UWGB in early discussions about football addition

[Mike296]

I know this originally came up back in November but I have people telling me they’ve had continued discussions about starting a D1 football team and possibly scholarships as well depending on how the study on the matter goes. They’re looking at either OVC or Pioneer depending on if they go scholarship or not. Recent state law changes prevents Madison from having a say in the matter and I think it’d be a great thing to have another D1 football school in Wisconsin.


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[DFW HOYA]

Good for Green Bay. While we're at it, they need an in-state rival.

https://i.pinimg.com/474x/f5/3f/e8/f53fe812458dcb60e93fe7dce92ac4eb--football-team-fest.jpg

[cx500d]

Good for Green Bay. While we're at it, they need an in-state rival.

https://i.pinimg.com/474x/f5/3f/e8/f53fe812458dcb60e93fe7dce92ac4eb--football-team-fest.jpg

If they need help on their uniform colors, here is an idea...

https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/pantagraph.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/0/03/003e0f9b-64a1-51d0-b504-f989cea21289/5bc93f95388c1.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C800

[dgtw]

I know this originally came up back in November but I have people telling me they’ve had continued discussions about starting a D1 football team and possibly scholarships as well depending on how the study on the matter goes. They’re looking at either OVC or Pioneer depending on if they go scholarship or not. Recent state law changes prevents Madison from having a say in the matter and I think it’d be a great thing to have another D1 football school in Wisconsin.


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Why would the OVC want them?


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[Sycamore62]

Why would the OVC want them?


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They are already the 3rd best team in the conference

[WestCoastAggie]

They are already the 3rd best team in the conference

But travel from Green Bay to Jacksonville, AL is an unstable creature.

[JSUSoutherner]

But travel from Green Bay to Jacksonville, AL is an unstable creature.

This. SEMO and EIU are already far enough.

JSU and the Tennessee schools would **** themselves over a school from Green Bay. That's just a losing situation for everyone.

[Sycamore62]

But travel from Green Bay to Jacksonville, AL is an unstable creature.

its comparable to the MVFC distances. im not saying it would or should happen but once every other year on a plane isnt that bad

[dgtw]

This. SEMO and EIU are already far enough.

JSU and the Tennessee schools would **** themselves over a school from Green Bay. That's just a losing situation for everyone.

It’s only 900 miles. And the conference doesn’t care what we like.

All that aside, I don’t see them adding anybody unless someone leaves. The Murray to the MVC thing seems to be off the table.


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[RabidRabbit]

Pretty good add for either mvc or Summit leagues + MVFC. Or just MVFC.


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[clenz]

Summit League football!!!

pump it up!!!!!!!!!

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[JSUSoutherner]

It’s only 900 miles. And the conference doesn’t care what we like.

All that aside, I don’t see them adding anybody unless someone leaves. The Murray to the MVC thing seems to be off the table.


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They would if we threatened to leave and go to the Big South.

[dgtw]

They would if we threatened to leave and go to the Big South.

I don’t know if they’d beg us to stay. We are the southernmost school, so they’d save on travel if we left. Plus we are the bully in football.




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[JSUSoutherner]

I don’t know if they’d beg us to stay. We are the southernmost school, so they’d save on travel if we left. Plus we are the bully in football.




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We seem to be a bully in most sports nowadays.

With as many schools as are Tennessee, losing us and adding some school nobody has ever heard of in the Tundra sounds like a net loss for the OVC. Of course, like you said, they may not care. Which also wouldn't surprise me.

[dgtw]

We seem to be a bully in most sports nowadays.

With as many schools as are Tennessee, losing us and adding some school nobody has ever heard of in the Tundra sounds like a net loss for the OVC. Of course, like you said, they may not care. Which also wouldn't surprise me.

Green Bay is 393 miles from EIU so I don’t see this happening.


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[ST_Lawson]

Geographically, the MVFC (or Pioneer if they want to go non-scholarship) make the most sense, although once UND is added in 2020, we'll be at 11 teams already. GB would be 12 and we're getting dangerously close to Big Sky-levels of ridiculousness.
I assume in either of those cases, they'd probably keep their non-football sports in the Horizon League (where their women's basketball team has been really good lately).

[JSUSoutherner]

Green Bay is 393 miles from EIU so I don’t see this happening.


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And who is EIU close to?

[dgtw]

And who is EIU close to?

SIUE is 127 miles and SEMO is 201. Jacksonville is 504.


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[Mike296]

The reason they’re looking at OVC for Football apparently is because they are of the belief that they are too small a school for the MVFC and that the MVFC is already “too big” to take them. That leaves the OVC with EIU being a reasonable travel partner but they’ve also said that the OVC really isn’t ideal either. There really isn’t a good option for them to be a scholarship team and they’re considering starting as an independent if the NCAA would allow it.


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[JSUSoutherner]

SIUE is 127 miles and SEMO is 201. Jacksonville is 504.


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I guess you must be one of those people James Spann was talking about a couple weeks ago who have never seen a map. Let me show you some numbers before you continue this path of acting like JSU is way out of the OVC footprint compared to EIU.

SIUE may be close but SIUE doesn't play football. EIU's closest football school is SEMO at 201, JSU is 203 miles from TTU.

What a difference.

JSU is an average of 329 miles away from OVC football schools and 334 from all schools.

EIU is an average of 302 miles away from football schools 289 from all schools.

About 30 miles... What a difference.

But this thread isn't about JSU or EIU in the OVC footprint, it's about Green Bay.

If you take the geographic center of the conference using longitudes and latitudes of all the OVC schools averaged together:

EIU is 210 miles away from center as the crow flies.
JSU is 270 miles away from center as the crow flies.
Green Bay is 560. (367 miles from EIU)

What. A. Difference.

So, if you're going to take exception to me stating Green Bay would be way TF out of the OVC footprint, you may want to consult a map first.

[Mike296]

I guess you must be one of those people James Spann was talking about a couple weeks ago who have never seen a map. Let me show you some numbers before you continue this path of acting like JSU is way out of the OVC footprint compared to EIU.

