Northeastern's president bragged about killing football a few months after pulling the plug, so yes, you can lump Joseph Aoun into the "greedy" category.

Aoun is no Silber - Silber was a special category of asshole - but Northeastern allegedly had a deal with the New England Revolution to play in a soccer-specific stadium to replace the paved parking lot they were using. I'm not sure how close a deal actually was to happening, though. Had that happened, Northeastern football would almost certainly still be around.

This is COMPLETELY inaccurate (other than Silber being a special category of asshole--hell, he invented a new category).

Northeastern's deal with the Revs was in place. Mayor Menino killed the deal because of his want to pad union jobs/businesses. I hate the Krafts...but they tried hard on this, even offering to name the new stadium (Columbus Ave) "Menino Stadium". It was to seat 20,000 and used by local high schools as well.

While Northeastern's President did brag...he did so because he was re-diverting funding. Sure, he probably wasn't sad to kill football...but they did try to save it...just no viable field.

[Sader87]

Truth of the mattah is that both BU and NU drew flies for football for years (decades)....both schools, by the 1990s anyway, had very little football support from alums or the local populace even though they were occasionally pretty good at the FCS/1-AA level.

I doubt many at either institution today either miss football or know that it even existed there.

[NY Crusader 2010]

What's more apparent is the lack of progress NCAA basketball tournament participation after football drops off. The idea that not having football will elevate basketball is not grounded in fact.

Santa Clara: Dropped Feb 1992, last NCAA appearance 1996
Northridge: Dropped FB 2001, one NCAA since
Hofstra: Dropped FB 2009, no NCAA 's since
BU: Dropped FB 1997, two NCAA 's since

I don't understand why people still try draw a positive correlation between dropping football and elevating basketball. THERE IS NO CORRELATION. To further your point:

Fairfield: Dropped football 2002. No NCAA's since
LaSalle: Dropped football circa 2008. One NCAA since (2013 Sweet 16)
Siena: Dropped football 2003. 3 NCAA since (2008-2010) and none in a decade. Also made NCAA in 2002, the year before shuttering football.
Canisius: Dropped football 2002. No NCAA since.
St. Peter's: Dropped football circa 2008. No NCAA since.
St. John's: Dropped football 2002. MEN'S BASKETBALL A COMPLETE DUMPSTER FIRE SINCE (won NIT same academic year of final football season).

Private basketball schools doing just fine with football

Villanova (2017 NCAA Champion)
Georgetown (2007 National Semi-finalist)
Richmond
Davidson (2008 Regional Finalist)
Butler (2010 & 2011 NCAA runner-up)
Dayton

To be fair, there are a couple examples of schools that HAVE done well and elevated Men's Hoops after dropping football:

Pacific: Dropped football 1995. 5 NCAA since.
St. Mary's: Dropped football 2003. 5 NCAA since.

[DFW HOYA]

Truth of the mattah is that both BU and NU drew flies for football for years (decades)....both schools, by the 1990s anyway, had very little football support from alums or the local populace even though they were occasionally pretty good at the FCS/1-AA level.

I doubt many at either institution today either miss football or know that it even existed there.


Two different situations: Boston U's attendance in 1995 would have been more than five PL teams in 2019. Nickerson Field was (and remains) a suitable field for I-AA, on-campus, and easily accessible by the T. Northeastern played in an off-campus dump with no parking or public transit access, with half the field utilizing temporary seats. Their attendance stunk because it was an afterthought to the co-op students.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Two different situations: Boston U's attendance in 1995 would have been more than five PL teams in 2019. Nickerson Field was (and remains) a suitable field for I-AA, on-campus, and easily accessible by the T. Northeastern played in an off-campus dump with no parking or public transit access, with half the field utilizing temporary seats. Their attendance stunk because it was an afterthought to the co-op students.

While FCS football attendance figures in New England in 1995 v. 2019 is apples to oranges, you are absolutely right about Nickerson Field. Would still be an excellent venue for FCS football. PL should tell BU to get out if they don't vow to bring the sport back IMO.

