Ivy League in FCS post-season?

[VandalBasher]

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2018/8/7/17298832/ivy-league-fcs-playoffs




Bagnoli: “I couldn’t give you an intelligent reason, to be honest, when you have 33 sports or whatever and every other sport can go ... it doesn’t pass the logic test.”
Reno: “You get into this profession to compete at the highest level and develop young men, and if you’re fortunate enough to have a championship team, you’d love to test your mettle.”
Surace: “It’s not our decision, unfortunately. I would go in front of any jury and argue against the smartest minds arguing against it, and I would win that argument.”
Priore: “It would be great to see how our teams would do on the national scale. All of our programs at some point have gone against the Colonial [Athletic Association] and had some success. We played Lehigh last year, and we beat them.”
Et cetera.

[VandalBasher]

https://www.americaninno.com/boston/ivy-league-football-playoff-ban-harvard-undefeated-but-not-in-fcs-postseason-gif/

The officially listed reason why Harvard won’t go to a playoff this season, and why the ban exists at all, is that Conference administrators “cite concerns about both tradition and academics.”

[DFW HOYA]

What comes first, playoffs or expansion?

[Lion1983]

What comes first, playoffs or expansion?
Playoffs.

[RichH2]

Football coaches and most ADs have been coming in favor of playoffs for years. Nothing will happen until Harvard and Yale agree. Their actual concern noted some years back was the playoffs would diminish their Game.

[VandalBasher]

What comes first, playoffs or expansion?

It is beyond me how Georgetown isn't a powerhouse at the FCS level. Such a gorgeous university in a major city.

[bulldog10jw]

Everything in the article is true and makes sense. The football ban is the height of hypocrisy.

Which means the Presidents will do nothing. I had hoped when Yale appointed a new President in 2013, who was supposed to be more sympathetic to athletics, things would change. No such luck.

[Laker]

https://www.americaninno.com/boston/ivy-league-football-playoff-ban-harvard-undefeated-but-not-in-fcs-postseason-gif/

The officially listed reason why Harvard won’t go to a playoff this season, and why the ban exists at all, is that Conference administrators “cite concerns about both tradition and academics.”

I would think that if any conference could handle the academic side, it would be the Ivy. And as far as tradition, an Ivy school played in the first recognized football game. Their other sports are playoff eligible, it is damn stubbornness not to allow football to do the same.

[Son of Eli]

I agree with Penn’s coach Ray Priore, there is hope:

“My experience with the league is that process is slow,” he says. “It takes time. Freshmen were not eligible to play varsity football — that was an NCAA rule change [in the 1970s] — but we didn’t change over ‘til 1992 or 1993. For the longest time, we used to just have one day of spring football, and now we have 12.
“I do believe change can happen, but I’d be wrong to try to tell you when that would be.”

[bulldog10jw]

I agree with Penn’s coach Ray Priore, there is hope:

“My experience with the league is that process is slow,” he says. “It takes time. Freshmen were not eligible to play varsity football — that was an NCAA rule change [in the 1970s] — but we didn’t change over ‘til 1992 or 1993. For the longest time, we used to just have one day of spring football, and now we have 12.
“I do believe change can happen, but I’d be wrong to try to tell you when that would be.”

I would be happy with an 11th game.

[Son of Eli]

“We haven’t talked about the postseason in any meeting in years,” Harris says. “The presidents haven’t talked about it in quite some time. It’s just not on our agenda for a variety of reasons.”

As Commissioner of the Ivy League Robyn Harris needs to be far less passive on this issue. She has done so much for the league already in terms of increased exposure through TV contracts and a tournament for basketball. She is the necessary catalyst for this change, if she would only step up to the moment. Left to themselves the presidents prefer inertia.

[RichH2]

I would be happy with an 11th game.

Probably have a better chance at that than the playoffs.

[Son of Eli]

I would be happy with an 11th game.


An 11th game against who, Sacred Heart? Only a FCS National Championship can restore Ivy League football’s lost honor.

[bulldog10jw]

An 11th game against who, Sacred Heart? Only a FCS National Championship can restore Ivy League football’s lost honor.

I thought you wanted to play UConn again.

[clenz]

“We haven’t talked about the postseason in any meeting in years,” Harris says. “The presidents haven’t talked about it in quite some time. It’s just not on our agenda for a variety of reasons.”

As Commissioner of the Ivy League Robyn Harris needs to be far less passive on this issue. She has done so much for the league already in terms of increased exposure through TV contracts and a tournament for basketball. She is the necessary catalyst for this change, if she would only step up to the moment. Left to themselves the presidents prefer inertia.

One thing to remember - and it’s something that MVC fans (not MVFC for the record) have had to remind ourselves of some many times the last 7-10 years regarding what our commissioner has done - is that they aren’t able to make any changes without the presidents allowing it. They work for the presidents.




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[bulldog10jw]

An 11th game against who, Sacred Heart? Only a FCS National Championship can restore Ivy League football’s lost honor.

