New Addition to the Big South

[pcguy09]

I have heard it tossed around many times, and everyone ive heard from would love to see it... but this mainly for the Stoneybrook and Albany guys.. have yall heard anything about moving to the Big South Conference? It has been a pretty heavy topic on the big south message board... http://www.bigsouthtalk.net
just wanted some feedback

[UAalum72]

The only talk I've heard has been from Big South fans. My opinion - not a fit geographically, or by college profile. If there were an immediate autobid, and no other league movement likely, then maybe, but there isn't a bid ready. Rather wait a year or two and see if something more suitable happens.

[andy7171]

Thats alot of ground to cover for games. What's the northern most member of the Big South now? Liberty? VMI? Central VA is quite a distance to LI or upstate NY.

I can't see it happening, especially with an impending break up of the CAA. Something better for Albany and Stoneybrook is going to shake out.

[pcguy09]

right, i had heard it would be around 2008 when something would be announced. i think Radford, Liberty and VMI are the northern most schools.

[andy7171]

right, i had heard it would be around 2008 when something would be announced. i think Radford, Liberty and VMI are the northern most schools.
Are you talking all sports or just football? I assumed you were speaking about just football. Radford doesn't play football. I'm pretty sure Stoneybrook and Albany are happy with the America East for other sports. Albany played some good b-ball in the AE this year.

[appfan2008]

i dont see that happening
the big south is mainly in the 2 carolinas and virginia which is no where near NY
why would they want to do that?
it is not a step up and travel expences would be ridiculous for all sports

[mainejeff]

Thats alot of ground to cover for games. What's the northern most member of the Big South now? Liberty? VMI? Central VA is quite a distance to LI or upstate NY.

I can't see it happening, especially with an impending break up of the CAA. Something better for Albany and Stoneybrook is going to shake out.

The CAA is breaking up?

[danefan]

This has been rumored around here...but mainly brought up by Big South fans. No offense to Big South guys, but I don't think it makes any sense for us. The costs of travel would be ridiculous compared to now. The only way Albany leaves the NEC anytime soon (IMO) is for a conference with an AQ. No other reason to leave. But hey, what do I know.

[dbackjon]

The only way I see this happening is a short term way for the Big South to qualify for a AQ, and for UA and SBU to have a home for full schollie football until AE football gets going. More a scheduling alliance than anything.

[danefan]

The only way I see this happening is a short term way for the Big South to qualify for a AQ, and for UA and SBU to have a home for full schollie football until AE football gets going. More a scheduling alliance than anything.

It it actually sounds appealing to me when you phrase it like that.

So here's the question: if UA and Stony Brook went to the Big South in 2008 how long would they have to wait for an AQ?

[rufus]

The CAA is breaking up?
I'm guessing he meant the CAA football conference only. There has long been speculation that Maine, UNH, URI, and UMass would join Stony Brook and Albany to start AEC football, but I've never been convinced. I just don't know if I see some of those schools, especially UMass, leaving one of the strongest FCS conferences to compete in an upstart conference with no autobid. I can see it for the all-sports AEC members, but it seems less appealing for the affiliates.

Beyond the possibility of AEC football, I can't imagine too many other CAA membership changes. I think there's an outside chance that an affiliate like Richmond or Villanova could look elsewhere. JMU obviously has its eyes on other opportunities, but is unlikely to make a move unless the right opportunity presents itself. I guess there's an extrememly remote possibility that Hofstra or Northeastern could be lured back to the AEC, but it would be a big step down in basketball. Overall I think the CAA will be pretty stable.

[andy7171]

The CAA is breaking up?
No, but something is going to have to give if/when Georgia St and ODU start up football. I can't imagine a 13 or 14 team football league.
I'm talking 3-4 years down the road of course. But something is going to shake up situation. Can you agree to that?:twocents:

[mainejeff]

I guess there's an extrememly remote possibility that Hofstra or Northeastern could be lured back to the AEC, but it would be a big step down in basketball. Overall I think the CAA will be pretty stable.

Is it really a big "step down" when you allow your basketball program to once again have a realistic shot at making the NCAA tourney? I think playing "big names" like ODU, VCU and GMU only gets you so far with fans and recruits if you fail year after year after year to make the NCAA tourney.

[mainejeff]

No, but something is going to have to give if/when Georgia St and ODU start up football. I can't imagine a 13 or 14 team football league.
I'm talking 3-4 years down the road of course. But something is going to shake up situation. Can you agree to that?:twocents:

Is Georgia State starting a football program??? They can't even get 1,000 people to show up to basketball games :confused:

[andy7171]

Is it really a big "step down" when you allow your basketball program to once again have a realistic shot at making the NCAA tourney? I think playing "big names" like ODU, VCU and GMU only gets you so far with fans and recruits if you fail year after year after year to make the NCAA tourney.
Mason was not good this year. Hofstra is a top CAA team. And might/should get an at-large bid.

[appfan2008]

I think the CAA will break up due to the extreme geographic situation and the fact that it would be so easy to rectify!

[rufus]

Is it really a big "step down" when you allow your basketball program to once again have a realistic shot at making the NCAA tourney? I think playing "big names" like ODU, VCU and GMU only gets you so far with fans and recruits if you fail year after year after year to make the NCAA tourney.
The CAA will likely get 2-3 bids this year, and is likely to be at least a 2 bid league going forward. If Hofstra and Northeastern were to move back to the AEC, they would have a 1/11 shot at the tournament. In the CAA, they have a 1/6 or 1/4 shot at the tournament. If I'm a fan of those schools, I like my odds in the CAA.

