Making a case AGAINST the Ivy

[aceinthehole]

AGS – Week 4 Poll
#24 – Princeton (226)
RV – Stony Brook (178)
RV – Dartmouth (48)
RV – Yale (36)
RV – Central Conn. (12)
NR – Monmouth

STATS – Week 4 Poll
RV – Princeton (268)
RV – Stony Brook (237)
RV – Dartmouth (68)
RV – Yale (48)
RV – Central Conn. (4)
NR – Monmouth

Three different Ivy League teams received votes last week. They are now a combined 6-0, but haven't played a single opponent outside of the Ivy/Patriot/Pioneer this season.

Princeton (2-0) W – Butler (Pioneer), Bucknell (Patriot)
Dartmouth (2-0) W – Jacksonville (Pioneer), Colgate (Patriot)
Yale (2-0) W – Holy Cross (Patriot), Cornell (Ivy)

Remaining non-conference games: Princeton vs Lafayette (Patriot); Dartmouth at Marist (Pioneer); Yale vs. Fordham (Patriot), at Richmond (CAA)

Stony Brook (4-1) W – Bryant (NEC), Wagner (NEC), Fordham (Patriot), URI (CAA); L - Utah St. (FBS)
Central Conn. (3-1) W – Fordham (Patriot), Merrimack (Indy), Valpo (Pioneer); L – E. Mich (FBS)
Monmouth (2-2) W -Lafayette (Patriot), Albany (CAA); L – W. Mich (FBS), Montana (Big Sky)

I expect Stony Brook to move ahead of Princeton this week, but will the 3 Ivy teams stay rated ahead of other regional programs playing 11-game schedules and FBS opponents?

CCSU and Monmouth have beaten comparable Patriot and Pioneer teams, yet Central is significantly behind Dartmouth and Yale and Monmouth isn't even getting votes.

Just wondering what "results" or "potential" is being weighted for 3 Ivy League teams to be considered Top-25 in all FCS right now?

[Professor Chaos]

I know we're only supposed to consider this year but I gave Princeton some extra credit (or "benefit of the doubt" if you will) since they haven't lost since 2017. The other Ivies need to do a decent amount more to prove they should be included in my top 25 ballot.

[ngineer]

I know we're only supposed to consider this year but I gave Princeton some extra credit (or "benefit of the doubt" if you will) since they haven't lost since 2017. The other Ivies need to do a decent amount more to prove they should be included in my top 25 ballot.

Agreed on Princeton. I saw them play last year and they were a powerhouse. knowing what they had returning, I, too, have given them some credence. Tis a real shame their Presidents will not let them in the playoffs.

[Bisonator]

I don't consider Ivies in my poll. They want to be their own enigma so be it.

[aceinthehole]

OK, sure Princeton has been dominant vs. their schedule for the past 2 seasons. Maybe they are that good, but let's remember they play 10-games a season and have only played 3 opponents outside of the Ivy/Patriot/Pioneer in the last 10 years. Just saying ... the polls should reflect that.

Yale has certainly played the most challenging schedule for an Ivy program, but have we forgotten they were just 5-5 last season?

I agree that these are 3 very good teams, I'm just wondering why they get so much respect in the polls while the NEC and Monmouth have built stronger schedules but are not equally respected.

I know a lot of AGS poster here agree and all but ignore the Ivy teams from considerations due to their schedules, but other seem to keep propping up these teams.

Just my two cents ...

[Ivytalk]

Ace, you seem to have a very large chip on your shoulder.

[caribbeanhen]

I know we're only supposed to consider this year but I gave Princeton some extra credit (or "benefit of the doubt" if you will) since they haven't lost since 2017. The other Ivies need to do a decent amount more to prove they should be included in my top 25 ballot.


Will never be able to prove it but Princeton last year was very good and I mean top 10 good easily, that is my opinion and many will not agree....

take a look at a Dartmouth game ... they were just a bit behind Princeton last year

Yale beat the FCS semi finalist last year handily....

I wish they would play better OOC skeds and participate in Playoffs just as much as anyone

[Go Green]

As I pointed out two weeks ago when you made the same pitch, the computers cut against your argument. By a wide margin.

http://sagarin.com/sports/cfsend.htm

[smilo]

Beating Fordham by 3 and even more beating Merrimack by 3 is the same as beating Colgate by 35. Got it.

I kicked Yale out and replaced them with my #26 Dartmouth this week since winning by double digits against teams ranked 40-55 is not nearly enough.

The entire history of football is not merely about winning but about winning by as many points as possible to earn your street cred. Plus recruiting rankings and, as stated above, computer metrics all help support this argument. I haven't done it to date, but I almost feel the need to bump Ivy League teams in my ballot to compensate for those who refuse to rank the best FCS teams. Princeton is clearly much better than the 24th best team in the country.