Lost honor?

[Son of Eli]

I thought you wanted to play UConn again.

That would be much different, but I don’t see it happening absent a NCAA rule change on bowl counter status. This article would support such a change. Again, where is Robyn Harris’s leadership? Nevertheless, beating Uconn is nowhere close to winning a national championship.

[Son of Eli]

Lost honor?

Sure. Look at the Ivies leading role in football history detailed in this article compared to the relatively insulated status it’s stuck in now as a result of it’s own policies. Only a national championship could reverse those decades of isolation and gain Ivy League football back a measure of the national esteem it willingly abandoned.

[Son of Eli]

One thing to remember - and it’s something that MVC fans (not MVFC for the record) have had to remind ourselves of some many times the last 7-10 years regarding what our commissioner has done - is that they aren’t able to make any changes without the presidents allowing it. They work for the presidents.




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I agree the Presidents make the decisions, but the commissioner has a role in setting the agenda for discussion. I place the blame on her for an absence of discussion on this issue.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Sure. Look ar the Ivies leading role in football history detailed in this article compared to the relatively insulated status it’s stuck in now as a result it’s own policies. Only a national championship could reverse those decades of isolation and gain Ivy League football back a measure of the national esteem it willingly abandoned.

Which is entirely possible if the IL choose to participate in the playoffs! For those asking who could end a run like NDSU is currently on it's a team from the IL. The Ancient 8 are the ultimate sleeping giant in FCS. They have literally all the resources in the world. The top Ivies already recruit at an extremely high level and pay their coaches low level FBS money.

What's crazy is the amount of publicity an IL program/school would get by making a run to the title. ESPN and the major east coast media outlets would east it up. A semifinal game at Harvard Stadium or Franklin Field would be a helluva lot cooler than Huntsville Texas or Bridgeforth Stadium.

[Son of Eli]

Which is entirely possible if the IL choose to participate in the playoffs! For those asking who could end a run like NDSU is currently on it's a team from the IL. The Ancient 8 are the ultimate sleeping giant in FCS. They have literally all the resources in the world. The top Ivies already recruit at an extremely high level and pay their coaches low level FBS money.

What's crazy is the amount of publicity an IL program/school would get by making a run to the title. ESPN and the major east coast media outlets would east it up. A semifinal game at Harvard Stadium or Franklin Field would be a helluva lot cooler than Huntsville Texas or Bridgeforth Stadium.

Exactly. Yale’s winning a national championship this year in lacrosse was a big deal in Connecticut. A football national championship, even at the FCS level, would make an even bigger splash, both locally and nationally.

And how about the Yale Bowl to host a semifinal playoff game? Yale will soon be installing field turf with heated coils to melt ice and snow, so it will be ready for December football.

[Go...gate]

Which is entirely possible if the IL choose to participate in the playoffs! For those asking who could end a run like NDSU is currently on it's a team from the IL. The Ancient 8 are the ultimate sleeping giant in FCS. They have literally all the resources in the world. The top Ivies already recruit at an extremely high level and pay their coaches low level FBS money.

What's crazy is the amount of publicity an IL program/school would get by making a run to the title. ESPN and the major east coast media outlets would east it up. A semifinal game at Harvard Stadium or Franklin Field would be a helluva lot cooler than Huntsville Texas or Bridgeforth Stadium.

Well said.

[katss07]

I sure hope not. The playoffs already have enough auto bids. I’d have rather have an 8-3 Big Sky or 7-4 MVFC team in the playoffs than an Ivy bid. 10 bids is enough as is and I don’t think there needs to be any more. 10 bids plus the occasional MEAC at large. We don’t need a crappy team from the Ivy.

Just my opinion.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I sure hope not. The playoffs already have enough auto bids. I’d have rather have an 8-3 Big Sky or 7-4 MVFC team in the playoffs than an Ivy bid. 10 bids is enough as is and I don’t think there needs to be any more. 10 bids plus the occasional MEAC at large. We don’t need a crappy team from the Ivy.

Just my opinion.

I nominate this as the weakest troll attempt or dumbest post of 2018!

[katss07]

I nominate this as the weakest troll attempt or dumbest post of 2018!
;)

[SUPharmacist]

What's crazy is the amount of publicity an IL program/school would get by making a run to the title. ESPN and the major east coast media outlets would east it up. A semifinal game at Harvard Stadium or Franklin Field would be a helluva lot cooler than Huntsville Texas or Bridgeforth Stadium.

I agree that it would be a big deal for east coast media outlets. However, why would I think it would be cooler than games elsewhere. I want to see full stadiums with lots of crazy fans. I realize that doesn't happen at a lot of FCS venues, but would the FCS playoffs actually draw in tons of Ivy League fans? If not, I could care less where the games are played.

[Go...gate]

I nominate this as the weakest troll attempt or dumbest post of 2018!

I second the nomination.

