LFN: New Realities: Scholarships

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Part IV is out: Scholarships.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

[dbackjon]

Good write up!

[youwouldno]

Good write-up. Opponents of academic scholarships are intellectually bankrupt, and only the inertia of academia is slowing progress. The PL will be an afterthought in FCS football until scholarships are offered.

[DFW HOYA]

Good write-up. Opponents of academic scholarships are intellectually bankrupt, and only the inertia of academia is slowing progress.

I woudl disagree. Nonscholarship football works when it is a part of a philosophy on athletics and not merely a means to cut costs.

[youwouldno]

I woudl disagree. Nonscholarship football works when it is a part of a philosophy on athletics and not merely a means to cut costs.

What non-scholarship team has won the FCS championship?

Non-scholarship football should have nothing to do with Division I.

[DFW HOYA]

What non-scholarship team has won the FCS championship? Non-scholarship football should have nothing to do with Division I.

Well, that's an enlightened viewpoint! xlolx

I'm sure some Colgate fans would beg to differ the year they rumbled past UMass, Wesern Illinois, and Florida Atlantic before falling to a great Delaware team in the 2003 national title game. And had Holy Cross had chosen to compete in the playoffs in the years where they were the #1 team in the subdivision, who knows?

It's a big tent. Everyone's welcome.

[Model Citizen]

It's a big tent. Almost everyone's welcome.

Fixed.

[DFW HOYA]

So where would you have all these schools go, anyway?

The NCAA decided this 16 years ago. Everyone stays.

[Model Citizen]

I was making a comment on USD's situation.

The "NCAA" that set up classification rules, unfortunately, is not the same "NCAA" that runs the playoffs. Different committees, representing different classifications, mostly different people.

[dbackjon]

So where would you have all these schools go, anyway?

The NCAA decided this 16 years ago. Everyone stays.


NCAA's decision was the right one - they are not D-III schools. They are FCS teams, eligible for selection into the playoffs.

[LeopardFan04]

Interesting and informative as usual, LFN...

[colgate13]

Well, that's an enlightened viewpoint! xlolx

I'm sure some Colgate fans would beg to differ the year they rumbled past UMass, Wesern Illinois, and Florida Atlantic before falling to a great Delaware team in the 2003 national title game. And had Holy Cross had chosen to compete in the playoffs in the years where they were the #1 team in the subdivision, who knows?

It's a big tent. Everyone's welcome.

I do believe Holy Cross had grandfathered athletic scholarships still around when they were the toast of the PL...

I do agree though with the other statement. Until the PL gives out football scholarship, we will be the afterthought to the FCS party. Maybe every 10 years will make some noise other than a 'good game' but a loss. That's not good enough for me.

[Fordham]

Great work, LFN.

[RichH2]

The question really is not whether the PL must go to some form of schollie to compete with A10 and differentiate ourselves from the IVy, but how do we do it within the context of title 9?

[dbackjon]

The question really is not whether the PL must go to some form of schollie to compete with A10 and differentiate ourselves from the IVy, but how do we do it within the context of title 9?

Doesn't the NCAA already consider much of the Patriot Leagues "Grants-in-aid" to be schollies for Title IX purposes?

[RichH2]

Nope

[RichH2]

I should be more precise, I don't think so . How would you determine equivalencies?

[kardplayer]

I'm pretty sure they do. The difference is, for Lehigh at least, the student body has a lot more men than women. That makes it "easier" to have lots of mens sports (e.g. football and wrestling).

[Model Citizen]

Doesn't the NCAA already consider much of the Patriot Leagues "Grants-in-aid" to be schollies for Title IX purposes?

They consider athletic aid to be part of equivancies that count against the equivalency limit of 63. The NCAA isn't in the Title IX enforcement business.

[dbackjon]

They consider athletic aid to be part of equivancies that count against the equivalency limit of 63. The NCAA isn't in the Title IX enforcement business.

OK - does the DOJ consider PL football grants-in-aid to be scholarship equivalents for Title IX purposes?

[Model Citizen]

I believe that is correct. However, it seems Title IX compliance involves more than money. Even non-scholarship football programs have an impact on their schools' situation.

http://www1.ncaa.org/membership/ed_outreach/gender_equity/faq.html#comply

I'll let an attorney take it from here.

[Model Citizen]

How would you determine equivalencies?

One (1.0) equivalency is the cost of one full grant or "athletic scholarship," as allowed by the NCAA. If the cost for one football scholarship at a private school is $40,000, and a $25,000 student loan is picked up by the athletic department, then the school has just given .625 of an equivalency. Obviously, the NCAA limits each person to 1.0.

Other limits are 63 equivalencies and 85 counters (athletic aid recipients) per team.

[ngineer]

I do believe Holy Cross had grandfathered athletic scholarships still around when they were the toast of the PL...I do agree though with the other statement. Until the PL gives out football scholarship, we will be the afterthought to the FCS party. Maybe every 10 years will make some noise other than a 'good game' but a loss. That's not good enough for me.

You are correct. When Holy Cross dominated our infant league they were loaded with full scholarship players. There were several debacles at the hands of the Crusaders in that era: 1987: 6-63; 1988: 24-48; and 1989: 16-55. From 1990-92 we lost those three as well but in close fashion. Starting in 1993 to the present, Lehigh has beaten Holy Cross 12 of the last 14 games.
I also agree that until we go to full scholarship we'll usually be 'close' but no cigar. Every now and then we'll have a team from the PL who will make 'noise' (like you guys in 2003), and in retrospect our one point loss to Champion JMU in 2004, showed that our teams can play with anyone at certain times. But we, as a league , will not have a consistent presence in the post season like the SoCon, CAA, etc. until we change philosophy.

[DFW HOYA]

Here's the big scholarship question that I hope to read about later this week--is the PL prepared to weather the storm if all seven are not fully on board and what are the contingencies therein?

[colgate13]

Doesn't the NCAA already consider much of the Patriot Leagues "Grants-in-aid" to be schollies for Title IX purposes?
While the NCAA isn't in the Title IX business, every bit of knowledge that I had in my former life indicated that for Title IX purposes, athletic aid is athletic aid. Need-based aid that is only available to football players is in the Title IX mix.

Also, if someone wants to apply some common sense to the scenario, use Colgate. When Colgate rolled out our athletic scholarship sans football program, it was much heavier on the womens side than mens. If football didn't count, why in the world does Colgate care enough to give women's swimming scholarships but not men's? If need-based aid didn't count, Colgate would be out of compliance with Title IX - BUT FOR MEN.

Finally, think about it this way. IF need based aid were some secret way of hiding or not counting money in Title IX calculations that is really allocated for football, don't you think a lot of schools would be doing this? I can see the AD and President of University X talking now:

Prez: "Jeez, the Feds are on our back about the extra million we give male sports team. What can we do? Let's cut wrestling. Yea, that's the ticket."

