Tranfers vs Academics

[ChickenMan]

Since UD won a title in '03 with the help of two very talented 1A transfers... there has been a lot of negative talk about the desirability or credibility of 1AA schools accepting transfers into their programs. Prior to '03... the transfer question never seemed to be an issue... but I do recall that the question of programs accepting players with substandard academic qualifications was sometimes debated. Since both the transfer and academic issues are still present today... I'll throw out this question for debate...

Which is a bigger concern or negative to you...

A... schools that accept academicly qualified transfers

B... schools that recruit players with questionable academics

[JohnStOnge]

Neither one bothers me per se. What I don't like is schools accepting students who wouldn't be given a shot if they weren't football players.

Don't do things like require minimum standardized test scores for people who are going to be in the general student body then let football recruits who score far lower in. Of course, what I'd like instead of making the football recruits score higher is to let other students who score lower in.

I do not favor admissions standards beyond some very minimal stuff like graduating from high school or equivalent at all unless it's a situation where the school just can't take all the applicants because there are too many and has to choose on the basis of merit. I lament the elitism that has developed so that somebody who wants to try to go to college is turned away because of the absurd notion that there has to be a cause and effect relationship between admissions standards and quality of education. There is only such a cause and effect relationship if the school chooses to make one. On the other side, high admissions standards don't have to mean the education is better. All the time I see people argue that one school is better than another because it has higher admissions standards. And everytime I see it it's a conclusion based on an unsubstantiated assumption.

[Eagle_77]

I wouldnt say that transfers have never been an issue. Think back to Marshall and their last two years of I-AA. Those teams where glorified I-A teams loaded with tranfers.

If Sam Houston would have won last year or Montana would have won or even Furman, they all would have been lead to the championship by I-A transfers. JMU was lead by a I-A transfer but granted he was not as big a part of the offense as the previously named schools. I believe that we are seeing more I-A transfers because for one, kids are more use to getting their way now days and getting out of dodge when they dont and two, these guys are more aware of the great quality of football played at this level.

I dont think that Delaware is that much different, just the first we saw suceed with the new trend of good players transfering to I-AA for PT.

[PapaBear]

[QUOTE=ChickenMan]Which is a bigger concern or negative to you...

A... schools that accept academicly qualified transfers

B... schools that recruit players with questionable academics

To me, the more important issue with respect to accepting student athletes (transfers or original apps) isn't whether they meet the school's admission standards. It's whether they can do the work.

My son was recruited by every Ivy school, and was offered by two of them. He ended up going elsewhere ... but the fact is, those Ivies would NEVER have given him a second look had he not been a football player. They wrote and called and visited him, and even formally asked him to attend, because they knew he could do the work -- even if his GPA and SATs didn't quite confirm that in the way the Admissions Office expected them to.

If he had been a 2.0 with an 850 SAT and they STILL came after him, I'd wonder whether they were prostituting themseves, because those numbers send a message that the kid likely would fail when subjected to the rigorous academic demands of an Ivy (or Patriot) school.

I put "relaxed" admission standard in the same category as financial aid. Schools set tuition rates, and then they come up with financial packages to lure attractive students who might not be able to afford the tuition.

[foghorn]

:) The late Redd Foxx, used to say in his standups: "There's only one thing that held me back from college..... HIGH SCHOOL!!" And IMO, that's the way it should be, whether you're an athlete or not.
Lowering the standards for athletes not only adds to the "dumbing down of America", but also gives a bad message to highschoolers ; that being that if you excel at a sport and don't go pro, a college will somehow make room for you, no matter what your grades are. A rigid acceptance policy, which doesn't give preferential treatment to athletes, might wake up the parents of these kids to put more emphasis on academics and have a tighter rein on them to study.
It makes me sad when I hear some 'student'- athletes interviewed on TV who can't speak English, at least as we know it. At the same time, I feel very proud when I read about some of our (UD) kids who've won academic honors.
I think the schools most guilty of lowering standards are your large, BCS football and basketball factories who've become dependent on football and basketball revenue.
When all the arguments concerning Div. I-A vs. Div. I-AA are said and done, the one that impresses me the most is the academic integrity which seems to be practiced much more in Div. I-AA than in Div. I-A. This, of course, is not to say that strong academics can't be demanded at the I-A level.
As long as tranfers meet the academic standards of the accepting school, I have no problem with it. Holding recruits to lower standards in academic qualifications, IMO, is flatout wrong. :( Go Hens!

[kats89]

Since UD won a title in '03 with the help of two very talented 1A transfers... there has been a lot of negative talk about the desirability or credibility of 1AA schools accepting transfers into their programs. Prior to '03... the transfer question never seemed to be an issue... but I do recall that the question of programs accepting players with substandard academic qualifications was sometimes debated. Since both the transfer and academic issues are still present today... I'll throw out this question for debate...

