Patriot League Endorses 5-Year Strategic Plan

[Go...gate]

The Easton (PA) Express-Times has reported that on June 13-14, 2005, the Patriot League voted upon and formally endorsed a five-year strategic plan for the conference which focuses on the following goals:

1) Overall League Competitiveness;

2) Strengthening and Expanding League Membership;

3) Marketing and Branding;

4) Fiscal Integrity;

5) Academic Excellence.

This is an agressive plan with ambitious goals, and some intriguing possibilities are raised - but if you're going to reach for something, go all the way.

[ChickenMan]

The Easton (PA) Express-Times has reported that on June 13-14, 2005, the Patriot League voted upon and formally endorsed a five-year strategic plan for the conference which focuses on the following goals:



5) Academic Excellence




It's about time those guys started paying some mind to the books... :p

[TheValleyRaider]

1) Overall League Competitiveness;.

I can hear 13 now: "Football scholarships! Football scholarships!" Although, seriously, this does bode well for supporting them, and perhaps pressuring Lafayette to jump on the bandwagon.


2) Strengthening and Expanding League Membership;.

Hmm, expansion. Who is the League considering? Or perhaps the question is, who is considering the Patriot League? Bringing back Fordham? Adding Duquesne, Marist? Courting Richmond for Football?

[colgate13]

I've done enough football scholarship cheerleading but someone on the Lafayette board mentions they heard that a school brought the issue up.

Strategic plans are a good thing. Let's see some follow through now!

[Go...gate]

Chicken Man's post was great - LOL!!!!

I couldn't help noticing, either, that Academic Excellence was at the BOTTOM of the list!!!!! :confused: :eek:

[mainejeff]

#2 is very intriguing.

[DTSpider]

If #1 includes football scholarships then I imagine #2 will include invites to Villanove & Richmond.

However, just to be fair, I imagine that every conference has the same 5 goals whether or not they are formally stated.

[Fordham]

I'm assuming the report contains specific bullets underneath each of these headers that the Easton, PA article (or go...gate's post) didn't capture. That's the stuff I'd like to see, since otherwise it simply reminds me of the Simpson's "Hooray for Everything" Super Bowl 1/2 time show or hearing Ms. America give the "World Peace" answer when I see stuff as vague and non-controversial as this. With exception of #2, it'll be very difficult, imo, to objectively measure how they've performed towards these goals (sans specifics).

Scholarships would be awesome. Either way, my wish list includes seeing us as full time members again and seeing UR and 'Nova join as well (in f-ball at least).

[ngineer]

Chicken Man's post was great - LOL!!!!

I couldn't help noticing, either, that Academic Excellence was at the BOTTOM of the list!!!!! :confused: :eek:

I would say that of the five goals, that is the one that needs the LEAST focus at this time. It's already there. Needs to be maintained/upgraded as the student bodies also become more competitive. Average 1300's on the SATs for a lot of the schools means the athletic teams have to keep up as well within the formulas.

[ngineer]

If #1 includes football scholarships then I imagine #2 will include invites to Villanove & Richmond.

However, just to be fair, I imagine that every conference has the same 5 goals whether or not they are formally stated.

From what I've heard, as long as Talley is at 'nova there will be no PL membership, so long as the PL keeps the need based financial aid packages.
Richmond is much more similar academically and size-wise to the PL schools.
Also gives the Hoyas a nearby rival...

[Marcus Garvey]

The Easton (PA) Express-Times has reported that on June 13-14, 2005, the Patriot League voted upon and formally endorsed a five-year strategic plan for the conference which focuses on the following goals:

1) Overall League Competitiveness;

2) Strengthening and Expanding League Membership;

3) Marketing and Branding;

4) Fiscal Integrity;

5) Academic Excellence.

This is an agressive plan with ambitious goals, and some intriguing possibilities are raised - but if you're going to reach for something, go all the way.

I dunno... this seems pretty vague. At the end of academic year, will one of the PL member schools receive the "Montgomer Burns' Annual Award for Outstanding Acievement in the Field of Excellence?"

[blukeys]

I can hear 13 now: "Football scholarships! Football scholarships!" Although, seriously, this does bode well for supporting them, and perhaps pressuring Lafayette to jump on the bandwagon.



Hmm, expansion. Who is the League considering? Or perhaps the question is, who is considering the Patriot League? Bringing back Fordham? Adding Duquesne, Marist? Courting Richmond for Football?


If you guys implement scollies for football, the most likely candidate would be Villanova. The main objection Nova has to the PL is the lack of scollies. Y'all need to listen to 13 every now and then.

[Go...gate]

Scholarships or not, I can't see Villanova in the PL as long as Talley is there; he is openly disdainful of our conference. Richmond's admission has some legs, and I would welcome same, but what about their regional rivalries? To me, best-case scenario would be Fordham back in as full member, but there is a dedicated contingent of Fordham fans who really want to jump to the A-10/CAA in all sports, so that situation is a bit touch and go.