[Go...gate]

I agree that it would be a big deal for east coast media outlets. However, why would I think it would be cooler than games elsewhere. I want to see full stadiums with lots of crazy fans. I realize that doesn't happen at a lot of FCS venues, but would the FCS playoffs actually draw in tons of Ivy League fans? If not, I could care less where the games are played.

I believe an Ivy school would draw fine, certainly commensurate with what a first-round game draws at any other site two or three days after Thanksgiving.

[TheKingpin28]

I nominate this as the weakest troll attempt or dumbest post of 2018!Read what LFN or AltTru posts and tell me you can honestly believe this even for a second.

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[Go Green]

What comes first, playoffs or expansion?

The Ivy coaches were asked this question about 10 years ago. While all said they wanted both, most said that if they had a choice, it would be expansion because that would benefit all teams.

Not all coaches are still in the league, and its possible that some coaches have changed their minds given that Ivy teams have gotten a lot better in recent years (as the article indicates).

[Go Green]

https://www.americaninno.com/boston/ivy-league-football-playoff-ban-harvard-undefeated-but-not-in-fcs-postseason-gif/

The officially listed reason why Harvard won’t go to a playoff this season, and why the ban exists at all, is that Conference administrators “cite concerns about both tradition and academics.”

"Tradition" was pretty much the reason why we justified not having a conference basketball tournament for a while.

Thankfully, that went out the door.

As for academics, please. Every other team seems to be handling it just fine.

[DFW HOYA]

Sure. Look at the Ivies leading role in football history detailed in this article compared to the relatively insulated status it’s stuck in now as a result of it’s own policies. Only a national championship could reverse those decades of isolation and gain Ivy League football back a measure of the national esteem it willingly abandoned.

A national championship in a subdivision that is increasingly put on the media's back shelf isn't bringing back Ivy esteem--it will be when the IL plays (and wins) with better schedules. When Princeton opens its season with Duke instead of Butler, when Penn is battling Temple instead of Sacred Heart, people will take notice.

[Son of Eli]

A national championship in a subdivision that is increasingly put on the media's back shelf isn't bringing back Ivy esteem--it will be when the IL plays (and wins) with better schedules. When Princeton opens its season with Duke instead of Butler, when Penn is battling Temple instead of Sacred Heart, people will take notice.

It doesn’t have to be either/or. I want both. But after seeing Yale recently win national championships in men’s hockey and lacrosse I know that no regular season victory can compare.

[Go Green]

A national championship in a subdivision that is increasingly put on the media's back shelf isn't bringing back Ivy esteem--it will be when the IL plays (and wins) with better schedules. When Princeton opens its season with Duke instead of Butler, when Penn is battling Temple instead of Sacred Heart, people will take notice.

What did more for Colgate-- scheduling Syracuse or making the playoff finals?

[OhioHen]

Which is entirely possible if the IL choose to participate in the playoffs! For those asking who could end a run like NDSU is currently on it's a team from the IL. The Ancient 8 are the ultimate sleeping giant in FCS. They have literally all the resources in the world. The top Ivies already recruit at an extremely high level and pay their coaches low level FBS money.

What's crazy is the amount of publicity an IL program/school would get by making a run to the title. ESPN and the major east coast media outlets would east it up. A semifinal game at Harvard Stadium or Franklin Field would be a helluva lot cooler than Huntsville Texas or Bridgeforth Stadium.

And we could stop hearing the whining about how New Hampshire ALWAYS gets to host the Patriot League champion in the first round (or how the Patriot teams ALWAYS have to travel to UNH).

[Son of Eli]

What comes first, playoffs or expansion?


Do do you mean schedule expansion or league expansion? Don’t think we’ll ever see the latter, unless MIT or University of Chicago goes Division I in football.

[Herder]

The IL position is about arrogance mostly in my opinion. Because they would be associating with lesser schools in their opinion, they don’t participate. They don’t want to admit that they would likely not be championship contenders. I do think that participating would lift IL programs if they played the best in the FCS regularly in the playoffs.

The Yale run in hockey also associated them many FCS and DII Level schools that they view as inferior. But football is a more major sport vs hockey.

[DFW HOYA]

Do do you mean schedule expansion or league expansion? Don’t think we’ll ever see the latter, unless MIT or University of Chicago goes Division I in football.

League expansion to 10 in football plus an 11th game - nine games in league, two out of conference.

I've got two candidates.

[uni88]

League expansion to 10 in football plus an 11th game - nine games in league, two out of conference.

I've got two candidates.G'town and?

Have any of the Ivies maintained their religious affiliations?

[clenz]

The Yale run in hockey also associated them many FCS and DII Level schools that they view as inferior. But football is a more major sport vs hockey.

Not entirely true.

The vast majority of hockey teams are from the NE, privates that consider themselves super selective for admission, etc... in many ways, outside of some not having all sports at the D1 level almost all hockey school share a pretty similar profile.

Of the public schools most of them are large, National R1s with world known academics.

