Announcing (sort of) - the NIT bracket competition

[kardplayer]

I'm up for pulling the brackets together tonight (don't know why I didn't think of it before), if there will be at least 10 people who are willing to play.

Please respond here and if there's interest I'll post a link here tonight when I get home from work - we'll use the same site that we used during the FCS tourny this year...

[Col Hogan]

I'll play since the Minutemen made the NIT (blew their chance at the NCAAs)

[griz37]

Michigan is in the NIT so I will be watching & willing to play. This might be the most interesting NIT field ever.

[lizrdgizrd]

I'm in! Go ASU and Michigan! Let's face each other in the NIT so they'll know who we are on Sep. 1!

[Pard4Life]

No Bucknell? Who dropped the ball on that one... PL co-champ..

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Count me in. What's another bracket, along with my AGS one, CBS Sportsline, ESPN, my women's brackets... xnutsx

[Mountaineer]

Count me in kardplayer! xsmileyclapx xnodx

I find myself strangely uninterested in the NCAA Tourney this year. xsmiley_wix xwhistlex xoopsx

[AppGuy04]

I'm in Kard, I always keep track of the NIT anyways

[Col Hogan]

I'm in! Go ASU and Michigan! Let's face each other in the NIT so they'll know who we are on Sep. 1!

How about UMass and ASU one more time? xhurrayx xhurrayx xhurrayx

[kardplayer]

Here you go...

http://www.bracketmaker.com/tlist.cfm?tid=209915

Note: This is a different site than we've used in the past as the old site isn't running (overrun I'm sure).

Scoring is:

Round 1 - 1 point
Round 2 - 2 points
Round 3 - 4 points
Round 4 (semis) - 8 points
Round 5 (final) - 16 points

[AppGuy04]

This is gonna require a little more research

Looks like 2 of us have completed our predictions

I've got an all mid-major final!

[griz37]

Just filled out my bracket. I have Florida St. beating Syracuse in the final.

[kardplayer]

I have Michigan over Georgia or Clemson.

3 have entered so far - looking for a bunch more

[CharlestonAppFan]

I'm registered but what is the location/league name so I can join our group?

[lizrdgizrd]

I'm in! It's an all Mountaineer final!

[AppGuy04]

Just filled out my bracket. I have Florida St. beating Syracuse in the final.

Probably the two teams with the most talent and athleticism

[kardplayer]

I'm registered but what is the location/league name so I can join our group?

It should go there automatically from the link I put out here previously - http://www.bracketmaker.com/tlist.cfm?tid=209915

If you have to search, try this:
AGS NIT Prediction Competition

[kardplayer]

And for the record - I had Michigan over Clemson (now that I figured out how to look it up)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Done. I have NC State taking the whole thing... against Missouri State :)

[FUwolfpacker]

Done. I too have NC State taking it all. Of course I'm a little biased :)

[kardplayer]

90 minutes until the first tip (and the lockdown of predictions).

Now's the time to signup!

[griz37]

Great game between UMASS & Alabama. Way to go Minutemen.

[Mr. C]

The UMass-Alabama game was as good as anything you will see in the first round of the NCAA tourney. The NC State-Drexel game was good as well and Marist and Oklahoma State are playing a tight one right now (65-61 Marist with less than a minute left).

[Mr. C]

Oklahoma State just hit a three to make it 65-64 with 45 seconds left.

[Mr. C]

Marist hits a pair of FTs with 8.5 seconds left, 67-64. Go Red Foxes. OSU has only TWO home losses in the last 139 home games.

[Mr. C]

Marist FOULS OSU with 3.0 seconds left. Two shots for the Cowboys. Gutsy play.

[Mr. C]

The OSU shooter missed both free throws. In a scramble, the ball goes out for a Cowboy trey at the buzzer, but it misses long and Marist wins its first-ever postseason game, 67-64.

[FUwolfpacker]

Cost me a point in the NIT bracket, but at least NC State will get to host a game now. Which will hopefully help my bracket in the long run:)

Very nice win for Marist.

[Mr. C]

This is probably the BEST NIT bracket since the days of the 16-team tournament, when all of the games were played at Madison Square Garden. Looking forward to an exciting tournament. Hopefully, I'll get to cover an Appalachian State-Clemson or ASU-East Tennessee State game next Monday in person. Still trying to find a place that is showing the ASU-Ole Miss game on CSS. Also have to catch my alma mater, Fresno State, when it plays at Georgia on Wednesday (an hour earlier). There will be a lot of Bulldogs and a lot of Red in Athens on Wednesday night.