[Pard94]

Scholarships or not, I can't see Villanova in the PL as long as Talley is there; he is openly disdainful of our conference. Richmond's admission has some legs, and I would welcome same, but what about their regional rivalries? To me, best-case scenario would be Fordham back in as full member, but there is a dedicated contingent of Fordham fans who really want to jump to the A-10/CAA in all sports, so that situation is a bit touch and go.

...Tally is a putz. I hope that lends well to the discourse. :cool:

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Hmm, expansion. Who is the League considering? Or perhaps the question is, who is considering the Patriot League? Bringing back Fordham? Adding Duquesne, Marist? Courting Richmond for Football?

Look at the original statement: strengthening and expanding membership. In my mind (and this is one nut's opinion) that means pursuing another all-sport school instead of landing another associate member. IMVHO, that means going after Richmond, Villanova, or even strenthening Fordham is not it. Fordham and Villanova seem very content with their current situations, and don't seem inclined to change. Richmond's alumns basically had a mutiny over possibly joining the PL last year. Duquesne too would be an associate. To me, "expanding membership" doesn't mean "having Villanova or Duquense play in the Patriot League for football". It means "getting an all-sport member in there, including a new basketball team or 2". What none of these post have mentioned is that on the PL website this announcement is buried underneath the larger announcement that the PL will be changing its basketball schedule to play midweek games again (a Wednesday and Saturday schedule), ostensibly to make it easier for - oh, ESPN on a "Bubble Buster" weekday - to schedule Bucknell to play, say, Notre Dame. With Bucknell winning in the NCAA tournament, the Patriot League has been concentrating on developing basketball. IMVHO, football is a distant second here, and these "goals" apply to football, sure, but basketball primarily.

There could be a Marist looking to jump conferences out of the MAAC (Marist is the only one I can think of that might do so), but the MAAC is already D-I in basketball, so it's debatable what they would achieve by this. IMVHO more likely I think that the PL would be looking at a D-II or D-III school that may want to make the jump to D-I basketball (and possibly D-I-AA in football).
Permit me to speculate on possible candidates.

For D-II, the best schools I could come up with is CW Post or a good PSAC school (Lock Haven, West Chester, IUP, Kutztown), but I think any of those schools would be a terrible reach as none are private institutions.

In the D-III landscape some possiblities include Farleigh Dickinson (which is already D-I basketball), Amherst, Williams, Gettysburg, Johns Hopkins, and Franklin & Marshall. They are all private institutions that are all great fits for the PL but I have no idea what their interest level is. What I do know is it would probably be "basketball first, football second".

Personally? Knowing absolutely nothing about either program, I'd love to see Amherst and Williams both join the PL together. You'd have 3 of the best rivalries ever (Army/Navy, Lehigh/Lafayette, Amherst/Willams) all in the same league (in basketball anyway, but 2 would also be in football). Would Richmond or Villanova be good additions? I am not sure they are. Richmond's commitment to football seems mismanaged at best, suspect at worst. As to Villanova, what do they really add to the PL? They play locally, but haven't bothered to develop any rivalries with PL schools. Their facility has to make you wonder how dedicated they are to football as well.

[DFW HOYA]

Personally? Knowing absolutely nothing about either program, I'd love to see Amherst and Williams both join the PL together. You'd have 3 of the best rivalries ever (Army/Navy, Lehigh/Lafayette, Amherst/Willams) all in the same league (in basketball anyway, but 2 would also be in football). .

No way Amherst and Williams leave the NESCAC.


Would Richmond or Villanova be good additions? I am not sure they are. Richmond's commitment to football seems mismanaged at best, suspect at worst. As to Villanova, what do they really add to the PL? They play locally, but haven't bothered to develop any rivalries with PL schools. Their facility has to make you wonder how dedicated they are to football as well.

Villanova Stadium isn't Goodman, but it's not that bad, either.

I don't see how the PL can expect to bring in any more full members right now. Short of getting American to add FB, there aren't a lot of options out there.

[TheValleyRaider]

Look at the original statement: strengthening and expanding membership. In my mind (and this is one nut's opinion) that means pursuing another all-sport school instead of landing another associate member.
I think you could take that statement slightly differently. Strengthening membership could mean continuing to weed out the associate members, or recruiting a school like Fordham heavily to rejoin, making them an all-sport school. I see what you're saying about them being comfortable where they are, but that doesn't mean the League isn't going to try and persuade them otherwise. I know the Fordham backers have quoted the current president as being happy in the PL for football, but I wonder if maybe he would like them back there for other sports too. In general, there really aren't too many other programs out there that fit the PL model that are searching for the kind of home the League has to offer. If we assume that the League is taking some concrete action to fulfill these plain statements, then it's fair to assume, I would think, that they have some targets in mind.


There could be a Marist looking to jump conferences out of the MAAC (Marist is the only one I can think of that might do so), but the MAAC is already D-I in basketball, so it's debatable what they would achieve by this.
Marist fits the profile of the MAAC nicely, so the only reason I could think of for them to move to the PL would be because they're attempting to raise their profile as a strong academic school. However, I'd guess they're more than 5 years away from making that jump.



Permit me to speculate on possible candidates.