SIUE may be close but SIUE doesn't play football. EIU's closest football school is SEMO at 201, JSU is 203 miles from TTU.

What a difference.

JSU is an average of 329 miles away from OVC football schools and 334 from all schools.

EIU is an average of 302 miles away from football schools 289 from all schools.

About 30 miles... What a difference.

But this thread isn't about JSU or EIU in the OVC footprint, it's about Green Bay.

If you take the geographic center of the conference using longitudes and latitudes of all the OVC schools averaged together:

EIU is 210 miles away from center as the crow flies.
JSU is 270 miles away from center as the crow flies.
Green Bay is 560. (367 miles from EIU)

What. A. Difference.

So, if you're going to take exception to me stating Green Bay would be way TF out of the OVC footprint, you may want to consult a map first.

You’re very much in the right here the OVC really isn’t ideal for UWGB but if they go scholarship football there’s not a lot of options for them realistically speaking for football. Pioneer wouldn’t be bad but even then the east coast schools might stir up problems. There isn’t an ideal situation for GB in FCS in the current landscape.


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[PAllen]

You’re very much in the right here the OVC really isn’t ideal for UWGB but if they go scholarship football there’s not a lot of options for them realistically speaking for football. Pioneer wouldn’t be bad but even then the east coast schools might stir up problems. There isn’t an ideal situation for GB in FCS in the current landscape.


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Eh, just go straight to FBS and play in Lambeau. The B1G would have a fit.

[dgtw]

I guess you must be one of those people James Spann was talking about a couple weeks ago who have never seen a map. Let me show you some numbers before you continue this path of acting like JSU is way out of the OVC footprint compared to EIU.

SIUE may be close but SIUE doesn't play football. EIU's closest football school is SEMO at 201, JSU is 203 miles from TTU.

What a difference.

JSU is an average of 329 miles away from OVC football schools and 334 from all schools.

EIU is an average of 302 miles away from football schools 289 from all schools.

About 30 miles... What a difference.

But this thread isn't about JSU or EIU in the OVC footprint, it's about Green Bay.

If you take the geographic center of the conference using longitudes and latitudes of all the OVC schools averaged together:

EIU is 210 miles away from center as the crow flies.
JSU is 270 miles away from center as the crow flies.
Green Bay is 560. (367 miles from EIU)

What. A. Difference.

So, if you're going to take exception to me stating Green Bay would be way TF out of the OVC footprint, you may want to consult a map first.

I never said Green Bay wasn’t out of the footprint. I brought up EIU because I looked it up to see how far away they were. I really had no idea where the two schools were in relation to each other.


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[Sycamore62]

it's 5 trips per decade. the football trip isnt the issue.

the issue is whether the existing OVC teams would be able to compete with a startup program.

[uni88]

it's 5 trips per decade. the football trip isnt the issue.

the issue is whether the existing OVC teams would be able to compete with a startup program.We know that EIU likes to duck tough competition so they'd probably support a GB for JSU trade-off

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[JSUSoutherner]

it's 5 trips per decade. the football trip isnt the issue.

the issue is whether the existing OVC teams would be able to compete with a startup program.

For football. What about the rest of the sports. Those sports aren't free.

[Sycamore62]

For football. What about the rest of the sports. Those sports aren't free.

there value is about $0

[JSUSoutherner]

there value is about $0

Apparently so is a degree from ISUb. xlolx

[Sycamore62]

Apparently so ̶a̶ ̶d̶e̶g̶r̶e̶e̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶I̶S̶U̶b̶ are most degrees from most universities. xlolx


fixed it

[JSUSoutherner]

there value is about $0
xcoffeex

[Sycamore62]

̶t̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ they're value is about $0


xcoffeex

Fixed it for me

I meant at their location, value is about $0

Criminology, not English

[Mike296]

Ideally GB would fit in the MVFC geographically but as far as the size of the school goes, they’d be the smallest in the MVFC by a decent margin. They’d be on par enrollment wise with a lot of the OVC schools. Travel is going to be an issue no matter where they end up being from the far north of Wisconsin where even Madison is about 2 hours away. I don’t think they’re going to pull a UNCC or UTSA and use FCS as a stop gap but I could see them being what we’re seeing with Kennesaw State right now. It all depends how they approach this.


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[ST_Lawson]

Ideally GB would fit in the MVFC geographically but as far as the size of the school goes, they’d be the smallest in the MVFC by a decent margin. They’d be on par enrollment wise with a lot of the OVC schools.
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Just for reference, the Macomb campus of WIU only has ~400 more students (as of last fall) than UWGB does.

[Mike296]

Just for reference, the Macomb campus of WIU only has ~400 more students (as of last fall) than UWGB does.

Would the MVFC/Summit even want UWGB? If they do go scholarship and go to the Valley they wouldn’t be competitive right away but it would give them better chance at in state recruits that would go to the Dakota schools. Then again for non football sports they’re not that great of an athletics department asides from Women’s hoops in recent years. I don’t see any benefits for them to leave the Horizon in their other sports. If UWGB does start a program it wouldn’t be too crazy to see Parkside try to start in D2.


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[ST_Lawson]

Would the MVFC/Summit even want UWGB? If they do go scholarship and go to the Valley they wouldn’t be competitive right away but it would give them better chance at in state recruits that would go to the Dakota schools. Then again for non football sports they’re not that great of an athletics department asides from Women’s hoops in recent years. I don’t see any benefits for them to leave the Horizon in their other sports. If UWGB does start a program it wouldn’t be too crazy to see Parkside try to start in D2.


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Probably not, I was just commenting on the enrollment bit. At our current rate, we're going to be pretty close to them by next football season.

[PantherRob82]

No one would gives any ****s about them.

[Hammerhead]

One can only hope Nebraska will do the same and give Nebraska-Omaha a chance to think about bringing back football.


I know this originally came up back in November but I have people telling me they’ve had continued discussions about starting a D1 football team and possibly scholarships as well depending on how the study on the matter goes. They’re looking at either OVC or Pioneer depending on if they go scholarship or not. Recent state law changes prevents Madison from having a say in the matter and I think it’d be a great thing to have another D1 football school in Wisconsin.


