Pioneer Conference School Davidson eliminating need-based aid

[Go...gate]

From now on, no student loans; students who need have financial aid will be awarded grants and/or work-study to allow them to graduate debt-free. They are aligning themselves with several of the Ivy League schools in this regard.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

From now on, no student loans; students who need have financial aid will be awarded grants and/or work-study to allow them to graduate debt-free. They are aligning themselves with several of the Ivy League schools in this regard.

Link? Also, what's their endowment? The Ivies have huge amounts of endowment dollars for aid - is Davidson's comparable?

[MplsBison]

20k/year work study?

Haha, better sign up at the same car lot as Bomar!

[OL FU]

Link? Also, what's their endowment? The Ivies have huge amounts of endowment dollars for aid - is Davidson's comparable?


http://www3.davidson.edu/cms/x22786.xml

[Go...gate]

Link? Also, what's their endowment? The Ivies have huge amounts of endowment dollars for aid - is Davidson's comparable?

This is also on Yahoo.

[DFW HOYA]

Davidson's endowment is $330 million, however, they only have 400 freshmen a year.

The tone of the article suggests this is a sea change when in fact it may not be. Davidson will spend only about $3.5 million to buy out the loan components--a lot of students still go to Davidson and will pay full freight. At schools where a larger share of studetns rely on loans, the costs would be significantly higher.

How does this affect Davidson football? Well, a little, but it's still OK since the Pioneer simply wants athletic aid to be consistent with the student body as a whole.

[Franks Tanks]

Davidson's endowment is $330 million, however, they only have 400 freshmen a year.

The tone of the article suggests this is a sea change when in fact it may not be. Davidson will spend only about $3.5 million to buy out the loan components--a lot of students still go to Davidson and will pay full freight. At schools where a larger share of studetns rely on loans, the costs would be significantly higher.

How does this affect Davidson football? Well, a little, but it's still OK since the Pioneer simply wants athletic aid to be consistent with the student body as a whole.

Davison already tried the Patriot, well actuallt the colonial back then, and obviously not the right spot for them. Does this include all other sports. What about their SoCon champ basketball team that has performed very well lately? Are they willing to let that program stagnate?

[OL FU]

Davidson's endowment is $330 million, however, they only have 400 freshmen a year.

The tone of the article suggests this is a sea change when in fact it may not be. Davidson will spend only about $3.5 million to buy out the loan components--a lot of students still go to Davidson and will pay full freight. At schools where a larger share of studetns rely on loans, the costs would be significantly higher.

How does this affect Davidson football? Well, a little, but it's still OK since the Pioneer simply wants athletic aid to be consistent with the student body as a whole.

Still means no athletic scholarships right for football, right?

Is this cost containment or principle?
Do they give athletic scholarships for other sports? They are in the SoCon I should know but I don't?

[Mr. C]

Nearly every student at Davidson is on some sort of scholarship, so I'm not sure this means anything in the big scheme of things. It would be interesting to know what the real reason for doing this was?

[OL FU]

Nearly every student at Davidson is on some sort of scholarship, so I'm not sure this means anything in the big scheme of things. It would be interesting to know what the real reason for doing this was?

Last I heard the same can be said for Furman with respect to the vast majority have some sort of aid.
It sounds like a good thing, they are eliminating the loan component of financial aid and replacing with a grant. If the endowment can handle it, I say kudos to Davidson ( if I understand all this College financing stuff)

Now let's step up that football progam.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

To me, from the Yahoo! article, the most important part of it was a completely unrelated point:


The announcement comes as education leaders across the country debate ways to prevent college campuses from welcoming only rich students.

Elite universities such as Princeton and Columbia have eliminated or significantly reduced loans by awarding more grant money.

Others, such as Harvard and Yale, have stopped requiring lower-income families to contribute to the cost of attending — an amount of money usually expected based on federal financial aid calculations. And even public universities, such as the University of North Carolina, have stopped forcing loans upon the neediest students.