[Mr. C]

Cost me a point in the NIT bracket, but at least NC State will get to host a game now. Which will hopefully help my bracket in the long run:)

Very nice win for Marist.
You've got to root for the FCS teams like Marist. Go Red Foxes in Raleigh!

[FUwolfpacker]

You've got to root for the FCS teams like Marist. Go Red Foxes in Raleigh!

I'm ok not cheering for Marist :). I am pulling for all the other FCS schools though(unless they're playing NC State). Go Pack! Maybe one day Furman will have a basketball team I can cheer for:(

[Mr. C]

Furman has a proud tradition in basketball. It's just been a few years since Joe Williams was the coach.

[AppGuy04]

Cost me a point in the NIT bracket, but at least NC State will get to host a game now. Which will hopefully help my bracket in the long run:)

Very nice win for Marist.

Sadly, I don't think the fans will show up!

don't forget, the RBC is hosting women's NCAA games this week

[FUwolfpacker]

Sadly, I don't think the fans will show up!

don't forget, the RBC is hosting women's NCAA games this week

And gymnastics is in Reynolds (although it will probably get moved). As far as fans showing up....I don't know. We'll just have to see. My parents live about 3:30 hours away and they're planning on going. It's not as much about having a lot of fans there (to me) as it is our players finally get a break and not having to travel somewhere. 5 games in 6 nights (none anywhere near Raleigh) had to kill them, and I'm sure knowing they won't have to leave the Raleigh area come friday has got to be a relief.



Furman has a proud tradition in basketball. It's just been a few years since Joe Williams was the coach.

I know Furman has a nice basketball history, but I'm only 22 and didn't follow Furman until I went to college there, so I'm only going off of 5 years of experience here. Hasn't really been a team in that time that got me excited about FU bball:) . I still went to the games thoughxnodx .

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Way to go Marist! xthumbsupx

Future Patriot League member? xeyebrowx

I thought Michigan would be flat against Utah State - my big "dud" pick from last night.

[griz37]

Way to go Marist! xthumbsupx

Future Patriot League member? xeyebrowx

I thought Michigan would be flat against Utah State - my big "dud" pick from last night.

For some reason under Tommy Amaker Michigan always gets up for the NIT. If only the could play that way during the regular season, this whole NIT thing could be avoided. xsmhx

[Peems]

Well Drexel sure proved they belonged in the NCAA tourney...

[AppGuy04]

Well Drexel sure proved they belonged in the NCAA tourney...

My first thought after that game

BTW, NC State will be hosting Marist in the 2nd round at Reynolds Coliseum, probably one of the toughest places to play in the history of college basketball
http://www.gopack.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=41959&SPID=3731&DB_OEM_ID=9200&ATCLID=826788

[griz37]

Well Drexel sure proved they belonged in the NCAA tourney...

xconfusedx Imagine thinking that you will be marrying a Victoria Secret model & then finding out that you are actually getting hitched to Rosie O'Donnell. How excited are you going to be? I don't think winning or losing the NIT has anything to do w/a teams NCAA worthiness.

[lizrdgizrd]

xconfusedx Imagine thinking that you will be marrying a Victoria Secret model & then finding out that you are actually getting hitched to Rosie O'Donnell. How excited are you going to be? I don't think winning or losing the NIT has anything to do w/a teams NCAA worthiness.
There are plenty of other teams that don't get to play in a post-season tournament. If they're such whiney little *****s that they don't bother getting pissed off and try to show the world they deserved to be in the big dance by winning the NIT why should they even bother taking a spot in the NIT either?

A game is a game. If you're a real player you'll play to win every one of them. If they played their best and lost in the NIT, then why should they have been in the NCAA Tournament?

[griz37]

There are plenty of other teams that don't get to play in a post-season tournament. If they're such whiney little *****s that they don't bother getting pissed off and try to show the world they deserved to be in the big dance by winning the NIT why should they even bother taking a spot in the NIT either?

Does winning the NIT really prove that you belonged in the tournament. South Carolina won it 2 years in a row, but they sure as hell didn't belong in the 65 team field.

[lizrdgizrd]

Does winning the NIT really prove that you belonged in the tournament. South Carolina won it 2 years in a row, but they sure as hell didn't belong in the 65 team field.
There are plenty of teams that belong in the field that don't make it because of autobids. I'm beginning to think that there shouldn't be autobids for any sports. The best of the best and none of the rest. xnodx

[kardplayer]

There is a theory out there that disappointed teams rarely perform up to their usual standard when playing a "lesser" game.

