The Absolutely Awful Patriot League

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Just when you think the league can't reach a "new low" they find a way to do it. With Holy Cross's loss to Lafayette today the Leopards (3-7, 3-1) are now in the driver's seat for the automatic bid into the playoffs. The league is also flirting with not having a single team finish with a winning record. I have to believe that would be a 1-AA/FCS first? This is after having just one team finish with a winning record in 2017 (Colgate) and 2018 (Colgate). Should Lafayette win the league they would be first 7 loss participant. It would be the third time this decade the PL sent a playoff rep with a losing record.

Standings
1. Lafayette (3-7, 3-1)
2. Holy Cross (5-5, 3-1)
3. Lehigh (4-5, 3-2)
4. Bucknell (2-7, 2-2)
5. Colgate (3-8, 2-3)
6. Fordham (3-7, 1-3)
7. Georgetown (5-4, 1-3), Hoyas have a D3 win against Catholic U....

[kdinva]

Didn't Lehigh get the auto bid 3 years ago at 5-6?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Didn't Lehigh get the auto bid 3 years ago at 5-6?

In 2017! Lafayette was the first to accomplish the feat in 2013....

[kdinva]

In 2017! Lafayette was the first to accomplish the feat in 2013....

thanks for the correction...

- - - Updated - - -


In 2017! Lafayette was the first to accomplish the feat in 2013....

thanks for the correction...

[mmiller_34]

At least there is parity

[dbackjon]

At least there is parody


FTFY

[bonarae]

This begs a question for us all: Should there be a floor for the number of wins for ANY playoff bid in the FCS? I'd say there should be, preferably 6. xtwocentsx

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

This begs a question for us all: Should there be a floor for the number of wins for ANY playoff bid in the FCS? I'd say there should be, preferably 6. xtwocentsx

I absolutely think there should be! The playoffs are watered down enough. It doesn't need truly bad teams backing their way into the field. This isn't basketball! How do you determine which team is basically handed a first round bye? If my best player got hurt having to play an awful first round playoff opponent i'd be ticked....

[Sader87]

Please, it's not a good league now but neither are about half the FCS leagues.

Not a fan of many of the restrictions it self-imposes but it's truly D1 college football that is representative of its student bodies.

God forbid we couldn't send a representative to the playoffs that 98% of America don't know exist.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Please, it's not a good league now but neither are about half the FCS leagues.

Not a fan of many of the restrictions it self-imposes but it's truly D1 college football that is representative of its student bodies.

God forbid we couldn't send a representative to the playoffs that 98% of America don't know exist.

The PL is reaching a historic level of ineptness. You wish half of FCS was this bad!

I thought PL students were high achievers and folks that seek out competition knowing they'll succeed? The current level of football in the league is awful. Not at all reflective of the student body.

[Sader87]

Relax....most teams are in various forms of rebuilding.

Calling the kids who play football "awful" is very classy....go follow Temple and take a break from following PL football if it upsets you so much.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

ax....most teams are in various forms of rebuilding.

Calling the kids who play football "awful" is very classy....go follow Temple and take a break from following PL football if it upsets you so much.

You're clearly hitting the sauce again '87. I obviously didn't call the players "awful". But the league/teams are. The teams are undermanned and the coaching isn't good enough to make up for it. Going to be a fun night!

Thankfully I have a lot of other football things that interest's be outside of the woeful PL! But it's terribleness is a trainwreck you can't help but watch/be fascinated by.

[Sader87]

The amount of posts you make on PL football would suggest otherwise....

It is what it is....good but low level D1 football....fun to follow but not worth repeatedly bashing the kids or coaches.

It's a great level...currently watching Dartmouth-Princeton ovah the NFL minor league game LSU-Bama.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The amount of posts you make on PL football would suggest otherwise....

It is what it is....good but low level D1 football....fun to follow but not worth repeatedly bashing the kids or coaches.

It's a great level...currently watching Dartmouth-Princeton ovah the NFL minor league game LSU-Bama.

I'm not "bashing" anyone. Just calling the league's performance what it is. You're grasping at straws.

I'll be in Fargo next week for the NDSU-South Dakota game! This will be my second time seeing the Bison at the Fargo Dome. Can't wait! I was suppose to be in Durham, NC tonight (I have my ticket in hand) for the ND-Duke game but the North Dakota trip prevented me from going.

I'm just a huge fan of sports in general! I love it! I'm also watching the Princeton-Dartmouth game....along with Kansas State-Texas, LSU-Alabama and USC-Arizona State!!!!

[Sader87]

You're not "bashing anyone" but you start a thread entitled "The Absolutely Awful Patriot League."

Gotcha

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

You're not "bashing anyone" but you start a thread entitled "The Absolutely Awful Patriot League."

Gotcha

What in the world are you talking about? You're drunk......

[Sader87]

Go watch the Owls the rest of the year and let us suffer the last couple of weeks without your negativity ...be best for all involved.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Go watch the Owls the rest of the year and let us suffer the last couple of weeks without your negativity ...be best for all involved.

Are you currently in 1987 or 2009? What in the world are you talking about "negativity"? Are you that in denial about reality? This is some twilight level whackiness....