Outside of the NCHC and WCHA - and even those two have exceptions that still fit closer to the preferred IL profile - every other school falls in or close to the profile.


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[Go Green]

G'town and?

Have any of the Ivies maintained their religious affiliations?

I can't believe that any Ivy would have a problem being in a league with Georgetown (or Holy Cross or Fordham for that matter).

[Go Green]

The IL position is about arrogance mostly in my opinion. Because they would be associating with lesser schools in their opinion, they don’t participate. They don’t want to admit that they would likely not be championship contenders.

.

The problem with this theory is that the Ivy post-season ban dates back to the days when most Ivy teams were national powers.

The ban has had several justifications over the decades. As I've explained before, none of the justifcations hold water any more.

[DFW HOYA]

Here's a candidate:


Played football since 1882
Same home stadium since 1906
Has won its conference title seven straight years
US News Top 25 school
11.7% admit rate
5,900 undergraduates
AAU Member
Two hours from Penn and Princeton
Most importantly (to some), does not offer scholarships


https://hopkinssports.com/index.aspx?path=football

[Go Green]

“We haven’t talked about the postseason in any meeting in years,” Harris says. “The presidents haven’t talked about it in quite some time. It’s just not on our agenda for a variety of reasons.”

As Commissioner of the Ivy League Robyn Harris needs to be far less passive on this issue. She has done so much for the league already in terms of increased exposure through TV contracts and a tournament for basketball. She is the necessary catalyst for this change, if she would only step up to the moment. Left to themselves the presidents prefer inertia.

Harris doesn't have any power. She follows the lead of the presidents not vice versa.

It's not a coincidence that we got the basketball tournament a few years after Yale got screwed by winning the league co-championship and not getting a post-season invite. When Yale gets pissed, changes happen.

[walliver]

My outsiders opinion is that currently this all comes down to branding. The current administrations don't want the Ivy football branding tarnished by a potential early round loss at an "unworthy" opponent, the fact that this happens in other sports notwithstanding.

Academics is really a non-issue. By December, the players are already in shape and have learned the system and intense preparation in practice is not required. And, to be honest, of the 24 teams involved in the playoffs, one-third are eliminated in November, and two-thirds are gone after the first weekend in December, so only 8 teams have to deal with playing during exam week.

[Laker]

only 8 teams have to deal with playing during exam week.

Excellent point. In most years they wouldn't have to worry about it.

[Go Green]

My outsiders opinion is that currently this all comes down to branding. The current administrations don't want the Ivy football branding tarnished by a potential early round loss at an "unworthy" opponent, the fact that this happens in other sports notwithstanding.

.

The league doesn't have a problem with losing to such opponents during the regular season (no disrespect). I can't imagine losing in the playoffs would cause the Ivy great shame.

[Go...gate]

What did more for Colgate-- scheduling Syracuse or making the playoff finals?

Making the Finals. Sadly, I believe we squandered the benefits under the academic and athletic administrations in place at the time and for several years after.

[Go...gate]

Here's a candidate:


Played football since 1882
Same home stadium since 1906
Has won its conference title seven straight years
US News Top 25 school
11.7% admit rate
5,900 undergraduates
AAU Member
Two hours from Penn and Princeton
Most importantly (to some), does not offer scholarships


https://hopkinssports.com/index.aspx?path=football

It was discussed by the PL about twenty or twenty-five years ago.

[Sader87]

No way the Ivies participate in the FCS playoffs as currently constructed i.e. too big (24 teams), too long (5-6 weeks)...just too unwieldy in general.

I could see them adding an 11th game or restoring FBS games (changing their bowl counter status) if they continue to improve both in recruiting and on the field OOC success.

[VandalBasher]

Is there any reason to have the Ivy League within the construct of FCS or the NCAA, for that matter?

[Go Green]

Is there any reason to have the Ivy League within the construct of FCS or the NCAA, for that matter?

Academic cover?

Just spitballing here...

[dgtw]

nm

[dgtw]

What comes first, playoffs or expansion?

The second coming.


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[bulldog10jw]

A friend asks me every so often when the IL is going to join the 21st century. I always tell him they have to join the 20th first.

[Laker]

This thread reminds me of an SI article that I read years ago about Hobey Baker. Amazing man that died too young- or at least we think so. Nothing that he did after Princeton could match the excitement.

https://www.si.com/college-football/2014/08/20/hobey-baker-si-60-ron-fimrite

[Son of Eli]

To further bolster the case of the resurgence of Ivy League Football; 28 Ivy League players are participating in NFL camps this season, a new record.

http://ivyleague.com/news/2018/8/6/football-27-ivies-participate-in-nfl-training-camps.aspx

[the last indian]

I can't believe that any Ivy would have a problem being in a league with Georgetown (or Holy Cross or Fordham for that matter).
Wouldn't you think that Colgate would be a better choice than HC or Fordham? Better academics than either and a better athletic program. But then again you would have to visit the frozen tundra of Hamilton, New York

[Sader87]

I think the implication of Go Green's post was that the Ancient VIII wouldn't have a problem with a Catholic school in their midst.