[andy7171]

I think the CAA will break up due to the extreme geographic situation and the fact that it would be so easy to rectify!
Virginia to Maine isn't all that "extreme". Its the potential addition of GSU that would cause stress. As it is now, a CAA South team would only have to fly to 1-2 of the North schools a year which isn't really that much to ask.

[mainejeff]

Virginia to Maine isn't all that "extreme". Its the potential addition of GSU that would cause stress. As it is now, a CAA South team would only have to fly to 1-2 of the North schools a year which isn't really that much to ask.

Or asking a CAA North team to fly South 1-2 times.....;)

Why does it seem like the "South" are the only ones that get put out by the travel? Because their fans whine more?

[mainejeff]

The CAA will likely get 2-3 bids this year, and is likely to be at least a 2 bid league going forward. If Hofstra and Northeastern were to move back to the AEC, they would have a 1/11 shot at the tournament. In the CAA, they have a 1/6 or 1/4 shot at the tournament. If I'm a fan of those schools, I like my odds in the CAA.

A 2 bid league going forward, huh.......? We'll see about that ;)

[CSU BUCS]

I heard it directley from someone high up in the Big South office last October. They were pretty confident about it......... talked as though it was a done deal. I can't/won't say who I spoke with on the issue.

[CSU BUCS]

They bothe will be football only members.

[Dane96]

Guys,

I know you want this to happen, however here are some facts:

Fact 1: You guys are nowhere near our footprint.
Fact 2: The Big South is not an autobid conference
Fact 3: Albany, at least, will not be at 63 scholarships in the forseeable future (as in 08). MAYBE...we will go to 45 (I HOPE).

Now, that being said, here are other facts:

Fact 1: It would be good to get into your footprint for recruiting purposes. A PLUS FOR ALBANY AND SBU.

Fact 2: Unless there are some serious backdoor discussions, the Big South is not getting an autobid by 2008. Additionally, once the Danes and Seawolves join, we would have to be together for what, five years, before we could get an autobid. NO WAY IN SAM'S HELL ALBANY IS PLAYING A BIG SOUTH SCHEDULE until 2013...just to get an autobid when they may leave by 2013 or 14 for the landscape changes we ALL EXPECT to occur.

Additionally, I would think that if the Big South got an auto, it would ONLY be based on ALL LEAGUES getting an auto, or at least the NEC in that equation. E.g., PLAYOFF EXPANSION. I could guarantee you that if the Big South got an auto...and the NEC did not, the NEC would sue the NCAA...and likely win an anti-trust suit. The only way they could lose is if the min. spending dollars or rides proposal went down. IN that scenerio, even if Albany werent at the full allotment, the rest of the Big South would be...circumventing the NEC's argument.

Where is the autobid coming from? Albany is best served sticking to a improved NEC where they can schedule like we have for the past years. IF we win our schedule...we are at-large bound. We dont need the Big South to do that, especially a Big South with no auto-bid.

FACT 3: THE ONLY THING THAT WOULD CHANGE THIS ARGUMENT IS THE REALIZATION OF AN INCREASE IN SCHOLARSHIPS BY THE DANES...AND THE NEC NOT INCREASING THE MAX LIMIT. That being said, UA has a gender equity problem once we get to a certain number...a number far below 63. That would require adding a women's sport. Eventually, this will occur, however unlike SBU, ALBANY has a plan and isnt spending the 17mm a year on an overall program that hasn't done much.

If you havent noticed, Albany has a pretty strong SPORTS PROGRAM, with tourney appearances in Basketball, Lacrosse, Volleyball, Softball, Track and Field, etc.

Unlike our downstate friends, Albany has and is building itself to be an overall solid mid-major. So, the likelihood we drop $$ on a new women's team and a completion of our full allotment of football rides in the near future, is slim.

McElroy has a plan...and I didnt believe in it at first because I wanted quick change. However, the results are evident and I believe in his plan.

Now some of you have stated that the Big South wouldnt mind if we were at 45 rides...as long as we were moving forward, ala Chuck Southern. However, again, by the time all that comes along (full-rides and the B. South Auto-Bid) Albany will be doing something else up North.

Guys, there is alot more to this than you can imagine. It isnt like we can just up and go.

Additionally, whose paying our NEC buyout. Also, I know we are nearly complete with the 2008 schedule...and I havent heard of Big South teams.

HEY...not saying this can't happen or we aren't talking, however it is not as CONCRETE as those in the know are telling you.:twocents:

[aceinthehole]

Where is the autobid coming from? Albany is best served sticking to a improved NEC where they can schedule like we have for the past years. IF we win our schedule...we are at-large bound. We dont need the Big South to do that, especially a Big South with no auto-bid.


Thanks for that dose of REALITY. The move does not give UA IMMEDIATE AQ access. For years Albany's schedule has been a model for teams trying to earn at at-large berth. If they win the games on their schedule, they're in. They don't need an AQ with the SOS. I know CCSU has adopted that same philosophy.

I agree and think Albany is best suited in the NEC and has been pushing the league members to improve football. And to date almost every team has followed suit to a limited degree. Even new member Duqense is going to add limited schollys!

I just wish the SBU athletic department was more of a team player and stayed with the UA and the NEC. We are trying very hard for an AQ and are making progress! I'm glad UA is a member through 2010, personally hope to keep the UA-CCSU gridiron rivalry going for years to come.

[CCU97]

I for one agree with you Dane96...Albany nor SB are a good fit for the Big South... It would be bad for you guys and for the teams in the conference....I would much rather get a few teams closer to our schools in the conference....

