Don't expect more D2 FB move ups to FCS

[Laker]

http://www.inforum.com/sports/football/4502102-mcfeely-dont-expect-any-more-division-i-fcs-help-division-ii#.W6PjJ7Rgy_g.twitter

[Silenoz]

If once-powerful schools like Delaware and Montana can regain their former glory and relative newcomers like North Dakota and South Dakota can match their in-state rivals, FCS would be more competitive.


Wait, it's on us four now? Well we're ****ed.

[Sader87]

Yeah....I wouldn't expect too many more "jump ups" to FCS anytime soon. Merrimack is supposedly going into the NEC but that's the only one I can think of in the Northeast for the next couple years probably.

The level, as the article stated, is just too expensive for most schools with not enough "bang for the buck" with the upgrade.

[Go...gate]

Good, though sobering, article. It is up to the teams already here to improve the subdivision.

[bonarae]

Good, though sobering, article. It is up to the teams already here to improve the subdivision.

And also here's to hoping the club football teams that have D-I sports in general to move their programs up to varsity status... xcoffeex

[Catatonic]

Several schools from the D2 Lone Star Conference have expressed an interest in moving up. Tarleton State Is actively looking for a conference invite, and a couple of others have said they are interested.

[RootinFerDukes]

Can we relegate some of FCS to D2 and D3 where they honestly should be?

[Bison56]

Can we relegate some of FCS to D2 and D3 where they honestly should be?

^this

[Go Green]

Can we relegate some of FCS to D2 and D3 where they honestly should be?

Dayton rule.

[UNHWildcat18]

Can we relegate some of FCS to D2 and D3 where they honestly should be?

just like how some in the G5 should be FCS

[RootinFerDukes]

just like how some in the G5 should be FCS

Yep. Hell... some are borderline as to whether they should even be FCS. MAC and Sun Belt, looking at you.

[UNHWildcat18]

Yep. Hell... some are borderline as to whether they should even be FCS. MAC and Sun Belt, looking at you.

I think we will see schools at all levels drop football in the not too distant future

[Laker]

I think we will see schools at all levels drop football in the not too distant future

The Big East is pretty happy not to have football members. They are stable now, and can pretty much invite any non-football playing schools if they want.

I wonder if we won't see some schools having buyer's remorse about changing conferences. I wouldn't see anyone leaving the Big Ten or the SEC- the ACC has a long term deal set up- the 12 PAC is hurting and the Dirty Dozen minus two can't decide what they should do. I see schools going to FBS and almost disappearing from view. I could understand it if they had success at the FCS level but too many of those schools never did.

Interesting article of what might have happened if certain schools- in this case Arkansas- had stayed where they were. History never reveals the alternatives.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/21/sports/ncaa-football-arkansas-sec.html

[RootinFerDukes]

I think we will see schools at all levels drop football in the not too distant future

Or follow in Idaho's footsteps and realize their fiscal place is in FCS.

[RichH2]

It is not improbable that there will be more reshuffling of D 1 levels below the P5. It all depends on the economy. The current fiscal pressure on State's and Local govts , if unabated over the next few years, will fuel a rather major reshuffle.

[Yote 53]

The economy is booming and has been doing well for quite some time. If we can't fund our governments and our learning institutions in the current environment what is is going to look like when it does get bad? Like 1970's decade long bad. We don't have a funding issue in this country, we have a misplaced priorities issue.

[RichH2]

The economy is booming and has been doing well for quite some time. If we can't fund our governments and our learning institutions in the current environment what is is going to look like when it does get bad? Like 1970's decade long bad. We don't have a funding issue in this country, we have a misplaced priorities issue.

Exactly. Fed tax cuts do little however to boost income across the board. It is top heavy. Current policies are shifting tax burdens to States. States have yet to catch up. It is not likely States will be able to do so without raising taxes and/or cutting expenditures. Not a conducive atmosphere for lower level state schools.

[UNAPride]

I think West Florida will eventually make the move. Maybe West Georgia. Not sure any other GSC schools have the $$$ and fan support to reclassify.

[JacksFan40]

Yep. Hell... some are borderline as to whether they should even be FCS. MAC and Sun Belt, looking at you.
C-USA is worse than Sun Belt, Sun Belt is easily 3rd best G5 behind AAC and MWC.

[smallcollegefbfan]

Yep. Hell... some are borderline as to whether they should even be FCS. MAC and Sun Belt, looking at you.

Yes so many from all. If they just set the attendance mark at 15,000 average for FBS and then said all FCS must give 63 scholarships you could see these changes.

FBS teams that should drop to FCS
Ball State
Buffalo
Central Michigan
Charlotte
Eastern Michigan
FIU
Idaho- has dropped down
Kent State
UL Monroe
UMASS
New Mexico State
Northern Illinois
San Jose State


FCS teams that should drop to D2
All Pioneer League teams
Rhode Island
Bucknell
Albany
Del State
Duquesne
Houston Baptist
Georgetown
Presbyterian
Saint Francis PA
UT Martin
Wagner

Those are just to name a few in FCS.