[DFW HOYA]

For our readers outside the PL vortex, this is Nickerson Field.

https://goterriers.com/images/2016/9/26/BU_Athletics_081716_570.JPG?width=600&height=360&mode=crop

And not that is would matter, but adding BU as the 8th PL team would set up the Week 11 rivalry games:

Lehigh-Lafayette
Holy Cross-BU (the Battle of I-90)
Colgate-Bucknell
Georgetown-Fordham

[cx500d]

For our readers outside the PL vortex, this is Nickerson Field.

https://goterriers.com/images/2016/9/26/BU_Athletics_081716_570.JPG?width=600&height=360&mode=crop

And not that is would matter, but adding BU as the 8th PL team would set up the Week 11 rivalry games:

Lehigh-Lafayette
Holy Cross-BU (the Battle of I-90)
Colgate-Bucknell
Georgetown-Fordham

Looks like the lines are all screwy on the field. Also a track around it = #NotAStadium

[NY Crusader 2010]

Looks like the lines are all screwy on the field. Also a track around it = #NotAStadium

Hence Nickerson FIELD. Also from what I can see, there are no longer opposite side bleachers of any kind.

Also if BU brought football back, Georgetown would no longer be the only school with the FCS football version of the Wrigley Field apartment rooftops.

[DFW HOYA]

Also if BU brought football back, Georgetown would no longer be the only school with the FCS football version of the Wrigley Field apartment rooftops.

Duquesne:

https://0d53a35ccf6c1b73db42-2ab649be0a06e8d138dbd96e3457e3f2.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.c om/386619.jpg

[Sader87]

Nickerson Field is also the remnants of what was once Braves (as in the Boston/Milwaukee/Atlanta Braves) Field.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Nickerson Field is also the remnants of what was once Braves (as in the Boston/Milwaukee/Atlanta Braves) Field.

Yes the grandstand at Nickerson used to be the right field bleachers there.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

FWIW I did figure out a possible solution, but it is contingent on St. Francis (PA) having September 19th free:

Sept 19 Dartmouth/Columbia

*Sept 19 Lehigh/SFU

Oct 24 SFU/Dartmouth

Oct 24 Columbia/Lehigh

Lehigh would switch the date of their games with Columbia (Sept 19) and SFU (October 24th). SFU/Dartmouth would replace the moved Columbia/Dartmouth game.

Dartmouth is welcome to journey to Loretto.

By the way, we are Saint Francis U. We no longer use the St. abbreviation or the (PA) moniker.

Thank you.

[PAllen]

For our readers outside the PL vortex, this is Nickerson Field.

https://goterriers.com/images/2016/9/26/BU_Athletics_081716_570.JPG?width=600&height=360&mode=crop

And not that is would matter, but adding BU as the 8th PL team would set up the Week 11 rivalry games:

Lehigh-Lafayette
Holy Cross-BU (the Battle of I-90)
Colgate-Bucknell
Georgetown-Fordham

Loyola's got a nice stadium (by PL standards). If they started FB instead they could play against the hoyas while FU and HC squared off.

[KnightoftheRedFlash]

If Loyola started football, it would give the Mid-Atlantic teams another scheduling option. I always wished Mount St. Mary's or FDU had launched football so Merrimack wasn't invited. Another long NE trip is painful for the NEC PA schools.

I really wish all of those MAAC schools didn't drop football. The old La Salle-SFU games were fun.

[cx500d]

Dartmouth is welcome to journey to Loretto.

By the way, we are Saint Francis U. We no longer use the St. abbreviation or the (PA) moniker.

Thank you.

STFU

[uni88]

STFUDid u mean StFU? :D

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[KnightoftheRedFlash]

STFU

Oh how I wish my school would print those t-shirts. :)

[caribbeanhen]

For our readers outside the PL vortex, this is Nickerson Field.

https://goterriers.com/images/2016/9/26/BU_Athletics_081716_570.JPG?width=600&height=360&mode=crop

And not that is would matter, but adding BU as the 8th PL team would set up the Week 11 rivalry games:

Lehigh-Lafayette
Holy Cross-BU (the Battle of I-90)
Colgate-Bucknell
Georgetown-Fordham

https://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/braves16_top.jpg

[Sader87]

Nice juxtaposition hen...the existing stands are basically along the 1st baseline after where it was covered

[ST_Lawson]

Hence Nickerson FIELD. Also from what I can see, there are no longer opposite side bleachers of any kind.

Also if BU brought football back, Georgetown would no longer be the only school with the FCS football version of the Wrigley Field apartment rooftops.

