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Go Lehigh TU Owl
October 19th, 2018, 11:14 PM
BC was a national program in the early 80s....they had beaten Texas, Texas A &M, Stanford et al in the 70s...they were at a much higher level than Lehigh. Lafayette Bucknell in 1980

Boston College became a national program in 1984 with Flutie. From 1942 until 1982 they did not finish ranked in either major poll or play in a bowl game. Prior to 1984 BC was at most a very good regional program that was capable of notching a nationally relevant win here and there. I remember Alumni Stadium before the major renovation in the mid 90's. It was MAC level. Historically, Syracuse had far more national clout than BC due to the Jim Brown and Ernie Davis eras. Both programs suffered through several periods of "blah". These programs did not operate in the same manner as Michigan, USC, Notre Dame, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Alabama, Arkansas, Texas, Ohio State or even Pitt. Penn State really stepped up their game in the mid to late 50's.

Go...gate
October 19th, 2018, 11:14 PM
BC was a national program in the early 80s....they had beaten Texas, Texas A &M, Stanford et al in the 70s...they were at a much higher level than Lehigh. Lafayette Bucknell in 1980

Exactly.

Go...gate
October 19th, 2018, 11:18 PM
Boston College became a national program in 1984 with Flutie. From 1942 until 1984 they did not finish ranked or play in a bowl game. Prior to 1984 BC was at most a very good regional program that was capable of notching a nationally relevant win here and there. I remember Alumni Stadium before the major renovation in the mid 90's. It was MAC level. Historically, Syracuse had far more national clout than BC due to the Jim Brown and Ernie Davis eras. Both programs suffered through several periods of "blah". Even so, these programs did not operate in the same manner as Michigan, USC, Notre Dame, Alabama, Arkansas, Texas, Ohio State or even Pitt. Penn State really stepped up their game in the mid to late 50's.

BC was not nearly as regional as you state. They played a strong schedule and actually opened the 1975 College Football season on Monday night national ABC-TV against Notre Dame. "Regional" programs do not rate such exposure. I agree with you that Syracuse was the strongest eastern program in that era.

Go Lehigh TU Owl
October 19th, 2018, 11:25 PM
BC was not nearly as regional as you state. They played a strong schedule and actually opened the 1975 College Football season on Monday night national ABC-TV against Notre Dame. "Regional" programs do not rate such exposure. I agree with you that Syracuse was the strongest program in that era.

BC 9-2 1971 team
at WVU L 45-14
at Temple W 17-3
Navy W 49-6
at Richmond W 24-0
Villanova W 23-7
at Texas Tech L 6-14
Pitt W 40-22
at Syracuse W 10-3
Northern Illinois W 20-10
UMass 35-10
Holy Cross 21-7

I know I cherry picked one year but their schedules all look like this! 3 of their opponents are currently FCS. Very regional centric with "Here and there" outliers.....

Temple got a primetime game and college game day 40 years after BC's foray. Because we too played Notre Dame.....

1971 Syracuse Schedule
Wisconsin
at Northwestern
at Indiana
at Maryland
Penn State
Holy Cross
at Pitt
Boston College
at Navy
West Virginia
at Miami (FL)

My college football nerd level is very high...

Go Lehigh TU Owl
October 19th, 2018, 11:45 PM
This is fascinating to me.

BC's 1975 schedule with attendance

#9 Notre Dame at Foxboro, MA 61,501
at Temple 10,986
at West Virginia 34,023
Villanova 20,500
Tulane 11,775
Navy 16,227
at Syracuse 24,015
Miami (FL) 25,331
UMass 23,609
at Holy Cross 14,731

Home average 19,488

Go...gate
October 19th, 2018, 11:48 PM
BC 9-2 1971 team
at WVU L 45-14
at Temple W 17-3
Navy W 49-6
at Richmond W 24-0
Villanova W 23-7
at Texas Tech L 6-14
Pitt W 40-22
at Syracuse W 10-3
Northern Illinois W 20-10
UMass 35-10
Holy Cross 21-7

I know I cherry picked one year but their schedules all look like this! 3 of their opponents are currently FCS. Very regional centric with "Here and there" outliers.....

Temple got a primetime game and college game day 40 years after BC's foray. Because we too played Notre Dame.....

1971 Syracuse Schedule
Wisconsin
at Northwestern
at Indiana
at Maryland
Penn State
Holy Cross
at Pitt
Boston College
at Navy
West Virginia
at Miami (FL)

My college football nerd level is very high...

And so is mine. One year of scheduling is not representative of a program.

Go...gate
October 19th, 2018, 11:49 PM
This is fascinating to me.

BC's 1975 schedule with attendance

#9 Notre Dame at Foxboro, MA 61,501
at Temple 10,986
at West Virginia 34,023
Villanova 20,500
Tulane 11,775
Navy 16,227
at Syracuse 24,015
Miami (FL) 25,331
UMass 23,609
at Holy Cross 14,731

Home average 19,488

Pretty damn good schedule for the time in major college football.

Go...gate
October 19th, 2018, 11:51 PM
BC 9-2 1971 team
at WVU L 45-14
at Temple W 17-3
Navy W 49-6
at Richmond W 24-0
Villanova W 23-7
at Texas Tech L 6-14
Pitt W 40-22
at Syracuse W 10-3
Northern Illinois W 20-10
UMass 35-10
Holy Cross 21-7

I know I cherry picked one year but their schedules all look like this! 3 of their opponents are currently FCS. Very regional centric with "Here and there" outliers.....

Temple got a primetime game and college game day 40 years after BC's foray. Because we too played Notre Dame.....

1971 Syracuse Schedule
Wisconsin
at Northwestern
at Indiana
at Maryland
Penn State
Holy Cross
at Pitt
Boston College
at Navy
West Virginia
at Miami (FL)

My college football nerd level is very high...

