NCAA bans Indian mascots

[Umass74]

I don't believe that this has been posted before. If it has, please excuse

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8838557/

[rokamortis]

Shouldn't it be Native American mascots? I don't seem to see too many Indian mascots.

[Umass74]

Shouldn't it be Native American mascots? I don't seem to see too many Indian mascots.

Tell MSNBC editors ;)

[rokamortis]

I hear ya - I am just giving them and the NCAA a hard time.

[blueballs]

The NCAA had better be ready to open their checkbook when Florida State University AND the Seminole Indian (I am a native American, born and raised in the USA, hence native American-even though I'm caucasian) tribe sues them.

I can see them banning "Indian" mascots, including the Washington "Cab Drivers," the New York " Roach Hoteliers," the Atlanta "Convenience Store Owners," and the Houston "Doctors."

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This applies to mascots only, and only to postseason (read: bowls and I-AA playoffs). So Florida State can continue to have the "Seminole" nickname, and during every single regular-season game, any of these schools are still more than welcome to "offend" Native Americans. :rolleyes:

Toothless.

[blukeys]

This applies to mascots only, and only to postseason (read: bowls and I-AA playoffs). So Florida State can continue to have the "Seminole" nickname, and during every single regular-season game, any of these schools are still more than welcome to "offend" Native Americans. :rolleyes:

Toothless.

It would apply to the I-AA playoffs and the NCAA basketball tournament and all the other tournaments that the NCAA sponsors that crowns a national champion. I don't believe it would apply to bowls. Technically BCS has no association with the NCAA.

It is really a typically dumb politically correct move and will only further increase the view that the NCAA is an irrelevant organization with no clue as to what are the important issues they should deal with.

[TexasTerror]

The NCAA is ridiculous. They are banning all Indian mascots and logos from post-season play, though they can remain during regular season play. How does that help? Isn't this when the NCAA makes all their money for merchandise selling all that NCAA logo stuff at championship events like "FLORIDA STATE SEMINOLES CITRUS BOWL SHIRTS" or "LOUSIANA MONROE INDIANS COLLEGE WORLD SERIES HATS". Ridiculous!

If the NCAA wants to ban these, they may as well ban these completely instead of just hurting the schools for having success into postseason play. I am not making much sense of this one. Isn't postseason success what a team strives for? I am sure more will be known when some things come to light as the NCAA officially lays this out and the affected institutions speak up.

I see some lawsuits forthcoming or some words exchanged from NCAA member institutions.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/more/08/05/bc.ncaa.indiannicknames.ap/index.html?cnn=yes

[ChickenMan]

More PC madness... look out W&M... the 'Tribe' may soon be under attack.

[colgate13]

More PC madness... look out W&M... the 'Tribe' may soon be under attack.

Interesting... I never thought of them. Are there some groups that find W&M offensive?

http://www.coasttocoasttickets.com/images/ncaab_william%26marytribe.jpg

What year did they change from Indians to Tribe? I mean, I can see how this is offensive:

http://www.dgblake.com/basketball/ebayWmMary.jpg

[henfan]

Say it ain't so, Joe! No, Indian mascots?!!

Guess it's time for the Delaware A&M Smitin' Vishnus to find a new mascot.

http://education.vsnl.com/vishnu_parva/Vishnu.jpg

Could the MSNBC's headline hackjob have been any less PC?

[Coastal89]

Hillbillies and rednecks are people to. I'm offended by the ASU mascot. :eek: :eek: :D

[rokamortis]

How insulting is the McNeese mascot? CowBOYS? They are CowMen thank you very much.

[Umass74]

I thought that Flordia State and the Seminoles had a licensed agreement. Flordia state pays the Seminoles a fee for using their name. I further thought that it was not controversal at all for them (meaning the Seminoles)

Can the NCAA ban a licensed trademark that Flordia State bought and paid for? Don't bowl teams make a bundle on post season t-shirts and such?

[SuperEagle]

Living in Atlanta and being an Atlanta Braves fan, it's funny how the issue is split between several Indians. In the early 90's, when the issue really became prominant, they interviewed several tribes and the results were mixed. Several Indians actually loved the mascot and thought it portrayed Indians as warriors never giving up. Then the other group found it offensive.
Course most Indians only protested during the World Series. If it was so offensive, why don't they protest it year round?
To me it's not that big of a deal. And I am part Cherokee. If you want a mascot called the "Whiteys or the Crackers", I would laugh hysterically.
Maybe have a team called the Crackers and have their mascot as a pale white guy that can't dance. Where can I buy a shirt?

[ChickenMan]

http://www.onlinesports.com/images/eff-atl-57h.jpg

How about those Atlanta 'Crackers'... a great minor league team from baseball's glory days

[CatFan22]

This whole ordeal is completely absurd. It is just insane to do this.

[Witter19]

This move makes absolutely no sense and will it hurt them in the long-run...

I wonder if anyone actually agrees with this move??

[henfan]

How ironic is it that the NCAA is located in the city of Indianapolis?!

[Retro]

Almost every case i've ever seen where a school used an indian related mascot, did so as a tribute to that particular group of indians or native americans, etc.. I can't wait to hear Florida State and Illinois's reaction to this. I could see a smaller school like Arkansas State caving in to this though.

[Tribe4SF]

We've been the Tribe for better than 20 years. NCAA has bugged us numerous times. Unless they find the feathers offensive, we have no other logos, images or mascots that this will aply to. We went to the sexless, meaningless mascot named Ebirt some time ago.

[TexasTerror]

Is MEACKIE impacted? We have no clue what it is. Perhaps it's offensive... ;)

http://www.meacsports.com/artman/uploads/meackie-coaches.jpg

[TexasTerror]

Another link of note:

http://aistm.org/1indexpage.htm

[Retro]

In reference to that sight, I don't see a bunch of white people whining about the cartoonish nature of mascots like cowboys, colonels, cavaliers, etc..

What about the nebraska cornhusker guy? I guess if he were more black or indian, then someone would be upset, right?

http://www.math.unl.edu/~wkendle/Huskers/HERB2.gif

There are hundereds of mascots that use the image of typical caucasion in some type of setting, but we all know they are just mascots. Why has this become such an offensive issue with a certain few?

