2018-11/03 AGS GOTW Week 10

[Preferred Walk-On]

Dartmouth @ Princeton - Battle of the unbeatens. Winner is on their way to the Ivy League title.

Chattanooga @ Furman - The Mocs are one game back from first place, and one win away from 7 D1 wins. The Paladins cannot reach 7 D1 wins, but can play spoiler.

Wofford @ Samford - Same story as for game above; however, Samford can run the table and reach 7 wins (currently on a three-game winning streak). If Samford were to run the table, they would have beaten the current two top teams (Wofford and East Tennessee State) in the conference and could end up winning the Southern (with some help from Chattanooga).

East Tennessee State @ Mercer - ETSU only has two games left, and one is against Samford. A win over Mercer would get them 7 D1 wins, and with the FCS parity (beyond the top few teams) this year, it would provide a good chance for ETSU to make the playoffs. Mercer could win out for 7 D1 wins, and if nothing else, they could play spoiler to ETSU (and possibly Chattanooga next week).

Rhode Island @ Elon - First of two games vs. opponents in the top half of the conference for the Rams. Need two wins for 7 D1 wins. The Phoenix are fighting for a seed.

Maine @ Towson - Maine will need to beat Towson or Elon for a chance at 7 D1 wins. Towson looking to rebound and make a statement after losing last week.

Illinois State @ Northern Iowa - This is basically a do-or-die game for both of these teams. The loser cannot reach 7 D1 wins and will have to rely on a weak bubble to get into the playoffs.

Missouri State @ South Dakota State - Missouri State took a huge hit to their 7 D1 win chances. No worries. They just have to beat South Dakota State, North Dakota State, and Northern Iowa to achieve this (and I would suspect be a shoo-in for the playoffs). South Dakota State needs to win to have a chance at a seed.

Lamar @ Central Arkansas - The Cardinals are looking for 7 D1 wins (need to win out), but more likely will be attempting to play spoiler to either Central Arkansas and/or McNeese State. The Bears are looking to have a playoff resume that does not include a loss to Lamar.

[Reign of Terrier]

The Case for Wofford @ Samford:

1) Wofford hasn't beaten Samford since 2014
2) If Samford wins, they are officially back in the playoff hunt and could win out to win the Socon autobid
3) #1 pass defense in the socon against one of the best passers in college football
4) If Wofford wins, they have a 90% chance of winning the Socon autobid and a very high chance of getting a seed.

You're going to learn about both teams and the socon in general with this one. My gut feeling is Wofford wins by more than the experts predict, because they're going to be more focused than they've been since we played Chattanooga in 2016. We're already hearing about the focus in the locker room immediately after the Mercer win. Also Samford has a bye, **** that.

[dewey]

I voted UNI vs Illinois State. Both are fighting for their playoff lives after disappointing losses last weekend.

Plus some MVFC bias.

I was close to voting for Dartmouth vs Princeton but it is still hard for me to know how good the winner is for reasons we have beaten to death on here.

Dewey

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Ivy League deserves the limelight....

[semobison]

I voted UNI vs Illinois State. Both are fighting for their playoff lives after disappointing losses last weekend.

Plus some MVFC bias.

I was close to voting for Dartmouth vs Princeton but it is still hard for me to know how good the winner is for reasons we have beaten to death on here.

Dewey

Yep, UNI-ISUr has playoff implications, Dartmouth-Princeton just doesn't mean much to most FCS fans!

[POD Knows]

I got the Ivies in this one, UNI and ISUr will probably play an 8 overtime game that gets called because of late season lighting or something, neither team seems capable of winning a game when they absolutely have to. The Spack Mustasche thing is real and it is going to cost them their season.

[semobison]

Ivy League deserves the limelight....


Why? Until they join the rest of the FCS they are irrelevant. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see the Ivies join the playoff system. But until they do, screw em! I find it hard to vote for them in the poll, but they are on the ballots..and IMO, shouldn't be.

[FUGameBreaker]

Dartmouth @ Princeton - Battle of the unbeatens. Winner is on their way to the Ivy League title.

Chattanooga @ Furman - The Mocs are one game back from first place, and one win away from 7 D1 wins. The Paladins cannot reach 7 D1 wins, but can play spoiler.

