Can I Borrow Some PreWorkout Brah?

[geaux_sioux]

https://www.grandforksherald.com/sports/football/4564407-ndsu-former-football-player-disagree-who-supplied-supplement-likely-led

[POD Knows]

https://www.grandforksherald.com/sports/football/4564407-ndsu-former-football-player-disagree-who-supplied-supplement-likely-led
Used throughout the locker room, 18 kids get tested and one gets pinched. Interesting

[BisonFan02]

I use pre-workouts that I'm 100% sure are not NCAA compliant....you can buy them at any GNC, complete nutrition, bodybuilding.com....etc. Its a stimulant.

[Bisonoline]

The UND board is jizzing all over themselves.

[Bisonoline]

Used throughout the locker room, 18 kids get tested and one gets pinched. Interesting

Not to mention after every playoff game and were tested multiple times during the season.

[Bisonoline]

https://www.grandforksherald.com/sports/football/4564407-ndsu-former-football-player-disagree-who-supplied-supplement-likely-led

Doing SVs bidding I see. xthumbsupx

[F'N Hawks]

Not to mention after every playoff game and were tested multiple times during the season.

Tested multiple times by who? Then, who received and graded the results?

[JSUSoutherner]

Tested multiple times by who? Then, who received and graded the results?

#CreatineConspiracy :D

[BisonFan02]

https://www.bodybuilding.com/store/goalpreworkout.htm

[geaux_sioux]

Doing SVs bidding I see. xthumbsupx
I couldn’t resist because of that weight room post of mine that I still get **** for.

[Professor Chaos]

Tested multiple times by who? Then, who received and graded the results?
18 players are randomly tested by the NCAA after every playoff game. NDSU has played in 31 playoff games in the last 8 years. That's 558 tests and this is the first failed one that I've heard of.

That said I think Robbins got screwed in this deal. I tend to believe that he was given this by someone he trusted, that person hasn't owned up to it, and he's losing his senior season (and possibly scholarship) over it. However, if he and his mom are going to out a "trusted staff member" just spit out who it was because going about it this way lets speculation run rampant about every coach on that staff to fit whatever theories there are out there about who done it.

[BisonFan02]

I couldn’t resist because of that weight room post of mine that I still get **** for.

If only you guys were good enough to bother testing...... :D

[Bisonoline]

Tested multiple times by who? Then, who received and graded the results?

Tested by the same company that does the NCAA testing.

[uofmman1122]

https://www.bodybuilding.com/store/goalpreworkout.htm
Seems like (and maybe I'm not doing the right kind of research) pretty much anything from BB.com would be legal, unless the player took more than the recommended dose 10 minutes before being tested (if it was indeed caffeine that caused the positive test, which is​ a NCAA banned substance at higher doses).

If it's not that...

...then he's probably not taking a "normal" pre-workout. *shrug*

[F'N Hawks]

Tested by the same company that does the NCAA testing.

Right. Then, where are the results sent and interpreted? The company doesn't send them to the NCAA.

[BEAR]

So the kid and mom are saying any banned substance in his body was provided by NDSU coaching/fitness staff? NDSU denies? Did I read that right?

[Bisonator]

As they say there are always 3 sides to every story. Probably never will get the truth but I do find it hard to believe that this was being handed out by NDSU and he ends up being the only kid to fail the test.

As far as the NCAA policy and punishment, a full year suspension seems a bit harsh to me on some deal like this and a first offense but it is what it is I guess.

[Professor Chaos]

So the kid and mom are saying any banned substance in his body was provided by NDSU coaching/fitness staff? NDSU denies? Did I read that right?
Player and mom are saying it was provided by a "trusted staff member" and NDSU is saying it was provided by another student. I think one side is probably stretching the definition of the person they claim provided it but I'm a little frustrated that (former) player and mom don't just spit it out if they're going to claim it was provided by a "trusted staff member". Without that it can be guilt be association for every coach on that staff which leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

[BEAR]

Player and mom are saying it was provided by a "trusted staff member" and NDSU is saying it was provided by another student. I think one side is probably stretching the definition of the person they claim provided it but I'm a little frustrated that (former) player and mom don't just spit it out if they're going to claim it was provided by a "trusted staff member". Without that it can be guilt be association for every coach on that staff which leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

That and now I have the image of NDSU doing things to their players like a true FBS program.....xlolx J/K

Perception is everything. As a parent who may or may not have a kid going to play college football one day, I don't want him to go to a school that has the lack of morality to do that to a kid without his knowledge (if that's the case) or with his knowledge knowing it was wrong to give it to him to start out with.

But I'm more along the lines of believing the kid was taking them himself because 18 were tested and only he was caught? Anyone doesn't think it could be that scenario hasn't visited a high school locker room....ever. xlolx

[Professor Chaos]

That and now I have the image of NDSU doing things to their players like a true FBS program.....xlolx J/K

Perception is everything. As a parent who may or may not have a kid going to play college football one day, I don't want him to go to a school that has the lack of morality to do that to a kid without his knowledge (if that's the case) or with his knowledge knowing it was wrong to give it to him to start out with.

But I'm more along the lines of believing the kid was taking them himself because 18 were tested and only he was caught? Anyone doesn't think it could be that scenario hasn't visited a high school locker room....ever. xlolx
Yeah, it's a bad look for the program and, as a booster, doesn't make me feel very good. But not only is he the only one of the 18 who failed he's the only one in 9 years of playoff competition for NDSU that I've ever heard of failing the postgame test. That's 34 games or 612 tests total if this 18 player test sample has been in place since 2010.

[Bisonator]

If it was given to him by a staff member then NDSU needs to own up to it and apologize for it and figure out how this happened so it doesn't in the future. Mistakes happen but how you deal with them is important.

[POD Knows]

That and now I have the image of NDSU doing things to their players like a true FBS program.....xlolx J/K

Perception is everything. As a parent who may or may not have a kid going to play college football one day, I don't want him to go to a school that has the lack of morality to do that to a kid without his knowledge (if that's the case) or with his knowledge knowing it was wrong to give it to him to start out with.

But I'm more along the lines of believing the kid was taking them himself because 18 were tested and only he was caught? Anyone doesn't think it could be that scenario hasn't visited a high school locker room....ever. xlolx
More than 18, that was just how many were tested for one game, they tested for other playoff games as well, no idea how many different people were tested but they administered over 50 tests just for the playoffs this year and I think this is the only one that came up bad and as far as I know, this is the only one that we have heard about in the playoff run. That is a lot of freaking tests being done and only one guy getting pinched. I have a hard time believing that this is "used throughout the locker room", the provable facts do not support that statement so as far as I am concerned at this point, that statement is bull****.

[BEAR]

More than 18, that was just how many were tested for one game, they tested for other playoff games as well, no idea how many different people were tested but they administered over 50 tests just for the playoffs this year and I think this is the only one that came up bad and as far as I know, this is the only one that we have heard about in the playoff run. That is a lot of freaking tests being done and only one guy getting pinched. I have a hard time believing that this is "used throughout the locker room", the provable facts do not support that statement so as far as I am concerned at this point, that statement is bull****.

That's why I'm thinking it was more along the lines of the kid taking the supps and not the school giving them to him with or without his knowledge. But perception is everything. The average person hears about a team with that much success gets busted for supplements they do the mental math that concludes with the "C" word. OF course pointing out how many other tests were given may lessen the negative viewpoint but they may also say "but they just weren't caught doing it." I get both views but being around sports so long I find it likely the kid was perp and not the school IMO.

[POD Knows]

That's why I'm thinking it was more along the lines of the kid taking the supps and not the school giving them to him with or without his knowledge. But perception is everything. The average person hears about a team with that much success gets busted for supplements they do the mental math that concludes with the "C" word. OF course pointing out how many other tests were given may lessen the negative viewpoint but they may also say "but they just weren't caught doing it." I get both views but being around sports so long I find it likely the kid was perp and not the school IMO.Yea, I don't know, I don't like this vague stuff being thrown around, the parents can meet with the school, advise the school that if the school doesn't come forward with the information, then the parents will. This is pretty simple stuff being made way to complicated and now all parties look guilty. It doesn't need to be this difficult.

[Professor Chaos]

Rumor is the "trusted staff member" is a hired consultant that is no longer working with NDSU. Again, that's just the rumor and we'll probably never know for sure... he is kind of a convenient scapegoat since he's no longer working with NDSU. Regardless, no tears shed from me about the fact. His shtick had worn thin with me as a fan and I've heard it had worn thin with players as well.

[clenz]

Right. Then, where are the results sent and interpreted? The company doesn't send them to the NCAA.In season tests done by schools are sent back to the schools - this has been in the news a ton with Clemson losing players to drug tests before the title game and saying they won't test further.


I played D3 ball, but the procedure is the same almost anywhere for testing.

Tests are "random" in season - but star players never "win" the test lottery it seems. Most schools have a code of silence for test results and handle it internally

For example the d3 played at (and have heard it's this way at many schools at ever level)

first positive test: meeting held with coaches and trainers. They ask what was taken (roid or illicit). A ton of extra conditioning and a warning that they have extra balls in the lottery from then on out. No one other than coaches and that player know.

Second positive test was an ass handing. More conditioning than could be made through. AD is made aware, depending on the substance a referral to support groups, and a small suspension (possible loss of scholarship money for a semester)

Third is gone from the team for violating team rules.




Post season tests are done by the NCAA and they have their own rules. I think a year suspension is harsh, especially because banned substances are so generic for a term. As has been mentioned, probably 80% of the stuff at GNC will pop a test. That's where a training staff needs to be kept abreast with everything taken and cleared with trainers first.

I think that's where the truth lies in this. Kid went and got it on his own (I've never heard of a school giving supplements out from the staff..I've heard of approved lists to use but never from the staff is it provided) and he asked someone on staff if it was clear. Was told it was (meaning they didn't check to be sure) and he popped on it.

Having said that, it's tough to believe the school have it to him and he was the only one that tested for it. I'd imagine more than him took it if it was from the school and more should have been popped. Same with if he got it from another player. More would be using it and showing up. Which is why I think he sought it out and was wrongly cleared to take it

After 2015s season UNI lost one of the 2 best LBs in the country for the 2016 season to a test after the Portland State game (played the next week as the appeal and b sample we're done). The NCAA will never make it known why a kid is suspended. It's up to the school for how to handle it. UNI and the kid said nothing to save face. Instead he declared for the NFL draft early.

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[F'N Hawks]

Makes you wonder why they were "formally" internal testing in the first place. To catch people or to regulate?

[Professor Chaos]

Makes you wonder why they were "formally" internal testing in the first place. To catch people or to regulate?
Both I'd say. Losing players in the playoffs is a bad deal so regular season testing can help "train" players on what they can and can't take without losing them for games.

[POD Knows]

Makes you wonder why they were "formally" internal testing in the first place. To catch people or to regulate?JFC, probably to catch people and take corrective action so they don't get exposed in the playoffs by the NCAA. Doesn't UND do in season testing, oh wait, nevermind.

[clenz]

Both I'd say. Losing players in the playoffs is a bad deal so regular season testing can help "train" players on what they can and can't take without losing them for games.This.

You want to catch them before they get hit by the NCAA. Knowing who to watch more closely from a safety point as well.

It's half CYA and half teach.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[clenz]

JFC, probably to catch people and take corrective action so they don't get exposed in the playoffs by the NCAA. Doesn't UND do in season testing, oh wait, nevermind.If you don't make the playoffs and then win games in the playoffs you don't have to worry about NCAA tests so in season tests are worthless.

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[POD Knows]

If you don't make the playoffs and then win games in the playoffs you don't have to worry about NCAA tests so in season tests are worthless.

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Yea, that is what I said.

[clenz]

Yea, that is what I said.You did it in a veiled way

I said it in a way UND grads would understand.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Bisonator]

I wouldn't post rumors about something with someones name and business at stake.

[POD Knows]

You did it in a veiled way

I said it in a way UND grads would understand.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using TapatalkThank you, I do need to be clearer in how I speak in this thread, particularly given the new audience we have.