[Southsider]

Awful and pathetic!

[Sader87]

You guys are just mad you have Gilmore as a head coach ;)

Very disappointing loss for HC today but I like the trajectory we are in now moving forward.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

You guys are just mad you have Gilmore as a head coach ;)

Very disappointing loss for HC today but I like the trajectory we are in now moving forward.

HC's current trajectory under Chesney in year two is that of a .500 or slightly under .500 program. xcoffeex

The league has fallen so far. What are the expectations anymore?

[Bisonator]

They shouldn't get an autobid that's for sure. Yuck!

[Derby City Duke]

PL = Putrid League this year.

[Southsider]

But do the powers that be at the PL schools care??? How can they sit back and watch this? CHANGE THE RULES!!!

[DFW HOYA]

It is what it is....good but low level D1 football....fun to follow but not worth repeatedly bashing the kids or coaches.


Not bashing coaches or players but it's not that good.

[van]

Not bashing coaches or players but it's not that good.

+1

[bonarae]

Over on the FCS discussion group on FB, I posed another question for the playoff committee - should they be exempting the PL from the playoffs this season and put a more deserving at-large in the PL autobid's place? Those there disagree with me. But they should also propose a policy preventing autobids below .500 from entering the playoffs at all (a la FBS bowl system).

[Sader87]

HC under Chesney is 8-3 in its last 11 FCS games, 7-1 in its last 8 PL games.

Again, disappointing loss today but how many games do you win losing the turnover differential 5-0? Still only lost 23-20.

HC, despite the loss today, is heading in the right direction.

The league is down in total but much of that is due to many teams rebuilding with new (er) coaches, some still learning how to recruit/field a team with scholarships.

It is what it is....without red-shirts and other restrictions...the ceiling is pretty low for PL teams in today's D1 football world.

[93henfan]

Can Delaware join? We fit the geographic footprint and the typical 4-6 record. We're coming up on one full decade of irrelevancy! Let's do this.

[CHIP72]

Maybe Villanova should get the Patriot League automatic bid this season; they have 3 PL wins and are undefeated against PL teams.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sader87]

Delaware does fit the PL profile historically, geographically and somewhat institutionally, above and beyond your mediocre record this year. :)

[ngineer]

The PL is reaching a historic level of ineptness. You wish half of FCS was this bad!

I thought PL students were high achievers and folks that seek out competition knowing they'll succeed? The current level of football in the league is awful. Not at all reflective of the student body.

They do represent the student body academically, which is what is intended by the AI.

[ngineer]

If there is a rule about having to have a winning overall record in order to have the League's autobid, the will dissuade schools from 'scheduling up' with some of the FCS power conferences and lower tier FBS schools.

[katss07]

My xtwocentsx

If you win your conference you should get a bid, simple as that. However this is a bad look for the FCS. Monmouth or Villanova is going to end up with a nice first round game against an opponent with 4 wins.

[Bisonator]

My xtwocentsx

If you win your conference you should get a bid, simple as that. However this is a bad look for the FCS. Monmouth or Villanova is going to end up with a nice first round game against an opponent with 4 wins.
Sorry not when your whole conference is complete garbage. The conference does not deserve an autobid. All there wins are basically in conference against each other. They simply suck.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

My xtwocentsx

If you win your conference you should get a bid, simple as that. However this is a bad look for the FCS. Monmouth or Villanova is going to end up with a nice first round game against an opponent with 4 wins.

Villanova is already 3-0 against the PL this year with easy wins over Colgate, Lehigh and Bucknell. Monmouth already beat Lafayette in the regular season so not sure that would be a reasonable matchup. If Lafayette wins out and claims the title they'll be 5-7.

The best thing to do would be to send them to the #9 ranked team irregardless of location. If it's Missoula, MT then ship their butts there.

[katss07]

Villanova is already 3-0 against the PL this year with easy wins over Colgate, Lehigh and Bucknell. Monmouth already beat Lafayette in the regular season so not sure that would be a reasonable matchup. If Lafayette wins out and claims the title they'll be 5-7.

The best thing to do would be to send them to the #9 ranked team irregardless of location. If it's Missoula, MT then ship their butts there.
Whoever wins the conference will stay in the Northeast for their first round game. Has a PL team ever left the NE for a first round game under the current format?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Whoever wins the conference will stay in the Northeast for their first round game. Has a PL team ever left the NE for a first round game under the current format?

Fordham was an at-large selection when they got shipped to Chattanooga in 2015. That's the only "long distance" trip since the 24 team format was implemented.

[PAllen]

This begs a question for us all: Should there be a floor for the number of wins for ANY playoff bid in the FCS? I'd say there should be, preferably 6. xtwocentsx

Yes. A winning record against D-I opposition should be a prerequisite to a bid (even an auto-bid).

[katss07]

Probably a stupid question, but how is the Auto-Bid determined when teams share the conference title? Head to head?

[ngineer]

Whoever wins the conference will stay in the Northeast for their first round game. Has a PL team ever left the NE for a first round game under the current format?

Yes,, I think in 2010 we were sent to Northern Iowa in the first round and won 14-7.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Yes,, I think in 2010 we were sent to Northern Iowa in the first round and won 14-7.