The people that bring these issues up are more of a burden to society than productive members of society. They divide the country more than try to bring it together..

There's a saying "If you can't laugh at yourself, then you can't laugh at nobody"

http://www.mascotscostumes.com/

[dungeonjoe]

Almost every case i've ever seen where a school used an indian related mascot, did so as a tribute to that particular group of indians or native americans, etc.. I can't wait to hear Florida State and Illinois's reaction to this. I could see a smaller school like Arkansas State caving in to this though.

Seems like there is a NCAA school in eastern NC that has a majority enrollment of native americans-- If I recall coreectly, they told the NCAA to buzz off recently. It was a Lumbee tribe I think

[rokamortis]

Florida State to Challenge Ban on Mascot (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050805/ap_on_sp_co_ne/ncaa_indian_nicknames)

[dbackjon]

Seems like there is a NCAA school in eastern NC that has a majority enrollment of native americans-- If I recall coreectly, they told the NCAA to buzz off recently. It was a Lumbee tribe I think

The Pembroke State Braves.

The NCAA says THAT is ok, because they are a majority Indian school....

Not too many Lumberjacks left in Flagstaff - I guess we should become the Pines or something....

[gokats85]

One of the most awe-inspiring sights I have ever seen in college football is at Doak Campbell Stadium when Chief Osceola rides out and plants the spear at midfield. I was running a sideline camera there 15 years ago, and I almost blew the shot because I was so captivated.

http://seminoles.collegesports.com/genrel/080505aab.html

Florida State President T.K. Wetherell has issued a statement following the NCAA's ruling.


Aug. 5, 2005


FSU President T.K. Wetherell has issued the following statement in response to action August 5 by the National Collegiate Athletic Association banning the use of American Indian mascots during NCAA championship games. In taking the action, the NCAA deemed FSU's use of the Seminole name and symbols as "hostile or abusive," despite the recent formal endorsement by the Seminole Tribe of Florida for their use.

* * * STATEMENT FROM FSU PRESIDENT T.K. WETHERELL * * *

Florida State University is stunned at the complete lack of appreciation for cultural diversity shown by the National Collegiate Athletic Association's executive committee, which announced today a policy banning schools using Native American names and symbols from hosting NCAA championship events. That the NCAA would now label our close bond with the Seminole Tribe of Florida as culturally "hostile and abusive" is both outrageous and insulting.

On June 17, the Tribal Council of the Seminole Tribe of Florida spoke unequivocally of its support for Florida State University in its use of the Seminole name and related symbols. Accordingly, I intend to pursue all legal avenues to ensure that this unacceptable decision is overturned, and that this university will forever be associated with the "unconquered" spirit of the Seminole Tribe of Florida.

National surveys have shown in recent years that an overwhelming majority of Native Americans are not offended by the use of Native American names and symbols. In making its decision, the executive committee has been swayed by a strident minority of activists who claim to speak for all Native Americans. It is unconscionable that the Seminole Tribe of Florida has been ignored.

The rules as we understand them would have us cover the Seminole name and symbol as if we were embarrassed, and any committee that would think that is a proper and respectful treatment of Native Americans should be ashamed.


Florida State University thanks Seminoles for historic vote of support

Florida State University President T.K. Wetherell recently received a resolution supporting FSU's use of the "Seminole" name when he became the first FSU president to be invited to a meeting of the Seminole Tribe of Florida's Tribal Council, the tribe's chief governing body.

The resolution comes amid the National Collegiate Athletics Association's scrutiny of FSU's use of the Seminole name as well as the use of American Indian nicknames by 30 other NCAA member universities.

"We are deeply grateful to the Seminole Tribe of Florida," Wetherell said after receiving the resolution in the meeting at the tribe's Big Cypress Reservation.

"The message I received was clear," Wetherell said. "As the tribe's storied history shows the Florida Seminoles are an unconquered, sovereign and independent people. Florida State is exercising its own independent spirit in suggesting that the NCAA accept an early recommendation of its own committee and leave these decisions to each university."

The Tribal Council's resolution reads, in part, that the "Seminole Tribe of Florida has an established relationship with Florida State University, which includes its permission to use the name, 'Seminole,' as well as various Seminole symbols and images, such as Chief Osceola, for educational purposes and the Seminole Tribe of Florida wishes to go on record that it has not opposed, and, in fact, supports the continued use of the name 'Seminole.'" The resolution also supports the use of the Seminole head logo, which is endorsed by the university.

"That they chose to go on record and formally reaffirm that they trust us to be good stewards of their name and traditions is humbling," Wetherell said. "We will continue to treat those traditions and the Seminole name with honor and respect."

The resolution also invites FSU "to continue their relationship and collaborate on the development of logos and nicknames that all members of the Seminole Tribe of Florida and officials and students of Florida State University can be proud of."

The full resolution reaffirms the Seminole Tribe of Florida's commitment and relationship with Florida State University and calls for that intent to be expressed in a letter to the FSU President's Office.

"I'm very pleased to see this partnership put to paper," said FSU Board of Trustees Chairman Jim Smith. "It reflects what is already in place - a longstanding, honest relationship between the university and the tribe."

Andy Haggard, vice chairman of the FSU Board of Trustees, attended the Tribal Council meeting with Wetherell. "The respect and admiration we have for the Seminole Tribe of Florida is boundless," Haggard said. "This is fitting and proper, and really lays the groundwork for other shared initiatives."

Many traditions are already in place at FSU. A Seminole color guard participates in every commencement ceremony. A Seminole junior princess participates in the Homecoming parade and crowns the Homecoming princess and chief.

FSU administrators also regularly travel to Seminole reservations to recruit students to be "Seminole Scholars." Wetherell established the scholarships, which pay 80 percent of a student's tuition. Because of his efforts, Florida State will have four new Seminole students this fall, the most ever enrolled at one time. They will join four Seminole students currently enrolled. Three other Seminole students are alumni.

But there are other new developments, Wetherell said, including plans for master Seminole builders to construct an authentic chickee (a Seminole-style shelter) at the university's lakeside recreation area known as the "FSU Reservation" in Tallahassee. At the meeting, Wetherell also proposed a new museum on campus, the Center for Seminole Heritage and Culture; and proposed the development of the first tribal charter school.