Which is a bigger concern or negative to you...

A... schools that accept academicly qualified transfers

B... schools that recruit players with questionable academics





Sam Houston has had its share of transfers we won the Southland Conference All-Academic Title last year. Apparently we can do both.

[Tribe4SF]

There's nothing wrong with accepting transfers. I think if it's done to excess, it can potentially hurt recruiting, especially at QB.

As far as questionable academic credentials, it's really about what the school and the program are trying to achieve. It's clear that high academic standards and athletic success are very compatible. Under the APR system, schools who don't value the academic success of their athletes are supposed to find it harder to compete athletically. We'll see if that comes to pass.

[Mr. C]

In my mind there was absolutely nothing wrong with Shawn Johnson transferring from Duke to Delaware. He was a gifted student, who had graduated from a great school and he enrolled in graduate-level classes at another great school, Delaware. He also got a chance to win a national championship. Now I have a lot of problem with a player like Dustin Long, who transferred to Sam Houston State to play football, while still taking classes at Texas A&M. Then he drops out of SHSU and graduates from A&M. I would suggest a rule where a team is penalized a loss of a scholarship if they are involved with something like that. I think the Long case got a lot more people's attention than Johnson's did and that is why some people are wanting to put up restrictions. You also have schools who don't, or can't attract transfers crying the loudest about the schools that do. It all comes down to who is winning and who isn't.

[Tribe4SF]

Many of my fellow Tribe fans complain about transfers at other schools because we get so few. I don't hear them complaining when we get one, however. It's harder to transfer to W&M than it is to get in as a freshman. When Boston University dropped football, there were several players who wanted to come to W&M, but only Mike Leach could get in.

[blukeys]

In my mind there was absolutely nothing wrong with Shawn Johnson transferring from Duke to Delaware. He was a gifted student, who had graduated from a great school and he enrolled in graduate-level classes at another great school, Delaware.
Thanx for the sentiment Mr. C. I have already done enough rants and rain dances defending Johnson. I have done it not so much to defend UD on boards such as this, UD always has plenty of passionate defenders, but because a fine young man was being trashed without his whole story being aired and when the story and facts were readily available. A certain dumb idiotic ex-jock broadcaster for ESPN in particular needs to be shot for his lack of professionalism regarding his comments.

The impression that Johnson was a hired gun was amplified by UD haters who have their own agenda. My anger at these idiots is that they are willing to trash the reputation of a perfectly fine student athlete to downgrade UD. If you don't like Ud fine say what you want and back it up. But Don't smear a young man who has done nothing wrong to get your "revenge on UD".

On the main question, My view is accepting any player who can't cut it academically is criminal. I believe this is a bigger problem in basketball but that doesn't excuse football. When you see some of the graduation rates of D-1 basketball teams (after 5 years) it is clear that the schools are using the players with no intention of giving them an education. While just about every college player has dreams of playing pro the reality is that the vast majority will not and their best bet for a decent future is the college education that is being offered to them. The idea that a college would accept a player with the knowledge that statistically he will probably NOT be able to successfully get his degree is worse than irresponsible.

Most athletes transfer for the simple fact that they do not see that they are going to get playing time at their first school choice. I have no problem with players doing this. The idea that a player would commit 10 years to developing skills in a sport to have his family and friends watch him ride the bench for 4 years is ridiculous. Athletes want to contribute and play. Finding the place where they can do that whether it is BCS or D-III is in everyone's best interest.

Brent Steinmetz came to UD under Tubby Raynond and the Wing-T. KC Keeler came in and changed the offense leaving Brent out of the picture. KC helped Brent transfer to West chester where he became the team's leading rusher and helped the team to the D-II semifinals. Sounds like everyone is a winner in a deal like this.

[ngineer]

Consistent application of meaningful academic standards for transfers and recruited high schoolers should be the norm. So long as the student can do the work and reflect the student body, then I see nothing wrong with whether he's a transfer or a freshman.

[ngineer]

[QUOTE=ChickenMan]Which is a bigger concern or negative to you...

A... schools that accept academicly qualified transfers

B... schools that recruit players with questionable academics

To me, the more important issue with respect to accepting student athletes (transfers or original apps) isn't whether they meet the school's admission standards. It's whether they can do the work.

My son was recruited by every Ivy school, and was offered by two of them. He ended up going elsewhere ... but the fact is, those Ivies would NEVER have given him a second look had he not been a football player. They wrote and called and visited him, and even formally asked him to attend, because they knew he could do the work -- even if his GPA and SATs didn't quite confirm that in the way the Admissions Office expected them to.