I've done the analysis for playing non-BCS Bowl games when they think they should be in a BCS game and playing in a regular BCS game when they should be in the "National Championship" game. The results were that more often than not, the team that gets "snubbed" loses or at least doesn't win as convincingly as those that put their money behind them would expect.

This year's example is Michigan getting snubbed by the Nat'l Championship and losing by 14 to USC.

BTW, this doesn't hold when a team feels like they might have a shot at a shared NC if they win convincingly enough...

[kardplayer]

Watch Nevada (low bid) and Notre Dame (low bid) to see how they perform against Creighton and Winthrop. Odds are, at least 1 of them will go home in round 1.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Watch Nevada (low bid) and Notre Dame (low bid) to see how they perform against Creighton and Winthrop. Odds are, at least 1 of them will go home in round 1.

That's what my bracket has.

[lizrdgizrd]

Watch Nevada (low bid) and Notre Dame (low bid) to see how they perform against Creighton and Winthrop. Odds are, at least 1 of them will go home in round 1.
I've got Winthrop over ND. xthumbsupx

[Peems]

I hate ND, i would pick the 16th seed even if notre dame were a 1

[AppGuy04]

E. Tennessee St. 25 32 57 Final

Clemson 29 35 64

[AppGuy04]

Fresno St. 32 46 78 Final

Georgia 40 48 88

[AppGuy04]

South Alabama 39 34 73 Final

Syracuse 38 41 79

[AppGuy04]

Appalachian St. 35 24 59 Final

Mississippi 38 35 73

[Mountaineer]

Very bizarre, that game. :( One point game with 9 minutes left and suddenly it opens up to a 16 point Ole Miss lead. xoopsx xthumbsdownx

Ah well - was still a heck of season put on by the Apps this year. xbowx xhurrayx

[AppGuy04]

Vermont 26 31 57 Final

Kansas St. 28 31 59

[FUwolfpacker]

Dang it ASU. I had you guys beating Clemson in the next round. You're killing my bracket! :)

Seriously though, congrats on a very good season. You guys had a very good bball team.

[dbackjon]

Final
Hofstra 71
DePaul 83

[dbackjon]

Final
Bradley 90
Providence 78

[AppGuy04]

Florida State crushed Michigan tonight

[kardplayer]

Florida State crushed Michigan tonight

Well that will do it for me then...

[lizrdgizrd]

Well, I'm number one. At least until the next round of games.

[AppGuy04]

Well that will do it for me then...

Well, I had Drexel vs ASU for the Championshipxmadx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I had Missouri State in the finals. There's no way I can win - if NC State wins the whole thing, I'll be in second maybe.

[Mr. C]

There are plenty of teams that belong in the field that don't make it because of autobids. I'm beginning to think that there shouldn't be autobids for any sports. The best of the best and none of the rest. xnodx
And if you did that, even more teams from the big conferences would get it at the expense of the deserving mid-majors. Selection in basketball is far more politcal than any other sport, because of the huge amount of money involved. I would be more in favor of letting ONLY regular season conference winner and tournament winners into the field. If you win the regular season, you qualify for the tournament. The conference tournaments could be elimination tournaments for the main NCAA tourney. It would make them take on an entirely different intensity. The ACC tourney, for example, used to be a war before the advent of at-large bids. It was the only way to get into the NCAA tournament and teams played their hearts out. The 1973 NC State-Maryland double OT ACC tournament final was one of the greatest games in the history of college basketball (if not the best). Do you think it would have been as good, if it had only been for the right to be a No. 1 seed, instead of a No. 2 seed? The Southern Conference (the inventer of the conference tournament) was the same way and still is today (the SoCon has NEVER gotten an at-large bid). Why do we need teams playing in the NCAAs that can't finish in the top half of their conference in the regular season, or even manage a winning record in conference. If you stay with the same format, I would eliminate ALL teams from at-large consideration if they didn't finish with a winning record in their league and didn't finish in the top half of their league standings.

[lizrdgizrd]

And if you did that, even more teams from the big conferences would get it at the expense of the deserving mid-majors. Selection in basketball is far more politcal than any other sport, because of the huge amount of money involved. I would be more in favor of letting ONLY regular season conference winner and tournament winners into the field. If you win the regular season, you qualify for the tournament. The conference tournaments could be elimination tournaments for the main NCAA tourney. It would make them take on an entirely different intensity. The ACC tourney, for example, used to be a war before the advent of at-large bids. It was the only way to get into the NCAA tournament and teams played their hearts out. The 1973 NC State-Maryland double OT ACC tournament final was one of the greatest games in the history of college basketball (if not the best). Do you think it would have been as good, if it had only been for the right to be a No. 1 seed, instead of a No. 2 seed? The Southern Conference (the inventer of the conference tournament) was the same way and still is today (the SoCon has NEVER gotten an at-large bid). Why do we need teams playing in the NCAAs that can't finish in the top half of their conference in the regular season, or even manage a winning record in conference. If you stay with the same format, I would eliminate ALL teams from at-large consideration if they didn't finish with a winning record in their league and didn't finish in the top half of their league standings.
I was thinking some more about this and thought of basically the same idea you did. The regular season champ goes to the dance. The winner of the tournament gets a spot. Any open spots go to the looser of the conference tournament that had the regular season winner also win the tournament. I guess we'd have to have 4 play-in games though. xeyebrowx