[CSU BUCS]

Guys,


Additionally, once the Danes and Seawolves join, we would have to be together for what, five years, before we could get an autobid.

Two years.

[dbackjon]

I just wish the SBU athletic department was more of a team player and stayed with the UA and the NEC. We are trying very hard for an AQ and are making progress! I'm glad UA is a member through 2010, personally hope to keep the UA-CCSU gridiron rivalry going for years to come.

Unfortunately, as NDSU, Northern Colorado and SDSU found out, being a team player when not everyone is on the same page can serously hold back a program. Those three schools wanted to move the entire NCC to Divison I back in the 90's. Had they done so, the NCC would be an auto-bid conference for both NCAA basketball, and FCS playoffs. Stony Brook wants to compete at the highest level - to do so realisticly means offering 63 schollies. The NEC is not prepared to go to that level anytime soon. CCSU, UA, Monmouth have some serious soul-searching as to what direction they want their programs to go - continue to improve, and keep gaining respect, or get to the 30 schollie plateau and stagnate?

[BigApp]

I personally can't see it happening

[The Gadfly]

I can see the next two teams being Jacksonville and Delaware State. Maybe even ETSU or SC St. in the mix as well.

[BigApp]

I can see the next two teams being Jacksonville and Delaware State. Maybe even ETSU or SC St. in the mix as well.

Jacksonville? or Jacksonville State?

[Col Hogan]

Guys,

I know you want this to happen, however here are some facts:

Fact 1: You guys are nowhere near our footprint.
Fact 2: The Big South is not an autobid conference
Fact 3: Albany, at least, will not be at 63 scholarships in the forseeable future (as in 08). MAYBE...we will go to 45 (I HOPE).

Now, that being said, here are other facts:

Fact 1: It would be good to get into your footprint for recruiting purposes. A PLUS FOR ALBANY AND SBU.

Fact 2: Unless there are some serious backdoor discussions, the Big South is not getting an autobid by 2008. Additionally, once the Danes and Seawolves join, we would have to be together for what, five years, before we could get an autobid. NO WAY IN SAM'S HELL ALBANY IS PLAYING A BIG SOUTH SCHEDULE until 2013...just to get an autobid when they may leave by 2013 or 14 for the landscape changes we ALL EXPECT to occur.

Additionally, I would think that if the Big South got an auto, it would ONLY be based on ALL LEAGUES getting an auto, or at least the NEC in that equation. E.g., PLAYOFF EXPANSION. I could guarantee you that if the Big South got an auto...and the NEC did not, the NEC would sue the NCAA...and likely win an anti-trust suit. The only way they could lose is if the min. spending dollars or rides proposal went down. IN that scenerio, even if Albany werent at the full allotment, the rest of the Big South would be...circumventing the NEC's argument.

Where is the autobid coming from? Albany is best served sticking to a improved NEC where they can schedule like we have for the past years. IF we win our schedule...we are at-large bound. We dont need the Big South to do that, especially a Big South with no auto-bid.

FACT 3: THE ONLY THING THAT WOULD CHANGE THIS ARGUMENT IS THE REALIZATION OF AN INCREASE IN SCHOLARSHIPS BY THE DANES...AND THE NEC NOT INCREASING THE MAX LIMIT. That being said, UA has a gender equity problem once we get to a certain number...a number far below 63. That would require adding a women's sport. Eventually, this will occur, however unlike SBU, ALBANY has a plan and isnt spending the 17mm a year on an overall program that hasn't done much.

If you havent noticed, Albany has a pretty strong SPORTS PROGRAM, with tourney appearances in Basketball, Lacrosse, Volleyball, Softball, Track and Field, etc.

Unlike our downstate friends, Albany has and is building itself to be an overall solid mid-major. So, the likelihood we drop $$ on a new women's team and a completion of our full allotment of football rides in the near future, is slim.

McElroy has a plan...and I didnt believe in it at first because I wanted quick change. However, the results are evident and I believe in his plan.

Now some of you have stated that the Big South wouldnt mind if we were at 45 rides...as long as we were moving forward, ala Chuck Southern. However, again, by the time all that comes along (full-rides and the B. South Auto-Bid) Albany will be doing something else up North.

Guys, there is alot more to this than you can imagine. It isnt like we can just up and go.

Additionally, whose paying our NEC buyout. Also, I know we are nearly complete with the 2008 schedule...and I havent heard of Big South teams.

HEY...not saying this can't happen or we aren't talking, however it is not as CONCRETE as those in the know are telling you.:twocents:

Outstanding Post...this is why I like AGS! Thanks for your facts and insights.

[Libertine]

Where is the autobid coming from?


I can address this. It's apparently a little-known fact that which conferences get the autobids is determined by the NCAA, not the conferences. To this point, it hasn't really been an issue but the individual conferences do not control their own bids so it doesn't really matter where the autobid would come from. If we're talking specifics, however, the autobid would probably come at the expense of either the OVC or MEAC since both of their GPI's were lower than the Big South's last year. Add in Albany and Stony Brook and I guarantee you that GPI goes even higher.

[Dane96]

I can address this. It's apparently a little-known fact that which conferences get the autobids is determined by the NCAA, not the conferences. To this point, it hasn't really been an issue but the individual conferences do not control their own bids so it doesn't really matter where the autobid would come from. If we're talking specifics, however, the autobid would probably come at the expense of either the OVC or MEAC since both of their GPI's were lower than the Big South's last year. Add in Albany and Stony Brook and I guarantee you that GPI goes even higher.