[dgtw]

I think the implication of Go Green's post was that the Ancient VIII wouldn't have a problem with a Catholic school in their midst.

I don’t think they are anti-Catholic. Just anti-anybody that isn’t already a member.


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[Go Green]

I think the implication of Go Green's post was that the Ancient VIII wouldn't have a problem with a Catholic school in their midst.

Indeed. And I think that goes for pretty much every conference.

If Notre Dame wants to join someone, the answer will be "welcome!" before the Irish can even finish its opening sentence.

[Laker]

Is there really any serious push for the Ivy to expand? I think that the Ancient Eight like the private club that they have and feel no need to add members.

[Go Green]

And keeping with the spirit of the article of which we are discussing, the Yale guys are all over themselves on the Ivy Sports Board because they just got a running back commit from Bergen Catholic who had several BCS offers.

This type of stuff wasn't happening a generation ago. The Ivy's talent level is much higher now than it was 15-20 years back.

[Go Green]

Is there really any serious push for the Ivy to expand? I think that the Ancient Eight like the private club that they have and feel no need to add members.

There was talk about Army, Navy, and Northwestern back when they had their streak joining the Ivy. Didn't happen.

https://www.nytimes.com/1982/01/10/sports/ivy-league-considers-adding-2-schools.html

Otherwise, its just message board chatter.

Some years back, the NCAA raised its minimum members for a conference autobid for the basketball tournament. The message board hivemind thought that if the NCAA ever raised the minimum members above eight, the Ivy might consider expanding. Again, it didn't happen.

Also some years back, when Columbia was in Streak II, some people wondered what would happen if Columbia just dropped football entirely. Many (myself included) thought that Columbia would be kicked out of the Ivy and replaced with someone else. Again, it didn't happen.

[RichH2]

And keeping with the spirit of the article of which we are discussing, the Yale guys are all over themselves on the Ivy Sports Board because they just got a running back commit from Bergen Catholic who had several BCS offers.

This type of stuff wasn't happening a generation ago. The Ivy's talent level is much higher now than it was 15-20 years back.

A few things have fueled Ivy recruiting. Expansion of student financial aid to meet required endowment spending perhaps the most relevant. Tracking recruiting over the last few decades, the meteoric rise in the number of elite recruits started 6 years ago partially in response to the Patriots starting athletic aid for football.

[bulldog10jw]

Wouldn't you think that Colgate would be a better choice than HC or Fordham? Better academics than either and a better athletic program. But then again you would have to visit the frozen tundra of Hamilton, New York

When the official Ivy League was formed in the early 50's, supposedly the last spot came down to Penn or Colgate. I assume that location was the deciding factor.

[Son of Eli]

William & Mary, as one of the original nine Colonial Colleges along with 7 current Ivy League Schools, makes the most sense for inclusion to the Ivy League. The only Ivy League member not a Colonial College is Cornell. Rutgers is the remaining Colonial College.

A good pairing both regionally and academically with William & Mary could be Georgetown. They would need to upgrade their stadium first.

That would give the Ivy League presence in all of the most major cities in the Northeast Corridor (Washington, Philadelphia, New York and Boston). Such a league would operate in some of the most major metropolitan areas in the nation. That could really be leveraged to market the league, especially if Georgetown would join in basketball as well.

[ccd494]

Why would the Ivy League expand? They can compete for any student in the world (student, not student-athlete) just by saying that they are an Ivy League school. Their competition for students is among themselves. Adding a ninth school just increases the competition. Sure, there are "better" schools than Cornell or Brown or what have you, but they can still look at a kid with lots of options and say "Williams/Johns Hopkins/Virginia/Stanford, that's a great school, but it's not an IVY LEAGUE school..."

And what do they gain from the FCS playoffs? The ability to play more games against South Dakota State, Sam Houston State and Kennesaw State? Those schools aren't what Yale measures itself against, even if they are superior football teams. Maybe eighteen Yale fans care about whether they could win at Wofford in December. And seventeen of them post here.

Frankly, I stand by my prediction that an Ivy League school drops football before the Ivy League plays an FCS playoff game.

[Go Green]

And what do they gain from the FCS playoffs? The ability to play more games against South Dakota State, Sam Houston State and Kennesaw State? Those schools aren't what Yale measures itself against, even if they are superior football teams. Maybe eighteen Yale fans care about whether they could win at Wofford in December. And seventeen of them post here.



That reasoning can be said for pretty much every sport. Some of the schools that Dartmouth has played in the rugby playoffs are institutions I have never even heard of.

[ccd494]

That reasoning can be said for pretty much every sport. Some of the schools that Dartmouth has played in the rugby playoffs are institutions I have never even heard of.

Also in the rugby championships are Air Force, Arizona, Army, BC, Indiana, Maryland, Navy, Notre Dame, Penn State, South Carolina, UCLA, Virginia Tech and Wisconsin.

So, yes, you have to play some Lindenwoods and Mt. St. Mary's, but there are some schools that would be considered academic peers and some that would be considered athletic heavyweights. Who in FCS is either that the Ivies don't already play?

[Go Green]

Also in the rugby championships are Air Force, Arizona, Army, BC, Indiana, Maryland, Navy, Notre Dame, Penn State, South Carolina, UCLA, Virginia Tech and Wisconsin.

So, yes, you have to play some Lindenwoods and Mt. St. Mary's, but there are some schools that would be considered academic peers and some that would be considered athletic heavyweights. Who in FCS is either that the Ivies don't already play?

Don't forget Life University! :)

As for the playoffs, we are already playing some schools during the regular season that (as always, no offense) we probably are not in direct competition with for admissions applicants. It hasn't seemed to affect our standing in the USN&WR rankings. I don't expect our rankings to take a hit if we go to the FCS playoffs either.

[ccd494]

Don't forget Life University! :)

As for the playoffs, we are already playing some schools during the regular season that (as always, no offense) we probably are not in direct competition with for admissions applicants. It hasn't seemed to affect our standing in the USN&WR rankings. I don't expect our rankings to take a hit if we go to the FCS playoffs either.

The issue isn't the rankings- it's the lack of a benefit. No one watches the FCS playoffs, there aren't any schools there that the Ivy measures itself against, it's a lot of travel on short notice with no traveling fans, and it stretches on forever (in theory). At least in hockey or baseball or basketball the Ivy champ can compete against brand name universities.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The issue isn't the rankings- it's the lack of a benefit. No one watches the FCS playoffs, there aren't any schools there that the Ivy measures itself against, it's a lot of travel on short notice with no traveling fans, and it stretches on forever (in theory). At least in hockey or baseball or basketball the Ivy champ can compete against brand name universities.

I don't buy that. Ivy leaguers, especially those within the administrations, have egos. Everyone knows that. But their ego is not that selective when it comes to the sport of football. There's plenty of schools within FCS the Ivy League school's have athletic history with or some other pertinent activity/ideology. The odds of IL/PL playoff matchups would be high. A Dartmouth-UNH playoff game would create a buzz in the Granite State. A Penn/Delaware or Penn/Villanova playoff game would great interest in SEPA. Penn football has always done better than Villanova football. I would be shocked if less than 15k people would show up at Franklin Field for such a game. Hell, until recently Quaker football did better than Temple. We played second fiddle in their stadium for a few years.

Half the teams in hockey are name brands half are not. Qunnipiac, UND, Providence, Union and UM-Duluth a(recent champs) are not.

[ccd494]

I don't buy that. Ivy leaguers, especially those within the administrations, have egos. Everyone knows that. But their ego is not that selective when it comes to the sport of football. There's plenty of schools within FCS the Ivy League school's have athletic history with or some other pertinent activity/ideology. The odds of IL/PL playoff matchups would be high. A Dartmouth-UNH playoff game would create a buzz in the Granite State. A Penn/Delaware or Penn/Villanova playoff game would great interest in SEPA. Penn football has always done better than Villanova football. I would be shocked if less than 15k people would show up at Franklin Field for such a game. Hell, until recently Quaker football did better than Temple. We played second fiddle in their stadium for a few years.

Half the teams in hockey are name brands half are not. Qunnipiac, UND, Providence, Union and UM-Duluth a(recent champs) are not.

Right- but the Ivy League can just call Villanova or UNH or any Patriot League team at any time and schedule a regular season game against them. And, because there was more than one week's notice and the game wasn't in late November or December when the weather sucks in the northeast, there may actually be fans at the game.

[Sader87]

Right- but the Ivy League can just call Villanova or UNH or any Patriot League team at any time and schedule a regular season game against them. And, because there was more than one week's notice and the game wasn't in late November or December when the weather sucks in the northeast, there may actually be fans at the game.

Which is why the Ancient VIII will add an 11th game well before (if evah) participating in the FCS playoffs.

[RichH2]

Which is why the Ancient VIII will add an 11th game well before (if evah) participating in the FCS playoffs.

Agreed. While I think Ivies would benefit and more importantly enjoy the playoffs, I dont see that happening any time soon.An 11th game is IMO inevitable , perhaps in the next 4-5 years. :)

[DFW HOYA]

Half the teams in hockey are name brands half are not. Qunnipiac, UND, Providence, Union and UM-Duluth a(recent champs) are not.

There are no national name brands as far as college hockey goes. The landscape is basically the upper Great Lakes and New England and the Big Ten is the only all-sports conference which sponsors hockey.

Six of eight Ivy schools sponsor hockey, but no IL hockey. (Harvard must not have given its approval...)

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

There are no national name brands as far as college hockey goes. The landscape is basically the upper Great Lakes and New England and the Big Ten is the only all-sports conference which sponsors hockey.

Six of eight Ivy schools sponsor hockey, but no IL hockey. (Harvard must not have given its approval...)