The Seminole Tribe of Florida has almost 3,000 members living on and off six reservations in Big Cypress, Tampa, Brighton, Immokalee, Fort Pierce and Hollywood.

[bkrownd]

Too bad there isn't a division-1 alternative to the NCAA that teams could defect to in protest. If the Seminoles were making money from FSU, it would be humorous to see them sue the NCAA for the loss of revenue. I was pretty sad when EMU dropped the distinctive "Hurons" for a lame, generic PC animal mascot. Now it looks like CMU's days as Chippewas may also be numbered. The NCAA is doing as much as anyone to wipe native americans from our collective cultural memory.

[greenG]

Interesting... I never thought of them. Are there some groups that find W&M offensive?

http://www.coasttocoasttickets.com/images/ncaab_william%26marytribe.jpg

What year did they change from Indians to Tribe? I mean, I can see how this is offensive:

http://www.dgblake.com/basketball/ebayWmMary.jpg

That clock must me ancient. When I attended W&M in `80 the school had already abandoned "Indians" for "Tribe". You couldn't find anything in the stores that still had the Indian nickname. W&M chose the Indians nickname originally because the College has a long history, dating back to the 1690s, of providing educational outreach to the Native American community.

In the late `80s there was an attempt to change the "Tribe" nickname to the "Colonials". It died quickly and AFAIK hasn't ever been resurrected. There used to be a male and female mascots at the football games, dressed in fake buckskin and wearing green, yellow, and white headdresses. They are long gone also. I don't believe W&M has a mascot now. I live a long way from campus but I've seen no sign of a mascot in the releases or on the `04 Football video.

The fact that the College wasn't mentioned in the NCAA report probably means it's OK for now. Soon, they'll be back to ban Irish, Spartans, Tar Heels, etc. After that it will be agressive colors, good bye Red Raiders, hellow Pink Panthers. :D

[greenG]

We've been the Tribe for better than 20 years. NCAA has bugged us numerous times. Unless they find the feathers offensive, we have no other logos, images or mascots that this will aply to. We went to the sexless, meaningless mascot named Ebirt some time ago.

I've never seen Ebirt. Got a picture?

[ChickenMan]

I've never seen Ebirt. Got a picture?

http://www.wm.edu/news/slides/homecoming04/ebrit.jpg

[Charlie Don't Surf]

The Seminole Tribe of Florida has no problem with Florida State University using the Seminole as their mascot.

Unfortunately, the Seminole Tribe of Oklahoma does have a problem with it and made it known to FSU.

[therealbigredrules]

The Seminole Tribe of Florida has no problem with Florida State University using the Seminole as their mascot.

Unfortunately, the Seminole Tribe of Oklahoma does have a problem with it and made it known to FSU.

Is the FL Tribe the only one getting money?

[greenG]

Too bad there isn't a division-1 alternative to the NCAA that teams could defect to in protest. If the Seminoles were making money from FSU, it would be humorous to see them sue the NCAA for the loss of revenue. I was pretty sad when EMU dropped the distinctive "Hurons" for a lame, generic PC animal mascot. Now it looks like CMU's days as Chippewas may also be numbered. The NCAA is doing as much as anyone to wipe native americans from our collective cultural memory.

I beleive the Saginaw Band of Chippewas receives a portion of the profits from the sale of CMU licensed goods. Perhaps the suit will come about anyway. It will just come from Mt. Pleasant, not Tallahassee.

[greenG]

The Seminole Tribe of Florida has no problem with Florida State University using the Seminole as their mascot.

Unfortunately, the Seminole Tribe of Oklahoma does have a problem with it and made it known to FSU.

So everyone on the planet has to be happy with a mascot/nickname or it has to go? If a small group of Greek Americans dislikes Michigan State's nickname is it "Adios, Sparty"?

[bkrownd]

So everyone on the planet has to be happy with a mascot/nickname or it has to go? If a small group of Greek Americans dislikes Michigan State's nickname is it "Adios, Sparty"?

Funny thing is here in Hawaii many of the high school mascots are still "Spartans", "Vikings", and other European-influenced nicknames. Not many Hilo kids look remotely like "Vikings".

[Tribe4SF]

Interesting that San Diego State is on the OK list. As far as I know, they remain the Aztecs and have an arrow and feathers in their logos. If they are deemed to be ok, the Tribe may also.

West Georgia remains the Braves and also has an arrow and feather in its logo. Also on the list of 14 schools that are ok with the NCAA.

[DemiGS]

W&M should be OK. Indians (I dislike hyphenated people) don't have a monopoly on tribes. There were tribes in ancient Europe, Africa, Americas, Etc.

[TexasTerror]

The Tribe is fine. The NCAA has already released a list, with one school that is an "exception":

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=2125735

[Husky Alum]

Someone from North Dakota can correct me if I'm wrong but didn't its incredibly wealthy (and now deceased) alum Ralph Englehart put a codicil in his will that if the school ever changed its nickname from the Fighting Sioux or eliminated the indian head mascot, his family could, and would pull all of the gifts Englehart made to UND.

This isn't a small amount, I think his estate was about $200 million, and he also built the world's greatest college hockey rink in Grand Forks.

I read an article in Sports Illustrated about this dude (he was a neo-Nazi and apparently had a painting of Hitler in his office) and found it interesting that this donation would be tied to the school's nickname.

Now my memory may be rusty, but I thought there was a strong link between his donations and the Fighting Sioux nickname.

[Tribe4SF]

NCAA has not yet ruled on W&M. We were given an extension to file because we had a new President take office July 1.

[rokamortis]

No Aztecs on the list?

[TheValleyRaider]

Someone from North Dakota can correct me if I'm wrong but didn't its incredibly wealthy (and now deceased) alum Ralph Englehart put a codicil in his will that if the school ever changed its nickname from the Fighting Sioux or eliminated the indian head mascot, his family could, and would pull all of the gifts Englehart made to UND.

This isn't a small amount, I think his estate was about $200 million, and he also built the world's greatest college hockey rink in Grand Forks.

I read an article in Sports Illustrated about this dude (he was a neo-Nazi and apparently had a painting of Hitler in his office) and found it interesting that this donation would be tied to the school's nickname.

Now my memory may be rusty, but I thought there was a strong link between his donations and the Fighting Sioux nickname.

Ralph Englestad. From the sound of the reaction on USCHO.com's board to the NCAA's, this is the case. He also forced a change to the current Sioux logo they have (Chicago Blackhawks-style) from a minimalist, generic Indian head. As such, the hockey area (the Ralph) is covered with Sioux logos, and also is the planned host of an NCAA regional for hockey this season.

I'm glad Florida State plans on fighting this, especially since I believe they pay rights to the Florida Seminole tribe for the use of the name. This is just a whole bunch of nonsense out of a non-player like the NCAA. Part of the reason the ban only exists for Postseason play is that that's the only time the NCAA has any real control. Regular season games are run by the individual schools and 'sanctioned' by the NCAA, meaning they played by the same rulebook as everyone else. Of course, as previously mentioned, this also leaves out I-A football entirely, given the only postseason there exists outside their official jurisdiction.

Also, from the ESPN article:

Fourteen schools have removed all references to Native American culture or were deemed not to have references to Native American culture as part of their athletics programs: California State-Stanislaus, Lycoming College, Winona State University, Hawaii-Manoa, Eastern Connecticut State, East Stroudsburg, Husson College, Merrimack College, Southeast Missouri State, State University of West Georgia, Stonehill College, San Diego State, Wisconsin Lutheran College and the University of North Carolina-Pembroke.

I for one am glad the NCAA at least cleared SEMO's Redhawks mascot as having nothing to do with Indians at all. Especially since they changed it for that express purpose a couple years ago :bang:


The College of William and Mary has been given an extension to complete its self-study on the mascot issue.

Say it ain't so! Save the Tribe!

[AmsterBison]

Someone from North Dakota can correct me if I'm wrong but didn't its incredibly wealthy (and now deceased) alum Ralph Englehart put a codicil in his will that if the school ever changed its nickname from the Fighting Sioux or eliminated the indian head mascot, his family could, and would pull all of the gifts Englehart made to UND....

Well, I can fill you in. This is a long saga, so get yourself a cool drink :)

First of all, folks from UND would tell you that there was no way Ralph Engelstad was a neo-nazi (as you stated later in your post). In fact, in Grand Forks he is viewed as the Hockey Messiah and possibly the Greatest Man Who Ever Lived. Yes, he did have bumper stickers printed up that said, "Hitler was right." Yes, he did have a bust of Hitler on this desk. Yes, he did have a poster in German of some WWII kids going to "summer camp" in his office. Yes, he did have portraits of himself wearing a Nazi uniform (or standing next to Hitler or maybe it was both). Yes, he did collect a lot of Nazi memorabilia. Yes, he did celebrate Hitler's birthday. Yes, neo-nazis showed up to protest when the Las Vegas gaming commission fined him a couple million dollars for conduct detrimental to the good name of Vegas (yes, Vegas's good name). However, when the University of North Dakota sent a delegation to see if he was really as bad as all that, they found no reason not to accept large donations from him in the future. And you know what? As distastefully and shamelessly as I believe UND acted in this matter, I do NOT think that Ralph was a neo-nazi. He admired the totalitarian control Hitler had over his subjects; he had an execrable sense of humor; and he wanted to get under the skin of business competitors who happened to be Jewish, but I do not think that he was a neo-Nazi. I think he was a good man who had absolutely no business taking control of a public university.

So jump forward a couple years. The tribal councils of just about every Sioux tribe in existence have written letters to UND asking them to stop using the nickname. Ralph Engelstad has agreed to build a hockey palace for the university. UND's president has decided to put together a commission to make a decision about the issue once and for all, perhaps not realizing the crapstorm this is going to cause because everybody with a single troy ounce of sense could have told you that a major reason for building the arena was to provide Ralph leverage if UND ever even thought about changing the nickname or doing anything to adversely affect the hockey team.

Like lambs to the slaughter, the commission that President Kupchella assembled plods along spending months meeting and doing things like conducting polls to find out what folks think. Unsurprisingly, about 99.9% of white folks think that the nickname is just fine, that the protesters are a bunch of whiners and that Indians have more pressing issues to worry about. However, 2/3 of the Indian kids at UND polled were against the nickname. That should have raised some red flags right there.

Anyway, to this day, whenever opposition to the nickname comes up, it's always described as a handful of lily white whiners. While I disagree with many of the arguments used against the nickname, I find it unsupportable to say that when the folks saying it know damn well it isn't true. When you have to resort to outright lies to make your case, maybe it's time to re-examine your position rather than sacrificing your integrity at the altar of some freaking marketing gimmick.

Anway, so the "nickname commission" makes their decision (the results of which, to my knowledge, have never been released by the University of North Dakota to the public). President Kupchella schedules a meeting to meet with the State Board of Higher Education to inform them about what the decision is going to be. The night before, Ralph faxes letters to all the Board members telling them that President Kupchella is a jackass and that he will pull the plug on the hockey arena if they don't tell him and his nickname group to go pound sand (apparently he got tipped off). Several of the board members get on the phone to talk about it amongst themselves that night (oops, broke a little law there). Then they change the agenda of the next day's meeting (oops, broke another little law) and decide that the first order of business is going to be to cut President Kupchella off before he can say anything and tell him that he will keep the nickname regardless of what the committee decided - in affect they said, "Hey, thanks for the nine months of work, but we don't want to hear about it." Nobody in North Dakota hears what really went on - all we hear is that the State Board decided to step in at the last minute after months of saying that they weren't going to get involved. About a month later, some AP reporter decides to use the open records laws to see what happened. That's when all the skullduggery comes to light. Of course, every last member of the State Board of Higher Ed says either that Engelstad's letter had nothing to do with their decision or that they didn't ever see the letter (one guy who said this actually just avoided jail time for another little fib he told to the FBI on an unrelated matter). Nothing was done about reprimanding any member of the State Board, for ND is a small state and a lot of unpleasant facts can be swept under the rug, especially if they affect the U of North Dakota and even more so if it affects their hockey team.

Anyway, because of this, the hockey arena project pushes on. Ralph decides that to make sure that the "Fighting Sioux" logo never goes away, he'll have his architects put the logo everywhere - I mean EVERYWHERE. There are thousands and thousands of Sioux logos in that place. You'd basically have to gut the place to get rid of them.

Now UND has a very nice hockey arena to skate around in and everybody is happy... almost. Yeah, some people got upset when stuff happened, like stores in Grand Forks selling t-shirts with a a caricature of an Indian having anal sex with a Bison (http://www.und.edu/org/bridges/), but *hey* it's a honor for the Sioux to be associated with UND.

However, there is one fly in the ointment. Rather than give the hockey arena to UND, it is run by a company, a spin-off of Ralph's Las Vegas empire. This company will turn over control of the arena in around twenty years or so. There is no legal agreement in place stipulating this so the turnover depends on UND maintaining the good will of the company.

As a result, this company has tremendous leverage over UND and they all but run day-to-day operations of UND's athletic department. For example, they televise games, they arrange publicity, they sell tickets, they do advertising -heck, I think the primary function of UND's AD is to communicate the Arena group's demands to the school's president. All decisions remotely affecting the hockey team, whether it is acknowledged or not, go through this company first because to tick of that company would be to endanger the arena. In any event, the net effect is that the University of North Dakota no longer has any meaningful institutional control over their athletic department. In fact, the Arena folks can extend (and I'd argue that they have extended) their influence to any aspect of UND they choose to, athletic or not.

I care very little about the national nickname debate, but I do care about North Dakota. The UND situation is unbelievable and extends far beyond the nickname dispute and to the very heart of UND's mission and the definition of public trust. The jackasses who got them, and my state, into this mess should be ashamed of themselves and, frankly, I'd like to nothing better than to corner each of them individually and give them a piece of my mind. Oh well, this will have to do for now.

Basically, UND was sold to a private party in exchange for the use of a hockey arena, and while the pro-nickname folks claim that they are honoring the Sioux tribes, they do not honor them so much that they will respect their wishes or even acknowledge that any Sioux have ever expressed anything but delight over the nickname. Yeah, that's honoring somebody. That's like a feudal lord honoring peasants by sleeping with their wives on their wedding night.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

First of all, folks from UND would tell you that there was no way Ralph Engelstad was a neo-nazi (as you stated later in your post). ... Yes, he did have bumperstickers printed up that said, "Hitler was right."

You lost me there. How is this not neo-Nazi behavior? And then it actually proceeds to get worse. What is the point of this little story? To praise Engelstad, or to bury him?

The fewer words said about this c***sucker, the better.

[bisonguy]

To expound on what AmsterBison so eloquently stated-

Here's a link to the actual letters written by the individual Sioux tribes either supporting or condemning the use of the Fighting Sioux nickname (there's only one tribe that supports the use, all others have condemned it)- Tribal Statements (http://www.uiuc.edu/dialogue/und_pdf/Tribal_Statements.pdf)

[AmsterBison]

Hmm, I'm not sure exactly why I decided to make that post. Maybe it was because:

First, I'm angry as heck about the debacle in North Dakota.

Second, it's to show that nickname disputes aren't always as simple as they appear.

Third, making the accusation that Ralph is verbotten in North Dakota. While I don't think he was a Nazi, that first paragraph is to show any fellow North Dakotans out there how a reasonable person might jump to that conclusion. I was not being ironic in what I wrote that I think Ralph was a good man with some serious faults (just like us all). However, most of us have friends who will tell us when we are going too far... I'm not sure Ralph did. That's sad.

Fourth, I think, despite my anger, that this is kind of an interesting story... a fable about what can go wrong when athletics becomes the tail that wags the dog. Heck, UND's President has been quoted as saying, "It's my job to make UND into a school that the hockey team can be proud of." If you know who he is paraphrasing, you should feel for him. If he was being ironic, I really respect him for that - not as much as if he actually stood up to the hockey folks m- but when you are completely powerless, sometimes irony is your only outlet. It probably won't surprise you to learn that UND's President is leaving after next year, whether he can find a new job first or not.

Finally, you cannot honor somebody against their will. It is simply not possible. If UND, or any other school, uses a tribe's name to sell crap without said tribe's permission, they are not honoring them. I'm fully aware that folks truly admire the Sioux as warriors and killers of bison (which is the reason the nickname was chosen in the first place), but admiring certain aspects of a culture is not the same as honoring it. In fact, UND's administration, fans, and alumni only honor dead Indians and apparently just wish all the others would shut the hell up.

[SoCon48]

To expound on what AmsterBison so eloquently stated-

Here's a link to the actual letters written by the individual Sioux tribes either supporting or condemning the use of the Fighting Sioux nickname (there's only one tribe that supports the use, all others have condemned it)- Tribal Statements (http://www.uiuc.edu/dialogue/und_pdf/Tribal_Statements.pdf)

I wonder if they've actually had a vote of the Sioux nation. Or is this "spokesmen" and elected officials speaking for all the Sioux.
You know like Barney Franks "speaks" for all "Massachusettsans", Jesse Helms "spoke" for all North Carolinians, and Louis Farakan "speaks" for all African Americans??
Or the Supreme Court speaks for all Americans on baby killing?
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[SoCon48]

"letters written by the individual Sioux tribes either supporting or condemning the use of the Fighting Sioux nickname (there's only one tribe that supports the use, all others have condemned it)"

OK. EASY solution for the problem. Change the name of the mascot to "The-"insert name of consenting tribe" Sioux. You know, e.g. several Apache tribes objected to the use of the Apache name but the Chiracahuas didn't, then call the mascot the "Chiracahua Apaches" or the Chiracahuas.

Hell, I might be a caucasion who objects to "Mountaineers" because they are white people with guns and liquor jugs, but that doesn't give me and a few others the right to have Mountaineers removed as ASU's mascot. :bang:

BTW, I'm 1/4 Cherokee (Eastern band) (as well as some other fraction of Creek). Both tribes are noted for being agrarian, hunters and gatherers, etc. Yet I have NEVER been offended by any teams' mascots dressed in warpaint, with tomahawks and spears.
Some people just need to quit trying to create agendas and missions and just freakin' "get over it" !!!! :bang: :bang:

[Husky Alum]

Englehart wasn't a neo-Nazi, and Mussolini made the trains run on time.