Unless I am SORELY mistaken, the autobids are not decided by the NCAA. The NCAA merely mandates that 50% of the playoff field be autobids, which in this case is 8.

THE FCS COMMITTEE, a rotating committee, votes each year on what conferences should keep the bids. Each year conferences can apply. This has been the argument of the NEC, which is not the point of my reply. The argument is that when we applied....with the requisite number of teams playing together for the requisite years...we were denied without explanation. Conventional wisdom argued it was due to conference strength, which, for the most part is true until you compare the OVC and the MEAC. This explanation does not wash when you do so.

So instead, the NEC upped its schedule and scholarship allotment to start building what the PL did years ago.

Still, the humbug is that the committee I speak of (NOT THE NCAA) is formed of conference commissioners who would not dare take away a bid from one of their own.

This argument has been hashed ad nauseum...and many wonder if the committee would have the balls to take away an autobid from a conference.

Finally, again, unless I am mistaken, the schools must be together for MORE THAN two years. (I believe it is 6 schools for five?!)


I think you need to check your facts.

[rokamortis]

Dane - I think you are splitting hairs. The committee of ADs is NCAA sanctioned.

It takes 2 years of 6 schools to be autobid eligible. If the Big South can be stronger than 4 of the autobid conferences like they were this year then it is very reasonable to assume that the BSC will be awarded an autobid shortly after becoming eligible.

Honest question, has the NEC ever been 'stronger' than any of the autobid leagues?

[Dane96]

Honest answer....

YES!

And if you believe that the AD's on that committee are running their reasoning by Myles Brand or the NCAA prior to making their choices....I have land to sell you between two rivers in NY.

[rokamortis]

Honest answer....

YES!

And if you believe that the AD's on that committee are running their reasoning by Myles Brand or the NCAA prior to making their choices....I have land to sell you between two rivers in NY.

Which years and what were the RPI / GPI scores for each conference?

I said it was sanctioned, not that the head of the NCAA was approving every decision. That's why you have committees and such. It is called delegating authority.

[Libertine]

It takes 2 years of 6 schools to be autobid eligible. If the Big South can be stronger than 4 of the autobid conferences like they were this year then it is very reasonable to assume that the BSC will be awarded an autobid shortly after becoming eligible.


Minor/major clarification: it takes 2 years of the same 6 eligible schools for the conference to be autobid eligible. I'm not sure that the NEC has ever fit that criteria.
Secondly, as to the committee, I'm not 100% on this but I'm pretty sure that the committee is appointed by the NCAA, not by the committee itself.

I think the bigger question is this: even if Stony and Albany end up pursuing another conference opportunity somewhere else in 2014 or whenever, would you rather wait around for that opportunity to come along or take the opportunity that's in front of you right now? Even if it's only a short-term gig, it's still mutually beneficial at least in the immediate future for both the SUNY schools and the Big South.

[UAalum72]

Minor/major clarification: it takes 2 years of the same 6 eligible schools for the conference to be autobid eligible. I'm not sure that the NEC has ever fit that criteria.
The Northeast Conference has had the same six core I-AA teams since 1998. Albany has been an affiliate football member since 1999. That's makes the league eligible.

[Ol Blue]

Honestly, guys.....we know there is political manuvering on every committee ever appointed......

It's just that eventually, someone has to justify decisions in such a way that it looks feasible to everyone concerned.

That will be the main reason they expand the autobids for the playoffs rather than take them from weaker conferences.

[Dane96]

Honestly, guys.....we know there is political manuvering on every committee ever appointed......

It's just that eventually, someone has to justify decisions in such a way that it looks feasible to everyone concerned.

That will be the main reason they expand the autobids for the playoffs rather than take them from weaker conferences.


Two things:

One, the football rule, 6 for two years, is different than hoops...so I was wrong. In that instance, it would make sense to be in a league that is eligible in 2010.

Two, Ol Blue hits it on the head. The committees will always be a bit secretive...and no way they are going to pull an auto from one of the two mentione (MEAC and OVC). That being said, it is what I have championed from the start. Expansion would have to occur, IMHO, for the Big South to get an autobid.

If expansion occurred, better believe that a limited scholly NEC gets a bid. The only way that does not occur is if the rule of 5O+ rides or X $ spent on the program, passes (it has not so far).

See...this is very logical...and NOT AS CONCRETE as our Big South friends are making it.

Again, we may very well be in the Big South in 2008...but it is far from a "sign at the line" stage.

At least one fan in the Big South gets that; Thanks Old Bule.

And believe me...I wouldnt be overjoyed, but I also woudnt mind if the Danes join the Big South. It would mean we were close to adding a women's team and 63 rides.

A 63 ride Albany, with a new stadium, is possible candidate if the CAA expanded. Moreso than the Brook because of A) Hofstra (you think they want a partner right in their backyard...fighting for the limited fan base of the large LI area?) and B) Albany's OVERALL athletic program has been better than SB...and we would be the only full scholarship FCS football team from Albany to Amherst and Albany to downstate. It would be the only game in town.

[lizrdgizrd]

Two things:

One, the football rule, 6 for two years, is different than hoops...so I was wrong. In that instance, it would make sense to be in a league that is eligible in 2010.

Two, Ol Blue hits it on the head. The committees will always be a bit secretive...and no way they are going to pull an auto from one of the two mentione (MEAC and OVC). That being said, it is what I have championed from the start. Expansion would have to occur, IMHO, for the Big South to get an autobid.

If expansion occurred, better believe that a limited scholly NEC gets a bid. The only way that does not occur is if the rule of 5O+ rides or X $ spent on the program, passes (it has not so far).

