Would San Diego win the patriot?

[97Torero]

The Ags community bashes the pioneer (rightfully so) due to its lack of scholarships. But the patriot has full scholarships and I don’t see what competitive advantage they have developed with it. Just my thinking out loud.

[Professor Chaos]

Yes

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The PL is stinks. San Diego would definitely be in the mix. Plenty of crappy scholarship teams FCS. The PL just happens to be filled with them. The lack of red shirting and roster limits helps to offset the advantage of having scholarships. Some blah coaches too....

[Bison56]

Yes

[JacksFan40]

Yes and Dayton probably could as well. Drake would make a run for it.

[caribbeanhen]

Carmen San Diego would win the Patriot

[bonarae]

Yes...

[Bison56]

Carmen San Diego would win the Patriot

xlolx nice

[Sader87]

Maybe, but it's not clear cut imo. Holy Cross beat UNH. Fordham beat Richmond. GTown beat both Cornell and Columbia on the road.

It wouldn't be a walk in the park imo.I wish SD would join the PL...great road trip!

[crusader11]

Based on looking at their schedule and how they’ve matched up with some good programs (Davis, Poly, Harvard), they’d definitely be one of — if not the — best teams in the PL this year.

We may see how USD compares to HC after HC’s game against Harvard next week.

HC played at USD about 12-15 years ago when Harbaugh was coaching there. Let’s renew that series!

[97Torero]

G Town loss to Davidson, which made me think of it today.
San Diego plays on the east coast so much (4 trips to the eastern time zone this year), they could probably be in the league. Ha. Come to San Diego for recruiting.

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I recall a couple good games back then. I believe it was a split series.

[crusader11]

G Town loss to Davidson, which made me think of it today.
San Diego plays on the east coast so much (4 trips to the eastern time zone this year), they could probably be in the league. Ha. Come to San Diego for recruiting.

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I recall a couple good games back then. I believe it was a split series.


Yes, we played USD in Dan Allen’s final season (2003) in San Diego and then the following year at home in Worcester.

Those were tough years for HC football for a number of reasons.

[ElCid]

This year? Yes.

[DFW HOYA]

No.

[JacksFan40]

No.
Yes they would and don’t deny it.

[DFW HOYA]

Yes they would and don’t deny it.

Not the same playing field as in the PL. And try doing it w/o redshirts and the PL's subservience to the Ivy League index--it's not that easy.

[ngineer]

Maybe, but it's not clear cut imo. Holy Cross beat UNH. Fordham beat Richmond. GTown beat both Cornell and Columbia on the road.

It wouldn't be a walk in the park imo.I wish SD would join the PL...great road trip!

This!

[ngineer]

Since scholarships we have more talent, but less bodies. So if we can stay healthy, we can be decent. Once the injury bug bites the 'second level' of talent/depth usually shows a drop off. So as "teams" we are haven't really improved and compared to the rest of FCS, have taken a step back.

[DFW HOYA]

Would anyone like to guess what Georgetown would be doing in the PL if Rob Sgarlata had 60 scholarships to give?

[Professor Chaos]

Since scholarships we have more talent, but less bodies. So if we can stay healthy, we can be decent. Once the injury bug bites the 'second level' of talent/depth usually shows a drop off. So as "teams" we are haven't really improved and compared to the rest of FCS, have taken a step back.
What I don't quite get is when Fordham started offering schollies a few years before the rest of the PL (and were ineligible for the PL title/autobid) they were running roughshod over the rest of the league and routinely in the top 10-15 of the national rankings IIRC. How did that happen? Were they handling things differently than PL teams do now? Or was Joe Moorhead just that good of a coach/recruiter?

[Gangtackle11]

Nova played 3 PL teams. Seen them up close. Yes.

Holy Cross is a maybe since I haven’t seen HC up close. xpeacex

[JacksFan40]

Not the same playing field as in the PL. And try doing it w/o redshirts and the PL's subservience to the Ivy League index--it's not that easy.
San Diego played competitively with a Big Sky team and beat Harvard. Last year Colgate would’ve stomped them but there’s no PL anywhere as good as Colgate was last year.