No comparison with 1975. ABC was the only game in town and getting a national game was a plum, no matter who you were. College development officers treated it like Christmas because of the attention and the money it generated for a school.

Go Lehigh TU Owl
October 19th, 2018, 11:53 PM
And so is mine. One year of scheduling is not representative of a program.

I can list more (just go to wiki) and it's consistent with a program that was not in the same relm as ND, USC, Michigan, Ohio State etc. Syracuse was scheduling at a level above BC until the 1-AA/1-A split. BC definitely near the bottom half in terms of facilities, attendance, scheduling and success until the early 80's.

Go Lehigh TU Owl
October 19th, 2018, 11:57 PM
Pretty damn good schedule for the time in major college football.

No it's not...lol. It's extremely weak

It's vastly inferior to Penn State's, Syracuse's, WVU's and Pitt's (fellow regional independents at that time) 1975 schedules. It's not even close.

Go...gate
October 19th, 2018, 11:58 PM
I can list more (just go to wiki) and it's consistent with a program that was not in the same relm as ND, USC, Michigan, Ohio State etc. Syracuse was scheduling at a level above BC until the 1-AA/1-A split. BC definitely near the bottom half in terms of facilities, attendance, scheduling and success until the early 80's.

Syracuse had a better facility (though it was crumbling by the 1960's and 1970's - I saw games there and its decay was very sad), but both teams played strong schedules.

Go Lehigh TU Owl
October 20th, 2018, 12:02 AM
No comparison with 1975. ABC was the only game in town and getting a national game was a plum, no matter who you were. College development officers treated it like Christmas because of the attention and the money it generated for a school.

It was Notre Dame against a fellow Catholic school in the Northeast in 1975!! It makes sense from a T.V. and cultural standpoint! No way in hell does BC get that spot under any other circumstance. C'mon...lol

Go Lehigh TU Owl
October 20th, 2018, 12:04 AM
Syracuse had a better facility (though it was crumbling by the 1960's and 1970's - I saw games there and its decay was very sad), but both teams played strong schedules.

Archbold lost about 15k seats in the early 70's due to the wooden bleachers being condemned. Their back was up against the wall In the late 70's. If they didn't get the funding neede to build the dome there was a very good chance they were going to reclassify to 1-AA.

BC was not playing tough schedules relative to their "peers". It's simply not true.

Go...gate
October 20th, 2018, 12:11 AM
Not it's not...lol. It's extremely weak

It's vastly inferior to Penn State's, Syracuse's, WVU's and Pitt's (fellow regional independents at that time) 1975 schedules. It's not even close.

Sorry, I disagree. Syracuse played and lost to one ranked team, Penn State. They did beat Boston College, but not by much. Finished 6-5 with a win over a Villanova program that was struggling to survive. Lost to Rutgers, which was 9-2-0 but beaten by Division II Lehigh and a 4-5-0 Princeton club.

Boston College played two ranked teams (ND and WVU) in finishing 7-4.

Go...gate
October 20th, 2018, 12:13 AM
Archbold lost about 15k seats in the early 70's due to the wooden bleachers being condemned. Their back was up against the wall In the late 70's. If they didn't get the funding needed to build the dome there was a very good chance they were going to reclassify to 1-AA.

BC was not playing tough schedules relative to their "peers". It's simply not true.

It is quite true, even if it does not meet your small sample test.

I have never, ever heard anywhere that SU had considered dropping to I-AA.

Go...gate
October 20th, 2018, 12:18 AM
It was Notre Dame against a fellow Catholic school in the Northeast in 1975!! It makes sense from a T.V. and cultural standpoint! No way in hell does BC get that spot under any other circumstance. C'mon...lol

Who cares how the game happened? It happened.

Go Lehigh TU Owl
October 20th, 2018, 12:20 AM
Sorry, I disagree. Syracuse played and lost to one ranked team, Penn State. They did beat Boston College, but not by much. Finished 6-5 with a win over a Villanova program that was struggling to survive. Lost to Rutgers, which was 9-2-0 and beaten by Division II Lehigh and a 4-5-0 Princeton club.

What in the world are you talking about?!? First, 'Cuse played a far more ambitious schedule relative to BC's when you consider the large state schools they faced. Second, they played 3 ranked teams! PSU finished 10/10, Pitt 13/15, WVU 17/20.
1975 Syracuse Schedule
Villanova
Iowa
at Tulane
at Maryland
at Navy
Penn State
Boston College
Pitt
at Virginia
West Virginia
at Rutgers

Go...gate
October 20th, 2018, 12:21 AM
What in the world are you talking about?!? First, 'Cuse played a far more ambitious schedule relative to BC's when you consider the large state schools they faced. Second, they played 3 ranked teams! PSU finished 10/10, Pitt 13/15, WVU 17/20.
1975 Syracuse Schedule
Villanova
Iowa
at Tulane
at Maryland
at Navy
Penn State
Boston College
Pitt
at Virginia
West Virginia
at Rutgers

According to Wiki (your source) they played one, Penn State, which was ranked No. 9 at the time of the game.

Go...gate
October 20th, 2018, 12:25 AM
I'm done for tonight. Late night at the office.

Go Lehigh TU Owl
October 20th, 2018, 12:25 AM
According to Wiki (your source) they played one, Penn State.

You're looking at the time of the game ranking. The final ranking is far more indicative of team strength xsmiley_wix

Go Lehigh TU Owl
October 20th, 2018, 12:27 AM
It is quite true, even if it does not meet your small sample test.

I have never, ever heard anywhere that SU had considered dropping to I-AA.

