Calling off the Dogs

[DaGriz]

Every year it seems a school gets accused of running up the score against an opponent. Before the season starts and it's not too heated, at what point do you call off the dogs when you are playing an opponent? Start of the 4th qtr up by 30, 5 mins left up by 20 and it's a conference game, half time up by 50, when you are playing a level below you or when you are in the playoffs, etc, etc? In my opinion the only time I think you call off the dogs is when you are way up in the 4th and the other team pulls all their starters, begins to run out the clock and basically gives up. I think if the losing team isn't going to give up, then the winning team shouldn't be expected to either.

[th0m]

I agree, just keep playing. Although, you don't have to make certain sacrifices that you would make if you were, say, tied in the 4th. I'm talking about sacrifices that could lead to injuries, stuff like that. So inevitably you are playing less than 100%, but still alert of any sudden change of the other team, whatever change that may be.

[Obzerver]

If a team is up by 20 pts in the 4th qtr. and dominating the game I would simply go into a pass prevent defense and coast to a win...oh yeah, that might not always work...

[blukeys]

Every year it seems a school gets accused of running up the score against an opponent. Before the season starts and it's not too heated, at what point do you call off the dogs when you are playing an opponent? Start of the 4th qtr up by 30, 5 mins left up by 20 and it's a conference game, half time up by 50, when you are playing a level below you or when you are in the playoffs, etc, etc? In my opinion the only time I think you call off the dogs is when you are way up in the 4th and the other team pulls all their starters, begins to run out the clock and basically gives up. I think if the losing team isn't going to give up, then the winning team shouldn't be expected to either.


"Running up the score" is the biggest whine of losers. Delaware was beating W&M by 21 going into the 4th quarter of the playoffs last year I guess that would have been a good time to pull the starters. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The coach has to make an individual decision game by game. The coach can see that a team is outclassed and put the 2nd team in by the 2nd quarter and I have seen it. On the other hand a quality team that falls behind is still dangerous especially in the A-10 where there are so many great skill players who can score after one missed tackle.

In 1995 McNeese Kicked Delaware's butt 52-18 in the playoffs and had their starting RB in the game in the 4th quarter (the guy was a horse). Personally, I consider that a sign of respect. You are saying this is a dangerous team and we aren't gonna let up till the clock says 0.00. By the way you heard no complaint from Tubby Raymond after this game. instead He walked in to the McNeese dressing room and tossed his hat in. (At the time MCNeese had a custom of keeping the hats of the opposing coaches that lost to them).

For the world's biggest whiners in this area, check out the snot nosed punk assed sports writers for The Morning Call in Lehigh country. They can't trash Delaware for anything else so they pick up on the "running up the score" complaint. Their trashing of Tubby Raymond in 2000 represented a new low in homerism and totally bogus reporting.

[ngineer]

Come on blu--you're still carrying around a chip from 5 years ago? :confused: Me thinks thou dost protest too much. Yes, there are a couple sports writers that complain about ANY team that runs up the score (the young punk nose description is curious, since most of the sports writers at the Call are pretty long in the tooth).
I fully agree that as long as the other team is playing hard and still within range, no sense to go into a shell--that can really cause problems if the other team starts to score. The main thing I get concerned about is having a key starter get injured if we're up big. Plus getting your underclassmen into the game and get real experience is key for the longterm.

[AndrewFU21]

The game last sixty minutes, and a team should be expected to play ball until the final whistle blows, no matter the score. While I don't particularly like it when teams throw deep balls and the like when the game is well in hand, I certainly cannot blame a team for running its offense and defense for the entire duration of the game.

[kats89]

Hey coaches are goiing to run their offenses regardless if it is the 1st team or 4th team on the field. Defenses job is to stop them.

[bkrownd]

If somebody's running up the score, it's the DEFENSE that's to blame. Don't go crying to yer mommies about how your feewings got hurt.

[DemiGS]

Let me toss this out there....
When I was attending GSU, I saw a number of lopsided games. And during my time in Statesboro, a GSU starter could be forgiven if he thought a game lasted 30 minutes. But many times the second and third strings that enter a game are fresh, and playing against a tired team. Not to mention they have something to prove to their coaches. So as far as the scoring goes....maybe the RB that has run all night would be less inclined to go the extra yard then the kid that has something to prove??

[DFW HOYA]

I fully agree that as long as the other team is playing hard and still within range, no sense to go into a shell--that can really cause problems if the other team starts to score. The main thing I get concerned about is having a key starter get injured if we're up big. Plus getting your underclassmen into the game and get real experience is key for the longterm.

