If you're ranking Wofford this week, don't forget about SC State.

[WileECoyote06]

Just a reminder. They have the head-to-head; and the same record.

[Professor]

The pundits will say strength of schedule

[kdinva]

Just a reminder. They have the head-to-head; .

don't forget VMI >>>> Citadel

most of us on this site don't slot vote....

[Professor Chaos]

If you're ranking Wofford this week you probably shouldn't be.

[Bison56]

I wouldn't rank either team.

[clenz]

Just a reminder. They have the head-to-head; and the same record.
neither crossed my mind, so we're good.

[PaladinFan]

The pundits will say strength of schedule

Wofford's SOS is maybe 10 pts higher than SCSU.

[clenz]

Wofford's SOS is maybe 10 pts higher than SCSU.
Massey has current SOS

Wofford 90
SCSU 103

Projected full SOS has
Wofford 53
SCSU 99


I think that is almost exclusively made up because Clemson is coming up this week.

[Reign of Terrier]

Massey isn't infallible y'all, in fact it's kind of circular at times (because it's an algorithm). Portland State is #25 in Massey, but they're ranked 34th in SOS, despite the fact that they played 2 NAIA teams, and only have two teams with a winning record on their schedule. UC Davis is probably better than their record, I will concede that much, so make that 3. There are more teams like this that have a goose egg showing that is equally or more worse than Wofford and they're ranked higher (see Delaware ).

In a formula like Massey, teams will get credit for losing by a certain amount against a good opponent, get ranked in a position where other teams will maintain a rank based on another. These kind of rankings are great with college basketball when the sample size is an order of magnitude greater and there's more cross pollination between conferences (a dozen OOC games vs 1-2 tops in the FCS before the playoffs).

Either way, stats and algorithmic rankings aren't the story, they help tell the story. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that Wofford's resume is worthy of the top 15. It isn't (yet?). But 16-25 is always a crapshoot, and we have our collective **** together relative to other ranked teams. SC State is a similar story.

Also, our SOS will improve not just because of Clemson, but playing Furman and the citadel as well. If we win those games + Furman, IMO we're a top 15 team again (having won 8 straight FCS games in that hypothetical)

[clenz]

Massey isn't infallible y'all, in fact it's kind of circular at times (because it's an algorithm). Portland State is #25 in Massey, but they're ranked 34th in SOS, despite the fact that they played 2 NAIA teams, and only have two teams with a winning record on their schedule. UC Davis is probably better than their record, I will concede that much, so make that 3. There are more teams like this that have a goose egg showing that is equally or more worse than Wofford and they're ranked higher (see Delaware ).

In a formula like Massey, teams will get credit for losing by a certain amount against a good opponent, get ranked in a position where other teams will maintain a rank based on another. These kind of rankings are great with college basketball when the sample size is an order of magnitude greater and there's more cross pollination between conferences (a dozen OOC games vs 1-2 tops in the FCS before the playoffs).

Either way, stats and algorithmic rankings aren't the story, they help tell the story. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that Wofford's resume is worthy of the top 15. It isn't (yet?). But 16-25 is always a crapshoot, and we have our collective **** together relative to other ranked teams. SC State is a similar story.

Also, our SOS will improve not just because of Clemson, but playing Furman and the citadel as well. If we win those games + Furman, IMO we're a top 15 team again (having won 8 straight FCS games in that hypothetical)
You arne't getting a 40 point jump in something like Massey in the predicted final SoS by playing 5 loss Mercer, 4 loss Citadel and 3 loss Furman.

[WileECoyote06]

I wouldn't rank either team.

That's fair. Also, I guess I said something too late.

[Reign of Terrier]

You arne't getting a 40 point jump in something like Massey in the predicted final SoS by playing 5 loss Mercer, 4 loss Citadel and 3 loss Furman.

Portland State is ranked 34th right now in current SOS. They've lost to 1-loss Boise State. Every other team they've played has 5 losses+. It's not implausible.

[clenz]

Portland State is ranked 34th right now in current SOS. They've lost to 1-loss Boise State. Every other team they've played has 5 losses+. It's not implausible.
What that shows is how much one team makes a difference.

Right now Wofford doesn't have that game propping their SOS up, thus they are 90

They play Clemson and their Massey SoS is projected to jump 40 slots.

Thank you for making my point while trying to prove me wrong.