AD: "Mr. Prez, I think I've found the answer! The Patriot League has been doing this funny need-based thing for years, and apparently we can still spend a disproportionate amount on men, we just have to make it 'need-based'."

Prez: "Really? But how is that different than normal aid that we give everyone. What's the point then?"

AD: "Well, apparently even though it is need based, it would only be available for wrestlers. Joe Average doesn't have access to that money. So in essence, we get to give athletic scholarships, but only to students that need (wink wink) them."

Prez: "Brilliant! Let's have a Fresca to celebrate."

Sorry to burst anyones Title IX bubble, but IMHO the money's already in the equation - or should be if some other school is doing it differently.

[colgate13]

Here's the big scholarship question that I hope to read about later this week--is the PL prepared to weather the storm if all seven are not fully on board and what are the contingencies therein?

Great question - and IMHO the hold up. It's a game of chicken.

Personally, I think we've got to roll the dice as a league because to not do so is to basically say "We don't care about competitiveness". Once there is a critical mass, I bet all do it. As it pertains to Georgetown, no one is saying that they have to go to athletic scholarships and spend as much as Colgate. They can still spend the same amount as they do in need-based aid, but just spend it differently.

FWIW though, there is plenty of precedent in our league of some schools offering scholarships and some choosing not too. PL basketball existed (floundered maybe a better word choice) for what, a decade, before all teams came on board with scholarships?

[Model Citizen]

IF need based aid were some secret way of hiding or not counting money in Title IX calculations that is really allocated for football, don't you think a lot of schools would be doing this?

Let's get one thing straight. Need-based aid is non-athletic gifts, loans, and work-study. This concept predates the Patriot League. Google "need-based aid" and you get links like this:

http://www.uga.umd.edu/admissions/finaid/needbased.asp

http://www.calvin.edu/admin/finaid/need.htm

http://dukefinancialaid.duke.edu/needaid_main.html

What you're talking about with Patriot League football is a partial football scholarship with a needs test. Very different animal. And that's why it's counted toward the equivalency limit.

San Diego has 0 equivalencies. Torero players get the kind of aid described in the links above.

Most Patriot League teams have over 50 equivalencies. Most players would have a piece of their aid package--an athletic portion--withdrawn if they quit the football team. This is different from the Ivy League, MAAC, and PFL.

[Model Citizen]

Put another way, the Patriot takes what starts out as need-based aid (student loans) and turns it into partial scholarships by picking up the tab. They only do this for athletes, thus it's athletic aid.

[DFW HOYA]

Personally, I think we've got to roll the dice as a league because to not do so is to basically say "We don't care about competitiveness". Once there is a critical mass, I bet all do it. As it pertains to Georgetown, no one is saying that they have to go to athletic scholarships and spend as much as Colgate. They can still spend the same amount as they do in need-based aid, but just spend it differently.

I think Georgetown's situation is less of an issue than is Holy Cross. The entire athletic philosophy at HC was changed by Rev. Brooks over the issue of scholarship football. Are they ready to open that door again?

A secondary issue is how scholarships would affect non-conference scheduling, particularly with Ivy League opponents.

[PLLB]

A secondary issue is how scholarships would affect non-conference scheduling, particularly with Ivy League opponents.

who cares? I think the patriot league has to get over there obsession with the IVY's. scolly's would open up a whole new world in terms of scheduling. national scheduling.

[Ruler 79]

This is not smack. I am unfamiliar with most of these scholarship/aid scenarios and I am curious as to the responses from the board.

I imagine it won't take that long (3 seasons)for the NEC to be on equal footing with the PL if everything remains as is. If that is the case what about AQ's going forward?

[DetroitFlyer]

Why would the PL change? As it stands today, the league gets it rubber stamped, autobid to the playoffs every year. USD was ranked far higher than the PL champ last year and sat home as the PFL champ has for 14 straight seasons. If you believe the numbers reported, the PL already outspends the majority of FCS relative to football....

The only way I see the PL changing is if the autobid is withdrawn. On the other hand, if you believe the numbers that are published, the PL is already spending the money, so why not just go scholarship without all the nonsense?

Frankly, all of this "philosophy" nonsense gets on my nerves. There are too many Ivy League wannabees. Get over it. The Ivy League is unique, always will be unique, and no one else is ever going to be the Ivy League!

Dayton provides a ton of aid to kids that happen to be football players, as do the Division III power schools. Yet, we have ZERO athletic scholarships as measured by the NCAA. PL schools have a significant number of scholarships as measured by the NCAA, yet they bemoan the fact that they do not provide scholarships.

I think all of the smoke and mirrors should be canned.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think Georgetown's situation is less of an issue than is Holy Cross. The entire athletic philosophy at HC was changed by Rev. Brooks over the issue of scholarship football. Are they ready to open that door again?

A secondary issue is how scholarships would affect non-conference scheduling, particularly with Ivy League opponents.

I think the Ivy League question is real. We now have a long history with the Ivy League, but do they decide to give that up if we tilt too far in the direction of scholarships? They would mostly be worried about Ivy teams staying competitive with us, i.e., they're afraid of Patriot League schools kicking their butts on a regular basis. Personally, I don't think that scholarships would mean that at all: the higher-echelon Ivy schools could still play scholarship schools well on a regular basis (Penn and Villanova have taken each other to the limit the last three years, the Brown/URI rivalry has been very competitive, and Harvard destroyed Northeastern a couple years ago.)

As for HC, I think every PL school (especially those that are full members) have gone through this debate over athletic philosophy over the past ten years. Look what Lafayette went through before they decided to allow basketball scholarships and give football and the support it deserved. Look at Bucknell and HC in basketball. Look at Colgate in terms of both football and basketball. It's as if every school is saying: What are we? Are we a great football school? Basketball school? Are our admissions officers and presidents comfortable with what we're becoming? Will we care more about one over the other? Most importantly, are we still attracting the best quality of students academically?

Basically, ALL PL schools are going through this "What are we?" question, especially in terms of men's basketball. I think more than ever that's also starting to happen in football as well.

These are all good questions and points by everyone on this thread - and I'm really glad it's evolving into a good discussion on this topic. xtwocentsx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Frankly, all of this "philosophy" nonsense gets on my nerves. There are too many Ivy League wannabees. Get over it. The Ivy League is unique, always will be unique, and no one else is ever going to be the Ivy League!

Dayton provides a ton of aid to kids that happen to be football players, as do the Division III power schools. Yet, we have ZERO athletic scholarships as measured by the NCAA. PL schools have a significant number of scholarships as measured by the NCAA, yet they bemoan the fact that they do not provide scholarships.

I think all of the smoke and mirrors should be canned.

Inadvertently, you nailed the debate right on the head.

"Dayton[/Harvard/Non-Scholly schools] provide a ton of aid to kids that happen to be football players."