And you consider Syracuse a Colgate rival?!? And yourself a college football nerd?!?! And you never, ever heard of this?!?xrotatehx

Sometimes you make it too easy Go...'Gate :D

Go Lehigh TU Owl
October 20th, 2018, 12:41 AM
Who cares how the game happened? It happened.

Context matters. Lehigh and Lafayette didn't get to play at Yankee Stadium simply because it's "college football's most played rivalry". The game was played at Yankee Stadium because it was the 150th meeting of "college football's most played rivalry". There was a special circumstance clearly. BC wasn't playing a quasi neutral site game in New England against another Mid-western school like Michigan State on ABC in 1975. But against ND who had countless subway alums in the Northeast due the large Catholic population? Absolutely, BC was the perfect sidekick.

Neighbor2
October 20th, 2018, 06:51 AM
Go Lehigh TU owl wrote:

The one thing that's been consistent with the PL schools is a bit of an identity crisis. Throughout their history, especially the last 50 or so year, it doesn't seem they know what they want out of football. They dip their toes in different waters but never truly commit.[/QUOTE]

Yes! This is precisely the problem, and I don't see this changing any time soon. There is no unified desire to offer football at a balanced level of participation within the league, let alone as compared to others across the nation at the same classification of play. The result is a football league that remains forever at the fringes, with little chance for meaningful impact on the level it chose to brand itself. So, what's the point?

The current situation of tepid league effort is not appealing. It does nothing to advance a winning narrative around member schools. Coaches, recruits and fans have many other alternatives to satisfy their enthusiasm.

It is time for the Patriot League to make substantive and immediate changes. Quite possibly, football is not a proper fit for the Patriot League, and never will be. Fine. Drop this as a league sport and allow each team to determine what's best for its own well-being. Every current participant will find a home, or play as an independent. Some might even get out of the football business.

UNHWildcat18
October 20th, 2018, 08:41 AM
Maybe it's me but I just don't see the existential crisis for the PL to expand in football. There are really no schools out there that fit the profile athletically/academically.... and really, no big whoop.

Lose a playoff bid? Clutching my pearls....hardly anyone in the Northeast cares about the FCS playoffs.

7 teams is a good size...allows for varied OOC scheduling. Should Holy Cross want to play say Marist and Monmouth annually instead of Yale and UNH? I don't think so.

I highly doubt any of the PL membahs that don't have football will add/bring it back for a lot of reasons... each different for each institution.


A very good train of thought, UNH is playing Dartmouth 2021 2022 2024 2025. I really wish they would schedule Harvard,Brown, or yale for 2019,2020, and 2023, if UNH refuses go outside New England/mid Atlantic for OOC. (besides the FBS money game) then they should be playing the most "visible" teams in the FCS for our given region AKA the ivies. I would be very okay with an FBS/IVY game every year and letting the NEC/PL fill the one spot instead of having an NEC/PL/FBS OOC

Sader87
October 20th, 2018, 12:22 PM
Missed most of the back&forth between Go Gate and Go Lehigh....evah the diplomat, both made good points.

University/D1/today's FBS NorthEast football was a very loose confederation of schools with different agendas up to the 1-A/1-AA split in the late 70s and early 80s.

Penn St and Pitt were national powers prior to the split. BC, Syracuse, West Virginia, Temple and Rutgers were a half-step below them at the time in terms of following, national schedules, facilities etc. The service academies, Holy Cross, Colgate and Villanova were basically playing at an FCS/1-AA level by the late 1970s and were only very loosely connected to the other 1-A schools in the East by then.

BC was becoming a national program through the 1970s undah then AD Bill Flynn who was instrumental in getting that ND game at Foxboro in 1975. I agree that they were more a "regional FBS team" through the 1960s into the 70s but they were becoming a much more national team by 1980 and were very much a large step above a school like Lehigh at that point.

PAllen
October 20th, 2018, 01:55 PM
Context matters. Lehigh and Lafayette didn't get to play at Yankee Stadium simply because it's "college football's most played rivalry". The game was played at Yankee Stadium because it was the 150th meeting of "college football's most played rivalry". There was a special circumstance clearly. BC wasn't playing a quasi neutral site game in New England against another Mid-western school like Michigan State on ABC in 1975. But against ND who had countless subway alums in the Northeast due the large Catholic population? Absolutely, BC was the perfect sidekick.

The catholic church used to require the BC/ND game be played.

DFW HOYA
October 20th, 2018, 04:29 PM
I was going to post the 9-9 score at regulation as what's wrong with the PL, but not today.

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/images/lehigh_403.jpg

Go Green
October 20th, 2018, 05:35 PM
Go Georgetown!!!!

:)

ngineer
October 20th, 2018, 09:10 PM
So, after flipping so many pages, "what's wrong with the Patriot League?"

bulldog10jw
October 20th, 2018, 09:21 PM
So, after flipping so many pages, "what's wrong with the Patriot League?"

Not enough good players?

Son of Eli
October 20th, 2018, 09:25 PM
A very good train of thought, UNH is playing Dartmouth 2021 2022 2024 2025 (tel:2021 2022 2024 2025). I really wish they would schedule Harvard,Brown, or yale for 2019,2020, and 2023, if UNH refuses go outside New England/mid Atlantic for OOC. (besides the FBS money game) then they should be playing the most "visible" teams in the FCS for our given region AKA the ivies. I would be very okay with an FBS/IVY game every year and letting the NEC/PL fill the one spot instead of having an NEC/PL/FBS OOC

Have New Hampshire’s coach give Tony Reno (head coach of Yale) a call. Reno is on record saying he wants to schedule the best teams available. New Hampshire clearly fits the bill, this year notwithstanding.

ngineer
October 20th, 2018, 09:30 PM
Not enough good players?

That's about it.

LehighU11
October 20th, 2018, 09:56 PM
So, after flipping so many pages, "what's wrong with the Patriot League?"
That it still exists.

To me, the fundamental problem is that since the League's formation, the member schools have increasingly diverged in their visions for where football fits in at their respective institutions. This has held almost everyone back. Aside from adopting the entire laundry list of suggestions that have been beaten to death on 28 pages and in countless other threads, the action that would most likely achieve the desired results would be for the PL to drop football as a league sport.

In hindsight, Colgate, Fordham, and Lehigh may have been better off jumping ship to the CAA prior to the conference restructuring that ultimately saw Stony Brook, Albany, and then Elon join. That ship has likely sailed. Stony Brook and Elon have seen the profile of their programs rise since the move, while Albany has arguably fielded better teams as well.

Go...gate
October 20th, 2018, 10:29 PM
And you consider Syracuse a Colgate rival?!? And yourself a college football nerd?!?! And you never, ever heard of this?!?xrotatehx

Sometimes you make it too easy Go...'Gate :D

Yes, both my late brother (also a Colgate grad) and myself. I was also a volunteer for Colgate Sports Information while an undergraduate. Do you have a link to an article regarding this? I would be most interested.

Go...gate
October 20th, 2018, 10:53 PM
The Catholic Church used to require the BC/ND game be played.

Not sure this was ever a requirement, but it sounds like a good idea.

First, however, let the Catholic Church solve the problem of protecting pedophile priests over countless generations.

Lehigh Football Nation
October 20th, 2018, 11:53 PM
That it still exists.

To me, the fundamental problem is that since the League's formation, the member schools have increasingly diverged in their visions for where football fits in at their respective institutions. This has held almost everyone back. Aside from adopting the entire laundry list of suggestions that have been beaten to death on 28 pages and in countless other threads, the action that would most likely achieve the desired results would be for the PL to drop football as a league sport.

In hindsight, Colgate, Fordham, and Lehigh may have been better off jumping ship to the CAA prior to the conference restructuring that ultimately saw Stony Brook, Albany, and then Elon join. That ship has likely sailed. Stony Brook and Elon have seen the profile of their programs rise since the move, while Albany has arguably fielded better teams as well.

The Patriot League ever since its inception in 1986 has always been a very uneasy alliance of interests. In the broadest sense possible, the Patriot League has been about a vague sense of typing high-academic students and sports... but there has always been disagreements as to how to achieve that. Some want no scholarships at all. Others want some scholarships, but tied to the AI. Some want to spend it on basketball but not football. Basketball scholarships almost tore the conference apart, and so did football scholarships. In both cases two extremely divided factions had to come to some late consensus that made nobody happy, but did sort-of keep the academic focus of the league and kept things together.

I detest the Patriot League trying to be something its not. It's not the Ivy League, with their huge endowments and lack of a postseason. It's not the CAA, which are an uneasy alliance of small state schools and private schools that happen to have Rivalries with its members. It's supposed to be it's own thing, with its own way of doing things. Their identity cannot and should not be that it is second banana to anybody.

What ails Patriot League football is incredibly simple. They need to decide that, as a conference, they want their teams to pursue both academic excellence and FCS Playoff excellence. If they really, honestly, want schools like Richmond, Villanova, UNH and William and Mary as members, they need to come up with a demonstrable set of rules that would allow them as would-be members to compete for national FCS titles. People may laugh, but over and over these teams have been casting about, looking to see if the Patriot League will finally get serious about competing, but every time these teams have been able to go back home and laugh, sadly shake their heads, and say "it hasn't changed".

Go...gate
October 20th, 2018, 11:58 PM
The Patriot League ever since its inception in 1986 has always been a very uneasy alliance of interests. In the broadest sense possible, the Patriot League has been about a vague sense of typing high-academic students and sports... but there has always been disagreements as to how to achieve that. Some want no scholarships at all. Others want some scholarships, but tied to the AI. Some want to spend it on basketball but not football. Basketball scholarships almost tore the conference apart, and so did football scholarships. In both cases two extremely divided factions had to come to some late consensus that made nobody happy, but did sort-of keep the academic focus of the league and kept things together.

I detest the Patriot League trying to be something its not. It's not the Ivy League, with their huge endowments and lack of a postseason. It's not the CAA, which are an uneasy alliance of small state schools and private schools that happen to have Rivalries with its members. It's supposed to be it's own thing, with its own way of doing things. Their identity cannot and should not be that it is second banana to anybody.

What ails Patriot League football is incredibly simple. They need to decide that, as a conference, they want their teams to pursue both academic excellence and FCS Playoff excellence. If they really, honestly, want schools like Richmond, Villanova, UNH and William and Mary as members, they need to come up with a demonstrable set of rules that would allow them as would-be members to compete for national FCS titles. People may laugh, but over and over these teams have been casting about, looking to see if the Patriot League will finally get serious about competing, but every time these teams have been able to go back home and laugh, sadly shake their heads, and say "it hasn't changed".

Well said.

PAllen
October 21st, 2018, 02:23 AM
Not sure this was ever a requirement, but it sounds like a good idea.

First, however, let the Catholic Church solve the problem of protecting pedophile priests over countless generations.

Agree with the pedophile thing, that is beyond excusable.

As for ND, ND had two games set in stone on the schedule every year. BC because the church said so, and Navy because ND wouldn't exist if it weren't for the Navy getting them through the WWII years. The church has eased up on the BC thing, but ND will continue to play Navy "as long as they want to play us".

UNHWildcat18
October 21st, 2018, 05:28 AM
Have New Hampshire’s coach give Tony Reno (head coach of Yale) a call. Reno is on record saying he wants to schedule the best teams available. New Hampshire clearly fits the bill, this year notwithstanding.