FWIW, they also have Arkansas on their schedule...and while Arkansas is a bad SEC team - when it comes to SoS in the FCS world it's still a major shift in ranking

[Reign of Terrier]

What that shows is how much one team makes a difference.

Right now Wofford doesn't have that game propping their SOS up, thus they are 90

They play Clemson and their Massey SoS is projected to jump 40 slots.

Thank you for making my point while trying to prove me wrong.


FWIW, they also have Arkansas on their schedule...and while Arkansas is a bad SEC team - when it comes to SoS in the FCS world it's still a major shift in ranking

I mean, I hate to pedantically digress but if your statement was that teams with x amount of losses couldn't boost your SOS, and I demonstrate the counterpoint of a team with multiple X+1 or more losses having a higher SOS at present, then that does invalidate your original point. If your original point was that FBS teams boost your SOS a crazy amount, that's a separate claim I'm not going to disagree with.

But in this context, it seems weird to not take the fact that many FCS teams with higher Massey rank and higher SOS have already played (and in most cases, lost to) their FBS team and then discard Wofford because we haven't yet. If our SOS goes up that much with an FBS game, I want to see what everyone else's looks like with and without the FBS game.

We can't say "Wofford's forecast 58th SOS is invalid because they played Clemson" unless we do that for every team with FBS opponent. Because Massey updates every week and the data set is always evolving, it's not wise to use it on a week-by-week basis, but when the dataset is complete. I mean, we may as well ask Massey for SOS rankings minus the FBS game because it has such an effect and teams play FBS teams at different times. Again, I'm not going to say our schedule is strong, but it's not as bad as Massey says it is either.

[clenz]

I mean, I hate to pedantically digress but if your statement was that teams with x amount of losses couldn't boost your SOS, and I demonstrate the counterpoint of a team with multiple X+1 or more losses having a higher SOS at present, then that does invalidate your original point. If your original point was that FBS teams boost your SOS a crazy amount, that's a separate claim I'm not going to disagree with.

But in this context, it seems weird to not take the fact that many FCS teams with higher Massey rank and higher SOS have already played (and in most cases, lost to) their FBS team and then discard Wofford because we haven't yet. If our SOS goes up that much with an FBS game, I want to see what everyone else's looks like with and without the FBS game.

We can't say "Wofford's forecast 58th SOS is invalid because they played Clemson" unless we do that for every team with FBS opponent. Because Massey updates every week and the data set is always evolving, it's not wise to use it on a week-by-week basis, but when the dataset is complete. I mean, we may as well ask Massey for SOS rankings minus the FBS game because it has such an effect and teams play FBS teams at different times. Again, I'm not going to say our schedule is strong, but it's not as bad as Massey says it is either.
I didn't say it was invalid.

You want to seem smart, but you've shown time and time again on this forum you aren't.

I said the boost in SoS is almost exclusively due to Clemson showing up on the schedule and inflating it because they are going to get a 40 point jump from what they have on the FCS level left.

[Reign of Terrier]

I didn't say it was invalid.

You want to seem smart, but you've shown time and time again on this forum you aren't.

I said the boost in SoS is almost exclusively due to Clemson showing up on the schedule and inflating it because they are going to get a 40 point jump from what they have on the FCS level left.

You're predictably using shock rhetoric to hide how bad your point is. It's kind of funny at this point, because I've tried my best to be polite and civil to you, but 80% of your "substance" is name calling and rhetoric. It's a great rhetorical way to frame your posts and come off as some smart guy, but it doesn't make your point valid.

Wofford's not the only team getting an SOS bump by playing a juggernaut FBS opponent. In fact, we can look at a team with a similar big FBS opponent at the end of the schedule, with also a similar schedule as Wofford, Western Carolina, that plays Bama in the last game of the season. Western plays 12 games compared to Wofford's 11, 2 FBS opponents, 1 D2 North Greenville, 7 common socon opponents + Gardner Webb. Their SOS is 69 (because NC State and Wofford is tougher than Western Carolina and nobody). What happens to their SOS once they play Bama? It jumps up to 57, coincidentally, one spot ahead of Wofford (so according to Massey, the difference between playing a D2 program, Wofford, NC State and Bama is only marginally better than playing Western, SC State and Clemson)

If it were the case that Clemson radically alters Wofford's SOS to the point where their ranking jump 40 spots by itself, then you would see something similar with Western Carolina. You don't. since Western has already played Wofford, Furman and the Citadel, you're seeing their SOS rank reflected in their current ranking.

