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Lehigh Football Nation
July 30th, 2005, 09:35 AM
If there was any doubt that fans, alumni and journalists are racheting up the heat on the Ivy presidents, these two articles should dispel your doubts.

My father gets the Dartmouth Alumni magazine, and although I can't access it online, an excerpt follows:


For a college that had just fired a loyal and likeable football coach and an athletic program that had already taken enough lumps, the story that appeared in the December 10th edition of the Valley News was a fresh bruise... It revealed the existence of a 4-year old letter, authored by the Dean of Admissions and Financial Aid... printed on college stationary and addressed to Alfred Bloom, president of Swarthmore College.

In the now-notorious letter, the dean commended Bloom for dropping the school's football program. "Other institutions would do well to follow your lead... I, for one, support this change... football programs represent a sacrifice to the academic quality and diversity of entering first-year classes... football, and the culture that surrounds it, is antithetical to the academic mission of colleges such as ours... A close examination of intercollegiate athletics within the Ivy League would point to other sports in which the same phenomenon is apparent."

The article goes on to detail the strong alumni support for athletics and football in particular, and how athletes and former athletes banded together to reverse this sort of mentality. Alumni are actively trying to get involved to not only save athletics but to reverse this idiotic (and faulty) mentality. Time will tell if they're successful, but the fact that the alumni magazine are shedding a big ray of light on the letter and this internal stuggle was pretty telling to me.

Also out of Penn comes this article (http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaaf/news?slug=uwire-commentarynonewsisbadnewsf&prov=uwire&type=lgns):


(U-WIRE) PHILADELPHIA -- Congratulations Amy Gutmann. You are now officially part of one of the most elite yet hypocritical organizations in college athletics -- the Council of Ivy Group Presidents.

Last Thursday, the eight Ivy League presidents had their annual meeting, where they discuss everything from federal research grants to budgetary issues.

But the real important reason these eight pillars of academia gather is to discuss and possibly alter athletic policy. After all, the Ivy League is, officially, an athletic conference.

The news coming out of Gutmann's office is ... well, there is no news. Penn's president, and every other Ivy president for that matter, has no comment on the meetings. Neither does Ivy League Executive Director Jeff Orleans, who is sometimes asked by the Council to make a statement about the meetings.

If the presidents are saying nothing, are we to assume that they accomplished nothing. This is a shame, because there are certainly archaic rules peculiar to the Ivy League that are worth debating.

Many have called on the Council to discuss partial scholarships for basketball players as the Patriot League has successfully tried. Others have asked them to add an 11th game to the football schedule, so that Ivy teams can find other Division I-AA opponents to scrimmage. And, of course, almost anyone familiar with Ivy League athletics has asked the Council to lift the league's ban on football postseason play.

These pleas have been stonewalled by the Ivy presidents, who continuously shirk public commentary on athletic policy.

For a group that speaks so often about the importance of academics, why are the Ivy presidents so afraid to publicly debate and defend their athletic policies? I'm no Ph.D., but isn't academia all about publishing your ideas and then having to defend them?

...

Each year, after the Ivy meetings, the Council should openly discuss what policies were debated and why a change was or was not made.

Right now, we are often just left with illogical statements. Such was the case when Rodin defended the football postseason ban, noting that it conflicted with finals. While this is true only if a team advanced deep into the playoffs, she would not give a rationale as to why other sports -- such as volleyball and soccer -- were allowed to play in NCAA Tournaments that also conflicted with finals.

On a rare occasion, an outgoing Ivy president will shed a glimmer of light on the Council's dark secrets. Princeton football coach Roger Hughes was once told by his then-outgoing President Harold Shapiro that there was no logical reason for the postseason ban. Former Brown President Gordon Gee once made a similar claim as he was leaving the school to become chancellor at Vanderbilt, noting that the existing rule was not in the spirit of equality and should be overturned.

But most of the time, we are just met with silence.

...

I don't happen to agree with some of the league's rules, but that's mostly because -- despite many attempts -- I've never had an Ivy League president who is willing to honestly explain his or her thinking to me.

It's quite possible that the Ivy League presidents have excellent rationales for their policies. Maybe the Council had a very insightful and intelligent debate on athletic policy as recently as last week's meeting.

I just wish they'd share it with the rest of us.

Pretty strong stuff! Maybe some minds may be changed by this stuff after all. Eight minds, to be exact.

Sly Fox
July 30th, 2005, 09:54 AM
Academia will always despise athletics due to jealousy and misunderstanding. The key to battling it will always be through alumni & students raising their voices. The Ivies are no exception.

RadMann
July 30th, 2005, 09:59 AM
The academic "elite" feel the same way about fraternities.....

ChickenMan
July 30th, 2005, 10:04 AM
What ever happened to the egghead's support of 'diversity'... :mad:

colgate13
July 30th, 2005, 07:12 PM
What ever happened to the egghead's support of 'diversity'... :mad:

"diversity" is only diversity to those types if it fits their definition of diverse...

Tribe4SF
July 30th, 2005, 10:52 PM
"diversity" is only diversity to those types if it fits their definition of diverse...

On the money, 13. I find the Dartmouth Dean's statement about football compromising academic quality and diversity of incoming freshmen to be nothing short of laughable. I assume Dartmouth is like most Ivys, W&M and most Patriot schools, in that it likely graduates a higher percentage of its football players than it does the general student body. As to diversity, I'm not familiar with the ethnic make-up of their team, but I will wager that people of color are represented to a significantly higher degree than is true within their general student population. Elitism coupled with hypocrisy seems to be a frequent marriage among Ivy administrators.

bkrownd
July 31st, 2005, 12:18 AM
Academia will always despise athletics due to jealousy and misunderstanding. The key to battling it will always be through alumni & students raising their voices. The Ivies are no exception.

