St. Thomas invited to jump to Summit.......

[Hambone]

Sounds like St Thomas is invited to join the Summit League if the NCAA approves a jump from D3 to D1.

To relate this to football and posting in the football board, I have a friend that's well connected, and it sounds like the football plan is to join the Pioneer and be full fledged scholarship within a decade......interesting developments......

http://www.startribune.com/st-thomas-to-get-invite-to-join-division-i-summit-league/562174952/

[BEAR]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/05/23/dominant-division-iii-football-school-kicked-out-conference-being-too-good/


University representatives for an NCAA Division III athletics conference in Minnesota voted to oust the league’s most successful school — one of its charter members — over “athletic competitive parity.”
The University of St. Thomas, located in St. Paul, Minn., helped found the Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference in 1920 and has emerged in recent seasons as the 13-school league’s dominant force in multiple sports. The MIAC’s presidents’ council voted to “involuntarily remove” St. Thomas after the 2021 spring season, while noting the school has not violated any conference or NCAA rules and leaves in good standing.

[NEBison]

That's awesome and I hope it works out for them considering what happened.

[Professor Chaos]

Pretty big news as they'll be the first D1 school in Minnesota outside of UM-Twin Cities. I'm not sure if it's just a formality or not but they'll need some type of NCAA waiver to jump straight from D3 to D1 also. I think it's a great move for the Summit League since many schools recruit the Twin Cities heavily so having a conference game there will be nice even if it means they'll have more competition for recruits now.

Going full scholly FCS is going to be a big step up from them if that's where they choose to go since they'll need to add go scholarship in the women's sports to comply with Title IX. Wouldn't be surprised to see them stay in the Pioneer for longer than 10 years if not indefinitely.

[BEAR]

St. Thomas 2017 results:

47-13
22-25
63-0
20-17
57-25
21-0
84-0
58-13
97-0
47-8
29-13
10-24

St. Thomas 2018 results:

76-7
62-0
49-0
46-7
73-14
20-40
68-0
60-0
14-13
15-21

[BEAR]

Looks like they wil have to upgrade some things...quite the jump!


O'Shaughnessy Stadium (https://www.tommiesports.com/facilities/O-Shaughnessy_Stadium)

This 5,000-seat outdoor stadium, built in 1947, is the venue for St. Thomas football and track events. The all-weather, track has eight lanes. Palmer Field is a FieldTurf synthetic surface named to honor the gift of former Tommie football player Bill Palmer and his family.
Adjacent to the stadium is the North Athletic Field featuring Koch Diamond, with a 250-seat collegiate baseball diamond and a throwing venue for track & field.


https://www.tommiesports.com/facilities/O-Shaughnessy_Stadium.png?max_height=600&max_width=1024

[ST_Lawson]

I like this a lot better than an Augustana (SD) move-up.
They've been incredibly successful in many sports, have decent-enough enrollment, aren't too hard to get to.
They also have baseball, which was obviously an issue, and their football team could probably already kick Valpo's butt up and down the field, so they should be fine in the Pioneer League.


Looks like they wil have to upgrade some things...quite the jump!


O'Shaughnessy Stadium (https://www.tommiesports.com/facilities/O-Shaughnessy_Stadium)

This 5,000-seat outdoor stadium, built in 1947, is the venue for St. Thomas football and track events. The all-weather, track has eight lanes. Palmer Field is a FieldTurf synthetic surface named to honor the gift of former Tommie football player Bill Palmer and his family.
Adjacent to the stadium is the North Athletic Field featuring Koch Diamond, with a 250-seat collegiate baseball diamond and a throwing venue for track & field.


Why would they even need to upgrade their stadium if they're going to the Pioneer League? I mean, they could add a bit of seating if they wanted to (if there's a place for it), but it's already as big as Marist and Valpo's stadiums and only slightly smaller than Jacksonville, Davidson, San Diego, or Stetson.

[Bisonator]

This would be way better then Auggie. xnodx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If this D-III to D-I leapfrogging becomes a thing, this opens up the door for the Patriot League to possibly consider some expansion candidates. Johns Hopkins, Ithaca College, RPI, Gettysburg. Of those four, Hopkins would be the most D-I ready.

[MSUBobcat]

Looks like they wil have to upgrade some things...quite the jump!


O'Shaughnessy Stadium (https://www.tommiesports.com/facilities/O-Shaughnessy_Stadium)

This 5,000-seat outdoor stadium, built in 1947, is the venue for St. Thomas football and track events. The all-weather, track has eight lanes. Palmer Field is a FieldTurf synthetic surface named to honor the gift of former Tommie football player Bill Palmer and his family.
Adjacent to the stadium is the North Athletic Field featuring Koch Diamond, with a 250-seat collegiate baseball diamond and a throwing venue for track & field.


https://www.tommiesports.com/facilities/O-Shaughnessy_Stadium.png?max_height=600&max_width=1024

I also wonder why you think they'd need to upgrade the stadium. I looked at the NCAA's "attendance numbers" for 2018. I counted 42 teams that didn't average 5,000, exactly 1/3 of all FCS teams. If they were to sellout every game, they would have better attendance than every team in the PFL and the NEC. In the Big South, only Kennesaw and Campbell would out-attend them and Campbell is only slightly (5,058). In the Patriot, only Holy Cross and Lafayette would have better attendance.

