The end of football at Missouri State?

[bonarae]

Maybe GodHelpTheBears and/or MSUDuo can come back for us and give his opinion similar to that of the university president's; link below.

https://www.news-leader.com/story/sports/college/msu/2019/08/01/missouri-state-university-football-program-future-budget-funding/1697784001/

[JSUSoutherner]

Why don't they just fire their coach?

[Professor Chaos]

Why don't they just fire their coach?
I like Steckel and think he's a good coach but their problems are systemic. No coach is going to win their with the lack of support they have. The problem is in order to get more support they need to win and it's awfully tough to climb the ladder in the MVFC right now.

[ST_Lawson]

From the article:

Smart said. "I bet there's not a single major state university that doesn't have football..."

Vermont and Alaska would like a word with him.

While I hate to see anyone drop football, I don't think it's the worst option for them. With the current makeup of the conference, and without drastic changes, I don't see them finishing above .500 for quite a while. If they're ok with that, then...ok.

[Outsider1]

Why don't they just fire their coach?

I think all of us initially asked that question, but I kinda agree with Professor that the larger issues at play make it more than just a coaching problem.

"Before taking over at MSU, Steckel helped Mizzou go from 4-7 in his first year to playing in the Cotton Bowl and Citrus Bowl in each of his last two seasons. " Steckel has proved he can win.

"Steckel has attempted to promote the football program since his arrival at Missouri State. Of course, he has his “Bear Up” slogan — a slogan that he says means “to encourage and support.” He is active on social media and in-person supporting other university programs, both athletic and educational." Steckel has proven he is working hard off the field directly with fans.

"Smart said Steckel played a role in helping the university land a multi-million-dollar gift from Robert Gourley toward the expansion of Glass Hall — the university’s College of Business building." Steckel is doing his part to help bring in money.

Would switching conferences be an option? Would it be a good move even if it was? Between winning and fan support, something may have to be done in order to get that ball rolling.

[mvfcfan]

They just renovated their stadium in 2014. Football is not going anywhere at MSU. People thought that INST should drop football and that we'd never win (we had 24 and 33 game losing streaks back to back). MSU isn't even close to being that bad. They might not win the conference anytime soon, but that doesn't mean that they can't compete for the playoffs. Heck they might compete this year. They made noise for a while last season. Who knows? Indiana State was picked last, last season, and finished essentially 4th (tied for 3rd with UNI) and barely missed the playoffs.

[walliver]

From the article:


Vermont and Alaska would like a word with him.

While I hate to see anyone drop football, I don't think it's the worst option for them. With the current makeup of the conference, and without drastic changes, I don't see them finishing above .500 for quite a while. If they're ok with that, then...ok.

I guess it depends on how you define "major". Are Vermont and Alaska "major" schools? Is the University of California-San Francisco not a "major" school? Why is a school which is much larger than Clemson playing poorly in a FCS conference?

Most of the major public research universities play in the P5 and draw very large crowds. Asserting that you are a major school by playing FCS doesn't fit that model.
If football works for MSU they should keep the team. If it doesn't work, they should move on. That being said, the only decent reason I could see for eliminating football would be if they had the opportunity to move up to a more prestigious conference, but I don't see the Big East, Big 12, or B1G calling anytime soon.
Maybe they should move to the MAC where poor attendance is the norm.

[clenz]

I like Steckel and think he's a good coach but their problems are systemic. No coach is going to win their with the lack of support they have. The problem is in order to get more support they need to win and it's awfully tough to climb the ladder in the MVFC right now.
This here.

Terry Allen was the winningest coach in Gateway/MVFC history. He took over a Missouri State - in the Gateway/MVFC and couldn't win there. TA knows how to coach.

I've had some talks with a former MSU beat writer about the situation down there. Let's just say football will never succeed down there. If JSUSoutherner wants a fun story about TA and Missouri State I might be willing to share it with him, but it's now one I'm going to share here.


Wichita State doesn't have football - a university just up the road from Missouri State. One that Missouri State could easily emulate without football.

[DFW HOYA]

That being said, the only decent reason I could see for eliminating football would be if they had the opportunity to move up to a more prestigious conference, but I don't see the Big East, Big 12, or B1G calling anytime soon.
Maybe they should move to the MAC where poor attendance is the norm.

Eliminating football is not a condition for the Big East--it is not a sponsored sport even though four of the 11 (>2020) Big East teams field a team.

The premise of this thread is a bit exaggerated given that the MSU president is publicly supportive of football. And if Indiana State can turn it around, MSU certainly can.

[clenz]

They just renovated their stadium in 2014. Football is not going anywhere at MSU. People thought that INST should drop football and that we'd never win (we had 24 and 33 game losing streaks back to back). MSU isn't even close to being that bad. They might not win the conference anytime soon, but that doesn't mean that they can't compete for the playoffs. Heck they might compete this year. They made noise for a while last season. Who knows? Indiana State was picked last, last season, and finished essentially 4th (tied for 3rd with UNI) and barely missed the playoffs.
Missouri State hasn't made the playoffs since 1990

They have 6 seasons over 500 since then. Only 1 of those 6 had more than 6 wins. 4 of those 6 came between 1991 and 1996

Hell, before their 19-6 stretch in 89 and 90 they had just 15 winning seasons in the 40 years prior to that - and only 3 of those had more than 6 wins

Football in Springfield, while lacking those losing streaks, is every bit as bad or worse than it has been in Terra Haute

[Daytripper]

Join the OVC. It works geographically and they would have a better chance of being competitive.

[ST_Lawson]

I guess it depends on how you define "major". Are Vermont and Alaska "major" schools? Is the University of California-San Francisco not a "major" school? Why is a school which is much larger than Clemson playing poorly in a FCS conference?

I assumed he meant it as the "major" (like...top 1 or 2 public or "flagship") schools in each state. Vermont and AK-Anchorage are essentially the "major" schools in their respective states. UC-San Fran is not what I'd consider a "flagship" in CA...that'd be probably UCLA and Cal (UC Berkeley)...but maybe that's just how it feels because they have P5-level FBS football.

I guess I could see him meaning "major universities" that are public, in which case, VT and AK are not really "major" schools in the grand scheme of the country/world. Either way it's just semantics and doesn't really impact the discussion.

[Bisonator]

Why single out FB? Are they good at anything? I mean when's the last time they won the MVC in BB?

[clenz]

Why single out FB? Are they good at anything? I mean when's the last time they won the MVC in BB?
They are preseason favorites this year. Just signed a 4* kid.

Last won the regular season title in 2010-2011 but almost always a top half finisher. Though they are thought to underachieve based on individual talent levels.

They are almost always a top 3 womens basketball program, volleyball program
Went 40-17 in baseball last season and won the conference. Won the league in 2017 at 43-20, 15 at 49-12, 3rd in 13, 2nd in 12, won the league in 09, 2nd in 08 and 06 3rd in 04. Their coaches has 1300 career wins which is second in the 113 year history of the MVC.

Just started womens tennis in 2014 and are already top 3 in the conference and real close to breaking through to the top 2
Top swim/dive team in the conference


They are very good across the board - even their worst teams aren't bottom of the conference, they finish mid pack to top half. Football is the only sport that is truly just horrible.

Their basketball program takes a hit because the financial drain football puts on funding across the board. They hold onto coaches far too long because of buy outs being too high.

[Laker]

They are almost always a top 3 womens basketball program, volleyball program
Went 40-17 in baseball last season and won the conference. Won the league in 2017 at 43-20, 15 at 49-12, 3rd in 13, 2nd in 12, won the league in 09, 2nd in 08 and 06 3rd in 04. Their coaches has 1300 career wins which is second in the 113 year history of the MVC

Their women knocked off host Iowa State to win the first and second round, and lost of tough game to Stanford in the regional last year.

[POD Knows]

Why single out FB? Are they good at anything? I mean when's the last time they won the MVC in BB?They beat us a couple times in recent memory in MBB.

[clenz]

Their women knocked off host Iowa State to win the first and second round, and lost of tough game to Stanford in the regional last year.
Lost their HC after that. Will be interesting to see if they can sustain.

I know the retort on this board is "yeah but only football matters and maybe MBB too" but MSU has above averges to really ****ing good non major programs and facilities that dwarf 99% of the FCS. The fact they aren't better in football and MBB is nuts.

[Laker]

Lost their HC after that. Will be interesting to see if they can sustain.

I remember watching Kelly Jolly Turner play at Tennessee, coach at NC State- get fired, go to MO State and now return to Tennessee. I don't know a thing about Amaka Agugua Hamilton, the new coach.

[Redbird 4th & short]

Maybe GodHelpTheBears and/or MSUDuo can come back for us and give his opinion similar to that of the university president's; link below.

https://www.news-leader.com/story/sports/college/msu/2019/08/01/missouri-state-university-football-program-future-budget-funding/1697784001/

Wow, no thanks for the link ... Painful memory for ISUr fans ... but give them credit, they came out very inspired in 1st half and had us on our heels. They were coming off trouncing NAU by 32 .. that NAU was viewed as top 25 team at time having made playoffs in 2017, then beating FBS UTEP in opener, and lost to EWU by just 5 in week 2 before MoST destroyed them in week 3. MoST was top 25 for a few weeks early on, but eventually uunraveled. MoST was our WTF happened game for the year, but they looked very inspired and well prepared that day, and were ranked top 25 for a few weeks early on ... we were just flat that day. might have been reading too many press clippings after handling Colorado St failry easily .... and this was well before Spack shaved the stache, so no excuses !!!!

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Sounds like 'normal' to me, but I'm from Bucknell.

[JSUSoutherner]

Hey, if Austin Peay can turn themselves around, so can MSU. They just have to want it.

[lionsrking2]

Hey, if Austin Peay can turn themselves around, so can MSU. They just have to want it.

Nicholls State has been to the playoffs two years in a row and should be good again in 2019. With the right vision and leadership, anything is possible, anywhere in the country.

[Bisonoline]

Hey, if Austin Peay can turn themselves around, so can MSU. They just have to want it.

They really dont wanna. Previous coach found that out.

[Daytripper]

Nicholls State has been to the playoffs two years in a row and should be good again in 2019. With the right vision and leadership, anything is possible, anywhere in the country.

This. Nicholls was a SLC doormat for years. Now they are pushing people around. Correct about vision and leadership. It starts at the top.

[KPSUL]

From the article:


Vermont and Alaska would like a word with him.

While I hate to see anyone drop football, I don't think it's the worst option for them. With the current makeup of the conference, and without drastic changes, I don't see them finishing above .500 for quite a while. If they're ok with that, then...ok.

As well as VCU and George Mason in Virginia.

[Reign of Terrier]

The uncomfortable reality for many here is that this is life for many teams in the FCS who are unsuccessful for a long period of time. Something like 80% of programs play in half-empty stadiums. For many programs like Wofford/Furman, this doesn't matter because the quality of the game is decent and they see athletics as supporting their overall academic purpose.

It's pretty easy to build a winning program at the FCS level just by virtue of the number of teams that have won/been very competitive their conference relatively quickly and made it to at least the quarterfinals (CSU, SEMO twice now, a handful of CAA teams, UC Davis, Kennesaw state, etc). The fact is, recruiting is almost not a factor at this level because teams turn around so quickly. Coaching is most of it.

I imagine these problems are similar in all conferences of FCS, but what makes Missouri State unique is probably their travel budget and the toughness of the MVFC. Even if the toughness of the CAA/Big Sky is similar at the top as the MVFC, you don't play everybody in those conference (even if the MVFC only plays 8 of 9). That makes it really hard to build anything. As others have alluded to, the OVC is a much better fit to built a program long term.

[clenz]

The uncomfortable reality for many here is that this is life for many teams in the FCS who are unsuccessful for a long period of time. Something like 80% of programs play in half-empty stadiums. For many programs like Wofford/Furman, this doesn't matter because the quality of the game is decent and they see athletics as supporting their overall academic purpose.

It's pretty easy to build a winning program at the FCS level just by virtue of the number of teams that have won/been very competitive their conference relatively quickly and made it to at least the quarterfinals (CSU, SEMO twice now, a handful of CAA teams, UC Davis, Kennesaw state, etc). The fact is, recruiting is almost not a factor at this level because teams turn around so quickly. Coaching is most of it.

I imagine these problems are similar in all conferences of FCS, but what makes Missouri State unique is probably their travel budget and the toughness of the MVFC. Even if the toughness of the CAA/Big Sky is similar at the top as the MVFC, you don't play everybody in those conference (even if the MVFC only plays 8 of 9). That makes it really hard to build anything. As others have alluded to, the OVC is a much better fit to built a program long term.
It's about WAAAY more than coaching

Missouri State had Terry Allen - who was the winningest coach in UNI and MVFC/Gateway history when he left UNI - for 9 years. He didn't forget how to coach between his time at UNI and Missouri State. He went 75-25 (40-7) in Gateway play in 8 years at UNI. Missed the playoffs only in his first year, where he went 8-3 (4-2) and finished 2nd in the conference. In his final 6 years he made the at least the quarters 4 times and the semis twice - and if not for Moss in 1996 maybe UNI has a title (though Montana still probably beats UNI in that title game). In 9 years at Missouri State he went 37-64 (25-44)

Dave Steckle didn't forget how to coach a winning program during his trip from Columbia, MO to Springfield, MO.

Thee issues at MSU are deep and can't/won't be fixed. If they are fixed it will be for no more than 2 or 3 years and that coach will be poached and things will go right back.

MSU has every advantage - these are the 2017 numbers, the most recent available

2nd in Undergrad enrollment in the MVFC


Illinois State University
17,139


Missouri State University-Springfield
15,276


North Dakota State University-Main Campus
10,737


Southern Illinois University-Carbondale
9,412


Indiana State University
9,353


University of Northern Iowa
8,955


Youngstown State University
8,648


South Dakota State University
8,409


Western Illinois University
6,668


University of South Dakota
4,880




They are right at average, and middle of the conference, in operating expenses - and outside of NDSU (shockingly the clear outlier) spend above average


Institution Name
Operating Expenses - Football


North Dakota State University-Main Campus
$1,060,620


Southern Illinois University-Carbondale
$812,046


Indiana State University
$741,526


University of Northern Iowa
$737,967


Illinois State University
$710,473


Missouri State University-Springfield
$681,359


Youngstown State University
$670,052


University of South Dakota
$596,715


Western Illinois University
$559,269


South Dakota State University
$536,221


AVERAGE
$710,625





Youngstown State would have the same type of travel budget constraints holding them back but they have had a fair amount of success since joining the conference in 97.

They have every advantage compared to anyone across the entire athletic department - sans NDSU and football. This isn't a coaching thing. This isn't a recruiting thing. It's not a "middle of no where and no fans thing". It's an institutional level of incompetence across the board in regards to football.

Missouri State's facilities are, across the athletic department, the best in the MVC/MVFC. They have facilities on part with the top of the G5

Football
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Missouri-State-University-Plaster-Stadium_South_Endzone.jpg/1920px-Missouri-State-University-Plaster-Stadium_South_Endzone.jpg


Basketball
http://grfx.cstv.com/schools/mosu/graphics/facilityweb/JQHWebLarge.jpg
https://dehayf5mhw1h7.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/sites/1024/2019/01/05210017/Valparaiso-vs.-MSU-Bears-1-1-5-19.jpg

Volleyball/WBB
https://missouristate.info/images/buildings/20046-4793-HSC.jpg


Baseball
http://grfx.cstv.com/schools/mosu/graphics/facilityweb/HammonsFieldWebLarge.jpg


Softball - hosts NAIA national championships and a bunch of non-D1 conference tournaments
http://grfx.cstv.com/schools/mosu/graphics/facilityweb/KillianWebLarge.jpg

Soccer/Field Hockey/Track and Field - video board and track surface have been replaced and upgraded since this photo
https://missouristate.info/resize/remote/www.missouristate.edu/assets/longrangeplan/promises-stewardship-facilities-slideshow-07.jpg?width=700

Tennis
https://1nhf703zl1pa2xihgk1gwt71-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/nov-2013-1.png
https://thumbor.springfieldmo.org/unsafe/800x600/filters:fill(black)/https://res.cloudinary.com/simpleview/image/upload/c_fit,w_800,h_600/crm/springfield/CooperTennis.Lasers.fullhouse.20130-1542859a5056a34_1542874c-5056-a348-3a27864dc054f99d.jpg
http://parkboard.org/ImageRepository/Path?filePath=%2FDocuments%5C13%5C70%5C148%2F_MG_6 559.png

Swimming
https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/the-standard.org/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/c/ef/cef043e6-6356-11e2-a5d0-001a4bcf6878/50fc79c6742ad.image.jpg

Weight facility - 8,000 square feet of this type of facility
http://missouristatebears.com/images/2016/11/2/IMG_0212.JPG



http://image.cdnllnwnl.xosnetwork.com/pics33/1024/TP/TPWLFFAHQIBQQOT.20180607140606.jpg
http://image.cdnllnwnl.xosnetwork.com/pics33/1024/TP/TPWLFFAHQIBQQOT.20180607140606.jpg

[POD Knows]

It's about WAAAY more than coaching

Missouri State had Terry Allen - who was the winningest coach in UNI and MVFC/Gateway history when he left UNI - for 9 years. He didn't forget how to coach between his time at UNI and Missouri State. He went 75-25 (40-7) in Gateway play in 8 years at UNI. Missed the playoffs only in his first year, where he went 8-3 (4-2) and finished 2nd in the conference. In his final 6 years he made the at least the quarters 4 times and the semis twice - and if not for Moss in 1996 maybe UNI has a title (though Montana still probably beats UNI in that title game). In 9 years at Missouri State he went 37-64 (25-44)

Dave Steckle didn't forget how to coach a winning program during his trip from Columbia, MO to Springfield, MO.

Thee issues at MSU are deep and can't/won't be fixed. If they are fixed it will be for no more than 2 or 3 years and that coach will be poached and things will go right back.

MSU has every advantage - these are the 2017 numbers, the most recent available

2nd in Undergrad enrollment in the MVFC


Illinois State University
17,139


Missouri State University-Springfield
15,276


North Dakota State University-Main Campus
10,737


Southern Illinois University-Carbondale
9,412


Indiana State University
9,353


University of Northern Iowa
8,955


Youngstown State University
8,648


South Dakota State University
8,409


Western Illinois University
6,668


University of South Dakota
4,880




They are right at average, and middle of the conference, in operating expenses - and outside of NDSU (shockingly the clear outlier) spend above average


Institution Name
Operating Expenses - Football


North Dakota State University-Main Campus
$1,060,620


Southern Illinois University-Carbondale
$812,046


Indiana State University
$741,526


University of Northern Iowa
$737,967


Illinois State University
$710,473


Missouri State University-Springfield
$681,359


Youngstown State University
$670,052


University of South Dakota
$596,715


Western Illinois University
$559,269


South Dakota State University
$536,221


AVERAGE
$710,625





Youngstown State would have the same type of travel budget constraints holding them back but they have had a fair amount of success since joining the conference in 97.

They have every advantage compared to anyone across the entire athletic department - sans NDSU and football. This isn't a coaching thing. This isn't a recruiting thing. It's not a "middle of no where and no fans thing". It's an institutional level of incompetence across the board in regards to football.

Missouri State's facilities are, across the athletic department, the best in the MVC/MVFC. They have facilities on part with the top of the G5

Football
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Missouri-State-University-Plaster-Stadium_South_Endzone.jpg/1920px-Missouri-State-University-Plaster-Stadium_South_Endzone.jpg


Basketball
http://grfx.cstv.com/schools/mosu/graphics/facilityweb/JQHWebLarge.jpg
https://dehayf5mhw1h7.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/sites/1024/2019/01/05210017/Valparaiso-vs.-MSU-Bears-1-1-5-19.jpg

Volleyball/WBB
https://missouristate.info/images/buildings/20046-4793-HSC.jpg


Baseball
http://grfx.cstv.com/schools/mosu/graphics/facilityweb/HammonsFieldWebLarge.jpg


Softball - hosts NAIA national championships and a bunch of non-D1 conference tournaments
http://grfx.cstv.com/schools/mosu/graphics/facilityweb/KillianWebLarge.jpg

Soccer/Field Hockey/Track and Field - video board and track surface have been replaced and upgraded since this photo
https://missouristate.info/resize/remote/www.missouristate.edu/assets/longrangeplan/promises-stewardship-facilities-slideshow-07.jpg?width=700

Tennis
https://1nhf703zl1pa2xihgk1gwt71-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/nov-2013-1.png
https://thumbor.springfieldmo.org/unsafe/800x600/filters:fill(black)/https://res.cloudinary.com/simpleview/image/upload/c_fit,w_800,h_600/crm/springfield/CooperTennis.Lasers.fullhouse.20130-1542859a5056a34_1542874c-5056-a348-3a27864dc054f99d.jpg
http://parkboard.org/ImageRepository/Path?filePath=%2FDocuments%5C13%5C70%5C148%2F_MG_6 559.png

Swimming
https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/the-standard.org/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/c/ef/cef043e6-6356-11e2-a5d0-001a4bcf6878/50fc79c6742ad.image.jpg

Weight facility - 8,000 square feet of this type of facility
http://missouristatebears.com/images/2016/11/2/IMG_0212.JPG



http://image.cdnllnwnl.xosnetwork.com/pics33/1024/TP/TPWLFFAHQIBQQOT.20180607140606.jpg
http://image.cdnllnwnl.xosnetwork.com/pics33/1024/TP/TPWLFFAHQIBQQOT.20180607140606.jpg
They must have photoshopped those fans in the stands for that football pic. :D

[clenz]

Nah - they have the ability (or used too at least) to draw really well.

They live in a top 100ish metro in the US and one of the fastest growing - it's more than doubled in size in my life time and by 40k in the last decade. Second largest population base in the MVFC - and the one a head of them (Youngstown) is going backwards

MVFC MSA ranks


Rank
Institution Name
Pop
Growth


105
Youngstown State University
538,952
-4.74


115
Missouri State University-Springfield
466,978
6.93


190
North Dakota State University-Main Campus
245,471
17.58%


229
Illinois State University
188,597
1.32


249
Indiana State University
169,275
-1.57


250
University of Northern Iowa
169,659
1.1


318
Southern Illinois University-Carbondale
124,475
-1.66





Notice I didn't include SDSU, USD and WIU. None of them actually belong to a MSA.

The closest one to SDSU and USD is Sioux Falls which is 185th at 265,653 (+16.38%) and WIU is Davenport/Moline which is 141 at 381,451 (.46%). However, to put them on that list starts to play a dangerous game (even if those would be the home MSA.

I won't look at anyone else, but if we extend MSA's to include anything an hour to an hour and a half away UNI picks up the Cedar Rapids MSA, Iowa City MSA and the Dubuque MSA



Cedar Falls/Waterloo
169,659


Cedar Rapids
272,295


Iowa City
173,401


Dubuque
96,854


Total
712,209




That would put UNI in the 81st largest MSA in the county. and butting right up to the Des Moines MSA (our largest alumni location) which is 83rd in the nation at over 680k and right up next to the Davenport/Moline MSA and their 382k people. That's now how it works.

Anyway - Springfield has the people. They have the money. They have the facilities. They don't have institutional leadership

[ST_Lawson]

Nah - they have the ability (or used too at least) to draw really well.

They live in a top 100ish metro in the US and one of the fastest growing - it's more than doubled in size in my life time and by 40k in the last decade. Second largest population base in the MVFC - and the one a head of them (Youngstown) is going backwards...

A few years ago, I did a population ring check of the number of people within a 20 mile radius of the schools in the FCS. The data is a couple of years old, but it should give a good idea of the "local population" and includes the schools not in a MSA.
Youngstown State - 613,208
Missouri State - 311,815
Indiana State - 172,226
North Dakota State - 167,177
Illinois State - 163,061
Northern Iowa - 162,573
Southern Illinois - 141,073
North Dakota (joining in 2020) - 74,231
Western Illinois - 43,629
South Dakota State - 34,387
South Dakota - 28,690

[clenz]

A few years ago, I did a population ring check of the number of people within a 20 mile radius of the schools in the FCS. The data is a couple of years old, but it should give a good idea of the "local population" and includes the schools not in a MSA.

Youngstown State -
613,208
Missouri State - 311,815
Indiana State - 172,226
North Dakota State - 167,177

Illinois State -
163,061

Northern Iowa -
162,573

Southern Illinois -
141,073
North Dakota (joining in 2020) -
74,231


Western Illinois -
43,629

South Dakota State -
34,387

South Dakota -
28,690

Which are probably better numbers than MSAs because MSAs take up counties and counties of space. I just didn't want to do the work to set the miles and pull the populations. I Think looking at the direct city/metro - like you did - is a better measure.


I know SDSU/USD fans are going to be rather upset at the idea of leaving Sioux Falls of, but as I showed with UNI if we add that kind of distance things skew real fast.

The reality is YSU an MSU are the outliers on the high end and WIU/USD/SDSU on the lower end.

The MVC (I now not MVFC) is almost all in the mid 100k range outside of Valpo, Drake and Missouri State

[ST_Lawson]

Which are probably better numbers than MSAs because MSAs take up counties and counties of space. I just didn't want to do the work to set the miles and pull the populations. I Think looking at the direct city/metro - like you did - is a better measure.


I know SDSU/USD fans are going to be rather upset at the idea of leaving Sioux Falls of, but as I showed with UNI if we add that kind of distance things skew real fast.

The reality is YSU an MSU are the outliers on the high end and WIU/USD/SDSU on the lower end.

The MVC (I now not MVFC) is almost all in the mid 100k range outside of Valpo, Drake and Missouri State

Yeah, obviously every situation is a little different. Some schools don't really pull any fans from outside of a short distance from the stadium...some pull folks from an hour away...meanwhile Montana and NDSU fans are driving 6 hours each direction for weekend games.
When I put together my spreadsheet, I initially started to use MSA's, but quickly realized that many of the smaller ones aren't in one, and some aren't even really in "towns"...they're like...university in the middle of nowhere and a few houses and stores popped up around it.

As for the MVC, Loyola has a pretty high population in their immediate area too (a lot more competition as well, though).

[clenz]

I forgot about Loyola.

Damn private schools always messing things up

Loyola has like 10 million people at their disposal (and draw 2800)
Valpo is in a podunk ass town in NW Indiana that is equivalent to Brookings. But they are a half hour from Gary (not that anyone wants to claim Gary) and thus they are the very extreme outer edge of Chicago in a strange way

[Reign of Terrier]

<clenz's long post>
http://image.cdnllnwnl.xosnetwork.com/pics33/1024/TP/TPWLFFAHQIBQQOT.20180607140606.jpg
http://image.cdnllnwnl.xosnetwork.com/pics33/1024/TP/TPWLFFAHQIBQQOT.20180607140606.jpg

My point about coaching was more about the rest of the FCS than the MVFC and if they switch conferences maybe they're more likely to be successful (though it isn't guaranteed). It takes more in the MVFC to be successful, obviously. But I see what you're saying with the rest of your post.

[clenz]

My point about coaching was more about the rest of the FCS than the MVFC and if they switch conferences maybe they're more likely to be successful (though it isn't guaranteed). It takes more in the MVFC to be successful, obviously. But I see what you're saying with the rest of your post.
They also don't fit in the OVC.

Going OVC would kill their athletic department. They aren't set up to step backwards like that. Point to "MURRAY STATE BASKETBALL" all you want, they are an extreme outlier and actually would fit better in the MVC. Missouri State going OVC and playing in league with the general lack of funding, support, media, etc. that the OVC has compared to the MVC/MVFC would end so many donors.

[ST_Lawson]

They also don't fit in the OVC.

Going OVC would kill their athletic department. They aren't set up to step backwards like that. Point to "MURRAY STATE BASKETBALL" all you want, they are an extreme outlier and actually would fit better in the MVC. Missouri State going OVC and playing in league with the general lack of funding, support, media, etc. that the OVC has compared to the MVC/MVFC would end so many donors.

Yup, the only issue with Missouri State is football. MVC is great for them in nearly all their "Olympic" sports. They're not going to be looking at an all-sports league unless it's a step up from the MVC, and they're not likely to get an invite from any league above the MVC.


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[Reign of Terrier]

They also don't fit in the OVC.

Going OVC would kill their athletic department. They aren't set up to step backwards like that. Point to "MURRAY STATE BASKETBALL" all you want, they are an extreme outlier and actually would fit better in the MVC. Missouri State going OVC and playing in league with the general lack of funding, support, media, etc. that the OVC has compared to the MVC/MVFC would end so many donors.

I'm going simply by geography here. Yellow dots=MVFC, green dots=OVC. If I'm not mistaken, the MVFC is a football conference, with different schools playing in different other conferences, correct? I'm not proposing a full-on membership to the OVC (or anything for that matter), just putting forth the simple proposition that the MVFC is hard and if their goal was simply winning football games, a different football conference would accomplish that, and the travel expenses would be comparable to cheaper. What's more, if the most common comment made about your football team is "why do we have one," I have a hard time believing transitioning football conferences would ruin donor relations. Further, I think the media/donor question is better looked at in terms of the students MSU is targeting and where their alumni are located. The OVC doesn't have the same geographic footprint as the MVFC, but do the people who go to MSU or that MSU is trying to target live in those MVFC states? What about alumni?

I see what you're saying in terms of MSU being a superior institutions to the OVC in terms of facilities and overall strength, but I don't have a point of reference for how the OVC compares to the MVFC in terms of "strength," other than the intuition that the OVC is a strong Tennessee-based-directional-college conference (which is why EKU wants out ASAP).

Anyway, I still don't (yet) see the downside for a hypothetical football-only move to the OVC, outside of the fact that it will likely not happen.

[ST_Lawson]

Anyway, I still don't (yet) see the downside for a hypothetical football-only move to the OVC, outside of the fact that it will likely not happen.

I don't think there's necessarily a downside to what you're suggesting....Missouri State staying in the MVC for all sports except football, which joins the OVC. The problem is, I don't know that the OVC would be willing to entertain that idea. They don't have any football-only schools in their conference, although they do have one that is in for all sports except football (Morehead State...in the Pioneer for football). I don't know enough about everyone's motivations to know for sure, but from everything I've heard, they pretty much want their teams in for all sports or none.

[clenz]

1. MSU would give up all rivals. Why? MSU plays UNI, ISUx2 and SIU in every other sport. Why give that up to play Tennessee Tech, Austin Peay, etc.?

2. OVC wants literally nothing to do with affiliate members. If they did Murray State would have been in the MVC a couple years ago instead of/along with Valpo. Murray State wasn't able to move football a couple years back to the MVFC and the OVC told them in no uncertain terms was their program allowed to stay OVC - which killed that move. At least for the time being.

[dgtw]

The OVC has nine football playing members, not counting Morehead State. That allows for a full round robin with everyone getting four home games. If Murray left I wouldn’t be opposed to them joining as a full member, though they wouldn’t be my first choice.


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[uni88]

Which are probably better numbers than MSAs because MSAs take up counties and counties of space. I just didn't want to do the work to set the miles and pull the populations. I Think looking at the direct city/metro - like you did - is a better measure.


I know SDSU/USD fans are going to be rather upset at the idea of leaving Sioux Falls of, but as I showed with UNI if we add that kind of distance things skew real fast.

The reality is YSU an MSU are the outliers on the high end and WIU/USD/SDSU on the lower end.

The MVC (I now not MVFC) is almost all in the mid 100k range outside of Valpo, Drake and Missouri State

In their defense, I'm guessing that SDSU and USD probably have a greater share of the Sioux Falls market (or affinity) than UNI does of the Cedar Rapids or Dubuque markets.

[BEAR]

Saw where uaf pigs moved their game against MoState to 2022 so UCA will pick them up in 2021.

[Cocky]

From the article:


Vermont and Alaska would like a word with him.

While I hate to see anyone drop football, I don't think it's the worst option for them. With the current makeup of the conference, and without drastic changes, I don't see them finishing above .500 for quite a while. If they're ok with that, then...ok.

Never have heard of Mizz State being classified as major?
Personally would not want them in the OVC unless its all sports. Already have enough bad football teams.

[dgtw]

Never have heard of Mizz State being classified as major?
Personally would not want them in the OVC unless its all sports. Already have enough bad football teams.

I agree. Eight is plenty.


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[Thumper 76]

Which are probably better numbers than MSAs because MSAs take up counties and counties of space. I just didn't want to do the work to set the miles and pull the populations. I Think looking at the direct city/metro - like you did - is a better measure.


I know SDSU/USD fans are going to be rather upset at the idea of leaving Sioux Falls of, but as I showed with UNI if we add that kind of distance things skew real fast.

The reality is YSU an MSU are the outliers on the high end and WIU/USD/SDSU on the lower end.

The MVC (I now not MVFC) is almost all in the mid 100k range outside of Valpo, Drake and Missouri State

Nah, not really upset at all. Just shows it’s a different animal for the SD schools to draw support and attendance for sporting events and teams.

[walliver]

I'm going simply by geography here. Yellow dots=MVFC, green dots=OVC. If I'm not mistaken, the MVFC is a football conference, with different schools playing in different other conferences, correct? I'm not proposing a full-on membership to the OVC (or anything for that matter), just putting forth the simple proposition that the MVFC is hard and if their goal was simply winning football games, a different football conference would accomplish that, and the travel expenses would be comparable to cheaper. What's more, if the most common comment made about your football team is "why do we have one," I have a hard time believing transitioning football conferences would ruin donor relations. Further, I think the media/donor question is better looked at in terms of the students MSU is targeting and where their alumni are located. The OVC doesn't have the same geographic footprint as the MVFC, but do the people who go to MSU or that MSU is trying to target live in those MVFC states? What about alumni?

I see what you're saying in terms of MSU being a superior institutions to the OVC in terms of facilities and overall strength, but I don't have a point of reference for how the OVC compares to the MVFC in terms of "strength," other than the intuition that the OVC is a strong Tennessee-based-directional-college conference (which is why EKU wants out ASAP).

Anyway, I still don't (yet) see the downside for a hypothetical football-only move to the OVC, outside of the fact that it will likely not happen.

VMI thought they could fix football by stepping down to a weaker conference. It didn't work.
I don't see any reason that plan would work for Missouri State either.

[Yote 53]

A few years ago, I did a population ring check of the number of people within a 20 mile radius of the schools in the FCS. The data is a couple of years old, but it should give a good idea of the "local population" and includes the schools not in a MSA.
Youngstown State - 613,208
Missouri State - 311,815
Indiana State - 172,226
North Dakota State - 167,177
Illinois State - 163,061
Northern Iowa - 162,573
Southern Illinois - 141,073
North Dakota (joining in 2020) - 74,231
Western Illinois - 43,629
South Dakota State - 34,387
South Dakota - 28,690

20 miles is pretty arbitrary. It is also convenient. Make it 40 miles and you bring the Sioux City metro area into range for USD, 168,000 MSA. USD has always been a school that pulls heavily from NW Iowa. I'd dare say USD has as big of a presence in Sioux City as it does in Sioux Falls.

Draw a one hour drive circle around Vermillion and you bring in both Sioux City and Sioux Falls. The thing people don't understand about those that live out here is that driving an hour to get to something is no big deal. Driving 2 hours is not that big of deal. The further west you go the more common it is to have to drive for services, or your groceries. Not uncommon for people to drive 2 hours to go to Sioux City, Omaha, Sioux Falls, Fargo, etc.

[clenz]

Cool - that means UNI gets to claim

Cedar Falls/Waterloo
Dubuque
Davenport/Quad Cities
Ames
Des Moines metro
Cedar Rapids
Iowa City
Fort Doge
Clear Lake/Mason City
Albert Lea, Minnesota


UNI's media market is top 40 in the country

[ST_Lawson]

20 miles is pretty arbitrary. It is also convenient. Make it 40 miles and you bring the Sioux City metro area into range for USD, 168,000 MSA. USD has always been a school that pulls heavily from NW Iowa. I'd dare say USD has as big of a presence in Sioux City as it does in Sioux Falls.

Draw a one hour drive circle around Vermillion and you bring in both Sioux City and Sioux Falls. The thing people don't understand about those that live out here is that driving an hour to get to something is no big deal. Driving 2 hours is not that big of deal. The further west you go the more common it is to have to drive for services, or your groceries. Not uncommon for people to drive 2 hours to go to Sioux City, Omaha, Sioux Falls, Fargo, etc.

Ok, here's population within 40 miles of each school:

Youngstown State - 1,330,556
Illinois State - 595,765
Missouri State - 483,707
Southern Illinois - 370,472
Indiana State - 351,677
Northern Iowa - 289,665
Western Illinois - 262,792
South Dakota - 230,440
North Dakota State - 204,501
North Dakota - 116,643
South Dakota State - 90,408

Illinois State moves up in the rankings because it gains Peoria and (I think) Champaign/Urbana (which includes the U of I).
NDSU drops because the majority of their "local" population is right there in the Fargo area and is fairly sparsely populated outside of that.

Really though, the point of the list was to show that Missouri State has higher population in their region than most of the conference members, which I think still stands for the most part.

EDIT - so...we just going to keep doing this until WIU includes Chicago and St. Louis? YSU gets Cleveland and Pittsburgh? How about SIU claiming Nashville and Memphis?

[wapiti]

VMI thought they could fix football by stepping down to a weaker conference. It didn't work.
I don't see any reason that plan would work for Missouri State either.

Idaho had their first season last season after stepping down from FBS. It did not turn out so well for them and they are not getting any preseason love this season.
So yea, stepping down a conference in competition does not equal to success in lower conference.

[Professor Chaos]

EDIT - so...we just going to keep doing this until WIU includes Chicago and St. Louis? YSU gets Cleveland and Pittsburgh? How about SIU claiming Nashville and Memphis?
And then NDSU gets Valley City and Wahpeton!

https://media.giphy.com/media/TsD8LGhM5jgs0/giphy.gif

[ST_Lawson]

And then NDSU gets Valley City and Wahpeton!

Dude, we're almost to the point that NDSU can claim Minneapolis and Winnipeg.

[Professor Chaos]

Dude, we're almost to the point that NDSU can claim Minneapolis and Winnipeg.
UND can have Winnipeg. ;)

[nodak651]

Ok, here's population within 40 miles of each school:

Youngstown State - 1,330,556
Illinois State - 595,765
Missouri State - 483,707
Southern Illinois - 370,472
Indiana State - 351,677
Northern Iowa - 289,665
Western Illinois - 262,792
South Dakota - 230,440
North Dakota State - 204,501
North Dakota - 116,643
South Dakota State - 90,408

Illinois State moves up in the rankings because it gains Peoria and (I think) Champaign/Urbana (which includes the U of I).
NDSU drops because the majority of their "local" population is right there in the Fargo area and is fairly sparsely populated outside of that.

Really though, the point of the list was to show that Missouri State has higher population in their region than most of the conference members, which I think still stands for the most part.

EDIT - so...we just going to keep doing this until WIU includes Chicago and St. Louis? YSU gets Cleveland and Pittsburgh? How about SIU claiming Nashville and Memphis?

This is an interesting conversation, because there are so many variables with the school, cities, sports, and alumni. For example, tons of UND graduates live in Fargo, but really, the only people who drive up to UND for football from Fargo are the alumni. The casual fan in Fargo is typically going to be a Bison fan, for obvious reasons. The hockey team is different, in that thousands of casual fans from Fargo will drive up to watch the hockey team play. The obvious difference is that NDSU football is very successful, UND hockey is successful, and neither have much competition in the Fargo market, with the exceptions being Fargo Force hockey fans and UND alumns who watch football.

The point is that it's difficult for UND football to draw casual Fargo fans, but alumni will come to the games. The same goes for UNI's competition in Des Moines, and basically anywhere where there is local competition from a legit school in a nearby city. However, the bigger the city, the bigger the alumni numbers.

I think the easiest way to account for this would be to look at population within 20 miles, plus total alumni for the school, because the alumni are most likely the ones to travel from distant cities (unless you're P5 or NDSU,orundhockey).

[Sycamore62]

20 miles is pretty arbitrary. It is also convenient. Make it 40 miles and you bring the Sioux City metro area into range for USD, 168,000 MSA. USD has always been a school that pulls heavily from NW Iowa. I'd dare say USD has as big of a presence in Sioux City as it does in Sioux Falls.

Draw a one hour drive circle around Vermillion and you bring in both Sioux City and Sioux Falls. The thing people don't understand about those that live out here is that driving an hour to get to something is no big deal. Driving 2 hours is not that big of deal. The further west you go the more common it is to have to drive for services, or your groceries. Not uncommon for people to drive 2 hours to go to Sioux City, Omaha, Sioux Falls, Fargo, etc.

driving 2 hours in central Illinois isnt a big deal either but you are probably more likely to drive 20 minutes than an hour for the same service/entertainment

[clenz]

This is an interesting conversation, because there are so many variables with the school, cities, sports, and alumni. For example, tons of UND graduates live in Fargo, but really, the only people who drive up to UND for football from Fargo are the alumni. The casual fan in Fargo is typically going to be a Bison fan, for obvious reasons. The hockey team is different, in that thousands of casual fans from Fargo will drive up to watch the hockey team play. The obvious difference is that NDSU football is very successful, UND hockey is successful, and neither have much competition in the Fargo market, with the exceptions being Fargo Force hockey fans and UND alumns who watch football.

The point is that it's difficult for UND football to draw casual Fargo fans, but alumni will come to the games. The same goes for UNI's competition in Des Moines, and basically anywhere where there is local competition from a legit school in a nearby city. However, the bigger the city, the bigger the alumni numbers.