See...this is very logical...and NOT AS CONCRETE as our Big South friends are making it.

Again, we may very well be in the Big South in 2008...but it is far from a "sign at the line" stage.

At least one fan in the Big South gets that; Thanks Old Bule.

And believe me...I wouldnt be overjoyed, but I also woudnt mind if the Danes join the Big South. It would mean we were close to adding a women's team and 63 rides.

A 63 ride Albany, with a new stadium, is possible candidate if the CAA expanded. Moreso than the Brook because of A) Hofstra (you think they want a partner right in their backyard...fighting for the limited fan base of the large LI area?) and B) Albany's OVERALL athletic program has been better than SB...and we would be the only full scholarship FCS football team from Albany to Amherst and Albany to downstate. It would be the only game in town.
Of course, they could just drop the autobids altogether. :eyebrow:

[andy7171]

Or asking a CAA North team to fly South 1-2 times.....;)

Why does it seem like the "South" are the only ones that get put out by the travel? Because their fans whine more?
Right. Sorry next time I will cover all the bases.:rolleyes:
Call it a CAA-South Bias.

[jessesd]

I don’t believe UAlbany and Stony Brook would go Big South, they have better plans in the Northeast (as a region), that is one of the reasons for the Stony Brook sudden shift to independent.

I read an article either on Newsday (Long Island Paper) or somewhere else that one of my Hoftsra mates sent me, (maybe two years).

The newspaper aticle talks about the possibility of an all-sports conference in the Northeast, using the Colonial conference as a springboard. I could not find the article but the issue was also repeated during the time the CAA conference announced it was going to sponsor football.
I believe the article said something in the lines of keeping the new all sports rivalries that are slowly developing in Long Island (Nassau and Suffolk) between Stony Brook and Hofstra and the rivalry between upstate and downstate between Hofstra and Albany. The article speculated this was one of the several the reasons the conference shifted from A-10 to Colonial football, then the next step was to split on BBall schools and all-sports (w/football) separate divisions while adding teams on both ends and later on end-up with two separate conferences one BBall and All-sports, ALA Big East in the near future.

It may no seem so far fetched since its been over 5 years since the large Colonial reorganization in the 2000-2001 and the 7 and 10 year agreements some of the schools signed are about to expire rather soon removing the largest brunt of penalties for reorganizations and allowing the conferences in the area to bring some new blood on board.

There are some large changes coming in the Northeast collegiate sports within the next 2 to 3 years and I can almost see it,

I’ll keep googling for the article for now.

[Dane96]

No need to google the article. It has been the on and off topic of conversation for quite some time.

The real question is...if a CAA split DID occur, which way would the football schools expand their footprint. How many schools?

[Wmbgskip]

Well, there'd be seven schools already in the group....Northeastern, Hofstra, Delaware, Towson, JMU, W&M, and ODU.

Albany and Stony Brook seem like they might be good candidates for that group....there's nine, which allows for an eight-game conference schedule (16 for basketball and 24 for baseball). While that makes a good number for football and basketball scheduling, for every other sport, that leaves a LOT of games needing to be scheduled OOC each year...so, then you'd be looking for one to three more schools that carry football in addition to all else.

--Skip

[Dane96]

And those schools could/should be, UMASS, URI, UNH, MAINE.

Oh...the old Yankee conference plus some. But that would make too much sense.

In reality, I really think JMU and ODU have their sites set on FCS down the line.

[Ruler 79]

This is a great thread so let me spread my "wisdom." First off Dane 96 is w/o a doubt the resident expert and that is a fact. Two things that I hear that makes me think that it could be happening. Lee McElroy wants a new stadium and full scholarship football to complimewnt their BB team END OF STORY. That will be his legacy.My concern was that he would bail instead of staying with UA. If he had bailed then full scholly ball probably would have died. He stayed and I will bet the farm by 2009 UA will be at 63.

1) I have been told by the highest possible sources that UA will be fully funded at 63 rides VERY soon! 2009 IMHO(coincides with a new stadium) They may have 45 in 2008 and that would be enough to compete in the Big South.

2) If the CAA/NEC full scholarship/AEF or whatever conference does not evolve The Big South would be a great alternative as opposed to going independant which IS NOT out of the question for UA. They did not want to do what SBU did but may be forced to if they have 63 rides a new house but no where to play!

[danefan]

I have to agree with Ruler here.
I would much much much rather see us in the Big South than an indy.
Its not the best fit, but its 100000% better then being independent in my eyes.

Plus, we'll get an excuse to head to Myrtle Beach and play golf every other year. That of course assumes Coastal will stay in the Big South, which the addition of Albany and SBU will help I think.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Albany and Stonybrook are in the position for a potential league with the AE. With both schools, UNH and Maine the league needs to target only two teams. Sure Umass and URI would make sense. But the AE could just as easily add CCSU should they upgrade, as well as any other northeast schools that could eventually upgrade.

As for the Big south, they are now in a position where they could forge a partnership with the remaining GWFC teams. By adding the 3 schools, the total would be 8 schools.

Charleston Southern
Coastal Carolina
Gardner-Webb
Liberty
Virginia Military
*Cal Poly
* UC Davis
* Southern Utah

Sure, travel is a bitch. But think of it this way: the 3 GWFC teams would travel for 3 of the 5 games versus the current Big South members one year, then travel for 2 games the next year.

It makes sense:
1) IF Big South gets autobid
2) Gives the GWFC schools an autobid shot (if #1 works out)
3) Big South gets to keep the conference name, branding benefits.