In the D-III landscape some possiblities include Farleigh Dickinson (which is already D-I basketball), Amherst, Williams, Gettysburg, Johns Hopkins, and Franklin & Marshall. They are all private institutions that are all great fits for the PL but I have no idea what their interest level is. What I do know is it would probably be "basketball first, football second".

Personally? Knowing absolutely nothing about either program, I'd love to see Amherst and Williams both join the PL together.
While speculation is all fun and good, I don't see any of the D-III schools you mentioned moving anywhere. The kinds of D-III schools that the PL would be interested in are the kinds of schools that really want very little to do with D-I athletics (Johns Hopkins Lax being the notable exception). Especially Amherst and Williams. DFW is right; they're not going anywhere.

[ngineer]

Maybe one of the current A-10's from the northeast is planning to jump rather than join in the new CAA conference?? Hofstra? They have been doing a lot of upgrades in academics and campus. Their wrestling program was top 10--a nice tie in with Lehigh, plus they are a private school...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Hofstra was denied PL membership before? I'm not sure how good a match they are academically.

Is the idea that Amherst and Williams are militantly against D-I? Or is there a different reason? I am curious, since (as previously stated) I know little to nothing about either program's goals or ambitions.

As I'm rereading things, another intriguing possibility is Farleigh Dickinson. Again, I know nothing about their football program aside from the fact that they're D-III and they have D-I basketball. Are they looking to upgrade in all sports, including football? If so, may be a good fit competitively, if not academically. They are also awfully close to Lehigh, Lafayette, Fordham...

[kardplayer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Hofstra was denied PL membership before? I'm not sure how good a match they are academically.

Is the idea that Amherst and Williams are militantly against D-I? Or is there a different reason? I am curious, since (as previously stated) I know little to nothing about either program's goals or ambitions.

As I'm rereading things, another intriguing possibility is Farleigh Dickinson. Again, I know nothing about their football program aside from the fact that they're D-III and they have D-I basketball. Are they looking to upgrade in all sports, including football? If so, may be a good fit competitively, if not academically. They are also awfully close to Lehigh, Lafayette, Fordham...

Farleigh Dickenson, are you kidding? They are not an academic match at all. There's a better chance of Cedar Crest* joining the Patriot League.

* For those non-Lehigh alum out there, Cedar Crest is an all women's school that is a short, frequently made, drive from Lehigh

[Dane96]

FDU academics suck; they are not even in the realm of PL standards. CW Post is private, as in CW POST-LONG ISLAND UNIVERSITY. Terrible academics as well.

[JoltinJoe]

I think you could take that statement slightly differently. Strengthening membership could mean continuing to weed out the associate members, or recruiting a school like Fordham heavily to rejoin, making them an all-sport school. I see what you're saying about them being comfortable where they are, but that doesn't mean the League isn't going to try and persuade them otherwise. I know the Fordham backers have quoted the current president as being happy in the PL for football, but I wonder if maybe he would like them back there for other sports too. In general, there really aren't too many other programs out there that fit the PL model that are searching for the kind of home the League has to offer. If we assume that the League is taking some concrete action to fulfill these plain statements, then it's fair to assume, I would think, that they have some targets in mind.


Marist fits the profile of the MAAC nicely, so the only reason I could think of for them to move to the PL would be because they're attempting to raise their profile as a strong academic school. However, I'd guess they're more than 5 years away from making that jump.


I don't see "weeding" out the associate football members as an option. That would mean dropping Fordham and Georgetown, and leaving the football conference with five members. So who do you replace them with? Davidson? They already left the Patriot League years ago. Marist? Perhaps an option, but not with its current football budget and facility. Is Marist willing to spend the $3 million a year necessary to compete in the PL? Duquense? The Dukes would have to significantly increase its commitment to football, spend more, and improve its facility, while moving its other athletic programs from the A-10 to the PL. That's not likely to sit well with the Duquense alumni and supporters, for whom basketball is a way of life. And let's be honest: the schools that are potential replacements for Fordham and Georgetown don't have the same reputation or standing, and their names don't resonate as strongly with the public. I don't see how "weeding" out two nationally prominent universities, and replacing them with lower visibility schools, "strengthens" the conference.

As for whether Fordham would return as a full member, I doubt that is going to happen. Fordham pleaded years ago to allow basketball scholarships, before taking its basketball and other programs to the A-10. The conference turned it down. Funny that within ten years, basketball scholarships became the norm in the PL. Maybe what we had here was just a bad case of timing. Anyway, after years of frustration, Fordham is finally finding its footing in the very competitive world of A-10 basketball. A post-season bid, at least NIT, is very likely this year. I can't see Fordham doing another 180 at this point. It has commited itself to the A-10, and the current coach who has resurrected the program and become a red-hot coaching prospect in the process -- Dereck Whittenburg -- isn't likely to stay in the Bronx if a conference change were made.