That certainly didn't stop Lehigh from running it up on Georgetown in 2002. The Hoyas were severely depleted in the defensive secondary, and they were essentially out of options by the first quarter. That didn't stop the Engineers from throwing a touchdown pass in the final minute of a half up 42-0 instead of running out the clock.

Great stat builder for Schwenk, but yes, this would qualify as running it up.

[62GRIZ]

Montana State called off the Cats last year against Eastern Washington in the third quarter after taking a 38-10 lead at home. Final score? Eastern Washington 51 Montana State 44

[breezy]

During the early years of the Patriot League, while Holy Cross still had scholarship players and the other teams did not, Holy Cross enjoyed numerous victories by large margins over the other teams. Since Holy Cross employed the run-and-shoot offense in those days, the substitutes would still be throwing passes in the 4th quarter, and this generated some complaints about running-up-the-score. The coaching staff said the substitutes were entitled to run the offense and not just stop playing the game. Actually, I saw some of those games and on occasion I felt some of it was overdone.

Later, when fortunes reversed, I felt some teams ran up the score on us, but I also felt there was some sense that it was pay-back time.

I appreciate the remarks made here by some that an opponent can always come back and everyone can point to some great comebacks. Still, there comes a point when the game is just over and it's simply a matter of letting the clock run down to zero. Especially where there is an evident disparity in talent, there should first be liberal substitutions and then even restriction to basic plays. If a run up the middle leads to a break-away for a touchdown, so be it.

When does this point occur? I think it's impossible to generalize. It depends on the teams, the score, the weather, etc. A three-touchdown margin is probably the minimum. Once the fourth quarter begins, a four-touchdown margin should suffice. But each case has to be judged on its own merits.

[Tribe4SF]

Coaches know whether a team is truly overmatched. The MSU-EWU game last year is an example of having a big lead that you should not sit on. Our games with Towson and Richmond last year saw us get big leads, and the score was appropriately held down.

[PAllen]

I'd have to agree that there is no way to generalize when to pull the starters. But, every lopsided game has a point at which the outcome is no longer in doubt. This depends on the difference in the quality of the teams as much as anything else. Having just finished the lacrosse season I can say one thing. When a game is a blowout and the losing team is clearly outclassed, if the winning team keeps their starters in with a big lead, the officials will clamp down hard on them. In lax, you will suddenly see all sorts of technical fouls called until the winning coach gets the picture and starts subbing out his stars. It's not unheard of for an official to ask a goaly to let the next shot go in for a goal in a totally lopsided game (as long as it's not a shutout). Just one of the nice things lacrosse has over football. But I will say that I think officials in most sports will tighten things up against a team that is running up the score. Keeping starters in when there is no doubt as to the victor does no good for any of the players on the field.

[ngineer]

That certainly didn't stop Lehigh from running it up on Georgetown in 2002. The Hoyas were severely depleted in the defensive secondary, and they were essentially out of options by the first quarter. That didn't stop the Engineers from throwing a touchdown pass in the final minute of a half up 42-0 instead of running out the clock.

Great stat builder for Schwenk, but yes, this would qualify as running it up.
In the FIRST half. I'm sorry, but I have seen too many games that were looking like blowouts at halftime and all of a sudden the worm turned. Granted, to even the casual observer, Lehigh was totally superior, but one still runs their offense. Lehigh played their second, third and four deep players the second half. Lembo had no reason to 'try' and run it up. It was his alma mater, and his old coach with whom he started coaching. The final score was 69-0 and Lehigh could have easily broken their single game record of 106-0 over Penn State had they wanted to; but then, again, they didn't because who doesn't want to keep that record in your media guide and program :D

[Umass74]

During the early years of the Patriot League, while Holy Cross still had scholarship players and the other teams did not, Holy Cross enjoyed numerous victories by large margins over the other teams. Since Holy Cross employed the run-and-shoot offense in those days, the substitutes would still be throwing passes in the 4th quarter, and this generated some complaints about running-up-the-score.

As breezy said, when Holy Cross had their great teams in the late 80's their coach was known as Mark-run-it-up-Dufner. As Breezy said, they did have a run-and-gun offense that was difficult to dial down.

Some teams, Including UMass were not happy about the length of time Holy Cross left their starters in. When they beat us 54-10 in 1987, the last Cross touchdown was caught by a Heisman Trophy candidate late in the 4th quarter.