That was the first year of 20 teams. The format has since changed.

[katss07]

Yes,, I think in 2010 we were sent to Northern Iowa in the first round and won 14-7.
Stony Brook was sent to Huntsville in 2011.

Times (and formats) have changed. I’m no expert on PL football, but I doubt their champs leave the eastern time zone. I do remember that Lehigh win though!

[Southsider]

Time to end PL football. Based on the makeup of the various schools it can’t work. LU, CU, FU, and HC need to save their programs and pull the plug. It’s been clear for a long time that there are no outsiders willing to sign up for a doomed league. The world has changed. The PL won’t!

[DFW HOYA]

Time to end PL football. Based on the makeup of the various schools it can’t work. LU, CU, FU, and HC need to save their programs and pull the plug. It’s been clear for a long time that there are no outsiders willing to sign up for a doomed league. The world has changed. The PL won’t!

Except that...those four schools comprise a working majority over Bucknell, Lafayette, and Georgetown. If they really wanted to affect change, they could do so. But they don't, and so they won't.

[aceinthehole]

My xtwocentsx

If you win your conference you should get a bid, simple as that. However this is a bad look for the FCS. Monmouth or Villanova is going to end up with a nice first round game against an opponent with 4 wins.

Agreed. Sure, the PL is down (really down), but it really doesn't matter. The league champ deserves the AQ bid, period.

[bonarae]

Agreed. Sure, the PL is down (really down), but it really doesn't matter. The league champ deserves the AQ bid, period.

But then... this should inspire the FCS playoff committee to make a subtle but significant change for next year. IFF (if and only if) the PL does this again next year, then it's time for an at-large (from outside the Northeast region) to take the said autobid's place.

[aceinthehole]

But then... this should inspire the FCS playoff committee to make a subtle but significant change for next year. IFF (if and only if) the PL does this again next year, then it's time for an at-large (from outside the Northeast region) to take the said autobid's place.

No. Every league deserves EQUAL ACCESS to the playoffs. That is why we have AQ and at-large bids.

I (along with many others) made the argument pre-2010 that the NEC was being unfairly excluded from the FCS playoffs without a AQ bid. They principles haven't changed.

In fact, the current setup - 10 AQs and 14 at-large, allows for the 2 more conferences to request a bid (I'm looking at you Ivy League).

[MR. CHICKEN]

Agreed. Sure, the PL is down (really down), but it really doesn't matter. The league champ deserves the AQ bid, period.

...AGREED.......NCAA...IS ABOUT....THE COMPLETE COLLEGE/ATHLETIC EXPERIENCE......AN' FEEL....LESSER STRENGTH CONFERENCES....SHOOD ENJOY.......THOSE EXPERIENCES LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.....AWK!

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

...AGREED.......NCAA...IS ABOUT....THE COMPLETE COLLEGE/ATHLETIC EXPERIENCE......AN' FEEL....LESSER STRENGTH CONFERENCES....SHOOD ENJOY.......THOSE EXPERIENCES LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.....AWK!

Lehigh did not deserve to be in the playoffs in 2017. i would have been more than happy to see their season end following their win over Lafayette. Having to be a sacrificial lamb to Stony Brook in the playoffs meant nothing but embarrassment.

[Leopard Loyalist]

Lehigh did not deserve to be in the playoffs in 2017. i would have been more than happy to see their season end following their win over Lafayette. Having to be a sacrificial lamb to Stony Brook in the playoffs meant nothing but embarrassment.
Do you think the players on that 2017 team would agree with you?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Do you think the players on that 2017 team would agree with you?

If nothing I bet they were extremely disappointed/embarrassed to be a preseason Top 20 team that finished 5-7 and got destroyed in the playoffs. They were a bad team that only made the playoffs because the PL was awful then too.

I'm sure there are teams that finish 1-10 that would love the opportunity to play in the playoffs. Unfortunately, making kids happy is not the priority. It's about assembling the best teams in country to conduct a national championship tournament. Lehigh wasn't even one of the top 60 teams in FCS in 2017.

[aceinthehole]

It's about assembling the best teams in country to conduct a national championship tournament.

Actually, that's not the only (or even primary) purpose of NCAA Championships tournaments.

It's about 1) equal access and 2) crowning a national championship - these objectives are not mutually exclusive.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Actually, that's not the only (or even primary) purpose of NCAA Championships tournaments.

It's about 1) equal access and 2) crowning a national championship - these objectives are not mutually exclusive.

Which is fine. But there still should be minimum requirements for AQ's. There's minimum's for at-larges iirc? 6 D1 wins? So precedent has already been made regarding a defined filtering process for those teams. That should also apply to the AQ's.

The only conference this would even affect is the PL due to the league reaching new lows of patheticness. Perhaps HC will win out finish 7-5 and get some help to save the PL some level of respect.

[aceinthehole]

Which is fine. But there still should be minimum requirements for AQ's. There's minimum's for at-larges iirc? 6 D1 wins? So precedent has already been made regarding a defined filtering process for those teams. That should also apply to the AQ's.

The only conference this would even affect is the PL due to the league reaching new lows of patheticness. Perhaps HC will win out finish 7-5 and get some help to save the PL some level of respect.

Again, I know you understand the concept, but your are (rightfully) frustrated with the performance of the PL, not the NCAA format.

As long as the league abides by NCAA rules and regardless of how "weak" the PL Champ is, their AQ bid is safe as it furthers the stated objective of "equal access." The concept protects leagues/teams that do not have the resources to invest to be a national champions, but have competed with peers and won a conference championship.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Again, I know you understand the concept, but your are (rightfully) frustrated with the performance of the PL, not the NCAA format.

As long as the league abides by NCAA rules and regardless of how "weak" the PL Champ is, their AQ bid is safe as it furthers the stated objective of "equal access." The concept protects leagues/teams that do not have the resources to invest to be a national champions, but have competed with peers and won a conference championship.The PL has the resources to invest to be national champions. In fact their investments are among the highest in FCS. It's the league's own self imposed restrictions that have castrated the programs. The PL is literally saying "we have no interest in competing".

[aceinthehole]

The PL has the resources to invest to be national champions. In fact their investments are among the highest in FCS. It's the league's own self imposed restrictions that have castrated the programs. The PL is literally saying "we have no interest in competing".

No argument here. The "equal access" doctrine certainly protects the NEC and PFL teams in football, but it is also the same principle that protects the PL's bid in the Men's Basketball or Baseball Championships.

[MR. CHICKEN]

If nothing I bet they were extremely disappointed/embarrassed to be a preseason Top 20 team that finished 5-7 and got destroyed in the playoffs. They were a bad team that only made the playoffs because the PL was awful then too.

I'm sure there are teams that finish 1-10 that would love the opportunity to play in the playoffs. Unfortunately, making kids happy is not the priority. It's about assembling the best teams in country to conduct a national championship tournament. Lehigh wasn't even one of the top 60 teams in FCS in 2017.

...YOUSE BETTER READ DUH NCAA GUIDELINES.......LOSIN' HAPPENS TA DUH STRONG CONFERENCES TOO.....OWN-LAH ONE BAG UH BLING.....FO' WINNER.......HENCE...PLAYOFFS FO' ALL......AWK!

[Bisonator]

I guess we should just hand out participation trophy's since everyone needs the same experience.....xrolleyesx

[MR. CHICKEN]

......PLAYOFFS.......R UH LIFE'S LESSON.....WHEN YER ON DUH SOUTH END.....OF....UH CURB STOMPIN'.......LIKE WHEN DUH FRIDGE JES' QUIT.....BABY HAS DUH COLLICK.....YER BOSS JES' GAVE YA UH BOX......TA CLEAN OUT DUH WORK SPACE.....AN' WHEN YA GET HOME........DUH BACK DOOR SLAMS........PATRIOT NEEDS TA FEEL ALL DUH EMOTIONS........JES' LIKE DUH SEMI-FINALIST......WHO'S STANDIN' IN BIZONSSSSS WAY.....AWK!

[gsf23nd]

Please, it's not a good league now but neither are about half the FCS leagues.

Not a fan of many of the restrictions it self-imposes but it's truly D1 college football that is representative of its student bodies.

God forbid we couldn't send a representative to the playoffs that 98% of America don't know exist.

But do you really deserve to go to the playoffs with a losing record?

[Bisonator]

......PLAYOFFS.......R UH LIFE'S LESSON.....WHEN YER ON DUH SOUTH END.....OF....UH CURB STOMPIN'.......LIKE WHEN DUH FRIDGE JES' QUIT.....BABY HAS DUH COLLICK.....YER BOSS JES' GAVE YA UH BOX......TA CLEAN OUT DUH WORK SPACE.....AN' WHEN YA GET HOME........DUH BACK DOOR SLAMS........PATRIOT NEEDS TA FEEL ALL DUH EMOTIONS........JES' LIKE DUH SEMI-FINALIST......WHO'S STANDIN' IN BIZONSSSSS WAY.....AWK!
They felt the emotions all year, that's why they have more losses then wins. You want to be part of the playoffs win half your games. No 5-6 teams should be in the playoffs period. WIN YOUR ****ING GAMES!!!

[POD Knows]

They felt the emotions all year, that's why they have more losses then wins. You want to be part of the playoffs win half your games. No 5-6 teams should be in the playoffs period. WIN YOUR ****ING GAMES!!!The NFL has had teams in the playoffs with losing records, maybe they should adopt the same practices. I personally don't like the 24 team playoffs, too many teams. Rewrite the rules, go to 16 teams and seed them all but there are issues with that as well I guess.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The NFL has had teams in the playoffs with losing records, maybe they should adopt the same practices. I personally don't like the 24 team playoffs, too many teams. Rewrite the rules, go to 16 teams and seed them all but there are issues with that as well I guess.

I'm totally in agreement that 16 teams would make for a much better playoff field. It's way too watered down now.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I'm totally in agreement that 16 teams would make for a much better playoff field. It's way too watered down now.