I hope we can get it done! no reason to play two NEC/PL teams a year when 4 ivies are a short bus ride away.

Franks Tanks
October 21st, 2018, 06:53 AM
The catholic church used to require the BC/ND game be played.

That’s just not accurate. Who exactly would even order such a thing, and what power would the “church” have to punhish if non-compliant? They played because both sides saw a benefit in playing the game.

PAllen
October 21st, 2018, 08:18 AM
That’s just not accurate. Who exactly would even order such a thing, and what power would the “church” have to punhish if non-compliant? They played because both sides saw a benefit in playing the game.

That comes straight from multiple interviews with the ND AD in the '90s regarding the possibility of ND joining the Big 10.

DFW HOYA
October 21st, 2018, 09:07 AM
As for ND, ND had two games set in stone on the schedule every year. BC because the church said so, and Navy because ND wouldn't exist if it weren't for the Navy getting them through the WWII years. The church has eased up on the BC thing, but ND will continue to play Navy "as long as they want to play us".


The church said so? Who? Was there some sort of synod that reached this conclusion?

ND wasn't told what to do by anyone. ND does what it wants to do. In the 1920's, Georgetown would invite Knute Rockne to its football dinner every year, hoping he would add them to the schedule. After a few visits, Rockne minced no words: ND wasn't in the business of promoting other Catholic schools as long as they were making the decisions. And that's why after Rockne ND never scheduled Georgetown, Fordham, Holy Cross, Manhattan, Duquesne, Xavier, etc. It played a game in 1952 against Detroit at Tiger Stadium but that was it until it scheduled BC.

But back to the topic at hand (again): please revisit LFN's comments on the prior page. Recommended reading.

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?214566-What-s-Wrong-With-the-Patriot-League&p=2694897&viewfull=1#post2694897

PAllen
October 21st, 2018, 09:23 AM
The church said so? Who? Was there some sort of synod that reached this conclusion?

ND wasn't told what to do by anyone. ND does what it wants to do. In the 1920's, Georgetown would invite Knute Rockne to its football dinner every year, hoping he would add them to the schedule. After a few visits, Rockne minced no words: ND wasn't in the business of promoting other Catholic schools as long as they were making the decisions. And that's why after Rockne ND never scheduled Georgetown, Fordham, Holy Cross, Manhattan, Duquesne, Xavier, etc. It played a game in 1952 against Detroit at Tiger Stadium but that was it until it scheduled BC.

But back to the topic at hand (again): please revisit LFN's comments on the prior page. Recommended reading.

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?214566-What-s-Wrong-With-the-Patriot-League&p=2694897&viewfull=1#post2694897

Again, that comes from the ND AD at the time. Don't believe me? I don't care. Go watch some of his interviews as to why ND hemmed and hawed, then turned down the Big 10.

Go Green
October 21st, 2018, 03:24 PM
The catholic church used to require the BC/ND game be played.

Fascinating that the Church did not require Holy Cross to join the Big East.

:)

DFW HOYA
October 21st, 2018, 03:56 PM
Again, that comes from the ND AD at the time. Don't believe me? I don't care. Go watch some of his interviews as to why ND hemmed and hawed, then turned down the Big 10.

I believe you, but who is this person in "the Church" scheduling teams? It's like saying someone in "the government" told him.

ND held back on the Big Ten because the alumni felt it would diminish their national standing as an independent.

Bill
October 21st, 2018, 04:27 PM
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RichH2
October 21st, 2018, 05:22 PM
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Well said Bill. :)

Bill
October 21st, 2018, 05:32 PM
Well said Bill. :)

Ha! Sorry about that. I tried to put a picture of Pope John Paul II - since he would have been in charge of all church scheduling at that time. However, no matter how many times I edited it, the picture kept disappearing. Almost like it was a message from above.xeyebrowx

Go...gate
October 21st, 2018, 09:27 PM
Again, that comes from the ND AD at the time. Don't believe me? I don't care. Go watch some of his interviews as to why ND hemmed and hawed, then turned down the Big 10.

Moose Krause said that?

ngineer
October 22nd, 2018, 01:07 PM
Moose Krause said that?

"Antlers in the Tree Tops"--by Hu Goosed deMoose

Pard4Life
October 22nd, 2018, 02:44 PM
Lafayette could be competitive but the admin calls the shots and it's questionable how much they ultimately care.

LC gave up major football following the Depression. They hired a president from W&J,which killed football, and it was demphasized at LC.

Some bright spots: a few years in the 50s and 1968 but that's it until Russo. Notice that when LC was in the ECC, the school was more competitive athletically everywhere? Take women's basketball: averaged 20+ wins since birth until the PL era... then lucky to get 10 wins or 5 a year!

Sader may complain about the PL killing HC football but the PL killed LC athletics upon the death of the ECC around 1990.

Lehigh Football Nation
October 22nd, 2018, 03:11 PM
Lafayette could be competitive but the admin calls the shots and it's questionable how much they ultimately care.

LC gave up major football following the Depression. They hired a president from W&J,which killed football, and it was demphasized at LC.

Some bright spots: a few years in the 50s and 1968 but that's it until Russo. Notice that when LC was in the ECC, the school was more competitive athletically everywhere? Take women's basketball: averaged 20+ wins since birth until the PL era... then lucky to get 10 wins or 5 a year!

Sader may complain about the PL killing HC football but the PL killed LC athletics upon the death of the ECC around 1990.

LC killed Lafayette Athletics. They enthusiastically embraced non-scholarship men's (and by extension women's) basketball and they paid the price. O'Hanlon worked hard and got the occasional solid team but was up and down, and Lafayette was one of the final PL schools, I believe to offer any basketball scholarships.

