The Patriot League & The Status Quo

[DFW HOYA]

Life is all about planning. So are sports. There's a reason why some teams and coaches seem to be a step ahead of the crowd and others are caught in a time warp--planning.

College conferences are all about planning, too--the Big Ten and SEC immediately come to mind. They have seen what happens when conferences go adrift (see the once powerful Southwest Conference as Exhibit A) and made the difficult decision to grow rather than be exposed. Even the Big East, which failed to see the ACC's own backhanded plans until it was almost too late, knows that it must plan for future contingencies more than rely on the past.

Yet, if someone asks fans of the Patriot League where it will be in football two, five, or ten years from today, chances are they'll respond: "Right where it is today." The PL model has potential, but the league shows little outward signs of being much more than it was in 1986, 1996, or 2006.

There's something to be said for stability, as their older brothers in the Ivy League can attest. But the Ancient Eight schools share a common heritage and uncanny abilty to see its schools move up and down the standings. Excepting Columbia, every Ivy team eventually moves to the top of the ladder.

Not so in the Patriot. The football league is essentially four liberal arts colleges with similar hopes and ambitions, and three urban Catholic schools whose former major college football programs have seen better days. But with the opportunity to spur upward movement in the standings, the PL seems happy with what is fast becoming an oligarchy in football. In the last 16 years of PL football, 15 titles have been shared by three schools: Lehigh, Lafayette, and Colgate. Outside of an anomaly that enabled Fordham to get real good for two years before dropping back down, none of the other four appear to be mounting any challenge to the lead three in the near future.

The PL has no conference wide TV package, in large part, because Lehigh and Lafayette have their own TV packages and are less than willing to share in a league wide deal. And in Week 11, only one series is protected by the league's scheuling office annually: Lehigh-Lafayette. Never mind that Colgate-Bucknell has been played continuously for 57 years, or that Georgetown and Fordham have met 52 times since 1890, only Lehigh-Lafayette is a game worth doing so at year's end. It's become a de facto league championship, and the status quo is firmly in place.

Same thing for scheduling. The league was built around scheduling Ivy League teams, but this too is in change. The Ivies are beginning to look beyond the league, the NEC is about to take a big bite out of PL recruiting with the availability of 30 scholarships, and the CAA schedules appear to be closed to widespread contact with PL schools for the forseeable future.

The league needs to cast a wider net on scheduling, including the CAA and other playoff conferences (including those more than a bus ride away) and start to include games with I-A schools like the academies on an intermittent basis. One game a year between a team like Army and a PL team would accomplish two goals: 1) an win for a I-A team that could always use one, and 2) great recruiting opportunities for the PL schools. If you could tell a recruit that at Bucknell or Georgetown or Lafayette you would play Navy or Army at least once over your four years, it's a plus. Instead, the academies are slowly filling their schedules with Sun Belt teams (i.e., Navy travels to North Texas this fall, while Army has sign a longer term deal to play at Western Kentucky). Overall, the PL needs to have a visible scheduling plan, and not rely on the Ivy to fill in the first four weeks of the season--otherwise, there'll be a lot more Ionas and Marists on PL schedules in the seasons to come.

Finally, the PL must address, sooner rather than later, a future with or without scholarships. Thanks to Rev. Brooks and John Feinstein's book, the PL has been a code word for atheltic deemphasis-witness the revolt at Richmond when its president tried to position the Spiders for the PL. With the Ivy taking the top students one hand and the NEC and CAA poaching the student-athletes that used to fall to the PL's level on the other, the Patriot is setting itself up for trouble. Some schools are quietly for scholarships, some oppose it more publicly (Holy Cross). But since it has no expansion plan, the PL cannot risk losing members, but the haves and have nots will only grow if the issue is not settled soon.

There is a compromise out there that we might be able to discuss later this summer. In whatever form it takes, a compromise would surely mean Georgetown to step it up and schools like Colgate and Lehigh to take a lateral step (not necessarily down), and to study if such a compromise opens the PL up to other schools in the region that would be a good fit for the league but who won't touch the PL in its current arrangement. This is another area where status quo is not helping the league.

Fifteen years ago, Georgetown joined a MAAC football league that achieved some modicum of success in its early years--expansion, some media coverage, and momentum for cost-containment football. By the late 1990's, however, the MAAC's policies were a lot more about protecting certain low-budget schools than in growing the league as a whole. The larger schools left, the smaller schools dropped off the map entirely, and what is left is a shell of its former self. With strategic planning, the PL can avoid this trap, but it's got to think beyond the last 20 years and better define itself going forward.

[ngineer]

[QUOTE=DFW HOYA]Life is all about planning. So are sports. There's a reason why some teams and coaches seem to be a step ahead of the crowd and others are caught in a time warp--planning.

My, you've spent some time on that! Can't disagree with a lot of your perspective, although your 'Oliver Stone' attempt toward the PL always wanting Lehigh/Lafayette to be for the League championship is a bit paranoid, IMO.

That aside, you raise good issues that certainly need to be addressed.

Now for you lead sentence. One of my favorite expressions is followign the "Seven P's of Life"--though somewhat redundant, "Proper prior planning prevents piss-poor performance.";)

[carney2]

Lots of good stuff here. Food for thought. Some new; some old. Thanks.

I haven't had time to digest so I'll nit pick. You overlooked the fact that Bucknell won the League championship in 1996, the 2nd year of a 4 year run where they finished no worse than 3rd in any year. This neither adds to nor detracts from anything that you say. Merely getting the facts in order.

This will reopen the whole Patriot League expansion brouhaha with some saying that there must be a perfect fit (Richmond, Villanova, etc.) and others saying that the League needs to get off their duff or face extinction. LFN has addressed this in detail and others have also chimed in (many times). I'm hoping that there is something new to say.

[Fordham]

Great discussion fodder, DFW! Well done.

A few questions:

1. Does anyone know what the TV deal that LU & LC consists of in terms of benefits for the universities? Is it exposure, which helps in terms of recruiting or something more, like significant (relative term) $$ back to the school?

2. Is the PL actively assisting LU, LC and CU to maintain the 'oligarchy' or are the other schools simply not performing? Further, even if they are actively supporting the agendas or priorities of the 'big 3', doesn't that make sense given that they are each full members v. affiliates? Part of what is frustrating for me, but certainly understandable as well, is that we're all focused primarily on football here but they obviously have league and sports-wide concerns to deal with that often supercede or at least compete with our beloved sport.

3. I agree with much of what you wrote and really believe the future of the program hinges on the scholarship decision, both for competitiveness reasons as well as expansion. That's what leads me to take (minor) issue with your comment that most fans see the future of the PL as pretty much what we have today. Fordham fans ... and the fans of other schools I have contact with (mostly via AGS) don't believe that's the case for a second. I think the future of the league is at stake and the decisions being made now will determine whether or not it will thrive, devolve into a DIII knock-off or simply dissolve.

Again, good stuff. FWIW, I'll like to take one Villanova and one Richmond from the 'affiliates' section of the store and sprinkle it in with a 'full time members' decision on hold until after we go scholly in football.

and a pony. I'd also like a pony.

[Seahawks Fan]

Good thoughtfull post.

One thing I would like to see is scheduling a Fordham / Wagner game each year. Two NYC schools should meet on the gridiron.

[Fordham]

Surprised it hasn't happened, Seahawks, given that our AD's are very tight (I believe).