[DFW HOYA]

San Diego played competitively with a Big Sky team and beat Harvard. Last year Colgate would’ve stomped them but there’s no PL anywhere as good as Colgate was last year.

San Diego offers up to $25,000 a year in merit aid to its students. Two PL schools offer no merit aid whatsoever and the other five do so on a very limited basis.

https://www.sandiego.edu/financialaid/scholarships/university-scholarships.php

[crusader11]

Would anyone like to guess what Georgetown would be doing in the PL if Rob Sgarlata had 60 scholarships to give?

Georgetown is finding other ways to get kids into school.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown is finding other ways to get kids into school.

They follow the rules. If you have evidence to the contrary, report it to the PL office; otherwise, move on.

[crusader11]

They follow the rules. If you have evidence to the contrary, report it to the PL office; otherwise, move on.

I’m no insinuating they’re not playing by the rules, but they are providing aid to incoming players. While not scholarship, per se, it’s not like these kids aren’t receiving any packages.

[ngineer]

Would anyone like to guess what Georgetown would be doing in the PL if Rob Sgarlata had 60 scholarships to give?

Might be doing worse. The other schools have suffered from a lack of bodies because the PL does not allow "Mix and matching" scholarships with need based grants. The scholarships have allowed us to recruit some excellent athletes without regard to their family income, but limited to the number allowed to be given. Dunlap was right ten years ago when he said, overall, we'd be doing worse.

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[Sader87]

Holy Cross is better with football scholarships again. May be due to the fact that it was the only PL program to have football scholarships prior to the formation of the PL.

Need based aid for football never worked imo at Holy Cross.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Holy Cross is better with football scholarships again. May be due to the fact that it was the only PL program to have football scholarships prior to the formation of the PL.

Need based aid for football never worked imo at Holy Cross.

HUH? Need to post a winning record first. Holy Cross is maybe "ok" this season? I think the Harvard game will show their merit. HC is nowhere close to as good as they were in '08 and '09 with Randolph. Fordham is the only one who showed drastic improvement with the addition of schollies. Even with the Rams I think a lot of their success from '12-'15 can be attributed to coaching/Moorhead more than scholarships.

Need based aid didn't work for HC because their administration was clueless or simply didn't care. Not the PL's fault. Lehigh and Colgate put forth some elite FCS teams under that model. Just like HC did with scholarships 1980's...

Sometimes i have to keep your spin in check '87....

[NY Crusader 2010]

Patriot League collectively wiped a little bit of the egg off it's face yesterday. HC's offensive explosion against Brown coupled with wins by UNH and Richmond (our two CAA "scalps") boosted our street cred a hair.

But yes, if San Diego were in the league right now, they would currently be the favorite. Holy Cross-Harvard will be a major bell-weather next week.

Probably thinking a little too far ahead, but here's a crazy thought -- if we beat Harvard tomorrow and finish second in the PL at 5-1 (hypothetically losing to league champ Fordham let's say), it wouldn't be far-fetched that the PL could be a two-bid league. An 8-4 Holy Cross with 2 FBS losses would most definitely be in the at-large discussion, barring major collapses by Harvard and UNH.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Patriot League collectively wiped a little bit of the egg off it's face yesterday. HC's offensive explosion against Brown coupled with wins by UNH and Richmond (our two CAA "scalps") boosted our street cred a hair.

But yes, if San Diego were in the league right now, they would currently be the favorite. Holy Cross-Harvard will be a major bell-weather next week.

Probably thinking a little too far ahead, but here's a crazy thought -- if we beat Harvard tomorrow and finish second in the PL at 5-1 (hypothetically losing to league champ Fordham let's say), it wouldn't be far-fetched that the PL could be a two-bid league. An 8-4 Holy Cross with 2 FBS losses would most definitely be in the at-large discussion, barring major collapses by Harvard and UNH.

I'm not sure racking up points against a 1-3 Brown team with one of the worst defenses in FCS is going to impress anyone. The win over UNH will definitely carry some weight. Cross caught Wildcats at the perfect time and took advantage of it.

