App. St. Pro Day

[appfan2008]

When is it?

[smallcollegefbfan]

There are two pro days. One on the 20th and one on April 5th.

[Appguy]

I watched the pro day today.More guys worked out than I expected
From what I saw Murrell, Mayfield, Orlebar, Byrom, Wiggins, Bettis, Monte Smith, and Robertson.
I think the Eagles and Redskins were there, not sure who the other scouts were with.
Murrell looked fast. Mayfield looked slow and sloppy on the cones
Monte Smith looked good overall.
also Wiggins is faster than I thought previously.

[appfan2008]

will any of them get drafted does anyone think?

and more specifically what about monte

[majorbta]

Here is the article on goasu

http://goasu.com/article/10591/?fSession=46d7c4806158b181ff85c7dbdb9779fee852a09f

[appfan2008]

those numbers including the 40 dont seem that impressive... IMO

[Appguy]

4.59 for Smith is good but not if he is projected to DB. wiggins is a little short.
I could see Murrell get drafted if his 40 is in the 4.6 range

[seantaylor]

I think John Mohring will run in the 4.4's on GSU's pro day. I figured Wiggins to be faster than that.

[smallcollegefbfan]

4.59 for Smith is good but not if he is projected to DB. wiggins is a little short.
I could see Murrell get drafted if his 40 is in the 4.6 range

Murrell ran a 4.8 according to a website I saw. I don't think he gets drafted.

People would be surprised how slow I-AA players are compared to how they look on the field. The reason I-A teams win most of the time is speed and depth. There are really a lot less 4.4 guys in I-AA than people expect.

[smallcollegefbfan]

I think John Mohring will run in the 4.4's on GSU's pro day. I figured Wiggins to be faster than that.

I would expect mid-high 4.5 on him. He ran a 4.61 two years ago I believe. I am not sure if he got .14 faster over that time. If he does run a 4.4 then he should get a shot for sure.

[seantaylor]

He ran a 4.56 last year. He has been working with a speed trainer, so we'll see.

[smallcollegefbfan]

He ran a 4.56 last year. He has been working with a speed trainer, so we'll see.

He seems to be a 4.4 type on the field but many players run slower than expected. I would guess 4.53/4.60 range. I hope he runs faster than that though. He ran a 4.59/4.61 as a junior, which is good. Most players who are said to be a 4.5 run a 4.6 or 4.7. He is certainly faster than most FCS players.

[Mr. C]

Murrell ran a 4.8 according to a website I saw. I don't think he gets drafted.

People would be surprised how slow I-AA players are compared to how they look on the field. The reason I-A teams win most of the time is speed and depth. There are really a lot less 4.4 guys in I-AA than people expect.
There are a lot less 4.4 guys in FBS than people realize, too. Some of the timing stuff you read about is just ridiculous.

[Mountaineer#96]

Murrell ran a 4.8 according to a website I saw. I don't think he gets drafted.

People would be surprised how slow I-AA players are compared to how they look on the field. The reason I-A teams win most of the time is speed and depth. There are really a lot less 4.4 guys in I-AA than people expect.

Psssssshh Murrell, 4.8 .........that is bogus until you can cite a source. He will do no worse than a 4.6 everytime.

[seantaylor]

There are a lot less 4.4 guys in FBS than people realize, too. Some of the timing stuff you read about is just ridiculous.

I can guarentee you that at least 4 GSU guys will run sub 4.4's at our Pro Day. Lynon Jefferson, Jayson Foster, Lionel McGriff, and Marquice Maynard. Brandon Jackson, Chris Covington, Ronnie Wiggins, Lamar Lewis and a few others will all run sub 4.5's. We haven't lost any speed with Loser as coach.

[UNH 40]

Psssssshh Murrell, 4.8 .........that is bogus until you can cite a source. He will do no worse than a 4.6 everytime.


Here is your source:

http://nfl.com/draft/analysis/individual_workouts

Murrell (6-1 5/8, 245 pounds) ran his 40s in 4.86 and 4.91. He also had a 30 ½-inch vertical jump, 9-foot-10 long jump, 4.30 short shuttle, 7.21 three-cone drill and 18 bench presses.