[LUHawker]

Nice overview, DFW Hoya. I have to agree with my ngineer compatriot that you do paint a bit of a conspiracy theory surrounding LU-LC for the championshipt game every year. It certainly doesn't hurt the league, but I doubt there is anything more to it. I'm not sure what you mean by "lateral steps", but I agree the league needs to think about its future and provide a framework for expanding and/or improving its position. Let me preempt my esteemed colleague, LFN, by saying that the Patriot League should not be entertaining any ideas about expanding with a school like Marist (or Duquense). In no way, shape or form, do these schools have anything in common with the PL schools other than geography. I, for one, do not see any benefit, other than purely a larger league in pursuing these schools for membership. Moreover, I don't relish the idea of watching Lehigh-Duquense at their crappy facility in Pittsburgh. (Truth be told, a game in the Hudson Valley would be nice, but I'd prefer it be at Micche xsmiley_wix ).

As for TV contracts, I enjoy being able to watch Lehigh's away games and I even sneak a peek at the Leopards' games once in a while. I don't see why a broader contract couldn't be reached with LU and LC retaining their existing broadcast rights on days when they aren't the featured team.

Overall, I agree that it would benefit the league to have expansion options, but I'm not sure there are great available candidates at this time. That is why the league needs a framework to consider new teams when an opportunity arises (ie Richmond).

[DetroitFlyer]

Try being a fan of the PFL.... Somewhat like the PL, the PFL looks to the Ivy League as a model. Unlike the Ivy League or even the PL, the PFL schools have almost nothing to tie them together, and certainly no tradition like the Ivy League. The Ivies are unique and any attempt for any other league to be Ivy wannabees is not going to work IMHO.

Of course the PFL and it's, ahem, esteemed commishette, are "planning" for the future. It has been widely reported here that a "non-scholarship" FCS summit will be held this summer.... Will any PL teams attend? Frankly, I would not be suprised....

There always seems to be a conflict with football programs. Fans of the PL want to see games against FBS teams and Ivy teams. Fans of the PFL want to see games against PL teams and Ivy teams. Fans of the "power" FCS conferences contemplate their teams moving up to FBS. Fans of the MAAC just want to see games, ( LOL ).

I see a somewhat obvious solution, but it will never happen because as fans we all want our teams to play at the absolute highest level possible. As I have mentioned many times, FCS is perhaps the most fractured level of college football. We range from the FBS wannabees to the Division III wannabees. In many respects, an alliance of the Ivy League, the PL, the PFL, the MAAC, the SWAC and the MEAC would make sense. For the most part, these teams could play competitive games against one another, and they would not be caught up in the financial pressure to match the "power" conferences. For this to work, however, I really think a new, unique level of college football would have to be created, kind of a "lower" level of FCS recognized by the NCAA, with its own playoff system. Yeah, pretty much Patty V's fantasy....

Well, it is never going to happen, even though it seems to make some sense.... Frankly, given all of the political baggage that surrounds football, I do not see many changes. I think the PL will in fact maintain the status quo, the PFL and MAAC will fight for survival and acceptance in FCS, the SWAC and Ivy will remain isolated, and the MEAC may just join them.... Yeah, the NCAA could come along and demand that all teams provide 63, actual athletic scholarships, but as I said, political baggage. I think this has as much chance of coming about as Patty V's fantasy.

All of this certainly sheds some light on just how challenging it is to have a Division I football program. It really is too bad that a solution can not be worked out that would ultimately benefit all teams concerned going forward. Instead, folks like me will still be screaming for a PFL autobid to the playoffs.... At least the PL has that going in their favor, and believe me, that is absolutely huge in this discussion!

[Seahawks Fan]

Surprised it hasn't happened, Seahawks, given that our AD's are very tight (I believe).

I think you're right. Wagner and Fordham have long history together. The two schools were founding members of the NIT. Pete Carlesimo and Herb Sutter were good friends. We hired PJ and you hired our Dereck Whittenburg (good hire).

[Franks Tanks]

Try being a fan of the PFL.... Somewhat like the PL, the PFL looks to the Ivy League as a model. Unlike the Ivy League or even the PL, the PFL schools have almost nothing to tie them together, and certainly no tradition like the Ivy League. The Ivies are unique and any attempt for any other league to be Ivy wannabees is not going to work IMHO.

Of course the PFL and it's, ahem, esteemed commishette, are "planning" for the future. It has been widely reported here that a "non-scholarship" FCS summit will be held this summer.... Will any PL teams attend? Frankly, I would not be suprised....

There always seems to be a conflict with football programs. Fans of the PL want to see games against FBS teams and Ivy teams. Fans of the PFL want to see games against PL teams and Ivy teams. Fans of the "power" FCS conferences contemplate their teams moving up to FBS. Fans of the MAAC just want to see games, ( LOL ).

I see a somewhat obvious solution, but it will never happen because as fans we all want our teams to play at the absolute highest level possible. As I have mentioned many times, FCS is perhaps the most fractured level of college football. We range from the FBS wannabees to the Division III wannabees. In many respects, an alliance of the Ivy League, the PL, the PFL, the MAAC, the SWAC and the MEAC would make sense. For the most part, these teams could play competitive games against one another, and they would not be caught up in the financial pressure to match the "power" conferences. For this to work, however, I really think a new, unique level of college football would have to be created, kind of a "lower" level of FCS recognized by the NCAA, with its own playoff system. Yeah, pretty much Patty V's fantasy....

Well, it is never going to happen, even though it seems to make some sense.... Frankly, given all of the political baggage that surrounds football, I do not see many changes. I think the PL will in fact maintain the status quo, the PFL and MAAC will fight for survival and acceptance in FCS, the SWAC and Ivy will remain isolated, and the MEAC may just join them.... Yeah, the NCAA could come along and demand that all teams provide 63, actual athletic scholarships, but as I said, political baggage. I think this has as much chance of coming about as Patty V's fantasy.

All of this certainly sheds some light on just how challenging it is to have a Division I football program. It really is too bad that a solution can not be worked out that would ultimately benefit all teams concerned going forward. Instead, folks like me will still be screaming for a PFL autobid to the playoffs.... At least the PL has that going in their favor, and believe me, that is absolutely huge in this discussion!


Their is no way Lafayette, Lehigh, Colgate, Fordham, and probably even Bucknell will align themselves with a PFL/MAAC type of football. If the PL blows up some day I can see those teams mentioned above going the 63 scholarship route and playing in a "scholarship league". As has been discussed ad nauseum The teams above spend as much as a "full scholarship program" does and applying non-scholarship to the PL is just semantics as they say. Lafayette didnt just spend 30 million in stadium upgrades to play St. Peters and Valpo with D-III talent. No way does Lehigh and Colgate let their proud programs stoop to that low. Fordham spends a tone of footbal, something liek 3.6 million, and have aspirations to be a real force in FCS. The scenario you outlined will only fly for Georgetown, and a big maybe for The Cross and Bucknell who are clearly basketball schools.

[carney2]

A few questions:

1. Does anyone know what the TV deal that LU & LC consists of in terms of benefits for the universities? Is it exposure, which helps in terms of recruiting or something more, like significant (relative term) $$ back to the school?

2. Is the PL actively assisting LU, LC and CU to maintain the 'oligarchy' or are the other schools simply not performing? Further, even if they are actively supporting the agendas or priorities of the 'big 3', doesn't that make sense given that they are each full members v. affiliates? Part of what is frustrating for me, but certainly understandable as well, is that we're all focused primarily on football here but they obviously have league and sports-wide concerns to deal with that often supercede or at least compete with our beloved sport.

1. I certainly don't know what's involved with the TV packages for these two and have never heard that the details are public information. Let's just say that I would be very surprised if there is serious money involved.

2. Think about it. If there were even a hint that the League powers were leaning toward one or another of the members, there would be a revolt and things would come crashing down. What we have are 3 schools (Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh) that have made a serious commitment to football; two (Bucknell and Fordham) that seem to be on the fence; and two more (Georgetown and Holy Cross) that are unable/unwilling. The League is a decent match academically, but from a football standpoint it is doubtful that all 7 will ever be on the same page.