Looks like they could probably add back in some small "visitors side" bleachers if they wanted to in the grassy area on the northwest side, otherwise it would be fine for a FCS stadium. The biggest problem I see is that there isn't much room for parking/tailgating.

We don't have dorms next to our field, but we do have a neighborhood just up the hill behind our east side stands. A couple of those places have porches, and I remember a couple of decades back, there'd always be a crowd of college kids out grilling, drinking beer, and watching the game from their back porch.

[GreenGlasses]

This has always been my stance and will continue to be my stance for the foreseeable future. Non-Scholarship Football/partial scholarship football or any sport should not be allowed at the DI level. Either fund the football program with 63 scholarships, drop the sport or move to DIII, those should be your 3 options.

The writing was on the wall in 2015 when Jacksonville refused to renew Kerwin Bell's contract. They raised the white flag at that moment. The sad part is no one outside of Jacksonville's players, few alums and a few of the Pioneer League's fans will even miss them or even know they are gone.

[DFW HOYA]

This has always been my stance and will continue to be my stance for the foreseeable future. Non-Scholarship Football/partial scholarship football or any sport should not be allowed at the DI level. Either fund the football program with 63 scholarships, drop the sport or move to DIII, those should be your 3 options.


That's not grounded in reality.

I-AA/FCS was created to accommodate schools playing under the (then) 105 scholarship limit of major college football, from 0 to 63. Prior to 1978, the Ivy was the only non-scholarship group as the Patriot League variously played at D-II or in the case of Holy Cross, was a full scholarship I-A independent. The MAAC, NEC, and Pioneer schools were for the most part in Division III.

[Sader87]

Looks like they could probably add back in some small "visitors side" bleachers if they wanted to in the grassy area on the northwest side, otherwise it would be fine for a FCS stadium. The biggest problem I see is that there isn't much room for parking/tailgating.

We don't have dorms next to our field, but we do have a neighborhood just up the hill behind our east side stands. A couple of those places have porches, and I remember a couple of decades back, there'd always be a crowd of college kids out grilling, drinking beer, and watching the game from their back porch.

Parking, or lack thereof by the 80s or so, and no real tailgating due to its urban environs hurt the atmosphere at BU on gamedays. BU and Holy Cross had a pretty good football rivalry in the 70s and 80s but the games at Nickerson lacked the "college feel" so to speak....kind of like going to a Sox game...hit the local bars before and after the game and then head home or back to HC etc...no real campus feel.

I highly doubt BU evah brings football back...it's just not a "football school"...similar to NYU, GW etc...urban school with a student body largely uninterested in football. BU loves their hockey but it begins and ends there essentially.

ETA: there were visiting stands at one point...metal bleachers, but decent ones if my memory is correct, not open were things could fall through etc...probably another 3K or so. I think if BU did have its rare big crowd, it was around 12-15K so.

[GreenGlasses]

That's not grounded in reality.

I-AA/FCS was created to accommodate schools playing under the (then) 105 scholarship limit of major college football, from 0 to 63. Prior to 1978, the Ivy was the only non-scholarship group as the Patriot League variously played at D-II or in the case of Holy Cross, was a full scholarship I-A independent. The MAAC, NEC, and Pioneer schools were for the most part in Division III.

This is somewhat accurate and somewhat misconstrued. In 1978 IAA consisted of 6 conferences and 41 schools, all scholarship as some conferences like the SoCon, Big Sky and the Southland didn't actually start playing IAA until 1982. And still everyone in a conference was playing scholarship football. At that time there were some programs that entered the scene of independents that played partial or non scholarship.

The mass influx of whole conferences being partial or non-scholarship didn't really start to take off until the very late 80s, early 90s. If measures would have been in place then those schools taking advantage of the system to be DI would have had to have had other plans in place. Because that is exactly what non scholarship or partial scholarship football does. It takes advantage of the system to allow an unfair advantage. Now granted only a few know how to do it well. But not having to have 63 scholarships and a higher football budget also means you don't have to have the equivalent of 63 scholarships on the woman's side to appease Title IX. That is probably at least 5-7 million dollars you can allocate somewhere else on athletics. And that is the reason I think to be DI you have to fully fund football.