The PL also offers a ton of aid to kids that happen to be football players. The question is - do you simply pretend that the fact that these students can play football doesn't play any part in the aid process? If you think Harvard, Princeton, Dayton or power D-III schools don't have their own smoke and mirrors going on you're deluding yourself.

This is more important when you're competing against damned good education that is free. Think of the football-playing college student. Why pay money to go to Fordham when you can go to Delaware or Duke for free? Is Fordham's education worth the debts the family would need to incur? Many say no.

[Lehigh74]

Why pay money to go to Fordham when you can go to Delaware or Duke for free? Is Fordham's education worth the debts the family would need to incur? Many say no.

I agree with the point you are making LFN but Duke is a bad example, since it is one of the top academic schools in the country.

[colgate13]

Let's get one thing straight. Need-based aid is non-athletic gifts, loans, and work-study. This concept predates the Patriot League. Google "need-based aid" and you get links like this:

http://www.uga.umd.edu/admissions/finaid/needbased.asp

http://www.calvin.edu/admin/finaid/need.htm

http://dukefinancialaid.duke.edu/needaid_main.html

What you're talking about with Patriot League football is a partial football scholarship with a needs test. Very different animal. And that's why it's counted toward the equivalency limit.

San Diego has 0 equivalencies. Torero players get the kind of aid described in the links above.

Most Patriot League teams have over 50 equivalencies. Most players would have a piece of their aid package--an athletic portion--withdrawn if they quit the football team. This is different from the Ivy League, MAAC, and PFL.

Your hung up on semantics. In PL circles, it's called need-based aid. That is how it is reported, sold to families, etc. It's grant to meet need need-based aid set aside specifically for football players. And it's not partial. There are plenty of kids on PL rosters getting the whole thing paid for, and some spending money to boot. In terms of quitting, no one's aid is cut. What happens is a portion of the grant becomes a loan that was bought out before because they play football and they get a work study job. In essence they get the same 'aid' they get before, but in a job/loan/grant package. And in reality, it's not a lot of money moved to job/loan. At Colgate for example, if a kid getting $40K in grant quits as a freshman, they would approximately get $35K in grant as a sophomore with a job/loan making up the rest.

Hence, it counts for Title IX.

[colgate13]

I think Georgetown's situation is less of an issue than is Holy Cross. The entire athletic philosophy at HC was changed by Rev. Brooks over the issue of scholarship football. Are they ready to open that door again?

A secondary issue is how scholarships would affect non-conference scheduling, particularly with Ivy League opponents.

Holy Cross is a huge issue, but it's a hypocritical one. IMO they are very much like an ostrich hoping the situation goes away but it won't. They have very little athletic philosophy to stand on when they pushed the PL scholarship door open with basketball.

I believe they are stalling and getting called on it.

The secondary issue is a non-issue in my book. Unless the Ivy decides to close OOC scheduling, who are they playing instead of PL schools? Other scholarship schools? Going to a seven game schedule would kill them. They HAVE to play PL schools or A-10 schools or NEC schools - and if you think the PL is hung up on elitist notions of playing like minded schools, let me introduce you to the Ivy League!

[colgate13]

This is not smack. I am unfamiliar with most of these scholarship/aid scenarios and I am curious as to the responses from the board.

I imagine it won't take that long (3 seasons)for the NEC to be on equal footing with the PL if everything remains as is. If that is the case what about AQ's going forward?

Excellent point, and part of the fire under some of our collective asses.

AQ's are quite the predicament, and IMHO are the stage for a playoff expansion/change. You can't deny either an autobid going forward, and you'll have a tough time taking one from someone else too.

[colgate13]

Why would the PL change? As it stands today, the league gets it rubber stamped, autobid to the playoffs every year. USD was ranked far higher than the PL champ last year and sat home as the PFL champ has for 14 straight seasons. If you believe the numbers reported, the PL already outspends the majority of FCS relative to football....

I guess the idea of competitiveness is at the core of the arguement... That's the incentive; if you care to be competitive nationally or not.

[Fordham]

i think LFN is just saying that there are some tremendous academic schools out there that indeed offer scholarships. Delaware, JMU, W&M, 'Nova, Richmond, et. al. are all great academic institutions.

A kid who gets a $22,000 need based package today to Fordham would still have to pony up over $20K per year!!! The idea that someone would choose to pay that nut when they have the chance to go one of those other schools is ridiculous.

[Model Citizen]

Your hung up on semantics. In PL circles, it's called need-based aid. That is how it is reported, sold to families, etc.

Yes, but the PL is the only entity that misuses the term. In academic "circles," there is no dispute on the definition of need-based aid (see links).


It's grant to meet need need-based aid set aside specifically for football players.

Those last six words make it athletic aid...what fans and media commonly call athletic scholarships.


And it's not partial.

Depends on the FAFSA, doesn't it?


In terms of quitting, no one's aid is cut. What happens is a portion of the grant becomes a loan that was bought out before because they play football and they get a work study job. In essence they get the same 'aid' they get before, but in a job/loan/grant package.

Having a grant converted to a loan isn't the same aid as they were getting. I'm sure you meant to say, "in essence, they get put into debt."


And in reality, it's not a lot of money moved to job/loan.

Whoa! What about that money set aside for players that's paying for everything, plus spending money?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What you're talking about with Patriot League football is a partial football scholarship with a needs test. Very different animal. And that's why it's counted toward the equivalency limit.

MC, you're missing one huge point that was discussed earlier in my series but hasn't been discussed here. Namely, the decision on whether a student is admitted comes from the admissions office. The way the league is structured, an athletic department can present a kid who has need, could be a potential recipient of a grant (or may pay their self-help portion through work-study or some other way) - and then the admissions department could elect to reject him for whatever reason.

When you say its a "partial football scholarship with a means test" or a "misused term" by the PL, that IS semantics. A student who goes through the financial aid office ends up with a certain % which is a grant, and the remainder is work-study or a loan. You can call packaging that remainder as a grant a violation of need-based aid if you'd like, but the truth is that financial aid is needs-tested, and so is this aid -- in the exact same way. I don't think that a means-tested grant of a portion that would be loan or work-study - with veto power from the admissions office - violates the spirit of need-based aid.

It's when you put this means testing up versus the way the Ivy League does it is when your argument that somehow "pure" need-based aid is better. When you have the largest endowments in the world, all of a sudden everyone under $65,000 a year who can get in get their tuition paid for. Ask how many Ivy football players are doing work-study to pay off their loans - I'd bet that there are very few, if any. For every institution, the "means test" is different based on what the institution can afford and what folks want to prioritize.

The "smoke and mirrors" that DetriotFlyer mentioned aren't limited to the PL.

[Model Citizen]

A family deciding between packages from Cornell and Colgate might not care, but the semantic differences are meaningful.

The NCAA counts the aid toward the equivalency limit.

From time to time, the NCAA has toyed with the idea of tying championship auto bid eligibility to equivalencies. That would put the Patriot in and lock others out.

Moreover, as a San Diego fan, I'm irritated by fans and sportswriters who wonder why we can't be like other non-scholarship programs, e.g. Colgate and Lafayette. They don't know their athletes get extra money. They don't know their football budgets are $3.5 million a year. They just hear non-scholarship, and it's disingenuous.

Finally, I'll say there are no smoke and mirrors at USD. So prove it, or move on.

[PLLB]

Finally, I'll say there are no smoke and mirrors at USD. So prove it, or move on.


so your saying at USD athletes are not given need based financial aid package's?

[DetroitFlyer]

The bottom line is that no matter how a player is admitted to a PL school, there are "athletic scholarships" as counted by the NCAA. The PL may have a bunch of self imposed limitations, but in the end athletic scholarships are provided. The PFL does not have the Ivy or PL thing going on as far as I know, and I think that a school only has to live by it's own admissions policies, not a league policy. The way that the PFL provides aid results in the NCAA saying that we offer zero athletic scholarships. Top to bottom, the PL is more competitive than the PFL, but the traditionally strong PFL teams, USD, Dayton, Drake, Morehead State and maybe Davidson, could probably compete relatively well in the PL year in and year out, with a completely different aid model.

The odd thing about the PL is that you are already spending the money. It is not like USD adding 50+ scholarships and trying to find the funds to do that.... In the PL, it is only a matter of philosophy, not a matter of saving money.

[youwouldno]

No, Davidson and Morehead St could not compete in the PL.

[Go...gate]

Great question - and IMHO the hold up. It's a game of chicken.

Personally, I think we've got to roll the dice as a league because to not do so is to basically say "We don't care about competitiveness". Once there is a critical mass, I bet all do it. As it pertains to Georgetown, no one is saying that they have to go to athletic scholarships and spend as much as Colgate. They can still spend the same amount as they do in need-based aid, but just spend it differently.

FWIW though, there is plenty of precedent in our league of some schools offering scholarships and some choosing not too. PL basketball existed (floundered maybe a better word choice) for what, a decade, before all teams came on board with scholarships?

You, sir, have been missed. It is great to have you back.

[colgate13]

Yes, but the PL is the only entity that misuses the term. In academic "circles," there is no dispute on the definition of need-based aid (see links).
Well, considering we're the only league doing this kind of aid in lieu of athletic scholarships, of course we're the only ones including this type of atheltic preferential aid under the umbrella of need-based aid.

But no matter how you slice it, it is still need-based aid.


Those last six words make it athletic aid...what fans and media commonly call athletic scholarships.
Oh, I agree. I'm all for calling a spade a spade. But I would say that even the 'purest' of the pure - the NESCAC - does some "interesting" things with need based aid when it comes to someone (athlete, violinist, genius - whoever). The world of need-based aid is hardly a pure world of black and white. There's a lot of instiutional jocking going on.


Depends on the FAFSA, doesn't it?

Well, it's the College Board's Profile actually, and not the FAFSA that is determining need at these schools, so the players right off the bat get better aid packages most of the time. My point was that you can't just say partial. There are plenty of full-need kids getting everything paid for and books and spending money to boot - all under a need-based formula. The problem is limiting your recruiting to players that only fit that financial background.


Having a grant converted to a loan isn't the same aid as they were getting. I'm sure you meant to say, "in essence, they get put into debt."

Oh yes it most certainly is. Having a portion of a total grant converted to job and loan is the same amount of aid they were getting. It's a different amount of grant, but the total amount a school is offering to help a family pay for college remains the same.

[colgate13]

You, sir, have been missed. It is great to have you back.

Thanks. My year is wrapping up and I'm coming up for air!

[ngineer]

A family deciding between packages from Cornell and Colgate might not care, but the semantic differences are meaningful.

The NCAA counts the aid toward the equivalency limit.

From time to time, the NCAA has toyed with the idea of tying championship auto bid eligibility to equivalencies. That would put the Patriot in and lock others out.

Moreover, as a San Diego fan, I'm irritated by fans and sportswriters who wonder why we can't be like other non-scholarship programs, e.g. Colgate and Lafayette. They don't know their athletes get extra money. They don't know their football budgets are $3.5 million a year. They just hear non-scholarship, and it's disingenuous.
Finally, I'll say there are no smoke and mirrors at USD. So prove it, or move on.

Says who? I know Lehigh players do not get 'extra money' whatever the heck that is..Yes we do know our budgets, but the issue in the PL is how they can spend the money. We cannot offer a dime to a great football player with good academics if his parents make a lot of money. A very few academic scholarships that might pay $10-15,000 can be given to a select few superlative athletes in addition to musicians, thespians, etc under a special Presidential merit program, but that only pays 25% of the freight.

[DetroitFlyer]

Let's return to 2005, shall we?

Davidson 10 Georgetown 3, game played at Georgetown!

How did Davidson do in the PFL in 2005? 2 wins and 4 losses, not exactly a PFL power team, yet they defeated Georgetown, at Georgetown....

In my opinion, Davidson could be as competitve as Georgetown in the PL. They might not win the championship, but I could see them doing as well in the PL as they do in the PFL. If ever a school fit the PL profile, Davidson might be it.... Certainly a better fit than Marist from an academic perspective. Davidson has certainly demonstrated a willingness to travel as a member of the PFL....

[LUHawker]

Let's return to 2005, shall we?

Davidson 10 Georgetown 3, game played at Georgetown!

How did Davidson do in the PFL in 2005? 2 wins and 4 losses, not exactly a PFL power team, yet they defeated Georgetown, at Georgetown....

In my opinion, Davidson could be as competitve as Georgetown in the PL. They might not win the championship, but I could see them doing as well in the PL as they do in the PFL. If ever a school fit the PL profile, Davidson might be it.... Certainly a better fit than Marist from an academic perspective. Davidson has certainly demonstrated a willingness to travel as a member of the PFL....

Davidson was initially part of the PL's predecessor league the Colonial League, but they dropped out and I doubt they would come back. Also, your comparison of Davidson to Georgetown to prove that it could compete in the PL is disingenious. You selected the year-in and year-out worst team in the PL, highlight a meager 10-3 win and then claim that Davidson could "compete" in the PL. Georgetown regularly gets pounded in the PL, so I'd hardly call that "competing". Simply being on the same field doesn't necessarily qualify as "competing".

[LBPop]

who cares? I think the patriot league has to get over there obsession with the IVY's.

Some great stuff on this thread...thanks to LFN for getting the debate going. Since I have some real personal experience with some of these issues, let me throw in my xtwocentsx on a few of them and throw out a question of my own:

Ivy League obsession: Whether the PL is hung up on the Ivys doesn't matter as much as whether the kids who are being recruited are hung up on the Ivys. LBKid was recruited by PL and Ivy schools almost exclusively. One reason that Georgetown succeeded was the presence of a bunch of Ivys on the Hoyas' future schedules. Now at Georgetown he could have it both ways--great school, potential for playoffs (xsmhx ) and a chance to beat up on some less than pleasant coaches from some pretty self-absorbed programs.