[clenz]

You're predictably using shock rhetoric to hide how bad your point is. It's kind of funny at this point, because I've tried my best to be polite and civil to you, but 80% of your "substance" is name calling and rhetoric. It's a great rhetorical way to frame your posts and come off as some smart guy, but it doesn't make your point valid.

Wofford's not the only team getting an SOS bump by playing a juggernaut FBS opponent. In fact, we can look at a team with a similar big FBS opponent at the end of the schedule, with also a similar schedule as Wofford, Western Carolina, that plays Bama in the last game of the season. Western plays 12 games compared to Wofford's 11, 2 FBS opponents, 1 D2 North Greenville, 7 common socon opponents + Gardner Webb. Their SOS is 69 (because NC State and Wofford is tougher than Western Carolina and nobody). What happens to their SOS once they play Bama? It jumps up to 57, coincidentally, one spot ahead of Wofford (so according to Massey, the difference between playing a D2 program, Wofford, NC State and Bama is only marginally better than playing Western, SC State and Clemson)

If it were the case that Clemson radically alters Wofford's SOS to the point where their ranking jump 40 spots by itself, then you would see something similar with Western Carolina. You don't. since Western has already played Wofford, Furman and the Citadel, you're seeing their SOS rank reflected in their current ranking.
What name have I called? You have a decade of playing the victim after trying to act like you're smarter than everyone else.

I'm not framing ****.

I never said they were the only one to get a bump. They are the only one to get a bump from a team the level of Clemson - and yes that is the extreme majority of the reason for their bump. Their remaining FCS games are almost identical to the games they have played
5-2 SCSU
4-4 Samford
3-5 G W
4-4 BMI
2-8 ETSU
1-7 WCU
4-4 UTC

In the FCS you have left
3-5 Mercer
5-3 Furman
5-4 Citadel

Those games on their own would give a bump, but not 40 spots worth of a bump. Remember you're already being helped by 5-2 SCSU and 3 teams that are .500 right now. The only difference between the remaining schedule and played schedule is ETSU/WCU. Those hurt you - but not 40 spots worth of hurt, nor as much as Clemson helps.


What is clear is how miserable of a poster you are and how much you hate this site. Why do you keep coming back? It's narcissism to show how much smarter you are.

[Reign of Terrier]

What name have I called? You have a decade of playing the victim after trying to act like you're smarter than everyone else.

I'm not framing ****.

I never said they were the only one to get a bump. They are the only one to get a bump from a team the level of Clemson - and yes that is the extreme majority of the reason for their bump. Their remaining FCS games are almost identical to the games they have played
5-2 SCSU
4-4 Samford
3-5 G W
4-4 BMI
2-8 ETSU
1-7 WCU
4-4 UTC

In the FCS you have left
3-5 Mercer
5-3 Furman
5-4 Citadel

Those games on their own would give a bump, but not 40 spots worth of a bump. Remember you're already being helped by 5-2 SCSU and 3 teams that are .500 right now. The only difference between the remaining schedule and played schedule is ETSU/WCU. Those hurt you - but not 40 spots worth of hurt, nor as much as Clemson helps.


What is clear is how miserable of a poster you are and how much you hate this site. Why do you keep coming back? It's narcissism to show how much smarter you are.

Again, you're priming your post with rhetoric xcoffeex, saying I'm playing the victim, etc. I don't really care, I'm just pointing out that's your go-to tactic in a lot of places.

If you want to hold me accountable today for stuff I posted at the ripe age of 14, have at it hoss. Meanwhile, you holding a grudge or whatever for that is...weird.

But as for the substance of your post, I've given you a counterpoint. Western Carolina's SOS right now is 69. They are playing Alabama at the end of the year, a team comparable to Clemson. They're only getting a 12 point bump. Massey is looking at a lot variables beyond just records and scores. I couldn't tell you what they were, but Western Carolina is playing a weaker FCS schedule relative to Wofford (58, 80, and 70 relative to 22, 41, and 86) and I have a hard time thinking Massey rates Clemson that much better to where playing the game against Clemson boosts it roughly 28 spots more than Bama.

[Reign of Terrier]

What is clear is how miserable of a poster you are and how much you hate this site. Why do you keep coming back? It's narcissism to show how much smarter you are.

I keep coming back because I love talking FCS football. I leave because a lot of times I find myself spending too much time here and 1-3 posters can't just chill out and talk ball without calling me a know-it-all or a narcissist or "entitled child" like you have before (notice, I only said you were wrong in this thread, there's no personal attack). It's the reason I stopped posting earlier this year, and when I posted again today I didn't think it would take this long to incite vitriol over a simple disagreement. In this thread, you were the one who threw the first shot, not me.

I just do not understand why I incite such hostility here. I really don't. I've made mistakes in the past, sure, and I've adjusted my posting accordingly, but it's hard to move on when people hold stuff posted 10 years ago when I didn't even have a drivers' license seem angry face about those comments all the time don't.

[gofurman]

I keep coming back because I love talking FCS football. I leave because a lot of times I find myself spending too much time here and 1-3 posters can't just chill out and talk ball without calling me a know-it-all or a narcissist or "entitled child" like you have before (notice, I only said you were wrong in this thread, there's no personal attack). It's the reason I stopped posting earlier this year, and when I posted again today I didn't think it would take this long to incite vitriol over a simple disagreement. In this thread, you were the one who threw the first shot, not me.

I just do not understand why I incite such hostility here. I really don't. I've made mistakes in the past, sure, and I've adjusted my posting accordingly, but it's hard to move on when people hold stuff posted 10 years ago when I didn't even have a drivers' license seem angry face about those comments all the time don't.

To give Woff some credit. In the HYPOTHETICAL if they beat Furman that’s a 5-3 top 15 Furman because Furman has two close losses to FBS. so that’s a 5-1 FCS Furman. Thus the top 15 ranking by AGS. And both those FBS beat us 48-42 and 24-17. And are now 5-2 and headed to bowl games. Virginia Tech (Beat Miami and UNC)and Georgia State who just beat Army. My point is few teams have played TWO FBS. most have played one. So that Furman record is distorted some . Woff hasn’t played an FBS yet...

no big deal.

[843yapterrier]

Go Terriers! Plenty of chances to earn it on the field left. 😎

[PaladinFan]

I don't disagree with the premise. Wofford oddly didn't deserve to start the season as a top 10 team, but did. Now they deserve to be a top 20 team, but aren't.

I loathe the inherently flawed nature of polling, which just contains so much bias in terms of selecting which team falls where.

Of course, Wofford could have avoided this problem by not losing to two mediocre teams at the start of the season. There's a beauty in placing it all back on the team, I guess. Win your games and don't worry about the bias.

[ElCid]

I don't disagree with the premise. Wofford oddly didn't deserve to start the season as a top 10 team, but did. Now they deserve to be a top 20 team, but aren't.

I loathe the inherently flawed nature of polling, which just contains so much bias in terms of selecting which team falls where.

Of course, Wofford could have avoided this problem by not losing to two mediocre teams at the start of the season. There's a beauty in placing it all back on the team, I guess. Win your games and don't worry about the bias.

Yeah, and I watched that game. They were silly to try and change their O that much. I think I know exactly what was on their coaches mind. "hey, let's try and change things up with SCST because even if we do bad, we will come back and beat them.....oops." They are a better team than that game showed. People keep throwing around their SOS but that is what it is. They have been throttling teams since they got back in groove. As to the Samford loss...eh, Samford is a good, not great, but inconsistent team and they seem to have Wofford's number for some reason lately. It happens.

But in regard to polling you are right. I try and not fall into the habit of penalizing a team for ever. Bad losses happen and they "are" a data point that must be considered, but how good a team is, NOW, is also a data point. Those two data points, along with others, have to be blended together.

[Reign of Terrier]

I wouldn't say SC State is a mediocre team. They're basically one win away from the Celebration bowl. The MEAC is a little up this year. But SC State's defense has always been solid under Pough (they've tied with NDSU for the most shut outs in the last decade) and they're in their second year under a new OC. It was the perfect storm. I think the Celebration bowl is doing more to elevate the play of the MEAC than the FCS playoffs. The bottom half of the MEAC is still pretty bad, but what A&T has put together in OOC over the last few years has elevated the play and SC State, Bethune Cookman, and Florida A&M have each elevated their play.

SC State in particular has always played Socon teams tough, just ask Jerry Moore. If SC State loses to A&T but wins the rest of their games, there's a good chance Wofford plays them in the first round again. It'll happen.

[ASU33]

I wouldn't say SC State is a mediocre team. They're basically one win away from the Celebration bowl. The MEAC is a little up this year. But SC State's defense has always been solid under Pough (they've tied with NDSU for the most shut outs in the last decade) and they're in their second year under a new OC. It was the perfect storm. I think the Celebration bowl is doing more to elevate the play of the MEAC than the FCS playoffs. The bottom half of the MEAC is still pretty bad, but what A&T has put together in OOC over the last few years has elevated the play and SC State, Bethune Cookman, and Florida A&M have each elevated their play.

SC State in particular has always played Socon teams tough, just ask Jerry Moore. If SC State loses to A&T but wins the rest of their games, there's a good chance Wofford plays them in the first round again. It'll happen.

Same could be said for the SWAC. The Celebration Bowl has really made folks up the ante

[ejjones]

I'm not saying SC State has done enough to be ranked, but my only concern is how does Wofford enter the rankings (teens) & SC State not even crack to top 40 in the AGS? That just doesn't make any sense to me.

A previous poster already has called us mediocre; I'd be curious to know how many NFL HOF'ers they have and how many players they currently have on NFL rosters. Thanks for taking my call, I'll hang up and listened to answer.

[WileECoyote06]

I'm not saying SC State has done enough to be ranked, but my only concern is how does Wofford enter the rankings (teens) & SC State not even crack to top 40 in the AGS? That just doesn't make any sense to me.

A previous poster already has called us mediocre; I'd be curious to know how many NFL HOF'ers they have and how many players they currently have on NFL rosters. Thanks for taking my call, I'll hang up and listened to answer.

I voted for them. But it's my fault, I should have raised this point during the How they Performed thread.

As it stands, SCSU's best win (Wofford) is better than Wofford's best win (Chattanooga) and SCSU's FCS loss was to a better rated team (FAMU) than Wofford's other FCS loss (Samford); all according to Massey.

- - - Updated - - -


I'm not saying SC State has done enough to be ranked, but my only concern is how does Wofford enter the rankings (teens) & SC State not even crack to top 40 in the AGS? That just doesn't make any sense to me.

A previous poster already has called us mediocre; I'd be curious to know how many NFL HOF'ers they have and how many players they currently have on NFL rosters. Thanks for taking my call, I'll hang up and listened to answer.

I voted for them. But it's my fault, I should have raised this point during the How they Performed thread.

As it stands, SCSU's best win (Wofford) is better than Wofford's best win (Chattanooga) and SCSU's FCS loss was to a better rated team (FAMU) than Wofford's other FCS loss (Samford); all according to Massey.

[Reign of Terrier]

I'm not saying SC State has done enough to be ranked, but my only concern is how does Wofford enter the rankings (teens) & SC State not even crack to top 40 in the AGS? That just doesn't make any sense to me.

A previous poster already has called us mediocre; I'd be curious to know how many NFL HOF'ers they have and how many players they currently have on NFL rosters. Thanks for taking my call, I'll hang up and listened to answer.I believe SC state has done enough to be ranked (but I'm biased because they beat my team) by virtue of beating Wofford a BC team that was 6-1.

Also Furman had Sam Wyche, look him up

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[Reign of Terrier]

I voted for them. But it's my fault, I should have raised this point during the How they Performed thread.

As it stands, SCSU's best win (Wofford) is better than Wofford's best win (Chattanooga) and SCSU's FCS loss was to a better rated team (FAMU) than Wofford's other FCS loss (Samford); all according to Massey.

- - - Updated - - -



I voted for them. But it's my fault, I should have raised this point during the How they Performed thread.

As it stands, SCSU's best win (Wofford) is better than Wofford's best win (Chattanooga) and SCSU's FCS loss was to a better rated team (FAMU) than Wofford's other FCS loss (Samford); all according to Massey.I mean, I don't think you need to compare their resumes to say that SC state, by virtue of beating Wofford, needs more respect in the polls

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[ejjones]

I believe SC state has done enough to be ranked (but I'm biased because they beat my team) by virtue of beating Wofford a BC team that was 6-1.

Also Furman had Sam Wyche, look him up

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
Ok, you must be talking HOF? I didn't know that. I think we get our 4th HOF this year (Donnie Shell) Pittsburg Steelers LONG overdue.