Boston Goes Back to Back to Back to Back!!!

[AZGrizFan]

4 in a ROW!
xbowx xbowx xbowx xbowx xbowx xbowx xbowx xbowx xbowx xbowx xbowx xbowx xbowx xbowx xbowx

Yankees SUCK!!!

[Fresno St. Alum]

Maybe the Yankees should throw something low and away so it stays in the park

[dbackjon]

xhurrayx

[appfan2008]

that really is truly impressive...

the yankees really have some major pitching problems!

[youwouldno]

That was fun to watch.

[Cleets]

3 really tight games (unlike the last series where the Yanks Bombed the Sox)


Observation: Yanks at 66% strength played the sox to the edge every game..
Observation: Yanks at 100% equals 3 wins to the Yanks...

Just an FYI: see me in October.. for more details...



-

[I Bleed Purple]

I hate this overhyped series and rivalry.

Was cool to watch the highlight of it, however.

[lucchesicourt]

Cleets,

The previous series the Yanks won 5 in a row in Boston. But, you seem to have Forgotten that Boston played the Yanks, without Ramirez, Ortiz, Varitek, ans Wakefield (the yankee killer). Now, lets remove A-Rod, Jeter, from yestwerdau's lineup and give you pitching back and I am sure the Yanks would not have scored as many runs either. Though I agree Boston also would have scored fewer too. But, as I recall A-Rod hit two homers and drove in at least 5 runs, and Jeter hit the only other Yankee homer in the series.
Cleets memory of what went on during the 5 game Red Sox lost seems to be failing. It's not like the Sox were at full strenth either.

[JoltinJoe]

3 really tight games (unlike the last series where the Yanks Bombed the Sox)


Observation: Yanks at 66% strength played the sox to the edge every game..
Observation: Yanks at 100% equals 3 wins to the Yanks...

Just an FYI: see me in October.. for more details...



-

If I were a Sox fan, there was a lot about this series that would concern me -- notwithstanding that they beat up a couple of Double A pitchers.

[AZGrizFan]

If I were a Sox fan, there was a lot about this series that would concern me -- notwithstanding that they beat up a couple of Double A pitchers.

If I were a Yankees fan, there was a lot about this series that would concern me---not the least of which is we have to throw a couple of AA pitchers to the wolves as part of our $200 million payroll. xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx

[appfan2008]

If I were a Yankees fan, there was a lot about this series that would concern me---not the least of which is we have to throw a couple of AA pitchers to the wolves as part of our $200 million payroll. xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx
the first thing a yankees fan should be concerned with is that horendous staff... rotation and bullpen... gosh darn awful

[JoltinJoe]

If I were a Yankees fan, there was a lot about this series that would concern me---not the least of which is we have to throw a couple of AA pitchers to the wolves as part of our $200 million payroll. xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx

The Yanks pitched Karstens and Wright because Mussina, Wang, and Pavano are injured.

A staff of Wang, Mussina, Pettite, Pavano and Igawa is going to be just fine. And wait until Clemens joins it.

As I said if I were a Sox fan, I'd be concerned that the Yankee line-up, missing two big hitters (Matsui and Posada) and with another at about 80 percent (Damon) made their "big three" starters look pretty average. Not every lineup looks like the KC Royals. Too bad Karstens and Wright couldn't hold the leads they were given.

Boston's pitching is not as good as they think. Schilling is 41 and will slow down as the season progresses (as he did last year). Beckett pitched to a 5.04 ERA last year and even if he does a run better this year, he's still a No. 3 guy. And Dice-K, from what I see, has very average command. As a result, good hitters are going to get to him especially once they've seen more than once.

Wang is vastly superior to any of these guys.

But it's April. In October, we'll be talking about an 11th straight AL East title for the Yanks.

[PaladinFan]

Did anyone else notice Baltimore is, I think, a half game behind Boston? No one has even mentioned them.

[Col Hogan]

If I were a Sox fan, there was a lot about this series that would concern me -- notwithstanding that they beat up a couple of Double A pitchers.