Could this be one of the MAJOR factors that the Patriot League feels squeezed for football talent? More scholarship money, *ahem* I mean need-based aid, for Ivy League members? xeyebrowx

[Mr. C]

Davison already tried the Patriot, well actuallt the colonial back then, and obviously not the right spot for them. Does this include all other sports. What about their SoCon champ basketball team that has performed very well lately? Are they willing to let that program stagnate?
Davidson isn't giving up anything for the other sports, just football. Davidson hasn't really given a rip for football in some years, so this has the effect of looking good to peers in educational circles, while not really changing much.

I guarantee you, Davidson is still going to give out athletic scholarships for basketball. If they made any changes in that, the SoCon would kick them out of the conference again (like they did when the Wildcats deemphasized football in the late 1980s). Without basketball, Davidson doesn't have a lot to offer to anyone athletically.

[OL FU]

To me, from the Yahoo! article, the most important part of it was a completely unrelated point:



Could this be one of the MAJOR factors that the Patriot League feels squeezed for football talent? More scholarship money, *ahem* I mean need-based aid, for Ivy League members? xeyebrowx

If that is the case, then isn't it time for the Patriot League to start playing in the real worldxsmiley_wix

[OL FU]

Davidson isn't giving up anything for the other sports, just football. Davidson hasn't really given a rip for football in some years, so this has the effect of looking good to peers in educational circles, while not really changing much.

I guarantee you, Davidson is still going to give out athletic scholarships for basketball. If they made any changes in that, the SoCon would kick them out of the conference again (like they did when the Wildcats deemphasized football in the late 1980s). Without basketball, Davidson doesn't have a lot to offer to anyone athletically.

So, as I thought this is really not going to impact footballxnodx

[Mr. C]

To me, from the Yahoo! article, the most important part of it was a completely unrelated point:



Could this be one of the MAJOR factors that the Patriot League feels squeezed for football talent? More scholarship money, *ahem* I mean need-based aid, for Ivy League members? xeyebrowx
The PL's dirty, little secret. Watch out, though, you are going to have Lehigh fans jumping all over your case for comparing need-based aid to scholarships. I know that from past things I've written.
:D :) xrotatehx xlolx xnodx xrolleyesx xcoolx :p ;) xeyebrowx xsmiley_wix :o xeekx xrotatehx xcoolx xnodx :D

[Mr. C]

Still means no athletic scholarships right for football, right?

Is this cost containment or principle?
Do they give athletic scholarships for other sports? They are in the SoCon I should know but I don't?
Definitely principal, or would you rather say IMAGE. Yes they give scholarships in the other sports. One of the bones many in the SoCon have had over the years with their Davidson brothers has been how the Wildcats have been able to funnel more money into basketball, without the cost restrictions cause by football. A lot of people think it gives Davidson an unfair advantage in hoops.

[Mr. C]

So where are all of the Davidson posters to debate this issue with us?
:D :) xrotatehx xlolx xnodx xrolleyesx xcoolx :p ;) xeyebrowx xsmiley_wix :o xeekx :o :p xcoolx xrolleyesx xnodx :) xrotatehx xlolx :D

[dbackjon]

Definitely principal, or would you rather say IMAGE. Yes they give scholarships in the other sports. One of the bones many in the SoCon have had over the years with their Davidson brothers has been how the Wildcats have been able to funnel more money into basketball, without the cost restrictions cause by football. A lot of people think it gives Davidson an unfair advantage in hoops.

Do the football schools have the same bones with UNC-Greensboro and Charleston?

Only four Southern Conference schools had winning basketball records. App St was the only one with scholarship football.

[OL FU]

Definitely principal, or would you rather say IMAGE. Yes they give scholarships in the other sports. One of the bones many in the SoCon have had over the years with their Davidson brothers has been how the Wildcats have been able to funnel more money into basketball, without the cost restrictions cause by football. A lot of people think it gives Davidson an unfair advantage in hoops.


I don't think that is principle. If it was principle, they would do it for all sports. One more reason to not like Davidson

[OL FU]

Do the football schools have the same bones with UNC-Greensboro and Charleston?

Only four Southern Conference schools had winning basketball records. App St was the only one with scholarship football.