Then Montana, James Madison, NDSU, and Jacksonville State could move up to G5 level.

There are some other G5s like Tulane, Lafayette, and probably 5-8 others who should drop down to FCS. FBS should have about 110 teams and even then I would probably raise the attendance criteria up to 18,000 after 3 years of dropping all these teams down.

- - - Updated - - -


C-USA is worse than Sun Belt, Sun Belt is easily 3rd best G5 behind AAC and MWC.

It is not all about how good a team is but their money, attendance, etc. There are teams in the Sun Belt, MAC, and C-USA who should drop down. There are even some in the MWC like San Jose State and a couple AAC teams who could.

[Go...gate]

Dayton rule.

The NCAA needs to repeal that damned rule.

[Go Green]

The NCAA needs to repeal that damned rule.

I agree. But until that happens, those teams' choices are either FCS or disbanding.

[Sader87]

It'll be interesting how it breaks out in maybe 5-10 years...picking on Coastal Carolina, but there are many of their ilk in the FBS, whose attendance is pretty low (I think CCU averaged undah 10K last year), really don't have the financial where-with-all to finance 85 schollies and their matching Title IX schollies, don't have great endowments to help etc etc etc....I realize Moglia could finance this himself lol but you get my drift.

My guess? As others have stipulated here, the P5 and some select others will pull away. The G5 will drop to the new FCS level, some will drop the sport rather than play at the new FCS level.

[thebootfitter]

My guess? As others have stipulated here, the P5 and some select others will pull away. The G5 will drop to the new FCS level, some will drop the sport rather than play at the new FCS level.
Not a bad guess... but for how long have folks been guessing something like that will happen? Yet it doesn't feel like we're any closer to it actually happening. Idaho dropped, sure, but there are many other schools that have "moved up" like UMass, Old Dominion, GA Southern, GA State, Coastal Carolina, not to mention all those that have moved up into FCS.

[BisonFan02]

Yes so many from all. If they just set the attendance mark at 15,000 average for FBS and then said all FCS must give 63 scholarships you could see these changes.

FBS teams that should drop to FCS
Ball State
Buffalo
Central Michigan
Charlotte
Eastern Michigan
FIU
Idaho- has dropped down
Kent State
UL Monroe
UMASS
New Mexico State
Northern Illinois
San Jose State


FCS teams that should drop to D2
All Pioneer League teams
Rhode Island
Bucknell
Albany
Del State
Duquesne
Houston Baptist
Georgetown
Presbyterian
Saint Francis PA
UT Martin
Wagner

Those are just to name a few in FCS.

Then Montana, James Madison, NDSU, and Jacksonville State could move up to G5 level.

There are some other G5s like Tulane, Lafayette, and probably 5-8 others who should drop down to FCS. FBS should have about 110 teams and even then I would probably raise the attendance criteria up to 18,000 after 3 years of dropping all these teams down.

- - - Updated - - -



It is not all about how good a team is but their money, attendance, etc. There are teams in the Sun Belt, MAC, and C-USA who should drop down. There are even some in the MWC like San Jose State and a couple AAC teams who could.

Can't play D2 football and keep the rest of the sports D1....they would all drop football before doing that.

[DFW HOYA]

This thread is puzzling--half of it seems to be arguing relegation, half some sort of redefinition of divisions by attendance, the same attendance criteria which would drop many of these same schools to D2 or worse in basketball.

The divisional structure is not about enrollment or attendance. It is based in no small part on sports sponsored.

[WTFCollegefootballfan]

Denny Sanford and Soiux Falls business men, are donating 600 million to Augustana, so they can move to FCS and D1.

[Bill]

OK, but they still need a conference...is it the Summit?

[Laker]

OK, but they still need a conference...is it the Summit?

It sounds like the Pioneer for football and the Summit for all other sports.

[UNAPride]

Presbyterian should have never left D2. Terrible, terrible decision. They weren't even competitive in D2! In anything. (Possibly wrong on all teams but I followed most sports in UNA's region for years on don't recall many post-season bids for them). Tiny school. Just no. Should go back to D2 in all sports. And that's not a slight. I love D2. Many schools in D2 are a perfect fit there. Have no idea what compelled the Blue Hose folks to reclassify.

[WestCoastAggie]

Presbyterian should have never left D2. Terrible, terrible decision. They weren't even competitive in D2! In anything. (Possibly wrong on all teams but I followed most sports in UNA's region for years on don't recall many post-season bids for them). Tiny school. Just no. Should go back to D2 in all sports. And that's not a slight. I love D2. Many schools in D2 are a perfect fit there. Have no idea what compelled the Blue Hose folks to reclassify.

Desire to keep up with Furman and Wofford?

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Denny Sanford and Soiux Falls business men, are donating 600 million to Augustana, so they can move to FCS and D1.


Up to 600 million now?

Link for this?