[colgate13]

LFN - I have to rain on your FDU parade here. Fairleigh Dickinson is kind of a unique school set up. They are actually two separate campuses. The Division I campus is located in Teaneck, NJ. They play Division I basketball (and other sports). The Division III campus is in Madison, NJ. They play football. The two campuses are pretty darn separate when it comes to athletics. They just recently unified their color schemes, logos, etc. but they are two separate departments with two separate A.D.s, etc. (and for those of you scoring at home: shameless Colgate plug alert! The D-III A.D. is a Colgate grad! :) )

To play the what-if game, the FDU campus that makes sense is the D-III campus in Madison. But they would have light years to travel before they could consider a Division I move. It's a nice little program that has grown from nothing (the school was only started in the 50s I think). They were actually pretty competitive in the mid-90s in D-III football.

Their academics ain't PL right now and it's very much a commuter school. Now, if some donor stepped it, gave $200 million dollars and upgraded their athletic facilities, increased their academic profile, etc. we could talk. FDU has about 30 years before they could ever consider D-I - unless they have some campus merge in mind but they're not right next to each other.

I don't think D-III moving up would have potential for anyone except Hopkins. They've had to have looked at it already because of the D-III vote on the grandfathered clause. Maybe they looked at it and decided if D-III voted them out, they'd upgrade everything and go D-I and try for the PL. Maybe after being allowed to stay D-III, they've continued to talk about what being D-I means and that as a top research institution, they would like to be D-I for image sake?

My short list would be:

Fordham back as a full member.
Richmond with football scholarships
Johns Hopkins moving up
G'Town and Nova as full members in a Big East shake up.

[89Hen]

Short of getting American to add FB
:eek: :eek: :eek: They'll be lucky to keep basketball.

[Marcus Garvey]

I have two names to throw out there for PL Membership (all-sport), though it would be bloody unlikely. Both are D-III:

Johns Hopkins: They fit the PL profile (small, private, national profile), but I sincerely doubt they'd have any interest in D-I athletics except for their renowned lacrosse program. They don't really fit in with the rest of their league, the Centennial Conference. The rest of the schools in the CC are liberal arts colleges all significantly smaller than JHU.

Widener University: Frankly, Widener is getting "too big" for D-III. They are currently about about 2,300 undergrads and growing. They recently established an engineering college (not very common for D-III Schools) and a Law school. They have crossed over from "liberal arts college" to "national university." Their athletic department is one of the best in all of D-III. However, their academics pale in comparison the PL.

But I think, in the end, there are no schools currently available to the PL.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Fairleigh Dickinson is kind of a unique school set up. They are actually two separate campuses. The Division I campus is located in Teaneck, NJ. They play Division I basketball (and other sports). The Division III campus is in Madison, NJ. They play football. The two campuses are pretty darn separate when it comes to athletics. They just recently unified their color schemes, logos, etc. but they are two separate departments with two separate A.D.s, etc....

...

I don't think D-III moving up would have potential for anyone except Hopkins. They've had to have looked at it already because of the D-III vote on the grandfathered clause. Maybe they looked at it and decided if D-III voted them out, they'd upgrade everything and go D-I and try for the PL. Maybe after being allowed to stay D-III, they've continued to talk about what being D-I means and that as a top research institution, they would like to be D-I for image sake?

My short list would be:

Fordham back as a full member.
Richmond with football scholarships
Johns Hopkins moving up
G'Town and Nova as full members in a Big East shake up.

Boy, if those are our options for expansion or change, that's pretty sad! Might as well add to the list:

Penn leaves Ivy League, join PL as full member
Army and Navy downgrade football from I-A, join PL as full members

Almost all of these have about the same chance of happening as Alec Baldwin becoming our next president.

That FDU situation is really strange. By having 2 campuses, they allow themselves the option of having D-I sports programs and a D-III sports programs at the same time. For state schools I could see it (especially if you want multiple successful basketball programs, like UNC, UNC-Charlotte and UNC-Wilmington), but for a (relatively) small private institution that's strange. If academics aren't in the ballpark, however, it's not a good fit.

Johns Hopkins no doubt are a great fit academically, and would have a ready-made football rival in Georgetown and basketball rivals in Navy and American. (And what a better PL fit than Towson!) But I have no idea what their facilities are. Again I feel like basketball would be the driving factor, not football.

I also don't think "weeding out" associate members G'town and Fordham are part of this either. The PL is dependent on both to have a viable football conference, and I think although football may not be the primary goal, the PL does value football quite highly. The PL needs Fordham and G'town.

You do bring up an interesting thought about Villanova and G'town becoming full members in a Big East shakeup. This *could* happen if the Big East insists that all its members have I-A football teams. I don't think, however, this is very likely. I do know that Nova and G'Town would fight it tooth and nail. I also think the Big East knows the value of having the history of Georgetown and Villanova in their basketball conference.

And if there is even a whiff of damaging their basketball brand, IMO they will never do it. Basketball is their #1 priority - that's easy to prove. They let Virginia Tech, Miami, and Boston College go - three great college football teams but marginal basketball teams. To replace them, they got Cinncinnati, Louisville, and South Florida - two legendary college basketball teams and three so-so football programs.

[Fordham]

nice discussion here, imo. I agree with those stating that it's very tough to find a school that matches from a size, academic and commitment to athletics standpoint. I just hope the PL doesn't settle on a 2 (or 1) out of 3 ain't bad strategy in an effort to grow.