[CHIP72]

https://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/braves16_top.jpg

^^^

Site of 1915 and 1916 World Series games...played by the Red Sox, who used Braves Field instead of Fenway Park during the series because their NL neighbors’ home field had a larger seating capacity. (Ironically, the Braves played their 1914 World Series home games at Fenway Park; Braves Field wasn’t opened until August 1915.)

Another OT comment - both the then-Boston Patriots (during their first three seasons, 1960-1962) and the USFL Boston Breakers in their one season in Boston (1983) used Nickerson Field as their home venue for games.


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[Milktruck74]

Plus the fact, since all football athletes pay tuition at $38,140 per year (https://www.ju.edu/financialservices/tuition/undergraduate.php), at 95 athletes, that's $3.6 million that the university will now lose. How are they going to redirect those monies when you just lost about 100 students at a 4,000 student university? Those funds just don't magically stay...they will disappear.

Yes and no....THe Admissions department collects that much on their behalf every year, but many are receiving need based (federal) aid and pretty much every student that enters a private school gets some form of merit based aid from the University (or an endowed entity that is associated with the university). It is a shell game. Nobody actually strokes a check for $38k to go to JU, Athlete or not.

With an enrollment of 3000, losing 95 kids is a pretty big ding. and I'd bet a majority of those playing FB are getting some nice chunks of federal need based aid and they don't want to lose that money either. Nice thought, but follow the dollars!!!!.

[CHIP72]

A few other off-topic thoughts, one of which will direct the thread in an on-topic direction:

1) The Boston/New England Patriots were truly a vagabond franchise in the Boston area during their first 11 seasons of existence. They played home games at three different college football stadiums during that period (Boston University’s Nickerson Field from 1960-1962, Boston College’s Alumni Stadium in 1969, and Harvard’s Harvard Stadium in 1970) as well as a baseball park (the Boston Red Sox’s Fenway Park from 1963-1968). (The Patriots also played a one-off “home” game in the late 1960s in Birmingham, AL against the New York Jets, who featured former Alabama star Joe Namath.)

2) The Patriots solved their problem by building a stadium outside of Boston, Schaefer/Sullivan/Foxboro Stadium, in 1971. The stadium was a bare bones facility, with limited luxury amenities, unlike all other new NFL and dual purpose NFL/MLB stadiums opened around the same time. The primary reason for that was the Patriots owner/founder, Billy Sullivan, did not have particularly deep pockets. (He later was forced to sell the team in the late 1980s after taking a financial bloodbath from promoting the Jacksons - as in Michael Jackson and his brothers - Victory Tour in the mid-1980s.

3) The Patriots hosted only one AFC Championship Game at the stadium eventually known as Foxboro Stadium. That game was after the 1996 season, and the Patriots played (and beat)...the Jacksonville Jaguars, who play in the same city as the University of Jacksonville athletic teams.

I knew I could go off on a couple different tangents and still get this thread back on topic! xnodx :D


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[UAalum72]

The dorms follow the footprint of the old stadium. The former ticket office is now the Boston U Police Dept. Just southeast on Commonwealth Ave. is Harry Agganis Arena, a hockey/basketball arena named for an All-American in two sports that BU no longer sponsors - football and baseball.
31259

[DFW HOYA]

The mass influx of whole conferences being partial or non-scholarship didn't really start to take off until the very late 80s, early 90s. If measures would have been in place then those schools taking advantage of the system to be DI would have had to have had other plans in place.

This is based on two false assumptions: 1) that Division I membership is based on scholarships and 2) that schools who didn't have scholarship football were somehow Division III schools playing "up" in D-I in basketball. In fact, the divisional structure (and before that, the split between the University and College divisions) was based on sports sponsorship. Harvard (at 43 teams) was not comparable nor compatible with a D-III school like Pine Manor College sponsoring ten.

The schools sponsoring football below D-I had been, in nearly all cases, longtime members of the University Division. They did so for generally three reasons: 1) they had dropped football in the past and upon restarting football, had no competitive conference options in Division I, 2) they funded their programs at such a low level that to play D-I would have been prohibitive, or 3) the lack of available opponents at the D-I level willing to play them.