Notre Dame, Penn State, Boston College, Michigan, Minnesota and a few others are "name brand" athletic programs....

I love watching the college games on NBCsports in the winter!

[Laker]

There are no national name brands as far as college hockey goes. The landscape is basically the upper Great Lakes and New England and the Big Ten is the only all-sports conference which sponsors hockey.

Six of eight Ivy schools sponsor hockey, but no IL hockey. (Harvard must not have given its approval...)

Are Columbia and Penn even considering adding hockey?

[dgtw]

Has Ivy hockey ever been proposed?




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[cx500d]

The issue isn't the rankings- it's the lack of a benefit. No one watches the FCS playoffs, there aren't any schools there that the Ivy measures itself against, it's a lot of travel on short notice with no traveling fans, and it stretches on forever (in theory). At least in hockey or baseball or basketball the Ivy champ can compete against brand name universities.

no traveling fans?

[Sader87]

Ivy football fans haven't traveled en masse since at least the 1970s.....

[Son of Eli]

Ivy football fans haven't traveled en masse since at least the 1970s.....


Well, I’ll be traveling with my posse of Yale fans to Worchester to see Yale play Holy Cross at Fitton Field this year.

[bulldog10jw]

Are Columbia and Penn even considering adding hockey?

Penn had men's hockey, but dropped it in the 70's for, I believe, Title IX reasons.

I don't remember Columbia ever having hockey.

[bulldog10jw]

Well, I’ll be traveling with my posse of Yale fans to Worchester to see Yale play Holy Cross at Fitton Field this year.

Have dinner at The Publick House in Sturbridge after the game.

[Go Green]

Penn had men's hockey, but dropped it in the 70's for, I believe, Title IX reasons.




Penn dropped men's hockey because the university almost ran out of money in the 1970s.
Title IX compliance didn't become a real issue until the 1980s.

Money isn't a problem now--and hasn't been in a while. Why Penn hasn't brought hockey back could very well be because of Title IX.

[Laker]

Penn dropped men's hockey because the university almost ran out of money in the 1970s.
Title IX compliance didn't become a real issue until the 1980s.

Money isn't a problem now--and hasn't been in a while. Why Penn hasn't brought hockey back could very well be because of Title IX.


Will Dartmouth College ever change to Dartmouth University? I read an article saying that they could but probably wouldn't because of tradition.

[Go Green]

Will Dartmouth College ever change to Dartmouth University? I read an article saying that they could but probably wouldn't because of tradition.

Nope. In addition to tradition (see Daniel Webster's speech), Dartmouth prides itself on focusing on undergraduate instruction. "Dartmouth University" would detract from that.

But sure- we could obtain "University" status without any trouble if we wanted to do so.

[Model Citizen]

There are no national name brands as far as college hockey goes. The landscape is basically the upper Great Lakes and New England and the Big Ten...

And Colorado (CC, DU).

Wouldn't it be great for Denver to bring back football?

[Laker]

And Colorado (CC, DU).

Wouldn't it be great for Denver to bring back football?

And Vermont. That state could use some testosterone.

[DFW HOYA]

Will Dartmouth College ever change to Dartmouth University? I read an article saying that they could but probably wouldn't because of tradition.

Why would they? It's about as likely as The Citadel becoming Charleston State.

[Son of Eli]

Have dinner at The Publick House in Sturbridge after the game.


Thanks for for the advice. I’ll take you up on it.

[Go...gate]

Penn had men's hockey, but dropped it in the 70's for, I believe, Title IX reasons.

I don't remember Columbia ever having hockey.

Penn dropped Hockey in the mid-1970's. Columbia has never had a varsity hockey program. They have a Club program.

[Anthony215]

I don't see why all the Ivies can't agree on allowing the league champion to participate in the playoffs. Chances are most years its simply a 1 game and exit deal with the occasional year they get a team who wins 1-2 games before falling short against a fully funded program like a JMU, NDSU, SHSU...

[DFW HOYA]

I don't see why all the Ivies can't agree on allowing the league champion to participate in the playoffs. Chances are most years its simply a 1 game and exit deal with the occasional year they get a team who wins 1-2 games before falling short against a fully funded program like a JMU, NDSU, SHSU...

I wonder how much is "the Ivies" and how much it is simply Harvard and Yale, seeing a game at UNH before 3,400 or so visitors on a Thanksgiving Saturday as a diminution of The Game and all it represents. Much like what Lehigh does drives the Patriot, what Harvard does drives the Ivy.

By the way, don't kid yourself--Harvard is more than fully funded...in ways the directional schools will never understand.

[Hammerhead]

This map is outdated since I think someone in Arizona has a hockey team now, but it is amazing how many are in the New England area.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Map_-_College_Hockey_-_all_men%27s_D-I_locations.svg/1024px-Map_-_College_Hockey_-_all_men%27s_D-I_locations.svg.png

[Laker]

This map is outdated since I think someone in Arizona has a hockey team now, but it is amazing how many are in the New England area.