[Professor Chaos]

OK, sure Princeton has been dominant vs. their schedule for the past 2 seasons. Maybe they are that good, but let's remember they play 10-games a season and have only played 3 opponents outside of the Ivy/Patriot/Pioneer in the last 10 years. Just saying ... the polls should reflect that.
I'd say the polls do reflect that. Ivies seem to have a glass ceiling at about #10 in the polls because they're so insular. Princeton got the highest ranking ever for an Ivy League team in the AGS poll last year when they got to #10 on the Selection Sunday poll (Yale also got to #10 a couple times towards the end of 2007). They're also punished for their 3 bye weeks to start the year as Princeton fell all the way to #25 and Dartmouth fell completely out after being comfortably in the AGS top 25 last year.

Not that there's anything wrong with the ceiling for an Ivy League team's ranking or getting punished for not playing until week 4... that's all self-induced anyway but they do pay the price for it in the polls. They probably really don't care.

[aceinthehole]

Doesn't pass the smell test. The Ivy schedule is too small and insular to make fair comparisons with teams that play 11 or 12 game seasons and participate in the playoffs.

Last 4 FCS wins outside of the NEC/Ivy/Patriot/Pioneer:

Princeton
2018 - W, 51-9 vs. Monmouth
???
???
???

Dartmouth
2016 - W, 22-21 vs. New Hampshire
2016 - W, 20-17 vs. Towson
???
???

Yale
2018 - W, 35-14 vs. Maine
2018 - W, 35-28 vs. Mercer
2015 - W, 21-10 at Maine
2014 - W, 49-43 (OT) vs. Army

Duquesne
2018 - W, 31-10 at Towson (NCAA)
2014 - W, 30-21 vs. Monmouth
2013 - W, 33-23 at Monmouth
2013 - W, 35-24 vs. Albany

Saint Francis
2018 - W, 45-14 vs. Delaware State
2017 - W, 13-7 at Liberty
2015 - W, 58-9 at East Tennessee State
2013 - W, 28-10 vs. Monmouth

Central Connecticut
2014 - W, 38-14 vs. Rhode Island
2014 - W, 31-27 at Towson
2013 - W, 20-17 at Albany
2008 - W, 28-10 at Delaware State

Colgate
2018 - W, 23-20 at James Madison (NCAA)
2018 - W, 23-0 at William & Mary
2018 - W, 10-3 at New Hampshire
2017 - W, 20-14 at Cal Poly

Holy Cross
2019 - W, 13-10 vs. New Hampshire
2017 - W, 51-26 vs. New Hampshire
2016 - W, 51-24 at Morgan State
2015 - W, 37-0 vs. Albany

Lehigh
2013 - W, 34-27 vs. New Hampshire
2013 - W, 28-25 at Monmouth
2012 - W, 28-26 at Liberty
2012 - W, 27-17 vs. Monmouth

San Diego
2017 - W, 41-10 at Northern Arizona (NCAA)
2016 - W, 35-21 at Cal Poly (NCAA)
2007 - W, 49-13 vs. Northern Colorado
???

Anyone want to fill in the blanks for Princeton and Dartmouth, or Harvard. :)

[MSUBobcat]

Didn't read the comments because I don't believe a case needs to be made AGAINST the Ivies. You can argue FOR them, if that's your prerogative.

[Go Green]

Last 4 FCS wins outside of the NEC/Ivy/Patriot/Pioneer:



If your point is that the Ivy may be unjustifiably taking away poll spots from the NEC/Patriot/Pioneer teams, then why not show how the Ivy's top teams has done against those conferences as well?

[TheKingpin28]

Ivy (Yale, Harvard, Dartmouth, Princeton) vs NEC/Patriot/Pioneer last 4 years:

Dartmouth:
-18: Georgetown, Holy Cross, Sacred Heart = 3-0
-17: Stetson, Holy Cross, Sacred Heart = 3-0
-16: Holy Cross = 1-0
-15: Georgetown, Holy Cross, Central Conneticut = 3-0

Harvard:
-18: San Diego, Holy Cross = 2-0
-17: Georgetown, Lafayette = 2-0
-16: Georgetown, Holy Cross = 1-1
-15: Georgetown, Lafayette = 2-0

Princeton:
-18: Butler, Lehigh = 2-0
-17: San Diego, Georgetown, Lafayette = 3-0
-16: Lafayette, Lehigh, Georgetown = 2-1
-15: Lafayette, Lehigh, Colgate = 3-0

Yale:
-18: Holy Cross = 0-1
-17: Lehigh, Fordham, Holy Cross = 3-0
-16: Colgate, Lehigh, Fordham = 0-3
-15: Colgate, Lehigh = 2-0

Total record: 32-5

xcoffeex

[UAalum72]

Princeton beat Monmouth in 2018, Maine in 1980, Rutgers in 1975 1972 and 1970. They tied William & Mary in 1989 and Rutgers in 1974.
Dartmouth beat New Hampshire and Towson in 2016, Boston U in 1989 and 1977. Also tied UNH in 1990 and 1979.
Harvard beat Rhode Island in 2016 and 2015, Northeastern in 2004 and 2003

[Go Green]

They probably really don't care.