If he had been a 2.0 with an 850 SAT and they STILL came after him, I'd wonder whether they were prostituting themseves, because those numbers send a message that the kid likely would fail when subjected to the rigorous academic demands of an Ivy (or Patriot) school.

I put "relaxed" admission standard in the same category as financial aid. Schools set tuition rates, and then they come up with financial packages to lure attractive students who might not be able to afford the tuition.

There's no secret that the Ivies may 'allowances' for athletes. Supposedly the League uses some type of formula that allows for a 'standard deviation' from the student body. Similar to the Patriot. However, there has been a lot of general acknowledgement that Penn has been the recipient of a number of questionable admissions that Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Dartmouth, Columbia and Brown have complained about. Cornell, supposedly is viewed more on the Penn side of the ledger sheet, as well. Despite the various rumors that occur, both leagues still make a concerted effort to apply academic standards that are stricter than most leagues.

[RadMann]

I don't think that transfers and academic qualifications should be linked. If a football program follows strict academic requirements for all potential athletes then it does not matter if the athlete is a high school recruit or a transfer. I think the link is brought up in the cases where academically troubled student athletes leave one institution for another. Accepting essentially failing students from another institution simply to allow them to play football is a questionable transfer policy to be sure, but I am unaware of programs who do this. I know UD does not and I'm sure most A-10 schools don't either.

[JoltinJoe]

In my mind there was absolutely nothing wrong with Shawn Johnson transferring from Duke to Delaware. He was a gifted student, who had graduated from a great school and he enrolled in graduate-level classes at another great school, Delaware. He also got a chance to win a national championship. Now I have a lot of problem with a player like Dustin Long, who transferred to Sam Houston State to play football, while still taking classes at Texas A&M. Then he drops out of SHSU and graduates from A&M. I would suggest a rule where a team is penalized a loss of a scholarship if they are involved with something like that. I think the Long case got a lot more people's attention than Johnson's did and that is why some people are wanting to put up restrictions. You also have schools who don't, or can't attract transfers crying the loudest about the schools that do. It all comes down to who is winning and who isn't.

It kills me that Johnson's first choice for his graduate program was Fordham, but a PL bylaw prohibits graduate transfers from playing. This is because a number of the PL schools are liberal arts colleges without graduate programs. Johnson had already been accepted and enrolled at Fordham before this PL bylaw was called to the coaching staff's attention.

So Dave Clawson, the Fordham coach at the time, contacted Dave Cohen, the Delaware defensive coordinator who had formerly been a Fordham assistant coach, and got Johnson and Delaware together.

Do we get to claim a share in Delaware's national title?

[blukeys]

It kills me that Johnson's first choice for his graduate program was Fordham, but a PL bylaw prohibits graduate transfers from playing. .......So Dave Clawson, the Fordham coach at the time, contacted Dave Cohen, the Delaware defensive coordinator who had formerly been a Fordham assistant coach, and got Johnson and Delaware together.

Do we get to claim a share in Delaware's national title?

Johnson wanted Fordham due to the fact that:
1. They had developed a winning program. He was tired of losing.
2. His brother played there and he wanted to play on the same team as his brohter AND
3. His family who are from New York could come and see both brothers play.

I don't think Fordham will get a share of the title (Sorry ;) ) but they are owed a big old thank you and attaboy from UD fans for acting with class and looking out for the best interests of the player.

In addition based on his positive Delaware experience, Johnson's younger brother has come on board to play at Delaware. He was red shirted last year and may get some playing time at linebacker although that is a very deep spot on the UD roster. Maybe he will switch to DE later. If the younger Johnson helps Ud get another title I believe that all fordham fans should get unlimited rights to drink at Delaware tailgates. Will this help? :D :) ;) :D

[JoltinJoe]

I don't think Fordham will get a share of the title (Sorry ;) ) but they are owed a big old thank you and attaboy from UD fans for acting with class and looking out for the best interests of the player.

In addition based on his positive Delaware experience, Johnson's younger brother has come on board to play at Delaware. He was red shirted last year and may get some playing time at linebacker although that is a very deep spot on the UD roster. Maybe he will switch to DE later. If the younger Johnson helps Ud get another title I believe that all fordham fans should get unlimited rights to drink at Delaware tailgates. Will this help? :D :) ;) :D

Unlimited drinking rights at the Delaware tailgates? Damn, that's even better than a national title! :beerchug:

[blukeys]

Unlimited drinking rights at the Delaware tailgates? Damn, that's even better than a national title! :beerchug:

LMAO
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

:beerchug: :beerchug: :beerchug: :beerchug: