Progress, yes; but HBCUs paid a price for it

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

Progress, yes; but HBCUs paid a price for it
By Bomani Jones
ESPN.com


Forty years ago, one could argue that black college football was as competitive as any played in the country. The same sort of debates about how the Negro Leagues stacked up against Major League Baseball could be had about black college football and the big-time university game. Awash with talent that segregation placed in their laps, historically black colleges and universities consistently produced average, great and Hall of Fame-caliber professional athletes.


But the dawn of integration darkened much of the light seen by athletic departments at historically black colleges and universities. After Southern Cal's Sam "Bam" Cunningham knocked segregated Southern football to its knees in a prime-time game against Alabama in 1970, the doors began to open for black players at schools across the country. As a result, those institutions, underfunded since their foundings, had no advantage over white schools. Once, HBCUs had enough talent to make up for their lack of resources. Now, the talent is gone but the finances are roughly the same.

Before integration, historically black colleges and universities got top black players, says North Carolina Central's athletic director Bill Hayes. He was a three-time All-America football player at N.C. Central who won 195 games and six Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference (MEAC) championships as a head coach at Winston-Salem State and North Carolina A&T.


When black athletes from the South became able to stay close to home and play "big time" football, historically black schools entered a new frontier. For decades, they'd had less in terms of facilities, but access to fantastic athletes. Once the athletes had access to the cushier environs of larger, majority institutions, black schools saw fewer top athletes at their doorsteps.

The past 40 years of the NFL draft makes clear the change in the football landscape. Between 1967 and 1976, as segregation began to fall, NFL teams selected 443 players from historically black schools. During the next 20 years, 291 players from black colleges were drafted. Only 55 players from black schools have been selected in the past 10 drafts.

In states like Louisiana, Mississippi and Texas, where talent was great, the dropoff was most staggering. Between 1967 and 1976, Southern University, Grambling, Jackson State, Alcorn State, Mississippi Valley State, Texas Southern and Prairie View produced more than 35 NFL draft picks per school. In the past 10 years, those schools had a total of 15 players drafted.

[URL="http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blackhistory2007/news/story?id=2780876"]Read Entire Article

[SU Jag]

Good read!xthumbsupx

[jessesd]

I read several similar articles about it when FAMU started having all these problems a few years back.

[SU Jag]

Hopefully the trend is comming back around. More and more talented guys are no choosing to play at HBCUs rather than the lower lever FBS schools. I choose SU, over Tulane, Troy St, and a few others. These talented guys go to these other schools but they spend the majority of their time at HBCUs. For example, at SU, the LSU players and most of their black students spent the majority of their free time at Southern. Same can be said for Auburn and Tuskegee, FSU and FAMU, Tennessee State and Vandy, Duke/UNC and NC Central, and so on.

[TexasTerror]

Question...is the MEAC further along in recruiting more and more talented players than the SWAC in the eyes of those who follow HBCU football?

Seems to me that the MEAC has had quite a fair share of players who have translated FCS success to that in the NFL in the last 3-5 years than that of the SWAC, though I don't have any true facts infront of me to prove that (though I'm sure I could give it a look)...

MEAC has been more competitive against the rest of FCS than the SWAC, but you really can not measure that due to the nine-game mandate which will soon cease to exist (hopefully it opens the SWAC up for more games against the MEAC and other FCS)...

[AZGrizFan]

Hopefully the trend is comming back around. More and more talented guys are no choosing to play at HBCUs rather than the lower lever FBS schools. I choose SU, over Tulane, Troy St, and a few others. These talented guys go to these other schools but they spend the majority of their time at HBCUs. For example, at SU, the LSU players and most of their black students spent the majority of their free time at Southern. Same can be said for Auburn and Tuskegee, FSU and FAMU, Tennessee State and Vandy, Duke/UNC and NC Central, and so on.

Interesting....what about the poor SOB's at PWCU's that don't have a handy HBCU near them to hang out at?

[SU Jag]

Interesting....what about the poor SOB's at PWCU's that don't have a handy HBCU near them to hang out at?

Make the best out of it I guess. The friends that I have that went to non-HBCUs felt like the school was still segregated ex. whites hung out with whites and blacks with blacks. Not intentionally but thats just the way that it went. I'm in med school down at UAB and when I hang out with a few of their ball players ints the same exact way.

[*****]

... The friends that I have that went to non-HBCUs felt like the school was still segregated... As opposed to HBCUs that have a race in their designation?

[SU Jag]

As opposed to HBCUs that have a race in their designation?