For those of us who want to take home a Lambert Cup, the polls do matter.

I agree with your greater point that without participating in the playoffs, the Ivy has a ceiling on how high we can go in the polls. Dartmouth could go 10-0 and win every game by multiple touchdowns and be lucky to crack the top 10 in the final poll... :(

[aceinthehole]

No, the real point is the Ivy League avoids playing anyone outside their comfort zone for fear of losing. That is the real reason why they chose not to participate in the playoffs.

Unlike NEC teams, the Ivy does not want (or feel the need) to schedule top teams from the CAA, MVFC, Big Sky, and FBS opponents. They don't want to go on the road and play at South Dakota State, JMU, YSU, or Montana.

Ivy League teams are consistently (and in my opinion, unfairly) rewarded in polls for playing just 10 games a year and avoiding games against top opponents from "power conferences" opponents.

[KPSUL]

Doesn't pass the smell test. The Ivy schedule is too small and insular to make fair comparisons with teams that play 11 or 12 game seasons and participate in the playoffs.



Anyone want to fill in the blanks for Princeton and Dartmouth, or Harvard. :)

The Ivy league is clearly better than the NEC, I've filled in the blanks!

Princeton 1870 Win over Rutgers 8-0

Harvard 1919 Rose Bowl victory over Oregon

Dartmouth 1947 win over Syracuse, 45-0.

I rest my case!!!

[Go Green]

Ivy League teams are consistently (and in my opinion, unfairly) rewarded in polls for playing just 10 games a year and avoiding games against top opponents from "power conferences" opponents.

At whose expense?

Certainly not the NEC/PL/PFL...

[Bisonoline]

No, the real point is the Ivy League avoids playing anyone outside their comfort zone for fear of losing. That is the real reason why they chose not to participate in the playoffs.

Unlike NEC teams, the Ivy does not want (or feel the need) to schedule top teams from the CAA, MVFC, Big Sky, and FBS opponents. They don't want to go on the road and play at South Dakota State, JMU, YSU, or Montana.



Ivy League teams are consistently (and in my opinion, unfairly) rewarded in polls for playing just 10 games a year and avoiding games against top opponents from "power conferences" opponents.

Ive always felt if the administrators want to be an entity un to themselves then so be it. They dont want to participate then they dont need to be acknowledged as they dont acknowledge anyone else.

It sucks for the players though..

[Ivytalk]

No, the real point is the Ivy League avoids playing anyone outside their comfort zone for fear of losing. That is the real reason why they chose not to participate in the playoffs.

Unlike NEC teams, the Ivy does not want (or feel the need) to schedule top teams from the CAA, MVFC, Big Sky, and FBS opponents. They don't want to go on the road and play at South Dakota State, JMU, YSU, or Montana.

Ivy League teams are consistently (and in my opinion, unfairly) rewarded in polls for playing just 10 games a year and avoiding games against top opponents from "power conferences" opponents.
The inferiority butthurt is strong in you. If Yale agreed to play CCSU every year, you’d be a happy little camper.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

There's a bit of sour grapes, bitterness when it comes to Ivy League football. There's an aura of entitlement and superiority that surrounds the Ivy League that people simply do not like. The league's stance on football gives the mere mortals like like many of us on here a chance to knock down the Ancient Eight as many pegs as possible. They're simply not going to get the benefit of the doubt from most people because those folks tend to believe Ivy Leaguers will get breaks in life that others simply don't enjoy.

I personally think the best of the IL right now are as good anyone in FCS not named NDSU. I watch a ton of football and the Ancient Eighters are loaded in terms of talent and coaching. The talent and depth these teams posses is scary. There's no question in my mind Princeton was one of the top 3-4 teams in FCS last year. I think the league has 3 legit Top 25 teams this season. Not sure if anyone's ceiling is quite as high as Princeton's in 2018. Resource wise these are FBS type programs operating at a FCS level.

[aceinthehole]

For those of us who want to take home a Lambert Cup, the polls do matter.

I agree with your greater point that without participating in the playoffs, the Ivy has a ceiling on how high we can go in the polls. Dartmouth could go 10-0 and win every game by multiple touchdowns and be lucky to crack the top 10 in the final poll... :(

Correct.

As an example, CCSU has played 19 Top-25 non-conference teams since 2001. Central is a disappointing 2-17 in those games, but has played just one of those opponents at home.

Has the entire Ivy League played 19 Nationally ranked non-conference opponents in that same time period? And how many of those games are on the road? I'm also sure if I did the research I would come up with dozens of ranked non-conference opponents for all the other NEC teams as well.

I'm trying to make the larger point that the Ivy League gets special treatment in the polls by playing fewer games, sitting out of the playoffs, and avoiding "power conference" FCS teams and FBS opponents.

Of course I think Princeton, Dartmouth, and Yale are very good, strong FCS teams. I just think they need to play a schedule that justifies a Top-25 votes, instead of the "benefit of the doubt" they are too often given because of their pedigree.