[Dane96]

This is a great thread so let me spread my "wisdom." First off Dane 96 is w/o a doubt the resident expert and that is a fact. Two things that I hear that makes me think that it could be happening. Lee McElroy wants a new stadium and full scholarship football to complimewnt their BB team END OF STORY. That will be his legacy.My concern was that he would bail instead of staying with UA. If he had bailed then full scholly ball probably would have died. He stayed and I will bet the farm by 2009 UA will be at 63.

1) I have been told by the highest possible sources that UA will be fully funded at 63 rides VERY soon! 2009 IMHO(coincides with a new stadium) They may have 45 in 2008 and that would be enough to compete in the Big South.

2) If the CAA/NEC full scholarship/AEF or whatever conference does not evolve The Big South would be a great alternative as opposed to going independant which IS NOT out of the question for UA. They did not want to do what SBU did but may be forced to if they have 63 rides a new house but no where to play!

Bingo...which is what I am trying to explain to these guys. IT IS NOT A DONE DEAL...but a STRONG possibility.

The scholly issue, like you point out, if we get to 45....and the NEC doesnt open it up from 30...we are gone...and the Big South is better than Indy status.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING...THE AUTOBID. There is no REASON to be in a conference without the autobid.

SO, scenerios:

1) Autobids are given out...the NEC gets one: If the NEC ups to 45 or more rides...the Danes stay. If not, they go to the Big South...or wait for a CAA/AE thing while Indy

2) Autobids ARE NOT GIVEN OUT: The Danes want to give 45 rides...the NEC does not...the DANES ARE OUT to the BIG SOUTH...even without an autobid. THE NEC ANTES UP...THE DANES STAY.


It really is pretty simple.

The biggest question mark now, and another reason this isnt a DONE DEAL...is the STADIUM.

Chancellor Ryan just announced his resignation from SUNY CENTRAL. HE WAS A HUGE PROPONENT OF THE STADIUM....and oversaw the expansion of the Naval Academy's stadium. He was a STATE OFFICIAL we had wrapped up, as he was our Interim President.

This may be a blow to our plans....we shall see.

[Libertine]

I see your points, Info, but I don't think #3 is really that much of an issue. :smiley_wi

I think that Danefan is saying the same thing from the NY side as I'm trying to say from the South side. Albany and Stony Brook have obviously both made it clear that they are serious about their football programs. So have most of the schools in the Big South. This whole thing probably isn't a perfect solution and, even if went through, it might only be for the short term. However, it is Asolution that would benefit both ends even if only temporarily.

As my granddad used to say, "Even if it's just a marriage of convenience, there's still a better than average chance of getting lucky."

[Dane96]

Albany and Stonybrook are in the position for a potential league with the AE. With both schools, UNH and Maine the league needs to target only two teams. Sure Umass and URI would make sense. But the AE could just as easily add CCSU should they upgrade, as well as any other northeast schools that could eventually upgrade.

As for the Big south, they are now in a position where they could forge a partnership with the remaining GWFC teams. By adding the 3 schools, the total would be 8 schools.

Charleston Southern
Coastal Carolina
Gardner-Webb
Liberty
Virginia Military
*Cal Poly
* UC Davis
* Southern Utah

Sure, travel is a bitch. But think of it this way: the 3 GWFC teams would travel for 3 of the 5 games versus the current Big South members one year, then travel for 2 games the next year.

It makes sense:
1) IF Big South gets autobid
2) Gives the GWFC schools an autobid shot (if #1 works out)
3) Big South gets to keep the conference name, branding benefits.



Why is everyone missing this point: IF THE NCAA DOESNT VOTE TO EXPAND THE PLAYOFFS, THUS GIVING MORE AUTOBIDS, THE BIG SOUTH ISN'T GETTING AN AUTOBID AT THE EXPENSE OF THE MEAC, OVC, or PL.

Many have speculated that will never happen...those leagues would cry bloody hell!!!

That being said, I believe the playoffs are going to be expanded...and San Diego will buck up and join the GWFC. All will be nice, the Big South will find a 6th, the Big South, The NEC, The GWFC, and most likely, in that scenerio, the PFL will all have autobid status.

There will be no need for marriages of convienence...though I agree, Albany and SBU may just take up the Big South offer for that reason...and if the things I mentioned shake out.

[lizrdgizrd]

Why is everyone missing this point: IF THE NCAA DOESNT VOTE TO EXPAND THE PLAYOFFS, THUS GIVING MORE AUTOBIDS, THE BIG SOUTH ISN'T GETTING AN AUTOBID AT THE EXPENSE OF THE MEAC, OVC, or PL.

Many have speculated that will never happen...those leagues would cry bloody hell!!!

That being said, I believe the playoffs are going to be expanded...and San Diego will buck up and join the GWFC. All will be nice, the Big South will find a 6th, the Big South, The NEC, The GWFC, and most likely, in that scenerio, the PFL will all have autobid status.

There will be no need for marriages of convienence...though I agree, Albany and SBU may just take up the Big South offer for that reason...and if the things I mentioned shake out.
For discussion of yes/no of playoff expansion, check these threads:

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18900&highlight=Playoff+Expansion
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18984&highlight=Playoff+Expansion
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18675&highlight=Playoff+Expansion

[OL FU]

I understand the importance of the playoffs and I understand the importance of the auto-bids, but I don't understand a conference picking up members that are entirely out of their footprint and that makes no sense from a long term perspective:eyebrow:

Sorry, I love the SoCon and wish we would add some football strength, but I wouldn't invite Cal-Poly just because they fit that criteria.