Yepxnodx

It should never have happenedxrolleyesx

[Mr. C]

Yes, they do. The football/basketball win comparison is interesting, but keep in mind Chattanooga normally is very good in basketball and Furman was much more talented this season than their record indicated (they did make the semifinals in the tournament, showing more of what I expected from them in the regular season). Western Carolina is up and down in hoops, though on the rise. Elon won a division title in 2006, but the Phoenix are usually pretty pathetic in basketball. Wofford never has been very good in BB, outside of a year or two and The Citadel is lucky to put together one good year (winning season) in four.

[Mr. C]

I don't think that is principle. If it was principle, they would do it for all sports. One more reason to not like Davidson
xlolx xnodx xrotatehx xlolx xnodx xrotatehx xlolx xnodx xrotatehx xlolx xnodx xrotatehx xlolx xnodx xrotatehx xlolx xnodx xrotatehx xlolx xlolx xnodx xrotatehx xlolx xnodx xrotatehx
Like Andre Agassi used to say in those camera commercials, "Image is everything."

[Go...gate]

To me, from the Yahoo! article, the most important part of it was a completely unrelated point:



Could this be one of the MAJOR factors that the Patriot League feels squeezed for football talent? More scholarship money, *ahem* I mean need-based aid, for Ivy League members? xeyebrowx

I think you are absolutely correct, and it may get worse.

[gr8ness97]

someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wasnt ETSU kicked out because they decided they couldnt AFFORD football? Why is Davidson allowed to stay in the SOCON if they dont have scholarship football? (All about money or image, maybe?)

[dbackjon]

Yes, they do. The football/basketball win comparison is interesting, but keep in mind Chattanooga normally is very good in basketball and Furman was much more talented this season than their record indicated (they did make the semifinals in the tournament, showing more of what I expected from them in the regular season). Western Carolina is up and down in hoops, though on the rise. Elon won a division title in 2006, but the Phoenix are usually pretty pathetic in basketball. Wofford never has been very good in BB, outside of a year or two and The Citadel is lucky to put together one good year (winning season) in four.

Interesting to note that in the CAA, 5 schools had winning records. Hofstra is the only one of the five to offer football schollies currently.

In the Big South, both teams with winning records don't offer football.

[OL FU]

someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wasnt ETSU kicked out because they decided they couldnt AFFORD football? Why is Davidson allowed to stay in the SOCON if they dont have scholarship football? (All about money or image, maybe?)

I believe there were two reasons. One) and this is a probably) Davidson has been in the conference since the 30's. Two) ETSU supposedly was the main opponent to allowing VMI to stay in the SoCon for all sports other than football and then after helping force VMI out, they cancelled football with a lot less notice than VMI. Lots of bad feelings and scheduling problems.

Also, Davidson was the first to do this back in the late 80's early 90's. Things change

[OL FU]

Interesting to note that in the CAA, 5 schools had winning records. Hofstra is the only one of the five to offer football schollies currently.

In the Big South, both teams with winning records don't offer football.

If we did not have non-football playing schools, we would not have a discrepancy in basketball recordsxrolleyesx

xlolx xrotatehx xlolx xrotatehx

[OL FU]

I just realized the title of this thread has a nice ring to it....xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx


Pioneer Conference School Davidson xchinscratchxxnodx

[Mr. C]

someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wasnt ETSU kicked out because they decided they couldnt AFFORD football? Why is Davidson allowed to stay in the SOCON if they dont have scholarship football? (All about money or image, maybe?)
Davidson WAS kicked out of the Southern Conference when they deemphasized football, as the conference followed the rules that are set down. But several years later, the Wildcats were brought back into the league in all other sports, because of the relationships between members.

The East Tennessee State thing is more complicated. Paul Stanton, ETSU's STUPID president, was going around with a flamethrower, torching every bridge he could find. He created so much ill will with the way he killed Buc football, that the rest of the conference would have pushed him off a cliff, if they'd had that option. Also, VMI had asked about moving to Davidson-style football and dropping out of the league in that sport, while staying on in everything else, just one year before ETSU withdrew (they left before they were kicked out). When VMI found out that it wouldn't get those concessions from the league, it left. There was no way ETSU could stay in the league in everything else after VMI had left for almost the same reasons.

[BigApp]

Do the football schools have the same bones with UNC-Greensboro and Charleston?



Yes.

[Mr. C]

I just realized the title of this thread has a nice ring to it....xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx

xchinscratchxxnodx
So you are suggesting ...