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[uni88]

Would the MVFC/Summit even want UWGB? If they do go scholarship and go to the Valley they wouldn’t be competitive right away but it would give them better chance at in state recruits that would go to the Dakota schools. Then again for non football sports they’re not that great of an athletics department asides from Women’s hoops in recent years. I don’t see any benefits for them to leave the Horizon in their other sports. If UWGB does start a program it wouldn’t be too crazy to see Parkside try to start in D2.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkWay back in the early to mid 90s they had some good men's basketball teams. UVA coach Tony Bennett played there (there was a point where he, the GB Packer and singer Tony Bennett were all in the GB airport at the same time)

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[uni88]

One can only hope Nebraska will do the same and give Nebraska-Omaha a chance to think about bringing back football.I don't see that happening. It cracks me up that Cheesehead Big Red fans think they're as passionate about their team as Husker Big Red fans. The Cheeseheads have the Packers, Brewers and Bucks. The Huskers have nothing else.

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[Mike296]

I don't see that happening. It cracks me up that Cheesehead Big Red fans think they're as passionate about their team as Husker Big Red fans. The Cheeseheads have the Packers, Brewers and Bucks. The Huskers have nothing else.

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You never know, it took us getting Evers in office for our change to happen. With the right administration anything can happen.


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[Thumper 76]

Recent state law changes prevents Madison from having a say in the matter and I think it’d be a great thing to have another D1 football school in Wisconsin.


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If that’s correct, WI will be fascinating to watch what happens with the UW system schools. I wonder if they start talking with a Whitewater/Marquette/Oshkosh about starting a program/moving up divisions as a part of their study. At minimum I would think a couple of their DIII schools look at bumping up to DII.



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[clenz]

What would you know?

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[IBleedYellow]

Boot UND out of the Summit and Valley and give us these guys instead.

[Mike296]

If that’s correct, WI will be fascinating to watch what happens with the UW system schools. I wonder if they start talking with a Whitewater/Marquette/Oshkosh about starting a program/moving up divisions as a part of their study. At minimum I would think a couple of their DIII schools look at bumping up to DII.



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No news on Whitewater or Oshkosh going D2 but Parkside is having a study done as to if it’s feasible for them to start a program. UWM has a club team but I’m not sure there’s the infrastructure for a D1 school there like there is in GB. Marquette has said previously that football is not a sport that is on their mind right now because as they have the same issues as UWM, there’s nowhere for a stadium and they wouldn’t have a conference to go to for football.


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[PAllen]

No news on Whitewater or Oshkosh going D2 but Parkside is having a study done as to if it’s feasible for them to start a program. UWM has a club team but I’m not sure there’s the infrastructure for a D1 school there like there is in GB. Marquette has said previously that football is not a sport that is on their mind right now because as they have the same issues as UWM, there’s nowhere for a stadium and they wouldn’t have a conference to go to for football.


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Marquette, GB, UWM, Whitewater, Oshkosh, Butler, Drake. There's your FB conference.

[TheKingpin28]

Marquette, GB, UWM, Whitewater, Oshkosh, Butler, Drake. There's your FB conference.

I'd add WIU as they are financially in a tough spot and going non-scholly would help them out with cost of travel for all sports immediately being a bus trip (UWGB would be 402 miles, longest trip). This would get them to 8 and if they wanted to get to 9 consider Augustana and they would have a full football schedule.

-The Sconie schools are all travel partners

-WIU would partner with the Sconie schools as well as Drake (215) and to a lesser extent, Butler (260 miles)

-While Augustana would be an outlier in the conference, if getting to 9 is the goal, they would be a potential add and considering only 4 schools would travel there each year, (Augustana is not hard up for money so they would be more than fine with the travel), they could make them a solid offer.

-Each of these schools will be getting offers from B1G almost every year to play for a money game that would cover most travel expenses for the year (smaller amounts due to bus travel) and most likely a smaller money game from the MVFC/MAC and then they could buy a D2 game from the GLIAC/GLVC to give these schools 5 home games a year or try to get 6 and buy a 2nd home game from the NEC/Pioneer for those more "endowed", even on years where there is no 12 game season.

[Mike296]

I'd add WIU as they are financially in a tough spot and going non-scholly would help them out with cost of travel for all sports immediately being a bus trip (UWGB would be 402 miles, longest trip). This would get them to 8 and if they wanted to get to 9 consider Augustana and they would have a full football schedule.

-The Sconie schools are all travel partners

-WIU would partner with the Sconie schools as well as Drake (215) and to a lesser extent, Butler (260 miles)

-While Augustana would be an outlier in the conference, if getting to 9 is the goal, they would be a potential add and considering only 4 schools would travel there each year, (Augustana is not hard up for money so they would be more than fine with the travel), they could make them a solid offer.

-Each of these schools will be getting offers from B1G almost every year to play for a money game that would cover most travel expenses for the year (smaller amounts due to bus travel) and most likely a smaller money game from the MVFC/MAC and then they could buy a D2 game from the GLIAC/GLVC to give these schools 5 home games a year or try to get 6 and buy a 2nd home game from the NEC/Pioneer for those more "endowed", even on years where there is no 12 game season.

Add Parkside to that list too if they start a football team. Solid D2 program already that could make the D1 jump in all other sports.


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[Model Citizen]

UW schools have no interest in moving up. Drake and Butler have no interest in moving down, esp considering the Dayton Rule.

[Mike296]

UW schools have no interest in moving up. Drake and Butler have no interest in moving down, esp considering the Dayton Rule.

I already said briefly that it’s highly unlikely that Whitewater or Oshkosh move up. Also Drake and Butler might like a better regional fit if something ever came to be.

If Parkside ever goes D1 and eventually starts a program you could have something like this

UWGB
EIU
Drake
Butler
WIU
UWP
Augustana

That wouldn’t be a half bad conference right there but it wouldn’t happen likely until 2030 and by then who knows what the FCS landscape will be like by then.