[DetroitFlyer]

too much political baggage.... The PL is too good to play those other schools. Sounds very familar throughout the world of FCS football. We all think our team is great and should be playing a better schedule than they are.... That, my friends, is really part of the problem. As we have also discussed, trying to determine exactly what school A, B or C spends on football is virtually impossible when using the numbers available in the public domain. Yeah, I think that Colgate spends more than Valpo, but as to the details, who knows.... I will further simplify my previous statements. There are FCS schools that want to play a more cost controlled version of football than others. These schools are in a variety of FCS conferences currently. IF a VIABLE level of football could be created at this "lower" level, I think you all just might be very surpised at some of the teams that join up....

[Franks Tanks]

too much political baggage.... The PL is too good to play those other schools. Sounds very familar throughout the world of FCS football. We all think our team is great and should be playing a better schedule than they are.... That, my friends, is really part of the problem. As we have also discussed, trying to determine exactly what school A, B or C spends on football is virtually impossible when using the numbers available in the public domain. Yeah, I think that Colgate spends more than Valpo, but as to the details, who knows.... I will further simplify my previous statements. There are FCS schools that want to play a more cost controlled version of football than others. These schools are in a variety of FCS conferences currently. IF a VIABLE level of football could be created at this "lower" level, I think you all just might be very surpised at some of the teams that join up....

I understand what you are saying but recently Lafayette, Lehigh, and Colgate have shown thay can compete with and spend with the bigger boys if necessary. These schools have showed that they are interested in winning, not cost containment. With the philosiphical hurdle of scholarships finally being breached at all league members, I think acholarship football is soon to follow for the Big three if you will. The scenario you outline may be viable for the rest of the league, I just think your painting with too broad of a stroke here lumping everyone together.

[bison137]

[QUOTE=DFW HOYA]Life is all about planning. So are sports. There's a reason why some teams and coaches seem to be a step ahead of the crowd and others are caught in a time warp--planning.

My, you've spent some time on that! Can't disagree with a lot of your perspective, although your 'Oliver Stone' attempt toward the PL always wanting Lehigh/Lafayette to be for the League championship is a bit paranoid, IMO.

That aside, you raise good issues that certainly need to be addressed.

Now for you lead sentence. One of my favorite expressions is followign the "Seven P's of Life"--though somewhat redundant, "Proper prior planning prevents piss-poor performance.";)


If the PL hierarchy has wanted to have certain teams dominate, their schemes must have changed periodically over the years. Since Holy Cross's scholarship reign ended (1993), there were significant periods when both Lafayette and Colgate football was poor. Indeed, from the end of HC dominance in 1993 until Tom Gadd tragically developed brain cancer and had to step down as BU coach after the 2001 season, Bucknell had a much better record than LC and the same record as CU.

The only real constant has been the strong performance by Lehigh.

[carney2]

The pickings are slim, folks. Here is a list of 15 schools that might be even a slight "match" for PL membership. Every one has "problems;" some are on the list because they have been mentioned at one time or another; and some have probabilities approaching zero.

Davidson
Duquesne
Elon
Furman
Hofstra
Johns Hopkins
Marist
Monmouth
Northeastern
Richmond
Villanova
VMI
Wagner
William & Mary
Wofford

If you're looking for perfect, it aint there, folks. There will need to be a lot - A LOT - of negotiating and concessions before the PL expands. Here's hoping that someone is talking to someone because, as DFW indicates, the "status quo" can't last forever.

[youwouldno]

too much political baggage.... The PL is too good to play those other schools. Sounds very familar throughout the world of FCS football. We all think our team is great and should be playing a better schedule than they are.... That, my friends, is really part of the problem. As we have also discussed, trying to determine exactly what school A, B or C spends on football is virtually impossible when using the numbers available in the public domain. Yeah, I think that Colgate spends more than Valpo, but as to the details, who knows.... I will further simplify my previous statements. There are FCS schools that want to play a more cost controlled version of football than others. These schools are in a variety of FCS conferences currently. IF a VIABLE level of football could be created at this "lower" level, I think you all just might be very surpised at some of the teams that join up....

PL fans don't want to play D-III type football. They want to compete in the postseason, and the playoffs are what makes FCS so great. Competitive football, with scholarships or 'equivalencies,' and playoffs = great sport.

No scholarships, not competitive, no playoffs = who cares?

[youwouldno]

The pickings are slim, folks. Here is a list of 15 schools that might have even a slight "match" for PL membership. Every one has "problems;" some are on the list because they have been mentioned at one time or another; and some have probabilities approaching zero.

Davidson
Duquesne
Elon
Furman
Hofstra
Johns Hopkins
Marist
Monmouth
Northeastern
Richmond
Villanova
VMI
Wagner
William & Mary
Wofford

If you're looking for perfect, it aint there, folks. There will need to be a lot - A LOT - of negotiating and concessions before the PL expands. Here's hoping that someone is talking to someone because, as DFW indicates, the "status quo" can't last forever.

Well the Southern schools are a no go unless there is a mass exodus of big public schools to the FBS (not going to happen, despite fan interest in many places). But you could probably cobble together something interesting if you include the SoCon and CAA programs on your list.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What, a debate about the PL broke out, and nobody invited me? xlolx

Just kidding, of course. I may as well mention that I'm going to be publishing the first part of my "New Realities" piece today on the blog. This great commentary by DFW is a great opening shot to this debate, and I think we can get a real great debate rolling from this.

Some thoughts so far.

1. I somewhat agree that Leh/Laf is a highly-protected rivalry - though I don't think that protection comes from the league office. I think that Lafayette and Lehigh make it a priority to publicize and protect their rivalry, and it shows. It's not like the PL website has a countdown on it "Only 200 days until Lehigh/Lafayette!"

2. DFW talks about stability and competitiveness, and how the Ivy has it and we don't. I think it's worth mentioning that the Patriot League has never been really, in any classic sense, "stable". In the late 90's Holy Cross gave an ultimatum to the league that if they don't get scholarships, they were gone.

As for competitiveness, top to bottom I don't feel like any PL sport has been particularly competitive top to bottom. Look at men's basketball, where it's rapidly evolved into the Holy Cross/Bucknell show. Schools put resources into what they feel is important to a university. DFW, you point to Fordham's short run as an example that the "oligarchy" is hard to top. I look at that and see that with the right coaching staff and care for football, other schools can certainly compete for titles. Colgate certainly applies to this too.

(That's not to say that there aren't structural problems with some of the tools PL schools use. But for that, you'll have to wait for the blog postings next week...)

I happen to think that the Ivies are not as competitive as you suggest either. When was the last time a school not named Penn or Princeton won the men's basketball championship? Harvard and Penn have been dominant figures atop the standings in football, especially since the advent of their banding system. Now that Yale and Princeton has also unloosened the purse strings, they're joining them.

3. How important are the Ivies to scheduling? This is a great question, and one that is important to the direction of the league. Are schools really going to keep putting four Ivy schools on the slate every year? Do we make structural changes that make us (perhaps) less like the Ivies? If we change, will they say "goodbye"? These are real questions, with differing opinions.

4. I know LU Hawker hates me for this, but I think the league office would be crazy not to consider Marist in any plans for expansion. They're basically ready and willing. Their men's basketball team instantly improves our league. Their football team immediately gives us stability. Their academics are not bad. And, importantly, they don't seem to have any particular desire to stay non-scholarship. This ain't Towson.

5. I can't speak for everyone, but Lehigh has done everything possible to get a one-off game with Army, and they have refused everything. (They even accepted a game against Yale, which wouldn't count towards bowl eligibility.) It would be fantastic to get those games for the league, but simply Army refuses to play, maybe because games versus Lehigh would be seen by their intrasigent alumni as the first step towards PL membership.

6. I do agree that the league is at a sort of crossroads when it comes to "defining itself". It needs to expand, work on its brand in terms of members not named Lehigh or Lafayette, and solidify its place in the world. That's why this debate you've started is so worthwhile.