I think the easiest way to account for this would be to look at population within 20 miles, plus total alumni for the school, because the alumni are most likely the ones to travel from distant cities (unless you're P5 or NDSU,orundhockey).
I would agree with this.

UNI has more alumns in Des Moines and Cedar Rapids than Cedar Falls/Waterloo but getting them to CF is much much mch harder

[ST_Lawson]

driving 2 hours in central Illinois isnt a big deal either but you are probably more likely to drive 20 minutes than an hour for the same service/entertainment

I'll drive 2 hours to go to my allergist dr., or to go see Avengers in IMAX, or to go to a Target. I'll go up to around 3 hours for a football game (there and back same day)...like if we're playing at UNI.
Just depends on what the thing I'm driving for is.

Casual fans aren't driving 2+ hours for football though, which is our biggest problem. Most of our alumni are in the Chicago area (3+ hours away).

[clenz]

I won't stop until we get to 4.5 hours.

That gives UNI
all previously mentioned cities plus

Sioux Falls
Sioux City
Omaha
Minneapolis/St Paul
Chicago
Kansas City
St Louis
Columbia, MO
Madison WI
Milwaukee WI
Normal/Bloomington
Peoria


THE WORLD IS OURS!!!!!!

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[ST_Lawson]

I won't stop until we get to 4.5 hours.

That gives UNI
all previously mentioned cities plus

Sioux Falls
Sioux City
Omaha
Minneapolis/St Paul
Chicago
Kansas City
St Louis
Columbia, MO
Madison WI
Milwaukee WI
Normal/Bloomington
Peoria


THE WORLD IS OURS!!!!!!

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Ok fine, but you know that means that we also get Cedar Falls/Waterloo.

[clenz]

Ok fine, but you know that means that we also get Cedar Falls/Waterloo.Take it.

We use the exact same colors anyway. No one would know
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[uni88]

This is an interesting conversation, because there are so many variables with the school, cities, sports, and alumni. For example, tons of UND graduates live in Fargo, but really, the only people who drive up to UND for football from Fargo are the alumni. The casual fan in Fargo is typically going to be a Bison fan, for obvious reasons. The hockey team is different, in that thousands of casual fans from Fargo will drive up to watch the hockey team play. The obvious difference is that NDSU football is very successful, UND hockey is successful, and neither have much competition in the Fargo market, with the exceptions being Fargo Force hockey fans and UND alumns who watch football.

The point is that it's difficult for UND football to draw casual Fargo fans, but alumni will come to the games. The same goes for UNI's competition in Des Moines, and basically anywhere where there is local competition from a legit school in a nearby city. However, the bigger the city, the bigger the alumni numbers.

I think the easiest way to account for this would be to look at population within 20 miles, plus total alumni for the school, because the alumni are most likely the ones to travel from distant cities (unless you're P5 or NDSU,orundhockey).

You can't really compare UNI or other directional schools to the Dakotas. The casual fan in Waterloo/Cedar Falls is more interested in Iowa football and just as if not more likely to drive to Iowa City for a game than they are to go to the Dome. The Dakotas (and Montanas and Delaware) don't have a big brother school that draws the vast majority of the interest of casual fans. A poster in another thread called it affinity.

[GreenGlasses]

It's pretty easy to build a winning program at the FCS level just by virtue of the number of teams that have won/been very competitive their conference relatively quickly and made it to at least the quarterfinals (CSU, SEMO twice now, a handful of CAA teams, UC Davis, Kennesaw state, etc). The fact is, recruiting is almost not a factor at this level because teams turn around. so quickly. Coaching is most of it.


This isn't the case at all in most who are losing year after year at the IAA level. Sure ever so often you hear the stories of Charleston Southern, Nicholls State or even Southeastern Louisiana turning it around when they hit the lottery on a coaching hire (Jamie Chadwell, Tim Rebowe, Ron Roberts). But for the most part you don't hear those stories. Just a lil under 40% of IAA football programs at this level are not fully funded and that is the heart of the problem.


Then you have 10-12 schools in IAA that really just don't care if they have football or not but for some reason if it be conference affiliation or what they won't drop the sport. You can put just about every Pioneer League school in there, especially Davidson and Morehead State. Then there is VMI who deemphasized athletics altogether in the early 80s and hasn't had a winning season in football since 1981. Just for fun in 1981 a house cost 78,500, car 6,200, Stamp 0.15, avg income 15,200, price of gas 0.63, price of milk 1.60, price of bread 0.54, price of a family of 4 eating out 9.12.

[Bisonoline]

The uncomfortable reality for many here is that this is life for many teams in the FCS who are unsuccessful for a long period of time. Something like 80% of programs play in half-empty stadiums. For many programs like Wofford/Furman, this doesn't matter because the quality of the game is decent and they see athletics as supporting their overall academic purpose.

It's pretty easy to build a winning program at the FCS level just by virtue of the number of teams that have won/been very competitive their conference relatively quickly and made it to at least the quarterfinals (CSU, SEMO twice now, a handful of CAA teams, UC Davis, Kennesaw state, etc). The fact is, recruiting is almost not a factor at this level because teams turn around so quickly. Coaching is most of it.

I imagine these problems are similar in all conferences of FCS, but what makes Missouri State unique is probably their travel budget and the toughness of the MVFC. Even if the toughness of the CAA/Big Sky is similar at the top as the MVFC, you don't play everybody in those conference (even if the MVFC only plays 8 of 9). That makes it really hard to build anything. As others have alluded to, the OVC is a much better fit to built a program long term.

xeekx xsmhx Are you trolling or serious?

[Yote 53]

Cool - that means UNI gets to claim

Cedar Falls/Waterloo
Dubuque
Davenport/Quad Cities
Ames
Des Moines metro
Cedar Rapids
Iowa City
Fort Doge
Clear Lake/Mason City
Albert Lea, Minnesota


UNI's media market is top 40 in the country

C'mon Clenz. You know the difference. Iowa and Iowa State suck a lot of the air out of the room in the state of Iowa. The Dakota schools are in a completely different situation.