I follow the Sox real close, so on the surface, you are correct...but let's look at what really happened that actually eases my concerns about the Sox...

A couple of players (Manny, The Captain) appeared to break out of hitting slumps in this series. This bodes well for the remainder of the season if they continue.

The Bull Pen has proven to be as strong or stronger than expected. Even if the Yankess return to 100% on their starting rotation, their bull pen is still weak, except for Mariano (and the Sox have his number).

While the starting pitching was not bad, it was not over-powering as some people would have us believe it is...it could be over-powering in the future, but wasn't this weekend. But with the bull pen as strong as it is, does the starting pitching need to be over-powering?

I look forward to this next weekend...if the Sox can win two out of three...it's going to be a long season for the Bombers...

[AZGrizFan]

The Yanks pitched Karstens and Wright because Mussina, Wang, and Pavano are injured.

A staff of Wang, Mussina, Pettite, Pavano and Igawa is going to be just fine. And wait until Clemens joins it.

As I said if I were a Sox fan, I'd be concerned that the Yankee line-up, missing two big hitters (Matsui and Posada) and with another at about 80 percent (Damon) made their "big three" starters look pretty average. Not every lineup looks like the KC Royals. Too bad Karstens and Wright couldn't hold the leads they were given.

Boston's pitching is not as good as they think. Schilling is 41 and will slow down as the season progresses (as he did last year). Beckett pitched to a 5.04 ERA last year and even if he does a run better this year, he's still a No. 3 guy. And Dice-K, from what I see, has very average command. As a result, good hitters are going to get to him especially once they've seen more than once.

Wang is vastly superior to any of these guys.

But it's April. In October, we'll be talking about an 11th straight AL East title for the Yanks.


I'll give you Pettitte, and I agree Wang is superior to anything Boston can throw at you, but these other guys are average or washed up. These numbers do NOT scare opposing hitters ====>

IP W L S BB SO ERA WHIP
Mussina 6.0 0 1 0 4 4 9.00 2.50
Igawa 16.1 1 0 0 6 10 6.06 1.35
Pavano 11.1 1 0 0 2 4 4.76 1.24

Pavano may be a bigger bust than Russ Ortiz was for the D-Backs (and that's saying ALOT!). Igawa is a journeyman, and Mussina is slightly above average at best.

[JoltinJoe]

I'll give you Pettitte, and I agree Wang is superior to anything Boston can throw at you, but these other guys are average or washed up. These numbers do NOT scare opposing hitters ====>

IP W L S BB SO ERA WHIP
Mussina 6.0 0 1 0 4 4 9.00 2.50
Igawa 16.1 1 0 0 6 10 6.06 1.35
Pavano 11.1 1 0 0 2 4 4.76 1.24

Pavano may be a bigger bust than Russ Ortiz was for the D-Backs (and that's saying ALOT!). Igawa is a journeyman, and Mussina is slightly above average at best.

Mike Mussina is "slightly above average?" This is a guy who has 239 career wins, a .639 WP (135 losses), and a career 3.6 ERA (pitching in the AL and in Camden Yards for a good part of his career). Mussina is looking HOF worthy with three or so more solid seasons. Last year, he was 15-7 with a 3.51 ERA -- very solid No. 3 guy. Frankly, Mussina's career numbers look much better than Schilling's. He's a lock for 15-16 wins. How many No. 3 guys can you say that about?

And here's the facts about Igawa. After one bad start (in which his numbers looked much worse than his stuff), Igawa has looked good. In his last 11 1/3, he has allowed just four earned runs and walked three batters. Very solid back of the rotation guy whose current numbers are distorted by a very bad first outing.

Pavano is going to get 12-14 wins if he stays healthy. Mark my words. When he's healthy, he's an above-average pitcher.

[AZGrizFan]

Mike Mussina is "slightly above average?" This is a guy who has 239 career wins, a .639 WP (135 losses), and a career 3.6 ERA (pitching in the AL and in Camden Yards for a good part of his career). Mussina is looking HOF worthy with three or so more solid seasons. Last year, he was 15-7 with a 3.51 ERA -- very solid No. 3 guy. Frankly, Mussina's career numbers look much better than Schilling's. He's a lock for 15-16 wins. How many No. 3 guys can you say that about?

And here's the facts about Igawa. After one bad start (in which his numbers looked much worse than his stuff), Igawa has looked good. In his last 11 1/3, he has allowed just four earned runs and walked three batters. Very solid back of the rotation guy whose current numbers are distorted by a very bad first outing.

Pavano is going to get 12-14 wins if he stays healthy. Mark my words. When he's healthy, he's an above-average pitcher.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

[Col Hogan]

Did anyone else notice Baltimore is, I think, a half game behind Boston? No one has even mentioned them.

A game and a half behind Boston...and yea, they are looking pretty good right now. What I wonder is, can the O's maintain this pace? They have good power...hit for good average as a team...but can their pitching hold up?

I'd love to see the O's maintain this pace, because I have tickets for the Sox/O's series in Baltimore in August.

[JoltinJoe]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

So we'll substitute Roger Clemens in Pavano's spot. :p

[UNHWildCats]

OK Joe let me see if i get this right.

We can write of Beckett as nothing more then a #3 guy after a rough transition year from the NL, but at the same time we have to praise the hell outta Wang after 1 full season in the majors?????

Wang isnt superior then Schilling, Beckett and Matsuzaka.

But those three maybe not superior then him either. Too early to tell.

[UNHWildCats]

I also see that Joe can write off Schilling because he's old but then dips right back in and uses career stats to prove Mussina is more then average at this time in his career.

where that damn homer pic????

[JoltinJoe]

OK Joe let me see if i get this right.

We can write of Beckett as nothing more then a #3 guy after a rough transition year from the NL, but at the same time we have to praise the hell outta Wang after 1 full season in the majors?????

Wang isnt superior then Schilling, Beckett and Matsuzaka.

But those three maybe not superior then him either. Too early to tell.

Chien Ming Wang has the very best heavy sinker I have ever seen. His sinking fastball routinely hits 94 MPH on the gun. Maybe that's not overpowering enough to cause batters to miss but it sure gets a lot of grounders. Almost 65% of his outs last year came on ground balls. That's two outs per inning on grounders.


You can throw out all that Bill James crap about how his success last year is a statisitical anomoly because no pitcher has ever sustained that level of success striking out as few batter as Wang does. You can strike out fewer batters when you induce two or three double plays every start. And you throw fewer pitches to boot.

Wang's sinker is a special pitch. Someday we may talk about his sinker the way we talk about Blyleven's curve.

[JoltinJoe]

I also see that Joe can write off Schilling because he's old but then dips right back in and uses career stats to prove Mussina is more then average at this time in his career.

where that damn homer pic????

Schiling is a 41-year old power pitcher who incidentally doesn't look like he's in the best of shape anymore.

Mussina is three years younger and is not a power pitcher.

[UNHWildCats]

Schiling is a 41-year old power pitcher who incidentally doesn't look like he's in the best of shape anymore.

Mussina is three years younger and is not a power pitcher.

Clemens is a 44 yr old power pitcher who hasnt looked like hes in the best shape for 5 years and look at what hes still able to do.

Can Mussina still pitch effectively? Yes

Can Schilling? Yes

Can Wang replicate 2006? Yes

Will he? Dunno its not guaranteed

can you list in order how you see the Yankees starting 5 when there all healthy?

[GannonFan]

Schiling is a 41-year old power pitcher who incidentally doesn't look like he's in the best of shape anymore.

Mussina is three years younger and is not a power pitcher.

When was Schilling ever in shape anyway? He had a few extra pounds around his waist even back in '93.

Mussina will be okay for the Yanks during the season, but as the Yanks have found out since 2000, they just don't have the postseason pitchers they need to win the whole thing again. Wang is their only legit big time pitcher right now - Petitte is pretty close to that, although he's put some age on too since he was dominant. After those two what do the Yanks have? Mussina is average in the post season, nothing more, and Pavano can't stay healthy enough to pitch virtually at all. And waiting for Clemens to sign with the Yanks just looks eerily similar to what the Yanks have done every year since they haven't won it all - dream about picking up Zito, or Willis, or Randy Johnson before the trade deadline, and they never seem to get it done. Clemens is no sure thing, especially if the Yanks aren't a sure thing. The Yankee lineup is probably enough to get them to the postseason, again, but again, pitching will see them quickly out of the playoffs. But hey, maybe Yankee fans have turned down their expectations and once when they were only satisfied with World Series titles maybe now they are content with division titles only??? :p

[JoltinJoe]

When was Schilling ever in shape anyway? He had a few extra pounds around his waist even back in '93.

Mussina will be okay for the Yanks during the season, but as the Yanks have found out since 2000, they just don't have the postseason pitchers they need to win the whole thing again. Wang is their only legit big time pitcher right now - Petitte is pretty close to that, although he's put some age on too since he was dominant. After those two what do the Yanks have? Mussina is average in the post season, nothing more, and Pavano can't stay healthy enough to pitch virtually at all. And waiting for Clemens to sign with the Yanks just looks eerily similar to what the Yanks have done every year since they haven't won it all - dream about picking up Zito, or Willis, or Randy Johnson before the trade deadline, and they never seem to get it done. Clemens is no sure thing, especially if the Yanks aren't a sure thing. The Yankee lineup is probably enough to get them to the postseason, again, but again, pitching will see them quickly out of the playoffs. But hey, maybe Yankee fans have turned down their expectations and once when they were only satisfied with World Series titles maybe now they are content with division titles only??? :p

I've seen you say a few times that the Yankee pitching has not been good enough to win since 2000. That is not so. The Yankee pitching was certainly good enough to win in 2001-2003. In 2001, the Yanks could have just as easily won it all. In 2002, their pitching was fine but their starters had some bad outings against the Angels. And the pitching was good enough to win in 2003 but the Marlins just came up bigger.

Your observation really applies after 2003, when Pettitte and Clemens left and were replaced by Kevin Brown and Javier Vasquez. Since 2004, the Yankees pitching has not been good enough.

It is not good enough now to win it all although it will get them to the playoffs again. But this staff is probably better than any staff since 2003. If they pick up Clemens, a top four in the playoffs of Wang, Clemens, Pettitte and Mussina is probably good enough to give them a real chance.

[JoltinJoe]

Travis, Clemens is husky but not out-of-shape. On the other hand, Schilling looks heavier this year to me than even last year. I don't think it's muscle. I read somewhere (I think) that the Sox were not happy about Schilling's conditioning this spring.

The Yankee top five go: Wang, Pettitte, Mussina, Igawa, and Pavano.

[GannonFan]

I've seen you say a few times that the Yankee pitching has not been good enough to win since 2000. That is not so. The Yankee pitching was certainly good enough to win in 2001-2003. In 2001, the Yanks could have just as easily won it all. In 2002, their pitching was fine but their starters had some bad outings against the Angels. And the pitching was good enough to win in 2003 but the Marlins just came up bigger.

Your observation really applies after 2003, when Pettitte and Clemens left and were replaced by Kevin Brown and Javier Vasquez. Since 2004, the Yankees pitching has not been good enough.

It is not good enough now to win it all although it will get them to the playoffs again. But this staff is probably better than any staff since 2003. If they pick up Clemens, a top four in the playoffs of Wang, Clemens, Pettitte and Mussina is probably good enough to give them a real chance.

2001 they got bailed out by the Diamondbacks not having a great bullpen and by some real clutch hitting by the Yanks. 2002 you're right, the starters had some bad outings against the Angels - but good starting pitching doesn't have that happen. And 2003 they got fortunate that the Red Sox came up small in the ALCS, but yes, the Marlins just had better pitching (than anyone) that year.

As for that starting 4, if Clemens even becomes a Yank (I wouldn't hold my breath on that one) I still don't know it it's good enough, especially with the Yank bullpen being perhaps at its weakest since 2000 (and I'm not even including Rivera who I think would be in top form come the postseason - you still have to get to him though). Wang is fine, but Clemens and Pettitte couldn't pitch the Astros to the title and Mussina is just adequate in the postseason, nothing more. Couple that with the Yank's lineup not being dominant in the postseason and it could be another divisional banner being raised next year in leui of the more important prize.

[UNHWildCats]

just my opinion here mind you...

Wang = Schilling
Pettitte = Beckett
Mussina < Matsuzaka
Igawa at best = Wakefield. More likely < Wakefield
Pavano = Tavarez for now < Lester ina few weeks when hes activated from the DL

[JoltinJoe]

2001 they got bailed out by the Diamondbacks not having a great bullpen and by some real clutch hitting by the Yanks. 2002 you're right, the starters had some bad outings against the Angels - but good starting pitching doesn't have that happen. And 2003 they got fortunate that the Red Sox came up small in the ALCS, but yes, the Marlins just had better pitching (than anyone) that year.

As for that starting 4, if Clemens even becomes a Yank (I wouldn't hold my breath on that one) I still don't know it it's good enough, especially with the Yank bullpen being perhaps at its weakest since 2000 (and I'm not even including Rivera who I think would be in top form come the postseason - you still have to get to him though). Wang is fine, but Clemens and Pettitte couldn't pitch the Astros to the title and Mussina is just adequate in the postseason, nothing more. Couple that with the Yank's lineup not being dominant in the postseason and it could be another divisional banner being raised next year in leui of the more important prize.

Mussina has pitched 135 career post-season innings and has a 3.4 ERA. That's quality pitching. I agree his W-L of 7-8 doesn't reflect how well he has pitched in post-season play. You may recall a number of games where he has pitched well in tough luck.

[lucchesicourt]

In post season and you have a losing record, it means you have been outpitched more times than you have won.Mussina is the Yankees best pitcher, if healthy.Clemens is NOT a Yankee so we can forget him for now (he is also not a Red Sox pitcher), as for Wang he is average at best (the fact the Yankees have a strong offense helps his record), Petitt is slighly above average, and Pavano (former Boston pitcher) is not very good. He wasn't then and he is not now a decent pitcher. If the Yankees go to their bullpen, they aren't very good except for Rivera, yet he has had a tough time againstthe Sox. The Sox pitching is pretty much up and down, but the do LEAD the league in pitching thuis far. Yes, better than the Yankees and everyone else. If the Sox pitching is bad, what does that say about everyone else's pitching? The simple fact is their pitching is what is winning games right now, not their hitting.

[JoltinJoe]

In post season and you have a losing record, it means you have been outpitched more times than you have won.Mussina is the Yankees best pitcher, if healthy.Clemens is NOT a Yankee so we can forget him for now (he is also not a Red Sox pitcher), as for Wang he is average at best (the fact the Yankees have a strong offense helps his record), Petitt is slighly above average, and Pavano (former Boston pitcher) is not very good. He wasn't then and he is not now a decent pitcher. If the Yankees go to their bullpen, they aren't very good except for Rivera, yet he has had a tough time againstthe Sox. The Sox pitching is pretty much up and down, but the do LEAD the league in pitching thuis far. Yes, better than the Yankees and everyone else. If the Sox pitching is bad, what does that say about everyone else's pitching? The simple fact is their pitching is what is winning games right now, not their hitting.

I want what you're drinking.

Let's see. 135 career post-season innings with a 3.4 ERA. You dismiss that.

A guy with 187 career wins at age 34 is dismissed as "slightly above average."

A guy who won 19 games last year with a 3.6 ERA is said to have benefitted from his team's offense. (Honestly, you do a 3.6 ERA in the AL, you have a good chance of winning 19 games no matter who you pitch for).

Save your breath. Let's talk in October.

[JoltinJoe]

just my opinion here mind you...

Wang = Schilling
Pettitte = Beckett
Mussina < Matsuzaka
Igawa at best = Wakefield. More likely < Wakefield
Pavano = Tavarez for now < Lester ina few weeks when hes activated from the DL

My take.

Wang > Schilling

Let me ask you: as a Sox fan, would you trade up Schilling even up for Wang? I'd absolutely flip out if that deal were made so I think I can honestly say I think Wang > Schilling.

Pettitte > Beckett

Until further notice, you have to take a guy who is still getting it done 187 wins into his career and his 13th season over a guy who has the "unfilled potential" label hanging over his head. Beckett had two memorable games in October 2003 and a promising season in 2005. Last year's 5.01 ERA can't be ignored.

Mussina > Matsuzaka

Caveat: when healthy. But Matsuzaka has got to prove he can pitch in the bigs. We already know Mussina can. He is a potential HOFer.

Igawa < Wakefield

Igawa is a wild card. Wakefield is a proven big leaguer and an enviable No. 4 starter.

Fifth starters. Hard to say right now.

[UNHWildCats]

My take.

Wang > Schilling

Let me ask you: as a Sox fan, would you trade up Schilling even up for Wang? I'd absolutely flip out if that deal were made so I think I can honestly say I think Wang > Schilling.

Well duh, Wang is gonna be a good pitcher for the next 15 years Schilling will be home in two not fair to ask about a trade there.

Pettitte > Beckett

Until further notice, you have to take a guy who is still getting it done 187 wins into his career and his 13th season over a guy who has the "unfilled potential" label hanging over his head. Beckett had two memorable games in October 2003 and a promising season in 2005. Last year's 5.01 ERA can't be ignored.

He was getting it done. HE wasnt exactly lights out last year and he moves back into the more dangerous AL. Beckett will have a much better season the Pettitte!

Mussina > Matsuzaka

Caveat: when healthy. But Matsuzaka has got to prove he can pitch in the bigs. We already know Mussina can. He is a potential HOFer.

Again your going by a long career of achievements, that doesnt mean he will be as domiant as he has been.

Igawa < Wakefield

Igawa is a wild card. Wakefield is a proven big leaguer and an enviable No. 4 starter.

Can't argue here. I like Igawa, I want him to have a sucessful career outside of appearances vs Boston. I think when the season is done Wakefield and Igawa will compare very nicely.

Fifth starters. Hard to say right now.

Indeed, too much possibilites to come. Wakefield could move down if Clemens comes to Boston, Igawa could if he goes to NY.

If Clemens goes to Houston and this remains Lester vs PAvano. Lester takes it.

My responses in bold :)

This civility stuff is nice huh. Thats why I like the YF vs SF blog most of the time the fans are civil with each other, though the Matsuzaka debate is a little ugly today lol

[JoltinJoe]

My responses in bold :)

This civility stuff is nice huh. Thats why I like the YF vs SF blog most of the time the fans are civil with each other, though the Matsuzaka debate is a little ugly today lol

I enjoy discussing baseball with Sox fans. Despite the deficient choice in rooting causes, Sox fans tend to be among the most knowledgeable and passionate fans of the game.

This is from the so funny because it's true file (I assume you've seen this already, but what the heck).

Red Sox Masertcard Commercial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVyhXlPCI4Q)

[UNHWildCats]

I enjoy discussing baseball with Sox fans. Despite the deficient choice in rooting causes, Sox fans tend to be among the most knowledgeable and passionate fans of the game.

This is from the so funny because it's true file (I assume you've seen this already, but what the heck).

Red Sox Masertcard Commercial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVyhXlPCI4Q)

The benefit of all the Octobers with nothing to do xlolx xlolx xlolx

love the commercial. have it saved somewhere on my computer

[Col Hogan]

The benefit of all the Octobers with nothing to do xlolx xlolx xlolx

love the commercial. have it saved somewhere on my computer

The commercial sits on my Dell desk top...play it often.

Got to admit, it was fun greeting the Yankee fans at work this morning...and I have enjoyed both Joe and Travis in this on-going debate. Joe, you can't win...but I love it...:D :D :D :D

[JoltinJoe]

Joe, you can't win...but I love it...:D :D :D :D

Hey, I've won 26 times.

BTW, this is an awfully big ring for a second-place finish. Imagine how big it would have been if they had finished in first.;)

http://soxmachine.com/images/rsring.jpg

[lucchesicourt]

If you want to compare pitching stats, I think the best number to use is ERA-though great defense and size of the ballpark helps this to some extent. But, since you're talking about career numbers, Schilling's are far superior to those of Mussina, but I would take a healthy Mussina over an aging Schilling today- so this is a toss up. Becketts career ERA is 3.81 and this compares very favorably with Pettit's of 3.79- little difference. Wang (for his short career-jury still out to some extent)- has a much better overall ERA to Wakefield of 3.77 to Wake's 4.28 (Wake is either on or off-never know what to expect- he's an inconsistant pitcher due to his knuckleball). I will totally skip a Dice K to Pavano comparison as it's to early in his career.
The Yanks problem lies in its injuries-these tend to linger all year long-it's hard to get healthy and stay there.
The Sox have young pitchers that have demonstrated better MLB stuff than the Yankees young guns so far.

And when I say slightly above average, the next level is Santana stuff (hasn't done it long enough to qualify for the next level which I am sure he will). Then comes great pitchers like Gibson, Marichal, Koufax, Ryan, Clemens, Carlton, etc. yes, I have missed naming a few
others. Mussina does not belong in this class of pitchers nor does Schilling (also a slighly above average pitcher), even if they make the HOF.
A low ERA is not a guarantee of winning, nor is the number of wins a good inicator of ERA.

[JoltinJoe]

If you want to compare pitching stats, I think the best number to use is ERA-though great defense and size of the ballpark helps this to some extent. But, since you're talking about career numbers, Schilling's are far superior to those of Mussina, but I would take a healthy Mussina over an aging Schilling today- so this is a toss up. Becketts career ERA is 3.81 and this compares very favorably with Pettit's of 3.79- little difference. Wang (for his short career-jury still out to some extent)- has a much better overall ERA to Wakefield of 3.77 to Wake's 4.28 (Wake is either on or off-never know what to expect- he's an inconsistant pitcher due to his knuckleball). I will totally skip a Dice K to Pavano comparison as it's to early in his career.
The Yanks problem lies in its injuries-these tend to linger all year long-it's hard to get healthy and stay there.
The Sox have young pitchers that have demonstrated better MLB stuff than the Yankees young guns so far.

And when I say slightly above average, the next level is Santana stuff (hasn't done it long enough to qualify for the next level which I am sure he will). Then comes great pitchers like Gibson, Marichal, Koufax, Ryan, Clemens, Carlton, etc. yes, I have missed naming a few
others. Mussina does not belong in this class of pitchers nor does Schilling (also a slighly above average pitcher), even if they make the HOF.
A low ERA is not a guarantee of winning, nor is the number of wins a good inicator of ERA.

Mussina has better career numbers than Schilling. He almost 4 years younger, has 20 more career wins (239 v. 209), four fewer losses (135 v. 139), and his ERA is only slightly higher despite pitching in the American League for his entire career (3.64 v. 3.44). Given the league difference in ERA (Mussina League 4.53 v. Schilling League ERA 4.36), that's a wash.

There's no comparison between Pettitte and Beckett at this point. As for the ERA comparison you try to make, although their ERAs are about the same, the league average for Pettite is 4.54 throughout his career, while the league average for Beckett is 4.19.

[lucchesicourt]

Like I said wins vs. losses is deceiving. ERA is the best way to judge a pitcher's efeectiveness. A pitcher can win 20 games with a poor ERA. And apitcher with an excellent ERA can lose more than they win.

[lucchesicourt]

Neither Mussina nor Schilling are much different, except for the teams for whom they pitched. Beckett is not awesome at this time nor is Wang. However, the current stats, though early, favor Boston. Unless your a Yankee fan, imn which case you will argue the Yankee's pitching stats are better than Boston's at this time.
Sure, I'm a Sox fan, but at leasr I can admit the Yankees "O" is much better than Boston's right now though I expect Boston to improve. And, I am sure you expect the Yankees pitching to get better. But, IO am ONLY looking at the facts I see, and NOT being biased as best I can. Obviously, you are being a little biased towards NY.