[JacksFan40]

I like this a lot better than an Augustana (SD) move-up.
They've been incredibly successful in many sports, have decent-enough enrollment, aren't too hard to get to.
They also have baseball, which was obviously an issue, and their football team could probably already kick Valpo's butt up and down the field, so they should be fine in the Pioneer League.



Why would they even need to upgrade their stadium if they're going to the Pioneer League? I mean, they could add a bit of seating if they wanted to (if there's a place for it), but it's already as big as Marist and Valpo's stadiums and only slightly smaller than Jacksonville, Davidson, San Diego, or Stetson.
They could probably kick the crap out of most PFL teams besides San Diego and maybe Dayton.

[ST_Lawson]

They could probably kick the crap out of most PFL teams besides San Diego and maybe Dayton.

Probably...I was just being conservative in my estimate. I've never seen UST play, and I know that Valpo lost to two DII teams this year. Neither have scholarships, so it's not like Valpo has some advantage there.
Hell, maybe UST could beat WIU if we played them today...idk.

[wapiti]

Looks like they wil have to upgrade some things...quite the jump!


O'Shaughnessy Stadium (https://www.tommiesports.com/facilities/O-Shaughnessy_Stadium)

This 5,000-seat outdoor stadium, built in 1947, is the venue for St. Thomas football and track events. The all-weather, track has eight lanes. Palmer Field is a FieldTurf synthetic surface named to honor the gift of former Tommie football player Bill Palmer and his family.
Adjacent to the stadium is the North Athletic Field featuring Koch Diamond, with a 250-seat collegiate baseball diamond and a throwing venue for track & field.


https://www.tommiesports.com/facilities/O-Shaughnessy_Stadium.png?max_height=600&max_width=1024

If they could find a new home for the track there is room to expand the seating capacity.
Depending on design, they could probably triple it. Is there enough parking for increased capacity and tailgating???

[POD Knows]

If they could find a new home for the track there is room to expand the seating capacity.
Depending on design, they could probably triple it. Is there enough parking for increased capacity and tailgating???I have seen this place with bleachers in the end zones, I don't know if they just do that for the St John game or what.

[dbackjon]

What would happen to the sports (ice hockey, football) that aren’t sponsored by the Summit League?


The Summit League does not currently sponsor ice hockey or football. As a result, St. Thomas would actively pursue affiliate membership opportunities for these programs in other Division I conferences.


https://news.stthomas.edu/oct-4-2019-announcement/

[dbackjon]

If this D-III to D-I leapfrogging becomes a thing, this opens up the door for the Patriot League to possibly consider some expansion candidates. Johns Hopkins, Ithaca College, RPI, Gettysburg. Of those four, Hopkins would be the most D-I ready.


Or the NCAA could say this is an unique situation since St. Thomas was kicked out of their DIII league for being too good.

[Hammersmith]

If they could find a new home for the track there is room to expand the seating capacity.
Depending on design, they could probably triple it. Is there enough parking for increased capacity and tailgating???

The campus is very landlocked deep in a single-family residential area. It's basically a 12 square block rectangle(3x4) with a corner that touches a 9 square block square(3x3). Both sections are almost completely developed. There's a parking facility near the point the two areas touch, but I have no idea how much excess capacity it has(if any). And it appears to be an upper-middle class neighborhood at first glance, so it would probably be prohibitively expensive to buy out a residential block and tear it all down.

[Bisonator]

Or the NCAA could say this is an unique situation since St. Thomas was kicked out of their DIII league for being too good.
Plus there are not a lot of D3 schools that can afford to make that leap.

[BisonFan02]

St. Thomas has the motivation to make this work....adds a Metro school to the Summit....and if they want to make a push, they sure as hell have the football pedigree. This could be interesting.

[BEAR]

I was jus thinking when UCA made the jump from division II to FCS we were told to expand many of our things. Our stadium only holds 9000 and we tend to do good in attendance but 5000 for an FCS seems kinda small ...especially since you are going so quickly from division III to division I. I don't keep up with attendance in that conference so if 5000 is good then I guess they don't need to expand.

[BisonTru]

I'm all for them coming to the Summit. Another close opponent and going to the twin cities for a game isn't hard for Bison fans. (Wife: We can go to the MOA... *dumps out wallet*xlolx) The pioneer makes sense as well as they are already non-scholly. It'll be interesting how well they do as they got kicked out for being so good.

As far as coming up to full scholly and participating with the rest of the FCS and I'm assuming they'd hope for a MVFC invite. That would certainly put more competition on the Dakota schools for recruits and St. Thomas could win over a lot of MN kids just on location. I'd still be for it, but just a reality of them coming aboard.

[DFW HOYA]

If this D-III to D-I leapfrogging becomes a thing, this opens up the door for the Patriot League to possibly consider some expansion candidates. Johns Hopkins, Ithaca College, RPI, Gettysburg. Of those four, Hopkins would be the most D-I ready.

Patriot League? Expansion?

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/038/287/Hahaguy_blank_preview.jpg

[clenz]

They seem like a PFL program, at least for a few years.

Going D3 to MVFC would seem like a good way to pretty quickly nerf all the good football vibes in that program after a couple years of getting slapped around.

OOC games against regional FCS schools - conference games against "peer institutions" like Drake, Valpo, San Diego. Not that they move the needle a ton in terms of interest on their own though.