[danefan]

I understand the importance of the playoffs and I understand the importance of the auto-bids, but I don't understand a conference picking up members that are entirely out of their footprint and that makes no sense from a long term perspective:eyebrow:

Sorry, I love the SoCon and wish we would add some football strength, but I wouldn't invite Cal-Poly just because they fit that criteria.

Isn't the NCAA forcing team's hands though by not granting auto-bids to conferences like the NEC? Why should NEC teams be strung out in perpetuity?

[dbackjon]

I understand the importance of the playoffs and I understand the importance of the auto-bids, but I don't understand a conference picking up members that are entirely out of their footprint and that makes no sense from a long term perspective:eyebrow:

Sorry, I love the SoCon and wish we would add some football strength, but I wouldn't invite Cal-Poly just because they fit that criteria.

Albany, NY to Liberty is closer than Flagstaff is to any other Big Sky team.

Albany to Charleston is closer than all but three other Big Sky teams to Flagstaff.

You East Coasters have no sense of distance!

[OL FU]

Isn't the NCAA forcing team's hands though by not granting auto-bids to conferences like the NEC? Why should NEC teams be strung out in perpetuity?

1) The NCAA may be forcing bad actions by schools. It has always been my opinion that the rule with respect to D-I football for schools such as Davidson in the PFL is ridiculous. I use Davidson because I am very familiar with their program:nod:
2)I am not going to resurrect the NEC auto-bid debate here :eyebrow: :D
3) My point is simple. I, as a member school, would have to think long and hard about supporting such a move. I might consider other opportunities before creating such a conference in what is supposed to be cost-containment football. :twocents: Schools need to look toward the long term ( and that can be as short as 10 years) but this relationship would be a short term band -aid that might get in the way of long term progress.

I do realize my school participates in a conference that does not run a risk of losing its AQ.

[danefan]

Albany, NY to Liberty is closer than Flagstaff is to any other Big Sky team.

Albany to Charleston is closer than all but three other Big Sky teams to Flagstaff.

You East Coasters have no sense of distance!

Thats because us East Coasters have actual civilization between two locations.:smiley_wi

[OL FU]

Albany, NY to Liberty is closer than Flagstaff is to any other Big Sky team.

Albany to Charleston is closer than all but three other Big Sky teams to Flagstaff.

You East Coasters have no sense of distance!

We have the prerogative not to let it concern us:nod:

[dbackjon]

Thats because us East Coasters have actual civilization between two locations.:smiley_wi

You call Philadelphia civilization?

[danefan]

1) The NCAA may be forcing bad actions by schools. It has always been my opinion that the rule with respect to D-I football for schools such as Davidson in the PFL is ridiculous. I use Davidson because I am very familiar with their program:nod:
2)I am not going to resurrect the NEC auto-bid debate here :eyebrow: :D
3) My point is simple. I, as a member school, would have to think long and hard about supporting such a move. I might consider other opportunities before creating such a conference in what is supposed to be cost-containment football. :twocents: Schools need to look toward the long term ( and that can be as short as 10 years) but this relationship would be a short term band -aid that might get in the way of long term progress.

I do realize my school participates in a conference that does not run a risk of losing its AQ.

Its a catch 22 for some conferences, especially those affected by the "Dayton Rule". Take the NEC, (just as an example). What the NCAA says is that you have to play FCS football, but you cannot play at the highest level of FCS football. In the past it wasn't an issue, because Dayton Rule teams didn't really want to play at the highest level. But thats clearly changed now.

[OL FU]

You call Philadelphia civilization?

good point:nod:

[OL FU]

Its a catch 22 for some conferences, especially those affected by the "Dayton Rule". Take the NEC, (just as an example). What the NCAA says is that you have to play FCS football, but you cannot play at the highest level of FCS football. In the past it wasn't an issue, because Dayton Rule teams didn't really want to play at the highest level. But thats clearly changed now.

I don't know the Dayton Rule. But I assume you are talking about the NEC, Stoneybrook and others offering more equivalencies.

I agree some thing has to give, I am not sure what it is. I would rather see more AQs in the present 16 team format than expand the playoffs. I am just not for 5 or 6 week football playoffs.

[danefan]

http://www.magazine.org/editorial/40-40-covers/4.jpg

[danefan]

I don't know the Dayton Rule. But I assume you are talking about the NEC, Stoneybrook and others offering more equivalencies.

I agree some thing has to give, I am not sure what it is. I would rather see more AQs in the present 16 team format than expand the playoffs. I am just not for 5 or 6 week football playoffs.


Sorry. Dayton Rule meaning if you play Div I basketball you have to play Div I football, which encompasses the NEC, MAAC, and PFL teams.

[Ol Blue]

There have been hints about what will soon happen the next few years:

1) The name change was clearly a boost to the image of I-AA football

2) NCAA sees the need to develop the money potential of this division through lucrative tv contracts (ie. playoff interest)

3) It will also pressure schools to be more serious about being in this division and being in playoffs (scholly numbers, facilities, etc.)

Result: Schools and conferences will feel the pressure to get serious about their football programs to be in FCS or move down to lower divisions.

Probably the Dayton "rule" will be "overruled"

[OL FU]

There have been hints about what will soon happen the next few years:

1) The name change was clearly a boost to the image of I-AA football

2) NCAA sees the need to develop the money potential of this division through lucrative tv contracts (ie. playoff interest)

3) It will also pressure schools to be more serious about being in this division and being in playoffs (scholly numbers, facilities, etc.)

Result: Schools and conferences will feel the pressure to get serious about their football programs to be in FCS or move down to lower divisions.