As to "measures in place", the NCAA bylaws are clear on this. I-AA/FCS membership is not dependent on a minimum scholarship total, and if it was, no minimum dollar total. If Princeton gave every football player a $1 award, that would classify as an athletic scholarship. Does that change the picture? No. But to mandate that shools are obligated to provide 60 fully paid admissions spaces regardless, that's not what the subdivision was set up to do.

[Baron Sardonicus]

Re: prior to 1978...

These are the current FCS schools that were in D-I football during the 1977 season. 25 percent of the current FCS lineup. 22 percent of all teams that were D-I in '77.

1.Alcorn State
2.Brown
3.Chattanooga
4.The Citadel
5.Colgate
6.Columbia
7.Cornell
8.Dartmouth
9.Drake
10.Furman
11.Grambling
12.Harvard
13.Holy Cross
14.Illinois State
15.Indiana State
16.Jackson State
17.Lamar
18.Mississippi Valley State
19.McNeese State
20.Northwestern State
21.Prairie View A&M
22.Penn
23.Princeton
24.Richmond
25.Southern
26.Southern Illinois
27.Texas Southern
28.Villanova
29.VMI
30.Western Carolina
31.William & Mary
32.Yale


Long Live The Unwanted.

[neverobeyed]

A few other off-topic thoughts, one of which will direct the thread in an on-topic direction:

1) The Boston/New England Patriots were truly a vagabond franchise in the Boston area during their first 11 seasons of existence. They played home games at three different college football stadiums during that period (Boston University’s Nickerson Field from 1960-1962, Boston College’s Alumni Stadium in 1969, and Harvard’s Harvard Stadium in 1970) as well as a baseball park (the Boston Red Sox’s Fenway Park from 1963-1968). (The Patriots also played a one-off “home” game in the late 1960s in Birmingham, AL against the New York Jets, who featured former Alabama star Joe Namath.)

2) The Patriots solved their problem by building a stadium outside of Boston, Schaefer/Sullivan/Foxboro Stadium, in 1971. The stadium was a bare bones facility, with limited luxury amenities, unlike all other new NFL and dual purpose NFL/MLB stadiums opened around the same time. The primary reason for that was the Patriots owner/founder, Billy Sullivan, did not have particularly deep pockets. (He later was forced to sell the team in the late 1980s after taking a financial bloodbath from promoting the Jacksons - as in Michael Jackson and his brothers - Victory Tour in the mid-1980s.

3) The Patriots hosted only one AFC Championship Game at the stadium eventually known as Foxboro Stadium. That game was after the 1996 season, and the Patriots played (and beat)...the Jacksonville Jaguars, who play in the same city as the University of Jacksonville athletic teams.

I knew I could go off on a couple different tangents and still get this thread back on topic! [emoji16]


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Tom Beer's memoir Sunday's Fools: Stomped, Tromped, Kicked and Chewed in the NFL shares some great stories about the Sullivan days of the Patriots. A fun read.

[CHIP72]

Tom Beer's memoir Sunday's Fools: Stomped, Tromped, Kicked and Chewed in the NFL shares some great stories about the Sullivan days of the Patriots. A fun read.

I’m not a Patriots fan, but I do have (I think) 3 books about the AFL. The book Going Long is a particularly amusing read, and includes some ridiculous Patriots stories.


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[Blue Waves Crest]

With the notable exception of Iona. The Gales dropped football after the 2008 season and in that time they have 6 NCAA appearances, 2 NIT appearances, and a CIT Finals appearance.

2011 CIT Championship Santa Clara
2012 NCAA First Four #14 BYU
2013 NCAA First Round #2 Ohio State
2014 NIT First Round Louisiana Tech
2015 NIT First Round Rhode Island
2016 NCAA First Round #4 Iowa State
2017 NCAA First Round #3 Oregon
2018 NCAA First Round #2 Duke
2019 NCAA First Round #1 North Carolina

Those are likely coincidental events seeing as Iona’s funding of their hoops program is pathetic. They don’t go out to high majors in nonconf, they took the cheap way out with their renovations this offseason, and with the way Cluess recruits they should be carrying the flag for the conference and making a national splash. Instead they show up for one week a year (MAAC tourney time), get a 16 seed when some other MAAC team was slated for a higher seed line, and die the following week. They’re a dynasty built on being the spoiler of someone else’s success


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[Blue Waves Crest]

IMO there is a major vacuum / opportunity for FCS non-HBCU football in the state of Florida. Stetson should capitalize on this, upgrade to scholarship football and join the Big South. They would automatically be accepted based on the A-SUN/Big South football merger agreement, correct?

If not Stetson, then University of North Florida and/or Florida Gulf Coast should really take a look at adding the sport. We're talking about one of the three most talent-rich states in the country for football talent. Someone needs to bend over and pick up that $100 bill off the sidewalk.

What he said, one mans trash is another mans treasure. FGCU has a beautiful hoops arena for what it’s worth, to me an indication that they can fundraise


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[Blue Waves Crest]

Well just watched gameplan on stats site. Emory Hunt just called Jacksonville one of the better fcs programs. I now feel dumber for watching that. His take on the best qb in fcs was a good one also.

I believe he said Kenji Bahar is the best QB in FCS am I right? Even I cringed at that one lol


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[Blue Waves Crest]

When an athletic program can't succeed with football, it's no surprise they can't succeed with basketball.

I keep trying to tell people this out here. Northeast people who aren’t particularly college sports fans subscribe to the thought that “if you’re not playing football in front of 50K people why waste your time?”, as if that money is what’s holding back those other sports.

The problem is it’s a mindset, having winning sports teams are so much about the culture and vibe you create with your athletes and students, almost as much as it is about the X’s and O’s. Cost cutting turns something that’s meant to be a communal and holistic experience into “sports on the cheap”. People know it and can sense it and the attitude eventually becomes so pervasive that it sinks the ambition of the rest of the athletic department


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[UAalum72]

What he said, one mans trash is another mans treasure. FGCU has a beautiful hoops arena for what it’s worth, to me an indication that they can fundraise
FGCU did a football study in 2011, projected needing $90 million for a 15,000 seat stadium and $7 million/year for scholarships and expenses. (I suspect another case of a study tailored to provide the desired conclusion) The president said they’d reconsider when enrollment reached 18-20 thousand - currently 15K at the 28-year old college

[Blue Waves Crest]

FGCU did a football study in 2011, projected needing $90 million for a 15,000 seat stadium and $7 million/year for scholarships and expenses. (I suspect another case of a study tailored to provide the desired conclusion) The president said they’d reconsider when enrollment reached 18-20 thousand - currently 15K at the 28-year old college

They strike me as the type of school that would know how to build a small stadium the right way. I’m talking 15-20 rows deep, no more than 20 yards away from the field and horseshoe seating, something that says “college football” when you look at it, something intimate. I feel like it’s so simple but half the FCS ****s it up


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[BisonFan02]

Hey....NDSU plays NC A&T on the 19th, but maybe the Bison can roll out a second team for Dartmouth...make it a doubleheader. :D

[hebmskebm]

Hey....NDSU plays NC A&T on the 19th, but maybe the Bison can roll out a second team for Dartmouth...make it a doubleheader. :D

This actually happened at the D3 level, and a home-away doubleheader at that. Fairly recently too, 2005. Although I can't imagine it ever happening again.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/news/story?id=2185866

[Go Green]

Hey....NDSU plays NC A&T on the 19th, but maybe the Bison can roll out a second team for Dartmouth...make it a doubleheader. :D

I'm for it!

Although Dartmouth will be in obvious rebuilding mode in 2020...

[BisonFan02]

I'm for it!

Although Dartmouth will be in obvious rebuilding mode in 2020...

You guys and NC A&T can do a coin flip for who has to play NDSU team 1. ;)

[ngineer]

If local papers still existed, some intrepid young reporter could issue an FOIA request to see exactly what "data" and "all the available facts" they used to come to this conclusion. I mean, we know the president made it their personal crusade to discontinue the football program. But don't let them get away with the line of bull**** that a single "fact" was used to make this decision.

Is University of Jacksonville private. Don't know if FOIA would apply.

[ElCid]

Is University of Jacksonville private. Don't know if FOIA would apply.

Private.

[Milktruck74]

This actually happened at the D3 level, and a home-away doubleheader at that. Fairly recently too, 2005. Although I can't imagine it ever happening again.

https://www.espn.com/college-football/news/story?id=2185866

That is nuts. When I was at FUMA, we played 3 games in 8 days and 5 in 15. It DESTROYED our bodies, but IT did make us appreciate an off day. haha.