With those #'s he will not be looked at as fast enough, explosive enough, or strong enough. It is to bad because he is a great player and these numbers are in no way a reflection on how he plays on the field.

[smallcollegefbfan]

Psssssshh Murrell, 4.8 .........that is bogus until you can cite a source. He will do no worse than a 4.6 everytime.

Murrell is more quick than fast. He does not have long speed, he is more quick and fast from 10-20 yards than he is for 40 yards. He ran a 4.88/4.92 last spring for scouts and ran a 4.8 according to nfl.com this year. He has never ran faster than a 4.8 for NFL scouts. I tend to believe those times more than the ones people around ASU would say. The times don't lie when scouts time them.

[smallcollegefbfan]

Here is your source:

http://nfl.com/draft/analysis/individual_workouts

Murrell (6-1 5/8, 245 pounds) ran his 40s in 4.86 and 4.91. He also had a 30 ½-inch vertical jump, 9-foot-10 long jump, 4.30 short shuttle, 7.21 three-cone drill and 18 bench presses.

With those #'s he will not be looked at as fast enough, explosive enough, or strong enough. It is to bad because he is a great player and these numbers are in no way a reflection on how he plays on the field.

He will not get drafted with those numbers. He is too small for DE and too slow to play OLB. He will have to prove himself as a FA.

[UNH 40]

He will not get drafted with those numbers. He is too small for DE and too slow to play OLB. He will have to prove himself as a FA.

Agreed. He will have to make his mark as a special teams player.

[UNH 40]

He ran a 4.56 last year. He has been working with a speed trainer, so we'll see.


Here are his pro day #'s.

Mohring (5-11 7/8, 232 pounds) ran his 40s in 4.58 and 4.63. He also had a 34-inch vertical jump, 9-foot-5 long jump, 4.29 short shuttle, 6.95 three-cone drill and 23 bench presses.

[smallcollegefbfan]

Here are his pro day #'s.

Mohring (5-11 7/8, 232 pounds) ran his 40s in 4.58 and 4.63. He also had a 34-inch vertical jump, 9-foot-5 long jump, 4.29 short shuttle, 6.95 three-cone drill and 23 bench presses.

Not far from the 4.53/4.60 range I was thinking. Like I said, players are not nearly as fast as most say they are.

[smallcollegefbfan]

I can guarentee you that at least 4 GSU guys will run sub 4.4's at our Pro Day. Lynon Jefferson, Jayson Foster, Lionel McGriff, and Marquice Maynard. Brandon Jackson, Chris Covington, Ronnie Wiggins, Lamar Lewis and a few others will all run sub 4.5's. We haven't lost any speed with Loser as coach.

After seeing what Mohring actually ran and seeing what the school had put out that he runs I would be that Foster is more like a low 4.4 guy and the rest are high 4.4/low 4.5 guys. Jackson is fast, I could see him being a 4.47-4.54 type.

Lewis is probably a 4.56/4.63 type.

[seantaylor]

After seeing what Mohring actually ran and seeing what the school had put out that he runs I would be that Foster is more like a low 4.4 guy and the rest are high 4.4/low 4.5 guys. Jackson is fast, I could see him being a 4.47-4.54 type.

Lewis is probably a 4.56/4.63 type.

Is that this years times? As far as I know, GSU's pro day hasn't happened yet.

[seantaylor]

Looking at his weight, he has put on almost 20 pounds since this season. He could be a John Lynch type player.

[seantaylor]

After seeing what Mohring actually ran and seeing what the school had put out that he runs I would be that Foster is more like a low 4.4 guy and the rest are high 4.4/low 4.5 guys. Jackson is fast, I could see him being a 4.47-4.54 type.

Lewis is probably a 4.56/4.63 type.

I don't know. GSU reported his speed at 4.56 when he was 212 lbs. He has since gained 20 lbs and not really lost anything. Foster is a sub 4.4 guy easily.

[B&G]

When nfl.com says that the pro day was held in rough conditions, I wonder how much time that generally adds to a 40 yard dash. Even if it is a tenth of a second it should help Smith and, to a lesser extent, Murrell.