Look, I'm not here to debate the man's views, but if it looks like a duck and smells like a duck and quacks like a duck...

The Sports Illustrated Article on UND pretty much confirmed what AmsterBison said.

Dirty money is dirty money, and UND is swimming in it.

I've personally asked Northeastern to boycott playing UND in any and all voluntary athletic competitions, but its fallen on deaf ears.

[greenG]

Also, from the ESPN article:
Quote:
Fourteen schools have removed all references to Native American culture or were deemed not to have references to Native American culture as part of their athletics programs: California State-Stanislaus, Lycoming College, Winona State University, Hawaii-Manoa, Eastern Connecticut State, East Stroudsburg, Husson College, Merrimack College, Southeast Missouri State, State University of West Georgia, Stonehill College, San Diego State, Wisconsin Lutheran College and the University of North Carolina-Pembroke.
Here's SDSU's logo, direct from their web site.

http://img321.imageshack.us/img321/9353/sdsu04top015zb.gif

Many of the schools using Warriors moved from Indian motifs to Trojan-like logos, see Winona State.

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3366/livecoverage7no.gif

I'm surprised that Marquette didn't take this route when they changed nicknames years ago. Note also, that Wayne State (MI) isn't on the list. They moved from Tartars to Warriors only about 5 years ago but their logo is an European guy swinging a sword but they seem to be moving to using just a stylized W.

[DFW HOYA]

The NCAA looks foolish for this hackneyed PC behavior. One wonders if the Hibernian Club of Indiana objected to the name "Fighting Irish", would the angry leprechaun be banned, too?

One of these days, the NCAA's big brother approach will lead T.K. Weatherall and his I-A buddies to ask why they even need the NCAA anymore. A semi-pro 16 team league could secede, make its own TV deals, set its own standards, pick up a network and shoe deal, and thumb its nose at the folks up in Indianapolis. At that point, the Pandora's box is open.

[Charlie Don't Surf]

Is the FL Tribe the only one getting money?

Yes, the Seminole tribe of Florida does get a cut from FSU and loves the exposure they bring to their casinos.

Oklahoma Seminoles have different thoughts on the matter.

Interesting to see how this will all pan out especially if FSU does go ahead with the lawsuit against the NCAA.

Rival fans from Florida and Miami are already having "guess the new FSU mascot" polls on their respective message boards. Some interesting choices.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Rival fans from Florida and Miami are already having "guess the new FSU mascot" polls on their respective message boards. Some interesting choices.

The jailbirds?
The academically-ineligible?

[dungeonjoe]

maybe we need to see about this for a mascot:

http://www.cafepress.com/fightinwhite/111 (http://)


Just in jest, folks, just in jest

[star2city]

I care very little about the national nickname debate, but I do care about North Dakota. The UND situation is unbelievable and extends far beyond the nickname dispute and to the very heart of UND's mission and the definition of public trust. The jackasses who got them, and my state, into this mess should be ashamed of themselves and, frankly, I'd like to nothing better than to corner each of them individually and give them a piece of my mind. Oh well, this will have to do for now.


Sure, Tony (Amsterbison), has the best interest of NDSU at heart, but that doesn’t prevent him from tearing down anything associated with UND or the city in which in is located, Grand Forks. Check out Bisonville.com for the venom vented at UND, much of it perpetrated by Tony, who is the owner of that site. When people like Tony and no-backbone Bisonguy make egregious coments like they did about UND, Ralph Engelstad, and the Fighting Sioux, a response from a UND fan only seems fair.

In the aftermath of the 1997 flood in Grand Forks (in which 50,000 people were evacuated, the downtown burned, over $1 billion in damages occurred, and over $100 million in damage occurred on the campus of UND), Tony, revealing the state of his heart, lambasted Grand Forks and UND as welfare pariahs -scolding needy/homeless citizens for accepting money, like the $2000 / household that Joan Kroc offered, or accepting FEMA loans and trailers, or UND accepting federal grants (but it is wonderful when NDSU receives a federal grant or receives tens of millions in state development aid - i.e. Alien ). But Tony, who has lived in a Manhattan condo and Amsterdam while running Bisonville, must feel his success must validate his liberal paternal (except toward UND) views over naive North Dakotans. I know for a fact that Tony deleted his most grievous posts on Grand Forks/UND, such as wanting them to flood out again, because they were so hateful and potentiallly embarassing to NDSU.

Because UND and Grand Forks were hurting so badly as a result of the flood and fire, part of Ralph Engelstad’s rationale for donating $100 million to UND was to help in economic recovery and give the school and community a sense of hope for the future. The new arena has really helped the community change its vision of itself - from one with a bleak future to one of great possibilities.

Ralph was a collector of all World War II memorobilia, including the automobiles used by Churchill, Stalin, and Hitler. By owning Soviet WWII memorobilia, he must have been a commmunist too! He was certainly guilty of poor judgement, but Ralph also understood the political correctness so rampant in Universities.

[JBB]

Thats a nice spin, and you are equal in bile rising rhetoric, but Tony has facts on his side. All you have is a nice spin.

The arena is a device to protect gambling profits through a 20 year write off of the $100 million or so arena gift.

the management company is there to protect the investment and earn a nice profit during its 20 year management stint.

Thats about all the interest this deal has in the local economy. its tie in with the flood is just a coincidence. It was going up with or without the natural disaster.

the Alerus center is another story. An economic development project made possible through flood relief funds.