[NY Crusader 2010]

If this D-III to D-I leapfrogging becomes a thing, this opens up the door for the Patriot League to possibly consider some expansion candidates. Johns Hopkins, Ithaca College, RPI, Gettysburg. Of those four, Hopkins would be the most D-I ready.

Hard pass on that entire list other than Johns Hopkins.

[Bisonator]

I don't think they will be scholarship FCS anytime soon. Pioneer would be a perfect fit for them, they'd be more then competitive right away in that league. I'm sure their hockey can get into the WCHA or whatever they are calling themselves now days.

[clenz]

I don't think they will be scholarship FCS anytime soon. Pioneer would be a perfect fit for them, they'd be more then competitive right away in that league. I'm sure their hockey can get into the WCHA or whatever they are calling themselves now days.
This was talked about in the MVFC thread

Hockey is going to be a gigantic budget boat anchor on that move and scholarship football up front with D1 hockey is going to be real tough.

We saw what hockey and scholarship football did to UND with a move from D2

[MSUBobcat]

What would happen to the sports (ice hockey, football) that aren’t sponsored by the Summit League?


The Summit League does not currently sponsor ice hockey or football. As a result, St. Thomas would actively pursue affiliate membership opportunities for these programs in other Division I conferences.


https://news.stthomas.edu/oct-4-2019-announcement/

They'd have to find a home for football (PFL has been mentioned as a good starting point), but college hockey conferences don't align with any other sports conferences with the exception of the newly formed Big 10, which was required by the by-laws when Penn State got it's big infusion from Terry Pegula. St. Thomas would actually fit in nicely with the WCHA if they came in as a package deal with Arizona State, who currently plays as an independent. It would round out the conference to 12 teams. The Minnesota and Michigan schools, along with Bowling Green, are initiating steps to form their own conference (effectively leaving the conference outliers Alaska-Anchorage, Alaska-Fairbanks and Alabama-Huntsville to fend for themselves). They could easily join that new conference and create a much more manageable footprint.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Hard pass on that entire list other than Johns Hopkins.

Hopkins is truly the interesting one because they are already D-I in Lacrosse and spend quite a bit of coin on that. And the Patriot League loves, loves Lacrosse. What has seemed to be the stumbling block is the back-to-back transition periods (effectively a "death penalty for moving up", if you're D-III). If that can be waved away by the NCAA, now they sort-of come back into play. IMO.

[Bisonator]

This was talked about in the MVFC thread

Hockey is going to be a gigantic budget boat anchor on that move and scholarship football up front with D1 hockey is going to be real tough.

We saw what hockey and scholarship football did to UND with a move from D2
Unlike UND the Tommies can afford it. Plus they will not be having FB scholarships so that will help.

[Laker]

If they keep hockey, the WCHA is the only conference that makes sense for both men and women. If they get rid of the Alaska schools, and the women are short one team after UND dropped the sport, they would fit right in.

Pioneer makes the most sense for both them and Augie. If they had a big game they could play it in Allianz Stadium, not far away.

And both UST and AU have baseball.

[clenz]

Unlike UND the Tommies can afford it. Plus they will not be having FB scholarships so that will help.
Which is what I was saying.

scholarship football and d1 hockey is a mountain to climb that, even with their money, I don't see them being able to do.

[MSUBobcat]

Timing for them actually works out pretty well as far as hockey goes. They want to join the Summit in 2021. WCHA bylaws require a 25 month notice to leave, which they filed in June, meaning their newly formed league would start up for.... the 2021-22 season. 3 Minnesota schools, 3 yooper schools, a central MI school and then Bowling Green becomes the farthest outlier.

[clenz]

If they keep hockey, the WCHA is the only conference that makes sense for both men and women. If they get rid of the Alaska schools, and the women are short one team after UND dropped the sport, they would fit right in.

Pioneer makes the most sense for both them and Augie. If they had a big game they could play it in Allianz Stadium, not far away.

And both UST and AU have baseball.
I have extreme doubts Minnesota United has any interest in letting football games being played in that stadium.

Soccer pitch turf is VAAASTLY different in how it's maintained. A football game would ****ing wreck that turf. I'd imagine zero chance Minnesota United - a club with a hell of a following and in the playoffs in year 3 and played in a cup final this year - let's that happen to their field.

[Mocs123]

Wait a minute.......you can kick teams out for being too good? I propose we send NDSU to FBS and Alabama to the NFL!

[Laker]

I have extreme doubts Minnesota United has any interest in letting football games being played in that stadium.

Soccer pitch turf is VAAASTLY different in how it's maintained. A football game would ****ing wreck that turf. I'd imagine zero chance Minnesota United - a club with a hell of a following and in the playoffs in year 3 and played in a cup final this year - let's that happen to their field.

Hence my qualifying statement, "big game".

https://www.tommiesports.com/sports/fball/2018-19/videos/Tommie-Johnnie_Football_2019_to_be_held_at_Allianz_Field

[Yote 53]

Would not shock me if they keep UST football as non-scholarship and continued to play their annual game with D3 St. John's. Best of all worlds. D1 basketball and hockey. D1 FCS football but get to keep the Tommie v Johnnie game.

[Laker]

Would not shock me if they keep UST football as non-scholarship and continued to play their annual game with D3 St. John's. Best of all worlds. D1 basketball and hockey. D1 FCS football but get to keep the Tommie v Johnnie game.

This might be the biggest rivalry in D3. I'm sure that other areas have their candidates but this is just old fashioned hate that outdraws many FCS teams.

[clenz]

Would not shock me if they keep UST football as non-scholarship and continued to play their annual game with D3 St. John's. Best of all worlds. D1 basketball and hockey. D1 FCS football but get to keep the Tommie v Johnnie game.
https://twitter.com/The_BrakeDown/status/1180159356542869505 (https://twitter.com/The_BrakeDown/status/1180159356542869505?s=20)

[clenz]

Wait a minute.......you can kick teams out for being too good? I propose we send NDSU to FBS and Alabama to the NFL!
There's a rumor floating around that they weren't as against getting kicked out as they want to make people believe. To the point they actively, behind closed doors, pushed for it to happen to get their "hardship" to see if they can push it through.

[clenz]

Hence my qualifying statement, "big game".

https://www.tommiesports.com/sports/fball/2018-19/videos/Tommie-Johnnie_Football_2019_to_be_held_at_Allianz_Field
The 19th is playoffs for MLS. Coming off of the way 2017 and 2018 went there was almost no belief that Minnesota would be a playoff team in 2019. Let alone finishing second in the conference and hosting a first round playoff match and being one of the 3 or 4 best teams in all MLS this year.

That means Minnesota won't be hosting a game on the 19th and will be locked into the 20th (first round matches are the 19th/20)

Thus

They are locked into hosting their first ever playoff game - the biggest game in their history - less than 24 hours after a football game wrecked the pitch.

They just re-sodded the stadium a week ago as well as the sod had been having issues already. So it's going to be fresh sod, that isn't deeply rooted, for a football game as well.

I can promise you the front office, coaches and players aren't real pleased right now.

I'd guess this is one of the last games played there

[The Yo Show]

This is big news

- - - Updated - - -

Subject to NCAA approval of course!

[MSUBobcat]

There's a rumor floating around that they weren't as against getting kicked out as they want to make people believe. To the point they actively, behind closed doors, pushed for it to happen to get their "hardship" to see if they can push it through.

I'd actually be kind of shocked if they WEREN'T privately asking conference members to "kick them out" if their aspirations were to jump straight to D-I, as they appear to be.

[dbackjon]

So does this affect Augie in anyway? Does a duo of Augie/St. Thomas to Summit/Pioneer get more traction?

[clenz]

So does this affect Augie in anyway? Does a duo of Augie/St. Thomas to Summit/Pioneer get more traction?
I'd guess it puts in the nail in the augie coffin....for now

The Summit didn't want them anyway - if they did they would have been added already. They wouldn't have waiting for St Thomas to get kicked out of their D3 conference

The only people that seemed to actually want Augie in the Summit were Augie and Sioux Falls media

[dbackjon]

I'd guess it puts in the nail in the augie coffin....for now

The Summit didn't want them anyway - if they did they would have been added already. They wouldn't have waiting for St Thomas to get kicked out of their D3 conference

The only people that seemed to actually want Augie in the Summit were Augie and Sioux Falls media

It does seem that way. UST gives the Summit 10 members.

I guess Augie could go to the WAC...

[ST_Lawson]

Would not shock me if they keep UST football as non-scholarship and continued to play their annual game with D3 St. John's. Best of all worlds. D1 basketball and hockey. D1 FCS football but get to keep the Tommie v Johnnie game.

Yup...just makes sense. Play in the Pioneer League, get your 8 conference games against other non-scholarship DI schools, play an annual rivalry game against St. John's, play at one of the Dakota schools if they want a paycheck (although it sounds like they may not need one), and have an extra game left for a home game against whoever they want to bring in.

Pioneer League teams play lower division teams fairly often (Valpo lost to two of them this year alone xlolx) and the Pioneer isn't likely to be getting an at-large spot in the playoffs any time soon, so it's not like a lower SOS is going to hurt them.

[MSUBobcat]

I don't really follow D-III football. How long before non-scholly Pioneer League kicks them out also???

[Drblankstare]

I think I’ll chip in and agree with everyone else. This is a good move for the Tommies, good for The Summit. They should fit well in the Pioneer. Bad news for Augie, though I always wondered how realistic that was.

For the people on Twitter who are mentioning what a blow this will be to NDSU and SDSU football and basketball, please seek the help you need.

[Yote 53]

https://twitter.com/The_BrakeDown/status/1180159356542869505 (https://twitter.com/The_BrakeDown/status/1180159356542869505?s=20)

Yeah, the Pioneer would be non-scholarship and UST and SJU would compete at the same non-scholarship levels. Years ao I remember Drake would schedule games with the Iowa D3 schools, Simpson in Indianola in particular.

[Laker]

Ramona Shelburne was just talking about St. Thomas on Around the Horn.

[Yote 53]

I'd guess it puts in the nail in the augie coffin....for now

The Summit didn't want them anyway - if they did they would have been added already. They wouldn't have waiting for St Thomas to get kicked out of their D3 conference

The only people that seemed to actually want Augie in the Summit were Augie and Sioux Falls media

A couple of quotes by the USD and SDSU AD's in the Argus paper were pretty telling to me. Both of them said this has nothing to do with Augie and they are always discussing new membership. Yet, both added that the league has heard nothing from Augie. The USD AD went so far as to say the only thing he has heard about Augie going to the Summit has been from the Sioux Falls media, not from Augustana themselves. Thought it strange, or telling, they both commented like that.