[appfan2008]

When nfl.com says that the pro day was held in rough conditions, I wonder how much time that generally adds to a 40 yard dash. Even if it is a tenth of a second it should help Smith and, to a lesser extent, Murrell.
what is there definition of rough conditions?

what were the conditions like that day anyway???

[smallcollegefbfan]

Is that this years times? As far as I know, GSU's pro day hasn't happened yet.

That is this year's times. The pro day happened fairly recently.

Like I said, most people who say they run a 4.4 by the coaches standards are going to run a 4.5 or slower. People throw out 4.4 speed about a player quite often and you would be surprised at how many of those players are not that fast at all.

[smallcollegefbfan]

When nfl.com says that the pro day was held in rough conditions, I wonder how much time that generally adds to a 40 yard dash. Even if it is a tenth of a second it should help Smith and, to a lesser extent, Murrell.

It could add to it but he is still not considered as fast as fans would say he is.

[appfan2008]

We can hope

[BEAR]

Something I have never understood is 4.4 speed without helmets or padding or anything else means????...nothing in my book. There are players at the D2 level that can run better quicker routes all padded up than some of these so called speed demons at FBS or FCS. Not saying they are better players, just sometimes a speedster tends to be a step slow when it comes to limiting equipment. Seen it. Plus those stopwatches and those timers can be triggered a bit too slow. Besides, who really cares if a guy can run 1/10 of a second faster than another....c'mon it's 1/10 of a second...bet that 4.4 guy would have trouble running in New England or in the humid south....timing players to the exact fraction is a joke. xcoffeex

[appfan2008]

Something I have never understood is 4.4 speed without helmets or padding or anything else means????...nothing in my book. There are players at the D2 level that can run better quicker routes all padded up than some of these so called speed demons at FBS or FCS. Not saying they are better players, just sometimes a speedster tends to be a step slow when it comes to limiting equipment. Seen it. Plus those stopwatches and those timers can be triggered a bit too slow. Besides, who really cares if a guy can run 1/10 of a second faster than another....c'mon it's 1/10 of a second...bet that 4.4 guy would have trouble running in New England or in the humid south....timing players to the exact fraction is a joke. xcoffeex
good point also...
there is a big difference between speed and quickness

[UNH 40]

SI.com has Murrell as one of its fallers along with UNH wide reciever David Ball, in its recent edition of risers and fallers.

Here is what scouts told SI on Murrell's pro day performance.

Marques Murrell/LB/Appalachian State: A college defensive end that projects to linebacker at the next level, Murrell looked un-athletic in front of scouts. Weighing 245-pounds, his marks included a slow 4.9, a poor vertical jump of barely 30 inches and just 18 reps on the bench.

[Peems]

SI.com has Murrell as one of its fallers along with UNH wide reciever David Ball, in its recent edition of risers and fallers.

Here is what scouts told SI on Murrell's pro day performance.

Marques Murrell/LB/Appalachian State: A college defensive end that projects to linebacker at the next level, Murrell looked un-athletic in front of scouts. Weighing 245-pounds, his marks included a slow 4.9, a poor vertical jump of barely 30 inches and just 18 reps on the bench.

what did they say about Ball?

[Peems]

Never mind. here is the link for those interested:http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/nfl/03/23/pauline.risers.sliders/1.html

[appfan2008]

that is too bad about murrell i was hoping he would get drafted

[Appguy]

The conditions werent "rough" to me. it was sunny, chilly (about 50 degrees) and a little windy

[smallcollegefbfan]

that is too bad about murrell i was hoping he would get drafted

He had no chance of getting drafted unless he ran a 4.6 or better.

[pete4256]

The times don't lie when scouts time them.

I dunno. A couple of years ago Chaz Williams was timed by pro scouts at 4.27 at the GSU pro day. That couldn't have been right.

[smallcollegefbfan]

I dunno. A couple of years ago Chaz Williams was timed by pro scouts at 4.27 at the GSU pro day. That couldn't have been right.