[Twentysix]

Denny Sanford and Soiux Falls business men, are donating 600 million to Augustana, so they can move to FCS and D1.


What for? As an athletic endowment or something? That seems like an insane amount of starting capital to go DI.

[Laker]

Denny Sanford and Soiux Falls business men, are donating 600 million to Augustana, so they can move to FCS and D1.

I'm always on the D2 board in addition to this one- one of my best friends lives in Sioux Falls. I haven't seen one story with that number. Please give me a source for this number.

MSU-Mankato got 6 million from Sanford for men's and women's basketball at a game last season.

[WTFCollegefootballfan]

Here one story about fund raising. I'm still looking for the original article. In posted it on FCS football fans nation this summer.
https://kstp.com/business/some-boosters-want-south-dakotas-augustana-on-bigger-stage-/4962254/

[WTFCollegefootballfan]

http://www.wdaz.com/sports/basketball/4478725-kolpack-all-vital-signs-pointing-augustana-joining-summit-league


https://www.argusleader.com/story/sports/college/augustana-university/2018/04/13/analysis-augustana-ready-make-division-leap/511148002/

[Reign of Terrier]

C-USA is worse than Sun Belt, Sun Belt is easily 3rd best G5 behind AAC and MWC.

This development is really weird to me. It used to be that the AAC was the Big East ("power 6" or whatever), Conference USA and the Mountain West were really good and then there was a HUGE gap and the Sun Belt was the worst.

Now App State, Georgia Southern and former FCS powers have turned the division around.


Presbyterian should have never left D2. Terrible, terrible decision. They weren't even competitive in D2! In anything. (Possibly wrong on all teams but I followed most sports in UNA's region for years on don't recall many post-season bids for them). Tiny school. Just no. Should go back to D2 in all sports. And that's not a slight. I love D2. Many schools in D2 are a perfect fit there. Have no idea what compelled the Blue Hose folks to reclassify.


Desire to keep up with Furman and Wofford?

^^^this is basically it.

I hear that "back in the day," Wofford's big dilemma was D3 or FCS (then 1-AA). D2 was a no man's land in terms of recruiting because academic standards were (supposedly) very lax, so it made it hard to compete and keep our standards. We wanted to keep our standards, did a feasibility study, etc, etc and ultimately went FCS.

Wofford lucked out compared to other small schools in South Carolina because we're the only one that made the transition successfully. We lucked out with Marshall going FBS, opening a position in the Southern Conference, but other than that it was all "earned." We benefited from having alumnus Jerry Richardson, former owner of the Carolina Panthers and other local business big shots (Roger Millikan, Sandor Teszler, Jimmy Gibbs, just to name a few) be supportive of the school and athletic program in general. We also benefited from not being in rural bumb**** nowhere like PC or Newberry. Spartanburg isn't the best place in the world but it's better than those places. We also benefited from having Mike Ayers as the head of our program, proving that we could consistently win games at this level AND keep our standards.

Now, compare that to Wofford's former rivals of PC and Newberry. Newberry stayed division 2 and no one in South Carolina wants to go there. They embraced the "no man's land" aspect of D2. PC's thinking about 10 years ago was the same as ours: they wanted to stay competitive and they wanted to keep their academic standards. The problem was, they didn't have a Mike Ayers (Coach Bentley, at the time of transition, was a good one and had lots of success at Byrnes High School and is now the running backs coach at South Carolina, but he left abruptly) and they didn't have the funding/financial support that Wofford had.

Small private schools at the FCS level like Wofford, PC, Furman, etc depend heavily on FBS games and big donor alumni to keep their program afloat, at least relative to state and directional state universities. If you can't win, you won't stay afloat at this level.

As explained above, PC didn't have the same ingredients Wofford had. Because they couldn't maintain success, they couldn't recruit at the level they wanted or give big-donor alumni a reason to donate. This meant they needed to play 2 FBS teams a year to make up the difference, which made it harder to make the playoffs or schedule winnable games, which made it harder to improve, harder to recruit, harder to be successful. It's a vicious cycle.

I don't think Furman could ever become like PC because their endowment is so huge ($661m compared to Wofford's $184m compared to PC's <$100m), but Wofford definitely can't afford to be irrelevant at this level. Winning is important for us because it keeps the money flowing for the rest of the athletic program.

You can't profit from your FBS games without happy big-money donors. You can't profit from happy big-money donors if you don't win consistently. And you can't win consistently without the money flowing. So anything that disrupts any one of these things (FBS games, success, donors) disrupts the whole system. Winning just so happens to be the vulnerable to change.

[WTFCollegefootballfan]

I have read that Denny Sanford has already donated 100- 150 Million to Augustana. I can't find the article again. I read on SDSU's fan page this spring about the donations. They were saying Sioux Falls business men were willing to donate 300-600 million for Augustana to move up. This will include scholarships and new facilities.

[Go...gate]

Up to 600 million now?

Link for this?

Better than going to taxpayers to go more deeply into their pockets every year, as Rutgers does.