Yep!xnodx

[*****]

Yep!xnodxSo at Southern whites don't hang out with whites and blacks don't hang out with blacks?

[SU Jag]

The whites at Southern spent a lot of time at LSU, except for the ones in the band now the mainly hung out at Southern. Blacks pretty much hung out with other blacks for the most part.

[*****]

yeah, that's more tribal than segregated I guess is my point.

[SU Jag]

yeah, that's more tribal than segregated I guess is my point.

Tribal? Explain!

[R.A.]

Question...is the MEAC further along in recruiting more and more talented players than the SWAC in the eyes of those who follow HBCU football?

Seems to me that the MEAC has had quite a fair share of players who have translated FCS success to that in the NFL in the last 3-5 years than that of the SWAC, though I don't have any true facts infront of me to prove that (though I'm sure I could give it a look)...

MEAC has been more competitive against the rest of FCS than the SWAC, but you really can not measure that due to the nine-game mandate which will soon cease to exist (hopefully it opens the SWAC up for more games against the MEAC and other FCS)...


ESPN MEAC/SWAC Challenge- MEAC:2 SWAC:0

[TexasTerror]

ESPN MEAC/SWAC Challenge- MEAC:2 SWAC:0

Will it go to 3-0 this year, ya think?

[813Jag]

Will it go to 3-0 this year, ya think?
I hope we can get back on track against the Rattlers. The Jags won the last 3 games against the MEAC.

[TexasTerror]

I hope we can get back on track against the Rattlers. The Jags won the last 3 games against the MEAC.

Hey, let's not forget...while not a member of the MEAC, Southern did fall to a Div II, future MEAC member last year...

Southern can't be losing to Div II schools if they want to keep up with the MEAC. If your going to lose to fellow HBCUs, atleast fall to a fellow Div I like Savannah St...

[SU Jag]

Hey, let's not forget...while not a member of the MEAC, Southern did fall to a Div II, future MEAC member last year...

Southern can't be losing to Div II schools if they want to keep up with the MEAC. If your going to lose to fellow HBCUs, atleast fall to a fellow Div I like Savannah St...


We beat BCC last year!xrulesx

[bobbythekidd]

If your going to lose to fellow HBCUs, atleast fall to a fellow Div I like Savannah St...
xlmaox xlmaox xlmaox

No one "falls" to Savannah State!

[blackcaesar3k5]

Jags,

Is Mark orlando or David oliver is running the offense down in Baton Ragoue?

[813Jag]

Hey, let's not forget...while not a member of the MEAC, Southern did fall to a Div II, future MEAC member last year...

Southern can't be losing to Div II schools if they want to keep up with the MEAC. If your going to lose to fellow HBCUs, atleast fall to a fellow Div I like Savannah St...
Agreed. But that goes for everyone in FCS. We'll just have to see how it goes this year since we seem to be getting our schedule back to normal. Which means no Div II.

blackcaesar3k5,
Mark Orlando is the OC he's trying to emphazie the running game which has been lacking the last few years

[3rd Coast Tiger]

As opposed to HBCUs that have a race in their designation?

Ralph, I think it's safe to say that I don't think our administrators went to congress and demanded this. So someone else "gave" it to us. All we asked for was the right for education so it was granted to us (some under desperate circumstances than others).

[Panther88]

Interesting ralph. Tribal? xconfusedx Never heard it referred to as that before. lol

Terror, don't forget that we've got A&T in Cali about our 2nd or 3rd game if memory serves correct (think it's actually #2). :)

[TexasTerror]

Terror, don't forget that we've got A&T in Cali about our 2nd or 3rd game if memory serves correct (think it's actually #2). :)

A&T has been awful the last three years. 3-8 twice and last year, 0-11. This may be a good chance for PVA&M to get a win against the poorest sister in the MEAC. A&T has a winning record against zero SWAC schools...good luck PVA&M...

[Panther88]

A&T has been awful the last three years. 3-8 twice and last year, 0-11. This may be a good chance for PVA&M to get a win against the poorest sister in the MEAC. A&T has a winning record against zero SWAC schools...good luck PVA&M...

Yeah, I've kept tabs on them and their downfall the last 3-4 years. Seems like they're in a tailspin of sorts. Hope they get out of it. Just not against us. lol

They're prime for a PV victory but if we don't find some semblance of a passing game and halt the one-dimensional ground game, we're going to be in for another long season. Ditto for the special teams play. We did well considering how hampered we were last year. Hope it turns out well. We're waaaaaaaaay overdue for some good "football" news. We're very improved but still have a long way to go.