[Sader87]

I don't think the TPTB at the Ivies knew Ivy football would be as strong as it has become in the last 5-10 years or so and thus have been wary of scheduling many CAA, military academies and other strong (er) FCS programs.

My guess is that that thinking has changed a bit and you're starting to see some more bolder OOC scheduling amongst the Ancient VIII.

Something that should change is the "bowl counter" rules...the Ivies are giving more $$$ to players than many scholarship programs that are technically a bowl-counting opponent.

[aceinthehole]

Princeton beat Monmouth in 2018, Maine in 1980, Rutgers in 1975 1972 and 1970. They tied William & Mary in 1989 and Rutgers in 1974.
Dartmouth beat New Hampshire and Towson in 2016, Boston U in 1989 and 1977. Also tied UNH in 1990 and 1979.
Harvard beat Rhode Island in 2016 and 2015, Northeastern in 2004 and 2003

Thanks, I was having trouble finding those. Now, let's think about that for a second.

Princeton has 2 wins outside of the Ivy/PL/PFL since 1980?!?!?!?!? In nearly 40 years, the Tigers are hanging their hat on non-conference wins against Monmouth and Maine.

Also, after the 1980 win vs. Maine, Princeton went a combined 0-8 in their home/home deals against The Citadel, Delaware, Hampton, and William & Mary.

[Harrisonburger]

The Ivy league is clearly better than the NEC, I've filled in the blanks!

Princeton 1870 Win over Rutgers 8-0

Harvard 1919 Rose Bowl victory over Oregon

Dartmouth 1947 win over Syracuse, 45-0.

I rest my case!!!


Can't believe you didn't mention Columbia's win (not a typo) in the 1934 Rose Bowl. :D

[aceinthehole]

I don't think the TPTB at the Ivies knew Ivy football would be as strong as it has become in the last 5-10 years or so and thus have been wary of scheduling many CAA, military academies and other strong (er) FCS programs.

My guess is that that thinking has changed a bit and you're starting to see some more bolder OOC scheduling amongst the Ancient VIII.

Something that should change is the "bowl counter" rules...the Ivies are giving more $$$ to players than many scholarship programs that are technically a bowl-counting opponent.

Not really.

Yale certainly gets all due credit for scheduling (and winning) many "non-traditional" opponents since the 2010 season - Maine (Wx2), Mercer (W), Army (W), Cal Poly (W), Albany (L) and Richmond is on the slate this year.

Dartmouth played 2 CAA teams (UNH and Towson) in 2016 and won them both, but has otherwise kept a Patriot-heavy slate mixed with a few NEC and Pioneer teams.

Harvard and Princeton have flat out refused to schedule anyone outside of their "comfort zone." Could they be competitive vs. CAA, MVFC, or Big Sky opponents? Maybe, but they haven't had the stones to schedule those type of games for decades now. I'm not holding my breath that they are adopting a more aggressive scheduling philosophy anytime in the future.

[smilo]

Princeton would beat Rutgers a whole lot worse than 8-0 in 2019. Not a doubt in my mind.

[ElCid]

No, the real point is the Ivy League avoids playing anyone outside their comfort zone for fear of losing. That is the real reason why they chose not to participate in the playoffs.

Unlike NEC teams, the Ivy does not want (or feel the need) to schedule top teams from the CAA, MVFC, Big Sky, and FBS opponents. They don't want to go on the road and play at South Dakota State, JMU, YSU, or Montana.

Ivy League teams are consistently (and in my opinion, unfairly) rewarded in polls for playing just 10 games a year and avoiding games against top opponents from "power conferences" opponents.

I agree for the most part. They are probably trying to keep their scheduling within a zone of comparability in regard to program and/or academic standards. As a result, the Ivy is most definitely an annual circle jerk for sure, for the most part.

They only need one or two marquis or simply good OOC wins each year and then their dregs feed of that rating to raise them all. The prior season bias in the ratings helps as well. They simply have to maintain by bashing low ranking teams. They won't lose much ground since they play so few OOC. I am not sure how far out they are scheduling their OOC games in regard to seeking out good opponents...or middling ones, or bad ones.

And to shed more data on OOC scheduling, Yale did play a middling Mercer last year (Mercer was ranked #56/124 in Massey). Yale won. To go a little further back, Princeton did H&H with The Citadel in 08/09. We were Massey ranked a middling #60 in 08 and bit better #43 in 09. We won both. Princeton was pretty bad back then. They have, all scheduling issues aside, gotten much better.

[ElCid]

Princeton would beat Rutgers a whole lot worse than 8-0 in 2019. Not a doubt in my mind.

Rutgers is a complete joke. Even the ESPN announcers were making fun of them.

[Laker]

Rutgers is a complete joke. Even the ESPN announcers were making fun of them.

Chris Ash's tenure as Rutgers football coach is over after three-plus seasons that resulted in only three Big Ten victories.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Chris Ash's tenure as Rutgers football coach is over after three-plus seasons that resulted in only three Big Ten victories.