[carney2]

Well the Southern schools are a no go unless there is a mass exodus of big public schools to the FBS (not going to happen, despite fan interest in many places). But you could probably cobble together something interesting if you include the SoCon and CAA programs on your list.

Everyone on that list is a "no go" for one reason or another. Frankly, in almost every case another shoe would have to drop. For instance, there were those rumors about shakeups, defections, whatever in the new CAA. Those "southern schools" as you call them would, for instance, only come into play if they were forced to look elsewhere because the large state universities with which they are affiliated take action that is detrimental to the "privates." Don't know what that could be. You mention movement to FBS. I guess that is one scenario.

[colorless raider]

Very good piece by DFW. Much of the problems of the PL can be traced to weak leadership from the Excutive Office. They are finally looking at the issue with the Academic Index(AI) being so high as to put us on a similar plane with the Ivies-hence our losing record in the last two years. The TV contract situation is one where the League office reacts to what the Ivy League does and never takes a leadership positon. Their public relations efforts are poor to say the least. Have any of you notices how the league media guides have gone downhill? The League needs more assertive and creative leadership form the paid staff AND need the presidents to really focus on direction and planning as you have all pointed out. Drifting along is not acceptable.

[carney2]

Damn you, DFW! I was going to limit my AGS time today - and now this.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Very good piece by DFW. Much of the problems of the PL can be traced to weak leadership from the Excutive Office. They are finally looking at the issue with the Academic Index(AI) being so high as to put us on a similar plane with the Ivies-hence our losing record in the last two years. The TV contract situation is one where the League office reacts to what the Ivy League does and never takes a leadership positon. Their public relations efforts are poor to say the least. Have any of you notices how the league media guides have gone downhill? The League needs more assertive and creative leadership form the paid staff AND need the presidents to really focus on direction and planning as you have all pointed out. Drifting along is not acceptable.

Also, I just wanted to point out that it's not like the Ivy League has "great" leadership on all things football. Ask Cornell and Columbia how many televised games they had last year. Also, look at the nonexistent job the league office did when Harvard and Princeton were 5-0 going into their game at Princeton last year. That game should have been billed as the "Game of the Year".

[RichH2]

DFW,

Just popped in for a few minutes and this upstart has me nailed to the chair,not a particularly hard thing to do now. Someone must explain that serious topics are ltd to the last 2 weeks in July up until fall camp starts (lol).
Anywho, He has presented a very cogent overview with some repeat of the ongoing debate on membership with a somewhat new slant being a newer member of the PL. If all I had seen of the PL was the last 7-8 years, I might also wonder about whether this was a closed club for LU-LC and Gate. It really does however boil down to emphasis, money and coaching. GU and HC have new coaches lets see whether sufficient assets are put in so they can recruit

Much more important as we all are aware is where does the PL go from here. It cannot stand still because in today's world it will soon be relegated again to an appendage of the Ivies, a second thought kind of conference. The PL still seems split between those pushing for a more national presence and those treading water.

While a new member school is becoming more urgent each year with the rather unstable landscape, who do you pick. We passed on Albany and Duquesne, I would love Nova but PL seems to want only all sport member.

Marist may not be a bad choice. Academically a little under but certainly better than Towson. Q is whether it can spend the $$ to become competitive in the PL.

[Model Citizen]

It has been widely reported here that a "non-scholarship" FCS summit will be held this summer.... Will any PL teams attend? Frankly, I would not be suprised....

I'd be surprised. Going from 50 equivalencies to 0 would be a big step. For Georgetown, it would be more like 20 to 0. They all have money to burn, so I don't foresee any of them moving to non-scholarship football.

[DetroitFlyer]

I do not think that any PL teams would move to non-scholarship football any more than Richmond. That does not mean that these schools might not attend Patty V's fantasy conference just to see what the latest thinking is relative to non-scholarship football. I think a lot of schools might attend just to better understand Potential options. It will be interesting to see the attendance list, if it is ever released. I'm betting that some schools that might attend would not want word to get out that they were there....

[Model Citizen]

Won't there be a podcast? xrotatehx

[Go...gate]

[QUOTE=ngineer]


If the PL hierarchy has wanted to have certain teams dominate, their schemes must have changed periodically over the years. Since Holy Cross's scholarship reign ended (1993), there were significant periods when both Lafayette and Colgate football was poor. Indeed, from the end of HC dominance in 1993 until Tom Gadd tragically developed brain cancer and had to step down as BU coach after the 2001 season, Bucknell had a much better record than LC and the same record as CU.

The only real constant has been the strong performance by Lehigh.

Right. We had two winning seasons and an 0-11 in the first decade the league was in operation and the program almost died.

[Fordham]

...What we have are 3 schools (Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh) that have made a serious commitment to football; two (Bucknell and Fordham) that seem to be on the fence; and two more (Georgetown and Holy Cross) that are unable/unwilling. The League is a decent match academically, but from a football standpoint it is doubtful that all 7 will ever be on the same page.
I've seen similar references made by you and others before about us being sort of second tier in terms of commitment - why is that? According to the finances thread, we're the #2 overall team in FCS in terms of spending. I believe that along with Lehigh & Colgate, we've been in the top 3 budget-wise for a few years in the PL.

What else gets us put into second tier when it comes to 'commitment'?

[RichH2]

Since there is no set standard for what constitutes football expenses there is no real frame of reference between schools as to what is actually spent.
I bekieve FU still in 2nd tier not for lack of spending but rather the coaching changeovers. Once a program slips it takes forever to get righted. It is an ongoing paranoia for LU fans who went thru the 60s.

[Franks Tanks]

I've seen similar references made by you and others before about us being sort of second tier in terms of commitment - why is that? According to the finances thread, we're the #2 overall team in FCS in terms of spending. I believe that along with Lehigh & Colgate, we've been in the top 3 budget-wise for a few years in the PL.

What else gets us put into second tier when it comes to 'commitment'?


I agree that Fordham is very committed to winning, and I would put you in pretty much the same discussion as Lafayette, Colgate, and Lehigh. Bucknell and Holy Cross are odd, I cant fugure out if they want to have outstanding football programs, or are content funnelling more funds toward basketball and hoping for the best on the gridiron.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I've seen similar references made by you and others before about us being sort of second tier in terms of commitment - why is that? According to the finances thread, we're the #2 overall team in FCS in terms of spending. I believe that along with Lehigh & Colgate, we've been in the top 3 budget-wise for a few years in the PL.

What else gets us put into second tier when it comes to 'commitment'?

When this latest batch of freshmen become seniors, I think it will be very, very evident that Fordham is going up, not down.

[Pard4Life]

[QUOTE=ngineer]


If the PL hierarchy has wanted to have certain teams dominate, their schemes must have changed periodically over the years. Since Holy Cross's scholarship reign ended (1993), there were significant periods when both Lafayette and Colgate football was poor. Indeed, from the end of HC dominance in 1993 until Tom Gadd tragically developed brain cancer and had to step down as BU coach after the 2001 season, Bucknell had a much better record than LC and the same record as CU.

The only real constant has been the strong performance by Lehigh.

I would attribute the better record than Lafayette to:

-our prospect of folding football
-Russo stagnation

The first point is a major one.. lack of depth and quality in recruits.. the Pards would bring in true blue-chippers all the time and dazzle the league.. during the late 90s, this did not happen.. the first period since the late 70s... not until Tavani.. an aggressive recruiter who had assurances he would have a program, was able to recruit those blue-chippers again.. i.e. Glavic, McCourt..

Strong performance by Lehigh? Eh... you did not have that until 1997.. that's the same time frame as Colgate's dominance..

Bucknell, Lehigh, Colgate, Lafayette are joined at the hip and should rightly be...

[Pard4Life]

When this latest batch of freshmen become seniors, I think it will be very, very evident that Fordham is going up, not down.

Fordham has alot of potential.. if carpet-bagger career-hungry Clawson did not leave, the Rams would still dominate.. you'd have CU, LU, LC, FU all killing each other..

[carney2]

I've seen similar references made by you and others before about us being sort of second tier in terms of commitment - why is that? According to the finances thread, we're the #2 overall team in FCS in terms of spending. I believe that along with Lehigh & Colgate, we've been in the top 3 budget-wise for a few years in the PL.

What else gets us put into second tier when it comes to 'commitment'?

1. Lafayette just spent $30 million on a stadium upgrade and football central. Commitment! Lehigh has Goodman and there is rumbling of it getting an upgrade. Commitment! 'gate just spent $? on a giganto fan friendly scoreboard. Commitment!

2. My understanding is that Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh are in the upper 50s as far as "equivalencies" are concerned and that no one else has yet cracked 50. Commitment!

For what it's worth, the Rams appear to be on the move - at least in the area of talent and, I am guessing (hoping), equivalencies. Need to see where it's going before moving them from my "second tier" (your term).

Oh yeah, exactly how much credence should we place in that EADA financial information? Should we really believe that Fordham is spending more on football than any team in the CAA, save JMU? More than Delaware? More than UMass? Should we believe that the Ivy League is spending only slightly more than Stony Brook and Wagner? I don't know about you, but the term "grain of salt" comes to my mind when I look at these numbers.

[Pard4Life]

This thread is nothing radically new... the PL must institute football scholarships or else we will stagnate.. and revert to sub-Ivy and NEC football.. yet much above the MAAC and PFL.. Lafayette did not just pour $20 million into a new palace to let this happen.. nor will Lehigh's tradition and atmosphere let that happen...

We are already heding in the right direction... intriguing OOC schedules.. take note of Colgate... Furman, TCU, Air Force, Albany.. now this is a schedule... even Holy Cross is following this trend (Delaware last year). The most exciting games IMO for the Pards outside of Lehigh were teh Richmond games.. we need these games.. it got us into the playoffs and national recognition...

Keep the new schedules... get scholarships.. attract one more team = one fine league..

ps Don't we have a TV deal this year.. The Patriot Channel?

Lafayette marketing is outstanding and should be a model for everyone else... we advertise creatively in the paper, our website is outstanding with info and media.. unfortunately we don't see 10,000 every game..

[Pard4Life]

Fordham - you are accurate on all points about $$ and equivalencies...

BUT... i think the perception on poor committment comes from:

-a one-grand stand stadium
-crappy bleachers
-sharing a baseball field
-preception of cramped practice fields and facilities
-unstable coaching

I know Fordham is a solid program and I like going to games there/don't really find the set-up that poor.. but this is what others might see.. xtwocentsx

[OLPOP]

My understanding is that Fordham now has over 50 equivilencies.

[bison137]

Bucknell and Holy Cross are odd, I cant fugure out if they want to have outstanding football programs, or are content funnelling more funds toward basketball and hoping for the best on the gridiron.


Other than the fact that BU and HC have very good, long-time basketball coaches who are paid more than many PL coaches (especially in the case of Ralph Willard at HC), I'm not sure that either of them funnel a lot more money to hoops than do other PL schools. All league members give out either 12 scholarhips (Bucknell, Lafayette, Colgate, and Lehigh (?)) or 13 (HC and American), or essentially unlimited (Army and Navy). And I doubt if the recruiting budgets differ by a huge amount. Most of these coaches seem to turn up in the same places at the same times.

[Lafayette71]

I think what you are all forgetting is that the money these schools spend on their facilities and programs is really to provide the student-athletes with the best college experience $44,000 a year can buy.
xlolx xlolx xlolx

[Go...gate]

This thread is nothing radically new... the PL must institute football scholarships or else we will stagnate.. and revert to sub-Ivy and NEC football.. yet much above the MAAC and PFL.. Lafayette did not just pour $20 million into a new palace to let this happen.. nor will Lehigh's tradition and atmosphere let that happen...

We are already heding in the right direction... intriguing OOC schedules.. take note of Colgate... Furman, TCU, Air Force, Albany.. now this is a schedule... even Holy Cross is following this trend (Delaware last year). The most exciting games IMO for the Pards outside of Lehigh were teh Richmond games.. we need these games.. it got us into the playoffs and national recognition...

Keep the new schedules... get scholarships.. attract one more team = one fine league..

ps Don't we have a TV deal this year.. The Patriot Channel?

Lafayette marketing is outstanding and should be a model for everyone else... we advertise creatively in the paper, our website is outstanding with info and media.. unfortunately we don't see 10,000 every game..

Whan are we playing TCU in Football???? This is big news.

[carney2]

My understanding is that Fordham now has over 50 equivilencies.

Here's hoping that your "understanding," my "understanding" and all of the rest of the information that floats around and passes as "fact" in these discussions gets nailed down sometime soon. My scuttlebutt comes from some people on this board who I respect and trust. Your handle indicates that you may be closer to a certain situation than most of the rest of us and may, therefore, have some "insider" info. Anyway, if we accept your "more than 50" number to be true, is it the result of the latest recruiting class or is it your understanding that it has been that high for a while?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Other than the fact that BU and HC have very good, long-time basketball coaches who are paid more than many PL coaches (especially in the case of Ralph Willard at HC), I'm not sure that either of them funnel a lot more money to hoops than do other PL schools. All league members give out either 12 scholarhips (Bucknell, Lafayette, Colgate, and Lehigh (?)) or 13 (HC and American), or essentially unlimited (Army and Navy). And I doubt if the recruiting budgets differ by a huge amount. Most of these coaches seem to turn up in the same places at the same times.

I'm going to get into this next week. Although this may not be a money issue per se, it could be a recruiting issue.

Some Lehigh person correct me if I'm wrong, but Lehigh only offers 8 scholarships for men's basketball - two per class. I'm not sure this is the case now, but I think it was the case when we adopted scholarships at first.

[Go...gate]

Fordham - you are accurate on all points about $$ and equivalencies...

BUT... i think the perception on poor committment comes from:

-a one-grand stand stadium
-crappy bleachers
-sharing a baseball field
-preception of cramped practice fields and facilities
-unstable coaching

I know Fordham is a solid program and I like going to games there/don't really find the set-up that poor.. but this is what others might see.. xtwocentsx

Agreed on this. Fordham's administration is for PL football and they are not going to the CAA in that sport.

[RichH2]

I think originally it was 2 a year but went up when Coach taylor took over. Whether it is 12 or 13 I do not know, but we have 12 on scholarship now and rumor has it that there is one more recruit.

[bison137]

I'm going to get into this next week. Although this may not be a money issue per se, it could be a recruiting issue.

Some Lehigh person correct me if I'm wrong, but Lehigh only offers 8 scholarships for men's basketball - two per class. I'm not sure this is the case now, but I think it was the case when we adopted scholarships at first.


Based on what some LU people have told me, and by the number of players on their roster who have supposedly been given free rides, I do not believe this is correct. I think LU will have at least 12 men's hoop players on scholarship this fall.

[flea]

Great thread

[Franks Tanks]

Other than the fact that BU and HC have very good, long-time basketball coaches who are paid more than many PL coaches (especially in the case of Ralph Willard at HC), I'm not sure that either of them funnel a lot more money to hoops than do other PL schools. All league members give out either 12 scholarhips (Bucknell, Lafayette, Colgate, and Lehigh (?)) or 13 (HC and American), or essentially unlimited (Army and Navy). And I doubt if the recruiting budgets differ by a huge amount. Most of these coaches seem to turn up in the same places at the same times.


Point well taken I didnt really have facts to stand behind my statement, it was my perception and I didnt word it well. Its just my thought that Bucknell would like to continue to emphasize their nationally reckionized b-ball squad. The Bison and Tom Gadd in the late 90's were as good and as consistent as any in football. You have been in a rough spot lately and we have all been there at one time or another. After lehigh I think Bucknell is our next best rivalry and I think that at the end of the day wherever Lafayette, Lehigh and Colgate decide to go in football Bucknell will certainly follow, although perhaps somewhat begrudiginly

[Fordham]

Fordham - you are accurate on all points about $$ and equivalencies...

BUT... i think the perception on poor committment comes from:

-a one-grand stand stadium
-crappy bleachers
-sharing a baseball field
-preception of cramped practice fields and facilities
-unstable coaching

I know Fordham is a solid program and I like going to games there/don't really find the set-up that poor.. but this is what others might see.. xtwocentsx No doubt about the facilities, pard. The only thing I'll add (which will come into play down below) is that the field turf installation included some other field upgrades that dramatically improved our game day experience ... not to mention brought about some night games for us (which are expected to be more plentiful this year). Overall, though, that's a pretty big albatross, I agree.

1. Lafayette just spent $30 million on a stadium upgrade and football central. Commitment! Lehigh has Goodman and there is rumbling of it getting an upgrade. Commitment! 'gate just spent $? on a giganto fan friendly scoreboard. Commitment! You had me until you mentioned the scoreboard. There's no way our field turf installation and other facilities upgrades in 2005 were less of an investment than Colgate's scoreboard.


2. My understanding is that Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh are in the upper 50s as far as "equivalencies" are concerned and that no one else has yet cracked 50. Commitment! pffffftttt! no way. when dear old colgate13 was here we used to reference that it was a bit of a toss up as to which school, Fordham or Colgate, had the most equivalencies (ended up as a clear indication that it was indeed Colgate) and now in the past 2 months I see there start to be references to us being in this second level of equivalencies, along w/Bucknell. Nonsense. We've had our ~$3.5mm budget in place now for several years, which in every report I've ever read is more than Lafayette's f-ball budget. How does that work out to less equivalencies?


Oh yeah, exactly how much credence should we place in that EADA financial information? what data are you relying on to indicate that Lafayette has more equivalencies? So far I've only seen alot of "my understanding"s before your claims of more 'equivalencies' ... doesn't some independent data trump "my understanding"?

I'll finish this with that the facilities upgrade you guys had as well as the overall facilities at Lehigh are certainly a sign of strong commitment. It wasn't that long ago, though, that you guys were at the bottom of the barrell with a stadium that was falling apart, a president who was fervently anti-scholarship and seemingly anti-sports/football and questions about your longevity in either the PL or "I-AA" football. At a minimum I feel like we've had consistency on our side where I believe we've been at or near the top of the PL in terms of budget since the millenium and we've been making slow but steady progress on upgrading our facilities (practice field redone, new weight room, etc. in addition to the field turf installation this past year). All joking aside, I do feel we've shown a commitment to the sport that is on par with the commitment from the top schools in the conference.

[Andy]

Other than the fact that BU and HC have very good, long-time basketball coaches who are paid more than many PL coaches (especially in the case of Ralph Willard at HC), I'm not sure that either of them funnel a lot more money to hoops than do other PL schools. All league members give out either 12 scholarhips (Bucknell, Lafayette, Colgate, and Lehigh (?)) or 13 (HC and American), or essentially unlimited (Army and Navy). And I doubt if the recruiting budgets differ by a huge amount. Most of these coaches seem to turn up in the same places at the same times.

It looks like the numbers suggest otherwise, 137.

While HC's football expenses are 87% of Lafayette's figure, Lafayette's basketball expenses are only 59% of HC's. Football: LC 3.1mil HC 2.7mil. Hoops: LC 836K HC 1.4mil. The percentages are similar when comparing Lafayette and Bucknell. BU FB 2.48mil Hoops 1.36mil.

Lehigh Hoops 870k.

[ngineer]

1. I certainly don't know what's involved with the TV packages for these two and have never heard that the details are public information. Let's just say that I would be very surprised if there is serious money involved.
2. Think about it. If there were even a hint that the League powers were leaning toward one or another of the members, there would be a revolt and things would come crashing down. What we have are 3 schools (Colgate, Lafayette and Lehigh) that have made a serious commitment to football; two (Bucknell and Fordham) that seem to be on the fence; and two more (Georgetown and Holy Cross) that are unable/unwilling. The League is a decent match academically, but from a football standpoint it is doubtful that all 7 will ever be on the same page.

Yes, I doubt the schools see much financial remuneration. The primary goal is exposure and it sure seems to have worked for both schools. I know a number of Lehigh recruits got interested by seeing Lehigh on TV out in western PA and Ohio due to the games being on Fox Pittsburgh.

[ngineer]

Point well taken I didnt really have facts to stand behind my statement, it was my perception and I didnt word it well. Its just my thought that Bucknell would like to continue to emphasize their nationally reckionized b-ball squad. The Bison and Tom Gadd in the late 90's were as good and as consistent as any in football. You have been in a rough spot lately and we have all been there at one time or another. After lehigh I think Bucknell is our next best rivalry and I think that at the end of the day wherever Lafayette, Lehigh and Colgate decide to go in football Bucknell will certainly follow, although perhaps somewhat begrudiginly

Yes, the 'core' of the PL is these four schools. They have long traditions among them and compete over alot of the same students. HC,FU and GU certainly 'belong' with the other four, but due to the longstanding relationship between the 'core four', they will decide where the PL goes on these longterm issues. BTW--Lehigh/Bucknell series is now 71 games--second longest uninterrupted series for us. Colgate is 45 games; whereas
HC is 22 games, FU is 21 and GU-10, and with those series really getting started in the last two decade (a couple skirmishes way back). But since 1950's Lehigh and Bucknell have played almost every year, and it's been pretty much uninterrupted with Colgate since 1960. Football is such a tradition-steeped sport that relationships are, at least, in the subconscious of many decisions. Not to say, things can't change (i.e. Pitt/Penn State rivalry kicked to the curb), but I sense that the AD's at BU, CU, LC and LU recognize their unique situation.

[bison137]

It looks like the numbers suggest otherwise, 137.

While HC's football expenses are 87% of Lafayette's figure, Lafayette's basketball expenses are only 59% of HC's. Football: LC 3.1mil HC 2.7mil. Hoops: LC 836K HC 1.4mil. The percentages are similar when comparing Lafayette and Bucknell. BU FB 2.48mil Hoops 1.36mil.

Lehigh Hoops 870k.

I've looked at these figures a number of times over the years and, while they're interesting, for a number of reasons I'm not sure they mean much:

1. There are few guidelines for who categorizes what items as expenses attributable to a given sport. As the report says, "Please note that valid comparisons of athletics data are possible only with study and analysis of the conditions affecting each institution." Unfortunately none of us has enough data to have any idea if these numbers are apples to apples.

2. The year that you cite, which is 2005 data, was very different from the two preceding years. For the two preceding years, these were the average hoops "operating expenses" for BU, LC, and LU: BU $888,000, LC $888,000, and LU $781,000. I believe that there were a lot of moving pieces that caused the BU number to jump last year: (a) major expenses in flying the team and dozens of related individuals to the NCAA tournament for five days, (b) much higher attendance with commensurate cost increases in terms of employees, food and merchandise purchased, and marketing, (c) scholarships having more impact on the numbers, (d) salary increase for Flannery, (e) more travel.

3. It is clear that PL teams report these numbers in different ways. For example, both BU and LC show matching numbers for revenue and expense every year, meaning that some dollars are moved in or out of the figures annually to make them match up. In contrast, LU shows expenses and revenues that aren't close to each other every year.

4. Unfortunately no sport-specific figures are given for "recruiting". However, for men's sports in total both LC and LU spend about 13% more on recruiting than does Bucknell. (The difference was almost 35% the year before, so BU has closed the gap a bit.) My guess is that the schools spend about the same in sports other than football.


The original discussion was whether BU is "funneling more funds" to basketball than the better football schools are. The only apparent difference is in the last report. And the extra money being spent is largely due to an NCAA appearance, more travel, higher coach's salary (maybe), and expenses attributable to drawing a larger attendance, plus more scholarship money (at least compared to LC). The expense increase has been more than offset by higher revenue.

In the absence of real clear data, I don't believe there is much difference between the schools' hoops programs when it comes to expenses designed to improve the team. Just comparing BU and LC for a moment, (1) both will be spending the same amount on scholarships once LC gets four classes in under the new policy; (2) Since O'Hanlon's contract was re-done, I believe his salary and Flannery's are similar; and (3) recruiting budgets are similar, as best I can determine. The biggest difference is that BU has had more exposure due to having some good teams and playing in some high profile events.

BTW, the other clear difference between the three programs is that BU clearly has the better hoops facility. But that apparently has little or no impact on the numbers because BU actually had lower expenses than LC for the first year when Sojka was open.

[Pard4Life]

Whan are we playing TCU in Football???? This is big news.

Sometime next decade? I am sure I heard that on this board or elsewhere.. I don't think I'm making it up.. please help verify, someone..

I know AirForce is definete..

[Andy]

I've looked at these figures a number of times over the years and, while they're interesting, for a number of reasons I'm not sure they mean much:

1. There are few guidelines for who categorizes what items as expenses attributable to a given sport. As the report says, "Please note that valid comparisons of athletics data are possible only with study and analysis of the conditions affecting each institution." Unfortunately none of us has enough data to have any idea if these numbers are apples to apples.

2. The year that you cite, which is 2005 data, was very different from the two preceding years. For the two preceding years, these were the average hoops "operating expenses" for BU, LC, and LU: BU $888,000, LC $888,000, and LU $781,000. I believe that there were a lot of moving pieces that caused the BU number to jump last year: (a) major expenses in flying the team and dozens of related individuals to the NCAA tournament for five days, (b) much higher attendance with commensurate cost increases in terms of employees, food and merchandise purchased, and marketing, (c) scholarships having more impact on the numbers, (d) salary increase for Flannery, (e) more travel.

3. It is clear that PL teams report these numbers in different ways. For example, both BU and LC show matching numbers for revenue and expense every year, meaning that some dollars are moved in or out of the figures annually to make them match up. In contrast, LU shows expenses and revenues that aren't close to each other every year.

4. Unfortunately no sport-specific figures are given for "recruiting". However, for men's sports in total both LC and LU spend about 13% more on recruiting than does Bucknell. (The difference was almost 35% the year before, so BU has closed the gap a bit.) My guess is that the schools spend about the same in sports other than football.


The original discussion was whether BU is "funneling more funds" to basketball than the better football schools are. The only apparent difference is in the last report. And the extra money being spent is largely due to an NCAA appearance, more travel, higher coach's salary (maybe), and expenses attributable to drawing a larger attendance, plus more scholarship money (at least compared to LC). The expense increase has been more than offset by higher revenue.

In the absence of real clear data, I don't believe there is much difference between the schools' hoops programs when it comes to expenses designed to improve the team. Just comparing BU and LC for a moment, (1) both will be spending the same amount on scholarships once LC gets four classes in under the new policy; (2) Since O'Hanlon's contract was re-done, I believe his salary and Flannery's are similar; and (3) recruiting budgets are similar, as best I can determine. The biggest difference is that BU has had more exposure due to having some good teams and playing in some high profile events.

BTW, the other clear difference between the three programs is that BU clearly has the better hoops facility. But that apparently has little or no impact on the numbers because BU actually had lower expenses than LC for the first year when Sojka was open.

1) I disagree. I don't think there's as much mystery to what makes up "expenses" as some say. OPE defines what makes up "expenses", there'd be no point in requesting figures if the reporting requirements weren't defined and uniform. The major components of football and basketball budgets--student aid, game day expenses (operating expenses), and salaries are either given or able to be estimated. Sure some line items are left out--such as recruitng expenses per sport--but they're a small percentage item.


Data is compiled and available on the OPE site for schools from different sanctioning bodies and for different divisions within those sanctioning bodies, so their caution statement about comparisons is understandable; however, when comparing two PL schools one can be pretty sure the numbers are "apples to apples".

2)The data I cited is for the 12 month period ending June, '06. "Operating expenses" are "game day expenses" and don't include some items you mention such as salaries, scholarships and marketing. BU's operating expenses were 300k as opposed to LC's 110k, so they account for 200k of the 500k difference in the schools' bball expenses. I agree, the difference in OE could be attributable to BU's tourney appearance (and maybe a European trip?)

3) The LC reported revenue figures didn't match expenses in this report, but they were close. The major component of both revenues and expenses is student aid. Donations are a component of revenue. Maybe the level of sport specific donations could be the basis for some schools reporting a loss and others a small gain.

4) Agreed, but recruiting expenses are a small % of total expenses. Yes, LC reports 25k more in recruiting expenses than BU.

In general it looks to me that Franks Tanks was pretty accurate in his statement. The perceived emphasis of basketball at HC and BU, perhaps at the expense of football, is supported by the dollar figures. If the $500-600k difference in HC's and BU's budgets compared to LC or LU is made up of higher coaches' salaries, more scholarship dollars, perhaps a preseason European trip--well, that's emphasis. But, I think in the near future we'll see the gap narrow, at least as far as LC is concerned.

[ngineer]

I know a good portion of the recruiting expense at Lehigh is borne by the Athletics Partnership Fund. So whether those dollars are included into the school's actual expense/income ledger is unknown to me. In other words, if Lehigh alumni/friends contribute $300K to football in the Athletic Partnership, does that money get counted on the school's books as athletic 'income' or is it treated separately as 'gifts' to the University?

[colorless raider]

This thread is nothing radically new... the PL must institute football scholarships or else we will stagnate.. and revert to sub-Ivy and NEC football.. yet much above the MAAC and PFL.. Lafayette did not just pour $20 million into a new palace to let this happen.. nor will Lehigh's tradition and atmosphere let that happen...

We are already heding in the right direction... intriguing OOC schedules.. take note of Colgate... Furman, TCU, Air Force, Albany.. now this is a schedule... even Holy Cross is following this trend (Delaware last year). The most exciting games IMO for the Pards outside of Lehigh were teh into the playoffs and national recognition...

Keep the new schedules... get scholarships.. attract one more team = one fine league..

ps Don't we have a TV deal this year.. The Patriot Channel?

Lafayette marketing is outstanding and should be a model for everyone else... we advertise creatively in the paper, our website is outstanding with info and media.. unfortunately we don't see 10,000 every game..I am with Pard4Life on thie one but am not optimistic as outlined in a previous post.

[RichH2]

Partnership usually kicks in a good bit more than 300K but how that is split among sports?? It funds recruiting for the other sports also

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think there's a good reason why partnership $$ are dedicated to all sports, not just one over another - it would violate the league's structure. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't have a fund that just funds football scholarships, it has to be a "general scholarship fund" for all of athletics. That's what got Brown in trouble in 1999.

Furthermore, this makes the accounting that much harder.

[OLPOP]

Carney- My recollection is that I was told Fordham had 53-55 equivalencies in January 2006.

[Andy]

I know a good portion of the recruiting expense at Lehigh is borne by the Athletics Partnership Fund. So whether those dollars are included into the school's actual expense/income ledger is unknown to me. In other words, if Lehigh alumni/friends contribute $300K to football in the Athletic Partnership, does that money get counted on the school's books as athletic 'income' or is it treated separately as 'gifts' to the University?

According to OPE figures, LU and LC both spend right around $200k on recruiting for all male sports combined.Even if 80% of that figure is attributable to football, it's still a small part of our $3.1-3.2million budgets.

Just from reading the info on the OPE website it follows that, however funded, recruiting expenses are included in the overall expense figure and that any donations to cover them (or other expenses) are included in revenue.

If we assume 55 equivalencies at a cost of approx. $2mil, add the given $440k in operating expenses, say $150k in recruiting expenses and guessing approx. $400k(?) in salaries, we come pretty darn close to the LC expense figure of $3.1mil. I've read several posts on the various boards which indicate a few posters have some real insight and maybe professional involvement in the budget process for some of our members. I'd like to hear from them (as well as others thoughts) as to whether I'm in the ballpark with these figures.

[ngineer]

Partnership usually kicks in a good bit more than 300K but how that is split among sports?? It funds recruiting for the other sports also

I was just using that figure as an example. I know the Partnership was trying to raise $1 million this year, and it gets divided among the various sports--except those funds that people earmark for a particular sport. So I was just making a wild guess as to what portion of $1M would go to football--of which most would be for recruiting with all the travel expenses due to the 'bigger pond' we're fishing in, now.

[carney2]

Carney- My recollection is that I was told Fordham had 53-55 equivalencies in January 2006.

Good. I am taking that as gospel - not because it is a better "rumor" than the others floating around, but simply because I want it to be true.

[RichH2]

A better fantasy is that all PL schools were able to go to max # of equivalencies.

[colgate13]

Good stuff guys! Glad to see the off season isn't too boring!

[Pard4Life]

Good stuff guys! Glad to see the off season isn't too boring!

Hey 13.. is Colgate going to play TCU down the line or is that merely a rumor?

[colgate13]

Haven't heard that one... But I will say that playing BCS Buffalo next year should be included as well. Horrible BCS team, but still a BCS team with 80 schollies.

Next year's OCC is pretty tough for Colgate: Stony Brook, Buffalo, Furman, Dartmouth, Princeton and Cornell. We should be well tested for the league games, that's for sure.

[LBPop]

This may have been mentioned in an earlier post, but I was so stunned to see the Colgate 13 moniker, that I had to offer my little bit of information. I had the opportunity last week to speak to someone very tuned into the Patriot League football scene. He said that the league is looking very seriously at altering its stance on "need only" aid. He used the term "merit", but I'm not sure how they would define that.

It seems that the league is very concerned about the growing disparity between its football programs and the Ivys. I think Tavani expressed it best in comments I saw a few weeks ago. With the steadily rising academic indicies for the PL schools, they are having a tougher time competing with the name recognition of the Ivys. I would not be surprised to see a change in policy within a couple of years...just in time for LBKid to be out of Georgetown...timing is everything.xbawlingx

With respect to Georgetown, I fear that every change that permits more money to be spent, puts the Hoyas at a bigger disadvantage. If you don't have it, you can't spend it. It's really so sad to visit a campus sitting on some of the most valuable real estate in the world and know that they have no cash. And after paying for three years at Georgetown, I can certainly relate. :D xrolleyesx :( xbawlingx

[PLLB]

Next year's OCC is pretty tough for Colgate: Stony Brook, Buffalo, Furman, Dartmouth, Princeton and Cornell. We should be well tested for the league games, that's for sure.


2007 schedule, you posted 2008.
9/1/2007 Albany Andy Kerr Stadium, Hamilton, N.Y. TBA
9/8/2007 Massachusetts Andy Kerr Stadium, Hamilton, N.Y. TBA
9/15/2007 Dartmouth Hanover, N.H. TBA
9/29/2007 Fordham (Hall of Honor Weekend) Andy Kerr Stadium, Hamilton, N.Y. TBA
10/6/2007 Bucknell (Homecoming) Andy Kerr Stadium, Hamilton, N.Y.
TBA
10/13/2007 Cornell Ithaca, N.Y. TBA
10/20/2007 Towson (Family Weekend) Andy Kerr Stadium, Hamilton,
N.Y. TBA
10/27/2007 Lafayette Easton, Pa. TBA
11/3/2007 Lehigh Andy Kerr Stadium, Hamilton, N.Y. TBA
11/10/2007 Georgetown Washington, D.C. TBA
11/17/2007 Holy Cross Worcester, Mass. TBA

[RichH2]

Lehigh, Colgate, LC and Fu for merit scholarships HC,GU agin Bucknell on the fence

[colgate13]

Next year's OCC is pretty tough for Colgate: Stony Brook, Buffalo, Furman, Dartmouth, Princeton and Cornell. We should be well tested for the league games, that's for sure.


2007 schedule, you posted 2008.
9/1/2007 Albany Andy Kerr Stadium, Hamilton, N.Y. TBA
9/8/2007 Massachusetts Andy Kerr Stadium, Hamilton, N.Y. TBA
9/15/2007 Dartmouth Hanover, N.H. TBA
9/29/2007 Fordham (Hall of Honor Weekend) Andy Kerr Stadium, Hamilton, N.Y. TBA
10/6/2007 Bucknell (Homecoming) Andy Kerr Stadium, Hamilton, N.Y.
TBA
10/13/2007 Cornell Ithaca, N.Y. TBA
10/20/2007 Towson (Family Weekend) Andy Kerr Stadium, Hamilton,
N.Y. TBA
10/27/2007 Lafayette Easton, Pa. TBA
11/3/2007 Lehigh Andy Kerr Stadium, Hamilton, N.Y. TBA
11/10/2007 Georgetown Washington, D.C. TBA
11/17/2007 Holy Cross Worcester, Mass. TBA

xdohx

My bad.

[colgate13]

Lehigh, Colgate, LC and Fu for merit scholarships HC,GU agin Bucknell on the fence

Somethings haven't changed I guess.

Bucknell is the surprising one. With the success in hoops you think they'd see the light.

[Go...gate]

This may have been mentioned in an earlier post, but I was so stunned to see the Colgate 13 moniker, that I had to offer my little bit of information. I had the opportunity last week to speak to someone very tuned into the Patriot League football scene. He said that the league is looking very seriously at altering its stance on "need only" aid. He used the term "merit", but I'm not sure how they would define that.

It seems that the league is very concerned about the growing disparity between its football programs and the Ivys. I think Tavani expressed it best in comments I saw a few weeks ago. With the steadily rising academic indicies for the PL schools, they are having a tougher time competing with the name recognition of the Ivys. I would not be surprised to see a change in policy within a couple of years...just in time for LBKid to be out of Georgetown...timing is everything.xbawlingx

With respect to Georgetown, I fear that every change that permits more money to be spent, puts the Hoyas at a bigger disadvantage. If you don't have it, you can't spend it. It's really so sad to visit a campus sitting on some of the most valuable real estate in the world and know that they have no cash. And after paying for three years at Georgetown, I can certainly relate. :D xrolleyesx :( xbawlingx

How did Georgetown find itself in this economic predicament? I never realized they were so strapped and I don't understand why.

[LBPop]

How did Georgetown find itself in this economic predicament? I never realized they were so strapped and I don't understand why.
I would completely defer to DFW on this. I have speculated that one contributing factor would likely be salaries. The cost of living anywhere near Georgetown is very steep. For that reason (and others) my guess is that the faculty members there are among the highest paid in the country. The school would have to pay them well to allow them to live in the vicinity. Another factor is the hospital. While very highly regarded, it devours cash--like many hospitals, it's a big loser. It was sold, but my understanding is that the school underwrites the losses. However, Georgetown University Hospital is a brand name and the school simply cannot afford to have it shut down.

As I mentioned, DFW is the expert and I may have some of my facts wrong here. Hopefully he will jump in with some much better information.