I believe he was a high 4.2 guy. The actual time I saw that was supposed to be official was 4.31 but you never know when it comes to clocks. My point was that so many say they are a 4.4 guy but if you can't ever hit 4.4 for NFL scouts then your previous times dont matter. It is funny how times are slower when someone with no bias to the school is timing them.

[appfan2008]

what is the world record for the 40 anyway... cuz i never hear 4.2 like that

[seantaylor]

Chaz Williams was one of the fastest players to ever come out of GSU, and that says something. Had he been a running back for us, he would be playing a lot in the NFL.

[Mr. C]

You hit something on the head. I've always felt A LOT of football times were suspect, because if these guys were that fast, they would be running track instead of playing football. There is a lot of money to won by being one of the top sprinters. You wonder what the 40 times of guys like Bob Hayes, Henry Carr, Tommie Smith, Jim Hines, Renaldo Nehemiah, all gold medalists who played pro football, were. The only guy I've seen in person that I believed when I heard times like 4.2 was Randy Moss. Hayes and Hines were world record holders in the 100. Smith held every record from 100 to 400 at one point. Larry Jones is another one I would like to know what his time was. Jones was an NCAA 400 champion, who later was an All-Pro kick returner with the Washington Redskins.

[winstoneagle]

You will know a 4.2 when you see it up close. I saw a kid in HS that was timed at the Scout combine, he ran 4.28. The speed he had was incredible, and this was in an actual game. App. recruited him hard, but he chose to go to FAMU (I dont know what happened after that). He played on the same HS team with Calvin Johnson.

[UNH 40]

Randall Williams a 6'4" 225 pound Tight End for the Raiders, was used sparingly at UNH but ran like a 4.14 40 for NFL scouts at UNH's proday in 2001. He was picked up by the Jaguars for a season then while working out for the Cowboys I heard that he ran a 4.09 40 He went on to play with the cowboys for three years. He set an NFL record for the fastest touchdown in the history of the NFL when he recovered an onsides kick on the opening kickoff by the eagles and returned it for a touchdown giving the Cowdoys the lead in 14:54 left in the first quarter. He now has played for the Raiders for two full seasons. 4.09 is the fastest I have heard of, especially for a guy 6'4" 225.

[appfan2008]

4.09 honestly is hard to believe but that is just me

[Mr. C]

I'm looking around the net, trying to find some track and field records. What I have so far is that the American record for the 50-meter dash is held by Maurice Greene at 5.56 seconds (Greene also shares the World Record with Donovan Bailey). If we have any track people around here, perhaps they can convert that to what Greene's 40-yard dash time would have been. But if Greene is running 50 meters in the 5.5 to 5.6 range, it seems to reason that some of these football times are HIGHLY quesitionable. Unless you are using Accu-Track, or something like it, to do times, you are going to have innaccuracies. I think that the NFL combine uses something like Accu-Track, but I'm not sure how that the pro days at various places conduct their timing. Track people I've talked to through the years (and I've covered a lot of track and field at the highest U.S. levels) have always laughed at the times they here these football players being credited for, quite honestly.

Hey UNH 40, you want to give us your experience when you were timed and when your brother went through the process?

[appfan2008]

that is what i figured Mr. C... I assume that green may have still been speeding up in those last ten meters but according to my calculations his time would translate to 4.448 seconds in the 40... and if that is correct... then these other times are absurd

[smallcollegefbfan]

Just remember that half of the 4.3 and 4.4 40 times you hear are not legit. Mr. C is right and I think he is agreeing with me when I said earlier that most are not what they say they are.

[Mr. C]

Here is another time for you to chew on: Renaldo Nehemiah, one of the fastest men to ever play NFL football and an Olympic gold medalist in the hurdles, has the American record for the 55-meter hurdles at 6.89. Greg Foster had the two best times in the 50-meter hurdles at 6.35.

Some additional times: Maurice Greene had two times of 6.39 in the 60-meters (World Records for Indoor Track) and Lee McRae of the University of Pittsburgh had a 6.00 in the 55-meters indoors.