Georgetown and Scholarships: Yes, we all know that the Hoyas have less to spend than everyone else. It would seem logical that if the PL moved to scholarships, Georgetown would suffer the most, but I'm not so sure. Georgetown could finally say to potential contributors that it has a real scholarship football program, they could now funnel contributions directly to recruits based solely on their talent, and then maybe they could land another top player or two each year. Would that wake up a few folks and get them to open their checkbooks? I don't know, but nothing else has worked thus far.

Is the aid really need based and is there a difference? It is here that I have some direct experience. Under current PL rules the Financial Aid office has to determine that the family qualifies for need based aid before the football coach can offer a dime. A PL coach can have $40,000 per year available for a kid, but if the "wisdom" (don't get me started on this one) of the CSS formula says you can afford $50,000 per year, the coach cannot offer anything. I can tell you that there are a bunch of folks who do not qualify for aid, but for whom $45K+ per year is a killer. If awarded, this aid can (and usually does) include loans in the package. Once the family qualifies, the portion of aid awarded in the form of loans can be paid by the football program. I remember a quote from Lembo when he went to Elon...it went something like, "Now I don't have to play the financial need game if I want to give a kid some money." If the PL went scholarship, the coach would control the money and wouldn't have to wait on the financial aid office. It is significantly different and had we not been fully committed to sending our kid to a school like Georgetown, it would have been a huge factor.

I would be interested in DFW's take (and others, of course) on my question about Georgetown's fund raising, if the PL went to scholarship. Happy Memorial Day, everyone. xthumbsupx

[DetroitFlyer]

I said that Davidson could be as competitive as Georgetown in the PL. If Georgetown is not considered to be competitive, than I suppose that you could make the argument that Davidson would not be competitive.... I do not see the PL kicking Georgetown out, so so someone out there considers them to be competitive enough to remain....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

... Certainly a better fit than Marist from an academic perspective...

I still don't get this hatin' on Marist I see over and over again from fans. Sniffing our nose at Marist not only is Ivy League-ish and elitist, but we'd be denying a great chance to solidify our league in football and immediately increase our profile in men's basketball. Competitively, adding Marist to me is a no-brainer. The only "issue" is that, somehow, we're too good for them academically.

And 13 is right... it is need-based aid since it is means-tested. That's not the case in scholarship schools where a kid says "I'm playing football, so I don't go through the financial aid office at all."

I haven't studied USD's recruiting practices or financial aid office, so I can't decisively say "smoke and mirrors" are being used. However, I can see that USD is spending $1.9 million on athletic-related student aid. That's not very far off from Georgetown's $2.3 million (which also is in the Big East in basketball, of course), more than Davidson's $1.5 million, and almost twice Dayton's $1 million.

Coincidence - USD spends the most on athletic-related student aid, and all of a sudden they're winning PFL championships? And you're also trying to tell me that USD's athletic aid was completely blind to football ability as well? xeyebrowx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Georgetown and Scholarships: Yes, we all know that the Hoyas have less to spend than everyone else. It would seem logical that if the PL moved to scholarships, Georgetown would suffer the most, but I'm not so sure. Georgetown could finally say to potential contributors that it has a real scholarship football program, they could now funnel contributions directly to recruits based solely on their talent, and then maybe they could land another top player or two each year. Would that wake up a few folks and get them to open their checkbooks? I don't know, but nothing else has worked thus far.

Personally, I don't think Georgetown would suffer so much. My opinion is that Georgetown is hurt much more by the AI formula than the scholarship issue.


Is the aid really need based and is there a difference? It is here that I have some direct experience. Under current PL rules the Financial Aid office has to determine that the family qualifies for need based aid before the football coach can offer a dime. A PL coach can have $40,000 per year available for a kid, but if the "wisdom" (don't get me started on this one) of the CSS formula says you can afford $50,000 per year, the coach cannot offer anything. I can tell you that there are a bunch of folks who do not qualify for aid, but for whom $45K+ per year is a killer. If awarded, this aid can (and usually does) include loans in the package. Once the family qualifies, the portion of aid awarded in the form of loans can be paid by the football program. I remember a quote from Lembo when he went to Elon...it went something like, "Now I don't have to play the financial need game if I want to give a kid some money." If the PL went scholarship, the coach would control the money and wouldn't have to wait on the financial aid office. It is significantly different and had we not been fully committed to sending our kid to a school like Georgetown, it would have been a huge factor.

You had me until that sentence. I don't think the PL will ever want the coach to "control the money". There ought to be some sort of means test for kids. I feel that some combination of grants-in-aid and some limited scholarships are the way to go.

[Model Citizen]

IUSD spends the most on athletic-related student aid, and all of a sudden they're winning PFL championships?

There's nothing "all of a sudden" about it. A USD education costs $42,000 a year. It was expensive before Harbaugh arrived. It was expensive five years ago, when the Toreros were 5-5.


And you're also trying to tell me that USD's athletic aid was completely blind to football ability as well? xeyebrowx

I'm trying to tell you that no athletic aid goes to football, period. If you play baseball and football, for instance, you can't get an athletic scholarship in either sport. League rule.

[henfan]

Put another way, the Patriot takes what starts out as need-based aid (student loans) and turns it into partial scholarships by picking up the tab. They only do this for athletes, thus it's athletic aid.

Delaware played the same grant-in-aid game for years, up until 1988, when they 'got honest' and began awarding what is commonly known as athletic scholarships.

I don't see that the decision has adversely impacted the UD academics one iota. If anything, admission standards have actually increased in the last 19 years. The UD admissions office still has final say in determining student-athlete eligibility, as well they should.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There's nothing "all of a sudden" about it. A USD education costs $42,000 a year. It was expensive before Harbaugh arrived. It was expensive five years ago, when the Toreros were 5-5.

I'm trying to tell you that no athletic aid goes to football, period. If you play baseball and football, for instance, you can't get an athletic scholarship in either sport. League rule.

Ah, but under your definition of need-based aid, USD would pay $0 for athletic-related aid, then. This report (http://www.ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstList.asp) says you spend $4 million on such aid.


Athletically Related Student Aid is ot be reported as an expense and revenue under the team of the athletes receiving the aid.
Men's Teams Women's Teams Total
Total $1,986,789 $2,442,431 $4,429,220
Ratio(percent) 45 55 100%

[henfan]

Ah, but under your definition of need-based aid, USD would pay $0 for athletic-related aid, then. This report (http://www.ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstList.asp) says you spend $4 million on such aid.

The game of providing benefits (no matter what your institution calls it) to entice student-athletes to attend your university is older than the NCAA itself. Athletic aid is athletic aid is athletic aid, no matter what title the school slaps on it. Of course, USD awards aid to its athletes.

[DetroitFlyer]

I did not say that Marist would not be a good addition for the PL. I only said that from an academic perspective, Davidson seems to be a better fit. I think Davidson would also dramatically improve the basketball image of the PL on a par with Marist.

When I talk about "smoke and mirrors" I am primarily talking about schools that do not provide simple, athletic scholarships. Think Ivy, PL, PFL, MAAC, Division III power schools such as Mount Union. All of the above offer significant aid to football players. Because of self imposed rules, ( Ivy, PL ), or NCAA rules, the aid is viewed differently. The PL, "need based aid" is viewed as scholarships by the NCAA. The "need based" aid of the Ivy, PFL, MAAC and Mount Union are not....

In an ideal world, all of this nonsense would be tossed and whatever aid is being provided to football players would be called scholarships, period. UD reports that 90% of the student body receives some form of aid to attend the school. So, the football team, with 110 players, would have about 100 kids receiving some type of aid. Maybe, on average, each kid is getting 20% of their bill covered. That would equate to about 20 full ride scholarships if that is how the aid was counted. I have no way to no if my numbers are correct, but it seems reasonable to me.... If aid to football players was always in the form or athletic scholarships as defined by the NCAA, we would certainly better understand just where everybody stands.... That happens in the PL now to some degree, as we hear about the number of "equivalencies" provided. Although even this seems to be closely guarded information and not readily available in the public domain....

[Model Citizen]

LFN, you are having reading problems this morning. That total is for all men's sports. The football section is blank, as in no athletic aid.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN, you are having reading problems this morning. That total is for all men's sports. The football section is blank, as in no athletic aid.

Yes, that's the total number for all men's sports, which includes football. xcoffeex

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I did not say that Marist would not be a good addition for the PL. I only said that from an academic perspective, Davidson seems to be a better fit. I think Davidson would also dramatically improve the basketball image of the PL on a par with Marist.

A very fair point. Davidson would be a very good fit philosophically, and they were originally a part of the precursor to the league in football. However, the cost of travel meant they left the PL. Marist academically isn't rated as high in USNWR, but regionally they're in the middle of the footprint.


When I talk about "smoke and mirrors" I am primarily talking about schools that do not provide simple, athletic scholarships. Think Ivy, PL, PFL, MAAC, Division III power schools such as Mount Union. All of the above offer significant aid to football players. Because of self imposed rules, ( Ivy, PL ), or NCAA rules, the aid is viewed differently. The PL, "need based aid" is viewed as scholarships by the NCAA. The "need based" aid of the Ivy, PFL, MAAC and Mount Union are not....

In an ideal world, all of this nonsense would be tossed and whatever aid is being provided to football players would be called scholarships, period. UD reports that 90% of the student body receives some form of aid to attend the school. So, the football team, with 110 players, would have about 100 kids receiving some type of aid. Maybe, on average, each kid is getting 20% of their bill covered. That would equate to about 20 full ride scholarships if that is how the aid was counted. I have no way to no if my numbers are correct, but it seems reasonable to me.... If aid to football players was always in the form or athletic scholarships as defined by the NCAA, we would certainly better understand just where everybody stands.... That happens in the PL now to some degree, as we hear about the number of "equivalencies" provided. Although even this seems to be closely guarded information and not readily available in the public domain....

This kinda leads into what henfan is saying:


Delaware played the same grant-in-aid game for years, up until 1988, when they 'got honest' and began awarding what is commonly known as athletic scholarships.

I don't see that the decision has adversely impacted the UD academics one iota. If anything, admission standards have actually increased in the last 19 years. The UD admissions office still has final say in determining student-athlete eligibility, as well they should.

One positive thing about athletic scholarships is: All the cards are on the table. Without needs tests, you know where you stand - either it's paid for, or it goes through the athletic aid office and then all the means testing applies. As it stands with the grants-in-aid system, there will always be a question by definition. Did this athlete really qualify for aid?
However, for the kid it's always a bottom-line decision. Is my education paid for, or isn't it? Many kids just drift towards scholarships before getting all the facts on the finances, because that's "free education" and these private grant-in-aid places are expensive.

[DetroitFlyer]

The PL is concerned because they believe that the restrictions placed on the schools are hurting recruiting. I do not think that any rational person could argue against that concern. The pool of extremely successful students that are great football players is limited versus the pool of kids that are great football players and average to below average students. Let's face it, State U is free to recruit all of these kids, the PL is not and never will be.... Schools of the PFL are even more limited. Dayton's 2007 class has 16/24 recruits that are National Honor Society Members. I'm betting that Dayton was able to offer these kids a decent aid package based on grades. I know for a fact that there are kids at Dayton that were offered FBS scholarships, FCS scholarships, NAIA scholarships and Division II scholarships. For one reason or another, they end up at Dayton.

Is it realistic to think that the PL can be competing for a national championship with their current rules? I think the answer is yes! Every once in a while a Colgate team will come together, but year in and year out, no....

How can a school like Colgate ever compete with ASU or YSU year in and year out? Colgate starts out with a narrow pool of candidates that the Ivy, PFL and others are recruiting hard. YSU can literally recruit anyone who meets the minimum eligibility requirements.... How many kids are choosing between an ASU or YSU and Dayton or Colgate? Not many.

It does not mean that PL teams cannot challenge for a national championship once in a while, or that a USD from the PFL can be ranked in the top 15 of FCS, but it is unlikely that sustained success at that kind of level will be maintained.

[LBPop]

You had me until that sentence. I don't think the PL will ever want the coach to "control the money". There ought to be some sort of means test for kids. I feel that some combination of grants-in-aid and some limited scholarships are the way to go.

I understand the sentiment, but I would hate to be the one who has to draw the line. This business of determining who "needs" aid is convoluted and has a bunch of holes in it. While I take serious issue with FAFSA and CSS, I can't imagine a football league developing a system to measure financial capacity. My sense is that you either go scholly or you don't.

[dbackjon]

Does anyone seriously think that Lehigh, Lafayette, Harvard or Yale would be diminished in ANY WAY if student-athletes, who qualified for that school, were then given scholarships for playing football???

Does anyone really think that a non-athlete would reject an acceptance letter to Harvard, or Lehigh, etc, because they offer football scholarships??

And does anyone really believe that admission rules are NEVER bent at Harvard, Yale, Lafayette, etc for non-athletes that the school feels are desirable - i.e. LEGACY, great musician, etc??

[ngineer]

Does anyone seriously think that Lehigh, Lafayette, Harvard or Yale would be diminished in ANY WAY if student-athletes, who qualified for that school, were then given scholarships for playing football???

Does anyone really think that a non-athlete would reject an acceptance letter to Harvard, or Lehigh, etc, because they offer football scholarships??And does anyone really believe that admission rules are NEVER bent at Harvard, Yale, Lafayette, etc for non-athletes that the school feels are desirable - i.e. LEGACY, great musician, etc??