Personally, I just don't think the Summit members are very warm on Augustana, whereas, there has been widespread enthusiasm over the addition of St. Thomas. Not good if you are an Augie Viking.

[TheKingpin28]

Having UST in the Summit is beyond highly preferred and will greatly help stabilize the Summit with baseball being added (considering WIU can't financially like the shift westward) and creating a "solid" 6 teams (now they just need UMKC to add it as well as the solid was sarcastic). The thing that I know will benefit the Summit the best is they will have 11 teams for basketball which would allow for a set 20 game schedule (I believe 18 is ideal but I am not a basketball guy but iirc, that's a good number to have).

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

NDSU versus STU would draw a nice crowd for football.

STU has over 100K alumni, if they wanted to go for scholly football they could raise the $$ and do it IMO.

[Gil Dobie]

NDSU versus STU would draw a nice crowd for football.

STU has over 100K alumni, if they wanted to go for scholly football they could raise the $$ and do it IMO.

Exactly, the Missouri Valley was mentioned on the Twin Cities news tonight. Very rich school with rich alumni.

[BisonFan02]

Exactly, the Missouri Valley was mentioned on the Twin Cities news tonight. Very rich school with rich alumni.

This.......its gonna get interesting if they pushed.

[BisonBacker]

I have zero interest in seeing St.Thomas in any sport. Why people are so excited for this is beyond me. Hey maybe we can get Bemidji to join too xbangxxbangxxbangx

[that guy]

Summit will probably invite auggie too let them get football in the Patriot for a few years then try and have summit football conference.

[BisonFan02]

I have zero interest in seeing St.Thomas in any sport. Why people are so excited for this is beyond me. Hey maybe we can get Bemidji to join too xbangxxbangxxbangx

D3 in name only....school with enrollment that hovers around 10k in the Twin Cities with an endowment of half a billion. I wouldnt underestimate these guys....haha. Think they dont have something to prove?

[Gil Dobie]

I have zero interest in seeing St.Thomas in any sport. Why people are so excited for this is beyond me. Hey maybe we can get Bemidji to join too xbangxxbangxxbangx

I like the Bison playing close to home for me.

[Laker]

Oddly enough, St Thomas is located on Summit Avenue already.

University of St. Thomas, Minnesota
2115 Summit Avenue
St. Paul, Minnesota 55105 USA
651-962-5000 (tel:+16519625000)

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

D3 in name only....school with enrollment that hovers around 10k in the Twin Cities with an endowment of half a billion. I wouldnt underestimate these guys....haha. Think they dont have something to prove?

This here.

Their BB area is not good and needs to be upgraded but if they make the financial commitment, they will be a good member. Plus having a Cities market team is great.

[BisonFan02]

Oddly enough, St Thomas is located on Summit Avenue already.

University of St. Thomas, Minnesota
2115 Summit Avenue
St. Paul, Minnesota 55105 USA
651-962-5000 (tel:+16519625000)

Would love to live on Summit Ave. :)

[ST_Lawson]

I have zero interest in seeing St.Thomas in any sport. Why people are so excited for this is beyond me. Hey maybe we can get Bemidji to join too xbangxxbangxxbangx

For me it's less that I really want them (honestly I'd never even heard of them until the whole "Summit maybe adding Augie" thing started up, then they were getting mentioned too), and more that I knew that the Summit was going to need to add a team, especially after losing Fort Wayne. Of the possible/available options, they seem to be one of the better ones. If they're willing to really put the money behind it (which it sounds like they have a decent amount of), then they should be fine.

Hell, they're in a better position to be DI than Western is in many respects (not that that's really saying much at this point).

[youwouldno]

Isn't St. Johns just as dominant in that conference as St. Thomas? If the 'kicked out' thing was legit, it seems like St. Johns would get the boot too . . .

St. Thomas' 2017-18 teams had Massey ranks around the Pioneer League average.

[mvfcfan]

Personally I think the SL should also invite Augustana. When you're bringing back UMKC and adding a D3 school does it really matter? It's not like the SL is or has a chance of being a 2 bid league.

[BisonFan02]

Personally I think the SL should also invite Augustana. When you're bringing back UMKC and adding a D3 school does it really matter? It's not like the SL is or has a chance of being a 2 bid league.

Kinda like the MVC now? :D

[mvfcfan]

The MVC will end up getting at-large bids again. We also don't add non-D1 schools and low majors.

[BisonFan02]

The MVC will end up getting at-large bids again. We also don't add non-D1 schools and low majors.

Don't blink or you'll keep losing teams like Wichita and Creighton. :D

[RRVholsteins]

The MVC will end up getting at-large bids again. We also don't add non-D1 schools and low majors.

A non D1 school that has twice the enrollment and endowment of your current member private schools except Loyola. Valpo, Bradley, Drake, and Evansville are all half the size of UST.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Professor Chaos]

A non D1 school that has twice the enrollment and endowment of your current member private schools except Loyola. Valpo, Bradley, Drake, and Evansville are all half the size of UST.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The ironic thing is if a school like Loyola would leave the MVC in 5-8 years or so when St Thomas has established themselves in D1 I'd bet the MVC would look pretty hard at St Thomas as a potential replacement.

[BisonFan02]

The ironic thing is if a school like Loyola would leave the MVC in 5-8 years or so when St Thomas has established themselves in D1 I'd bet the MVC would look pretty hard at St Thomas as a potential replacement.

Gotta keep that private/public parity. xlolx How long of a bus ride is that though?

[Laker]

Star-Tribune's Pat Reusse talks about UST.

http://www.startribune.com/move-to-division-i-will-cost-st-thomas-stability/562294522/

[NY Crusader 2010]

Why would Loyola want to leave the Valley? Sorry if this is off topic since they are not an FCS football school.

[Herder]

The ironic thing is if a school like Loyola would leave the MVC in 5-8 years or so when St Thomas has established themselves in D1 I'd bet the MVC would look pretty hard at St Thomas as a potential replacement.

What’s even more ironic is when Loyola leaves the MVC in 5-8 years, they’ll join UST in the Summit because it will be a better league than the MVC by then.

[Professor Chaos]

Why would Loyola want to leave the Valley? Sorry if this is off topic since they are not an FCS football school.
Why would anyone leave? Because a (at least perceived) better opportunity comes calling.

But I'll rephrase. If any private school in the MVC bolts in 5-8 years they could very well end up looking hard at St Thomas as a replacement. I just picked Loyola since they're the chic pick for a conference upgrade with their recent Final Four run.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Why would anyone leave? Because a (at least perceived) better opportunity comes calling.

But I'll rephrase. If any private school in the MVC bolts in 5-8 years they could very well end up looking hard at St Thomas as a replacement. I just picked Loyola since they're the chic pick for a conference upgrade with their recent Final Four run.

A-10 would be the only place Loyola could go if they wanted to add another Midwest school with St. Louis the current geographic outlier (they should go to the Valley IMO, but they won't).

What is the push back on NDSU and SDSU getting into the league? Just interested as an outsider who thinks the two major Dakota schools would be obvious choices, and rock solid members, of that conference.

[ST_Lawson]

A-10 would be the only place Loyola could go if they wanted to add another Midwest school with St. Louis the current geographic outlier (they should go to the Valley IMO, but they won't).

What is the push back on NDSU and SDSU getting into the league? Just interested as an outsider who thinks the two major Dakota schools would be obvious choices, and rock solid members, of that conference.

NDSU at least needs to get A LOT better at basketball to get interest from the MVC. Plus I know that the private MVC schools are very intent on trying to keep a balance of private and public. They have 5 of each currently.
The MVC schools put a lot more money into their basketball programs than NDSU and SDSU do. SDSU has had success at hoops at least, but a deep run in the NCAA tournament would help.

[Professor Chaos]

A-10 would be the only place Loyola could go if they wanted to add another Midwest school with St. Louis the current geographic outlier (they should go to the Valley IMO, but they won't).

What is the push back on NDSU and SDSU getting into the league? Just interested as an outsider who thinks the two major Dakota schools would be obvious choices, and rock solid members, of that conference.
Geography and the public/private balance in the MVC as far as I understand. It would not be a bus trip for any current MVC especially to Fargo. But the political balance of 5 public and 5 private universities in the league is probably the biggest hurdle. If they added two publics with the XDSUs they'd have to add two privates to match and 14 teams is probably too big and also too ambitious due to lack of viable and willing candidates.

You might also hear that the XDSUs don't have the facilities or the competitive pedigree for the MVC but I don't buy that as much of an issue. Even if it is it pales in comparison to the first 2 issues I mentioned.

[BisonFan02]

Geography and the public/private balance in the MVC as far as I understand. It would not be a bus trip for any current MVC especially to Fargo. But the political balance of 5 public and 5 private universities in the league is probably the biggest hurdle. If they added two publics with the XDSUs they'd have to add two privates to match and 14 teams is probably too big and also too ambitious due to lack of viable and willing candidates.

You might also hear that the XDSUs don't have the facilities or the competitive pedigree for the MVC but I don't buy that as much of an issue. Even if it is it pales in comparison to the first 2 issues I mentioned.

It also just doesnt makes sense to do. Build the Summit....get a good core group of schools and roll.

[FargoBison]

NDSU at least needs to get A LOT better at basketball to get interest from the MVC. Plus I know that the private MVC schools are very intent on trying to keep a balance of private and public. They have 5 of each currently.
The MVC schools put a lot more money into their basketball programs than NDSU and SDSU do. SDSU has had success at hoops at least, but a deep run in the NCAA tournament would help.

What? I would say NDSU has had quite a bit of success in basketball. Something like four NCAA tournaments in 10 years and a legit NCAA tournament win over Oklahoma.

[frozennorth]

NDSU, SDSU, UNI, MSU, WSU, NIU, ISUr, ISUb, and UC would have been a good all sports conference

NDSU has had more success at mens basketball. Four appearances, two wins, and they had a legitimate sweet 16 opportunity against NMSU a few years ago and blew it.

[Herder]

A-10 would be the only place Loyola could go if they wanted to add another Midwest school with St. Louis the current geographic outlier (they should go to the Valley IMO, but they won't).

What is the push back on NDSU and SDSU getting into the league? Just interested as an outsider who thinks the two major Dakota schools would be obvious choices, and rock solid members, of that conference.