[kardplayer]

Watch Nevada (low bid) and Notre Dame (low bid) to see how they perform against Creighton and Winthrop. Odds are, at least 1 of them will go home in round 1.

Notre Dame - check
Nevada - sweating up 1 with 7:49 to go

[AppGuy04]

The Wolfpack looking good again. Up 10 now with 10 minutes left. Been up double digits most of the game

[BigApp]

I agree C. The regular season champ should get an NCAA autobid, not the tourney champ.

It's sad that a team can go 16-0 in a conference and not get rewarded because they lost in a tourney championship game to a team that went 0-16.

[Mr. C]

I would give both regular season and tourney champs bids (have the regular-season champs earn a week off and not have to compete for the conference tournament title). There are 31 auto bids. That would give you 62 teams. Add one more conference and you have 64 teams. Then you basically have ALL teams competing for an NCAA championship in tournament format. One loss and you are done. Independents could either be grafted into one of the conference tournaments, or they could join a conference and get in that way. I think it would make the conference tournaments as compelling as the NCAA tournament is now. It would also make the regular season that more important. And it would mean there would be NO reason for big conferences to avoid playing mid-majors in the non-conference season, since season records wouldn't get you in, or out of the NCAA tournament.

[kardplayer]

I would give both regular season and tourney champs bids (have the regular-season champs earn a week off and not have to compete for the conference tournament title). There are 31 auto bids. That would give you 62 teams. Add one more conference and you have 64 teams. Then you basically have ALL teams competing for an NCAA championship in tournament format. One loss and you are done. Independents could either be grafted into one of the conference tournaments, or they could join a conference and get in that way. I think it would make the conference tournaments as compelling as the NCAA tournament is now. It would also make the regular season that more important. And it would mean there would be NO reason for big conferences to avoid playing mid-majors in the non-conference season, since season records wouldn't get you in, or out of the NCAA tournament.

Two problems with that -

1. Out of conference games would be absolutely meaningless at all levels. That's a little too extreme.
2. There are some conferences that just don't have two good teams. There's no reason to clutter up the field with tons of teams who can't win.

That said, I do have a solution.

First, I believe there were less first round upsets in the first round because they took less mid-majors. The Power Conference teams that got in off the bubble (e.g. Stanford) have already proven throughout the regular season that they couldn't beat the best teams. The mid-major teams that are left in the bubble are largely not well known - they haven't played enough good teams to know whether they are good or not. As a result, they often get seeds that are lower than what they really deserve, and pull off "upsets" when in fact they may actually have been favored if they were better understood.

My point: the 11-12 seeded teams from power conferences are less likely to win than their mid-major counterparts (Stanford lost by 20, Arkansas lost by 17, Illinois played a tough game and lost by 2 - so 2 out of 3 were uncompetitive). Note that #11 Winthrop and #11 VCU both beat power conference teams while #12 LB State and #11 GW were uncompetitive - so 2 wins, 2 crushing defeats, but its those 2 wins that make the tourny interesting.

My suggestion: force power conference teams that want at large bids to play at least one game in a mid-major gym. That will allow the mid-majors to be assessed, at least better than they are today. Its completely inequitable that power teams can basically play all home games or neutral site games. Of course the mid-majors have less quality wins - they have less opportunities.

[kardplayer]

The NIT final four is set - all the one seeds advanced (boring) - Air Force, Clemson, Mississippi State, and West Virginia.

Since everyone's champ has been eliminated, the semis will determine the champ.

Here are our scenarios:
1. If Clemson advances, Garrett Perdick is our champion
2. If Clemson loses and West Virginia advances, lizrdgird advances
3. If Clemson and WV both lose, Griz37 is our champ

[Mr. C]

It's really hard to win on someone's home court, although Clemson would have lost in the first round to East Tennessee State, if the Bucs had ANYONE who could shoot. Surprised the Tigers are going to Madison Square Garden.