A 16-team playoff is currently not an option due to NCAA rule requiring an equal or greater number of at-large bids versus automatic berths in every tournament. This rule is why the field expanded to 20 in the first place due to the Pioneer and NEC receiving auto-bids in 2010. Currently, ten auto-bids are awarded among the 13 FCS conferences (no auto for SWAC, MEAC, IVY) so a 20-team playoff is the smallest allowable field. And I would be all for that.

[aceinthehole]

A 16-team playoff is currently not an option due to NCAA rule requiring an equal or greater number of at-large bids versus automatic berths in every tournament. This rule is why the field expanded to 20 in the first place due to the Pioneer and NEC receiving auto-bids in 2010. Currently, ten auto-bids are awarded among the 13 FCS conferences (no auto for SWAC, MEAC, IVY) so a 20-team playoff is the smallest allowable field. And I would be all for that.

Yes, a 20-team field is the minimum, but that format requires a First Round of 8 teams (4 games), and 12 teams get a bye to the Second Round (only the top-5 were seeded)

Instead a 24-team field has 8 First Round games (16 teams) and rewards the Top-8 seeded teams with a bye to the Second Round.

If you really want to reward the best teams in the field, then the current 24-team format is preferable.

[NY Crusader 2010]

But do you really deserve to go to the playoffs with a losing record?

Simple answer: no

More complex answer: Losing teams either have or could make the postseason in just about any sport at any level from HS to pro. Most interesting example: In New York State a couple of years ago, a girls basketball team won the STATE CHAMPIONSHIP with a losing record. Nazareth HS came out of the regular season at 11-20, playing in the Catholic High School League in NYC. They went on to win the Catholic city tournament in their division, then went on to defeat the Catholic league teams from LI and Buffalo as well as the top public and private schools in the state en route to a championship and 18-20 overall record.

Hypothetically speaking, is it possible that a league could add a caveat to determining it's conference auto-bid for the FCS playoffs? Would the PL, for example, be allowed to add a league rule stating that its auto-bid must go to a team with 6 or more overall wins? Not sure if there is any known precedent for that.

[youwouldno]

I would think a league could decline the auto-bid in a particular year? Not sure what the rules say about that, but it seems like FCS conferences can do essentially whatever they want when it comes to the post-season, from not participating to creating their own bowl, etc.

But, no league would ever do that . . . there's no incentive. Blowouts happen, but not accepting a bid at all would be a really bad look.

[Sader87]

I think AL McGuire's Marquette was the last team to turn down an NCAA bid in the early 70s....forget the exact reason....went to the NIT instead.

[DFW HOYA]

I think AL McGuire's Marquette was the last team to turn down an NCAA bid in the early 70s....forget the exact reason....went to the NIT instead.

McGuire was irked that Marquette was sent to Ft. Worth for the 1970 NCAA's instead of Dayton where Kentucky was slotted. Bob Knight turned down an NCAA bid for Army in 1968 to play in the NIT; Army has never received a bid before or since.

On a (slightly) PL note, Georgetown turned down an NIT bid in 2002 when it was told it would not be awarded a home game anytime in the brackets due to its facilities. Should the Hoyas ever qualify for the football playoffs, i would not be surprised to hear a similar refrain.

[Bisonoline]

I think AL McGuire's Marquette was the last team to turn down an NCAA bid in the early 70s....forget the exact reason....went to the NIT instead.

Back then If I remember correctly the NIT was much more prestigious.

[Derby City Duke]

Back then If I remember correctly the NIT was much more prestigious.

Yes, the NIT carried much more importance through at least the 50s and 60s. Not sure when the pendulum swung to the NCAA tournament. The NCAA used to be a 48-team field as late as 1983.

[ngineer]

If nothing I bet they were extremely disappointed/embarrassed to be a preseason Top 20 team that finished 5-7 and got destroyed in the playoffs. They were a bad team that only made the playoffs because the PL was awful then too.

I'm sure there are teams that finish 1-10 that would love the opportunity to play in the playoffs. Unfortunately, making kids happy is not the priority. It's about assembling the best teams in country to conduct a national championship tournament. Lehigh wasn't even one of the top 60 teams in FCS in 2017.

Disagree. It's not about this. It is about each NCAA FCS conference sending their best team to the playoffs. Just because we play by different rules doesn't mean the students don't like the challenge. Any college athlete, despite being a significant underdog, relishes the challenge. The greatest moments in sports are when the big upset occurs. Why was Lehigh in the NCAA basketball tournament in 2012 when they beat Duke? Under your rationale, Lehigh should not have been in the competition because there were surely big power conference schools that were better than Lehigh at that time. For the love of the game and the competition.

[CHIP72]

Yes, the NIT carried much more importance through at least the 50s and 60s. Not sure when the pendulum swung to the NCAA tournament. The NCAA used to be a 48-team field as late as 1983.

The NIT became less prominent when the NCAA started allowing a second team from a conference to make the NCAA Tournament in the mid-1970s and especially when an unlimited number of teams per conference were allowed to appear in the NCAA Tournament starting in the late 1970s.

[Sader87]

I think the NCAA hoop tourney became the more prestigious post-season tourney probably in the late 1950s or so. The NIT was still very well thought of as Chip mentioned, until the mid/late 70s before the NCAA added more teams etc

[PAllen]

But do you really deserve to go to the playoffs with a losing record?