Wofford @ Samford - Same story as for game above; however, Samford can run the table and reach 7 wins (currently on a three-game winning streak). If Samford were to run the table, they would have beaten the current two top teams (Wofford and East Tennessee State) in the conference and could end up winning the Southern (with some help from Chattanooga).

East Tennessee State @ Mercer - ETSU only has two games left, and one is against Samford. A win over Mercer would get them 7 D1 wins, and with the FCS parity (beyond the top few teams) this year, it would provide a good chance for ETSU to make the playoffs. Mercer could win out for 7 D1 wins, and if nothing else, they could play spoiler to ETSU (and possibly Chattanooga next week).

Rhode Island @ Elon - First of two games vs. opponents in the top half of the conference for the Rams. Need two wins for 7 D1 wins. The Phoenix are fighting for a seed.

Maine @ Towson - Maine will need to beat Towson or Elon for a chance at 7 D1 wins. Towson looking to rebound and make a statement after losing last week.

Illinois State @ Northern Iowa - This is basically a do-or-die game for both of these teams. The loser cannot reach 7 D1 wins and will have to rely on a weak bubble to get into the playoffs.

Missouri State @ South Dakota State - Missouri State took a huge hit to their 7 D1 win chances. No worries. They just have to beat South Dakota State, North Dakota State, and Northern Iowa to achieve this (and I would suspect be a shoo-in for the playoffs). South Dakota State needs to win to have a chance at a seed.

Lamar @ Central Arkansas - The Cardinals are looking for 7 D1 wins (need to win out), but more likely will be attempting to play spoiler to either Central Arkansas and/or McNeese State. The Bears are looking to have a playoff resume that does not include a loss to Lamar.



Furman is not going into this game looking to play spoiler, they are going into this game still trying to win the conference CHAMPIONSHIP xthumbsupx

[Preferred Walk-On]

Why? Until they join the rest of the FCS they are irrelevant. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see the Ivies join the playoff system. But until they do, screw em! I find it hard to vote for them in the poll, but they are on the ballots..and IMO, shouldn't be.

The difficult time on the ballots for me is that their rankings are mostly transitive due to them being mostly insular, and there is just not very good context for how an Ivy team would fare playing a variety of teams not in the east and/or of a higher tier. AGS doesn't rag on the Pioneer or Patriot leagues nearly as much, as they at least put a team in the system each year, and in the past, we understand that the Pioneer or Patriot entry has the capability of beating a non-seeded (lower-level) team, but not a seeded (top-tier) team very often. In other words, we kind of know what the top of those leagues indicate. If we had some context for how an Ivy team would do in the playoffs, perhaps ranking them would be a bit easier.

As for non-inclusion, they are FCS, so they should be included. There just should not be a whole lot of *itching when they are not ranked as high as some would lead you to believe they should be.

By the way, I had considered putting the San Diego @ Drake game on the candidate list. Although these teams are at the top of their conference and are fighting for that one playoff spot, it is the Pioneer League, and I just could bring myself to put two teams that lost to Harvard (who both Dartmouth and Princeton beat) and to Montana (who unfortunately is down this year).

I put the Dartmouth @ Princeton matchup on the list and voted for it, simply because they are undefeated, AND they have been beating inferior teams the way dominant programs should. After this week (although I have not checked), I don't believe an Ivy matchup will remain that warrants GOTW. So I think we should sit back and enjoy this one, THEN concentrate on the playoffs.

[Preferred Walk-On]

Furman is not going into this game looking to play spoiler, they are going into this game still trying to win the conference CHAMPIONSHIP xthumbsupx

I like your moxie! xsalutex

[Preferred Walk-On]

What, no Southern Conference love for East Tennessee State @ Mercer? If you go conference record-wise, this is actually the best Southern matchup this week (tied with Wofford @ Samford). But one could argue that Mercer beat Samford AND East Tennessee State lost to Wofford, so the Wofford @ Samford matchup has the biggest degree of separation. This would indicate that the East Tennessee State @ Mercer matchup should be the nail-biter of a game. Just putting this out there, as ETSU @ Mercer is down 9-0 currently to the other Southern games.