Some of those hard feelings may have contributed to the 1995 51-0 UMass blowout in 95, but UMass had a running team (414 yards rushing that day) and only threw the ball for 6 completions.

[blackfordpu]

Thw winning team should never give up because the team that is behind is not going to. SHSU was down 35-14 to EWU in last years playoffs going into the 4th quarter. The Kats did not let up and EWU went to a prevent to try and protect their lead. They were so concerned with keeping the lead they forgot to protect it. What was the outcome? SHSU wins a stunner 35-34 on the last play of the game.

[DFW HOYA]

In the FIRST half. I'm sorry, but I have seen too many games that were looking like blowouts at halftime and all of a sudden the worm turned.

Was the second half more reasonable? Yes. But come on, Lehigh has the ball on the ten yard line with with 54 seconds in the half to a team with negative total yardage and Chad Schwenk really needs to throw another TD?

Whatever momentary grumbles Lembo would have heard from the Goodman crowd, telling Schwenk to take a knee for two plays would have been the smart thing to do.

[skinny_uncle]

Most coaches will pull their starters in a lopsided game to avoid injuries to their starters and give the bench players some experience. It is not just about sportmanship. When to pull those starters is up to the individual coaches judgment. Leaving players in just to pad their stats is both unsportsmanlike and bad judgment.

[ngineer]

During the early years of the Patriot League, while Holy Cross still had scholarship players and the other teams did not, Holy Cross enjoyed numerous victories by large margins over the other teams. Since Holy Cross employed the run-and-shoot offense in those days, the substitutes would still be throwing passes in the 4th quarter, and this generated some complaints about running-up-the-score. The coaching staff said the substitutes were entitled to run the offense and not just stop playing the game. Actually, I saw some of those games and on occasion I felt some of it was overdone.

Later, when fortunes reversed, I felt some teams ran up the score on us, but I also felt there was some sense that it was pay-back time.

I appreciate the remarks made here by some that an opponent can always come back and everyone can point to some great comebacks. Still, there comes a point when the game is just over and it's simply a matter of letting the clock run down to zero. Especially where there is an evident disparity in talent, there should first be liberal substitutions and then even restriction to basic plays. If a run up the middle leads to a break-away for a touchdown, so be it.

When does this point occur? I think it's impossible to generalize. It depends on the teams, the score, the weather, etc. A three-touchdown margin is probably the minimum. Once the fourth quarter begins, a four-touchdown margin should suffice. But each case has to be judged on its own merits.

No question, breezy, there was some payback. I remember the Crusader/Engineer game of 1987 in the last year of Taylor Stadium. Even Governor Casey, a Holy Cross alum was present to witness the 63-6 shellacking. The following two years were also lopsided, though not as bad, 48-24 and 55-16. Then we go to the late 90's and I still remember a good number of people in the stands imploring Higgins to 'run it up', notably in 1999 with a 62-8 payback.
However, we also know that scores can be deceptive in that turnovers and flukey bounces can cause a sudden shift and momentum just gathers as the wheels fall off one of the team's vehicles. Let's not forget one of the greatest games of all-time that was an amazing shootout when HC won 43-42 in 1991--sort of halfway between the two run 'em up games--when I think the half time score was relatively small (was it 7-6 at half?) and all hell broke loose in the fourth quarter with each team scoring four or five times!

[eaglesrthe1]

That certainly didn't stop Lehigh from running it up on Georgetown in 2002. The Hoyas were severely depleted in the defensive secondary, and they were essentially out of options by the first quarter. That didn't stop the Engineers from throwing a touchdown pass in the final minute of a half up 42-0 instead of running out the clock.

Great stat builder for Schwenk, but yes, this would qualify as running it up.

No lead is too big in one half. What can be done by one team in thirty minutes can be done by the other in the next thirty.

[ChickenMan]

In '00... a 9-0 UD squad led UNH 31-3 at the end of three quarters... only to lose the game in OT... 45-44. I've seen enough football to realize that vs a quality opponent... few leads are too large.

[McNeese75]

"Running up the score" is the biggest whine of losers. Delaware was beating W&M by 21 going into the 4th quarter of the playoffs last year I guess that would have been a good time to pull the starters. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The coach has to make an individual decision game by game. The coach can see that a team is outclassed and put the 2nd team in by the 2nd quarter and I have seen it. On the other hand a quality team that falls behind is still dangerous especially in the A-10 where there are so many great skill players who can score after one missed tackle.