[Mr. C]

Just remember that half of the 4.3 and 4.4 40 times you hear are not legit. Mr. C is right and I think he is agreeing with me when I said earlier that most are not what they say they are.
I'd take that a step farther and say most, if not ALL of those times are not legit. Like I said in an earlier post, the fastest guy I've seen in person playing college football is Randy Moss. Moss actually ran some track and was a Southern Conference sprint champion as a freshman at Marshall.

[appfan2008]

do you know what moss's 40 time was for comparison?

[Mr. C]

Maybe our friend SmallCollegeFootballFan does? I'll post some more stuff in a few minutes, as I just found a good resource for some 40-yard dash times.

[appfan2008]

excellent cant wait i am all of the sudden interested in historic times

[Mr. C]

Wikipedia has some good stuff on 40 times. Read this:

Because so much emphasis is placed on the 40, many players or programs claim to have run much faster times than they actually did. Part of this is hype from college programs wishing to promote their players by claiming they have run sensational times in practice. Another significant issue is that many colleges time players by hand, which typically records inaccurately low times. Because human reaction time is slow, this typically takes as much as 0.25 seconds off a player's time.
As a general rule, only 40 yard dash times recorded electronically can be considered accurate. This method is used at the NFL Combine. However, because this method usually records correct, slower times, many players in recent years have declined to be timed electronically, preferring to be timed in personal workouts where they think they will get a more favorable time by hand.

Here is another interesting entry:

Many reported times are unreliable due to differences in timing methods if not intentional falsifications. The fastest time officially recorded by the NFL was 4.27 seconds by Deion Sanders in 1989 [1], although the NFL did not begin electronic timing until 1990. In the electronic timing era, the fastest recorded time at the NFL Combine was 4.25 seconds (hand time) by cornerback Fabian Washington in 2005. However, his official time at the 2005 Combine was 4.31 seconds[2] Most other times close to 4.0 are untrustworthy due to the use of hand timing, but still many use hand timed 40's such as players including Jerome Mathis (4.25) [3],DeAngelo Hall (4.15)[4][5], Michael Vick (4.25),Lee Suggs (4.27)[6], Bo Jackson (4.12)[7], Don Beebe (4.21)[1], Michael Bennett (4.13)[8], Randy Moss (4.25)[9], Darrell Green (4.15[10], 4.2[11]), and Laveranues Coles (4.2)[12] have approached that mark. Although 40 yards almost never run, the 60 meter dash is a well-regulated, frequently ran track and field distance, the official record for which is 6.39 seconds. However, tapes of sprinter Ben Johnson's world-record breaking 1988 100 meter dash (which was later annulled due to Johnson's steroid use) show that Johnson ran the 60 m in 6.37 seconds; this is considered the quickest start to a race ever.[13] Johnson covered the first 40 meters in 4.53 seconds. It is often reported wrongly that Johnson's first 40 yards was timed; it was actually his first 40 meters. His 40-yard running time was an exceptionally fast 4.24 seconds.

However, in track and field races, the runner must react to the starting gun, which can take 0.10 to 0.20 seconds. For electronically timed 40 yard dashes, the runner is allowed to start when he wishes, and a timer hand-starts the clock (after a reaction time of 0.1 to 0.2 seconds). This difference would indicate that, at peak form, Johnson would have been electronically timed in 4.04 to 4.14 seconds, or hand-timed in about 4.00 seconds, making claims of hand-held times in the 4.1-4.2 range more credible.

[Mr. C]

Here is an excellent article I found on the subject:

The NFL treats 40-yard dash times as sacred
Mark Zeigler, STAFF WRITER // April 20, 2005
Copyright 2005 The San Diego Union-Tribune

Ben Johnson, who is believed to have run 40 yards faster than any human in history... Then again, maybe Ben Johnson isn't the fastest 40-yard man in the world. Maybe half the NFL is faster.

http://www.usoc.org/11611_32384.htm

[appfan2008]

Here is an excellent article I found on the subject:

The NFL treats 40-yard dash times as sacred
Mark Zeigler, STAFF WRITER // April 20, 2005
Copyright 2005 The San Diego Union-Tribune