They apparently are not directional U enough for the MVC. But in 2019, what’s the lure of the MVC? There is none. The MVC privates make the MVC undesirable to me.

With growth in the Summit the next 5 years (and losing its baggage to the horizon), Summit will be on par with the MVC. 4 Major State U’s, Denver, UST, ORU . . . Game on.

[mvfcfan]

I honestly hate the MVC. I actually think it could be a 2 bid league again, but I hate the private schools in it in particular. Our commissioner does everything he can to keep the private schools happy. He even went as far as to say publicly that FCS football would not influence his decisions.

While travel is an issue. It's just an excuse. Omaha and Wichita were schools we typically flew to. Flying to Sioux Falls and Fargo is not an issue. Our non-revenue sports would bus to the Dakota's. Again not an issue. The baseball team buses to Dallas Baptist and down south to Florida every year.

Personally I believe they don't want the Dakota schools because they don't want to have to compete. If NDSU and SDSU were invited to the MVC one of them would win it within their first two seasons. I 100% believe that. Neither school would come into the MVC and accept being a middle of the road school.

I also think this is the same reason why they won't add Murray State. They don't want to have to compete with them. The 11 doesn't work is just another excuse. It's the only conference I know that won't add a great basketball school because they can't use a computer to generate an 11 team schedule. If I was the Racers I would want no part of the MVC.

As an Indiana State fan I either want the 5 publics to split and join the 4 Dakota schools or for us to leave the MVC for the OVC. Sadly the OVC might be better for us unless we get serious about improving our football facilities and investing more money into basketball.

[BisonBacker]

I like the Bison playing close to home for me.

Then we might as well schedule Concordia and Moorhead State.

[Professor Chaos]

Then we might as well schedule Concordia and Moorhead State.
Big difference when neither of those schools are D1 and have made no indication that they ever want to get there.

Beggars can't be choosers, it's not like schools are breaking down doors to get into the Summit League. This stabilizes the league with a member in several existing schools recruiting hot bed, adds a 6th baseball program allowing the league to retain its autobid in all sports, and it helps calm tensions at places like WIU about the league becoming the I29 conference as all schools east of there drop off like flies.

St Thomas has the resources to be very competitive at the D1 level in basketball and that's the most important thing. To downplay it because they're currently D3 is short sighted in my opinion. The Summit League has every reason to bet on St Thomas and I think it's a pretty safe bet.

[Gil Dobie]

Then we might as well schedule Concordia and Moorhead State.

Not close to home for me.

- - - Updated - - -

Shooter mentioned Big East as a possibility

[Laker]

Which possibility excites you more- St Thomas or Augustana?

No doubt that the Tommies have a lot more to offer even if the Vikings might be more ready right now.

[dewey]

Which possibility excites you more- St Thomas or Augustana?

No doubt that the Tommies have a lot more to offer even if the Vikings might be more ready right now.

St Thomas for me since I live in Minneapolis St Paul.

Dewey

[Gil Dobie]

St Thomas for me since I live in Minneapolis St Paul.

St Thomas has very good resources as others have said.

Dewey

There's talk of a new Basketball and Hockey arena on the site of the football field. Football to be played on Allianz field. - Charlie Walters article in the Pioneer Press today.

[dewey]

There's talk of a new Basketball and Hockey arena on the site of the football field. Football to be played on Allianz field. - Charlie Walters article in the Pioneer Press today.

That would be pretty awesome for St Thomas.

Dewey

[Laker]

There's talk of a new Basketball and Hockey arena on the site of the football field. Football to be played on Allianz field. - Charlie Walters article in the Pioneer Press today.

Shooter!

[BisonBacker]

Which possibility excites you more- St Thomas or Augustana?

No doubt that the Tommies have a lot more to offer even if the Vikings might be more ready right now.

Neither!

[BisonBacker]

Big difference when neither of those schools are D1 and have made no indication that they ever want to get there.

Beggars can't be choosers, it's not like schools are breaking down doors to get into the Summit League. This stabilizes the league with a member in several existing schools recruiting hot bed, adds a 6th baseball program allowing the league to retain its autobid in all sports, and it helps calm tensions at places like WIU about the league becoming the I29 conference as all schools east of there drop off like flies.

St Thomas has the resources to be very competitive at the D1 level in basketball and that's the most important thing. To downplay it because they're currently D3 is short sighted in my opinion. The Summit League has every reason to bet on St Thomas and I think it's a pretty safe bet.

Like it or not NDSU is never going to be a basketball school period. We will never be a destination for top recruits. It's all about Money period. Get to the tournament, take your first round beatdown and then get your check and head home and thump your chest you made the tournament. Big freaking whoop!

[BisonFan02]

Neither!

Here's a hot take....IF St. Thomas builds a nice arena (which will likely be nicer than our lipstick on a pig SHAC)....and recruiting into the Twin Cities instead of Fargo....they will give us more than we can handle in men's bball.

[BisonFan02]

Like it or not NDSU is never going to be a basketball school period. We will never be a destination for top recruits. It's all about Money period. Get to the tournament, take your first round beatdown and then get your check and head home and thump your chest you made the tournament. Big freaking whoop!

That's tragic....because if you have any aspirations for the football program, the whole AD needs to improve for a conference invite to ever happen. But.....this is typical for our fanbase.