LFN, I agree that b-ball is huge (and primary) for the BE, but would argue that they backed into that strategy as the best available option after getting caught flat footed by Miami's move to the ACC (then followed by others) v. it being a pro-active "b-ball 1st" strategy that has been playing out (as I think your post implies). Side-note, as a PSU fan, I wish one of JoePa's last moves would have been to right the wrong move he advocated by bringing PSU back into the BE. Won't happen now that they've made it more of a b-ball league, but my guess is that the BE would have preferred a swap out of Miami for PSU to be able to maintain their top notch f-ball presence. My other guess is that they made a "name your price" offer to ND to try to get them to bring f-ball into the fold as well (which is even less likely than PSU abandoning the B10, imo). I wonder, though, about ND's BE ties now that these diverse schools have been added.

*Also, JJoe is dead-on, imo, that nothing will happen with Fordham in the near term (read: as long as Whittenburg is still there which hopefully will be for a long time but could be very short if we have a great b-ball year in '05/06.

*Any D-IA (nod to ralph) programs that may "upgrade" to playoff f-ball and fit the bill (can't think of any but figured I'd mention it)?

*Any chance of a BU revival (ha!)? From a b-ball perspective, what about ar MAAC school like Siena, Loyola (MD), LaSalle, Marist, Canisius, et. al.?

[Go...gate]

I've always thought Gettysburg would be a good fit. They are a former rival of Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell from the Mid-Atlantic days, have a good D-III basketball program (I believe they beat Navy last year and are one of Navy's most-played rivals in BB and a frequent opponent in other sports), it is a fine school academically and has good facilities, though some of same could stand an upgrade. Dickinson, VMI, Washington & Jefferson and Washington & Lee are also possibilities, IMO.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I've always thought Gettysburg would be a good fit. They are a former rival of Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell from the Mid-Atlantic days, have a good D-III basketball program (I believe they beat Navy last year and are one of Navy's most-played rivals in BB and a frequent opponent in other sports), it is a fine school academically and has good facilities, though some of same could stand an upgrade. Dickinson, VMI, Washington & Jefferson and Washington & Lee are also possibilities, IMO.

VMI from the Big South? Not sure you meant that (since they're D-I), but still a way interesting thought!

* Would arguably be an upgrade in football
* Greater association with Army & Navy in most sports (Navy is a common opponent), and also plays other Patriot schools in football and other sports
* Probably a lateral basketball move

Those are a few compelling reasons to think that they may be thinking Patriot.............

Gettysburg is definitely a good fit should they want to upgrade, I agree.

[Ken_Z]

initial observations on the strategic plan:

academics
- other initiatives are not to be at the expense of academics
- academics can be improved. witness Bucknell basketball scholarships. improved talent, increased competitive position and better academic profile have all been achieved in the first three scholarship classes.

marketing and branding
- this is not a trivial statement to include this in the plan. while nearly all who post on athletic boards are in favor of strong athletic programs and see value in them, that is not universally true in the academic world. the plan was approved by our presidents. President Mitchell has stated that Bucknell needs to do a better job of branding (not an athletics specific statement), but realizes he will face opposition to some elements of this from the faculty. he is, however, ready to fight the fight as he sees it as best for the school.

overall league competitveness
- this is both internal and external.
- internally: Navy has brought more of their sports into the fold in recent years. HC is commiting more resources to 'olympic' sports. Lafayette will be on board with basketball scholarships within one year (okay, that is just a prediction).
- externally: the stated objective is to obtain higher NCAA seedings which provides a greater opportunity for success in post-season play (basketball, lacrosse and soccer should all be able to compete well). basketball should continue to strengthen and move into the upper half (perhaps upper quartile)of the mid-major world. (note: the PL is already well ahead of the Big South for the VMI comment above).

expanding membership
- the preference is all sports membership. however, football is not going to run off our two current affiliates.
- as folks are concluding above, i don't think we should expect big changes in the near term. if the other objectives are achieved, four years from now, some schools that currently look down on the PL may well be wishing for membership.

apologies for being so verbose in my first foray onto your board.

[colgate13]

apologies for being so verbose in my first foray onto your board.

OMG! Ladies and gentleman, Bucknell has entered the building!
Welcome, welcome, welcome Ken! The Patriot League is now fully complete and represented by every school in the conference! :hurray::hurray::hurray::hurray:

Don't be a stranger! :)

[colgate13]

- as folks are concluding above, i don't think we should expect big changes in the near term. if the other objectives are achieved, four years from now, some schools that currently look down on the PL may well be wishing for membership.

Very good point Ken. I think that the PL is moving on up in the world. Perhaps after several good years of strong efforts, a school like Richmond won't be too upset to think that the PL is the place for their football team or, dare I say, more?

[Go...gate]

LFN, I do think VMI or the Citadel would be a good fit for the Patriot League, because of size considerations. I'm also assuming that their academic profile is akin to those of other service academies.