[star2city]

If you readwhat Amsterbison (Tony) or others have spouted about Ralph Engelstad, it is only fair that you read this too from a Las Vegas paper. There are two sides (at least) to every issue.-

Sunday, December 01, 2002
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2002/Dec-01-Sun-2002/news/20175500.html
COLUMN: John L. Smith
Tough, misunderstood casino boss' secret soft side ready to be revealed


When I heard that Ralph Engelstad died of cancer Tuesday at 72, I immediately thought of the old blind woman, the crippled child and the secret.
And it was then I knew I would reveal the secret that would have made Ralph cringe with embarrassment at the thought of the public knowing another side of his personality.
If you only knew Engelstad as the tough owner of the Imperial Palace and a score of other businesses, or as the eccentric who'd once thrown a Hitler-themed party and had paid the price for the indiscretion many times over, then you might find it hard to imagine he possessed a charitable heart.
Engelstad? A soft touch? Never.
Surely beneath his tough exterior was a heart of ice and a soul of leather. At least, that's what he would have you believe.
Ralph Engelstad was one of the most enigmatic, interesting and misunderstood men to ever set foot in Las Vegas. He had a reputation as a cutthroat housing contractor and entrepreneur, a Minnesota-born Norwegian who elbowed his way onto the Strip in 1971 with the purchase of the 9-acre Flamingo Capri at a time Las Vegas Boulevard was run by aging racket bosses, transplanted gamblers and early corporate cartels. There wasn't much room for self-made millionaires with calloused hands.
By 1979, Ralph had built the 650-room Imperial Palace. As his own contractor, he supervised the job from the first concrete pour to the first slot pull. By the time he stopped adding on, the IP had grown to 2,700 rooms and had emerged as one of the largest hotels in the world. It is considered the second-largest independently owned hotel in existence, with heavy emphasis on "independent."
Ralph was nothing if not independent. It comes as no surprise to anyone who knew his background that, as a business major at the University of North Dakota, he was a member of the hockey team in an era when players wouldn't have dreamed of wearing protective helmets or masks. Ralph was hockey goalie-without-a-mask tough.
But he also had another side.
A few years ago, I wrote a column about a legally blind elderly woman named Lauretta Holmes, who had taken it upon herself to care for Janet Louis Barrow, daughter of the late heavyweight champion, Joe Louis. A childhood near-drowning accident had rendered Janet an invalid who suffered from cerebral palsy, and Lauretta was overwhelmed by the physical and financial burden.
The column generated an outpouring of help, but no one gave more than Ralph. It was hardly the first time he'd quietly come forward to lend a hand, but it was a side of him few locals knew.
"I read your column about the Louis girl. I'd like to help her," he said. "As long as you agree not to tell anyone where it came from. I don't want any publicity." Then he laughed a little. "I've had enough publicity to last a lifetime."
It would have made a great story, and it certainly wouldn't have hurt Engelstad's battered public persona, but I agreed to keep the confidence.
It was a few days after Thanksgiving when I dropped by Lauretta's apartment and handed her the check. We went to Janet's bedroom to share the good news.
"Oh, Janet," Lauretta cried at the girl's bedside. "Oh, what a Merry Christmas we'll have."
And they did, thanks to tough old Ralph Engelstad.
He didn't hold any news conferences, but Engelstad made a point of hiring the disabled at the Imperial Palace and in 1991 was named National Employer of the Year for his promotion of handicapped employees.
Of course, not even a man with Ralph's low profile could avoid making headlines after donating $104 million for a new hockey arena at his alma mater. He gave another $10 million to build a hockey arena in his hometown of Thief River Falls, Minn.
Truth is, Ralph and his wife, Betty, over the years have given many millions to charities and civic causes of all sizes. They've done so quietly, and for the most part out of the media spotlight. Ralph wouldn't have it otherwise.
After all, he was hard-as-stone Ralph Engelstad. He had an image to maintain.
And then someone goes and spoils it.
Your secret's out now, Ralph. Rest easy.
John L. Smith's column appears Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday and Sunday. E-mail him at [email protected] or call 383-0295.

[star2city]

Thats a nice spin, and you are equal in bile rising rhetoric, but Tony has facts on his side. All you have is a nice spin.

The arena is a device to protect gambling profits through a 20 year write off of the $100 million or so arena gift.

the management company is there to protect the investment and earn a nice profit during its 20 year management stint.

Thats about all the interest this deal has in the local economy. its tie in with the flood is just a coincidence. It was going up with or without the natural disaster.

the Alerus center is another story. An economic development project made possible through flood relief funds.

Yeah, this coming from JBB, the #1 UND hater on the planet. Bisonville.com proves it with your rhetoric. The above post proves it again, no truth in any of those statements.

Yet you continually and proudly post lies that are obscenely false without being obscene to the average reader. Jeaslousy is a very destructive thing, JBB. The lack of a decent hockey/basketball arena at NDSU is a core of this jealousy, isn't it ?

God have mercy on your soul, John B. Bjornson.

[JBB]

Everybody loves Ralph, you know that star2city, and the arena deal is fine, the system is designed to promote this sort of thing, but dont try to sentimentalize any of it. After all, its the naming issue thats being discussed.

I really dont see this as much of a hit at all. Any of the 18 teams can still keep their nicknames but wont be able to identify with them during NCAA sponsored championship events events. Also, they wont be able to host playoff events.

Obviouslly, the biggest hit is for teams in playoff sports. They will never be able to host. For Bowl Championship teams they will always be the visitor at a neutral site.

This will hurt hockey at UND but their DII football never drew well for the playoffs anyway.

[youwouldno]

The NCAA also boycotts South Carolina because there is a Civil War memorial on the grounds of the statehouse. They're a bunch of politically-correct fools, and everyone with a brain knows it.

I don't see rural whites whining about App St. And, actually, I don't see that many native Americans protested college mascots. They are apparently smarter than the NCAA leadership, which is indeed mostly elite white guys, and realize that the names are an honor to the fighting spirit of the tribes. It certainly isn't mocking-- why would a school mock itself?

[AmsterBison]

Man, star2city, if anything I wrote is incorrect, please tell me what it was so I can apologize. If not, well, I can see why you might think that your only response would be to go after me. Have fun with that.

[Gil Dobie]

Ralph Ralph Ralph

Ralph Engelstad sent a letter to the President of UND and the ND State Board of Higher Eduducation prior the boards 8-0 vote to keep the nickname.
Engelstad sends letter
(http://www.illinimedia.com/di/jan01/jan22/news/campus01.shtml)
The Letter (http://www.und.edu/org/bridges/dearchuck.html)

He may have collected WWII items, but to celebrate Hitler :nonono2:
Man behind the money (http://www.undnews.com/prairie.htm)
"first rose to national prominence in the 1980s when he threw parties honouring Adolf Hitler at his Las Vegas casino, the Imperial Palace. The casino printed bumper stickers that said "Hitler was Right."