[BEAR]

What confuses me and likely some athletes is "what" is acceptable and unacceptable. Are there similar natural ingredients that would register as illegal in some of these tests? My son's football coach said he will NEVER tell his players to take ANY kind of supplements. It's all on them if they do. They can't even ask him for suggestions about supplements. Might be a legal thing. But he sure as heck wants them to hit that peanut butter HARD. xlolx

https://cdnimg.webstaurantstore.com/images/products/extra_large/66208/1435903.jpg

[F'N Hawks]

Both I'd say. Losing players in the playoffs is a bad deal so regular season testing can help "train" players on what they can and can't take without losing them for games.

At least somebody realized the point of my post without taking it to the gutter.

[Thumper 76]

I couldn’t resist because of that weight room post of mine that I still get **** for.

Look on the bright side. That’s one of the most legendary posts on this site in a long time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[POD Knows]

Seems like the intrepid sleuths over in Bisonville might have broke the code on this, I don't want to post anything from there on here but maybe some Bviller can add to this.

[POD Knows]

At least somebody realized the point of my post without taking it to the gutter.Your post was pretty snide, now excuse me while I try to drink enough coffee to flunk an NCAA drug test.

[clenz]

You'd have to consume a hell of a lot of caffeine - with no other water - to pop that caffeine portion of the test.

That could have been what happened. If it is he was taking significantly more than he should have been, and drinking only caffeinated beverages outside of that. Doing that once and then having to test isn't going to concentrate the caffeine to the level that would pop a test.

I still think a year ban is harsh, but the story has some interesting open ends that leaves me with more questions than answers and being convinced by that bisonville conspiracy theory.

[Bisonator]

You'd have to consume a hell of a lot of caffeine - with no other water - to pop that caffeine portion of the test.

That could have been what happened. If it is he was taking significantly more than he should have been, and drinking only caffeinated beverages outside of that. Doing that once and then having to test isn't going to concentrate the caffeine to the level that would pop a test.

I still think a year ban is harsh, but the story has some interesting open ends that leaves me with more questions than answers and being convinced by that bisonville conspiracy theory.
I guess I don't get why caffeine is even on the list. Seriously how much caffeine is too much? Will a shot of 5 hour energy put you in danger of a positive test?

[Professor Chaos]

I guess I don't get why caffeine is even on the list. Seriously how much caffeine is too much? Will a shot of 5 hour energy put you in danger of a positive test?
Straight from the horse's mouth (NCAA): https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Caffeine%20and%20Athletic%20Performance.pdf


Caffeine is a banned substance by the NCAA. A urinary caffeine concentration exceeding 15 micrograms per milliliter (corresponding to ingesting about 500 milligrams, the equivalent of six to eight cups of brewed coffee, two to three hours before competition) results in a positive drug test.

"Extra strength" 5 hour energy is about 250mg of caffeine in it so you'd have to take at least 2 to get close.

http://p.vitalmx.com/photos/forums/2012/10/25/CR_DEC12_p10_Upfront_Energy_drinks_149755.jpg


So if it was caffeine he was either pounding those preworkout mixes or someone mixed them way too strong.


This is the stuff that he was rumored to be taking: https://www.cleanvictorysupplements.com/products/stage-one-pre-workout

Caffeine content in one scoop is 250mg:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1205/1970/products/CLEA16_01532_Stg1TropKck_large.jpg?v=1484593128

So if he drank 2 scoops of that mixed in with water/Gatorade/etc that would we enough.

[clenz]

I guess I don't get why caffeine is even on the list. Seriously how much caffeine is too much? Will a shot of 5 hour energy put you in danger of a positive test?
IIRC you need something like 500mg of metabolized caffeine in your system to come close to popping a test.

That's over 5 cups of coffee.

Not just "Dude, I drank a **** ton of coffee today". That's consistently doing nothing but putting caffeine in your body at that kind of level every single day for a while to have it metabolized like that.

That prework out has less than half of the limit for it's daily intake. So either he was double to triple dosing on that for a while and or drinking a hell of a lot of coffee, soda, energy drinks on top of it.

It's pretty ****ty that is what cost him his senior season, IF that's what it was.

It also does largely need to fall back on him for not looking at what was going into his body when he knew him being tested for it could happen.

If I'm at a job where I know I'm subject to random testing, I'm not going to just go out and smoke week non-stop hoping my number never gets pulled from the random test lottery.

[POD Knows]

IIRC you need something like 500mg of metabolized caffeine in your system to come close to popping a test.

That's over 5 cups of coffee.

Not just "Dude, I drank a **** ton of coffee today". That's consistently doing nothing but putting caffeine in your body at that kind of level every single day for a while to have it metabolized like that.

That prework out has less than half of the limit for it's daily intake. So either he was double to triple dosing on that for a while and or drinking a hell of a lot of coffee, soda, energy drinks on top of it.

It's pretty ****ty that is what cost him his senior season, IF that's what it was.

It also does largely need to fall back on him for not looking at what was going into his body when he knew him being tested for it could happen.

If I'm at a job where I know I'm subject to random testing, I'm not going to just go out and smoke week non-stop hoping my number never gets pulled from the random test lottery.
I bet I have had 7 cups of coffee since 7 this morning, I wonder what my piss test would show.

[clenz]

I bet I have had 7 cups of coffee since 7 this morning, I wonder what my piss test would show.
Probably high.

But are you subject to random testing that would get you suspended from your job (or lose your job) if you had that level of caffeine in your system?

He needed to be smarter than that and understand what he was doing if that is what popped the best.


To defend the NCAA's stance (gross) on caffeine ...


It is a stimulant. From a safety standpoint pumping that much caffeine into your system and then exerting that much energy, heart rate, adrenaline, losing that much sweat, etc. right after with the impact that caffeine already has on the body is EXTREMELY dangerous. And likely why it is banned at that kind of level of concentration.

Call it a CYA issue.

[Professor Chaos]

FWIW the IOC, who seems to be kind of the standard bearer for athletic drug testing, used to regulate caffeine as well but quit in 2004 (link (http://www.runningwritings.com/2011/08/caffeine-and-running-effectiveness.html)).

Just another ridiculous and archaic regulation by the NCAA.


Probably high.

But are you subject to random testing that would get you suspended from your job (or lose your job) if you had that level of caffeine in your system?

He needed to be smarter than that and understand what he was doing if that is what popped the best.


To defend the NCAA's stance (gross) on caffeine ...


It is a stimulant. From a safety standpoint pumping that much caffeine into your system and then exerting that much energy, heart rate, adrenaline, losing that much sweat, etc. right after with the impact that caffeine already has on the body is EXTREMELY dangerous. And likely why it is banned at that kind of level of concentration.

Call it a CYA issue.
Idk... read that article I linked above. I don't think it's nearly as dangerous as you're making it out to be. There's a reason why the IOC quit testing for it in 2004.

Regardless, I agree he needed to be smarter about what he was taking right before a game when he knew he could be tested afterward.

[clenz]

FWIW, in trying to find other places that have caffeine banned - the World Doping Agency (who oversees all international competitions) is adding it to their list as well.

It was banned until 2003 by them but at a low level - much lower than the NCAA limit.

A pretty good read on the topic here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2017/03/08/caffeine-could-be-headed-to-world-anti-doping-agencys-prohibited-substance-list/?utm_term=.e7d291c944d3

[clenz]

FWIW the IOC, who seems to be kind of the standard bearer for athletic drug testing, used to regulate caffeine as well but quit in 2004 (link (http://www.runningwritings.com/2011/08/caffeine-and-running-effectiveness.html)).

Just another ridiculous and archaic regulation by the NCAA.


Idk... read that article I linked above. I don't it's nearly as dangerous as you're making it out to be.

Regardless, I agree he needed to be smarter about what he taking right before a game when you know you could be tested afterward.
See my post. They are bringing it back - or working on bringing it back.

[POD Knows]

Probably high.

But are you subject to random testing that would get you suspended from your job (or lose your job) if you had that level of caffeine in your system?

He needed to be smarter than that and understand what he was doing if that is what popped the best.


To defend the NCAA's stance (gross) on caffeine ...


It is a stimulant. From a safety standpoint pumping that much caffeine into your system and then exerting that much energy, heart rate, adrenaline, losing that much sweat, etc. right after with the impact that caffeine already has on the body is EXTREMELY dangerous. And likely why it is banned at that kind of level of concentration.

Call it a CYA issue.Nah, we are expected to be under the influence of something at all times. If we would have had testing in the 80's and 90's, we wouldn't have had any field people employed. xdrunkyx

[Professor Chaos]

See my post. They are bringing it back - or working on bringing it back.
Interesting. Regardless what does or doesn't happen with caffeine regulation in the future I hope they get that Clean Victory **** out of NDSU's locker room. 250mg of caffeine in one scoop is more powerful than any energy drink out there.

[clenz]

Caffeine is in all preworkouts

250 is average

https://www.caffeineinformer.com/caffeine-in-workout-supplements

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[Professor Chaos]

Caffeine is in all preworkouts

250 is average

https://www.caffeineinformer.com/caffeine-in-workout-supplements

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
I'd say the same thing about any of those that are 250mg and above given the NCAA's allowed limit. There's plenty that are under that. This was probably a lesson learned for a lot of guys in the NDSU S&C program that use those not just Brock Robbins. It's just too bad it cost him his senior season.

EDIT: Another interesting article linked in that same article, pre-workout supplements are the 3rd most dangerous caffeinated product out there behind only pure caffeine powder and pure liquid caffeine (https://www.caffeineinformer.com/caffeinated-killers).

[clenz]

Given your look so you still have issues with the NCAA having a ban on it?

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[Professor Chaos]

Given your look so you still have issues with the NCAA having a ban on it?

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It makes sense, I can see why they test for it. A year long suspension for it is still stupid though.

[geaux_sioux]

Interesting. Regardless what does or doesn't happen with caffeine regulation in the future I hope they get that Clean Victory **** out of NDSU's locker room. 250mg of caffeine in one scoop is more powerful than any energy drink out there.

It sounds like caffeine wasn’t what got him popped. Labels are meaningless in the supliment world.

[clenz]

It sounds like caffeine wasn’t what got him popped. Labels are meaningless in the supliment world.
This is also likely.

I don't think the tests are able to tell you what it was, just that it popped.

The idea that it is caffeine is driven by a hatred by fans of a person that Kleiman trusts and had around the program as a consultant more than actual proof at this point.

[Hammersmith]

This is also likely.

I don't think the tests are able to tell you what it was, just that it popped.

The idea that it is caffeine is driven by a hatred by fans of a person that Kleiman trusts and had around the program as a consultant more than actual proof at this point.

I wouldn't say hatred; at least not by fans. His name was originally brought up by current and former players. The worst I've seen written by fans is that some were turned off by the guy when they met him. The current and former players are the ones with stronger feelings.

While it's possible that the substance wasn't caffeine, people are jumping to that conclusion because it fits the facts. It explains why mom is saying it was used throughout the locker room, but in the end, only BR tested positive. When prepared and consumed according to label directions, the stuff (assumedly)hucked by BN won't cause someone to fail an NCAA drug test. It will only do that if used improperly at approximately twice the label directions.

Now if BN told players to mix it strong, then we've got a big problem. That's not to say I'm thrilled that NDSU had someone associated with the program that also had a vested interest in pushing a particular supplement. That feels a little slimy now that we know about it. But I'm also not going to jump up and down about the players using a product that wouldn't cause a test failure when used properly. Now if you show me data indicating that the supplement is unhealthy or dangerous even when being used correctly, then I'll definitely reconsider.

The only other thing I'm worried about is what exactly everyone means by 'provided'. If BN actually gave this Clean Victory stuff to the players for free, then I think this might be a separate NCAA violation(improper benefits). If he provided an initial sample of the product as a representative of the company, and then the players purchased it themselves from that point on, it might be a technical NCAA violation or not. I don't know specifics in that situation. And if he just recommended the product and acted as a delivery vessel*, then I don't know if 'provided' is really the term that should be used. It implies giving the product for free, or giving an illegal product, which this is not.



*by delivery vessel, I mean the players order from the company and pay for it, but the company ships the product to BN to be distributed, thereby saving on shipping costs.

[Hammersmith]

Separately, I've been interested in how this has been playing in different parts of the FCS world. BV is talking about it, of course. Mainly trying to figure out how this happened and what it means. AGS is very lightly following it. SDSUFans hasn't mentioned it at all. Same as I could see from PantherNation and the JMU board. Egriz is talking about it, but only because a couple posters there seem to get their kicks trolling Bison fans, and one Bison fan isn't smart enough to recognize the trolling for what it is. Elements of the Fargo media are covering it, but mostly for clicks it appears. The only non-NDSU place that seems to be deeply discussing it is SiouxSports, and I think we all know why that is(and I don't blame them that much).

I just don't see this story having much in the way of legs unless it comes out that BN was providing the supplement for free. Only the people most connected to NDSU(positive and negative) seem to care about this, and if it does turn out that the banned substance was caffeine, do you really think the general public is going to care about a substance that most of them consume every day? Any general anger will be directed toward the NCAA(whether they deserve it or not), not NDSU.

[Gil Dobie]

Separately, I've been interested in how this has been playing in different parts of the FCS world. BV is talking about it, of course. Mainly trying to figure out how this happened and what it means. AGS is very lightly following it. SDSUFans hasn't mentioned it at all. Same as I could see from PantherNation and the JMU board. Egriz is talking about it, but only because a couple posters there seem to get their kicks trolling Bison fans, and one Bison fan isn't smart enough to recognize the trolling for what it is. Elements of the Fargo media are covering it, but mostly for clicks it appears. The only non-NDSU place that seems to be deeply discussing it is SiouxSports, and I think we all know why that is(and I don't blame them that much).

I just don't see this story having much in the way of legs unless it comes out that BN was providing the supplement for free. Only the people most connected to NDSU(positive and negative) seem to care about this, and if it does turn out that the banned substance was caffeine, do you really think the general public is going to care about a substance that most of them consume every day? Any general anger will be directed toward the NCAA(whether they deserve it or not), not NDSU.

Looks like Brock Robbins is the most popular topic on a hockey school message board. xnodx

[Bisonoline]

Looks like Brock Robbins is the most popular topic on a hockey school message board. xnodx

If somebody from NDSU was ticketed for farting in public the moral outrage from the north would be deafening.xnodx

[F'N Hawks]

If somebody from NDSU was ticketed for farting in public the moral outrage from the north would be deafening.xnodx

Like totally.

[Hammersmith]

Looks like Brock Robbins is the most popular topic on a hockey school message board. xnodx

All kidding aside, I understand why. At the moment, they have almost nothing positive to talk about. Their hockey team is severely under-performing for the second straight year. Football isn't doing well; they had to fire assistant coaches and next year maybe a head coach. Both MBB & WBB are mediocre at best; the best you can say is that NDSU might suck worse. The only time they've been in the news lately has been negative; they've pissed off two donors in the Englestead daughter and the family that donated the land for their golf course. Seeing NDSU with egg on our face over this is just about the only thing that can raise their spirits right now. That's not meant as an insult, just a observation of their reality.

[nodak651]

All kidding aside, I understand why. At the moment, they have almost nothing positive to talk about. Their hockey team is severely under-performing for the second straight year. Football isn't doing well; they had to fire assistant coaches and next year maybe a head coach. Both MBB & WBB are mediocre at best; the best you can say is that NDSU might suck worse. The only time they've been in the news lately has been negative; they've pissed off two donors in the Englestead daughter and the family that donated the land for their golf course. Seeing NDSU with egg on our face over this is just about the only thing that can raise their spirits right now. That's not meant as an insult, just a observation of their reality.

Pretty accurate for the most part imo. However, the pissed off donor just donated 4 mil towards a 6 million dollar scoreboard that we don't need, so she cant really be that upset. I think she was truly in the wrong, though, but that's an argument for another day.

[Hammersmith]

Pretty accurate for the most part imo. However, the pissed off donor just donated 4 mil towards a 6 million dollar scoreboard that we don't need, so she cant really be that upset. I think she was truly in the wrong, though, but that's an argument for another day.

I agree she was in the wrong. But even her recent donation caused minor problems. First, she effectively donated to herself or the Englestead legacy. She didn't donate $4M to UND, she donated it to the Ralph Englestead Arena. Cutting hairs a bit, but there's still some truth to it. Second, it once again shows the other sports at UND where they stand. FB desperately needs new locker rooms? Nope. But MIH got their relatively new locker rooms redone just a couple years ago, and now they get a $6M scoreboard. T&F doesn't have a quality outdoor track to practice on? Too bad. Soccer basically plays on a flat section of grass? We'll improve it eventually. No softball on campus. No tennis on campus. MBB, WBB & VB all have to share the same space. To a certain subset of UND supporters, that scoreboard is doing more harm than good.

[centennial]

This thread is what happens when uneducated fans(UNDies) start speculation about things they don't understand.

Same with NCAA, doctors are 20 years behind science. I have my genome mapped, I have 1 Gene with slow and one with fast metabolizer. Depending on your genes you CAN have much higher blood levels even with equal consumption. The slow genes are relatively rare, and I would hypothesize that people with slow genes do go to the emergency rooms more.

I have messed myself with preworkout + coffee. Still paying $5000 off every month. Long story.

https://www.pathway.com/blog/the-genetics-behind-your-caffeine-consumption/

[SeattleGriz]

More than 18, that was just how many were tested for one game, they tested for other playoff games as well, no idea how many different people were tested but they administered over 50 tests just for the playoffs this year and I think this is the only one that came up bad and as far as I know, this is the only one that we have heard about in the playoff run. That is a lot of freaking tests being done and only one guy getting pinched. I have a hard time believing that this is "used throughout the locker room", the provable facts do not support that statement so as far as I am concerned at this point, that statement is bull****.It's possible if Robbins was the only to cross the threshold for determining a positive.

For example, his urine was above 50 units and everyone else fell below 50.

Bad luck for sure.

[F'N Hawks]

...and this thread took the usual turn to talking about UND athletics, donors, and their message board.

Not about the NDSU AD who very well may be lying to cover for his department and the Forum seems to think it, too.

[Gil Dobie]

...and this thread took the usual turn to talking about UND athletics, donors, and their message board.

Not about the NDSU AD who very well may be lying to cover for his department and the Forum seems to think it, too.

May have been some lawyers tinkering with the wording, so it may not be a lie.

[geaux_sioux]

I agree she was in the wrong. But even her recent donation caused minor problems. First, she effectively donated to herself or the Englestead legacy. She didn't donate $4M to UND, she donated it to the Ralph Englestead Arena. Cutting hairs a bit, but there's still some truth to it. Second, it once again shows the other sports at UND where they stand. FB desperately needs new locker rooms? Nope. But MIH got their relatively new locker rooms redone just a couple years ago, and now they get a $6M scoreboard. T&F doesn't have a quality outdoor track to practice on? Too bad. Soccer basically plays on a flat section of grass? We'll improve it eventually. No softball on campus. No tennis on campus. MBB, WBB & VB all have to share the same space. To a certain subset of UND supporters, that scoreboard is doing more harm than good.

The soccer pitch is actually being redone to FIFA match spec. There are athletics upgrades across the board in the pipeline that the public doesn’t know about yet.

[geaux_sioux]

May have been some lawyers tinkering with the wording, so it may not be a lie.

The “he got it from another student-athlete” portion seems to be a straight lie.

[Gil Dobie]

The “he got it from another student-athlete” portion seems to be a straight lie.

The staff member could have given the product to a group of players, and the exact exchange could have went from staff member to another player to Robbins for a flea flicker.

[nodak651]

The staff member could have given the product to a group of players, and the exact exchange could have went from staff member to another player to Robbins for a flea flicker.

So... If that was the case, NDSU publicly threw Robbins under the bus for what you guys think is caffeine, because he didn't technically get it from a staff member, rather another player who did. The original source is still the staff member in your scenario.

[nodak651]

The soccer pitch is actually being redone to FIFA match spec. There are athletics upgrades across the board in the pipeline that the public doesn’t know about yet.

Still a flat pitch of grass. Hammersmith is 100% on the money. There are upgrades planned across the board, but there isn't money for them.

[dewey]

I am just interested to find out who isn't telling the truth. Brock Robbins or NDSU AD Matt Larsen. Larsen better make dang sure it wasn't anyone on the NDSU staff or he is in trouble.

I would like Robbins to come out and say who it was. If Robbins was given it from someone in the payroll NDSU should publicly apologize and pay for Robbins last year of school.

I am just waiting to see what the facts are.

Dewey

[nodak651]

I am just interested to find out who isn't telling the truth. Brock Robbins or NDSU AD Matt Larsen. Larsen better make dang sure it wasn't anyone on the NDSU staff or he is in trouble.

I would like Robbins to come out and say who it was. If Robbins was given it from someone in the payroll NDSU should publicly apologize and pay for Robbins last year of school.

I am just waiting to see what the facts are.

Dewey

Sam Herder seems to believe Robbins.
https://twitter.com/SamHerderFCS/status/1091819746436280322

If Robbins is telling the truth, he shouldn't have to publicly out the guy and have it on his conscience. If it were me, I'd want him to come forward himself.

[dewey]

Sam Herder seems to believe Robbins.
https://twitter.com/SamHerderFCS/status/1091819746436280322

If Robbins is telling the truth, he shouldn't have to publicly out the guy and have it on his conscience. If it were me, I'd want him to come forward himself.The hard thing is Robbins may be telling the truth and the staff member may have given something to Robbins (or more) that he/she didn't know would cause any issues with the NCAA testing.

Dewey

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[Bisonator]

If Robbins took too much or didn't follow the directions it's 100% on him. If his story is true that a lot of players were using the same thing then it doesn't matter who supplied it because it's not an illegal substance if used correctly. IMO this is someone trying to blame someone else for the situation they got themselves in, typical of our society today, it's always someone else's fault.

[clenz]

If Robbins took too much or didn't follow the directions it's 100% on him. If his story is true that a lot of players were using the same thing then it doesn't matter who supplied it because it's not an illegal substance if used correctly. IMO this is someone trying to blame someone else for the situation they got themselves in, typical of our society today, it's always someone else's fault.This is where I stand

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[UpstateBison]

Thankfully, the “staffer” has moved on to #poundtherock. In the future, no more snake oil salesmen should be allowed to be around the program.


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[Gil Dobie]

Sam Herder seems to believe Robbins.
https://twitter.com/SamHerderFCS/status/1091819746436280322

If Robbins is telling the truth, he shouldn't have to publicly out the guy and have it on his conscience. If it were me, I'd want him to come forward himself.

Sam's scenario makes sense.

[Bisonoline]

I am just interested to find out who isn't telling the truth. Brock Robbins or NDSU AD Matt Larsen. Larsen better make dang sure it wasn't anyone on the NDSU staff or he is in trouble.

I would like Robbins to come out and say who it was. If Robbins was given it from someone in the payroll NDSU should publicly apologize and pay for Robbins last year of school.

I am just waiting to see what the facts are.

Dewey

Nobody can come out from NDSU with anything definitive until all the stories are verified and facts are put on the table. As usual the naysayers have jumped the couch and have their narrative while yipping on why they do know more. Why is that??? Because they dont have the need to know. Its none of anyones business until the internal investigation is completed.

[TheKingpin28]

Thankfully, the “staffer” has moved on to #poundtherock. In the future, no more snake oil salesmen should be allowed to be around the program.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkSo we are canceling the GFCC, SDSU, and YSU games this season? But I thoroughly enjoy the comedy show each one brings when NDSU plays them. xlolx

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[F'N Hawks]

So we are canceling the GFCC, SDSU, and YSU games this season? But I thoroughly enjoy the comedy show each one brings when NDSU plays them. xlolx

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Thoroughly.

[Hammersmith]

While reading another board, I realized something that I found a little funny/ironic/dumb/whatever. I realized I could make a case that almost every college out there is doing something worse than what NDSU is being accused of. (I can only think of a handful of colleges that don't fit.) Not only is your college allowing one or more outside entities to come to your campus and provide your student-athletes with an NCAA banned substance, but they're almost certainly receiving a kick-back to allow it to happen. For shame.

Sorry, just something weird I thought of and wanted to share.

[JSUBison]

Thankfully, the “staffer” has moved on to #poundtherock. In the future, no more snake oil salesmen should be allowed to be around the program.


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But does that really make sense though? If it was Snake Oil Man, why wouldn't Brock say it was him? He has no loyalty to that guy. Nobody does, and nobody likes him anyway, it sounds like. But if it was a staffer, like let's say his position or S&C coach, well Brock might get conflicted on throwing one of those guys under the bus. But then I go back to the Beck tweet, which makes me think you are right, lol. Which is why we're still dealing with this drama.

[clenz]

But does that really make sense though? If it was Snake Oil Man, why wouldn't Brock say it was him? He has no loyalty to that guy. Nobody does, and nobody likes him anyway, it sounds like. But if it was a staffer, like let's say his position or S&C coach, well Brock might get conflicted on throwing one of those guys under the bus. But then I go back to the Beck tweet, which makes me think you are right, lol. Which is why we're still dealing with this drama.Legal ramifications without real proof are a bitch.

Slander. Defamation.

Those are lawsuits that I would guess Reynolds doesn't have the money to defend off if Newman wanted to go after him - and I bet he would as chances of real evidence being there are zero.


Also simply having that for the team isn't against NCAA rules. Brock taking double or triple doses are what did him in.

Unless there is video of Brock having it poured down his throat by Newman he's going to lose a hell of a lot more money than his senior seasons scholarship

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[Redbird 4th & short]

I couldn’t resist because of that weight room post of mine that I still get **** for.

just caught up on this thread ... big touche' is definitely in order here. If you're the original "hit the weight room harder" guy ... I can't believe you and others have shown this much restraint !! More than a few (certainly not all or even most, but more than a few) Bison fans have looked down their noses about the integrity of their program ... ahem, mine in particular.

p.s. and not to assume guilt until more facts are in, but the Robbins family version sounds pretty convincing. and why isn't it being further investigated if that is their story.

[Professor Chaos]

just caight up on this thread ... big touche' is definitely in order here. If you're the original "hit the weight room harder" guy ... I can't believe you and others have shown this much restraint !! More than a few (certainly not all or even most) Bison fans have looked down their noses about the integrity of their porogram ... mine in particular.

p.s. and not to assume guilt until more facts are in, but the Robbins family version sounds pretty convincing. and why isn't it being further investigated if that is their story.
So the lesson learned here is it's better to sell marijuana to an undercover cop than drink too much caffeine before a playoff game. The former gets you a few weeks off from summer workouts and the latter gets you suspended for a season.

[Redbird 4th & short]

So the lesson learned here is it's better to sell marijuana to an undercover cop than drink too much caffeine before a playoff game. The former gets you a few weeks off from summer workouts and the latter gets you suspended for a season.
hah ... so remind me, which ISU coach provided our player with the illegal substance to be delivered ?

tell me this isn't more than a little ironic ? Granted, jury is still out.

p.s. I agree he should have been suspended for a couple games. But he only dellivered .. he was not the seller.

[clenz]

hah ... so remind me, which ISU coach provided our player with the illegal substance to be delivered ?

tell me this isn't more than a little ironic ? Granted, jury is still out.

p.s. I agree he should have been suspended for a couple games. But he only dellivered .. he was not the seller.
PPS He pled guilty to a ****ing felony.....and got an 11 day suspension during a time when literally nothing was happening and got a complete reinstatement within 2 hours of pleading guilty to the felony

[Professor Chaos]

hah ... so remind me, which ISU coach provided our player with the illegal substance to be delivered ?

tell me this isn't more than a little ironic ? Granted, jury is still out.

p.s. I agree he should have been suspended for a couple games. But he only dellivered .. he was not the seller.
I don't know... has an ISU coach ever given a player a can of soda??? If so, he provided that player with an "illegal substance".

To act like this is some significant black eye for the NDSU program is pretty laughable. I agree that the optics here aren't that great but NDSU can't, legally, say what the illegal substance was. All signs point to it being caffeine based on the supplement this alleged "trusted staff member" was peddling. The only person who can give specifics is the player or his representative(s) and it appears he's done talking about it for the time being. I'd say everyone associated with the NDSU program learned a lesson or two regarding this and a guy lost his senior season because of it.

One failed test out of 600+ in the last 9 years does not give me any indication that this is a systemic issue. NDSU has had players dismissed from the team as early as last year for issues bigger than this. You're reading far too much into this if you're trying to make it into an "a-ha!" moment to say NDSU has dirty laundry too... this has already been established and has little to do with pre-workout supplements.

[Redbird 4th & short]

I don't know... has an ISU coach ever given a player a can of soda??? If so, he provided that player with an "illegal substance".

To act like this is some significant black eye for the NDSU program is pretty laughable. I agree that the optics here aren't that great but NDSU can't, legally, say what the illegal substance was. All signs point to it being caffeine based on the supplement this alleged "trusted staff member" was peddling. The only person who can give specifics is the player or his representative(s) and it appears he's done talking about it for the time being. I'd say everyone associated with the NDSU program learned a lesson or two regarding this and a guy lost his senior season because of it.

One failed test out of 600+ in the last 9 years does not give me any indication that this is a systemic issue. NDSU has had players dismissed from the team as early as last year for issues bigger than this. You're reading far too much into this if you're trying to make it into an "a-ha!" moment to say NDSU has dirty laundry too... this has already been established and has little to do with pre-workout supplements.
agree, the jury is still out. But the family's defense is compelling and warrants a little more investigation. Though it wouldn't be the first time a mom reflexively believed a child and would do anything to defend the child. The fact that she is a Bison alumni (hall of famer) and from a very sports-minded family from North Dakota, does give their story a little more weight. I mean who would make such an accusation against program like this knowing they have to live the rest of their lives having made this accusation against such a storied football program.

But again .. the jury is still out and youre right .. only 1 verified positive drug test.

p.s as ambiguities surrounding sports performance/enhancement drugs and "what is a banned substance" goes, I think itr could be argued there is even more ambiguity surrounding the illegality of marijuana. Now 33 states allow marijuana usage, 10 of which allow it recreationally .. and list is growing. If you knew how conservative Mclean Count and Normal, IL law enforcement and judicial system is, and that they let him off with community service and probation, and the "delivery" charge was dropped to misdemeanor .. that speaks to how serious of a crime it really was.

[Bisonator]

agree, the jury is still out. But the family's defense is compelling and warrants a little more investigation. Though it wouldn't be the first time a mom reflexively believed a child and would do anything to defend the child. The fact that she is a Bison alumni (hall of famer) and from a very sports-minded family from North Dakota, does give their story a little more weight. I mean who would make such an accusation against program like this knowing they have to live the rest of their lives having made this accusation against such a storied football program.

But again .. the jury is still out and youre right .. only 1 verified positive drug test.

p.s as ambiguities surrounding sports performance/enhancement drugs and "what is a banned substance" goes, I think itr could be argued there is even more ambiguity surrounding the illegality of marijuana. Now 33 states allow marijuana usage, 10 of which allow it recreationally .. and list is growing. If you knew how conservative Mclean Count and Normal, IL law enforcement and judicial system is, and that they let him off with community service and probation, and the "delivery" charge was dropped to misdemeanor .. that speaks to how serious of a crime it really was.
Well if you believe his story that this substance was widely used throughout the locker room and the fact that he was the only player to fail in testing, you can only come to one logical conclusion. This substance is not illegal when used at the proper dosage and or under the directions. Therefore the fault for the failed test result still has to fall back on the individual who misused the product or combined it with another substance.

[Professor Chaos]

agree, the jury is still out. But the family's defense is compelling and warrants a little more investigation. Though it wouldn't be the first time a mom reflexively believed a child and would do anything to defend the child. The fact that she is a Bison alumni (hall of famer) and from a very sports-minded family from North Dakota, does give their story a little more weight. I mean who would make such an accusation against program like this knowing they have to live the rest of their lives having made this accusation against such a storied football program.

But again .. the jury is still out and youre right .. only 1 verified positive drug test.

p.s as ambiguities surrounding sports performance/enhancement drugs and "what is a banned substance" goes, I think itr could be argued there is even more ambiguity surrounding the illegality of marijuana. Now 33 states allow marijuana usage, 10 of which allow it recreationally .. and list is growing. If you knew how conservative Mclean Count and Normal, IL law enforcement and judicial system is, and that they let him off with community service and probation, and the "delivery" charge was dropped to misdemeanor .. that speaks to how serious of a crime it really was.


Well if you believe his story that this substance was widely used throughout the locker room and the fact that he was the only player to fail in testing, you can only come to one logical conclusion. This substance is not illegal when used at the proper dosage and or under the directions. Therefore the fault for the failed test result still has to fall back on the individual who misused the product or combined it with another substance.
Yep, I think the mom's story that it was widely used is plausible given the fact that it was a pre-workout supplement. The part that the school and player/mom directly contradict each other on is who he got it from but if it's a legal supplement when used as directed I'm not sure that means as much as I originally thought it did. I get the feeling NDSU may be getting overly technical when it says he got the supplement from another student (as in another student bought it and gave it to him or another student mixed it for him) but whatever... if it is too much caffeine it's more of a "well that was dumb" type of thing than a "cheater!" type of thing.

[clenz]

Post that needed to be shared here I found on BV that is worth the read

http://www.bisonville.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1335608

Re: Brock Robbins

The following is a hypothetical scenario with some basic science mixed in:

Let's say that.....

-an athlete is in the locker room preparing to play in a football game.

-During that time, this same athlete consumes a beverage(s) containing 2 scoops of the product (supplement) that has been referenced in this thread.

-This particular powdered beverage contains 250 milligrams of anhydrous caffeine per scoop.

-Nearly all of this caffeine is present throughout this athlete's body's within 45 minutes.*

-the result (500 total milligrams of caffeine) puts that athlete at about 15 mcg/mL (at the NCAA maximum allowable limit).

-then, the athlete competes in that day's football game which typically lasts for about 3 hours.

-the athlete's body metabolizes the ingested caffeine at a rate of [half of the amount consumed] over a 5 hour period**

-The total elapsed time (getting dressed, warm up, additional pre-game activities, on the field post-game activities), is perhaps 4 hours.

-assuming no additional caffeine was ingested since the initial amount discussed above, the remaining level would likely be between 260-280 mg (8-9 mcg/mL)

-Once the player is back in the locker room area, a drug screening is administered.*

-In the scenario above, this particular athlete would PASS the urinalysis according to the NCAA guidelines.

-In order to fail a*POST-GAME*test under the above scenario, this athlete would have had to have consumed between 800-850 milligrams of caffeine before the game.

or...…...and this is the part that makes me cringe.....

-He would have had to consume caffeine DURING the game.

And, of course, most of this **** is moot if the test in the above scenario was administered pre-game.

*https://www.caffeineinformer.com/caffeine-metabolism

***https://www.news-medical.net/health/...rmacology.aspx



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[Bisonator]

We don't know when he was tested. The NCAA can test before, during or after a game.

[NDSUtk]

I am not sure why so many are demanding that there be an investigation. Perhaps there already was enough of one and a decision was made inside the program. Look at Clemson, they suspended multiple people. Programs deal with program issues and they don't have to become public. I doubt the public will ever hear more than we already have. Just my guess. I understand people want to know more, but there's no obligation by anyone to provide more.

[cx500d]

I am not sure why so many are demanding that there be an investigation. Perhaps there already was enough of one and a decision was made inside the program. Look at Clemson, they suspended multiple people. Programs deal with program issues and they don't have to become public. I doubt the public will ever hear more than we already have. Just my guess. I understand people want to know more, but there's no obligation by anyone to provide more.


Look at SDSU - Coach gets popped joosing, and the coach discreetly punished himself.