[FUGameBreaker]

Thinking about it, if FBS had a really sorry week lined up (which they don't) it would have been cool to see College Gameday go to Princeton for the Ivy showdown

[katss07]

Just can’t bring myself to vote for an IL game of the week. It has ZERO playoff implications. I’ll be keeping an eye on it so when Princeton melts down I can see the reaction from World.

I had to pick Samford/Woffy. Definitely the biggest FCS game this weekend that effects the playoffs.

[Bison56]

Just can’t bring myself to vote for an IL game of the week. It has ZERO playoff implications. I’ll be keeping an eye on it so when Princeton melts down I can see the reaction from World.

I had to pick Samford/Woffy. Definitely the biggest FCS game this weekend that effects the playoffs.

He will just disappear like all the other posters like him.

[cx500d]

He will just disappear like all the other posters like him.
One way or another, after mid November that will be true.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Thinking about it, if FBS had a really sorry week lined up (which they don't) it would have been cool to see College Gameday go to Princeton for the Ivy showdown

Wouldn't be the first time....2002 for the Top 20 showdown between Harvard at Penn

https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.thecrimson.com/photos/2002/11/18/122050_1669.jpg

[FUGameBreaker]

Wouldn't be the first time....2002 for the Top 20 showdown between Harvard at Penn

https://s3.amazonaws.com/media.thecrimson.com/photos/2002/11/18/122050_1669.jpg



Yep remember that, good stuff xthumbsupx

[Bisonoline]

Why? Until they join the rest of the FCS they are irrelevant. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see the Ivies join the playoff system. But until they do, screw em! I find it hard to vote for them in the poll, but they are on the ballots..and IMO, shouldn't be.

If this is a big game for the Ivies then they can enjoy it. For me they have isolated themselves and are not involved in the playoffs so they are irrelevant to me in that scope. But I would still watch the game.

[Go Green]

Dartmouth-Princeton is so intense, that we have TWO trophies for the victor--the Governor's Cup and the Sawhorse Dollar!

Here's hoping we pose like this again Saturday afternoon!

https://dartmouthsports.com/news/2014/11/22/209778810.aspx

[semobison]

If this is a big game for the Ivies then they can enjoy it. For me they have isolated themselves and are not involved in the playoffs so they are irrelevant to me in that scope. But I would still watch the game.

I feel bad for the players and even the coaches in the Ivie League. I would guess they would love to play in the playoffs. Uppity school and conference administrators are holding them back.

[TheKingpin28]

I feel bad for the players and even the coaches in the Ivie League. I would guess they would love to play in the playoffs. Uppity school and conference administrators are holding them back.

They must be afraid of an inferior "state school" showing them up on the big stage when it finally counted.

[Go Green]

They must be afraid of an inferior "state school" showing them up on the big stage when it finally counted.

Like these guys?

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/rutgers-lb-izaia-bullock-dismissed-double-murder-charges-221251886.html


Yes- we are indeed afraid of them. Really.

[semobison]

Like these guys?

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/rutgers-lb-izaia-bullock-dismissed-double-murder-charges-221251886.html


Yes- we are indeed afraid of them. Really.




How do you as a fan feel about not participating in the FCS playoffs?

[Ivytalk]

Dartmouth - Princeton. No doubt.

[Go Green]

How do you as a fan feel about not participating in the FCS playoffs?

I used to be fine with it, because I played during an era where it was likely that the Ivy champ would lose big in the I-AA playoffs. UNH, UConn, and others were just kicking our asses.

Colgate's run to the finals made me change our mind. Today, like most people, I think the Ivy would do just fine in the playoffs.

With the occasional Harvard fan, pretty everyone outside of the Ivy Presidents wants to be in the playoffs. Darn shame that we don't...

[semobison]

I used to be fine with it, because I played during an era where it was likely that the Ivy champ would lose big in the I-AA playoffs. UNH, UConn, and others were just kicking our asses.

Colgate's run to the finals made me change our mind. Today, like most people, I think the Ivy would do just fine in the playoffs.

With the occasional Harvard fan, pretty everyone outside of the Ivy Presidents wants to be in the playoffs. Darn shame that we don't...

Yep, it's a shame and with your resources, if a program wanted to be competitive, they would. And, it would be good for FCS football.

[World]

I used to be fine with it, because I played during an era where it was likely that the Ivy champ would lose big in the I-AA playoffs. UNH, UConn, and others were just kicking our asses.

Colgate's run to the finals made me change our mind. Today, like most people, I think the Ivy would do just fine in the playoffs.

With the occasional Harvard fan, pretty everyone outside of the Ivy Presidents wants to be in the playoffs. Darn shame that we don't...


Agree

It would fantastic to have the Ivies play in the playoffs, and some years they might do ok in the first 3 or 4 rounds

[Daytripper]

Agree

It would fantastic to have the Ivies play in the playoffs, and some years they might do ok in the first 3 or 4 rounds

I just want a reason to go see a football game at one of the Ivy schools. THAT would be a road trip.

[World]

I just want a reason to go see a football game at one of the Ivy schools. THAT would be a road trip.

and you might even enjoy touring some of the Ivy League campuses

https://www.google.com/search?q=princeton+hamilton+courtyard&newwindow=1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjcl8a61a_eAhWU94MKHe4ICfgQ_AUIDygC&biw=1527&bih=734#imgrc=xJJ-GMBKb-MUIM:

[World]

They must be afraid of an inferior "state school" showing them up on the big stage when it finally counted.

nahhh, the Ivies aren't afraid of any of the state schools

with many Ivy players having competed with and against players from the state schools while both were in high school

[SUPharmacist]

Dartmouth-Princeton for me despite having no bearing on the playoffs. Maybe someday they can join the party (I feel like the administrations in the IL [not necessarily players/coaches/fans] believe they are still in the top tier and do not want to be dragged down in playoff matches at the FCS level). Regardless 2 undefeated teams warrants a look. A competitive game would be great, but I am rooting for a blowout one way or the other and then a loss by the winner the following week. Then I can resume my typical ignorance of the Ivies., and not feel bad about it.

[JacksFan40]

I only vote for games that have actual importance, like playoff implications.

[JacksFan40]

I just want a reason to go see a football game at one of the Ivy schools. THAT would be a road trip.
I’ve always wanted to see the Yale Bowl, as well as Penn’s Stadium, looks like a great place.

[Daytripper]

and you might even enjoy touring some of the Ivy League campuses

https://www.google.com/search?q=princeton+hamilton+courtyard&newwindow=1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjcl8a61a_eAhWU94MKHe4ICfgQ_AUIDygC&biw=1527&bih=734#imgrc=xJJ-GMBKb-MUIM:
That was implied in my previous post....

[Go Green]

I’ve always wanted to see the Yale Bowl, as well as Penn’s Stadium, looks like a great place.

Plenty of good seats available!

But yeah- if you can use your imagination and see the ghosts of crowds past, both are well-worth the trip. Also would highly recommend at basketball game at Penn's Palestra.

[KPSUL]

I voted UNI vs Illinois State. Both are fighting for their playoff lives after disappointing losses last weekend.

Plus some MVFC bias.

I was close to voting for Dartmouth vs Princeton but it is still hard for me to know how good the winner is for reasons we have beaten to death on here.

Dewey

Your GOTW could likely identify the MVFC team that will NOT make the playoffs. So from a playoff perspective it might be the GOTW. While most everyone would concede that determining precisely how good an Ivy League team is close to impossible due to their insular scheduling, it is still an FCS matchup between unbeatens that will likely determine a Conference level championship. I threw the Ivies a bone and voted Dartmouth @ Princeton because this rarely happens.

[Go Green]

I threw the Ivies a bone and voted Dartmouth @ Princeton because this rarely happens.

Correct. We get an undefeated matchup of teams this late in the season about once a decade.

[Mattymc727]

Go Dartmouth!

NJ Sucks!

Also, it would seem all of the talent UNH usually has decided to cross the state and play for Dartmouth this year....xeyebrowx

[Go Green]

Go Dartmouth!

NJ Sucks!

Also, it would seem all of the talent UNH usually has decided to cross the state and play for Dartmouth this year....xeyebrowx

We actually got a commit last week from a D-Lineman who also had an offer from UNH (and W&M).

But Dartmouth (and other Ivies) have been getting guys in recent years from all types of scholarship programs--ranging from the NEC to the SEC. That's really been the difference. In the 1990s and 2000s, Dartmouth would be thrilled to get a guy who also had an offer from Army. Today, it's considered no big deal. "That's his best offer? Eh...."

The reason is because most Ivies have improved their financial aid packages to all admitees (athletes and non-athletes). That's what Lehigh's Coen was getting at when he called Princeton a "scholarship team."

[Mattymc727]

We actually got a commit last week from a D-Lineman who also had an offer from UNH (and W&M).

But Dartmouth (and other Ivies) have been getting guys in recent years from all types of scholarship programs--ranging from the NEC to the SEC. That's really been the difference. In the 1990s and 2000s, Dartmouth would be thrilled to get a guy who also had an offer from Army. Today, it's considered no big deal. "That's his best offer? Eh...."

The reason is because most Ivies have improved their financial aid packages to all admitees (athletes and non-athletes). That's what Lehigh's Coen was getting at when he called Princeton a "scholarship team."

At this level, where the majority wont play in the NFL, a free (or cheaper) Ivy league education is an opportunity nobody should pass up.

However, I agree with others. The Ivy needs to join the playoffs for me to become a REAL Dartmouth fan....

[World]

From STATS:

FCS Game of the Week: Dartmouth at Princeton

http://www.fcs.football/cfb/story.asp?i=20181031102612421423504&ref=rec&tm=&src=FCS


By CRAIG HALEY

STATS FCS Senior Editor

Week 10 Matchup: No. 24 Dartmouth (7-0, 4-0 Ivy) at No. 18 Princeton (7-0, 4-0)
Kickoff: 1 p.m. ET at Princeton Stadium (27,773) in Princeton, New Jersey
Broadcast: ESPN+

Series: Dartmouth leads 49-44-4 (last meeting: Dartmouth won 54-44 on Dec. 18, 2017 in Hanover, New Hampshire)

The Skinny: Two of the four unbeaten FCS teams meet with the winner taking sole possession of first place in the Ivy League. It's the sixth game in Ivy history between two unbeaten teams with at least seven wins, and the first since Harvard's 28-21 win over Penn in 2001. Dartmouth's Buddy Teevens and Princeton's Bob Surace are the only two people in history to have won an Ivy title as both a player and head coach.

Dartmouth has beaten Princeton in six of the last seven meetings and seeks its 50th win in the series, but is considered about a touchdown underdog. The Big Green defense has fueled the huge season, ranking fourth in the FCS in scoring defense (10.7 ppg) and eighth in total defense (270.1 ypg), although slightly behind the Tigers in both categories. CB Isiah Swann (national-high seven interceptions), DE Rocco Di Leo (seven sacks) and LB Jack Traynor (42 tackles) lead the swarming unit. On offense, the Big Green rotates two QBs, runner Jared Gerbino (team-high 474 yards and six TDs) and passer Derek Kyler (10 TDs to one interception). Dartmouth ranks No. 1 nationally in turnover margin (plus-2.14 per game; plus-15 overall), although Princeton isn't far behind in third.

Princeton leads the FCS in scoring (50.7 ppg) and offense (549.3 ypg), directed offensively by dual-threat QB John Lovett, who averages 313.3 yards of total offense and has accounted for 22 touchdowns. He has scored a rushing TD in 17 straight games (he missed last season with an injury), which is two games shy of the league record. The offense plays with great discipline and Lovett spreads the wealth with RB Charlie Volker (13 TDs) and WRs Jesper Horsted (10 TDs) and Stephen Carlson (five TDs). Princeton's defense lives in the shadow of the offense, but has been fantastic. Leading tackler Mark Fossati has had a breakout season and T.J. Floyd is second to Swann in the FCS with six interceptions. One negative to watch: Opponents have blocked four Princeton kicks.

Prediction: Next year's game will be played at Yankee Stadium as part of the 150th anniversary of college football (Princeton and Rutgers met in the first game in 1869), but it will be hard to match the magnitude of this year's matchup. Princeton, 31-24.