I have no objection personally to the Sioux nickname, but I would not take money from a person who celebrated Hitler..........

[EPJr]

Interesting... I never thought of them. Are there some groups that find W&M offensive?

http://www.coasttocoasttickets.com/images/ncaab_william%26marytribe.jpg

What year did they change from Indians to Tribe? I mean, I can see how this is offensive:

http://www.dgblake.com/basketball/ebayWmMary.jpg

Actually I found thier old "indian" mascot to be very hot. They used to have a buxom young lady in buckskin cavorting on the sidelines.

BTW: The Red Raiders of both Texas Tech and Colgate used to have Indian mascots.

[Pard94]

...I can certainly see how "Redskins" might offend. But why is it offensive to use such terms as Braves or Seminoles and such? Seems to me it almost pays homage to Native Americans so long as sterotypes are not enforced (i.e. tomahawk chops and the like).

Shouldn't we also get rid of Spartans so as not to offend Greeks? And as an American I'm a little put off by Patriots and Minutemen being used as mascots. We better just stick to animals...oh wait...PETA. How about plants and fungi? Are they OK?

[hapapp]

UNC-Pembroke was given an exemption because it was started as a Native American school. However, only 20% of its enrollment today is comprised of Native Americans, mostly Lumbee from the surrounding community. The Lumbee support the use of the Braves as the school's nickname. UNCP actually changed the team mascot several years back to the red-tailed hawk.

http://www.uncp.edu/uncp/about/traditions.htm

[bisonguy]

Looks like the decision by the NCAA might be having an impact on other "championships":

Div. I-A football takes up mascot issue (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/2005-08-07-bcs-mascot-issue_x.htm)


By Steve Wieberg, USA TODAY
College football's Bowl Championship Series will weigh in next month on whether to adopt new NCAA restrictions on schools' use of American Indian mascots and imagery.
Big 12 Conference Commissioner and BCS coordinator Kevin Weiberg said the commissioners of all 11 major football-playing conferences and Notre Dame athletics director Kevin White would "review" the issue during BCS meetings Sept. 19-20 in Chicago.

"It seems to me this is a question for all of the bowl games, not just those that are part of the BCS," Weiberg told USA TODAY via e-mail during the weekend. (Related item: NCAA bans Indian mascots during postseason)

The NCAA forced the issue Friday, culminating four years of its own debate. The association's top-level Executive Committee barred schools from using Indian nicknames, mascots or logos deemed "hostile and abusive" at any of its championships. That covers all but Division I-A football, where the 28-bowl postseason — including a BCS-staged, No. 1-vs.-2 game for the national title — is largely run by the commissioners...............

[TxSt02]

UNC-Pembroke was given an exemption because it was started as a Native American school. However, only 20% of its enrollment today is comprised of Native Americans, mostly Lumbee from the surrounding community. The Lumbee support the use of the Braves as the school's nickname. UNCP actually changed the team mascot several years back to the red-tailed hawk.

http://www.uncp.edu/uncp/about/traditions.htm

Well I guess their is actually a difference in mascot and nickname...

Our nickname is the Bobcats however out mascot's name is Boko...

[TexasTerror]

Gov Jeb Bush knows what's right and he says it's a slap in the face to Florida State, the state of Florida and the Seminole tribe in Florida. I like what he said....

"I think it's offensive to native Americans ... the Seminole Indian tribe who support the traditions of FSU," Bush said on his way into a Cabinet meeting. "I think they insult those people by telling them, 'No, no, you're not smart enough to understand this. You should be feeling really horrible about this.' It's ridiculous."

I am no big fan of Jeb, but he does make very valid points and I wish the folks at Florida State, the best of luck!

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/football/ncaa/specials/preview/2005/08/09/bc.fl.floridast.seminol.ap/index.html?cnn=yes

[griz37]

I was listening to the Dan Patrick show, hosted by Eric Casilius today and he had on the woman who is VP of Minority Affairs (or some crap along those lines) for the NCAA. Anways he asked her why didn't they find Notre Dames fighting Irish discriminatory and do away with it. She basically said that nobody had complained about that one yet, but if they did they would have to consider looking into. I just about choked. Are these stiff morons serious? By the way on a side note, what has happened to DP he hasn't been on the radio in about a month?

[UAalum72]

I don't have a dog in this fight but I find the 'fighting Irish, ban animals and vegetables' argument pretty unconvincing.

I heard one NA person say it wasn't so much what the teams called themselves as what their opponents did with the name (scalp 'em, massacre 'em, etc.)

Similar to Notre Dame, who refused to play at Nebraska for 60 or so years after the Lincoln newspapers ran stories about the 'bricklaying mackerel-snappers' and worse. Of course, America's way beyond that now, aren't we.

[Gil Dobie]

I heard one NA person say it wasn't so much what the teams called themselves as what their opponents did with the name (scalp 'em, massacre 'em, etc.)

"Sioux Suck" is a common term used by fans playing the University of North Dakota. On the otherhand, UND fans have made up t-shirts showing an American Indian fornicating with a Bison.

[FightinBluHen51]

And get this! This morning, I caught on the Baltimore sports report that PETA has asked South Carolina and Jacksonville St. to change their mascots because of the fact that they are the "GameCocks." Absolutely rediculious!

[UAalum72]

"Sioux Suck" is a common term used by fans playing the University of North Dakota. On the otherhand, UND fans have made up t-shirts showing an American Indian fornicating with a Bison.
I doubt the actual bison were offended. I know my dog doesn't care if I call him fat and worthless.

Other than the crackpots at PETA, has anyone seriously mentioned removing animal mascots except the anti-PC crowd using it for their straw-man arguments against the those who would remove Chief Wahoo from Cleveland?

[Gil Dobie]

I doubt the actual bison were offended. I know my dog doesn't care if I call him fat and worthless.

Other than the crackpots at PETA, has anyone seriously mentioned removing animal mascots except the anti-PC crowd using it for their straw-man arguments against the those who would remove Chief Wahoo from Cleveland?

My point wasn't the Bison being offended, but the disrespect coming from the UND fans towards the Sioux.