The Boogie Down
October 22nd, 2018, 08:21 PM
To catch up on some previous comments here... When you think about PL teams that seem to care about the classroom and (to some extent at least) the gridiron, Lehigh and Fordham both come to mind despite each of their horrific seasons. Obviously, even before Fordham, Colgate comes to mind too. And yeah, maybe-maybe Holy Cross is going to get back in that direction as well. Maybe. But then there's everyone else. The teams that truly don't seem to care about football at all. Ones like Lafayette, Bucknell and at the top of the list, Georgetown. Yet, despite no scholarships, no administration backing, no attendance, no stadium the Hoyas are a Colgate win away from possibly winning this whole league!

Personally I usually root for underdogs so I'll be rooting for Georgetown but what would it say to everyone else if they won it all? Forget scholarships? Forget about advancing football facilities? Trim coaching salaries? How would that change the direction of a league that already seems to want different things from different members? Would Georgetown winning the league make a further football deemphasis more palatable for Lafayette, Bucknell and maybe a few others too?

NY Crusader 2010
October 22nd, 2018, 08:41 PM
LC killed Lafayette Athletics. They enthusiastically embraced non-scholarship men's (and by extension women's) basketball and they paid the price. O'Hanlon worked hard and got the occasional solid team but was up and down, and Lafayette was one of the final PL schools, I believe to offer any basketball scholarships.

They were the last. I believe the 2007-2008 season was the first year they had a full complement of scholarship players.

DFW HOYA
October 22nd, 2018, 09:44 PM
The teams that truly don't seem to care about football at all. Ones like Lafayette, Bucknell and at the top of the list, Georgetown. Yet, despite no scholarships, no administration backing, no attendance, no stadium the Hoyas are a Colgate win away from possibly winning this whole league!

We've been through some of these issues before but do not confuse "no scholarships" with "no administration backing".

Georgetown has a certain myopia about athletic scholarships but it is a byproduct of the most diverse admissions pool in the league and the institutional demand to provide 100% need based, full need aid--a offer which only Holy Cross meets, but for half the number of applicants each year. With more first generation students coming to Georgetown than ever before, need based aid is a huge driver, and with only 60 athletic scholarships across 14 other men's sports, it's a no-sell to argue that GU needs to double that amount just to be competitive in the PL.

Football gets administrative backing. Its budget is hampered by the significant chunk of the budget devoted to basketball, but again that's a tough argument that less must be spent on a major revenue sport just to support another team just to be competitive in the PL, which isn't even Georgetown's main athletic conference. And, of course, Georgetown is the only PL school whose college president actually played college football at that school. He knows first hand why they play the game.

Franks Tanks
October 22nd, 2018, 10:21 PM
To catch up on some previous comments here... When you think about PL teams that seem to care about the classroom and (to some extent at least) the gridiron, Lehigh and Fordham both come to mind despite each of their horrific seasons. Obviously, even before Fordham, Colgate comes to mind too. And yeah, maybe-maybe Holy Cross is going to get back in that direction as well. Maybe. But then there's everyone else. The teams that truly don't seem to care about football at all. Ones like Lafayette, Bucknell and at the top of the list, Georgetown. Yet, despite no scholarships, no administration backing, no attendance, no stadium the Hoyas are a Colgate win away from possibly winning this whole league!

Personally I usually root for underdogs so I'll be rooting for Georgetown but what would it say to everyone else if they won it all? Forget scholarships? Forget about advancing football facilities? Trim coaching salaries? How would that change the direction of a league that already seems to want different things from different members? Would Georgetown winning the league make a further football deemphasis more palatable for Lafayette, Bucknell and maybe a few others too?

Lafayette offers 60 scholarships, still has the best stadium in the league and I believe the 3rd highest football budget. By Patriot League standards of caring Lafayette most certainly does. What we’ve had was terrible coaching for about a decade, and an AD who refused to hold anyone accountable. The Lafayette athletic department has a long way to go, but the pieces are there for this team to be successful in the league.

Sader87
October 23rd, 2018, 06:41 AM
The elephant or 800 lbs gorilla (or choose your very own zoo animal :) ) in the room, is the rapidly declining attendance, lack of student support etc for PL football at all the membah schools.

Do 5 or 6 home Saturdays in the Fall with crowds of roughly 3,000 warrant annual football budgets in the $5MM range?

I'm not arguing here that it doesn't...but you know the administrations at every school will be asking themselves that question soon if they aren't already doing so now.

Go Lehigh TU Owl
October 23rd, 2018, 08:02 AM
The elephant or 800 lbs gorilla (or choose your very own zoo animal :) ) in the room, is the rapidly declining attendance, lack of student support etc for PL football at all the membah schools.

Do 5 or 6 home Saturdays in the Fall with crowds of roughly 3,000 warrant annual football budgets in the $5MM range?

I'm not arguing here that it doesn't...but you know the administrations at every school will be asking themselves that question soon if they aren't already doing so now.

Not everyone in the league has terrible attendance. Lehigh and Lafayette have both had several crowds in the 6-9k range in recent years despite having some ugly teams. Those two are located in a football hotbed filled with just enough curious locals to sustain respectable FCS attendance. I still think a 10k home average for Lehigh is possible if the stars would align with a good team and right opponents. Holy Cross is in the same boat in terms of respectable attendance.

The issues really lie in DC and Lewisburg imo. Bucknell's apparent indifference to football is scary. I honestly think they care less than Georgetown.

Sader87
October 23rd, 2018, 08:21 AM
Attendance is horrific throughout the league, understandable given the results this year but it hasn't been a 1 year phenomenon.

Colgate and Bucknell are in sparsely populated/remote regions....so they have a built-in excuse to a degree but neither school has seen a crowd above 10K in years. Fordham really hasn't drawn too well lately and even if they did the "stadium" seats like 7K. Lehigh and Lafayette have historically drawn well but their #'s have bottomed out in the last 5 years or so. Georgetown isn't even in the discussion when it comes to attendance figures. As for HC, there were more HC people at the BC game this year, roughly 10K, than at any game at Fitton this year.

I'm not arguing attendance #'s are the be all and end all for a football program. HC will continue to have D1 football (for the time being anyway) as a backdrop for Homecoming, President Council (fundraising), playing the Ivies etc etc but to ignore that attendance is cratering in this league is to ignore the obvious imo.

van
October 23rd, 2018, 08:56 AM
Hoyas can never draw big numbers with the stadium in its current configuration, on the other hand they get a full house, who knows what they might draw if they had a decent place

Franks Tanks
October 23rd, 2018, 09:40 AM
Attendance is horrific throughout the league, understandable given the results this year but it hasn't been a 1 year phenomenon.

Colgate and Bucknell are in sparsely populated/remote regions....so they have a built-in excuse to a degree but neither school has seen a crowd above 10K in years. Fordham really hasn't drawn too well lately and even if they did the "stadium" seats like 7K. Lehigh and Lafayette have historically drawn well but their #'s have bottomed out in the last 5 years or so. Georgetown isn't even in the discussion when it comes to attendance figures. As for HC, there were more HC people at the BC game this year, roughly 10K, than at any game at Fitton this year.

I'm not arguing attendance #'s are the be all and end all for a football program. HC will continue to have D1 football (for the time being anyway) as a backdrop for Homecoming, President Council (fundraising), playing the Ivies etc etc but to ignore that attendance is cratering in this league is to ignore the obvious imo.

You’re absolutely correct, especially is noting a significant drop in the last few years.

Colgate- nice stadium and good football, but little local population. Binghamton, Syracuse and Utica are all at least an hour away so a bit of a commitment to attend for locals who are due hard fans. Campus is also a haul from the population centers on the east coast where most alums reside.

Fordham- small time stadium, and lots to do in NYC on nice fall afternoon. Campus also not the easiest to get to from the burbs, and some folks get intimidated driving into the Bronx and dealing with NYC traffic. Roughly 20 million people in a 60 mile radius however, so they should do a little better!

Georgetown- hard to say what they are capable of without a decent stadium. Traffic and parking can be horrendous, so many must feel it’s not worth the hassle.

Bucknell- probably the most underperforming school. Far for most alums, but enough local population to drive decent numbers if locals were somewhat engaged. Being close to PSU is rough. However D2 Bloomsburg, about 30 miles away, managed about 5k per game.

Cross, Lafayette and Lehigh have the most potential to draw. All are obviously located in small to medium sized cities with a good local population. Also close to major cities where a good deal of alums reside.

The issue at Lafayette in particular is just too many years of bad football. People used to stay away because the stadium was poor and I get that, but now it’s just indifference among our alums, students and locals. In the years after the stadium opened and the team was good, attendance was great. Homecoming and Family weekend games drew 7-9k, and we had decent support from locals. Colgate in 09 in November had 9,700. Early season games against the likes of Penn and Princeton on special weekends drew 8-9k. Two weeks ago they said we had 5k for homecoming, but probably had 3k in the stands. We really screwed up the momentum by having such a poor product for far too long.

Lehigh Football Nation
October 23rd, 2018, 09:52 AM
Attendance is horrific throughout the league, understandable given the results this year but it hasn't been a 1 year phenomenon.

Colgate and Bucknell are in sparsely populated/remote regions....so they have a built-in excuse to a degree but neither school has seen a crowd above 10K in years. Fordham really hasn't drawn too well lately and even if they did the "stadium" seats like 7K. Lehigh and Lafayette have historically drawn well but their #'s have bottomed out in the last 5 years or so. Georgetown isn't even in the discussion when it comes to attendance figures. As for HC, there were more HC people at the BC game this year, roughly 10K, than at any game at Fitton this year.

I'm not arguing attendance #'s are the be all and end all for a football program. HC will continue to have D1 football (for the time being anyway) as a backdrop for Homecoming, President Council (fundraising), playing the Ivies etc etc but to ignore that attendance is cratering in this league is to ignore the obvious imo.

The HC game vs. BC was well attended, despite the predestined outcome, because it was an event. It was an ancient Rivalry that was the first time anyone could see a BC/HC game in decades. There were marching bands, students, professional people running the entertainment for the fans.

Games need to be events. Not every event is equal but something has to be really damned compelling for someone to spend an entire day coming out to the stadium. There needs to be compelling tailgates, college football things you can't get at home (marching bands, a DJ, dancers, crowds) and hopefully a good football team as well.

There are only two marching bands in the Patriot League - Lehigh's and Holy Cross'. Colgate, Fordham, Georgetown, Lafayette and Bucknell have pep bands. A dirty little secret is that nobody goes to a college football game to watch pep bands. However a decent marching band engages students and alumni to go to games where they might not ordinarily go. 100 marching band members, 100 parents/alums and 50 support staff - that's a pretty good travelling troupe right there, and a built-in party.

I do believe that there are ways to make home football games more of a party atmosphere, but it requires money and organization. It requires some cultivation of a positive tailgate culture, it requires a homecoming (something that was not set up this year for Lehigh, which is a break from years past and incomprehensible, IMO) and it requires ancillary spending that may not seem like a "get me a profit today" spending item but is exactly what causes people to return. A lot of my love of Lehigh football came from showing up at tailgates with my pals, sharing some beers, rolling into the stadium and taking in everything that the game had to offer - and not just Lehigh/Lafayette. I've been to loads of non-Lafayette games. Building that sort of culture takes time and money, with uncertain payoff - but I believe it does indeed pay off. So in many ways, all of this tailgate crack-downs and lack of spirit teams is an offshoot of the John "Athletics is a money-making-operation or it's worthless" Silber bull**** that has infected our thinking about college sports and needs to be challenged and eradicated.