Before Schiano turned Rugters around in the mid 2000's the Scarlet Knights were horrendous. Temple and Rutgers were complete disasters in the Big East. A legit argument could be made that Rutgers was actually worse than Temple during the 90's and early 2000's. What saved Rutgers ass was the fact they were an all sport member and had their own stadium. They were also the State University of New Jersey which meant serious political pull. Temple had the superior hoops program but we were in the A10.

I wish Rutgers played Princeton this year to celebrate the 150th anniversary of their first game. The Tigers would clobber them....

[GoBlueHens83]

Not really.

Yale certainly gets all due credit for scheduling (and winning) many "non-traditional" opponents since the 2010 season - Maine (Wx2), Mercer (W), Army (W), Cal Poly (W), Albany (L) and Richmond is on the slate this year.

Dartmouth played 2 CAA teams (UNH and Towson) in 2016 and won them both, but has otherwise kept a Patriot-heavy slate mixed with a few NEC and Pioneer teams.

Harvard and Princeton have flat out refused to schedule anyone outside of their "comfort zone." Could they be competitive vs. CAA, MVFC, or Big Sky opponents? Maybe, but they haven't had the stones to schedule those type of games for decades now. I'm not holding my breath that they are adopting a more aggressive scheduling philosophy anytime in the future.

Delaware has had an Ivy team on our schedule the last 3 years straight ( Cornell & Penn), so apparently they aren't that scared to play CAA teams.

I'd welcome a home & home series against Princeton, would be good games and a short road trip for most UD fans.

[mvemjsunpx]

Chris Ash's tenure as Rutgers football coach is over after three-plus seasons that resulted in only three Big Ten victories.

FUN FACT: Chris Ash played for Rob Ash at Drake and was defensive coordinator there in the late-'90s, but he isn't actually related to Rob Ash. xrotatehx

[Son of Eli]

Yale has certainly played the most challenging schedule for an Ivy program, but have we forgotten they were just 5-5 last season? ...


That works against your argument. Yale beat Maine of the CAA handily last year who made it all the way to the semifinals in the FCS playoffs. Yet Yale was 3-4 in the Ivy League. That is strong evidence of the strength of the league.

[Son of Eli]

Harvard and Princeton have flat out refused to schedule anyone outside of their "comfort zone." Could they be competitive vs. CAA, MVFC, or Big Sky opponents? Maybe, but they haven't had the stones to schedule those type of games for decades now. I'm not holding my breath that they are adopting a more aggressive scheduling philosophy anytime in the future.


Princeton is playing Army next year

[KPSUL]

I think this whole argument became tiresome years ago, but it comes up several times a season anyway. If the Ivy league wants to play an insular, 10 game schedule that starts several weeks after the college football season commences, and play conference games after the playoffs begin, that is their choice. But like other choices, there are consequences - declining to participate in the playoffs makes it impossible to have truly reliable comparative data to rate any Ivy team above a ceiling in the final season poll. That might be 10, 15, 20, or even no ranking at all; an argument can, and has, been made for all these ranking ceilings. If a voter can't see significant justification to rank playoff non-participants above, let say 15 in the final season poll, it is pointless to rank an Ivy team higher than 15 during the regular season.

[MR. CHICKEN]

......PENN GAVE YOU-DEE.......ALL DEY COOD HANDLE......2 POINT CONVERSION FAIL....WAS DUH DIFF........IVIES CAN PLAY.......EAST COASTERS GET IT............REST UH FCS NOT SO MUCH.......AWK!

[Sader87]

^^^^ what Mr Chicken "said" :)

[Bisonoline]

There's a bit of sour grapes, bitterness when it comes to Ivy League football. There's an aura of entitlement and superiority that surrounds the Ivy League that people simply do not like. The league's stance on football gives the mere mortals like like many of us on here a chance to knock down the Ancient Eight as many pegs as possible. They're simply not going to get the benefit of the doubt from most people because those folks tend to believe Ivy Leaguers will get breaks in life that others simply don't enjoy.

I personally think the best of the IL right now are as good anyone in FCS not named NDSU. I watch a ton of football and the Ancient Eighters are loaded in terms of talent and coaching. The talent and depth these teams posses is scary. There's no question in my mind Princeton was one of the top 3-4 teams in FCS last year. I think the league has 3 legit Top 25 teams this season. Not sure if anyone's ceiling is quite as high as Princeton's in 2018. Resource wise these are FBS type programs operating at a FCS level.


I think the aura, entitlement and getting breaks in life thing is from years past. The angst now has more to do with the presidents lies, excuses and hypocrisy.

[RichH2]

No, the real point is the Ivy League avoids playing anyone outside their comfort zone for fear of losing. That is the real reason why they chose not to participate in the playoffs.

Unlike NEC teams, the Ivy does not want (or feel the need) to schedule top teams from the CAA, MVFC, Big Sky, and FBS opponents. They don't want to go on the road and play at South Dakota State, JMU, YSU, or Montana.