Ben Johnson, who is believed to have run 40 yards faster than any human in history... Then again, maybe Ben Johnson isn't the fastest 40-yard man in the world. Maybe half the NFL is faster.

http://www.usoc.org/11611_32384.htm
very interesting stuff you have posted above... yeah something tells me that half the nfl is not faster than ben johnson xlolx i saw randy moss is in there at 4.25 which is believable i guess probably more like 4.3 due to reasons in what you posted

[Mr. C]

Here is another good piece I found on the subject:

There's something about hearing fast 40 times that gets football
people salivating. There's only one problem. You can't believe 99% of the times you hear even at the highest
levels of the game. Why not you ask?

http://athletesacceleration.blogspot.com/2007/03/how-to-run-39-second-40-yard-dash.html

[Mr. C]

I found the Randy Moss track times for the 1997 Southern Conference Indoor Track and Field Championships, where he was named MVP and led Marshall to a rare track title. He won the 200 meters in 21.55 (one of the top college times of the year) and also won the 55-meters in 6.32 (nowhere close to Maurice Greene's time or Ben Johnson's).

[appfan2008]

I found the Randy Moss track times for the 1997 Southern Conference Indoor Track and Field Championships, where he was named MVP and led Marshall to a rare track title. He won the 200 meters in 21.55 (one of the top college times of the year) and also won the 55-meters in 6.32 (nowhere close to Maurice Greene's time or Ben Johnson's).
still pretty impressive though

[smallcollegefbfan]

Wikipedia has some good stuff on 40 times. Read this:

Because so much emphasis is placed on the 40, many players or programs claim to have run much faster times than they actually did. Part of this is hype from college programs wishing to promote their players by claiming they have run sensational times in practice. Another significant issue is that many colleges time players by hand, which typically records inaccurately low times. Because human reaction time is slow, this typically takes as much as 0.25 seconds off a player's time.
As a general rule, only 40 yard dash times recorded electronically can be considered accurate. This method is used at the NFL Combine. However, because this method usually records correct, slower times, many players in recent years have declined to be timed electronically, preferring to be timed in personal workouts where they think they will get a more favorable time by hand.

Here is another interesting entry:

Many reported times are unreliable due to differences in timing methods if not intentional falsifications. The fastest time officially recorded by the NFL was 4.27 seconds by Deion Sanders in 1989 [1], although the NFL did not begin electronic timing until 1990. In the electronic timing era, the fastest recorded time at the NFL Combine was 4.25 seconds (hand time) by cornerback Fabian Washington in 2005. However, his official time at the 2005 Combine was 4.31 seconds[2] Most other times close to 4.0 are untrustworthy due to the use of hand timing, but still many use hand timed 40's such as players including Jerome Mathis (4.25) [3],DeAngelo Hall (4.15)[4][5], Michael Vick (4.25),Lee Suggs (4.27)[6], Bo Jackson (4.12)[7], Don Beebe (4.21)[1], Michael Bennett (4.13)[8], Randy Moss (4.25)[9], Darrell Green (4.15[10], 4.2[11]), and Laveranues Coles (4.2)[12] have approached that mark. Although 40 yards almost never run, the 60 meter dash is a well-regulated, frequently ran track and field distance, the official record for which is 6.39 seconds. However, tapes of sprinter Ben Johnson's world-record breaking 1988 100 meter dash (which was later annulled due to Johnson's steroid use) show that Johnson ran the 60 m in 6.37 seconds; this is considered the quickest start to a race ever.[13] Johnson covered the first 40 meters in 4.53 seconds. It is often reported wrongly that Johnson's first 40 yards was timed; it was actually his first 40 meters. His 40-yard running time was an exceptionally fast 4.24 seconds.

However, in track and field races, the runner must react to the starting gun, which can take 0.10 to 0.20 seconds. For electronically timed 40 yard dashes, the runner is allowed to start when he wishes, and a timer hand-starts the clock (after a reaction time of 0.1 to 0.2 seconds). This difference would indicate that, at peak form, Johnson would have been electronically timed in 4.04 to 4.14 seconds, or hand-timed in about 4.00 seconds, making claims of hand-held times in the 4.1-4.2 range more credible.


That article is right about electronic times being the most accurate. I tend to lean on those more than hand held times.

This is good info but the only bad thing is that wikipedia articles can be posted by anyone so they are not always true. However, I feel this information is true for sure.

Laverneus Coles of Florida State was the fastest player I ever saw and he ran a 4.16 either at the combine or his pro day. Most forget him because of off field issues that kept him from graduating at Florida State.

[Mr. C]

The sources, however, for this Wikipedia article are very accurate.

If you read the other articles, you should KNOW that Laverneus Coles probably DIDN'T run a TRUE 4.16. You have to add time to ALL NFL times because of the way they allow the player to start. A 4.16 would make Coles almost as fast as Ben Johnson. Absolutely, no way.

I had to laugh as this comment by you, SmallCollegeFootballFan:

I tend to lean on those more than hand held times.

Tend to? Hand-held times are totally inaccurate. I don't see why anyone around the NFL or college rely on them AT ALL.

[appfan2008]

It is almost like this guy hasnt read any of this thread at all...

[smallcollegefbfan]

The sources, however, for this Wikipedia article are very accurate.

If you read the other articles, you should KNOW that Laverneus Coles probably DIDN'T run a TRUE 4.16. You have to add time to ALL NFL times because of the way they allow the player to start. A 4.16 would make Coles almost as fast as Ben Johnson. Absolutely, no way.

I had to laugh as this comment by you, SmallCollegeFootballFan:

I tend to lean on those more than hand held times.

Tend to? Hand-held times are totally inaccurate. I don't see why anyone around the NFL or college rely on them AT ALL.

"That article is right about electronic times being the most accurate. I tend to lean on those more than hand held times. "

I said I lean more towards believing the electronic times. I was just agreeing with you. That article did look legit and I am in TOTAL agreement with you. I know for a fact that NFL people don't believe all these times you see by schools. Heck most of the general public doesn't even agree. It is like those blistering times ran by Virginia Tech players. Everyone knows they have been running on a slight downhill slope so their times are going to be .10-.15 faster than they really are.

The fastest player from the FCS this year is Geoffrey Pope of Howard. He ran a 4.27 at his senior pro day according to hand-held times. I would say his electronic time is still a mid 4.3 or so. He is a former track guy too.

[Mr. C]

Which means in reality, adjusting to 4.3 and then adding .25, it becomes 4.55. Then when you account for the goofy starts that the NFL allows, it becomes another couple of tenths slower. Track guy, or not, he didn't run a 4.27.

[smallcollegefbfan]

Which means in reality, adjusting to 4.3 and then adding .25, it becomes 4.55. Then when you account for the goofy starts that the NFL allows, it becomes another couple of tenths slower. Track guy, or not, he didn't run a 4.27.

I saw him play and he plays like a high 4.3 guy. The NFL does not allow rolling starts and that is actually the better way to do it. Sometimes strength coaches let players have a rolling start out of their stance and that is why many players go from 4.45 for the school to a 4.55 for NFL teams.

Pope is a very fast player, no matter how you cut it. He will run a 4.42 or so worst case on an electronic time. I tend to believe the 4.31 time more than 4.27. I heard the lowest watch on him was 4.27 and you know how players and agents are. They want to pub that time and put that one out for the media. Most who have seen Howard might not remember Pope but if you go back and look he was the one who was shutting down receivers on his side of the field. Since they were not getting balls thrown to him you never heard Pope's name. That is the sign of a good CB when you never hear their name or you only hear it because of a big hit on the RB or they picked off a pass.

[appfan2008]

what is a 4.3 guy anyway... does that mean he is really 4.4 electronically or doesnt mean he is 4.2 hand held???

just thought i would get you thinking!

[smallcollegefbfan]

what is a 4.3 guy anyway... does that mean he is really 4.4 electronically or doesnt mean he is 4.2 hand held???

just thought i would get you thinking!

I think it depends on the clock. For example I read somewhere at a pro day where a player ran just one 40 and the clocks ranged from 4.52-4.62. How can one time have a range that big? Some clocks are faster while others are slower. I would lean more towards believing that the player is a 4.55-4.58 guy after reading that.

[seantaylor]

I think it depends on the clock. For example I read somewhere at a pro day where a player ran just one 40 and the clocks ranged from 4.52-4.62. How can one time have a range that big? Some clocks are faster while others are slower. I would lean more towards believing that the player is a 4.55-4.58 guy after reading that.


Those times are with the wind, and against the wind.

[DinoDex200]

This reminds me...I'd really like to see a count of how many times a D-Lineman has to run 40 yards down the field in a given season. When you have a big OL leaning on you...it really doesn't matter how fast you can run in a straight line, does it?

The way for a guy like Murrell to prove himself is to get out on the field and maneuver his way around a few OT's to show coaches his ability...that's the only way you really know what they can do. And that maneuvering involves alot of misdirection, attacking with your hands, etc. NOT "speed".

If he's an LB...well, NFL tackling machine Ray Lewis is well documented to "only" run a 4.7-4.8 40...

[Mr. C]

I saw him play and he plays like a high 4.3 guy. The NFL does not allow rolling starts and that is actually the better way to do it. Sometimes strength coaches let players have a rolling start out of their stance and that is why many players go from 4.45 for the school to a 4.55 for NFL teams.

Pope is a very fast player, no matter how you cut it. He will run a 4.42 or so worst case on an electronic time. I tend to believe the 4.31 time more than 4.27. I heard the lowest watch on him was 4.27 and you know how players and agents are. They want to pub that time and put that one out for the media. Most who have seen Howard might not remember Pope but if you go back and look he was the one who was shutting down receivers on his side of the field. Since they were not getting balls thrown to him you never heard Pope's name. That is the sign of a good CB when you never hear their name or you only hear it because of a big hit on the RB or they picked off a pass.
What is playing like a 4.3 guy? I just explained why he ISN'T a 4.3 guy. If the 4.2 whatever is hand timed it ISN'T accurate. A 4.2-plus means the guy in reality is a 4.6 guy at best. And you need to adjust ALL these times accordingly. Unless you time ALL players at the combine, where they are all running under the same conditions (and where you need to start correctly with Accu-Track-type timing), the times are not going to be accurate. The times that are done at pro days and the times that are done by individual schools, with all sorts of tricks being used (like the Virginia Tech one you told about), are virtually meaningless.

The best way to judge speed is to watch these people play in person, against each other. Like I have said in other threads, there are a lot of guys (Jerry Rice, Emmitt Smith are two that come to mind) that play much faster in game situations.

[citdog]

Seems to me that either you can run that fast or you can't. the timing seems a little like the radar guns in baseball some are faster than others.

[Mr. C]

You said it Citdog. And when I watch a player play, it usually isn't hard to figure out which ones are fast and which ones are not. Take those hand-held clocks and toss them down the toilet.

[appfan2008]

sort of like greg maddux... he never got it out of the eighties and he has over 300 wins what is it 4 or 5 cy youngs and is a sure fire first ballot hall of famer... speed aint everything

[smallcollegefbfan]

There are 4.2, 4.3, and 4.4 players out there. Just not many of them.

One bad thing about pro days is that some players run on a track and they never play on a track. I think that 40 times would also be more believable if they put on the pads. Some players run faster in pads than others. I say put them all at the combine and have them run in pads under the same conditions with the same timer and then you have a legit 40 time.

Geoffrey Pope is a burner. If you watch him play he is much faster than everyone else. He should have been a 1st team All-MEAC player but his lack of INTs and hype by the school kept him from being noticed by the media. It is funny how media outlets cover a sport but miss on great players like him. They also seem to be overlooking Kendall Langford this coming year and he is a top 10 defensive player in the nation for sure.

[Mr. C]

Interesting segment on the NFL Network Draft Preview show today. They were talking about how that players are starting to put more emphasis on training for the NFL combine, instead of training "to be better football players."

One comment (not sure who the analyst was): "I want to know how fast a kid is on the football field, not how fast he is in the combine."

They went on to say that some of the shuttle drills and stuff like that are more important for evaluating players, because they are doing football-type things.