Not every game needs to be Lehigh/Lafayette or BC/HC, but every team should have at least one of those types of games on the schedule every year. There needs to be a long tailgate time, a band, spirit teams, parades, hell, maybe even concerts. What I am confident in saying is that there is a lot of stuff that isn't being tried that could be.

DFW HOYA
October 23rd, 2018, 12:00 PM
110% agree with the above post. PL teams may not be in "the entertainment business", as one former president put it, but the ability to provide a memorable pre-game, halftime, and post-game experience is vital to the cause. In almost all cases, they fail to do so. Lehigh has the last of the PL marching bands (HC is now more of an ensemble) and the other schools certainly could take a lesson from what a halftime show means:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLA8tTAX7R8

And while I've posted this before, this clip is what a college football pre-game is all about. Not a fan of the Domers but one can't help but be impressed..and no band scholarships among them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH0zgyaHKg0&feature=youtu.be&t=55

ngineer
October 23rd, 2018, 12:05 PM
Hoyas can never draw big numbers with the stadium in its current configuration, on the other hand they get a full house, who knows what they might draw if they had a decent place

I've been to G'town a number of times, and it just seems that a nice 5,000 seat stadium at their current location would be great. Being right on campus it should be easy to pull in even the casually interested students.

ngineer
October 23rd, 2018, 12:27 PM
110% agree with the above post. PL teams may not be in "the entertainment business", as one former president put it, but the ability to provide a memorable pre-game, halftime, and post-game experience is vital to the cause. In almost all cases, they fail to do so. Lehigh has the last of the PL marching bands (HC is now more of an ensemble) and the other schools certainly could take a lesson from what a halftime show means:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLA8tTAX7R8

T
And while I've posted this before, this clip is what a college football pre-game is all about. Not a fan of the Domers but one can't help but be impressed..and no band scholarships among them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xH0zgyaHKg0&feature=youtu.be&t=55

Thanks for posting that DFW--that always brings a smile to my face. That was a great halftime show and the way it developed with the 'pards pep band not leaving the field. I must say, the Marching '97's presence at Lehigh's football games really helps make the atmosphere. The constant music coming out of the stands with the various familiar fight songs and stand songs ("Theme to Hogan's Heroes", and "The Stripper"--played while a couple members strip down to their undies, if they cannot 'cojole' a visiting band member or cheerleader to lead them) make for a unique atmosphere. Unfortunately, with this year's abomination, the '97 are all about we've had to cheer. For a band made up of non-music majors, they do a great job.

RichH2
October 23rd, 2018, 12:38 PM
Thanks for posting that DFW--that always brings a smile to my face. That was a great halftime show and the way it developed with the 'pards pep band not leaving the field. I must say, the Marching '97's presence at Lehigh's football games really helps make the atmosphere. The constant music coming out of the stands with the various familiar fight songs and stand songs ("Theme to Hogan's Heroes", and "The Stripper"--played while a couple members strip down to their undies, if they cannot 'cojole' a visiting band member or cheerleader to lead them) make for a unique atmosphere. Unfortunately, with this year's abomination, the '97 are all about we've had to cheer. For a band made up of non-music majors, they do a great job.

Glad to see the 97 back at full strength. Had quite a few less for some years. A while back, band allowed alums to march also and got some help from Admin for recruiting.xthumbsupx

Neighbor2
October 23rd, 2018, 12:56 PM
The Lehigh football experience is in dire need of a large video board. With the grandstands located so far back from the sideline it would be nice to see replays up close, etc. Can't imagine why there isn't already a large board at Goodman already. It would even help the Graduation experience.

RichH2
October 23rd, 2018, 01:09 PM
The Lehigh football experience is in dire need of a large video board. With the grandstands located so far back from the sideline it would be nice to see replays up close, etc. Can't imagine why there isn't already a large board at Goodman already. It would even help the Graduation experience.

Yup.

LUHawker
October 23rd, 2018, 01:23 PM
Lafayette ... still has the best stadium in the league a

Me thinks you are a bit biased on this point.

PAllen
October 23rd, 2018, 06:30 PM
Me thinks you are a bit biased on this point.

I'll give him top 2.

ngineer
October 23rd, 2018, 09:15 PM
The Lehigh football experience is in dire need of a large video board. With the grandstands located so far back from the sideline it would be nice to see replays up close, etc. Can't imagine why there isn't already a large board at Goodman already. It would even help the Graduation experience.

Simply $$$. Write your check and put your name on it. They have been looking into a large video board that can be disassembled for use elsewhere on campus, in smaller size, i.e. a section could be used in Grace Hall for Wrestling. I do note the current scoreboard had problems during the Fordham game. So if it dies, it may force the administration's hand.

Bill
October 23rd, 2018, 09:24 PM
Simply $$$. Write your check and put your name on it. They have been looking into a large video board that can be disassembled for use elsewhere on campus, in smaller size, i.e. a section could be used in Grace Hall for Wrestling. I do note the current scoreboard had problems during the Fordham game. So if it dies, it may force the administration's hand.

ngineer - this is the biggest issue I have with Lehigh's higher administration. If the school chooses to sponsor varsity football at the FCS level, then it needs to make the financial commitment - not wait until they can convince / shame some alum into donating it. Lehigh does not lack for money as a whole, but the way some of the sports (including football) are nickeld and dimed is embarrassing.