[813Jag]

Yeah, I've kept tabs on them and their downfall the last 3-4 years. Seems like they're in a tailspin of sorts. Hope they get out of it. Just not against us. lol

They're prime for a PV victory but if we don't find some semblance of a passing game and halt the one-dimensional ground game, we're going to be in for another long season. Ditto for the special teams play. We did well considering how hampered we were last year. Hope it turns out well. We're waaaaaaaaay overdue for some good "football" news. We're very improved but still have a long way to go.
That one dimensional running game did well against Southern

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

Of course whites tend to hang out with whites and vice versa. It's no mystery that people tend to hang out with those who they have the most in common with or feel share a common set of beliefs and values. xcoffeex

That's why in NYC you have Little Italy, China Town, parts of Brooklyn (Brighton Beach area) are Russian. It's not a white/black thing, it's simply the way humanity has evolved.

I once read a study where it cited something to the effect of people being nicer, more friendly, and more conversational the less diversified a college was - regardless of race. Basically, when you force diversity, people's lack of understanding each other causes a natural friction or tension. It's nothing new. It will always be that way.

We are closer to all being "American" than ever. Whites are now just "white", not Irish, Germans, East Europeans, English, etc. Blacks are openly welcomes into many communities they had previously been shunned from in the past. I bet if you asked some white dude 50 years ago who would you rather sit by - the black guy or the arab - many would have chosen the arab. Today it is probably the reverse. Now, blacks and whites relate to each other more than they do with the Arab culture!

Just evolution of civilization, or lack thereof... okay, my lecture is over for anyone who cared. xpeacex

[SU Jag]

Of course whites tend to hang out with whites and vice versa. It's no mystery that people tend to hang out with those who they have the most in common with or feel share a common set of beliefs and values. xcoffeex

That's why in NYC you have Little Italy, China Town, parts of Brooklyn (Brighton Beach area) are Russian. It's not a white/black thing, it's simply the way humanity has evolved.

I once read a study where it cited something to the effect of people being nicer, more friendly, and more conversational the less diversified a college was - regardless of race. Basically, when you force diversity, people's lack of understanding each other causes a natural friction or tension. It's nothing new. It will always be that way.

We are closer to all being "American" than ever. Whites are now just "white", not Irish, Germans, East Europeans, English, etc. Blacks are openly welcomes into many communities they had previously been shunned from in the past. I bet if you asked some white dude 50 years ago who would you rather sit by - the black guy or the arab - many would have chosen the arab. Today it is probably the reverse. Now, blacks and whites relate to each other more than they do with the Arab culture!

Just evolution of civilization, or lack thereof... okay, my lecture is over for anyone who cared. xpeacex

That dude hit the nail on the head!xpeacex

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

Will it go to 3-0 this year, ya think?xnonox
Both Swac teams were awful that year. Bama State and Gram both had losing records while Hampton won the Meac and SC State finished in second place.

[TexasTerror]

xnonox
Both Swac teams were awful that year. Bama State and Gram both had losing records while Hampton won the Meac and SC State finished in second place.

Excuses, excuses...

Southern was awful last year, but that's no excuse when it comes to losing to a Div II program...xnonono2x

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

A&T has been awful the last three years. 3-8 twice and last year, 0-11. This may be a good chance for PVA&M to get a win against the poorest sister in the MEAC. A&T has a winning record against zero SWAC schools...good luck PVA&M...
How is what I said any different than this.xcoolx

[TexasTerror]

How is what I said any different than this.xcoolx

Div II school...

I guess your just agreeing that the SWAC fans have low standards that we've discussed on other threads before.

Losing to Div II and NAIA...no problem!

SWAC schools don't mind taking one on the chin from the sub-Div I foes...the MEAC fan base is a bit different...

[3rd Coast Tiger]

Excuses, excuses...

Southern was awful last year, but that's no excuse when it comes to losing to a Div II program...xnonono2x

There you go with that crap again...

When SWAC schools schedule down with Div. II teams you were the first on your soapbox to scream at the top of your lungs of the displeasure in the matter, now Sam schedules Div. II team(s) and you tried to give a "logical" explanation to justify it.

[TexasTerror]

There you go with that crap again...

When SWAC schools schedule down with Div. II teams you were the first on your soapbox to scream at the top of your lungs of the displeasure in the matter, now Sam schedules Div. II team(s) and you tried to give a "logical" explanation to justify it.

One thing to schedule them (lots of schools have no choice in football), another to lose to them...

Biggest issue with scheduling sub-Div I foes is all those sub-Div I foes on the baseball and softball slate...and all those losses added up by losses to Belhaven, Louisiana College and the such...

[813Jag]

Div II school...

I guess your just agreeing that the SWAC fans have low standards that we've discussed on other threads before.

Losing to Div II and NAIA...no problem!

SWAC schools don't mind taking one on the chin from the sub-Div I foes...the MEAC fan base is a bit different...
You think SWAC fans have low expectations because of a few message board posters? Or do you go to games and talk to Alumni? Because I know nobody that is happy about losing let alone to a D-II school. There a plenty of people upset about the direction of the program.

[*****]

Of course whites tend to hang out with whites and vice versa. It's no mystery that people tend to hang out with those who they have the most in common with or feel share a common set of beliefs and values. xcoffeex

That's why in NYC you have Little Italy, China Town, parts of Brooklyn (Brighton Beach area) are Russian. It's not a white/black thing, it's simply the way humanity has evolved....That's what I meant by tribal. One group of people with one hole in their cheek will hang out with other one-holers, and those with three holes will hang out with their fellow three holers.

[TexasTerror]

You think SWAC fans have low expectations because of a few message board posters? Or do you go to games and talk to Alumni? Because I know nobody that is happy about losing let alone to a D-II school. There a plenty of people upset about the direction of the program.

Doesn't seem like anyone is willing to admit about the direction of their respected program...

It's been over a year since I last attended a game at a SWAC venue featuring two SWAC squads -- I was trying to convince everyone there about the Div I playoffs and some students didn't realize that the conference had made them ineligible for a national title in a sport the SWAC could concievably have a better chance at competing than any other sport (including your baseball teams -- which are constantly mentioned as your best chance to compete nationally)...

Did attend a few Title IX games featuring SWAC schools last year...SWAC struggled to beat NAIAs and actually lost to them...

[813Jag]

Doesn't seem like anyone is willing to admit about the direction of their respected program...

It's been over a year since I last attended a game at a SWAC venue featuring two SWAC squads -- I was trying to convince everyone there about the Div I playoffs and some students didn't realize that the conference had made them ineligible for a national title in a sport the SWAC could concievably have a better chance at competing than any other sport (including your baseball teams -- which are constantly mentioned as your best chance to compete nationally)...

Did attend a few Title IX games featuring SWAC schools last year...SWAC struggled to beat NAIAs and actually lost to them...
I understand the point about the lower level teams xdeadhorsex. Well I'll say it like this, it can easily be seen that all sports in the SWAC are on a down swing, and anyway who has been around the SWAC for an extended period of time can tell you that. They probably can tell you when they believe the swing started. I've been following Southern as a fan and as a student for over 20 years and I would be the first to argue that changes need to be made. I've always been in favor of playing better competition. I was in favor of the Tulane series, but the powers that be will always do their own thing..

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

I was in favor of the Tulane series, but the powers that be will always do their own thing..The Tulane game was dropped because of money issues.

[TexasTerror]

The Tulane game was dropped because of money issues.

SU get more from a home-and-home against Loyola (LA) of the NAIA ranks? Or was it Tulane that backed out? xconfusedx

[BgJag]

SU get more from a home-and-home against Loyola (LA) of the NAIA ranks? Or was it Tulane that backed out? xconfusedx

Did I miss something? How does Loyola fit this discussion?xconfusedx

[TexasTerror]

Did I miss something? How does Loyola fit this discussion?xconfusedx

Your buddy said, "The Tulane game was dropped because of money issues." so I was curious what side of things were 'money issues'. Was it the Southern side (they did schedule a home-and-home with Loyola)? Or Tulane?

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

SU get more from a home-and-home against Loyola (LA) of the NAIA ranks? Or was it Tulane that backed out? xconfusedx
Loyola doesn't even have a football team xconfusedx xconfusedx . Check Tulane's attendence figures the years SU played them. Tulane wanted the series to be an on going rivalry. The agreement was a 50/50 spilt of the gate. But you are right SU could make more money at home than splitting the gate with Tulane. It is well documented, in the boot, besides lsu, SU has the best football fan base.

[TexasTerror]

Loyola doesn't even have a football team xconfusedx xconfusedx . Check Tulane's attendence figures the years SU played them. Tulane wanted the series to be an on going rivalry. The agreement was a 50/50 spilt of the gate. But you are right SU could make more money at home than splitting the gate with Tulane. It is well documented, in the boot, besides lsu, SU has the best football fan base.

Thought it was about baseball...not football, my mistake...got lost in the conversation!