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[dbackjon]

Add St. Thomas to that list - the D3 power just got booted from their conference for being to big.

[Mike296]

Add St. Thomas to that list - the D3 power just got booted from their conference for being to big.

How would that work? Isn’t there a rule saying you can only jump one division at a time?


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[dbackjon]

How would that work? Isn’t there a rule saying you can only jump one division at a time?


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Correct - they wouldn't be eligible for FCS for 8 years, but a long term goal would make the transition doable. Their profile fits either D2 or D1 more than D3, anyways.

[Laker]

How would that work? Isn’t there a rule saying you can only jump one division at a time?

Yes, there is. Just talked to one of my former student/athletes who is at UST. He is hearing rumors that lawyers are talking to the NCAA with "extenuating circumstances" in mind.

They will be in the MIAC until 2021. They could stay D3, join the D2 NSIC since Augie will be leaving, or eventually go FCS- probably Pioneer. They don't know yet themselves.

Reusse‏ @Patrick_Reusse (https://twitter.com/Patrick_Reusse) 7m7 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/Patrick_Reusse/status/1131355283501002753)More



My gut feeling (it’s quite a gut):Tommies wind up in WIAC, giving it 9 teams — and 6 in hockey. Still room for 2 NC games in FB: Johnnies and one patsy.MIAC will have 3 games to fill, unless Mac returns in football, which it currently doesn’t prefer.

[Bisonoline]

Yes, there is. Just talked to one of my former student/athletes who is at UST. He is hearing rumors that lawyers are talking to the NCAA with "extenuating circumstances" in mind.

They will be in the MIAC until 2021. They could stay D3, join the D2 NSIC since Augie will be leaving, or eventually go FCS- probably Pioneer. They don't know yet themselves.

Reusse‏ @Patrick_Reusse (https://twitter.com/Patrick_Reusse) 7m7 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/Patrick_Reusse/status/1131355283501002753)More



My gut feeling (it’s quite a gut):Tommies wind up in WIAC, giving it 9 teams — and 6 in hockey. Still room for 2 NC games in FB: Johnnies and one patsy.MIAC will have 3 games to fill, unless Mac returns in football, which it currently doesn’t prefer.


Liberty jumped to D1 with no conference invite and the NCAA didnt mess with them. I dont think they wanted to mess with the Liberty war chest which would have challenged a bunch of their idiotic rules.

[uni88]

I already said briefly that it’s highly unlikely that Whitewater or Oshkosh move up. Also Drake and Butler might like a better regional fit if something ever came to be.

If Parkside ever goes D1 and eventually starts a program you could have something like this

UWGB
EIU
Drake
Butler
WIU
UWP
Augustana

That wouldn’t be a half bad conference right there but it wouldn’t happen likely until 2030 and by then who knows what the FCS landscape will be like by then.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkValpo over SD Augustana and I don't think the Quad Cities Augustana is moving up any time soon.

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[Mike296]

Valpo over SD Augustana and I don't think the Quad Cities Augustana is moving up any time soon.

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I forgot about Valpo when I made the post so thank you for reminding me. With this setup the Pioneer loses Butler,Valpo, and Drake. You could technically put Dayton in there as well but then the PFL would be dead as a conference with like 4 members or something.


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[Model Citizen]

Just talked to one of my former student/athletes who is at UST. He is hearing rumors that lawyers are talking to the NCAA with "extenuating circumstances" in mind.

... Augie will be leaving, or eventually go FCS- probably Pioneer.

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30542&stc=1


"A toast to the things for which there are no substitutes: good friends... happy days... and... the Pioneer Football League."

- - - Updated - - -


Just talked to one of my former student/athletes who is at UST. He is hearing rumors that lawyers are talking to the NCAA with "extenuating circumstances" in mind.

... Augie will be leaving, or eventually go FCS- probably Pioneer.

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30542&stc=1


"A toast to the things for which there are no substitutes: good friends... happy days... and... the Pioneer Football League."

[Pinnum]

One can only hope Nebraska will do the same and give Nebraska-Omaha a chance to think about bringing back football.

I want to see St. Cloud State as a D1 school in Minnesota...

[Pinnum]

Liberty jumped to D1 with no conference invite and the NCAA didnt mess with them. I dont think they wanted to mess with the Liberty war chest which would have challenged a bunch of their idiotic rules.

Liberty's case was unique in that they are already an NCAA division-I member and all the FBS conferences refused to let them join despite meeting all reasonable metrics. There was a clear bias against Liberty and they could have been viewed as colluding to keep out Liberty or at least acting as a cartel.

That isn't to say that any individual conference should be forced to admit a new member but the FBS system specifically has policies to allow for independent teams which further complicated the conference membership requirement.

[Laker]

I want to see St. Cloud State as a D1 school in Minnesota...

Won't happen unless they drop football. All the money is going into hockey there- other programs have really been hurt. I think SCSU has 18 football scholarships. MSU has 30 and we are going to 32. Winona has 36.

[Mike296]

A minor update to this that I’ve found out from the inside is that this is looking more like a reality. They’re looking at a Georgia St type situation for the first two years where they rent out Lambeau Field from the Packers until they can get their stadium built fully. No news on conference plans yet but my inside source says that a move to the MVFC or Pioneer is feasible.


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[DFW HOYA]

A minor update to this that I’ve found out from the inside is that this is looking more like a reality. They’re looking at a Georgia St type situation for the first two years where they rent out Lambeau Field from the Packers until they can get their stadium built fully. No news on conference plans yet but my inside source says that a move to the MVFC or Pioneer is feasible.

Who chooses between the Valley and the Pioneer?

[Mike296]

Who chooses between the Valley and the Pioneer?
It’s a Scholarship vs non Scholarship thing


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[TheKingpin28]

A minor update to this that I’ve found out from the inside is that this is looking more like a reality. They’re looking at a Georgia St type situation for the first two years where they rent out Lambeau Field from the Packers until they can get their stadium built fully. No news on conference plans yet but my inside source says that a move to the MVFC or Pioneer is feasible.