[LUHawker]

I think the PL is making the right kind of plans. While these objectives are most likely purposefully general in nature, they do establish a framework for addressing a number of underlying currents that are or will affect the league in the next few years. I also can't help but think that Richmond football issue exposed some areas for improvement in strengthening the league. Finally, with respect to membership, now may not be the right time for any changes, but I think it is forward thinking to have the PL in the right place to take advantage of changes down the road.

[Fordham]

KEN KEN KEN KEN KEN KEN KEN!!!!


RAAAAAH! KEN!

welcome aboard Bucknell!

[ngineer]

Alright--a man from da' "Bubble"--my daughter is a BU grad so I know all the little nicknames that go with your territory... ;) Welcome aboard!

[ngineer]

Upon reviewing this interesting discussion, I would tend to lean toward Gettysburg--they have definitely become a 'hot' school on the hs recruitment circuit when it comes to academics, and their athletic program has always been competitive. They were a regular rival of Bucknell, Lehigh and Lafayette back in the 1940-early 1970's--by then they could not compete anymore witnessed some ugly blowouts. But if they want to upgrade their total image and become a bigger fish, then the move makes sense.
As for my Hofstra comment, I do recall they applied or inquired about membership a few years ago, but that was then, and if they have improved and upgraded their act, then maybe they'll get a second look.
Another excellent D-III that could consider the move might be Franklin & Marshall. Strong academics--their pool of prospectives are similar to Bucknell, Lehigh and Lafayette. Strong athletic tradition in football and wrestling..
The easiest move is for Navy and Army to join in football, since they are already PL in just about everything else. But the Brass will never let that happen.

[LetsGoNova]

Interesting thread here, folks. Here are my two cents.

Villanova would/should be interested in joining a full-schollie PL. We have a long-term contract with Lehigh and are playing a home-and-home with Bucknell as we speak, so I doubt whoever accused Talley of being anti-PL in general. The schools in the PL fit in well with Villanova geographically, there are some ready-made rivalries (G-town, Lehigh), and the academic/student body profiles overlap to a great extent.

As for Big East football, I believe that there will be a split of the I-A and I-AA/I-AAA schools in five years time. At that time, one of three things happens:

1) Villanova joins with the other I-AA/I-AAA schools in a new conference with hoops as the big-time sports. With G-town, St. Johns, Seton Hall, Marquette, Depaul, Providence, Notre Dame, etc. this isn't a bad alternative. Football stays I-AA in whatever conference it is in.

2) The I-A BE schools keep two or three of the I-AA/I-AAA schools to retain media markets and bolster basketball. Villanova would be a strong candidate for this based upon market size, b-ball strength and overall sports program strength vs. the other non I-A schools.

3) Villanova steps up and goes I-A. Not likely unless Temple goes under and frees up the Linc AND some unknown donor ponies up big money. Not likely at this juncture.

Therefore, I-AA seems to be our home for the forseeable future, and I love the idea of the PL for football. We can continue to play Delaware (aka the only game our fanbase cares about) OOC.

[blukeys]

Interesting thread here, folks. Here are my two cents.

Villanova would/should be interested in joining a full-schollie PL. We have a long-term contract with Lehigh and are playing a home-and-home with Bucknell as we speak, so I doubt whoever accused Talley of being anti-PL in general. The schools in the PL fit in well with Villanova geographically, there are some ready-made rivalries (G-town, Lehigh), and the academic/student body profiles overlap to a great extent.........

Therefore, I-AA seems to be our home for the forseeable future, and I love the idea of the PL for football. We can continue to play Delaware (aka the only game our fanbase cares about) OOC.

Thanks for agreeing with my point LetsgoNova. I think Nova will first wait and see for the first few years of CAA management of the new league. Can the CAA raise the brand name of the conference and improve the overall visibility of its football product? If Nova sees the CAA as helping it's football product then it will stay. If Nova sees no benefit or is dissatisfied with the CAA then they will go elsewhere.

If Nova goes to any other league, it will not end the rivalry with UD. But could it remain the last game of the season? One would hope.

[blukeys]

(and for those of you scoring at home: shameless Colgate plug alert! The D-III A.D. is a Colgate grad! :) )



Duly noted and scored. I had noticed no Colgate plugs for a few days and was concerned that you were running a fever or had some personal problems that were consuming your attention. glad to see all is well.

[henfan]

...Take Richmond... please. http://wiredforbooks.org/images/HennyYoungman2.jpg

Actually, VMI (for all sports) and Richmond (as a FB affiliate) together might work for the PL.

[Go...gate]

I'm the one who made the comment about Talley, and the statements were made by him in the Philadelphia media over the past several years, such as Comcast Sports Net and the Philadelphia Inquirer on more than one occasion. I'm sorry that I don't have links available, but I saw them with my own eyes. The tone of his comments have continually been that Villanova "aims higher" than the PL in the scope of its program and that the PL is in effect a high mid-major conference.

He was especially uncharitable about Colgate before the 1997 Villanova-Colgate play-off game, questioning the PL's inclusion in the tournament (not afterwards, however - we gave you guys a hell of a game), and treated Fordham similarly when Villanova was playing Fordham on a year-to-year basis. Perhaps he has recently been told to tone down his rhetoric by the Villanova Athletic Director because he does not speak for Villanova, and if so that is the right thing to do. Bottom line is that Villanova is a great university and I would be pleased to see them in the PL for football.

[LetsGoNova]

Well, I agree with him as far as wanting to aim higher than the PL - AS IT IS CURRENTLY CONSTITUTED, and especially in comparison to where the PL stood a few years or a decade back. I would never support Villanova moving to the PL without full scholarships.

[Pard94]

Interesting thread here, folks. Here are my two cents.

Villanova would/should be interested in joining a full-schollie PL. We have a long-term contract with Lehigh and are playing a home-and-home with Bucknell as we speak, so I doubt whoever accused Talley of being anti-PL in general. The schools in the PL fit in well with Villanova geographically, there are some ready-made rivalries (G-town, Lehigh), and the academic/student body profiles overlap to a great extent.

As for Big East football, I believe that there will be a split of the I-A and I-AA/I-AAA schools in five years time. At that time, one of three things happens:

1) Villanova joins with the other I-AA/I-AAA schools in a new conference with hoops as the big-time sports. With G-town, St. Johns, Seton Hall, Marquette, Depaul, Providence, Notre Dame, etc. this isn't a bad alternative. Football stays I-AA in whatever conference it is in.

2) The I-A BE schools keep two or three of the I-AA/I-AAA schools to retain media markets and bolster basketball. Villanova would be a strong candidate for this based upon market size, b-ball strength and overall sports program strength vs. the other non I-A schools.

3) Villanova steps up and goes I-A. Not likely unless Temple goes under and frees up the Linc AND some unknown donor ponies up big money. Not likely at this juncture.

Therefore, I-AA seems to be our home for the forseeable future, and I love the idea of the PL for football. We can continue to play Delaware (aka the only game our fanbase cares about) OOC.

...As that would require a very serious overhaul of their facilities. And given the already tight land constrictions on the Main Line, I doubt they could pull it off. Not without spending millions of dollars. And this for a program that draws minimal student interest (granted that would probably change with a move up) . Regardless, I don't think you're gonna get the students down to Philly on a regular basis to watch games at the Linc.

Oh and Talley is a putz.

[ngineer]

'Nova will never go I-A. How soon they forget. They couldn't cut it 25 years ago and dropped the sport cold turkey when they couldn't cut it any longer. The return via a down-sized program in the mid-80's is where they recognized they belong.

[MU Alum]

This is an interesting post and as far as FDU or Franklin & Marshal are concerned, I cant see either being anywhere near that level.
Jons Hopkins is def. interesting with along with Widener from the D-III field due to strong academics.

No one has looked at possible NEC schools, if there is a shake-up in I-AA with Albany and Stony Brook leaving the conference. Monmouth and Wagner are two possible teams that could make the move from the NEC to Patriot. Monmouth is a private university with enrollment around 6,000 located on the Jersey shore. As far as basketball goes I think the NEC and Patriot are about the same level and football could make that jump. There is a new basketball arena and facility upgrade that has been floated around for the last 10 years, but seems serious now, especially with our athletics success recently. MU would also give the Patriot League stronger footing the Jersey Football talent pool and market and could serve as a rival to Princeton, I know how those Patriots like the Ivy rivalry.

Wagner Univ. is located Staten Island, not sure of enrollment but also a private university. The campus, like MU is very nice and they recently had a facility upgrade with a new basketball arena and weightroom and all that. The major hurdle for both of these schools would seem to be ACADEMICS. Not pos. about Wagner but I know MU would have to step up admissions. Both schools seem as possible fits. This is all just speculating b.s. though.

[MU Alum]

Having just seen that Monmouth is scheduled for a home and home with Lafayette upcoming and I know there was an article in the Asbury Park Press during the season about a possible conference switch, does anyone in the Patriot League see this as a possible addition.

[Go...gate]

You are also at Colgate in '06; don't know about the return match in NJ but I would like to see it. How big is Monmouth now in terms of students?

[MU Alum]

Around 4,500 undergrads; 6,000 with all included I believe, but could be alittle off. Is it posted somewhere on the Colgate game in 06?

[Go...gate]

It's on the Colgate FB Web page under "Future Schedules".

[LUHawker]

Having just seen that Monmouth is scheduled for a home and home with Lafayette upcoming and I know there was an article in the Asbury Park Press during the season about a possible conference switch, does anyone in the Patriot League see this as a possible addition.

No. Monmouth does not fit the academic profile of the Patriot League and therefore would not be a logical fit. It appears to want to improve its football program, but I don't see a move to the PL.

[ChickenMan]

Monmouth is on the Delaware schedule @ the Tub... in '08... :eek:

[MU Alum]

No. Monmouth does not fit the academic profile of the Patriot League and therefore would not be a logical fit. It appears to want to improve its football program, but I don't see a move to the PL.

yeah, I said that in a previous post that I thought the main hurdle to a move into the Patriot would be academics. Sometimes it actually helps us, as bad as that sounds, in recruiting because we get kids that are good enough for the Patriot, but just dont have the grades whatsoever. I know MU has been raising admission standards over the past 4 years, but there is still a ways to go. Does anyone know how long a process like that truly takes.

[MU Alum]

Monmouth is on the Delaware schedule @ the Tub... in '08... :eek:
Thats pretty exciting to hear, I think the Delaware program is one of the best in I-AA and it would be great exposure for Monmouth.

[colgate13]

Does anyone know how long a process like that truly takes.

Oh for Colgate, about 186 years (http://www.colgate.edu/DesktopDefault1.aspx?tabid=498&pgID=1210). :)

Seriously though, the average age of a football playing PL school is 150 years. Lehigh is the "youngster" at 140. Even American, who doesn't play football, is 112 years old.

[maacfb]

it definitely takes a while to increase those standards. I know marist has done a great job of making admissions tougher but changing the reputation of the school is what takes decades imo

[Go...gate]

The key thing is that Monmouth is moving in that direction. If they keep it up, things will take care of themselves.

[maacfb]

Go..Gate Monmouth will improve their football program long before they come close to being as academically competitive as the PL schools. they have a very nice campus in a good location but the caliber of students from my HS who wound up there was at the very least unimpressive. you've got princeton, rutgers, and the college of NJ in state that all have a better rep. its going to be tough for them to get the better students to attend

[colgate13]

it definitely takes a while to increase those standards. I know marist has done a great job of making admissions tougher but changing the reputation of the school is what takes decades imo

Exactamundo. Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither was the perception that Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. are the best schools in the world. These things take generations...

[blukeys]

Monmouth is on the Delaware schedule @ the Tub... in '08... :eek:

If the PSAC coaches go on strike Monmouth could arrive at the Tub 3 years early. :eek: :eek:

[Go...gate]

I agree, maacfb and Colgate 13, but you fellows also need to understand that Monmouth has come a hell of a long way in less than 50 years. I see them long-term as another Rider University or Hofstra University, which have substantially built up their academic profile since the 1970's. Will this happen in a couple years? I don't believe so - you need lots of elbow grease, money, successful graduates and heavy-duty marketing. But Monmouth definitely is on the right track and I congratulate their leadership in making the decision to raise the profile of the school. They have a lot going for them - location being only one aspect.

[maacfb]

long term getting to a Rider/Hofstra status as an academic institution is still far away from where you need to be to be considered for PL membership. I think the days of Towson type institutions in the PL are gone

[colgate13]

long term getting to a Rider/Hofstra status as an academic institution is still far away from where you need to be to be considered for PL membership. I think the days of Towson type institutions in the PL are gone

Right on there. That experiment was not a success. The next member of the PL will have to bring some academic profile with them to be considered for membership.

More power to Monmouth and I wish them success, but their long term PL plan better be about 40 years plus.

[maacfb]

colgate13,

I agree with you. Im a big proponent of my alma mater (marist) trying to make the jump but I do realize that funding would need to be increased dramatically in football which I dont see happening plus the schools rep still needs to improve before they are close to being lumped in with the academics of the PL.

[Ken_Z]

i think Marist would be a reasonably good candidate for the PL in all sports if both the ability and willingness to commit the necessary financial resources to football existed. the academic profile may not be perfect, but it is not so dramatically out of line to pose a competitve problem. the school also seems commited to a well rounded athletic program which also aligns better with the PL schools philosophies, whereas many of the MAAC schools focus almost exclusively on basketball.

[maacfb]

I think they would be a good not great addition on an all sports basis only. obviously at this point they dont bring much from a football perspective but men's/womens bball would immediatelty compete for conference titles (perhaps a bit of a stretch with mens btu I think Brady will get the job done), dont know much about PL baseball but I know Marist has a very good team and would do well, same thing for mens/womens swimming dont know much about the PL but the programs at Marist are top notch, lax is certainly improving but would have some struggles in the PL imo.

[Go...gate]

What I meant about Monmouth, Rider and Hofstra (who the PL already rejected in the mid 90's) is not that they will join the PL but that they will be good, respected regional (NY/Phila Metro) opponents for the PL in FB and BB. None of these schools should be lightly regarded; they are simply new schools. For many years, Rider was in the ECC with American, Bucknell, Lafayette, Lehigh and Saint Joseph's and has played Penn, Princeton, and Harvard in BB in recent years. Monmouth plays home and home with Princeton in BB every year, plays Penn this year and plays Rutgers and Columbia periodically. Only Hofstra eschews playing against the PL, but that will change over time, I'm sure.

The point is that it is great to play the Ivy, SoCon and A10 all the time but it is problematic from a scheduling, financial and travel standpoint. It's good to have a couple of opponents which are a one-or two-hour bus ride away.

[MU Alum]

I am excited about the trip up to Colgate, it will be a real measuring stick of how the program is moving along. I know we always looked forward to Patriot League match-ups.

[ngineer]

I am excited about the trip up to Colgate, it will be a real measuring stick of how the program is moving along. I know we always looked forward to Patriot League match-ups.

Not looking forward to September 3? ;)

[MU Alum]

Definetly looking forward to Sept. 3 :) , I was just overlooking Lehigh in preparation for Colgate in 06 ;)