No--not unless you believe non-athletes turn down offers of admission at Duke and Stanford for the same reason..

[henfan]

Many kids just drift towards scholarships before getting all the facts on the finances, because that's "free education" and these private grant-in-aid places are expensive.

Great point, LFN!

Some recruits may not give fair consideration to schools offering grant-in-aid packages because the aid awarded for athletic ability is an easier concept to grasp. It may be one of the biggest disadvantages of going the grant route.

Terrific expose. Thanks.xthumbsupx

[Go...gate]

Let's return to 2005, shall we?

Davidson 10 Georgetown 3, game played at Georgetown!

How did Davidson do in the PFL in 2005? 2 wins and 4 losses, not exactly a PFL power team, yet they defeated Georgetown, at Georgetown....

In my opinion, Davidson could be as competitve as Georgetown in the PL. They might not win the championship, but I could see them doing as well in the PL as they do in the PFL. If ever a school fit the PL profile, Davidson might be it.... Certainly a better fit than Marist from an academic perspective. Davidson has certainly demonstrated a willingness to travel as a member of the PFL....


IMO, Davidson never should have left. They wanted a need-based league with BB scholarships and had they stayed, they would have gotten what they wanted.

[colgate13]

I still don't get this hatin' on Marist I see over and over again from fans. Sniffing our nose at Marist not only is Ivy League-ish and elitist, but we'd be denying a great chance to solidify our league in football and immediately increase our profile in men's basketball. Competitively, adding Marist to me is a no-brainer. The only "issue" is that, somehow, we're too good for them academically.


My issue with Marist is not academic (I'm in the minority probably I understand). My issue is committment to football. What kind of $$$$ are they spending? What are their facilities like? That speaks more to me right now.

[youwouldno]

The PL is concerned because they believe that the restrictions placed on the schools are hurting recruiting. I do not think that any rational person could argue against that concern. The pool of extremely successful students that are great football players is limited versus the pool of kids that are great football players and average to below average students. Let's face it, State U is free to recruit all of these kids, the PL is not and never will be.... Schools of the PFL are even more limited. Dayton's 2007 class has 16/24 recruits that are National Honor Society Members. I'm betting that Dayton was able to offer these kids a decent aid package based on grades. I know for a fact that there are kids at Dayton that were offered FBS scholarships, FCS scholarships, NAIA scholarships and Division II scholarships. For one reason or another, they end up at Dayton.

Is it realistic to think that the PL can be competing for a national championship with their current rules? I think the answer is yes! Every once in a while a Colgate team will come together, but year in and year out, no....

How can a school like Colgate ever compete with ASU or YSU year in and year out? Colgate starts out with a narrow pool of candidates that the Ivy, PFL and others are recruiting hard. YSU can literally recruit anyone who meets the minimum eligibility requirements.... How many kids are choosing between an ASU or YSU and Dayton or Colgate? Not many.

It does not mean that PL teams cannot challenge for a national championship once in a while, or that a USD from the PFL can be ranked in the top 15 of FCS, but it is unlikely that sustained success at that kind of level will be maintained.

Under the current arrangement, the odds are against a PL team ever winning the title. Just getting close is hard-- actually doing it is substantially harder. The PL might get close, every so often, but without schollies I'd say its 10:1 against a title with the current NCAA football structure.

[colgate13]

You had me until that sentence. I don't think the PL will ever want the coach to "control the money". There ought to be some sort of means test for kids. I feel that some combination of grants-in-aid and some limited scholarships are the way to go.
But that's what happens now in basketball throughout the PL and in other sports at Colgate. The coach controls the money, meaning they decide who to give scholarships to.

One VERY important point to remember though is the various PL admissions offices are not relinquishing their duties of deciding who gets accepted. So while the coach can decide who to give a scholarship to (control the money), they can't spend it on a player who can't get admitted!

Drop the combo thoughts LFN! Why have a foot in both doors? What's the advantage? Sounds like a recruiting hassle to explain and an administrative nightmare to maintain - with no defendable benefits IMO.

[colgate13]

That happens in the PL now to some degree, as we hear about the number of "equivalencies" provided. Although even this seems to be closely guarded information and not readily available in the public domain....

Nah, it's not that tough. Go to the Department of Ed website and do some division. You can get in the ballpark. The reason you can't find it in an nice, easily presentable format online is because, frankly, no one outside of this group of diehards cares!!

[colgate13]

I understand the sentiment, but I would hate to be the one who has to draw the line. This business of determining who "needs" aid is convoluted and has a bunch of holes in it. While I take serious issue with FAFSA and CSS, I can't imagine a football league developing a system to measure financial capacity. My sense is that you either go scholly or you don't.

I hear you Pop. The real problem is the words used. In harsh reality, neither the FAFSA nor the CSS profile give someone a real 'needs' analysis, especially at incomes higher than $80K per year. What both formulas are are rationing devices to divy up a limited pool of money. The richer get less because there isn't any more to go around... Doesn't make it any easier, but that's the reality - and I wish the financial aid language would reflect it by changing things like 'EFC' with some sort of 'eligibility' language, indicating that the goverment and the school don't really think the family has $40K lying around to pay for college!

[colgate13]

Does anyone seriously think that Lehigh, Lafayette, Harvard or Yale would be diminished in ANY WAY if student-athletes, who qualified for that school, were then given scholarships for playing football???

Any sane, rational person? No. But about 80% of the faculty at these schools would probably say yes.


Does anyone really think that a non-athlete would reject an acceptance letter to Harvard, or Lehigh, etc, because they offer football scholarships??

Nope.


And does anyone really believe that admission rules are NEVER bent at Harvard, Yale, Lafayette, etc for non-athletes that the school feels are desirable - i.e. LEGACY, great musician, etc??

Oh no, say it ain't so jon! My dreams are shattered! xbawlingx xbawlingx xbawlingx xbawlingx xnodx xnodx xnodx xnodx xsmiley_wix

[Go...gate]

My issue with Marist is not academic (I'm in the minority probably I understand). My issue is committment to football. What kind of $$$$ are they spending? What are their facilities like? That speaks more to me right now.

I believe it is about the same as Georgetown. They are building a nice new ballpark and spending a lot of money on their physical plant generally. Like American, they are also working very hard to upgrade their academic profile (they have made Princeton Review's top 361 U.S. Colleges but are absent from most other ratings), but that kind of upgrading can take a long time in the public eye. They are a good fit geographically, however, and the PL could use another all-sports member.

My biggest objection to scholarships is coach control rather than presidential control. Notre Dame, however, since Ted Hesburgh, does it a different way - they make the admissions people very powerful and make it clear to the coaches that the kids must graduate, or else. I know that scholarships raise team academic profiles, but I don't want them used to admit marginal youngsters who can't do the schoolwork or, worse yet, are bad kids who happen to be able to play a sport.

[LBPop]

Has anybody noticed that when 13 is active in a thread, the level of good information and rational discussion jumps way up? Not to be a suckup (hell, I'm too damned old to suck up to such babies), but with LFN starting this thing and with C/13 chiming in, I am really enjoying this thread.

Now, back to the real topic of discussion and I will end this PSA.;)

[ngineer]

Delaware played the same grant-in-aid game for years, up until 1988, when they 'got honest' and began awarding what is commonly known as athletic scholarships.

I don't see that the decision has adversely impacted the UD academics one iota. If anything, admission standards have actually increased in the last 19 years. The UD admissions office still has final say in determining student-athlete eligibility, as well they should.

Exactly. Just because scholarships are given doesn't require a dumbing down of the admissions criteria. In fact, Lehigh's wrestling teams' academic profile has increased significantly in the past 8 years that scholarships have been awarded. Not sure what the basketball results are.

[Go...gate]

Has anybody noticed that when 13 is active in a thread, the level of good information and rational discussion jumps way up? Not to be a suckup (hell, I'm too damned old to suck up to such babies), but with LFN starting this thing and with C/13 chiming in, I am really enjoying this thread.

Now, back to the real topic of discussion and I will end this PSA.;)

I could not agree more!! Here's to 13!! xbeerchugx

[colgate13]

Guys, stop. You're making me blush.

I'm just trying to get to 8,000 posts and then disappear for another 3-6 months. :)

[LeopardFan04]

7 to go, 13!

lots of great information here, all...

[DFW HOYA]

I believe [Marist's spending] is about the same as Georgetown. They are building a nice new ballpark and spending a lot of money on their physical plant generally.

Georgetown's 2006 football spending was $1.66 million. Marist spent $456,975.

[Go...gate]

Georgetown's 2006 football spending was $1.66 million. Marist spent $456,975.

I stand corrected. I know GU is spending more, but for some reason (possibly the new ballpark) I thought Marist had raised their spending considerably. That would certainly have to change.

[Franks Tanks]

Does anyone seriously think that Lehigh, Lafayette, Harvard or Yale would be diminished in ANY WAY if student-athletes, who qualified for that school, were then given scholarships for playing football???
Does anyone really think that a non-athlete would reject an acceptance letter to Harvard, or Lehigh, etc, because they offer football scholarships??

And does anyone really believe that admission rules are NEVER bent at Harvard, Yale, Lafayette, etc for non-athletes that the school feels are desirable - i.e. LEGACY, great musician, etc??



Actually our former school President Art Rothkoph felt this was. He never understood that true scholarships will attract better athletes. and we will steal from recruits from the Ivies and W&M and Villinova's and Richmonds out there.

[ngineer]

Actually our former school President Art Rothkoph felt this was. He never understood that true scholarships will attract better athletes. and we will steal from recruits from the Ivies and W&M and Villinova's and Richmonds out there.

Uncle Artie and some eggheads at other PL schools, as well, think that the word 'scholarship' should be given purely for 'scholars' and should have not linkage with athletics. Hence, the real concern that LC was going the route of D-III 'back in the day'..From a pure philosophical viewpoint, I can see the argument, but don't agree with it. I believe that a full education can be done that includes athletics--just as with theatre, orchestra, choirs, school newspapers, etc., all contribute to the growth of the individual. I was glad to see that Lehigh's AD is, now, actually called the Dean of Athletics; which gives Sterrett the same recognition as the the importance of that aspect of the educational process.
The abuses we have seen over the decades at other schools has always been a clarion call by the 'academics' that the demons are just over the ridge.

[DFW HOYA]

Another question for discussion: is an academic index necessarily still on the table if scholarships are added? Is it used in PL basketball (for example, is there an index with the rising number of jucos American is recruiting), or does the league simply set a floor (1100 and above) and open it up from there?

What are other leagues doing on mandating any minimum GPA/SAT numbers for schoalrships, if any? (CAA, NEC, and SoCon folks, add your voice to he discussion as well.)

[ngineer]

Another question for discussion: is an academic index still on the table if scholarships are added? Is it used in PL basketball (for example, the rising number of jucos American is recruiting), or does the league simples et a floor (1100 and above) and let it go from there?

I would hope there will be an Academic Index. It might need some adustment, but I believe there's a need to create good academic standards to make sure everyone plays by the same rules.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Another question for discussion: is an academic index necessarily still on the table if scholarships are added? Is it used in PL basketball (for example, is there an index with the rising number of jucos American is recruiting), or does the league simply set a floor (1100 and above) and open it up from there?

What are other leagues doing on mandating any minimum GPA/SAT numbers for schoalrships, if any? (CAA, NEC, and SoCon folks, add your voice to he discussion as well.)

The short answer on B-Ball is yes, all students have the AI "applied" to them as a tool to make sure they're representative of the incoming class. There's no idea of a "floor" the way it is in the Ivy League. There are some other wrinkles, but basically the AI applies the same way it does with football.

I don't know about Juco's but I'd imagine that it still applies in some way. Of course, American's academic profile is lower than other schools in the league, so their range is a lot wider than, say, Lafayette's would be. (Army and Navy, incidentally, are exceptions I think to the AI.)

I think you'll find that in all these other conferences there's no formal structure for ensuring academic standards are being adhered to - it's up to the individual school.

[CopperCat]

I hadn't read your write-up until now, but its good. Thank you LFN, good stuff!

[Go...gate]

I would hope there will be an Academic Index. It might need some adustment, but I believe there's a need to create good academic standards to make sure everyone plays by the same rules.


Agreed. If we go to scholarships, it must continue to be used, and for all sports.

[DFW HOYA]

Agreed. If we go to scholarships, it must continue to be used, and for all sports.

(Just playing devil's advocate, of course, but...)

Why stick with the AI?

The PL will still lose recruits to CAA and NEC schools, and only gains an edge against Ivy recruits with low need requirements. Army and Navy go below the PL's current index and still recruit good students.

Duke and Stanford recruit generally to SAT's of 1150 and above. Would this work for the PL?

[Go...gate]

(Just playing devil's advocate, of course, but...)

Why stick with the AI?

The PL will still lose recruits to CAA and NEC schools, and only gains an edge against Ivy recruits with low need requirements. Army and Navy go below the PL's current index and still recruit good students.

Duke and Stanford recruit generally to SAT's of 1150 and above. Would this work for the PL?


Unfortunately, they also go below this periodically.

[ngineer]

(Just playing devil's advocate, of course, but...)

Why stick with the AI?

The PL will still lose recruits to CAA and NEC schools, and only gains an edge against Ivy recruits with low need requirements. Army and Navy go below the PL's current index and still recruit good students.

Duke and Stanford recruit generally to SAT's of 1150 and above. Would this work for the PL?

It's more than just SAT scores, though. I believe there is a formula that includes GPA/class rank/adjusted for strength of hs program. Everything still in the control of admissions. The idea is that they're looking for students, first, and then what else they bring to the table.