Probably the Dayton "rule" will be "overruled"

Overrulling the Dayton rule ( now that I know what it is:o ) would be a wonderful thing. I understand not allowing schools to pick and choose which division to participate depending on the sport but if there is an exception, football is the obvious one.

[danefan]

There are exceptions in place that already work: hockey and lacrosse are the greatest examples: RPI, Union in Hockey amongst others and Johns Hopkins in lacrosse.

[OL FU]

There are exceptions in place that already work: hockey and lacrosse are the greatest examples: RPI, Union in Hockey amongst others and Johns Hopkins in lacrosse.

Exactly, that is why football should be the first exception. The most costly sport should be the easiest to allow an exception.

[CSU BUCS]

Overrulling the Dayton rule ( now that I know what it is:o ) would be a wonderful thing. I understand not allowing schools to pick and choose which division to participate depending on the sport but if there is an exception, football is the obvious one.
They just need to make D-1FCS non scholarship football its own sub-division

D-1 Bowl Championship Subdivision
D-1 Football Championship Subdivision
D-1 Non Scholarship Subdivision

D-1 BCS
D-1 FCS
D-1 NSS

[danefan]

CSU Bucs you better change those 1's to I's before Ralph bans you forever.:D :D :D

[CSU BUCS]

Yea.........I almost used a couple of A's in there too. Then I realized the AGS mafia wouldn’t like that too much.

[Fresno St. Alum]

CSU Bucs you better change those 1's to I's before Ralph bans you forever.:D :D :D
DI-AA :hurray: D-IA :hurray: Ralph says:nono: FCS, FBS, D-II?:eek:

[CCU97]

They just need to make D-1FCS non scholarship football its own sub-division

D-1 Bowl Championship Subdivision
D-1 Football Championship Subdivision
D-1 Non Scholarship Subdivision

D-1 BCS
D-1 FCS
D-1 NSS

Don't forget DI HBCU Division....if they want it to be a national championship give them a format in which they can do so...

[lizrdgizrd]

They just need to make D-1FCS non scholarship football its own sub-division

D-1 Bowl Championship Subdivision
D-1 Football Championship Subdivision
D-1 Non Scholarship Subdivision

D-1 BCS
D-1 FCS
D-1 NSS

Don't forget DI HBCU Division....if they want it to be a national championship give them a format in which they can do so...

How about:
D1-BCS
D1-FCS
D2-football exception schools
D2-every sport

Then schools that want to be D1 in everything but football can be. The HBCU championship obviously doesn't care what division of FB you play now so why would they in the future?

[GOTOREROS]

How about:
D1-BCS
D1-FCS
D2-football exception schools
D2-every sport

Then schools that want to be D1 in everything but football can be. The HBCU championship obviously doesn't care what division of FB you play now so why would they in the future?

How about you either have 85 scholarships or you're not allowed to field a football team? Sounds fair huh? Some of you amaze me with your logic...: smh :

[Ol Blue]

How about you either have 85 scholarships or you're not allowed to field a football team? Sounds fair huh? Some of you amaze me with your logic...: smh :

There's room for all level of football competition. Football is a tremendous boost to the college atmosphere, whether scholly or not.

We're all just splitting hairs to determine a "champion," which is just a minor issue. The main point is that young men are getting the chance to live out their dreams and desires on the field of competition.....period.

The bonus is we all get to waste time talking about this instead of fishing.:smiley_wi

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Why is everyone missing this point: IF THE NCAA DOESNT VOTE TO EXPAND THE PLAYOFFS, THUS GIVING MORE AUTOBIDS, THE BIG SOUTH ISN'T GETTING AN AUTOBID AT THE EXPENSE OF THE MEAC, OVC, or PL.

Many have speculated that will never happen...those leagues would cry bloody hell!!!

That being said, I believe the playoffs are going to be expanded...and San Diego will buck up and join the GWFC. All will be nice, the Big South will find a 6th, the Big South, The NEC, The GWFC, and most likely, in that scenerio, the PFL will all have autobid status.

There will be no need for marriages of convienence...though I agree, Albany and SBU may just take up the Big South offer for that reason...and if the things I mentioned shake out.

I agree. Which is why you'll see "IF" in capital letters. I didn't think I needed to explain in detial what that meant. I thought that referencing that "IF" for the second point placed enough emphasis on it.

As for expansion of the playoffs, I would think it would be best for the NCAA to wait until the CAA takes form and ODU comes into the fold. That conference would get even larger if any other CAA schools started football and the split that makes no sense now might seem like a better fit.

[lizrdgizrd]

How about you either have 85 scholarships or you're not allowed to field a football team? Sounds fair huh? Some of you amaze me with your logic...: smh :
Slow down there GOTO! Who said anything about scholarship levels? Look again at my post:


How about:
D1-BCS
D1-FCS
D2-football exception schools
D2-every sport

Then schools that want to be D1 in everything but football can be. The HBCU championship obviously doesn't care what division of FB you play now so why would they in the future?

Those schools that want to play FCS ball in addition to DI everything else have that choice. If they choose not to play in DI for football they could get an exception and play DII instead. That's why many schools are playing DI-FCS without scholarships, because they have to play DI football if they want to play DI everything else.

I'm not advocating a scholarship minimum for FCS, I'm saying that we should give those schools who would prefer to play DII football but can't (because they want to play DI everything else) the chance to do just that. I'm not one who thinks that non-scholly football can't be quality football. It's tougher to prove that you deserve to be in the playoffs if you're not playing at least one or two of the better teams in FCS as a non-scholly but it's possible in my book. :nod: