Kramer Fired at MT State

[GOKATS]

I think this was a hasty decision, but apparently the AD felt drastic changes were necessary in light of recent events.

BOZEMAN, Mont. -- Montana State University Athletic Director
Peter Fields announced Friday that the University is exercising its
option to terminate the contract of Mike Kramer, MSU's head football
coach for the past seven seasons.
"Looking at the football program as a whole and in light of the
recent criminal activities of former student-athletes connected to it,"
Fields said, "I believe there is something broken with our football
program, and we need to take decisive steps to fix it."
Fields met with MSU President Geoff Gamble and Vice President
for Student Affairs Allen Yarnell on Friday. He said Gamble and Yarnell
concurred that the cumulative effects of the program's troubles pointed
to a "crisis in leadership" in Bobcat football.
"It starts with leadership," Fields said. "When you look at our
football program's recent history, it is apparent that its direction
does not fit with what this University is all about."
Kramer compiled a 40-43 record at Montana State, the
third-highest win total in school history. He led the Bobcats to three
of Big Sky Championships (2002, 2003, 2005), and three NCAA playoff
appearances. The 2006 Bobcats recorded the school's first post-season
win in 22 years, and finished the season ranked 10th in the NCAA
Football Championship Subdivision. MSU has dealt with a series of
criminal events related to its football program in recent years,
beginning with the arrest of assistant coach Joe O'Brien on drug-related
charges in 2003.
Fields indicated Montana State University will comply with the
terms of Kramer's contract regarding termination of employment without
cause and will make those payments required under the contract to
Kramer. Fields also indicated that the university will initiate an
expedited search for a new head coach and hopes to be able to move
quickly to have a new coach on board.

-msu-

[youwouldno]

Well I just suggested that 5 minutes ago, so obviously I agree with the decision. There has to be accountability.

[dbackjon]

WOW - this shakes up the Big Sky, and will make me re-think my standings...

[dbackjon]

Any clue on a replacement?

[Mountaineer]

Wow, that was really quick.

Good luck Cats in getting things figured out and turned around this summer. Not an enviable position to be in. xpeacex

[Ronbo]

They'll go after the Carroll College Coach.

During his seven-year tenure as Head Football Coach at Carroll College, Mike Van Diest has lead the Fighting Saints to four straight National Championships, which has been one of the most dominating runs in college football history. The Saints have posted a 78-16 record during the past seven seasons. This includes a 47-9 Frontier Conference record for an impressive 84%. The Fighting Saints have earned six straight Final Four appearances in the NAIA national playoffs.

[catamount man]

They'll go after the Carroll College Coach.

During his seven-year tenure as Head Football Coach at Carroll College, Mike Van Diest has lead the Fighting Saints to four straight National Championships, which has been one of the most dominating runs in college football history. The Saints have posted a 78-16 record during the past seven seasons. This includes a 47-9 Frontier Conference record for an impressive 84%. The Fighting Saints have earned six straight Final Four appearances in the NAIA national playoffs.

And I would laugh if he turned them down. Sorry, but if you're gonna fire a coach, do it after the season. Piss poor timing.

GO CATAMOUNTS!!!

[Ronbo]

And I would laugh if he turned them down. Sorry, but if you're gonna fire a coach, do it after the season. Piss poor timing.

GO CATAMOUNTS!!!

If he's holding out for another year or two for the Griz job he will turn them down. He's got to know he'll be first in line for the Montana job.

[Cleets]

They'll go after the Carroll College Coach.

During his seven-year tenure as Head Football Coach at Carroll College, Mike Van Diest has lead the Fighting Saints to four straight National Championships, which has been one of the most dominating runs in college football history. The Saints have posted a 78-16 record during the past seven seasons. This includes a 47-9 Frontier Conference record for an impressive 84%. The Fighting Saints have earned six straight Final Four appearances in the NAIA national playoffs.

Van Diest would be a fool to take that job at Mt. State...

xwhistlex

-

[AZGrizFan]

Kind of saw that coming. Sucks about the timing....should have an interesting effect on the BSC race this year!

[PantherRob82]

Wow. Big news out of Bozeman.

[Peems]

van diest will not go now, but maybe after the season. Think about it, spring practice has come and gone and they would have to learn everything new. They will have an "interim" head coach for awhile and then after this year is over they will look for a replacement. Firing kramer was/is stupid, all of the arrests of the players except one happened after they had left the school and if they didn't fire him when the problems first started, why now? Fields is trying to point the finger at someone, and the bobcats will suffer.

[Ronbo]

van diest will not go now, but maybe after the season. Think about it, spring practice has come and gone and they would have to learn everything new. They will have an "interim" head coach for awhile and then after this year is over they will look for a replacement. Firing kramer was/is stupid, all of the arrests of the players except one happened after they had left the school and if they didn't fire him when the problems first started, why now? Fields is trying to point the finger at someone, and the bobcats will suffer.

It was just reported on the news that Gatewood has been involved in the drug ring since 2005. He was still on the team when he started doing it, maybe since the first day he stepped foot in Bozeman.

[GOKATS]

van diest will not go now, but maybe after the season. Think about it, spring practice has come and gone and they would have to learn everything new. They will have an "interim" head coach for awhile and then after this year is over they will look for a replacement. Firing kramer was/is stupid, all of the arrests of the players except one happened after they had left the school and if they didn't fire him when the problems first started, why now? Fields is trying to point the finger at someone, and the bobcats will suffer.

I totally agree. I'm really disappointed with the AD's decision, especially at this time of year (and I place no blame on Kramer for the entire situation- he's the 'scapegoat'). AD's do whatever to cover their own a$$. Fields may be next in line for the 'axe', but I hope he's around long enough to figure out the coaching situation going into fall ball.

[CopperCat]

WOW - this shakes up the Big Sky, and will make me re-think my standings...

Because the standings are REAL important right now.........xmadx

[GOKATS]

It was just reported on the news that Gatewood has been involved in the drug ring since 2005. He was still on the team when he started doing it, maybe since the first day he stepped foot in Bozeman.

The 18 page indictment says he was involved beginning in JUNE of 2005, long after he was off the team.

[CopperCat]

The 18 page indictment says he was involved beginning in JUNE of 2005, long after he was off the team.

So that's just great. We fire him because a FORMER team member was selling drugs? Way to go Peter Fields.

"Today Bud Light salutes real men of genius, and today, its you Mr. Worthless Athletic Director guy who fires the coach to cover his own a$$......"

[griz37]

The 18 page indictment says he was involved beginning in JUNE of 2005, long after he was off the team.

Didn't he play in the Cat-Griz game in Bozeman, November of '05?

[GOKATS]

Didn't he play in the Cat-Griz game in Bozeman, November of '05?

My bad.....yep.:o

[slostang]

He may have been on a zero tolerance agreement, like Bobby Knight at IU, since the last incident at MSU. This may have been the straw that broke the camels back.

[CopperCat]

He may have been on a zero tolerance agreement, like Bobby Knight at IU, since the last incident at MSU. This may have been the straw that broke the camels back.

All I know is that there are ALOT of people who would like to break our AD's back right now. I've already gotten 4 phone calls from family members about this, and they are all seething.

[boonedocks]

Tough time for the MSU family. I'm obviously not an expert on the situation, but good luck finding a replacement. And, hope things get back on track soon.

[BrevardMountaineer03]

Tough time for the MSU family. I'm obviously not an expert on the situation, but good luck finding a replacement. And, hope things get back on track soon.

I agree, I know this sucks at this time of year.

Now, how does this affect the poll tomorrow???xconfusedx

[PSUVikings]

This is pretty sudden, but puts my Viks in the passengers seat

[OB55]

Not a good move.

[bjtheflamesfan]

you hate to see a coach get axed after spring ball. This will definitely have an effect on the rankings as well as the Big Sky race

[igo4uni]

Wow!!!!

[CopperCat]

This is pretty sudden, but puts my Viks in the passengers seat

Put yourself in our position. Would you appreciate it if someone said something like that to you?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I had to read all the posts twice to make sure I wasn't going crazy. NOBODY is saying this was a good move by the AD to get rid of a guy who has SIX former football players awaiting trial accused of running a MAJOR DRUG RING while a FORMER ASSISTANT COACH was canned for making METH? Geez, what would it take to have you say that it was a GOOD move to fire him?

I had no idea I was going out on a limb here, but good for the AD for figuring out that having a coach in there that had these types of things happen on his watch was bad for the school. Was it late? Yeah, but better that than having another bad apple get involved with this awful situation.

I mean, what would it take to get some praise for the AD for doing the right, moral thing?

[laxVik]

Put yourself in our position. Would you appreciate it if someone said something like that to you?
Well it's football not cancer.

[PantherRob82]

Well it's football not cancer.

exaclty

[PantherRob82]

you hate to see a coach get axed after spring ball. This will definitely have an effect on the rankings as well as the Big Sky race

Makes me think twice about my preseason poll.

[CopperCat]

Makes me think twice about my preseason poll.

Okay, if we all want to play this game, what happens if Mike Van Diest is the replacement coach? Would that affect your poll?

[GOKATS]

I had to read all the posts twice to make sure I wasn't going crazy. NOBODY is saying this was a good move by the AD to get rid of a guy who has SIX former football players awaiting trial accused of running a MAJOR DRUG RING while a FORMER ASSISTANT COACH was canned for making METH? Geez, what would it take to have you say that it was a GOOD move to fire him?

I had no idea I was going out on a limb here, but good for the AD for figuring out that having a coach in there that had these types of things happen on his watch was bad for the school. Was it late? Yeah, but better that than having another bad apple get involved with this awful situation.

I mean, what would it take to get some praise for the AD for doing the right, moral thing?

You obviously know no more about the situation than I know about Lehigh athletics (trust me, I know absolutely nothing about Lehigh athletics).

Kramer was fired as the 'sacrificial lamb'- the AD should be the next one fired because of his decision. A few former athletes made stupid personal decisions- they will do time in penal institutions.

They just cost a helluva good man (coach) his job.

[GreatAppSt]

xconfusedx xeekx xconfusedx xeekx xeekx xeekx

[Maverick]

Kramer is the same guy whose team just lost 3 scholarships for academics as announced by the NCAA this spring. Those guys who are no longer on the team didn't start doing all this after they left the team did they? It appears that a program that is not getting it done academically and is producing these kinds of "problems" are being laid at the feet of the head coach. What type of leadership does he provide that allows these guys to think this is acceptable? What kind of drug testing program does MSU have other than the NCAA one? What has Kramer done (not simply said) to show that people who do this as well as people who know of this on the team but do nothing about it are part of the problem as well?

I am pointing all of this out to show that this many incidents are likely the tip of the iceberg in terms of "discipline". The administration may have felt that Kramer had to go as he couldn't solve the problem with the same kind of approach that had allowed it to develop.

[PantherRob82]

Okay, if we all want to play this game, what happens if Mike Van Diest is the replacement coach? Would that affect your poll?

Will a new coach be named before the poll voting is done?

Is Van Diest an assistant? If so, seems like they would be stupid to hire him since he was around for all of this.

[CopperCat]

Will a new coach be named before the poll voting is done?

Is Van Diest an assistant? If so, seems like they would be stupid to hire him since he was around for all of this.

No, he isn't an assisstant. He is head coach of Carrol College just down the road. He has won 4 (I think) NAIA championships, all of them in a row.

[T-Dog]

The timing says to me this is only the beggining. It's like an onion, you peel off one layer and you get another until you get to the core. Something bigger is going down. They'll be lucky to finish above .500 with all this going on, esecially with the Big Sky shaping up the way it is.

[OB55]

Rarely will you see a coach from the NAIA be promoted to head coach in two full divisions up. Van Diest is a quality guy, he came to our place five years ago to recruit my son, but I would be very surprised to see him go to MSU this year.

If Kramer had to be let go over this debacle, the buck should not stop there, clean the whole place out, bye bye AD. xrulesx

[GOKATS]

Will a new coach be named before the poll voting is done?

Is Van Diest an assistant? If so, seems like they would be stupid to hire him since he was around for all of this.

Late News tonight said they have an interim coach in mind- whether he'll be announced by Monday we'll have to see.

As FTG06 said, Van Diest is not an assistant- he's the current head coach at Carroll College. He may or may not be a candidate down the road.

[GOKATS]

Rarely will you see a coach from the NAIA be promoted to head coach in two full divisions up. Van Diest is a quality guy, he came to our place five years ago to recruit my son, but I would be very surprised to see him go to MSU this year.

If Kramer had to be let go over this debacle, the buck should not stop there, clean the whole place out, bye bye AD. xrulesx

Read some of the Griz posts- they're hoping the Cats don't get VanDiest because they figure he'll be the griz coach when Hauck leaves.

Kramer getting axed was a scam- the AD should be next.xanim_chaix

[PantherRob82]

Because the standings are REAL important right now.........xmadx

......the discussion is on a football forum under FCS discussion. xthumbsupx

[PantherRob82]

No, he isn't an assisstant. He is head coach of Carrol College just down the road. He has won 4 (I think) NAIA championships, all of them in a row.

Ahh...i know of Carrol.

[douglasdmb]

Rarely will you see a coach from the NAIA be promoted to head coach in two full divisions up.

It's almost like the coach of an FCS non-scholarship program getting a head coaching job in the PAC 10. xcoolx

[MaroonMafia]

It's almost like the coach of an FCS non-scholarship program getting a head coaching job in the PAC 10. xcoolx

True, but Van Diest has Division I experience (Montana, Maine, Def. Coord. at Wyo...).

[youwouldno]

It can't hurt Van Diest to have Petrino out there, though there is no actual connection between their careers. I do wonder if the MSU AD will last. At some places a scandal like this would put the university President in danger.

[AppMan]

I had to read all the posts twice to make sure I wasn't going crazy. NOBODY is saying this was a good move by the AD to get rid of a guy who has SIX former football players awaiting trial accused of running a MAJOR DRUG RING while a FORMER ASSISTANT COACH was canned for making METH? Geez, what would it take to have you say that it was a GOOD move to fire him?

I had no idea I was going out on a limb here, but good for the AD for figuring out that having a coach in there that had these types of things happen on his watch was bad for the school. Was it late? Yeah, but better that than having another bad apple get involved with this awful situation.

I mean, what would it take to get some praise for the AD for doing the right, moral thing?

You are 100% right. It isn't like this is the first incident of this nature.

[OB55]

Who turned up the burners to dig the Bobcats out of the Big Sky gutter when Kramer was hired away from EWU? He did what they wanted, took chances on transfers, and recruited heavily out of state, and turned the W/L record around. There will always be "growing pains" associated with those kind of recruiting tactics. This year the Cats recruited much more heavily in Montana, so they all were aware of these "growing pains." Kramer went from savior to scapegoat all because he did what he was hired to do, and now he takes the blame for the actions of former players.

It would be a pleasure to be a part of the house cleaning that yet needs to be done in Bozeman. xnodx xnodx

[Grizalltheway]

Ahh...i know of Carroll.

Sorry, it's my hometown school. xcoolx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Who turned up the burners to dig the Bobcats out of the Big Sky gutter when Kramer was hired away from EWU? He did what they wanted, took chances on transfers, and recruited heavily out of state, and turned the W/L record around. There will always be "growing pains" associated with those kind of recruiting tactics. This year the Cats recruited much more heavily in Montana, so they all were aware of these "growing pains." Kramer went from savior to scapegoat all because he did what he was hired to do, and now he takes the blame for the actions of former players.

It would be a pleasure to be a part of the house cleaning that yet needs to be done in Bozeman. xnodx xnodx

This is the first time I've heard of major drug allegations associated with former players in a program as "growing pains". I suppose Dennis Erickson also endured "growing pains" in U Miami, too, getting students who barely went to class? Sorry, those are "growing pains" that college football can live without.

Football teams are a family. Even though you've "graduated" you never are really apart from the program. You reflect it, whether you like it or not. When Michael Irvin had all his problems, do you think anybody forget he went to U of Miami? He reflects the school, and the coach. You folks in Montana - do you think Mr. Erickson was a fine human being and shouldn't be held accountable for his former players, even though his players were thugs?

To me, it's the same thing. It doesn't matter if it's FBS or FCS. It's still wrong.

[AppMan]

Kramer is the same guy whose team just lost 3 scholarships for academics as announced by the NCAA this spring. Those guys who are no longer on the team didn't start doing all this after they left the team did they? It appears that a program that is not getting it done academically and is producing these kinds of "problems" are being laid at the feet of the head coach. What type of leadership does he provide that allows these guys to think this is acceptable? What kind of drug testing program does MSU have other than the NCAA one? What has Kramer done (not simply said) to show that people who do this as well as people who know of this on the team but do nothing about it are part of the problem as well?

I am pointing all of this out to show that this many incidents are likely the tip of the iceberg in terms of "discipline". The administration may have felt that Kramer had to go as he couldn't solve the problem with the same kind of approach that had allowed it to develop.

I suspect more revelations will come to light down the road as to the "quality" of some of the individuals Kramer had recruited. Come on guys, five of his former players have been arrested on drug charges and another has been charged with murder in the past year. Do you honestly think all these guys became bad apples only after leaving the program? If so you have your head in the sand. Lets look at one shining example on the MSU team, Marcosus LeBlanc. LeBlanc played most of the season with felony charges filed against him. The only reason he was able to play was because the trial date had been pushed back until after the season. He was also suspended for two games during the season and was the main culprit responsible much of the hostility on the part of ASU's players during the playoff game. He started running his mouth the second he got off the bus in Boone and escalated the tension between the teams by walking through our pregame warn-ups talking smack and calling some of our players "country nigXXX". All which proved not to be very smart since one guy in particular he singled out, D Tackle Omar Byron, responded with 3 1/2 sacks and was in the MSU QB's face all day. All during the game LeBlanc and several of his pals were making gang signs & gestures to our bench and even had the audacity to single out head coach Jerry Moore for one of his more meaningful gestures. BTW, LeBlanc failed the NCAA mandatory drug test following the game. As a side note, LeBlanc originally signed with Boise State out of junior college, however he barely made it through fall practice before falling out of good graces with the Bronco coaching staff and was asked to leave.

Judging from these incidences and other things I heard from our players there is no way I'd want Kramer coaching my university's team. Obviously there are some mighty fine young men associated with the MSU program, but it is crystal clear Kramer's obsession with wining clouded his judgment enough to bring in some very suspect individuals. It is just sad his bad judgement has made a huge impact on the guys doing the right things and affected the guys on his staff and their families.

[TulsaBobcat]

This is the first time I've heard of major drug allegations associated with former players in a program as "growing pains". I suppose Dennis Erickson also endured "growing pains" in U Miami, too, getting students who barely went to class? Sorry, those are "growing pains" that college football can live without.

Football teams are a family. Even though you've "graduated" you never are really apart from the program. You reflect it, whether you like it or not. When Michael Irvin had all his problems, do you think anybody forget he went to U of Miami? He reflects the school, and the coach. You folks in Montana - do you think Mr. Erickson was a fine human being and shouldn't be held accountable for his former players, even though his players were thugs?

To me, it's the same thing. It doesn't matter if it's FBS or FCS. It's still wrong.

Oh come on man, don't pile on! Dennis Erickson is an MSU alum. He played QB for us......xeekx

I think something had to be done. I have been embarrassed to be an MSU football fan many times in the last year. Wins will never justify criminal activity.

[Ronbo]

I hope you Cat fans note that the Griz fans are not piling on and posting negative stuff.

[BigApp]

Wow. Big news out of Bozeman.

indeed it is!

[GOKATS]

I hope you Cat fans note that the Griz fans are not piling on and posting negative stuff.

I have so noted and Thank You!xnodx Griz fans are much more familiar with Mike Kramer and the unfortunate events by a few former MSU players than a couple FCS fans from schools across the nation.

[GrizDen]

I'm surprised nobody is commenting on Kramer's record of 40-43 in seven seasons. Not exactly a stellar record. To my memory, at least two of the three playoff appearances came with only a 7 win season (can someone confirm this).

The AD, Alumni and fan base at MSU should not settle for that mediocrity.

[bjtheflamesfan]

I actually almost dropped Montana State out of my preseason top 25 when I heard this news, but I already had them pretty far down as it was, so I at least kept them in the rankings (I have them #25)

[ronpayne]

I remember that day in Boone. The more you put the picture together, the better the AD's decision seems. Good luck to MSU this season in getting the situation, with scholarships as well, turned around.

[PSUVikings]

MSU will most likely hire within the staff. To late to be looking for someone else.

[GOKATS]

MSU will most likely hire within the staff. To late to be looking for someone else.

Not likely, though the OC has been named interim coach and said he will aplly for the job.

Article from todays Bozeman Chronicle.



http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/articles/2007/05/19/sports/20kramer.txt

[PSUVikings]

Not likely, though the OC has been named interim coach and said he will aplly for the job.

Article from todays Bozeman Chronicle.



http://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/articles/2007/05/19/sports/20kramer.txt

The question is if anyone out there is available, kinda late in the year for that.

[GOKATS]

The question is if anyone out there is available, kinda late in the year for that.

Can't disagree with ya there- really poor timing on the AD's part. A lot of folks calling for his head on BobcatNation.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

There is definitly more to this firing than what we are hearing. It would be bad enough for people to expect coaches to babysit their players while they are enrolled, but being responsible for what they do after they leave seems way beyond reasonable. The only thing I think we should expect of coaches is that they punish players properly, whether it's by sprints, suspensions, or being kicked from the team.

I don't blame MSU people for being very angry.

[Mort]

This is now an incremental process. The football coach is the most directly responsible for the football program and with all of the problems, both criminal and academic, of the recent years, a move had to be made so the coach is the first to go. It doesn’t mean it’s right or fair, that’s just the way it is. If these problems continue, the AD will be next. And if that doesn’t stop these problems, the president will be next.

A LOT of people in the ‘MSU family’ are sick and tired of MSU being in the media spotlight over and over again for the wrong reasons (I'm one of them) and this is the first significant step to correct that. New policies and procedures, consultants, brave talk from the coach and AD about solving the problems in the athletic department, etc. are all well and good, but they are not significant steps toward immediate problem resolution. Firing the coach is. Sadly for MSU, something like this had to be done now to try to right the ship from a public perception standpoint. The timing makes me wonder (again, just wondering) if there are more MSU-related people involved in the drug ring than we in the general public currently know about and Fields is trying to get ahead of the curve by doing this now rather than perhaps in a few more weeks or months. I'm not saying Kramer was involved with it, I'm just saying that given what inside information Fields may be privy to, he may have decided this would happen soon anyway so why not do it now? I don't know. It's not the decision that surprises me, it's the timing.

Also, something to ponder for those MSU Bobcat faithful who still don’t understand why Fields did this and are still looking for an explanation they can accept (if any), try this one - Kramer was not Fields’ hire, Kramer was hired by Fields’ predecessor, Lindemenn. IF Fields has been told (or has figured out on his own) his job is also on the line becasue of the criminal and academic problems in the athletic department, he may have found a way to buy himself enough time to get out of MSU and find another job before this all catches up to him, too, by firing Kramer now and making him the current fall guy for all of this. In other words, if Fields is going to go down, he’s going to go down with 'his' guy in charge of the football program, not his predecessor’s guy. And if the new coach Fields hires works out for the next year or two, Fields can sit in interviews and say he has solved the problem, making himself the beneficiary of his decision to fire Kramer. In addition, Kramer was the last remaining 'high profile sport' MSU head coach who was hired by the previous AD. Now Fields has (or will soon have) all of ‘his’ people in those head coaching positions. Just a thought.

[Proud Griz Man]

Can't disagree with ya there- really poor timing on the AD's part. A lot of folks calling for his head on BobcatNation.

I am not close to the situation, but can't see how head coach Kramer is guilty (and fired) and the athletic director Fields and Offensive Coordinator (and main recruiter) Don Bailey are not guilty. xconfusedx

People I know (Helena High) said Kramer was a good guy.

[Seawolf97]

I tend to agree with MORT. There might be alot more to this that hasnt come out yet. Its just sad for the program and the players who want to get an education and play.

[Seawolf97]

That might be part of the problem being a good guy. Sometimes it doesnt always work.

[GOKATS]

. It's not the decision that surprises me, it's the timing.

Also, something to ponder for those MSU Bobcat faithful who still don’t understand why Fields did this and are still looking for an explanation they can accept (if any), try this one - Kramer was not Fields’ hire, Kramer was hired by Fields’ predecessor, Lindemenn. IF Fields has been told (or has figured out on his own) his job is also on the line becasue of the criminal and academic problems in the athletic department, he may have found a way to buy himself enough time to get out of MSU and find another job before this all catches up to him, too, by firing Kramer now and making him the current fall guy for all of this. In other words, if Fields is going to go down, he’s going to go down with 'his' guy in charge of the football program, not his predecessor’s guy. And if the new coach Fields hires works out for the next year or two, Fields can sit in interviews and say he has solved the problem, making himself the beneficiary of his decision to fire Kramer. In addition, Kramer was the last remaining 'high profile sport' MSU head coach who was hired by the previous AD. Now Fields has (or will soon have) all of ‘his’ people in those head coaching positions. Just a thought.

It's pretty common knowledge that Fields was intimidated by Kramer due to his extreme popularity and the amount of support and funding he has brought to the program. The recent arrest of a former athlete gave him an easy opportunity to get rid of Kramer. As you stated, the timing is suspect. Since the first arrests of former athletes a year ago, it has been made public knowledge that the investigations were ongoing and more arrests were to come. It has been made apparent that the handful arrested to date are all tied together in a common drug ring led by a former athlete who has been gone from the program for several years. The ringleader (obviously known to law enforcement) has not publically been arrested as yet, so this story isn't over.

[JALMOND]

A lot of times this is just the tip of the iceburg. Quite possibly, the MSU AD could be the next to go (and maybe very soon). Having a lot of friends who are Cat alums, I must say that I'm shocked and saddened by this, yet I've been wondering all along about it, since the time the assistant coach was let go for meth. As far as the timing, my guess is the Cats will go for an interm coach (damage control), do some house cleaning, and go for the Carroll coach at the end of the season.

Don't write the Cats off yet. They still will be a dangerous team next year.

[Mort]

It's pretty common knowledge that Fields was intimidated by Kramer due to his extreme popularity and the amount of support and funding he has brought to the program. The recent arrest of a former athlete gave him an easy opportunity to get rid of Kramer. As you stated, the timing is suspect. Since the first arrests of former athletes a year ago, it has been made public knowledge that the investigations were ongoing and more arrests were to come. It has been made apparent that the handful arrested to date are all tied together in a common drug ring led by a former athlete who has been gone from the program for several years. The ringleader (obviously known to law enforcement) has not publically been arrested as yet, so this story isn't over.

This leads me to speculate on what the 'trigger point' for the termination of Fields will be. In other words, what's it going to take for Gamble to fire Fields - one more arrest, two more? Another APR violation letter from the NCAA? Or what? And how about Gamble? At what point does the Montana Commissioner of Higher Education and/or the Board of Regents say it's time for him to go? How many more arrests or APR violations or whatever?

I don't know, I'm just wondering how you think this will all end up - who's going to be there and who's going to be gone in the AD and President positions one to two years from now? And is Yarnell exempt from scrutiny in all of this or how does he factor into the equation? I'm curious to hear what you think on this. Now that this snowball has been pushed from the mountaintop, how many people is it going to bury in its avalanche before it comes to a stop at the bottom of the mountain? And how long will it take?

[CopperCat]

The timing says to me this is only the beggining. It's like an onion, you peel off one layer and you get another until you get to the core. Something bigger is going down. They'll be lucky to finish above .500 with all this going on, esecially with the Big Sky shaping up the way it is.

Huh, that's funny. You're all praising PSU because of returning talent, and they have a new coach (granted he was there for spring ball and afterwards...). MSU has lots of returning talent, and I think if you put the right coach in there things will be just fine.

[GOKATS]

This leads me to speculate on what the 'trigger point' for the termination of Fields will be. In other words, what's it going to take for Gamble to fire Fields - one more arrest, two more? Another APR violation letter from the NCAA? Or what? And how about Gamble? At what point does the Montana Commissioner of Higher Education and/or the Board of Regents say it's time for him to go? How many more arrests or APR violations or whatever?

I don't know, I'm just wondering how you think this will all end up - who's going to be there and who's going to be gone in the AD and President positions one to two years from now? And is Yarnell exempt from scrutiny in all of this or how does he factor into the equation? I'm curious to hear what you think on this. Now that this snowball has been pushed from the mountaintop, how many people is it going to bury in its avalanche before it comes to a stop at the bottom of the mountain? And how long will it take?

xlolx If I knew the answer, I could predict the numbers to win the lottery.

Of the six athletes arrested since last June (5 FB & 1 BB) only one was a current player, and he (Fuller) was the last one anyone would expect- great student/athlete with a high GPA, ideal family background with both parents involved in the education profession in Florida.

The other five were all former athletes- how the hell do you assign responsiblity for their stupid decisions on anyone but themselves? Gatewood was arrested this week, last played for the Cats in '05, signed as a free agent with the Raiders last year, was cut and came back this spring to finish his degree (graduated from MSU last weekend), and was set to try out with the Phillies next month for baseball.

Kramer was the scapegoat, but he bore no more responsibility than Fields- maybe Fields should share the pain and be gone. Gatewood was no more than an easy way for Fields to remove a thorn in his side.

Yarnell is second in command- should he share some blame because Gatewood came back to finish his degree? I don't think so. Was Pres. Gamble responsible? I don't think so.

The biggest FU of this whole deal is firing Kramer at this time. As I said earlier everyone knew the investigation of this drug ring was ongoing and additional arrests were probable (this is not a widespread problem- it's all tied together).

Since the initial arrests last June the university hired outside consultants to look at recruiting policies and make recommendations. New policies were adopted and seem to be working.

All in all, the administration firing Fields wouldn't make any more sense than Fields firing Kramer, but it wouldn't break my heart to see Fields take a hit in the 'non responsibility' of the whole mess.

[lizrdgizrd]

The buck has to stop somewhere and it looks like it stopped at Kramer. Is it right? Maybe, maybe not, but that's how it is. This is a chance for MSU's AD to prove that he can provide the leadership to turn around the academic and criminal problems of his football team. Let's hope Kramer's firing is the catalyst to get MSU football back on the right road.

[Mort]

xlolx If I knew the answer, I could predict the numbers to win the lottery.

Of the six athletes arrested since last June (5 FB & 1 BB) only one was a current player, and he (Fuller) was the last one anyone would expect- great student/athlete with a high GPA, ideal family background with both parents involved in the education profession in Florida.

The other five were all former athletes- how the hell do you assign responsiblity for their stupid decisions on anyone but themselves? Gatewood was arrested this week, last played for the Cats in '05, signed as a free agent with the Raiders last year, was cut and came back this spring to finish his degree (graduated from MSU last weekend), and was set to try out with the Phillies next month for baseball.

Kramer was the scapegoat, but he bore no more responsibility than Fields- maybe Fields should share the pain and be gone. Gatewood was no more than an easy way for Fields to remove a thorn in his side.

Yarnell is second in command- should he share some blame because Gatewood came back to finish his degree? I don't think so. Was Pres. Gamble responsible? I don't think so.

The biggest FU of this whole deal is firing Kramer at this time. As I said earlier everyone knew the investigation of this drug ring was ongoing and additional arrests were probable (this is not a widespread problem- it's all tied together).

Since the initial arrests last June the university hired outside consultants to look at recruiting policies and make recommendations. New policies were adopted and seem to be working.

All in all, the administration firing Fields wouldn't make any more sense than Fields firing Kramer, but it wouldn't break my heart to see Fields take a hit in the 'non responsibility' of the whole mess.

I hear ya on the lottery thing. xcoolx

As I've stated before, it's been my feeling that Kramer had two strikes on him already because of not only the criminal incidents but because of the academic issues as well. Things were piling up and the pressure was building on the administration to do something about it. It had become a situation where the next time something negative hit the news regarding the MSU football program that somebody significant was going to get booted and it was likely to be Kramer since he was the head football coach. As I said earlier, I'm not surprised he was fired, but I question why this wasn't done sooner if that was the mindset of the MSU administration. Like others, I am left to wonder if there were things going on behind the scenes such that he was on notice that if there were any more problems then he would be dismissed and he rode it out so he could get fired and paid under the terms of his contract rather than just resigning and walking away with no buy out or severance or whatever. Probably things the public will never know for sure.

Again, I'm not saying it's right, good or fair, just that it's the nature of how things get handled in sports and business. When things are headed south, somebody gets sacrificed. Kind of like the talk of Torre getting fired from the Yankees because they are off to a slow start - injuries, lack of quality pitching, aging players, etc. don't matter to Steinbrenner. He demands to win and if that doesn't happen to his satisfaction, then Torre is probably gone. None or few of those things are Torre's fault but he'll be the sacrificial lamb. Same thing in the corporate world - when the the board of directors doesn't like the direction a company is headed, the CEO gets canned. Maybe things went south at that company because of a weak economy, a natural disaster that crippled the company or whatever it was that was out of the CEO's control, but it doesn't matter, he's gone. Just the way it works.

It's my guess, and that's all it is, that this whole situation will continue to hang over the heads of Fields and Gamble as long as they remain at MSU, however long that is. It's also my guess that the temperature is pretty high in their kitchens right now and will likely remain that way as long as they are around, especially Fields. Gamble can insulate himself somewhat from all of this via Fields and Yarnell but at the end of the day he is still the boss so he can't escape it completely.

I'm guessing Fields is gone within a year or two, at most, either through termination or to move on to a new job elsewhere. If future revelations show that current MSU athletes or coaches are somehow implicated in the drug ring then I would guess he's done immediately, again whether that is right, fair, etc. won't matter. Public and political outcry will call for his head and will get it. Even if that's not the case, the fallout from the Kramer firing will cause him to get out soon. Gamble will be around as long as he has the confidence of the people who can decide his future at MSU. If he loses that confidence, he's gone too. Or maybe he'll just retire and walk away if he sees the handwriting on the wall. Yarnell seems to be the teflon man in this equation in that he's not directly involved in the day to day operations of the athletic department and he's not the university president either so he's comfortably in the middle. Who knows, though, he may get caught in the avalanche.

Money, politics and public opinion are all powerful things in situations like this, especially at a public university, and when they are combined, they are even more powerful. People want heads on platters and will continue to exert pressure until they're satisfied that things have changed significantly enough that the problem is solved. It may not be solved due to the change but the perception is that the 'old way' wasn't working so it's time to try something new. Only time will tell whether that's true or not.

Buckle your seatbelts, MSU fans, alums, boosters, etc. because this rough ride is not going to be over for a while yet, IMHO.

[CopperCat]

It really is a shame that Bruce Parker had to leave. If he was still here, then I don't think things would have turned out as bad as they did. Pete Fields really doesn't give a rip about the football program if you look at it. He really hasn't done much to help Kramer out, or at least what he's done pales in comparison to what Parker was doing when he was here. Fields is the kind of guy that shows up to work to get his paycheck and not much else. If he cared about his job, he would have been doing something about the football team long ago. All this crap is linked together into one big nasty string of events, and if Fields was a real leader he would have stepped in to do something. Fire Kramer, yeah whatever. I can deal with that I guess (still pissed about it). But if Fields is going to publically question Kramer's leadership, then Fields is the biggest F****** hypocrite in the state!!! Do your job Fields, or you may be the next one to feel cold steel on your neck......

And good luck finding a head coach in May, when everyone is done with spring ball........Maybe Ryan Leaf could use a jobxrolleyesx

[NE MT GRIZZ]

I'm sorry to all the Cat fans. (I've been hole up for a few days)
THis is terrible timing, and the main people who are going to suffer are the quality kids still on the team. It's going to be tough on them.

I hope the new coach transition goes as smooth as possible.

We may butt heads during the season, but this Griz fan is pulling for you guys now.xthumbsupx

[CopperCat]

I'm sorry to all the Cat fans. (I've been hole up for a few days)
THis is terrible timing, and the main people who are going to suffer are the quality kids still on the team. It's going to be tough on them.

I hope the new coach transition goes as smooth as possible.

We may butt heads during the season, but this Griz fan is pulling for you guys now.xthumbsupx

Thanks for the positive comments. We certainly appreciate them, especially from a griz fan.:)

[PantherRob82]

I actually almost dropped Montana State out of my preseason top 25 when I heard this news, but I already had them pretty far down as it was, so I at least kept them in the rankings (I have them #25)

Tough to predict what will happen. You never know who might leave the team or who will be coaching.

[PantherRob82]

Suprised more hasn't been leaked out yet.

[GOKATS]

Buckle your seatbelts, MSU fans, alums, boosters, etc. because this rough ride is not going to be over for a while yet, IMHO.

It won't be that rough a ride- we may xprayx lose an AD, but we'll survive. Five a$$holes who F'd up their own lives and cost a great coach his job won't kill the program.

[CopperCat]

It won't be that rough a ride- we may xprayx lose an AD, but we'll survive. Five a$$holes who F'd up their own lives and cost a great coach his job won't kill the program.

I talked with a guy that has his hands in the alumni association pretty heavily, and things are not very pretty with them right now. But that is really where it ends. The fans are the ones who are going to be shaken up the most. The team will find a way to get it back together in time for A&M.

[GOKATS]

I talked with a guy that has his hands in the alumni association pretty heavily, and things are not very pretty with them right now. But that is really where it ends. The fans are the ones who are going to be shaken up the most. The team will find a way to get it back together in time for A&M.

Unfortunately, it's folks from the alumni association who put pressure on the administration resulting in dumb ass decisions like the AD firing Kramer.

JMHO

[PantherRob82]

Unfortunately, it's folks from the alumni association who put pressure on the administration resulting in dumb ass decisions like the AD firing Kramer.

JMHO

money talks, eh?

[Grizo406]

This Griz fan is sorry to see Coach Kramer go.

I've always had nothing but respect for "The Big Human", and I wish him, and his family, nothing but good things!

And stepping out of character for a bit, I wish the same thing for the Bobcat football program...I really do!xnodx

[AZGrizFan]

This Griz fan is sorry to see Coach Kramer go.

I've always had nothing but respect for "The Big Human", and I wish him, and his family, nothing but good things!

And stepping out of character for a bit, I wish the same thing for the Bobcat football program...I really do!xnodx

It's easy to kiss up when there's no bobcats around!

xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[Mort]

It won't be that rough a ride- we may xprayx lose an AD, but we'll survive. Five a$$holes who F'd up their own lives and cost a great coach his job won't kill the program.

I hope you're right but I fear the unknown at this point. I am concerned about what is yet to become public knowledge. I am also concerned about the piecemeal manner in which information becomes known and the timeframe involved. We seem to learn a little more every few months and an additional name or two gets added each time. Somebody else likened it to slowly pulling off a bandage versus just pulling it off quickly and being done with it.

If it's only the AD who goes and that's it, then I agree, it won't be that bad. But if there's more, then more, then more involvement of MSU-related people and we're still learning more about this a year from now as the investigation continues and people go to trial/cut deals for themselves, etc., then I'm afraid it's going to be rough for quite a while. And we (MSU fans, alums, boosters, etc.) all know that there are some people who are not going to let this go for years to come, even if it all ended today. For instance, I would guess the new football coach will be faced with this issue on the recruiting trail for years as other schools' coaches continue to bring it up when competing for recruits.

[Green Cookie Monster]

This makes Pamgate seem trivial and almost humorous compared to these troubling events at MSU. xeyebrowx

[CopperCat]

It's easy to kiss up when there's no bobcats around!

xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

I don't consider myself a fair-weather bobcat. Anybody who does that sort of thing when times get bad is a copout.

But your comments are appreciated Grizo, honestly.

[PhantomCAT]

I think that if the griz are also pointing out that this is an injustice, the rest of you guys should be able to see the truthfulness of which us CATS speak. Mike Kramer got hosed and we are all pissed about it. CATS and griz hate each other and if they are in agreement on this, then that should speak volumes of how bad the AD fouled up on this one.

[GtFllsGriz]

Of course this issue was the topic of discussion between Griz and Cat fans everywhere from graduation parties to church. Montana is very close knit family and it affects everyone no matter which team you chear for.

One comment that I heard today was that Kramer really thought that he could make a positive change is some of these kid's lives. If that is true I really applaud him for that but I think he was undone by some naivete'. It is a sad fact of life that sometimes our best intentions can back fire. That also tells me that he knew he was taking a chance with some of them. That coupled with the pressure to bring in good athletes quickly created a recipe for disaster.

I feel for the whole Bobcat Nation. Adversity does not create character, it reveals character. Those kids that are still a part of the great tradition that is Montana State Football will pull together and be very successful this year.

I will strongly cheer for them all year right up to that fatefull day in November and then every game thereafter.

Go Cats!

[Hansel]

Kramer's record at MSU was 40-43 over 7 years

Over the previous 7 years MSU was 38-38

Yeah he beat the griz a few times and was able to back into the playoffs a couple of times with 7 win seasons but it is not like he was winning national championships or even making deep playoff runs

MSU isn't a horrible job and I think the 'Cats can/will find someone who can win as much without the problems revolving around Kramer's program

[PSUVikings]

I think Ryan Leaf is available :D

[CopperCat]

I think Ryan Leaf is available :D

This one is for Ryan Leaf,xasswhipx

And this one is for Peter Fieldsxanim_chaix

[Libertine]

From an outside perspective:

If a coaches' players and former players keep showing up in the police blotter, then firing said coach makes sense. Four months ago. Everybody keeps saying this is lousy timing, but mid-May isn't just lousy timing. It's really suspicious timing. What just happened to precipitate this?

EDIT: Never mind. Just read the news article in the other thread.

[proasu89]

I think Ryan Leaf is available :D

He's coaching a golf team somewhere.xrolleyesx

Best of luck in cleaning up this mess and getting back on trackxthumbsupx

[nevadagriz]

To all you bobcat fans "this sucks" no fan should have to deal with this but you guys will pull through just fine, after all you are montanans!
I do have a few questions.
None of you think Kramer should be held accountable for any of this? Even if the kids had already graduated it seems as if the connections were made through football. Some of these guys must have been seen around the players and program?
Also did a red light not go off when one of his assistant coaches was arrested? Was'nt another coach in trouble for hitting a girlfriend????
lastly are you guys upset just because of the timing?
I will say the BIG HUMAN always fielded a competitive team but at what cost????
Again I know only what i have read here and there so please don't take these questions as smack I just don't understand your blind faith in KRAMES!

[PhantomCAT]

To all you bobcat fans "this sucks" no fan should have to deal with this but you guys will pull through just fine, after all you are montanans!
I do have a few questions.
None of you think Kramer should be held accountable for any of this? Even if the kids had already graduated it seems as if the connections were made through football. Some of these guys must have been seen around the players and program?
Also did a red light not go off when one of his assistant coaches was arrested? Was'nt another coach in trouble for hitting a girlfriend????
lastly are you guys upset just because of the timing?
I will say the BIG HUMAN always fielded a competitive team but at what cost????
Again I know only what i have read here and there so please don't take these questions as smack I just don't understand your blind faith in KRAMES!

I can see where most people outside of our near region, only think that MSU is a bunch of illiterate thugs. If you were to peek in on Bobcatnation.com, you would find several threads on this subject. More than one of them will tell you why we stand behind our coach and feel there has been a great injustice done.

[CopperCat]

I can see where most people outside of our near region, only think that MSU is a bunch of illiterate thugs. If you were to peek in on Bobcatnation.com, you would find several threads on this subject. More than one of them will tell you why we stand behind our coach and feel there has been a great injustice done.

Unless you have watched Mike Kramer on the sidelines and listened to him talk on several occassions, you can't fully understand the quality and content of his character. It is indeed true that a great injustice has been done.

[BigApp]

I think Ryan Leaf is available :D

you're evil...xthumbsupx

[furpal87]

Wow, this whole thing is amazing we hadn't heard much about this here on the East Coast. The question is where do you draw the line of responsibility. Just a quick opinion from some of you on whether some of these coaches who got fired for "lack of instituional control," if you remember some:

Barry Switzer (Oklahoma)
Lefty Driesell (Maryland)
Jim Valvano (N.C. State)
Jim Baron (St. Bonavaenture)
Mike Pressler (Duke Lacrosse)

Those are some I thought of right off the bat, any opinions, or any others you could think of?

[catbob]

MSU football: Ex-QB Lulay blames 'selfish' players for Kramer's demise

By TIM DUMAS Chronicle Sports Writer

Travis Lulay, the top player of the Mike Kramer era - and a former colleague - expressed his dissatisfaction from the other side of the Atlantic Ocean on Saturday morning after learning of his former coach's firing.


Lulay, Montana State's career passing leader and current member of NFL Europa's Berlin Thunder, said in an e-mail from Germany that the news was “very disappointing, to say the least.”

Kramer, MSU's head football coach the past seven seasons, was ousted Friday after another of his former players was arrested.

Last fall, Kramer led the Bobcats to their best season in 22 years, including a trip to the national quarterfinals. But on Tuesday, former receiver Rick Gatewood was arrested on drug charges.

Gatewood is among five current and former players to be detained by police for either drug or murder charges over the past year.

Lulay, a starting quarterback for 3 1/2 seasons who served as an assistant coach last season, said Kramer shouldn't have taken the fall for what occurred away from the field.

“The sad part about it is that it was the actions of a few selfish, misguided individuals that ultimately led to this decision,” he said. “I know how much time and energy Kramer spent on maintaining a clean image within the football program. Since the first of these off-the-field incidents happened, he had tightened the ship even more.

“A coach is a leader and a mentor, not a babysitter of grown men.”

Lulay was an unknown, unproven true freshman during the 2002 season before Kramer inserted him into the starting lineup for a struggling Tyler Thomas in Week 6 against Idaho State.

While MSU lost 18-14, Lulay led the ‘Cats to two touchdown drives in the game's opening eight minutes. Later that season, he helped Montana State end a 16-year losing streak to the University of Montana.

Lulay wound up with three wins over the Grizzlies and over 10,000 career passing yards.

“I owe coach Kramer a lot,” Lulay said. “He and coach (Don) Bailey are the ones that found me and gave me the opportunity at Montana State.”

Former MSU offensive lineman Jeff Bolton, who like Lulay played for Kramer for four years, agreed that a head coach can only do so much when it comes to player conduct.

“There's nothing he can do,” Bolton said from Helena Friday night. “I couldn't believe that what former players did is falling back on (Kramer's) lap.”

“(The players) have to make their own choices.”

Current players Elliott Barnhart and Aaron Papich, who will both be captains next season, echoed those comments.

“We were on a zero-tolerance policy,” Barnhart said. “(Kramer) made it clear he would not put up with anything. (Athletic director Peter) Fields doesn't understand the situation if he's looking to change leadership.

“The problem is our society as a hole.”

Said Papich: “The firing of coach Kramer is a huge loss. He made it very clear that we were under the microscope.”

Lulay and Bolton were both signed as free agents last spring by the Seattle Seahawks. Both were cut, but Lulay was re-signed by the Seahawks, who allocated him to NFL Europa.

Lulay, who will be in Seattle's preseason training camp this summer, says Kramer's attributes should not be forgotten.

“His energy and enthusiasm are infectious, he was always willing to accept blame, and he cared about and supported his players,” Lulay said. “I can only hope he will be remembered at Montana State as a classy, hardworking individual who brought many good things to this football program.”

[Mort]

To all you bobcat fans "this sucks" no fan should have to deal with this but you guys will pull through just fine, after all you are montanans!
I do have a few questions.
None of you think Kramer should be held accountable for any of this? Even if the kids had already graduated it seems as if the connections were made through football. Some of these guys must have been seen around the players and program?
Also did a red light not go off when one of his assistant coaches was arrested? Was'nt another coach in trouble for hitting a girlfriend????
lastly are you guys upset just because of the timing?
I will say the BIG HUMAN always fielded a competitive team but at what cost????
Again I know only what i have read here and there so please don't take these questions as smack I just don't understand your blind faith in KRAMES!

Let me take a shot at answering these questions - I don't know if I can state this the way I intend it but here goes.

It is my understanding that there are a lot of people in the "MSU family" who are sick and tired of the negative publicity that is coming from the athletic department in the past few years. Most of that publicity has been generated by the football program. As a result, many people have felt that something needed to be done about this and the pressure has been building on the administration to do something for quite a while now. In addition to the criminal problems, there has been a pattern of academic deficiencies in the athletic department the past couple of years, again tied mostly to the football program. That, too, has some people up in arms.

I think a lot of people felt someone should be held accountable for these problems and the most likely choice was the head football coach. Right or wrong, fair or unfair, those things simply do not matter. The way things work, as I stated earlier in this thread, is that the person in charge is the one to go first, whether it's his fault or not, whether it's in sports or in business. That's just the way it is and that isn't going to change in this instance.

That having been said, I also think many people are just as upset at the timing of this decision as they are at the actual decision itself. My sense is that many MSU people think that if the administration was going to cut Kramer loose that it should have been done in December or January, not in May. Nothing has really changed during that time period other than more information about former players has become public, and it's reasonable to assume that the MSU administration either knows what is being learned as the police investigation continues or they have a pretty good idea of where this is all headed - they may not know specifics but they can put two and two together and get four on their own. So, the timing is the issue as much as the decision, at least in my view.

Finally, I'm going to throw this theory out there and I'll probably take a beating for it here but that's ok, I can handle it. I have been around long enough to remember the MSU 'glory days' of the 1976 national championship team (I played against some of the guys on that team when we were in high school) and I was fortunate enough to witness first hand the improbable, magical run the 1984 team had in winning the national championship. That season will always be my most special memory of Bobcat football. After 1984, the program went in the tank and stayed there for nearly 20 years. Only in the past 5 years has the program been 'successful' on the field and as such, there are many younger people who have just gotten their first taste of MSU having a successful program after having suffered through nothing but the disappointment and frustration of losing for many years prior to that. I think they are now afraid/concerned that with Kramer gone that the football program will return to being unsuccessful and they will not get to witness a national championship for many years, if ever. They saw the Cats making steady progress on the field toward national championship contention and now they think that's been taken from them so they are coming to Kramer's defense since he's the one who gave them the hope of attaining that title and the satisfaction as a fan of being a 'part' of that.

I don't know if that makes any sense but to summarize, I think the older Cat fans/alums may be less upset and more understanding of this firing than are the younger fans because we have a different perspective on things. That sure makes me sound old, doesn't it? ;)

[Bobcat in NC]

First off, I want to thank all those who have been supportive of the MSU football program through this little disaster. Especially the Griz fans here on AGS (dunno about EGriz, I'm afraid to go on these days) who have voiced loud support for the Cats and not decided to pile on.

It's taken a few days for me to process all of this, and I'm pretty sure that I'm not done processing it all yet. Needless to say, I feel like I've been kicked in the stomach (or somewhere lower). MSU will get through this, and will be stronger as a result.

[STACCATS]

I suspect more revelations will come to light down the road as to the "quality" of some of the individuals Kramer had recruited. Come on guys, five of his former players have been arrested on drug charges and another has been charged with murder in the past year. Do you honestly think all these guys became bad apples only after leaving the program? If so you have your head in the sand. Lets look at one shining example on the MSU team, Marcosus LeBlanc. LeBlanc played most of the season with felony charges filed against him. The only reason he was able to play was because the trial date had been pushed back until after the season. He was also suspended for two games during the season and was the main culprit responsible much of the hostility on the part of ASU's players during the playoff game. He started running his mouth the second he got off the bus in Boone and escalated the tension between the teams by walking through our pregame warn-ups talking smack and calling some of our players "country nigXXX". All which proved not to be very smart since one guy in particular he singled out, D Tackle Omar Byron, responded with 3 1/2 sacks and was in the MSU QB's face all day. All during the game LeBlanc and several of his pals were making gang signs & gestures to our bench and even had the audacity to single out head coach Jerry Moore for one of his more meaningful gestures. BTW, LeBlanc failed the NCAA mandatory drug test following the game. As a side note, LeBlanc originally signed with Boise State out of junior college, however he barely made it through fall practice before falling out of good graces with the Bronco coaching staff and was asked to leave.

Judging from these incidences and other things I heard from our players there is no way I'd want Kramer coaching my university's team. Obviously there are some mighty fine young men associated with the MSU program, but it is crystal clear Kramer's obsession with wining clouded his judgment enough to bring in some very suspect individuals. It is just sad his bad judgement has made a huge impact on the guys doing the right things and affected the guys on his staff and their families.



You App fans are great. Please provide me with some proof of Leblanc facing felony charges, and those charges being postponed until after the season? Thought so.

While Leblanc's actions in Boone were unacceptable, don't make up ***** to pile onto the story.

[laxVik]

While Leblanc's actions in Boone were unacceptable, don't make up ***** to pile onto the story.The pile's too high already. xsmiley_wix

[CopperCat]

I suspect more revelations will come to light down the road as to the "quality" of some of the individuals Kramer had recruited. Come on guys, five of his former players have been arrested on drug charges and another has been charged with murder in the past year. Do you honestly think all these guys became bad apples only after leaving the program? If so you have your head in the sand. Lets look at one shining example on the MSU team, Marcosus LeBlanc. LeBlanc played most of the season with felony charges filed against him. The only reason he was able to play was because the trial date had been pushed back until after the season. He was also suspended for two games during the season and was the main culprit responsible much of the hostility on the part of ASU's players during the playoff game. He started running his mouth the second he got off the bus in Boone and escalated the tension between the teams by walking through our pregame warn-ups talking smack and calling some of our players "country nigXXX". All which proved not to be very smart since one guy in particular he singled out, D Tackle Omar Byron, responded with 3 1/2 sacks and was in the MSU QB's face all day. All during the game LeBlanc and several of his pals were making gang signs & gestures to our bench and even had the audacity to single out head coach Jerry Moore for one of his more meaningful gestures. BTW, LeBlanc failed the NCAA mandatory drug test following the game. As a side note, LeBlanc originally signed with Boise State out of junior college, however he barely made it through fall practice before falling out of good graces with the Bronco coaching staff and was asked to leave.

Judging from these incidences and other things I heard from our players there is no way I'd want Kramer coaching my university's team. Obviously there are some mighty fine young men associated with the MSU program, but it is crystal clear Kramer's obsession with wining clouded his judgment enough to bring in some very suspect individuals. It is just sad his bad judgement has made a huge impact on the guys doing the right things and affected the guys on his staff and their families.

Just save it would you please? Your impression of MSU is based upon one player from one stinking game. Quit dragging them through the mud when your knowledge is completely off (LeBlanc having charges on him? Where the hell did you find that?!?)

[catbob]

Just save it would you please? Your impression of MSU is based upon one player from one stinking game. Quit dragging them through the mud when your knowledge is completely off (LeBlanc having charges on him? Where the hell did you find that?!?)

I'm sure it was in Mr. C's newsletter.

[CopperCat]

I'm sure it was in Mr. C's newsletter.

Quality. Yellow journalism at its best.

[PantherRob82]

I think that if the griz are also pointing out that this is an injustice, the rest of you guys should be able to see the truthfulness of which us CATS speak. Mike Kramer got hosed and we are all pissed about it. CATS and griz hate each other and if they are in agreement on this, then that should speak volumes of how bad the AD fouled up on this one.

I think regardless of who says what, it's just a conversation with two sides. Some people are going to feel differently than others. It's a controversial subject.

[PantherRob82]

I think Ryan Leaf is available :D


haha...he'll ALWAYS be available.

[PantherRob82]

Lulay, a starting quarterback for 3 1/2 seasons who served as an assistant coach last season, said Kramer shouldn't have taken the fall for what occurred away from the field.

“The sad part about it is that it was the actions of a few selfish, misguided individuals that ultimately led to this decision,” he said. “I know how much time and energy Kramer spent on maintaining a clean image within the football program. Since the first of these off-the-field incidents happened, he had tightened the ship even more.

“A coach is a leader and a mentor, not a babysitter of grown men.”

“I owe coach Kramer a lot,” Lulay said. “He and coach (Don) Bailey are the ones that found me and gave me the opportunity at Montana State.”


“There's nothing he can do,” Bolton said from Helena Friday night. “I couldn't believe that what former players did is falling back on (Kramer's) lap.”

“(The players) have to make their own choices.”

“We were on a zero-tolerance policy,” Barnhart said. “(Kramer) made it clear he would not put up with anything. (Athletic director Peter) Fields doesn't understand the situation if he's looking to change leadership.


“His energy and enthusiasm are infectious, he was always willing to accept blame, and he cared about and supported his players,” Lulay said. “I can only hope he will be remembered at Montana State as a classy, hardworking individual who brought many good things to this football program.”

Great statements from the players.

[HiddenGriz]

Kramer needed to go he recruited these kids. I saw a list here in Bozeman with all of the athletic academic awards and honor role not one from the football team. You can try to through this at Peter but he was not even the AD here when all of this started and he did not hire Kramer. The Cats will be way better off in the long run.

6 football players in 3 years arrested for selling drugs 2 of those for murder involving a drug ring and the assistant head coach arrested for selling drugs and the loss of scholarships because of piss poor academics enough said.. move on ...

[GOKATS]

Kramer needed to go he recruited these kids. I saw a list here in Bozeman with all of the athletic academic awards and honor role not one from the football team. You can try to through this at Peter but he was not even the AD here when all of this started and he did not hire Kramer. The Cats will be way better off in the long run.

6 football players in 3 years arrested for selling drugs 2 of those for murder involving a drug ring and the assistant head coach arrested for selling drugs and the loss of scholarships because of piss poor academics enough said.. move on ...

Nice try to cover your ass Peter.xsmiley_wix

[CopperCat]

Nice try to cover your ass Peter.xsmiley_wix

Maybe he doesn't have to cover his a$$ as much.

10:00 news in Bozo said that over 25 coaches have called MSU and are interested in the job. Of course they didn't say who they were, but it is good to see that at least people are lining up to interview. We'll be just fine this season. But we'll still miss you Krames.

[catbob]

Maybe he doesn't have to cover his a$$ as much.

10:00 news in Bozo said that over 25 coaches have called MSU and are interested in the job. Of course they didn't say who they were, but it is good to see that at least people are lining up to interview. We'll be just fine this season. But we'll still miss you Krames.

Fields will hire someone known for running a very tight ship who had a winning season in DII in 1980 and who has been coaching high school ever since. xcoffeex

[PantherRob82]

Maybe he doesn't have to cover his a$$ as much.

10:00 news in Bozo said that over 25 coaches have called MSU and are interested in the job. Of course they didn't say who they were, but it is good to see that at least people are lining up to interview. We'll be just fine this season. But we'll still miss you Krames.

I'm sure there is plenty of interest in the job. Hope it ends up as a positive for the Bobcats.

[CopperCat]

Fields will hire someone known for running a very tight ship who had a winning season in DII in 1980 and who has been coaching high school ever since. xcoffeex

If he does, his a$$ is grass.

[Bobcat in NC]

Fields will hire someone known for running a very tight ship who had a winning season in DII in 1980 and who has been coaching high school ever since. xcoffeex

Or maybe someone who's won 4 of the last 5 NAIA National Championships...xbowx

[catbob]

Or maybe someone who's won 4 of the last 5 NAIA National Championships...xbowx

xprayx

[CopperCat]

Or maybe someone who's won 4 of the last 5 NAIA National Championships...xbowx

I've said my prayers every night, and every other bobcat should too!!!!

Replace a great Mike with another great Mike!!!xbowx

[ndsubison]

Van Diest would be a fool to take that job at Mt. State...

xwhistlex

-

Would he? I see a lot of opportunity at MSU for the right coach. Or maybe I was a bit slow with your sarcasmxeyebrowx

[ndsubison]

You obviously know no more about the situation than I know about Lehigh athletics (trust me, I know absolutely nothing about Lehigh athletics).

Kramer was fired as the 'sacrificial lamb'- the AD should be the next one fired because of his decision. A few former athletes made stupid personal decisions- they will do time in penal institutions.

They just cost a helluva good man (coach) his job.

We all know a coach cannot babysit his players 24/7. Athletes will do what they do, as they are (chronologically speaking) adults. However, Kramer recruited these guys. He had to have some inkling to their character and maybe closed his eyes for a playoff run. I don't know, but it's happened before. Take NDSU for example: Rocky Hager was head coach back in the late 80's-early 90's. He won 2 NC's and is still the most winning coach in NDSU history. That says a lot, as he was preceded by some very good coaches. The local paper (Fargo Forum) used to run headlines about another NC or another deep playoff run followed by a police blotter with basically the same names on it. As long as you're winning, people tend to look the other way. Eventually it has to stop. Hager got fired and several yrs later was inducted into the Bison Hall Of Fame. What does that tell you? Thanks but no thanks??? He was replaced by Bob Babich, who brought in a certain amount of accountability. With that he also brought in almost a decade of mediocrity on the field. It is a rare find when you can have it both ways. Now we have Craig Bohl, who by all accounts seems to be running a tight ship on all fronts. I don't ever foresee him getting fired by NDSU but I do see him leaving for a higher profile job within the next couple of yrs. Then we do it all over again. Welcome to college football. Montana State will be fine in the long run, and I wish you all the best of luck. xpeacex

GO BISON!!!