No one from any conference should go to the playoffs without a winning record against D-I opposition. Leagues don't need to forfeit their autobid going forward. They should just have to present a candidate who can win more than they lose.

[PAllen]

The FCS playoffs are about determining the SINGLE best team in the country. To that end, I support autobids for every conference. The at large slots should be for those teams that tie for the league title but lose a tie breaker and have a superior OOC performance. If you don't win your conference, you have a tough argument to convince that you're the best team in your conference. If you're not the best team in your conference, then you're not the best team in the country. That's why I think that 16 teams is plenty if only the NCAA would do away with the 50% at large rule.

All that said, if you can't win more than half of your games, you have an almost impossible argument to make that you are the best team in the country. I mean, I guess if you were a PL team who in a 12 game year played at Hawaii (gaining 13th game) and rounded out your OOC against the SEC with a bunch of really close loses, then you swept conference play you would gave a pretty good argument. Then again, in that scenario, you did it to yourself. So I have no sympathy.

Again, the autobids should absolutely stay. I just think a winning record against D I opponents should be a prerequisite for qualifying.

[Sader87]

I posted this in the Pick em thread, but much of the overall poor records, save for GTown, can be laid at mostly very difficult OOC games by most schools. 5 FBS games, lot of games against the better CAA and Ivy teams etc....there are actually not that many OOC losses that would be considered "bad losses" imo.

Not saying "all is well" ala Kevin Bacon in Animal House but it does give the PL teams records some perspective this year...that with just about every team in some sort of rebuild this year as well.

[Gangtackle11]

Who wins the 3-way tie breaker between HC, Lehigh, & Laffy? xpeacex

[DFW HOYA]

I posted this in the Pick em thread, but much of the overall poor records, save for GTown, can be laid at mostly very difficult OOC games by most schools. 5 FBS games, lot of games against the better CAA and Ivy teams etc....there are actually not that many OOC losses that would be considered "bad losses" imo.

At least the other schools can get very difficult OOC games. The Georgetown schedules figure to get even softer as more I-AA schools pass on playing them.

[Ivytalk]

Who wins the 3-way tie breaker between HC, Lehigh, & Laffy? xpeacex
Villanova!

[Gangtackle11]

Villanova!

lol. Funny from a guy whose team’s season is about to end. xpeacex

[Ivytalk]

lol. Funny from a guy whose team’s season is about to end. xpeacex
Why don’t you just take that Holy Cross rejection letter out of your desk and read it again.

[Gangtackle11]

Ignoring the Ivy League troll/bore. Here is the Patriot League tie-breaker rules:

Football:
a. If a tie exists, the higher seed will go to the team that won the most head-to-head League contest(s) played against the other team(s) involved in the tie.

b. If a tie still exists, a comparison of League records will be made between the tied institutions starting at the highest seed and continuing through the lowest seed, if necessary.

c. If a tie still exists, a comparison of records against common out-of-league opponents will be made;

d. If a tie still exists, a committee consisting of the athletics directors of each of the institutions not involved in the tie will make a final decision. The committee should consider various factors including, but not limited to, the following examples. Note: the examples are listed in no particular order:

i). Strength of schedule

ii). Overall record

iii). Computer rankings

iv). Performance during second half of season

The committee will meet immediately following the conclusion of the final game of the season’s final weekend. A majority vote of the members of the committee will be needed to determine the champion.

[cx500d]

Who wins the 3-way tie breaker between HC, Lehigh, & Laffy? xpeacex
Let’s give it to the pards, since they haven’t had much to celebrate.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Ignoring the Ivy League troll/bore. Here is the Patriot League tie-breaker rules:

Football:
a. If a tie exists, the higher seed will go to the team that won the most head-to-head League contest(s) played against the other team(s) involved in the tie.

b. If a tie still exists, a comparison of League records will be made between the tied institutions starting at the highest seed and continuing through the lowest seed, if necessary.

c. If a tie still exists, a comparison of records against common out-of-league opponents will be made;

d. If a tie still exists, a committee consisting of the athletics directors of each of the institutions not involved in the tie will make a final decision. The committee should consider various factors including, but not limited to, the following examples. Note: the examples are listed in no particular order:

i). Strength of schedule

ii). Overall record

iii). Computer rankings

iv). Performance during second half of season

The committee will meet immediately following the conclusion of the final game of the season’s final weekend. A majority vote of the members of the committee will be needed to determine the champion.

For the sake of argument:

a. Lehigh, Lafayette, Holy Cross would all have gone 1-1 against each other.
b. It would go against tied teams. In this case, it would depend on Bucknell.

If Bucknell goes 2-0, they'd be involved in the tiebreaker (different scenario)
If Bucknell goes 1-1, they'd be in the next pool of teams (3-loss teams, with potentially Colgate, Fordham, or Georgetown).
If Bucknell goes 0-2, then they'd be in the lowest rung (4 loss teams).

It's way too complicated to determine based on b) until we have a better idea where Fordham, Bucknell, Colgate, and GTown will sit at the end of the year.