[OL FU]

Davidson WAS kicked out of the Southern Conference when they deemphasized football, as the conference followed the rules that are set down. But several years later, the Wildcats were brought back into the league in all other sports, because of the relationships between members.

Never knew that. xeekx

[BigApp]

I just realized the title of this thread has a nice ring to it....xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx xeyebrowx

xchinscratchxxnodx

nice catch! xlolx xthumbsupx xlolx

[OL FU]

So you are suggesting ...

I was just thinking maybe journalist should start using that as a lead in on a Davidson stories. You know something like, Furman's basketball team travels to North Carolina this weekend for a conference matchup with the Pioneer football league member Davidson Mildcatsxnodxxsmiley_wix

[BigApp]

Interesting to note that in the CAA, 5 schools had winning records. Hofstra is the only one of the five to offer football schollies currently.

In the Big South, both teams with winning records don't offer football.

If they had to put $$$ into a football program scholarships, they wouldn't have as much $$$ into their baskeyball teams.

[dbackjon]

If they had to put $$$ into a football program scholarships, they wouldn't have as much $$$ into their baskeyball teams.

Which is why I am glad the Big Sky does not allow non-football members, and requires all members to be at the counter-level minimum.

[BigApp]

as it should be!

[OL FU]

I realize that we are stealing the thread but as Mr. C stated it is a pity that we have no Davidson fans. It was a mistake for the SoCon to admit non-football schools. I always guessed that Davidson was allowed to remain because they, along with Furman, Citadel and VMI, were members in the '30's and that it was better to cut the older members some slack. Apparently that was not the case.

I also know that typically College of Charleston and Davidson and many years Greensboro are the cream of the basketball crop in the SoCon, but honestly, who cares? We have in the SoCon over the last week had many debates about what is important and what is not. One of the debates has been the relevance of academics in the conference. It is my opinion that all schools don't have to be academically equal but you don't want tremendous disparities either. At the same time and if the conference has football, all schools should participate in the the major sports (at a minimal football and basketball) even with the disparites in athletics that will occur. I would rather have 8,9 or 10 teams that play football and basketball, and lose the non-football schools even if our basketball reputation is hurt.

[dbackjon]

I realize that we are stealing the thread but as Mr. C stated it is a pity that we have no Davidson fans. It was a mistake for the SoCon to admit non-football schools. I always guessed that Davidson was allowed to remain because they, along with Furman, Citadel and VMI, were members in the '30's and that it was better to cut the older members some slack. Apparently that was not the case.

I also know that typically College of Charleston and Davidson and many years Greensboro are the cream of the basketball crop in the SoCon, but honestly, who cares? We have in the SoCon over the last week had many debates about what is important and what is not. One of the debates has been the relevance of academics in the conference. It is my opinion that all schools don't have to be academically equal but you don't want tremendous disparities either. At the same time and if the conference has football, all schools should participate in the the major sports (at a minimal football and basketball) even with the disparites in athletics that will occur. I would rather have 8,9 or 10 teams that play football and basketball, and lose the non-football schools even if our basketball reputation is hurt.

Amen to that!!

[BigApp]

Is this opposite day or something? This is the 3rd time I've caught myself actually agreeing with a Furmanite! http://planetsmilies.net/confused-smiley-17482.gif

[OL FU]

Is this opposite day or something? This is the 3rd time I've caught myself actually agreeing with a Furmanite! http://planetsmilies.net/confused-smiley-17482.gif

If you paid attention more, you probably would agree more:p

[CCU97]

OK...if you read this "In an effort to make a Davidson education affordable for all students, the Board of Trustees has approved a new policy that will eliminate loans from financial aid packages. Beginning in August, Davidson students will have their demonstrated financial need funded entirely through grants and student employment, and can graduate debt-free".

This is great for publicity...the problem you have is that student whose mom and dad make 50k a year...they have 8k in EFC(expected family contribution from the FAFSA....the way Need is determined is the Cost of Attendance(budget) - EFC = NEED...so lets say 40k-8k means Suzie or John will get 32k in either grants or work study....fair enough....but to not offer the 8k in loans they may need to cover all expenses(which in most cases the parent's haven't saved enough to actually pay...isn't really a good thing for the family....if Suzie or John's mom and dad only make 50k they probably can't afford the parent loan and would default....

This is nothing more than a public ploy to increase admission as students couldn't earn 20k in workstudy at only 20hrs a week and even with a large grant backing would still leave students with a somewhat large gap that would need to be met with loans....The family that is in an even worse situation is that of a family making 150k a year....let say an EFC of 35k...so the need is only 5 k....but mom and dad have a 400k house and are up to their eyeballs in debt(this is America)....they still really can't afford to send their kid to Davidson even though this press release would make it seem that they could....

[OL FU]

OK...if you read this "In an effort to make a Davidson education affordable for all students, the Board of Trustees has approved a new policy that will eliminate loans from financial aid packages. Beginning in August, Davidson students will have their demonstrated financial need funded entirely through grants and student employment, and can graduate debt-free".

This is great for publicity...the problem you have is that student whose mom and dad make 50k a year...they have 8k in EFC(expected family contribution from the FAFSA....the way Need is determined is the Cost of Attendance(budget) - EFC = NEED...so lets say 40k-8k means Suzie or John will get 32k in either grants or work study....fair enough....but to not offer the 8k in loans they may need to cover all expenses(which in most cases the parent's haven't saved enough to actually pay...isn't really a good thing for the family....if Suzie or John's mom and dad only make 50k they probably can't afford the parent loan and would default....

This is nothing more than a public ploy to increase admission as students couldn't earn 20k in workstudy at only 20hrs a week and even with a large grant backing would still leave students with a somewhat large gap that would need to be met with loans....The family that is in an even worse situation is that of a family making 150k a year....let say an EFC of 35k...so the need is only 5 k....but mom and dad have a 400k house and are up to their eyeballs in debt(this is America)....they still really can't afford to send their kid to Davidson even though this press release would make it seem that they could....

And yet another reason to not like Davidsonxmadx xnodx

[Go...gate]

I do think it further muddies the water on aid issues. It appears that Davidson is now similar to the Ivy League as to athletic aid - and where all PL schools used to be on this issue before we granted limited athletic scholarships in all sports except football.

[CCU97]

I agree...but you stated earlier....
Last I heard the same can be said for Furman with respect to the vast majority have some sort of aid.
It sounds like a good thing, they are eliminating the loan component of financial aid and replacing with a grant. If the endowment can handle it, I say kudos to Davidson ( if I understand all this College financing stuff)

Now let's step up that football progam.....Most schools can state that most students get some sort of aid....unless they pay out of pocket or an installment plan...they are receiving aid....even if it is just a student loan....those loans are backed by our tax dollars and are at lower rates and better terms than you or I could get at a bank....

The college financing game is a tangled web....in SC there is a program for all state schools in which they can use 4% of tuition from the previous year toward scholarships the following year....so each year in fact for every dollar that is spent on tuition by anyone....4 cents is given away to someone else....isn't life wonderfulxsmiley_wix

[CCU97]

And just to keep anyone from thinking I am full of BS on this matter....I have been working in financial aid for 9 years now....was a director in SC and now in GA.....this is a common practice used by many schools....OL FU...some of your other SoCon pals have been doing this for years....and Univ of SC and UNC went to this approach 4 years ago...both in an attempt to increase class sizes as they had decreased in a few previous years....it is a revenue thing....

[OL FU]

I agree...but you stated earlier........Most schools can state that most students get some sort of aid....unless they pay out of pocket or an installment plan...they are receiving aid....even if it is just a student loan....those loans are backed by our tax dollars and are at lower rates and better terms than you or I could get at a bank....

The college financing game is a tangled web....in SC there is a program for all state schools in which they can use 4% of tuition from the previous year toward scholarships the following year....so each year in fact for every dollar that is spent on tuition by anyone....4 cents is given away to someone else....isn't life wonderfulxsmiley_wix

I was talking about Davidson taking credit for something they didn't deserve credit.

As far as I know most Furman Students get aid, but also as far as I know Furman just says so sorry to those who can't afford to get inxsmiley_wix

and as I admitted I know nothing about any of this which is why I am so adamant in my opinion