Ivy League teams are consistently (and in my opinion, unfairly) rewarded in polls for playing just 10 games a year and avoiding games against top opponents from "power conferences" opponents.
Nope. a reason perhaps but the primary reason is Harvard not wanting Ivy playoff games to deflect from the Yale-Harvard season ender.

[caribbeanhen]

I think this whole argument became tiresome years ago, but it comes up several times a season anyway. If the Ivy league wants to play an insular, 10 game schedule that starts several weeks after the college football season commences, and play conference games after the playoffs begin, that is their choice. But like other choices, there are consequences - declining to participate in the playoffs makes it impossible to have truly reliable comparative data to rate any Ivy team above a ceiling in the final season poll. That might be 10, 15, 20, or even no ranking at all; an argument can, and has, been made for all these ranking ceilings. If a voter can't see significant justification to rank playoff non-participants above, let say 15 in the final season poll, it is pointless to rank an Ivy team higher than 15 during the regular season.

I see it a different way, by the looks of some of those teams that made the playoffs the past few years is all the more reason to include Ivy schools higher than 15

Princeton and Dartmouth just look good, well coached and solid football teams with talent at skill positions, too bad we will not be able to put this discussion to the test anytime soon, a shame

Yale cruises to easy win over CAA Maine and eventual FCS semi finalist last year

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Anyone who has actually seen Princeton in the last two years realizes that they are in reality an FBS team masquerading as an FCS team. Any argument against them being in the Top 25 would be one purely on principle, i.e., that since the Ivy League refuses to play by the same rules as the rest of FCS, then they don't deserve votes. I feel like shining a big, bright light on Princeton the FBS team, and abide by the fact that, technically, they are an FCS team, so I include them.

[Professor Chaos]

Nope. a reason perhaps but the primary reason is Harvard not wanting Ivy playoff games to deflect from the Yale-Harvard season ender.
I've heard that before and it shows an incredible amount of arrogance if it is true. Basically what Harvard and Yale are saying is not only are we too good to lump ourselves in with the FCS playoffs but we're also too good to allow any other Ivy schools to lump themselves in with the FCS playoffs either.

Which is classic irony because if the FCS playoffs are so inconsequential they couldn't possible take anything away from the greatness that is "The Game" could they???

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I've heard that before and it shows an incredible amount of arrogance if it is true. Basically what Harvard and Yale are saying is not only are we too good to lump ourselves in with the FCS playoffs but we're also too good to allow any other Ivy schools to lump themselves in with the FCS playoffs either.

Which is classic irony because if the FCS playoffs are so inconsequential they couldn't possible take anything away from the greatness that is "The Game" could they???

Wait... arrogance and Harvard? How could that be? xlolx

[caribbeanhen]

Anyone who has actually seen Princeton in the last two years realizes that they are in reality an FBS team masquerading as an FCS team. Any argument against them being in the Top 25 would be one purely on principle, i.e., that since the Ivy League refuses to play by the same rules as the rest of FCS, then they don't deserve votes. I feel like shining a big, bright light on Princeton the FBS team, and abide by the fact that, technically, they are an FCS team, so I include them.

I kind mostly agree with this, maybe the FCS championship game should be called the Masquerade Bowl but I guess we will have to wait on Princeton to participate to call it that

[mvfcfan]

I don't consider Ivies in my poll. They want to be their own enigma so be it.

Plus one with this. I don't vote in the AGS poll, mainly because I only follow the MVC and OVC. The rest of the FCS, I usually only glance at scores, but don't know enough about to make decisions on them. When the playoff bracket is announced I have to look at the other team's schedules and see who they've played and how they've done. I used to follow all of the FCS and FBS somewhat closely, but I just don't have time to anymore. I just follow my favorite teams now (ISUb and EIU) and their conference members.

With that said, if I did vote, I would not vote for the Ivy, SWAC, or MEAC. The rankings should be for playoff eligible teams only. If I was on the selection committee I would also not consider the MEAC for at-large bids. If they want their bowl game they can have it, but they shouldn't be sending their leftovers to the playoffs. Either send your best or no one.

[Son of Eli]

It is my belief that the higher Ivy teams are ranked the more pressure there is on the Ivy presidents to allow participation in the FCS playoffs. A high ranking keeps the issue alive in the media and the student body. Princeton’s high ranking last year is why Ivy League Executive Director Robyn Harris had to address the issue of playoff participation at this year’s Media Day.

Change happens at a glacial pace in the Ivy League but it does happen. The recently initiated Ivy League basketball tournament is the most recent example. The key is to keep the heat on.

[Ivytalk]

Wait... arrogance and Harvard? How could that be? xlolx
Piss off, LFN.xrolleyesx

[Ivytalk]

I've heard that before and it shows an incredible amount of arrogance if it is true. Basically what Harvard and Yale are saying is not only are we too good to lump ourselves in with the FCS playoffs but we're also too good to allow any other Ivy schools to lump themselves in with the FCS playoffs either.