[BlackNGoldR3v0lut10n]

Always, it signifies the failure of a vision. Lots of people are affected


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I should know because many a moons ago, that was my alma mater.

[BlackNGoldR3v0lut10n]

What's more apparent is the lack of progress NCAA basketball tournament participation after football drops off. The idea that not having football will elevate basketball is not grounded in fact.

Santa Clara: Dropped Feb 1992, last NCAA appearance 1996
Northridge: Dropped FB 2001, one NCAA since
Hofstra: Dropped FB 2009, no NCAA 's since
BU: Dropped FB 1997, two NCAA 's since

As an ETSU alum, I believe it. The first year without football, the bottom fell out in basketball as we had ten wins under a coach named Murry Bartow. We got better but was only able to get two NCAA appearances (2009, 2010), one NIT appearance (2007), two CIT appearances (2010-semis, 2014-2nd round). Bartow got fired in 2015 which ironically was the year football came back.

[BlackNGoldR3v0lut10n]

Birmingham Southern, you remember? They started football after moving down.

I wonder if I notice a pattern here - all the ex-FCS / I-AA programs who dropped football in the past 30 years or so are due to the following reasons:

1. California de-emphasis on football - public in particular (as of this writing, only 6 UC/CSU remain playing, down from around 25+ in the 1980s)
2. Greedy presidents (LFN, I echo you) - Northeastern I'm not so sure with. BU and Hofstra, yes, both were due to greedy presidents.
3. Coaches / presidents disagreements on how football is run at the school (this was probably the kicker for Jacksonville here)

I think in the case of ETSU it was 2. It was done under the guise of "budget cuts" with the claim that it was losing $1 million/year. I wrote a report that basically debunked Stanton's thesis, only to have Dave Mullins (our genius AD at the time) demagogue the daylights out of my findings.

[NY Crusader 2010]

As an ETSU alum, I believe it. The first year without football, the bottom fell out in basketball as we had ten wins under a coach named Murry Bartow. We got better but was only able to get two NCAA appearances (2009, 2010), one NIT appearance (2007), two CIT appearances (2010-semis, 2014-2nd round). Bartow got fired in 2015 which ironically was the year football came back.

Almost forgot about ETSU dropping football. Now that I recall, didn't you guys also get kicked out of the SoCon as a result? Or was joining the A-Sun a voluntary move at the time?

[walliver]

Almost forgot about ETSU dropping football. Now that I recall, didn't you guys also get kicked out of the SoCon as a result? Or was joining the A-Sun a voluntary move at the time?

ETSU was kicked out. It didn't help that ETSU had demanded the conference kick out VMI for moving their football program out of the conference a few years earlier.

[BlackNGoldR3v0lut10n]

ETSU was kicked out. It didn't help that ETSU had demanded the conference kick out VMI for moving their football program out of the conference a few years earlier.

And the irony out of all of this was ETSU made their decision to shut down their program the very year VMI left the SoCon. Our "leadership" team supposedly reached out to other leagues to include Conference USA (who told them hell no), OVC (really) and the Atlantic Sun (who accepted them later that year). I imagine the Sun Belt and Big South told our "leadership" team hell no as well. Speaking of VMI, I had a coworker who was a VMI alum when I found out ETSU, Mercer and VMI were heading to the SoCon. He thanked me for letting him know and one day later I noticed he was wearing a VMI polo shirt.

[Pards Rule]

I recall hearing a few years back Lafayette was going to do an home and home with JAX. I guess I didnt know there was a JAX and JAX ST. I presume it would have been with the Dolphins? It seems like I recall hearing this 3 or 4 years ago or so and I presume the dropping of football was why that wasnt carried out.

[UNHWildcat18]

I recall hearing a few years back Lafayette was going to do an home and home with JAX. I guess I didnt know there was a JAX and JAX ST. I presume it would have been with the Dolphins? It seems like I recall hearing this 3 or 4 years ago or so and I presume the dropping of football was why that wasnt carried out.

Had to bring this thread back for that?????????? lol..

[Laker]

Had to bring this thread back for that?????????? lol..

With all of the Ben & Jerry's talk we need to be reminded that at one point Vermont did have football.

Vermont Catamounts football - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermont_Catamounts_football)