The only way I see HC getting at large consideration is by starting to dominate teams. Everyone knows the PL is awful so if you want to be considered good it's time to start kicking the crap out of these tomato cans. A dominating win over Harvard would help too. Especially considering Harvard is probably the 3rd or 4th best team in the IL. That will get people to really take notice imo. Just like Dartmouth's 42-10 win over Yale.

If HC is at large worthy then they are easily PL auto-bid good. No reason they should drop a PL game.

'Gate didn't sniff the playoffs in 2017 with a 7-4 record and a PL Co-Champ.

[Sader87]

HUH? Need to post a winning record first. Holy Cross is maybe "ok" this season? I think the Harvard game will show their merit. HC is nowhere close to as good as they were in '08 and '09 with Randolph. Fordham is the only one who showed drastic improvement with the addition of schollies. Even with the Rams I think a lot of their success from '12-'15 can be attributed to coaching/Moorhead more than scholarships.

Need based aid didn't work for HC because their administration was clueless or simply didn't care. Not the PL's fault. Lehigh and Colgate put forth some elite FCS teams under that model. Just like HC did with scholarships 1980's...

Sometimes i have to keep your spin in check '87....

It may have been self-induced somewhat but institutionally we had no history/experience with need based aid in football. We were always a scholarship program and our transition to a need based one was disastrous.

You cherry picked 2 years of roughly 25 years of mediocre to bad football at HC with need based aid.

The kids that have been coming to HC the last couple years are far better than we would get under the old rules.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

It may have been self-induced somewhat but institutionally we had no history/experience with need based aid in football. We were always a scholarship program and our transition to a need based one was disastrous.

You cherry picked 2 years of roughly 25 years of mediocre to bad football at HC with need based aid.

The kids that have been coming to HC the last couple years are far better than we would get under the old rules.

Holy Cross was also a bad 1-A scholarship program for their last 20 or so years at that level. Administration couldn't quite figure that one out so they wisely reclassified to 1-AA.

Outside of the 6-8 year stretch in the 80's to early 90's HC has been bad to middling the last 50 years. We'll see if Chesney can recapture those Duffner/Carter days. I think he'll have one legit season before moving on. Then? Do they hire the next Chesney/Willard or the next Milan Brown/Bill Carmody?

Holy Cross has two 1-AA/FCS playoff appearances in their history. That's fewer than Lafayette.....

[Sader87]

Holy Cross was also a bad 1-A scholarship program for their last 20 or so years at that level. Administration couldn't quite figure that one out so they wisely reclassified to 1-AA.

Outside of the 6-8 year stretch in the 80's to early 90's HC has been bad to middling the last 50 years. We'll see if Chesney can recapture those Duffner/Carter days. I think he'll have one legit season before moving on. Then? Do they hire the next Chesney/Willard or the next Milan Brown/Bill Carmody?

Holy Cross has two 1-AA/FCS playoff appearances in their history. That's fewer than Lafayette.....

HC, like Colgate, W&M, Richmond etc was really 1-A in name only from the mid 1960s or so to the creation of the 1AA level. Point being, it was the perfect landing spot for a scholarship HC program. But, like not joining the Big East in basketball, we basically handcuffed ourselves in football as well.

HC would have been in many more playoffs if they were allowed to by the PL in the 80s and 90s. We also chose to play BC instead of the playoffs a couple times.

Back to the argument at hand, HC football has a much brighter future with scholarships than it did under need based aid.

[DFW HOYA]

Probably thinking a little too far ahead, but here's a crazy thought -- if we beat Harvard tomorrow and finish second in the PL at 5-1 (hypothetically losing to league champ Fordham let's say), it wouldn't be far-fetched that the PL could be a two-bid league.

This year, it's far-fetched. The NEC has basically taken away a PL at-large bid from years gone by.

[lucchesicourt]

And, I understand according to NCAA rules all schollies athletes get count as athletic schollies. UC Davis when D2 did not offer schollies, but had a total of 7 these types of schollies count as 7 athletic schollies.

[The Boogie Down]

HC, like Colgate, W&M, Richmond etc was really 1-A in name only from the mid 1960s or so to the creation of the 1AA level.

I think this was the case for HC and the Ivies. But IMO Colgate, W&M and Rich had really been I-A in name only since the post-War years. Conversely, through all those years, I think Villanova was a true I-A (just not a good one) right up until the time they announced the drop.

[crusader11]

I'm not sure racking up points against a 1-3 Brown team with one of the worst defenses in FCS is going to impress anyone. The win over UNH will definitely carry some weight. Cross caught Wildcats at the perfect time and took advantage of it.

The only way I see HC getting at large consideration is by starting to dominate teams. Everyone knows the PL is awful so if you want to be considered good it's time to start kicking the crap out of these tomato cans. A dominating win over Harvard would help too. Especially considering Harvard is probably the 3rd or 4th best team in the IL. That will get people to really take notice imo. Just like Dartmouth's 42-10 win over Yale.

If HC is at large worthy then they are easily PL auto-bid good. No reason they should drop a PL game.

'Gate didn't sniff the playoffs in 2017 with a 7-4 record and a PL Co-Champ.

In this hypothetical, HC would be 8-2 against FCS teams with the losses coming against Yale and, presumably, the PL Champion.

If UNH were to finish in the top 15 and Harvard at the top of the Ivy, those would be viewed as good to very good wins.

There’d definitely be a case to be made for an at large, although a lot would depend on what the resumes look like of other teams vying for a bid.

Let’s just win the league outright. Really no reason HC should not win this league.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The only way the PL could get an at-large bid is if Holy Cross finishes 7-4 (5-1) and New Hampshire runs the table, beating Delaware on the road, Villanova, and JMU. In other words, no.

If Fordham goes 5-1 in the PL they'll be 6-5, so again, no.

Lehigh could also finish 7-4 (5-1) but they would be an even weaker 7-4 than Holy Cross since they wouldn't be able to hang their hats on a big OOC win. The St. Francis (PA) loss doesn't look awful but it would be a weak resume no matter how you look at it.

[NY Crusader 2010]

The only way the PL could get an at-large bid is if Holy Cross finishes 7-4 (5-1) and New Hampshire runs the table, beating Delaware on the road, Villanova, and JMU. In other words, no.

If Fordham goes 5-1 in the PL they'll be 6-5, so again, no.

Lehigh could also finish 7-4 (5-1) but they would be an even weaker 7-4 than Holy Cross since they wouldn't be able to hang their hats on a big OOC win. The St. Francis (PA) loss doesn't look awful but it would be a weak resume no matter how you look at it.

Small quibble -- Holy Cross would be 8-4, not 7-4. And with two FBS losses. Anyway, the odds that this exact scenario plays out is slim. Basically, Holy Cross is currently the only PL team with even the remotest "pie in the sky" shot to be considered for an at-large. Also, remember with playoff expansion to 24 teams and with the Celebration Bowl effectively adding another at-large spot, the committee usually finds itself considering the likes of 6-5 Valley teams, 7-4 CAA teams or 8-3 PL teams to fill the field. So IMO an 8-4 Holy Cross with wins over Harvard and UNH would at least get a serious sniff.

Also why would UNH have to "run the table" for that win still to be considered quality. If UNH beats Delaware and loses to 'Nova and JMU but rebounds to beat Maine to end the year, they should still be in or just outside the Top 25, no?

[Sader87]

I think this was the case for HC and the Ivies. But IMO Colgate, W&M and Rich had really been I-A in name only since the post-War years. Conversely, through all those years, I think Villanova was a true I-A (just not a good one) right up until the time they announced the drop.

Villanova was basically at the same level as HC until they dropped football in 1980. They actually played each other a fair amount in the 1970s.

They played very odd schedules in the 70s. Some East Indies like BC, HC, Navy etc but also lower D1 teams all over the place: Tampa, Xavier, Idaho etc

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Small quibble -- Holy Cross would be 8-4, not 7-4. And with two FBS losses. Anyway, the odds that this exact scenario plays out is slim. Basically, Holy Cross is currently the only PL team with even the remotest "pie in the sky" shot to be considered for an at-large. Also, remember with playoff expansion to 24 teams and with the Celebration Bowl effectively adding another at-large spot, the committee usually finds itself considering the likes of 6-5 Valley teams, 7-4 CAA teams or 8-3 PL teams to fill the field. So IMO an 8-4 Holy Cross with wins over Harvard and UNH would at least get a serious sniff.

Also why would UNH have to "run the table" for that win still to be considered quality. If UNH beats Delaware and loses to 'Nova and JMU but rebounds to beat Maine to end the year, they should still be in or just outside the Top 25, no?

Looking at their schedule again, and the teams they've beaten, I think you're right. I guess my point is that if they go 6-5, that OOC win loses a lot of value. I agree at 7-4 with their brutal schedule they might get some at-large love. Personally though for it to count in HC's favor, 8-3, or ideally 9-2 would really help.

[NY Crusader 2010]

I was definitely among the "UNH haters" who thought, "if they lost to us, they can't be that good". I definitely did not expect them to beat Stony Brook on Saturday. And here they are in the middle of a CAA title race in Week 8. They now head to the second of a brutal four game stretch, though I believe they get a bye somewhere in the middle of those games.

[crusader11]

A 12 game schedule, LFN. 12. Twelve.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A 12 game schedule, LFN. 12. Twelve.

xthumbsupx

8-4 (5-1) Holy Cross would need either a 9-2 or 8-3 New Hampshire to have that OOC win be a big value.

[DFW HOYA]

Villanova was basically at the same level as HC until they dropped football in 1980. They actually played each other a fair amount in the 1970s.

They played very odd schedules in the 70s. Some East Indies like BC, HC, Navy etc but also lower D1 teams all over the place: Tampa, Xavier, Idaho etc

The Tampa schedules were crazy in their brief sojourn in I-A. The 1971 Spartans schedule:

Louisiana Tech
at Chattanooga
Youngstown St.
Dayton
at Drake
Villanova
at Louisville
Ole Miss
East Carolina
at Vanderbilt
Florida A&M

[The Boogie Down]

Villanova was basically at the same level as HC until they dropped football in 1980. They actually played each other a fair amount in the 1970s.

They played very odd schedules in the 70s. Some East Indies like BC, HC, Navy etc but also lower D1 teams all over the place: Tampa, Xavier, Idaho etc

It was an odd schedule but still a stronger one than what HC or the Ivies were playing. Like I said, they weren't a good I-A but before dropping they were always clearly on the I-A side of the I-A/I-AA split. They were also 12-3 vs HC from the post-War years until dropping in 1980. So again, a higher level than HC.

[Sader87]

It was an odd schedule but still a stronger one than what HC or the Ivies were playing. Like I said, they weren't a good I-A but before dropping they were always clearly on the I-A side of the I-A/I-AA split. They were also 12-3 vs HC from the post-War years until dropping in 1980. So again, a higher level than HC.

Maybe slightly, but instead of the Ivies they were playing the Delawares, West Chesters etc of the world. HC also won 2 of those 3 games in the 1970s. Point being, they weren't playing at a much different level than HC then.

[DFW HOYA]

It was an odd schedule but still a stronger one than what HC or the Ivies were playing. Like I said, they weren't a good I-A but before dropping they were always clearly on the I-A side of the I-A/I-AA split. They were also 12-3 vs HC from the post-War years until dropping in 1980. So again, a higher level than HC.

Can't knock those HC schedules of the 1970's. While the Crusaders were playing Syracuse and Rutgers, Georgetown was playing St. Louis and Manhattan.

[The Boogie Down]

Maybe slightly, but instead of the Ivies they were playing the Delawares, West Chesters etc of the world. HC also won 2 of those 3 games in the 1970s. Point being, they weren't playing at a much different level than HC then.
Don't forget Maryland + a scattered collection of other ACC and even SEC opponents too. They were also 6-2 against HC from 1970-1980. Still, I never said Villanova was playing at a much different level than HC. But even before the official 1978 and 1982 splits there was always a line between legitimate and somewhat questionable D-I teams. IMO, Villanova was always on the legitimate side of that line even if they were never all that good.

Can't say the same for HC or the Ivies who, as you've already stated, were I-A in name only by the mid/late '60s. Others can't even say that as by the late '50s W&M was really playing more on the I-AA level. Early '50s for Colgate. As for Richmond, not sure when they were ever beating, or even taking on, legit I-A teams?



Can't knock those HC schedules of the 1970's. While the Crusaders were playing Syracuse and Rutgers, Georgetown was playing St. Louis and Manhattan.

Fordham knows those type of schedules well! The Rams & Hoyas both built surprising momentum on the club circuit. Unfortunately they both took way too long to get back in the D-I game. Even if it was, like HC & the Ivies, already just the I-AA level.

[Go Green]

The Tampa schedules were crazy in their brief sojourn in I-A. The 1971 Spartans schedule:

Louisiana Tech
at Chattanooga
Youngstown St.
Dayton
at Drake
Villanova
at Louisville
Ole Miss
East Carolina
at Vanderbilt
Florida A&M

Penn played a comparable schedule in the early to mid 1950s before finally giving up and playing Ivy-like schedules thereafter.

[ngineer]

So, what does all this mean for San Diego???xeyebrowxxlolx (hijacked, again)...

[Sader87]

So, what does all this mean for San Diego???xeyebrowxxlolx (hijacked, again)...

Don't the fans of the Toreros realize that comparing Villanova's and Holy Cross' 1970s schedules has everything to do with whether or not SD would win the PL in 2019? :)

[RichH2]

So, what does all this mean for San Diego???xeyebrowxxlolx (hijacked, again)...

Interesting thread. The self immolation of the PL. Not that long ago we wondered how the top of the PL would do in the CAA. Perhaps we will again someday.

[97Torero]

Conversation got a bit side tracked, but was entertaining none the less.
San Diego is making East coast trips to Davidson, Stetson, Jacksonville and Dayton this year, maybe they should join the patriot.

[Sader87]

Stranger things have happened....Towson was in the PL for football for a few years. I'd rather go to San Diego than Greatahh Baltimore every other year. :)

[ngineer]

Stranger things have happened....Towson was in the PL for football for a few years. I'd rather go to San Diego than Greatahh Baltimore every other year. :)

Sign 'em up!

[Baron Sardonicus]

Conversation got a bit side tracked, but was entertaining none the less.
San Diego is making East coast trips to Davidson, Stetson, Jacksonville and Dayton this year, maybe they should join the patriot.

I'm joining this conversation late, but I like USD where it is. For one thing, PFL membership is a lot cheaper than offering Patriot League scholarships AND doing east coast travel. For another, why would the Toreros want to join another conference, when winning the PFL and its playoff bid is so easy?

[katss07]

I'm joining this conversation late, but I like USD where it is. For one thing, PFL membership is a lot cheaper than offering Patriot League scholarships AND doing east coast travel. For another, why would the Toreros want to join another conference, when winning the PFL and its playoff bid is so easy?
Because San Diego might want to join a tougher football conference that would get them more respect in polls and from the selection committee? See Colgate/KSU arguments. Being good in a bad conference won’t get you too far. At some point you have to raise the level of competition.

Also, USD travels to Florida, Iowa, Ohio, North Carolina already. Is Pennsylvania far fetched? Nah.

[Derby City Duke]

Nova played 3 PL teams. Seen them up close. Yes.

Holy Cross is a maybe since I haven’t seen HC up close. xpeacex

Ask New Hampshire...

[Go Green]

Ask New Hampshire...

I think most folks would give UNH a mulligan on that game.

[carney2]

"Would San Diego win the Patriot?"

A middle school JV team would have a shot at winning the Patriot.

[Sader87]

I think most folks would give UNH a mulligan on that game.

Why? Should we get a mulligan on the Yale game?

[Go Green]

Why? Should we get a mulligan on the Yale game?

HC was the first game UNH played after their long-time coach took a leave of absence after being diagnosed with cancer.

https://www.necn.com/news/new-england/UNH-Football-Coach-Sean-McDonnell-Battling-Cancer-560338941.html

https://www.concordmonitor.com/McDonnell-takes-leave-of-absence-28028946