Which is classic irony because if the FCS playoffs are so inconsequential they couldn't possible take anything away from the greatness that is "The Game" could they???
KAOS (note the Get Smart analogy, if you’re old enough), you give Harvard and Yale way too much credit. It’s a matter of inertia, not hubris.

[NY Crusader 2010]

It is my belief that the higher Ivy teams are ranked the more pressure there is on the Ivy presidents to allow participation in the FCS playoffs. A high ranking keeps the issue alive in the media and the student body. Princeton’s high ranking last year is why Ivy League Executive Director Robyn Harris had to address the issue of playoff participation at this year’s Media Day.

Change happens at a glacial pace in the Ivy League but it does happen. The recently initiated Ivy League basketball tournament is the most recent example. The key is to keep the heat on.

I hope you are right. Back in 2006, I would have said for sure that the Ivies would be participating in the playoffs 10-15 years down the road. And here we are in 2019 and there doesn't seem to be much of an appetite.

As far as the rankings go, I don't think it will change anything. Despite how much the conference rises in the Sagarin or Maseey computer rankings relative to other conferences, the Ivy champ will always be ranked somewhere in the 15-20 range, with a strong second place team somewhere behind them in the Top 25. Every once in a while, an extremely dominant team will squeak into the Top 10 like Princeton last year. In 2004, Harvard was actually ranked dead even with national champ JMU by Sagarin but where did they finish in the polls? 18?

[DFW HOYA]

I hope you are right. Back in 2006, I would have said for sure that the Ivies would be participating in the playoffs 10-15 years down the road. And here we are in 2019 and there doesn't seem to be much of an appetite.


2029 will be the same story.

And 10 years from now, is the Patriot League participating in the playoffs? (Or will there be a Patriot League in 2029?)

(The sneak peak answer to both questions; "Eh, probably.")

[Sader87]

[QUOTE=DFW HOYA;2807417]2029 will be the same story.

And 10 years from now, is the Patriot League participating in the playoffs? (Or will there be a Patriot League in 2029?)

(The sneak peak answer to both questions; "Eh, probably.")



Hold my beer....will there be NCAA football and/or FCS football in 2029?

[cx500d]

Plus one with this. I don't vote in the AGS poll, mainly because I only follow the MVC and OVC. The rest of the FCS, I usually only glance at scores, but don't know enough about to make decisions on them. When the playoff bracket is announced I have to look at the other team's schedules and see who they've played and how they've done. I used to follow all of the FCS and FBS somewhat closely, but I just don't have time to anymore. I just follow my favorite teams now (ISUb and EIU) and their conference members.

With that said, if I did vote, I would not vote for the Ivy, SWAC, or MEAC. The rankings should be for playoff eligible teams only. If I was on the selection committee I would also not consider the MEAC for at-large bids. If they want their bowl game they can have it, but they shouldn't be sending their leftovers to the playoffs. Either send your best or no one.

Good points.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[caribbeanhen]

I don't consider Ivies in my poll. They want to be their own enigma so be it.

how bout now?

[Son of Eli]

By way of example here is Yale’s record against OOC competition since 2013:

Patriot League 10-5
Big Sky 1-0
CAA 3-0
Southern. 1-0
FBS. 1-0


Total 16-5

Q.E.D.

[clenz]

I posed the NEC's entire OOC history leading up to this year in another thread

It's - to quote Letterkenny - ****ing embarassing.

To see an NEC fan start this thread and arguments for the NEC being ranked is....also...****ing embarassing

[clenz]

The NEC OOC all time going into this year was

0-6 against the Big Sky - outscored by 57 points
21-30 against the Big South - outscored by 167 points
8-34 against the CAA - outscored by 732 points
9-17 against the Ivy - outscored by 146 points
2-3 against the MEAC - a 41 point advantage
0-18 against the MVFC - outscored by 640 points
0-4 against the OVC - outscored by 56 points
24-18 against the PFL - a 148 point advantage
24-25 against the PL - outscored by 78 points
0-1 against the SoCon - outscored by 42 points

42-3 against non D-1
0-15 against the FBS - outscored by 510 points

That is 130-174 all time....but that includes 42 non D1 wins

Against D1 teams they are 88-171
Against D1 FCS scholarship teams they are 64-138
45 of those 64 wins are against leagues that until just a few years ago didn't include scholarships or didn't even exist and have been nothing but transitional/start up programs.

In games the NEC website specifically mentions as being ranked games the NEC is 2-22 and the 2 wins were a Big South Liberty team ranked in the 20s (and we know Liberty was always SUPER over ranked early in the season) and Stony Brook - ranked in the 20s (they didn't finish that year ranked IIRC). In those 22 games they were outscored by an average of 27 points per game.


The NEC is, on their best day, equal to the Patriot in an average year.
The NEC is, on their best day, equal to the MEAC in an average year
The NEC, is on their best day, equal the Big South

The only conferences I'd put the NEC over is the PFL and the SWAC.