Arizona State does now. Northern Arizona had D1 hockey but dropped it in 1986,

[Go Green]

Chances are most years its simply a 1 game and exit deal with the occasional year they get a team who wins 1-2 games before falling short against a fully funded program like a JMU, NDSU, SHSU...

A key point of the article is that the Ivy talent has greatly increased in recent years (not just in football, but all sports) due to our enhanced financial aid packages. Some of our critics argue (perhaps accurately) that the Ivy is a de facto scholarship league. Dartmouth, for openers, has been getting more guys who turned down scholarships elsewhere than any time since I've been paying attention. I used to really be excited when one of our signees also had an offer from (say) Army. Now, I expect them to have such offers.

Mediocre Ivy teams have beaten UNH, Villanova, and Army in recent years. We will never know until it actually happens, but I would expect the Ivy champion to advance (if not make a real run) most years in the playoffs now. Here's hoping we get a chance to find out soon!

[Son of Eli]

A key point of the article is that the Ivy talent has greatly increased in recent years (not just in football, but all sports) due to our enhanced financial aid packages. Some of our critics argue (perhaps accurately) that the Ivy is a de facto scholarship league. Dartmouth, for openers, has been getting more guys who turned down scholarships elsewhere than any time since I've been paying attention. I used to really be excited when one of our signees also had an offer from (say) Army. Now, I expect them to have such offers.

Mediocre Ivy teams have beaten UNH, Villanova, and Army in recent years. We will never know until it actually happens, but I would expect the Ivy champion to advance (if not make a real run) most years in the playoffs now. Here's hoping we get a chance to find out soon!


Amen brother!

[RichH2]

I wonder how much is "the Ivies" and how much it is simply Harvard and Yale, seeing a game at UNH before 3,400 or so visitors on a Thanksgiving Saturday as a diminution of The Game and all it represents. Much like what Lehigh does drives the Patriot, what Harvard does drives the Ivy.

By the way, don't kid yourself--Harvard is more than fully funded...in ways the directional schools will never understand.
100%

[Thumper 76]

A key point of the article is that the Ivy talent has greatly increased in recent years (not just in football, but all sports) due to our enhanced financial aid packages. Some of our critics argue (perhaps accurately) that the Ivy is a de facto scholarship league. Dartmouth, for openers, has been getting more guys who turned down scholarships elsewhere than any time since I've been paying attention. I used to really be excited when one of our signees also had an offer from (say) Army. Now, I expect them to have such offers.

Mediocre Ivy teams have beaten UNH, Villanova, and Army in recent years. We will never know until it actually happens, but I would expect the Ivy champion to advance (if not make a real run) most years in the playoffs now. Here's hoping we get a chance to find out soon!

This would be fun. I’m all for more good programs in the playoffs, which is also why I wish the SWAC and MEAC would send their champions to the playoffs. I think at team like NCA&T could make a run once and a while.


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[Ivytalk]

The new Harvard president, Bacow, ran Tufts for 10 years and has no obvious athletic interests. He couldn’t possibly do worse than Faust, but he’s no spring chicken. Background is environmental policy. Not holding my breath about the playoffs. This guy seems like a caretaker who was picked for political skills. With Harvard facing financial and legal headwinds, football won’t be the top priority.

[centennial]

And Colorado (CC, DU).

Wouldn't it be great for Denver to bring back football?

I have some contacts at DU. Football is not coming back. At least there isn't any appetite for it. I think the fans would show up.

It is an expensive university, they would need 6-8 million a year at the very least. And then they would be similar to bother Northern Colorado.

[dgtw]

Just an outsider’s opinion, but I don’t see it happening at Denver. It is a pro sports town that loves the Broncos. Combine that with the late season weather and you won’t draw much support.

Are there any major cities that are a hotbed for college football?


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[ccd494]

Denver has the smartest athletic department in the nation. They would be afterthoughts in the national picture in football like they are in basketball. But they are a national power in ice hockey (8 national titles) and skiing (24 national titles). They have a recent men's lacrosse title. The soccer teams go deep into the NCAA tournament. They routinely rate as the top non-football school in the Learfield Cup standings.

They don't throw millions of dollars away on the opportunity to drive to Vermillion, South Dakota and appear on ESPNU in front of 200,000 pairs of eyeballs in late November, and therefore they can afford to be excellent in what they choose to do.

[DFW HOYA]

Denver is the very definition of a local school--two thirds of alumni stay within Colorado, and its programs are all centered with Denver in mind. And with CU lurking around the corner, I don't think the school has the will to do much more than that.

[clenz]

Denver told the MVC to F Off a few years back because Denver wanted in - badly - and the MVC responded by going “sure, as long as you add softball and track/XC for both genders and baseball would be nice”.

If they won’t add 2 sports with a combined 20 scholarships to get an invite to a conference the initially begged to get into they sure as hell aren’t adding football.


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