Updated October 31, 2018

[Professor Chaos]

From STATS:

FCS Game of the Week: Dartmouth at Princeton

http://www.fcs.football/cfb/story.asp?i=20181031102612421423504&ref=rec&tm=&src=FCS


By CRAIG HALEY

STATS FCS Senior Editor

Week 10 Matchup: No. 24 Dartmouth (7-0, 4-0 Ivy) at No. 18 Princeton (7-0, 4-0)
Kickoff: 1 p.m. ET at Princeton Stadium (27,773) in Princeton, New Jersey
Broadcast: ESPN+

Series: Dartmouth leads 49-44-4 (last meeting: Dartmouth won 54-44 on Dec. 18, 2017 in Hanover, New Hampshire)

The Skinny: Two of the four unbeaten FCS teams meet with the winner taking sole possession of first place in the Ivy League. It's the sixth game in Ivy history between two unbeaten teams with at least seven wins, and the first since Harvard's 28-21 win over Penn in 2001. Dartmouth's Buddy Teevens and Princeton's Bob Surace are the only two people in history to have won an Ivy title as both a player and head coach.

Dartmouth has beaten Princeton in six of the last seven meetings and seeks its 50th win in the series, but is considered about a touchdown underdog. The Big Green defense has fueled the huge season, ranking fourth in the FCS in scoring defense (10.7 ppg) and eighth in total defense (270.1 ypg), although slightly behind the Tigers in both categories. CB Isiah Swann (national-high seven interceptions), DE Rocco Di Leo (seven sacks) and LB Jack Traynor (42 tackles) lead the swarming unit. On offense, the Big Green rotates two QBs, runner Jared Gerbino (team-high 474 yards and six TDs) and passer Derek Kyler (10 TDs to one interception). Dartmouth ranks No. 1 nationally in turnover margin (plus-2.14 per game; plus-15 overall), although Princeton isn't far behind in third.

Princeton leads the FCS in scoring (50.7 ppg) and offense (549.3 ypg), directed offensively by dual-threat QB John Lovett, who averages 313.3 yards of total offense and has accounted for 22 touchdowns. He has scored a rushing TD in 17 straight games (he missed last season with an injury), which is two games shy of the league record. The offense plays with great discipline and Lovett spreads the wealth with RB Charlie Volker (13 TDs) and WRs Jesper Horsted (10 TDs) and Stephen Carlson (five TDs). Princeton's defense lives in the shadow of the offense, but has been fantastic. Leading tackler Mark Fossati has had a breakout season and T.J. Floyd is second to Swann in the FCS with six interceptions. One negative to watch: Opponents have blocked four Princeton kicks.

Prediction: Next year's game will be played at Yankee Stadium as part of the 150th anniversary of college football (Princeton and Rutgers met in the first game in 1869), but it will be hard to match the magnitude of this year's matchup. Princeton, 31-24.

Updated October 31, 2018
Well, Haley might've just put the hex on Princeton. He's picked Illinois St to beat NDSU and UND to beat Weber St in his last two games of the week.

[Go Green]

Well, Haley might've just put the hex on Princeton. He's picked Illinois St to beat NDSU and UND to beat Weber St in his last two games of the week.

That comment got a rec from me!!

Should also mention that Princeton's game notes calls Saturday's game "the biggest game in the history of Princeton Stadium."

[World]

That comment got a rec from me!!

Should also mention that Princeton's game notes calls Saturday's game "the biggest game in the history of Princeton Stadium."

Not surprised since it the first game between two undefeated teams in the history of the recently built Princeton Stadium

[Go Green]

Not surprised since it the first game between two undefeated teams in the history of the recently built Princeton Stadium

I was in attendance for last game at Palmer Stadium in 1996.

I enjoyed that afternoon. :)

[World]

In a surprise move, World votes for the Princeton/Dartmouth game!

[Go Green]

Dartmouth's Buddy Teevens and Princeton's Bob Surace are the only two people in history to have won an Ivy title as both a player and head coach.


Trying to come up with guys who won as players and assistant coaches.

Tom Gilmore is one.

James Perry is another.

Seitu Smith is likely to become another soon...

[World]

FCS Football: Predictions and Best Games for Week 10

https://athlonsports.com/college-football/fcs-football-predictions-week-10-2018

[JSUSoutherner]

UNI vs ISUr.

Dartmouth and Princeton will probably be a good game but it's completely irrelevant.

[Go Green]

Dartmouth and Princeton will probably be a good game but it's completely irrelevant.

According to another thread going on, you can say the same about every other game that doesn't involve NDSU because they are going to steamroll to yet another title anwyay.