In 1995 McNeese Kicked Delaware's butt 52-18 in the playoffs and had their starting RB in the game in the 4th quarter (the guy was a horse). Personally, I consider that a sign of respect. You are saying this is a dangerous team and we aren't gonna let up till the clock says 0.00. By the way you heard no complaint from Tubby Raymond after this game. instead He walked in to the McNeese dressing room and tossed his hat in. (At the time MCNeese had a custom of keeping the hats of the opposing coaches that lost to them).

For the world's biggest whiners in this area, check out the snot nosed punk assed sports writers for The Morning Call in Lehigh country. They can't trash Delaware for anything else so they pick up on the "running up the score" complaint. Their trashing of Tubby Raymond in 2000 represented a new low in homerism and totally bogus reporting.

That hat along with the other 10 teams the Pokes beat and one from Marshall are still in a case on the wall of the Cowboy Club Building.

No lead is big enough, to many teams have called off the dogs only have fleas when the clock runs out. :mad:

[OL FU]

A team that continues to score running its offense with first, second or third stringers is not running up the score. They are playing the game. The following is running up the score.

Some time ago, FU played Florida State. At the end of the third quarter it is FSU 7 FU 3. Predictably it ends up being a 30 - 40 point romp. However, Florida State is throwing Hail Mary's with 30 seconds to go in the game. Now it is the coaches right to do that, but that is running up the score.

[MR. CHICKEN]

RUNNIN' IT UP?

AH REMEMBER....ALABAMA WAS PLAYIN' TCU......IT'S 60-0......LATE...VERAH LATE....IN DUH 4th Q. ............DUH BEAR CALLS TIME OUT.....SENDS IN DUH FG TEAM..........FINAL 63-0!..........NOW DAT IS RUNNIN' IT UP BETTERAH DAN MRS. CHICKEN...USIN' DUH PLATINUM PLUS!............:mad:...................AWK@A-10/UH-OH.I-AA!

[89Hen]

I don't think anybody mentioned the UD - West Chester game from 2000. 84-0 and it wasn't a case of UD running up the score... actually it was, they kept the ball on the ground but kept moving the ball (over 50+ for 440+ yards). Short of taking a knee every time they had the ball, I'm not sure what else they could have done. Worst part about the game is WCU drove down the the UD 9 with 10 seconds left in the game and called a time out to try to score. Instead they throw an INT which was returned the distance for the final score. :D

[Proud Griz Man]

In '00... a 9-0 UD squad led UNH 31-3 at the end of three quarters... only to lose the game in OT... 45-44. I've seen enough football to realize that vs a quality opponent... few leads are too large.

I know that you're a long time fan who's seen mucho football and had time to make 3,500 posts. Was that UNH game in 1900 or 2000? :D ;)

[ChickenMan]

I know that you're a long time fan who's seen mucho football and had time to make 3,500 posts. Was that UNH game in 1900 or 2000? :D ;)


Must have been 2000... they didn't play OT during the 1900 season... :p

[89Hen]

Proof...

1900
(2-3-1)
Head Coach: Herbert L. Rice
Captain: Theodore R. Wolf

Oct. 6 Franklin & Marshall 28 - Delaware 10 A
Oct. 13 Johns Hopkins 5 - Delaware 0 A
Oct. 27 Delaware 17 - Penn. Military College 0 A
Nov. 7 Delaware 5 - Haverford 5 A
Nov. 10 Ursinus 12 - Delaware 0 A
Nov. 29 Delaware 34 - Hahnemann 0 H

:D

[PapaBear]

Until someone shows me clinical evidence that losing by a lopsided score causes permanent emotional scarring, I say let 'em play. I mean, it's a football game, for criminy sakes, not a massacre of innocent civilians. You're pissed that they ran up the score? Get better, or fire your AD for scheduling such a bad mismatch.

[Ronbo]

Proof...

1900
(2-3-1)
Head Coach: Herbert L. Rice
Captain: Theodore R. Wolf

Oct. 6 Franklin & Marshall 28 - Delaware 10 A
Oct. 13 Johns Hopkins 5 - Delaware 0 A
Oct. 27 Delaware 17 - Penn. Military College 0 A
Nov. 7 Delaware 5 - Haverford 5 A
Nov. 10 Ursinus 12 - Delaware 0 A
Nov. 29 Delaware 34 - Hahnemann 0 H

:D


I've never even heard of 5 of your opponents there. :D

[ChickenMan]

I've never even heard of 5 of your opponents there. :D


Back in 1900 not too many people had heard of the state of Montana... :p