IMVHO, the best possible outcome for the Patriot League is for Holy Cross to win out and Lafayette to lose to Colgate and/or Lehigh. Holy Cross at 7-5 would at least be somewhat respectable with a win over UNH. 4-7 Lafayette, 4-7 Bucknell (yes, still possible) or 5-6 Lehigh would be a horrible look for the league. 7-5 Holy Cross would at least have decent optics. But we'll see. I'm not confident picking anything right now in this league.

Lehigh can finish at 6-5 or 5-6 and win the league, too, but the optics are still not terrific even at 6-5. Nova, UC Davis of course are good opponents (but Lehigh didn't make it a game against either). Holy Cross is a good opponent, but a loss. St. Francis was not bad, not great. Losing to Bucknell is awful.

[DFW HOYA]

Putting aside tiebreakers, how does the PL fix this mess? Or do they even try?

[RichH2]

Putting aside tiebreakers, how does the PL fix this mess? Or do they even try?

Every team in the PL, save Hoyas, are in some phase of rebuilding. New coaches and staffs at all but Hoyas and Colgate. A rather perfect storm insofar as PL competitiveness OOC. The limiting facors imposed by the PL necessitated,at least in part, the need to change coaches and rebuild programs.Those same factors make rebuilding that much more.difficult. Other than Ivies, most of our opponents redshirt and have 63 schollies. NEC capped at 45 but allowed to supplement with need aid up to 63.
Bringing new coaches a needed start to the process of fixing our current football situation.
The next steps must include permitting 63 schollies plus at least some redshirting other than just medical.
The league wide AI is not likely to be abandoned,although I believe it should be. The AI is not all that relevant as admission standards are mostly higher than the PL floor. It remains relebant tho in lax and basketball.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Putting aside tiebreakers, how does the PL fix this mess? Or do they even try?

That's the subject of my latest piece. I'll start a new thread.

[ngineer]

I think the PL Presidents need to change the scholarship limit and allow supplementing with grants in aid. If a kid qualifies for liberal grants in aid, why must a scholarship have to be used, as long as we have a 63 cap.

[clenz]

I posted this in the Pick em thread, but much of the overall poor records, save for GTown, can be laid at mostly very difficult OOC games by most schools. 5 FBS games, lot of games against the better CAA and Ivy teams etc....there are actually not that many OOC losses that would be considered "bad losses" imo.

Not saying "all is well" ala Kevin Bacon in Animal House but it does give the PL teams records some perspective this year...that with just about every team in some sort of rebuild this year as well.I guess we have different definitions of what "very difficult OOC constitutes

[Sader87]

I guess we have different definitions of what "very difficult OOC constitutes

For a program that has to play within the PL rules/regulations, these are very difficult schedules in 2019. Here again are the OOC PL losses this year:

HC: @Navy, @Syracuse, @Yale and Harvard....nearly all FCS schools would have a very difficult time winning 3 or 4 of those games.
LC: @W&M, @ Monmouth, SHU, @Albany, Penn, @Princeton....admittedly not brutal in total, but still a pretty tough slate with a couple potential playoff teams and a very good Princeton.
LU: St Francis, @Villanova, @UC-Davis....SFU probably a bad home loss but many FCS teams lose those 2 on the road.
BU: @Temple, @SHU, Villanova, Princeton, @Towson....again, I think many lose 3 0r 4 of those
CU: Villanova, @Air Force, @W&M, Maine, @Dartmouth...see above
FU: CCSU, @Ball St, @Stony Brook, @Yale....most FCS lose 2 or 3 of these imo
GU @Davidson..... well, yeah...ya got me there :)

In total though, that's a tough slate of OOC games for any conference....only probably the MVFC, CAA or Big Sky go .500 or so playing those schedules.

Northern Iowa loses 1, 2 or 3 games against these schedules save for GTown imo.

[ngineer]

For a program that has to play within the PL rules/regulations, these are very difficult schedules in 2019. Here again are the OOC PL losses this year:

HC: @Navy, @Syracuse, @Yale and Harvard....nearly all FCS schools would have a very difficult time winning 3 or 4 of those games.
LC: @W&M, @ Monmouth, SHU, @Albany, Penn, @Princeton....admittedly not brutal in total, but still a pretty tough slate with a couple potential playoff teams and a very good Princeton.
LU: St Francis, @Villanova, @UC-Davis....SFU probably a bad home loss but many FCS teams lose those 2 on the road.
BU: @Temple, @SHU, Villanova, Princeton, @Towson....again, I think many lose 3 0r 4 of those
CU: Villanova, @Air Force, @W&M, Maine, @Dartmouth...see above
FU: CCSU, @Ball St, @Stony Brook, @Yale....most FCS lose 2 or 3 of these imo
GU @Davidson..... well, yeah...ya got me there :)

In total though, that's a tough slate of OOC games for any conference....only probably the MVFC, CAA or Big Sky go .500 or so playing those schedules.

Northern Iowa loses 1, 2 or 3 games against these schedules save for GTown imo.

That SFU game was really a 'win' that will never be recorded. PL apologized for the referee's mistake in not calling a touchdown that was scored. They will have their hands full with SHU this Saturday, especially if the OL is without several starters. Unfortunately, the mark of a good team is having depth so when these injuries occur there is personnel to step up. We shall see.