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No way the Valley takes them. That would bring them to 12 and then we run into split conference of NDSU, SDSU, USeD, GFCC, UNI, and UWGB/Missery St in one division and YSU, WIU, SIU, ISUr, ISUb, and UWGB/Missery St in the other division.

On the other hand, I doubt the Pioneer would want them as they are already taking Presby and adding UWGB and most likely Augustana would put them at 13.

[DFW HOYA]

It’s a Scholarship vs non Scholarship thing

What, can't a non-scholarship team play in a scholarship league? xlolx

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

No way the Valley takes them. That would bring them to 12 and then we run into split conference of NDSU, SDSU, USeD, GFCC, UNI, and UWGB/Missery St in one division and YSU, WIU, SIU, ISUr, ISUb, and UWGB/Missery St in the other division.

On the other hand, I doubt the Pioneer would want them as they are already taking Presby and adding UWGB and most likely Augustana would put them at 13.


I actually might like divisions in the Valley but whatever "west" division there is, it will be infinitely better than the east.

Green Bay would be a good addition IMO.....games at Lambeau would be fun.

[lucchesicourt]

I have a question. If a non schollie league and has a player with an academic schollie would that count as an athletic schollie?

[uni88]

No way the Valley takes them. That would bring them to 12 and then we run into split conference of NDSU, SDSU, USeD, GFCC, UNI, and UWGB/Missery St in one division and YSU, WIU, SIU, ISUr, ISUb, and UWGB/Missery St in the other division.

On the other hand, I doubt the Pioneer would want them as they are already taking Presby and adding UWGB and most likely Augustana would put them at 13.

If I'm the Pioneer, I take GB over Augie.

[TheKingpin28]

If I'm the Pioneer, I take GB over Augie.

While I agree with this, the Valley won't want to touch Augie, but SDSU and USeD will have to vote for them. NDSU and GFCC might have to, depending on financial aspects, but even if they get only 4, that still won't be enough. With Presby joining though, expect the Pioneer to move to divisions maybe to cut down costs? (Ideally San Diego would move to the Big Sky and they go 14 with 2 divisions of 7 but I spoke with the former coach of San Diego and that is not their goal and they enjoy their situation where they are at, even though they would be competitive from day 1 in the BS). 11 So with Presby joining and adding these 2 teams, they go to 13 with these 2. Considering SD will stay, that leaves a big issue. Augie will have Sanford money to throw at the conference like there is no tomorrow. UWGB would give 2 bus trips vs Augie being 1 bus trip. Both airports can handle airplanes so that wouldn't be an issue. While I would choose UWGB, I don't want the Augie issue being an issue for the I29 corridor schools, which I can see it being if they are not given a home for football.


(Summit League Football)

[Mike296]

While I agree with this, the Valley won't want to touch Augie, but SDSU and USeD will have to vote for them. NDSU and GFCC might have to, depending on financial aspects, but even if they get only 4, that still won't be enough. With Presby joining though, expect the Pioneer to move to divisions maybe to cut down costs? (Ideally San Diego would move to the Big Sky and they go 14 with 2 divisions of 7 but I spoke with the former coach of San Diego and that is not their goal and they enjoy their situation where they are at, even though they would be competitive from day 1 in the BS). 11 So with Presby joining and adding these 2 teams, they go to 13 with these 2. Considering SD will stay, that leaves a big issue. Augie will have Sanford money to throw at the conference like there is no tomorrow. UWGB would give 2 bus trips vs Augie being 1 bus trip. Both airports can handle airplanes so that wouldn't be an issue. While I would choose UWGB, I don't want the Augie issue being an issue for the I29 corridor schools, which I can see it being if they are not given a home for football.


(Summit League Football)

Earlier in this thread I mentioned that neither was ideal but are realistically their only options for conferences. OVC won’t take them. Too Far East for Big Sky, too far west for CAA, too far north for the southern based conferences. Even with the MVFC technically having a decent chunk of Midwest schools you still have the issue of travel on the Dakota schools. With the Pioneer, San Diego is a long trip, and again the Pioneer has a decent chunk of Midwest schools but then you leave the Far East schools and USD out of the picture. Neither is ideal by any stretch, but they don’t have many options now do they. It’s not like they can go Indy in FCS now can they?


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[Model Citizen]

A minor update to this that I’ve found out from the inside is that this is looking more like a reality. They’re looking at a Georgia St type situation for the first two years where they rent out Lambeau Field from the Packers until they can get their stadium built fully. No news on conference plans yet but my inside source says that a move to the MVFC or Pioneer is feasible.


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Kind of like saying I'm going to rent an airplane hangar to shelter my new car until I build a garage. Got that car narrowed down to either a Miata or an Expedition.

[Mike296]

Kind of like saying I'm going to rent an airplane hangar to shelter my new car until I build a garage. Got that car narrowed down to either a Miata or an Expedition.

I mean you have a point there. It is strange but they do still need somewhere to play while the stadium is being built so Lambeau does kind of make sense.


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[Model Citizen]

I mean you have a point there. It is strange but they do still need somewhere to play while the stadium is being built so Lambeau does kind of make sense.


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If they have the cash to rent an NFL stadium, more power to them. That's insane overkill for a PFL-sized crowd, which could fit into a high school stadium.

Sounds like this would be a scholarship program. PFL talk is nothing more than bet hedging.

[Thumper 76]

You really think Green Bay will rent out Lambeau with having real grass?


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[Mike296]

You really think Green Bay will rent out Lambeau with having real grass?


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It’s a topic of discussion within so who knows at this point. It’s very plausible since the many area high schools fields are very small for college standards. It’s more likely that they try to share a field with Green Bay East High School and play at City Stadium(former home of the packers) as it’s the only stadium not named Lambeau realistically big enough to hold a college team.

[clenz]

It’s a topic of discussion within so who knows at this point. It’s very plausible since the many area high schools fields are very small for college standards. It’s more likely that they try to share a field with Green Bay East High School and play at City Stadium(former home of the packers) as it’s the only stadium not named Lambeau realistically big enough to hold a college team.
Have you looked around the FCS? Probably 40% of the subdivision play in glorified HS stadiums.

Hell, I'll put UNI in that conversation - UNI shares it's stadium with a HS (the HS is actually building a new school directly west of the dome) and has since it opened. Hell, until the second HS in CF closed it housed 2 high school teams. It hosts 5 regular season high school games and then 20-24 HS playoff games every single year (minimum of 18). UNI has an agreement with the MVFC to create the H/A schedule for MVFC play around the HS games.

[Pinnum]

I have a question. If a non schollie league and has a player with an academic schollie would that count as an athletic schollie?

Depends on how the league defines scholarships. What you're talking about are called Merit Scholarships. Scholarships given to an individual based on merit (athletic, academic, arts, etc).

My understanding is that the whole reason Georgetown refused to play in the Pioneer League is because the Pioneer League allows for non-athletic based merit scholarships and Georgetown doesn't give Merit scholarships. Georgetown follows the Ivy League model for financial aid in which only financial need is considered when providing an applicant with financial aid. So, Georgetown wanted to be in what they considered a true non-scholarship conference. Once the Patriot League went scholarship, they decided to remain because they didn't feel there was any true non-scholarship conference they could join and so they stayed with what they considered academic peers.

The Pioneer League follows the D3 rules. The D3 rules prevent a school from offering any merit scholarships in which athletic participation or skill is considered in the merit criteria. Also, any merit programs (like high SAT, living in a certain state or country, etc) must be consistently distributed to students of the school. If there is a cluster of students in athletics with these scholarships it is a violation. This is why there have been so many instances with teams in the Pioneer league not being eligible for the conference championship due to violating the rules after failing the audit on financial aid. (accidentally or on purpose, who knows...)

[Pinnum]

It’s not like they can go Indy in FCS now can they?



They can go Indy.


A minor update to this that I’ve found out from the inside is that this is looking more like a reality. They’re looking at a Georgia St type situation for the first two years where they rent out Lambeau Field from the Packers until they can get their stadium built fully. No news on conference plans yet but my inside source says that a move to the MVFC or Pioneer is feasible.


I don't understand this.

An NFL Stadium would be way too big for a MVFC team. And frankly, a high school field would be a much better fit, especially if they are playing in the Pioneer League. Why not just rent out a few dates at St. Norbert right up the road? https://www.snc.edu/athletics/facilities/schneiderstadium.html

[dbackjon]

While I agree with this, the Valley won't want to touch Augie, but SDSU and USeD will have to vote for them. NDSU and GFCC might have to, depending on financial aspects, but even if they get only 4, that still won't be enough. With Presby joining though, expect the Pioneer to move to divisions maybe to cut down costs? (Ideally San Diego would move to the Big Sky and they go 14 with 2 divisions of 7 but I spoke with the former coach of San Diego and that is not their goal and they enjoy their situation where they are at, even though they would be competitive from day 1 in the BS). 11 So with Presby joining and adding these 2 teams, they go to 13 with these 2. Considering SD will stay, that leaves a big issue. Augie will have Sanford money to throw at the conference like there is no tomorrow. UWGB would give 2 bus trips vs Augie being 1 bus trip. Both airports can handle airplanes so that wouldn't be an issue. While I would choose UWGB, I don't want the Augie issue being an issue for the I29 corridor schools, which I can see it being if they are not given a home for football.


(Summit League Football)

That's assuming that no other schools have sent feelers to the Pioneer League about starting non-schollie football. If they could grow the league over a period of years, they could eventually have a division centered in the Midwest, and another in the SE.

[Mike296]

They can go Indy.



I don't understand this.

An NFL Stadium would be way too big for a MVFC team. And frankly, a high school field would be a much better fit, especially if they are playing in the Pioneer League. Why not just rent out a few dates at St. Norbert right up the road? https://www.snc.edu/athletics/facilities/schneiderstadium.html

That would also work too. These are just early planning stages that every new team goes through so don’t take everything literally. They have plenty of options now that I’ve dug deeper into the landscape of the Green Bay Area, I mentioned City Stadium earlier, the high school stadiums in GB are actually bigger than I thought they were and would actually fit UWGB perfectly. There’s also your option which would work. You have the option of playing a 1 game only type thing at Lambeau(which would be pretty cool if you ask me). They have options, it’s just figuring out which is the right one for them.

[Bisonoline]

You really think Green Bay will rent out Lambeau with having real grass?


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That might be a tough sell.

[katss07]

How do we know there is actually any real discussion on the inside?

[Go Green]

That might be a tough sell.

I know that it was a different era, but the old LA Coliseum had as many as four teams using it in a season.

[TheKingpin28]

That's assuming that no other schools have sent feelers to the Pioneer League about starting non-schollie football. If they could grow the league over a period of years, they could eventually have a division centered in the Midwest, and another in the SE.Ideally, if you want to play D1 sports, you fund athletic scholarships at or near full level. This whole non-scholly **** needs to end or go down to D2/D3. I know not every team offers the 63 scholarships, but if you can't get it into the 50s+ you need to reevaluate your whole concept of D1.

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[Bisonoline]

I know that it was a different era, but the old LA Coliseum had as many as four teams using it in a season.

Thats a lot of games. The problem with GB is if they have to re-sod the field at the end of the season its pretty cold so I can see footing issues with re-laid sod. In CA their growing season is much different. (thats my story and Im sticking to it):D

[clenz]

Ideally, if you want to play D1 sports, you fund athletic scholarships at or near full level. This whole non-scholly **** needs to end or go down to D2/D3. I know not every team offers the 63 scholarships, but if you can't get it into the 50s+ you need to reevaluate your whole concept of D1.

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If you can't get to 85 you shouldn't be D1 then.xcoffeex

[clenz]

Thats a lot of games. The problem with GB is if they have to re-sod the field at the end of the season its pretty cold so I can see footing issues with re-laid sod. In CA their growing season is much different. (thats my story and Im sticking to it):D
GB switched to a half turf half grass mixture a year ago to help fight off the winter/end of season issues. Have multi million dollar grow lights installed as well to stave off issues. It's supposed to act like grass but maintain like turf. It's also heated now.

I still can't imagine they'd be keen on it, but I know know that 5 extra games a year would make a massive difference with what they switched too.

[Bisonoline]

GB switched to a half turf half grass mixture a year ago to help fight off the winter/end of season issues. Have multi million dollar grow lights installed as well to stave off issues. It's supposed to act like grass but maintain like turf. It's also heated now.

I still can't imagine they'd be keen on it, but I know know that 5 extra games a year would make a massive difference with what they switched too.

Really? I have never heard of the half grass half turf thing. That is really interesting. Wonder how they do that?

[Thumper 76]

I know that it was a different era, but the old LA Coliseum had as many as four teams using it in a season.

Yeah, but Lambeau is holy ground in Wisconsin, and really the Wrigley/Fenway of the NFL, just properly updated. The only non Packers game I can think of there was when the Badgers played LSU and it was a huge deal. I can’t see them allowing UWGB to use it regularly. There’s a decent amount of more realistic options for them to use while they get their own place built.


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[dbackjon]

Ideally, if you want to play D1 sports, you fund athletic scholarships at or near full level. This whole non-scholly **** needs to end or go down to D2/D3. I know not every team offers the 63 scholarships, but if you can't get it into the 50s+ you need to reevaluate your whole concept of D1.

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By that logic, FCS should go away, and everyone in DI should be at the 83 schollie/16 sports/200 scholarship requirement.

What harm does the Pioneer League do? It gives an opportunity for students to play football in college.

[clenz]

Really? I have never heard of the half grass half turf thing. That is really interesting. Wonder how they do that?
I've posted this in another thread - but it was the Yale Bowl turf thread so I doubt you would have seen it

https://www.packers.com/news/new-turf-ready-to-welcome-packers-into-2018-season

GREEN BAY - While it might not be visible to the naked eye, a new playing surface awaits the Packers once the team runs out of the tunnel at Lambeau Field on Saturday for Family Night.

The organization recently completed a five-month reconstruction of Lambeau Field’s turf, transitioning from the GrassMaster polypropylene fibers it installed before the 2007 season to polyethylene-based SIS Grass.

Although Lambeau Field houses the first SIS Grass field in the United States, the technology has grown in popularity on soccer fields throughout the world over the past decade.

Instead of the previous three-to-four-week timetable to stitch the field, a single machine shipped from Japan worked around the clock from July 9-16. It stitched fibers ¾ inch from each other and seven inches deep, sticking up just under an inch above the ground.

Synthetic fibers are intended to provide a safe stabilization for the sand underneath the field, preventing the ground from getting pushed around and becoming uneven over the course of a long season.


“The whole driver of everything is we want a sand-root zone,” fields manager Allen Johnson said. “The only way to get good drainage is to have straight sand, but when you have sand, sand in itself isn’t that stable. Picture the beach and then picture our growing season and 300-pound guys pushing on each other. The grass is going to wear and (you need) something to help stabilize the sand and give it some insurance.”

The heating coils underneath the field allowed construction to begin in February. Roughly 15-16 inches of material was peeled off in layers and discarded to the parking lot near the Fleet Farm gate through a conveyer set up in the stands between sections 130 and 132 in the south end zone.

With the drain tile on the sub-floor remaining in place, more than 3,500 tons of sand were brought into the stadium – approximately 170 dump trucks – and smoothed over the heating and irrigation systems, which are atop a new laser-graded layer of pea gravel.


Staying on schedule, crews replanted sod in spring and proceeded to stitch more than 2,500 miles of synthetic fiber into the Kentucky bluegrass field.

The organization used the opportunity to also rezone the irrigation system, which needed to be tweaked after the microclimate inside the stadium was altered following the South End expansion in 2014.

In doubling the amount of zones, the field crew can now water individual areas of the field when needed. The Packers took a similar approach with their new grow lights, which now can be amplified or reduced in certain areas of the field.

More pea gravel also was installed to shorten the depth of the root zone from 12-13 inches to 10-11, bringing the heat pipes closer to the surface.

[clenz]

Yeah, but Lambeau is holy ground in Wisconsin, and really the Wrigley/Fenway of the NFL, just properly updated. The only non Packers game I can think of there was when the Badgers played LSU and it was a huge deal. I can’t see them allowing UWGB to use it regularly. There’s a decent amount of more realistic options for them to use while they get their own place built.


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Wrigley house the Bears for years....and now ****ty Northwestern and Illinois teams...and wants a bowl game.

[TheKingpin28]

By that logic, FCS should go away, and everyone in DI should be at the 83 schollie/16 sports/200 scholarship requirement.

What harm does the Pioneer League do? It gives an opportunity for students to play football in college.

I get the point of the FCS, which was to create fewer scholarships while creating parity in both leagues. FCS is sanctioned at 63 so my argument stands firm. If you can't afford the 50+ a season, FCS is not where you should be playing.

[clenz]

I get the point of the FCS, which was to create fewer scholarships while creating parity in both leagues. FCS is sanctioned at 63 so my argument stands firm. If you can't afford the 50+ a season, FCS is not where you should be playing.
I once was on the anti PL kick but then I wondered why the issue.

They aren't a threat to the sub division in any way (corruption level or corruption in anyway). They harm no one. They don't want to be FCS (or at least didn't). They were D3 in football. D3 schools bitched about D1 schools playing D3 football and the NCAA created the Dayton Rule.

They "can't play D2 or D3" unless they move their entire athletic department D2 or D3. Good luck telling Dayton or Drake to move their entire athletic programs (meaning their MBB programs as well) D3.

In reality, what harm are they doing to anyone?

[Bisonoline]

I've posted this in another thread - but it was the Yale Bowl turf thread so I doubt you would have seen it

https://www.packers.com/news/new-turf-ready-to-welcome-packers-into-2018-season

GREEN BAY - While it might not be visible to the naked eye, a new playing surface awaits the Packers once the team runs out of the tunnel at Lambeau Field on Saturday for Family Night.