[Mr. C]

Two problems with that -

1. Out of conference games would be absolutely meaningless at all levels. That's a little too extreme.
2. There are some conferences that just don't have two good teams. There's no reason to clutter up the field with tons of teams who can't win.

That said, I do have a solution.

First, I believe there were less first round upsets in the first round because they took less mid-majors. The Power Conference teams that got in off the bubble (e.g. Stanford) have already proven throughout the regular season that they couldn't beat the best teams. The mid-major teams that are left in the bubble are largely not well known - they haven't played enough good teams to know whether they are good or not. As a result, they often get seeds that are lower than what they really deserve, and pull off "upsets" when in fact they may actually have been favored if they were better understood.

My point: the 11-12 seeded teams from power conferences are less likely to win than their mid-major counterparts (Stanford lost by 20, Arkansas lost by 17, Illinois played a tough game and lost by 2 - so 2 out of 3 were uncompetitive). Note that #11 Winthrop and #11 VCU both beat power conference teams while #12 LB State and #11 GW were uncompetitive - so 2 wins, 2 crushing defeats, but its those 2 wins that make the tourny interesting.

My suggestion: force power conference teams that want at large bids to play at least one game in a mid-major gym. That will allow the mid-majors to be assessed, at least better than they are today. Its completely inequitable that power teams can basically play all home games or neutral site games. Of course the mid-majors have less quality wins - they have less opportunities.
Actually, without the pressure to win a set number of games, non-conference games might be enhanced. You would be trying to schedule games to prepare your team for March, instead of pad your record. There wouldn't be any reason not to see teams scheduling more games with those tough, little guys. You might actually see Jim Boeheim take his team out of New York state in December.

The point in putting conference champs and tourney champs in would be to make both the regular season and conference tournaments TOTALLY count for something. Every tournament game would be an elimination game, kind of like the Indiana State basketball tournament.

[kardplayer]

Actually, without the pressure to win a set number of games, non-conference games might be enhanced. You would be trying to schedule games to prepare your team for March, instead of pad your record. There wouldn't be any reason not to see teams scheduling more games with those tough, little guys. You might actually see Jim Boeheim take his team out of New York state in December.

The point in putting conference champs and tourney champs in would be to make both the regular season and conference tournaments TOTALLY count for something. Every tournament game would be an elimination game, kind of like the Indiana State basketball tournament.

The reality is, there's no way they are going to reduce the field at this point. There's too much money at stake, and there's no way the big conferences are going to give more of it to the little guys by taking less spots in the field.

You may be right about taking some of the pressure off and loosening up the schedule, but I still don't see most of the big guys playing at smaller schools until someone makes them. For the big conference guys, they are already in this situation generally. Some schedule a handful of losable games OOC, they just schedule them against each other:

(notable teams OOC vs. big conference teams, games without "at" may be neutral sites, but I didn't check)
Florida OOC - Kansas, at Florida St., Providence, Ohio State
Duke OOC - Marquette, Indiana, Georgetown, Gonzaga
USC OOC - South Carolina, at Kansas, Kansas State
Ohio State OOC - at UNC, Iowa St, at Florida

[Mr. C]

I'm not saying reduce the field. I'm talking about opening it up to EVERYBODY through a system of conference tournament and then NCAA games.

[kardplayer]

I'm not saying reduce the field. I'm talking about opening it up to EVERYBODY through a system of conference tournament and then NCAA games.

Effectively you are though, in the eyes of the big dogs, if I understand the concept correctly.

Without arguing over what makes a mid-major, and without looking up the data, there are 15-20 conferences that get only 1 team in the final 65 each year. Those conferences would now get 2.

Perhaps the small conferences would agree to keep the money split as it is today, in exchange for the opportunity, and then maybe there would be interest from the big dogs.

As I think and type, my question is - who would pay for the round of 64 and the round of 32?

I think the conference tournament packages would get more lucrative as more would be at stake (good for the big dogs)
I think the Sweet 16 would look pretty much the same as it does now - there's 2 conferences with 3 teams this year, so there would be some different mix
The first round would be worse, as there would be a lot of relatively bad teams in the tourny (the #2 team in a traditionally 1 bid conference) and a lot more 1 vs. 16 type blowouts. (I know there have been close games, but they are few and far between)
The second round would look like the first round does today.So the question is - why is this change better for crowning a champ, and why is it better for fans?

I'd rather see the good, small teams have a chance to prove their worth against the big dogs on their home court or at neutral sites so they can at least be more failry evaluated for at larges and more so to have a better chance to actually win (as I'm a firm believer in there's no such thing as a quality loss).