To see any NEC team talking any sort of **** about the Ivy is just laughable.

[caribbeanhen]

Dartmouth can beat anyone in the country

gotta be in top 5

maybe the powers will finally relent and let the participate in playoff football

[aceinthehole]

Dartmouth can beat anyone in the country

gotta be in top 5

maybe the powers will finally relent and let the participate in playoff football

But they won't play anyone - 10 game schedule and won't participate in the playoffs.

[Lorne_Malvo]

Dartmouth has a #246 SOS. Out of 256 I would say thats a pretty soft schedule.
The top 5 FCS teams would roll them. And no, they are not top 5.

[smilo]

Dartmouth can beat anyone in the country

gotta be in top 5

maybe the powers will finally relent and let the participate in playoff football

Agreed. Hard to slot them lower than #4. I don't think Nova would have a prayer against them. Maybe Sac State would?

Wouldn't count them out against JMU. Flat out dominant.

[JacksFan40]

Agreed. Hard to slot them lower than #4. I don't think Nova would have a prayer against them. Maybe Sac State would?

Wouldn't count them out against JMU. Flat out dominant.
They’d get rolled by the Top 5.

[caribbeanhen]

Dartmouth has a #246 SOS. Out of 256 I would say thats a pretty soft schedule.
The top 5 FCS teams would roll them. And no, they are not top 5.

I think you would be shocked. Haha

[caribbeanhen]

They’d get rolled by the Top 5.

did you see any of the game?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Dartmouth has a #246 SOS. Out of 256 I would say thats a pretty soft schedule.
The top 5 FCS teams would roll them. And no, they are not top 5.

Strength of schedule literally has nothing to do with the quality of a certain team. Players and coaches determine a team's ceiling. Not the opponents.....

[Ivytalk]

But they won't play anyone - 10 game schedule and won't participate in the playoffs.

But...but...but...Hillary’s e-mails!xlolx

[van]

well since Princeton, Yale and Dartmouth play each other the poll pecking order of those 3 will sort itself out, personally, having watched Dartmouth several times I believe they are the best of the three and easily a top 20 team, I doubt that any of the Ivies lose sleep over where they land in the polls anyway

[Go Green]

I doubt that any of the Ivies lose sleep over where they land in the polls anyway

Well, there is the Lambert Cup to consider.

Hope someone knocks off JMU!!!

[Go Green]

Anyone who wants to see some fun stats, check out the Dartmouth Football blog this morning.

:)

http://biggreenalertblog.blogspot.com/2019/10/fireworks.html

[Gil Dobie]

Ivy's are on an Island in FCS.

[Son of Eli]

Richmond beat Delaware today further bolstering the case for the Ivy League (Yale beat Richmond on the road last week).

[aceinthehole]

Richmond beat Delaware today further bolstering the case for the Ivy League (Yale beat Richmond on the road last week).

Albany (5-3) beat Richmond and Monmouth (6-2) beat Albany. So what does that tell us about those 2 teams?

[ncspiderfan]

Albany (5-3) beat Richmond and Monmouth (6-2) beat Albany. So what does that tell us about those 2 teams?
You meant Richmond beat Albany, I think.

[aceinthehole]

You meant Richmond beat Albany, I think.

Yes, Albany lost to Richmond, but beat Towson and is 3-1 in the CAA. Monmouth beat Albany.

I'm not sure what that means for Yale and the Ivy :)

[Sader87]

Dartmouth, Princeton, Harvard and Yale would all beat CCSU 8, 9 or 10 times out of 10 if they played this year imo.

[ncspiderfan]

Yes, Albany lost to Richmond, but beat Towson and is 3-1 in the CAA. Monmouth beat Albany.

I'm not sure what that means for Yale and the Ivy :)
I do not know what it means for the Ivy either, but have to give Yale credit where credit is due, they went to Richmond and played for 60 minutes and got a win.

[ngineer]

Didn't Richmond lose to Fordham, who lost to Lehigh?...We can all play the 'who beat who' game.

[Ivytalk]

Yes, Albany lost to Richmond, but beat Towson and is 3-1 in the CAA. Monmouth beat Albany.

I'm not sure what that means for Yale and the Ivy :)
Says the vanquisher of the mighty Long Island Sharks! What is that? A Pop Warner team from Easthampton?

[Son of Eli]

According to this morning’s Massey ratings the Ivy League has four teams in the top 25, one in the top 5 and two in the top 10.

#5 Dartmouth
#8 Princeton
#23 Yale
#24 Harvard.

https://www.masseyratings.com/cf2019/fcs/ratings

[MR. CHICKEN]

.....IVIES CAN BALL............MIDWESTERNER'S....TA LEFT COASTERS..........OWN-LAH SEE DEY'RE SKED SHORTCOMIN'S.......BAWK!

[polsongrizz]

I don't consider Ivies in my poll. They want to be their own enigma so be it.

Agreed