[ST_Lawson]

What? I would say NDSU has had quite a bit of success in basketball. Something like four NCAA tournaments in 10 years and a legit NCAA tournament win over Oklahoma.

Sorry, I was mistaken. It was late...I think my brain was confusing men's basketball with women's. MVC probably doesn't care that much about women's basketball.

[BisonBacker]

Here's a hot take....IF St. Thomas builds a nice arena (which will likely be nicer than our lipstick on a pig SHAC)....and recruiting into the Twin Cities instead of Fargo....they will give us more than we can handle in men's bball.


Thank you for making my point about NDSU and bouncy ball. If NDSU had been serious about bouncy ball they'd of tore down that eyesore and started from scratch. As it was they as you said put lipstick on a pig and now all I hear is people bitch about no leg room for anyone over 5'10" and you still have the lovely ceiling supports that block the view of the court for anyone who would potentially sit there. Not that it's a problem given they never sell out the place anyway because NDSU is a football school not a Basketball school.

Edit:
I could care a less what they build on their campus. In addition to making my point take a look at the forum this is being discussed in FOOTBALL

[BisonBacker]

That's tragic....because if you have any aspirations for the football program, the whole AD needs to improve for a conference invite to ever happen. But.....this is typical for our fanbase.

I have dreams about winning the powerball but that ain't likely happening either!

[BisonFan02]

Thank you for making my point about NDSU and bouncy ball. If NDSU had been serious about bouncy ball they'd of tore down that eyesore and started from scratch. As it was they as you said put lipstick on a pig and now all I hear is people bitch about no leg room for anyone over 5'10" and you still have the lovely ceiling supports that block the view of the court for anyone who would potentially sit there. Not that it's a problem given they never sell out the place anyway because NDSU is a football school not a Basketball school.

Edit:
I could care a less what they build on their campus. In addition to making my point take a look at the forum this is being discussed in FOOTBALL

By the way, St. Thomas beat your stretch of a comparison Concordia 51-6 yesterday. xlolx

[BisonFan02]

On the topic though....those only looking at a D3 label are taking a very lazy/simplistic look at this. These guys are just as large of a school as those in our league with more resources and a metro recruiting market. At least try to dig deeper and have a semi educated viewpoint.

[BisonBacker]

That's tragic....because if you have any aspirations for the football program, the whole AD needs to improve for a conference invite to ever happen. But.....this is typical for our fanbase.

There are plenty of examples of football programs that compete at the highest level yet are from schools who's bouncy ball program has never done squat and is nearly non existent. I get that conferences want a school to have a good Bball program for the tournament money share but there are only so many Gonzaga's of the world and they have nothing for football. You pick your poison. For me i'm more interested in Football. Primarily football that would be at the top level. Somebody in this thread said they'd never even heard of St. Thomas. Fans for NDSU would only show up because it' NDSU and they know of them from the MIAC representation and Concordia being in town playing them. Lastly someone else said NDSU has had success by using the example of getting to the tournament. Thanks again for making my point. Success is considered making the tournament and getting your ass handed to you in the first round and you take your check and go home. Like I said big whoop!

[Gil Dobie]

Caruso has done a great job at St Thomas. He was responsible for that first batch of Illinois recruits coming to NDSU in the DI era. Steve Walker, Joe Mays, Drago. I think St Thomas has a good chance from that perspective.

[Gil Dobie]

St Thomas has been aligned with NDSU, UND, USD and SDSU in the past, as a Charter Member of the North Central Conference.

Wiki: The NCC was formed in 1922. Charter members of the NCC were South Dakota State College (now South Dakota State University (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Dakota_State_University)), College of St. Thomas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_St._Thomas) (now the University of St. Thomas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_St._Thomas_(Minnesota))), Des Moines University (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Des_Moines_University_(1865%E2%80%931929)), Creighton University (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creighton_University), North Dakota Agricultural College (now North Dakota State University (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Dakota_State_University)), the University of North Dakota (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_North_Dakota), Morningside College (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morningside_College), the University of South Dakota (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_South_Dakota), and Nebraska Wesleyan University (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebraska_Wesleyan_University).

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Which possibility excites you more- St Thomas or Augustana?

No doubt that the Tommies have a lot more to offer even if the Vikings might be more ready right now.


Pretty easy: St Thomas

[BisonFan02]

St Thomas has been aligned with NDSU, UND, USD and SDSU in the past, as a Charter Member of the North Central Conference.

Wiki: The NCC was formed in 1922. Charter members of the NCC were South Dakota State College (now South Dakota State University (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Dakota_State_University)), College of St. Thomas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_of_St._Thomas) (now the University of St. Thomas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_St._Thomas_(Minnesota))), Des Moines University (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Des_Moines_University_(1865%E2%80%931929)), Creighton University (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creighton_University), North Dakota Agricultural College (now North Dakota State University (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Dakota_State_University)), the University of North Dakota (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_North_Dakota), Morningside College (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morningside_College), the University of South Dakota (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_South_Dakota), and Nebraska Wesleyan University (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebraska_Wesleyan_University).

Well geez..... :D

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Probably will go Pioneer but you never know.

NDSU/St Thomas would be a great crowd at US Bank!!

xnodx

St Thomas is an infinitely better school to add compared to Augie. Probably a slimmer chance Augie gets in now.