The organization recently completed a five-month reconstruction of Lambeau Field’s turf, transitioning from the GrassMaster polypropylene fibers it installed before the 2007 season to polyethylene-based SIS Grass.

Although Lambeau Field houses the first SIS Grass field in the United States, the technology has grown in popularity on soccer fields throughout the world over the past decade.

Instead of the previous three-to-four-week timetable to stitch the field, a single machine shipped from Japan worked around the clock from July 9-16. It stitched fibers ¾ inch from each other and seven inches deep, sticking up just under an inch above the ground.

Synthetic fibers are intended to provide a safe stabilization for the sand underneath the field, preventing the ground from getting pushed around and becoming uneven over the course of a long season.


“The whole driver of everything is we want a sand-root zone,” fields manager Allen Johnson said. “The only way to get good drainage is to have straight sand, but when you have sand, sand in itself isn’t that stable. Picture the beach and then picture our growing season and 300-pound guys pushing on each other. The grass is going to wear and (you need) something to help stabilize the sand and give it some insurance.”

The heating coils underneath the field allowed construction to begin in February. Roughly 15-16 inches of material was peeled off in layers and discarded to the parking lot near the Fleet Farm gate through a conveyer set up in the stands between sections 130 and 132 in the south end zone.

With the drain tile on the sub-floor remaining in place, more than 3,500 tons of sand were brought into the stadium – approximately 170 dump trucks – and smoothed over the heating and irrigation systems, which are atop a new laser-graded layer of pea gravel.


Staying on schedule, crews replanted sod in spring and proceeded to stitch more than 2,500 miles of synthetic fiber into the Kentucky bluegrass field.

The organization used the opportunity to also rezone the irrigation system, which needed to be tweaked after the microclimate inside the stadium was altered following the South End expansion in 2014.

In doubling the amount of zones, the field crew can now water individual areas of the field when needed. The Packers took a similar approach with their new grow lights, which now can be amplified or reduced in certain areas of the field.

More pea gravel also was installed to shorten the depth of the root zone from 12-13 inches to 10-11, bringing the heat pipes closer to the surface.







Wow. Thanks for sharing. That is way cool.

[dbackjon]

I get the point of the FCS, which was to create fewer scholarships while creating parity in both leagues. FCS is sanctioned at 63 so my argument stands firm. If you can't afford the 50+ a season, FCS is not where you should be playing.

Non-schollies are only in FCS since there is not a third level. While the Patriot and NEC are now higher scholarship, they didn't used to be. And if the Pioneer can grow enough, non-schollie can split off and have it's own championship.

[clenz]

It's tough to find a good photo of the turf from the AZ/GB game in December of 2018 but this was the final home game for GB last year in December.

Even from this shot look how good the field looks

https://static.clubs.nfl.com/image/private/t_editorial_landscape_8_desktop_mobile/f_auto/cardinals/heysxq0mtji7dwsw3gp1.jpg


It was a noticeable difference on TV.

[Pinnum]

Really? I have never heard of the half grass half turf thing. That is really interesting. Wonder how they do that?

There are a few different products out there now but the one I am most familiar with is XtraGrass.

Here is a video on how it works. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVj1rQxePyw

This has been most popular with soccer training facilities around the world.

XtraGrass (and other products like it) can not take the demand that artificial surfaces can take so they aren't very good for multi-use fields on high schools or colleges but it extends the use on all grass fields while still giving the full feel of the grass field.

A lot of the soccer training fields, I know of that use it, actually only have the artificial portion in front of the goal or down the center third of the field. So it is only used where the field gets the most wear and tear.

Great product.

[Bisonoline]

It's tough to find a good photo of the turf from the AZ/GB game in December of 2018 but this was the final home game for GB last year in December.

Even from this shot look how good the field looks

https://static.clubs.nfl.com/image/private/t_editorial_landscape_8_desktop_mobile/f_auto/cardinals/heysxq0mtji7dwsw3gp1.jpg


It was a noticeable difference on TV.

It does look good. Real grass and synthetic grass together. Who would a thought.

[Bisonoline]

There are a few different products out there now but the one I am most familiar with is XtraGrass.

Here is a video on how it works. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVj1rQxePyw

This has been most popular with soccer training facilities around the world.

XtraGrass (and other products like it) can not take the demand that artificial surfaces can take so they aren't very good for multi-use fields on high schools or colleges but it extends the use on all grass fields while still giving the full feel of the grass field.

A lot of the soccer training fields, I know of that use it, actually only have the artificial portion in front of the goal or down the center third of the field. So it is only used where the field gets the most wear and tear.

Great product.


Video was great. Thanks.

[uni88]

It does look good. Real grass and synthetic grass together. Who would a thought.Cyborg grass.

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[dbackjon]

Cyborg grass.

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Resistance is futile

[DFW HOYA]

Non-schollies are only in FCS since there is not a third level. While the Patriot and NEC are now higher scholarship, they didn't used to be. And if the Patriot can grow enough, non-schollie can split off and have it's own championship.

There are 19 non-scholarship teams.

As to the claim that "the Patriot can grow enough", this may be a stretch. It's the smallest conference in the subdivision and has been unable to attract expansion candidates.

[dbackjon]

There are 19 non-scholarship teams.

As to the claim that "the Patriot can grow enough", this may be a stretch. It's the smallest conference in the subdivision and has been unable to attract expansion candidates.

Sorry - meant the Pioneer - will fix

[Model Citizen]

There are 19 non-scholarship teams.


There will only be 18, until the last scholarship player at Presbyterian is gone.

Low scholarship teams are still scholarship teams. That's why Ben Niesner will transfer from Portland State to Valpo and be immediately eligible. Had he transferred to Georgetown, he would have to sit out a year.

14.5.5.2.10 (a)

[NY Crusader 2010]

There will only be 18, until the last scholarship player at Presbyterian is gone.

Low scholarship teams are still scholarship teams. That's why Ben Niesner will transfer from Portland State to Valpo and be immediately eligible. Had he transferred to Georgetown, he would have to sit out a year.

14.5.5.2.10 (a)

Interesting. You learn something new every day.