The statement in the letter is pretty typical of the culture of arrogance common in the shady corners of "4-year private" colleges. Give me State U anyday.

JohnStOnge
July 31st, 2005, 08:36 AM
I can see I'm not the only one wondering about that "diversity" comment. I don't see how having football programs makes for a less "diverse" student populations. That's a pretty wierd statement.

Of course this whole "diversity" movement is nonsense anyway. Diversity in a system is only a benefit if nobody tries to influence outcomes. That's not what's happening in our culture.

blukeys
July 31st, 2005, 03:12 PM
The statement in the letter is pretty typical of the culture of arrogance common in the shady corners of "4-year private" colleges. Give me State U anyday.


Sorry bkrownd I take issue with you laying this on the feet of just the "4-year private colleges." You can find the same type of arrogance at the faculties of both your's and my fine "state" institutions. This is the leftist politically correct view that is dominant at 99% of our colleges.

You probably won't find that attitude in the president's office of UD or UMASS but you will find it in the faculty senate and they use the same lame "diversity" argument.

The amazing thing about all these hypocrites is that they will use the minority students on their athletic teams as "proof" that they are actively recruiting a diverse student population!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

OL FU
July 31st, 2005, 04:07 PM
The statement in the letter is pretty typical of the culture of arrogance common in the shady corners of "4-year private" colleges. Give me State U anyday.



Sorry bkrownd I take issue with you laying this on the feet of just the "4-year private colleges." You can find the same type of arrogance at the faculties of both your's and my fine "state" institutions. This is the leftist politically correct view that is dominant at 99% of our colleges.

You probably won't find that attitude in the president's office of UD or UMASS but you will find it in the faculty senate and they use the same lame "diversity" argument.

The amazing thing about all these hypocrites is that they will use the minority students on their athletic teams as "proof" that they are actively recruiting a diverse student population!!


I too have to take issue. There are plenty of 4-year private colleges that support football with enthusiam. Two withing twenty five miles of where I presently sit. Wofford and Furman.

Go...gate
July 31st, 2005, 06:09 PM
If any group of schools ever needed a breath of fresh air, it is the Ivy League - and maybe even some of the Patriots - like Lafayette and Holy Cross. We in the Patriot can only hope that day will come.

GSUBass
July 31st, 2005, 09:20 PM
I too have to take issue. There are plenty of 4-year private colleges that support football with enthusiam. Two withing twenty five miles of where I presently sit. Wofford and Furman.

Wofford isn't a real college....:D

I watched the Wofford-GSU game from last year (it was either that or GSU - Furman and i didn't want to end the night mad) and my favorite quote is when the announcers made the point that GSU's student body is larger than all of Wofford's living alumni.

The Ivies need to get off their high horses when it comes to football playoffs, every other sport of theirs competes in the playoffs, football isn't any different.

biobengal
July 31st, 2005, 09:26 PM
Pencil in these playoff dates: Penn vs. Maine in Orono, Harvard vs. Georgia Southern in Statesboro, or better yet, the Harvard vs. DU (directional university) game. Honestly, can anyone really see the ivies playing playoff football?

Take a quick glance at the schedule of Harvard (or any other Ivy) over the past 50 years and you will be left with same opionion I have, the Ivies are incaplable of athletic change.

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa_team_index.php

biobengal
July 31st, 2005, 09:52 PM
How about handing the A-10's NU the worst beating of any team NU played? There are more examples...

Examples of what????? Playing instate OOC games.

You are quite right on one front, they can play excellent football. I suspect Harvard would have done well in the playoffs last year.

henfan
August 1st, 2005, 08:58 AM
This is the leftist politically correct view that is dominant at 99% of our colleges.

Sorry, but the athletics vs. academics argument isn't one easily categorized as strictly right or left. Arch-con Bill Bennett and others from the right side of the isle have come down on the side of the "athletics bad" argument.

Tribe4SF
August 1st, 2005, 09:23 AM
Sorry, but the athletics vs. academics argument isn't one easily categorized as strictly right or left. Arch-con Bill Bennett and others from the right side of the isle have come down on the side of the "athletics bad" argument.

Agreed. Our new President at W&M has put "diversity" near the top of his priorities and is clearly to the left of center politically. He is a huge supporter of athletics, particularly football. While Dean of the UNC Law School, he delivered pre-game pep talks to the team.

ChickenMan
August 1st, 2005, 10:12 AM
Ted Kennedy scored a TD against Yale his senior year. For him, it was all downhill from there! :p

I agree 100% with the posts urging an Ivy change of heart on participation in the FB playoffs. But... :deadhorse


I knew Teddy K was adept at swimming and running away... but I didn't know that he played football... ;)

bluehenbillk
August 1st, 2005, 11:58 AM
It's sad & ironic to say that the Ivy Presidents aren't smart enough to figure out what they're missing.

LBPop
August 4th, 2005, 01:25 PM
Sorry, but the athletics vs. academics argument isn't one easily categorized as strictly right or left. Arch-con Bill Bennett and others from the right side of the isle have come down on the side of the "athletics bad" argument.

Uh, is that the same Bill Bennett whose son plays lacrosse at Princeton? :rolleyes:

Ivytalk
August 4th, 2005, 02:58 PM
Harvard's Larry Summers, who is no conservative, may be in trouble with campus feminists, but at least he shows up at football games.

C'mon, Larry, go for the gold: playoffs and an 11th game! Our boys can take it!! :p

Husky Alum
August 6th, 2005, 07:04 AM
Ted Kennedy also got caught cheating at Harvard and it was swept under the table....

Yes, that man is my senator... no I have NEVER voted for a Kennedy, and never will.