[clenz]

For a program that has to play within the PL rules/regulations, these are very difficult schedules in 2019. Here again are the OOC PL losses this year:

HC: @Navy, @Syracuse, @Yale and Harvard....nearly all FCS schools would have a very difficult time winning 3 or 4 of those games.
LC: @W&M, @ Monmouth, SHU, @Albany, Penn, @Princeton....admittedly not brutal in total, but still a pretty tough slate with a couple potential playoff teams and a very good Princeton.
LU: St Francis, @Villanova, @UC-Davis....SFU probably a bad home loss but many FCS teams lose those 2 on the road.
BU: @Temple, @SHU, Villanova, Princeton, @Towson....again, I think many lose 3 0r 4 of those
CU: Villanova, @Air Force, @W&M, Maine, @Dartmouth...see above
FU: CCSU, @Ball St, @Stony Brook, @Yale....most FCS lose 2 or 3 of these imo
GU @Davidson..... well, yeah...ya got me there :)

In total though, that's a tough slate of OOC games for any conference....only probably the MVFC, CAA or Big Sky go .500 or so playing those schedules.

Northern Iowa loses 1, 2 or 3 games against these schedules save for GTown imo.


HC: 2-2 at worst
LC: 5-1 at worst...computers have UNI favored at Princeton as well so based on that 6-0
LU: 3-1...nova only potential pss up and computers favor UNI
BU: 4-1 based on computer rankings.
CU: 4-1 see above
FU: 3-1 at worst...and I'm not sure an
GU undefeated


This UNI team doesn't beat Ball State. Every computer has UNI ranked a head of Ball State.

[Franks Tanks]

That SFU game was really a 'win' that will never be recorded. PL apologized for the referee's mistake in not calling a touchdown that was scored. They will have their hands full with SHU this Saturday, especially if the OL is without several starters. Unfortunately, the mark of a good team is having depth so when these injuries occur there is personnel to step up. We shall see.

I am interested to see how Lehigh fares against SHU. We moved the ball well against them and Shoemaker had nearly 500 yards of total offense. The Lafayette defense got absolutely killed in that contest however.

Lehigh has a pretty good defense and very interested to see how they fare.

[Sader87]

HC: 2-2 at worst
LC: 5-1 at worst...computers have UNI favored at Princeton as well so based on that 6-0
LU: 3-1...nova only potential pss up and computers favor UNI
BU: 4-1 based on computer rankings.
CU: 4-1 see above
FU: 3-1 at worst...and I'm not sure an
GU undefeated


This UNI team doesn't beat Ball State. Every computer has UNI ranked a head of Ball State.

Fair enough...you have to admit though, that these OOC schedules were probably more difficult than you initially thought without looking at them closely, no?

Northern Iowa is a Top 10 FCS this year....many FCS teams would have struggled to have been very successful against a lot of these PL OOC schedules ....which was my original point.

It's very easy/lazy to look at the PL teams overall records this year and conclude that the "PL is absolutely awful" when one does this...if one delves a little deeper, you can see that the OOC scheduling played a big (I'm not saying all) part in that.

[clenz]

Fair enough...you have to admit though, that these OOC schedules were probably more difficult than you initially thought without looking at them closely, no?

Northern Iowa is a Top 10 FCS this year....many FCS teams would have struggled to have been very successful against a lot of these PL OOC schedules ....which was my original point.

It's very easy/lazy to look at the PL teams overall records this year and conclude that the "PL is absolutely awful" when one does this...if one delves a little deeper, you can see that the OOC scheduling played a big (I'm not saying all) part in that.
No it's absolutely not more difficult than I thought up front

Take the FBS games out of it (because the FCS historically is 8% in those games) and you have a bunch of games against the Big South, mid pack to low tier CAA teams, the NEC, and the Ivy.

Sorry - none of those teams worry me as a UNI fan. I'm not anti-Ivy but what I've watched from them this year (a fair amount) and I see a team that doesn't worry me as a UNI fan. I've seen Monmouth in person...a 9-2 Monmouth team. They literally looked like a HS team compared to UNI. UNI has played St Francis in the past and won something like 63-6.

You seem to believe that schedule - propped up entirely by Nova and FBS games - is somehow unmanageable. It would be for a bad conference. For any conference worth a damn? Nah.

[Sader87]

Again, I'm making the distinction between UNI and say teams outside the FCS Top 10-15. Nearly all the FCS teams outside of the Top 10-15 this year would have had difficulty i.e. losing 2 or 3 games against most of those PL OOC schedules. To think otherwise is to be obtuse...those are not cupcake-laden OOC schedules.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I honestly don't believe the PL schedules are that difficult either. A legitimately good FCS team would have no trouble navigating those waters with reasonable success. The problem is there's not a nationally viable PL team currently. Let alone 2 or 3.

[Sader87]

They are difficult OOC schedules for the vast majority of FCS programs....you guys just don't want to admit it.

Again, I'm not saying the OOC schedules are the entire reason the PL teams have poor records over all, but it is definitely a factor. These schedules are in general more difficult than the PL has played overall in the past.