Patriot League: The New Realities: Part II

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Part II is published.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

[DFW HOYA]

Good work but as a Hoya fan I just can't figure where Georgetown would fit in to any of this. Most recruits are not choosing between a UDel or a James Madison vs. paying their way at Georgetown.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

DFW, but you are competing against a Harvard/Yale/Princeton academically... and for football, I think you are also competing against FBS and FCS schools. Maybe not New Hampshire, Rutgers and UConn, but yes against Delaware, Maryland and Duke. The names might be different (and yes, my piece was written with Lehigh in mind), but the issues to me are the same. :twocents:

[RichH2]

As usual you set the scene for the AI war expertly.

I think I understand how the AI impacts on recruiting inside the PL with a decreasing pool of qualifiable students who can excel at our level but realistically how does it impact vis a vis the Ivies. Are the AI floors set using the same or similar frameworks? The league I believe sets the AI for Ivies. The PL does not. What does that actually mean for each school. Is the PL system enforceable or voluntary, relying on the overall academic requirements of each school? Are there bands as in the IVy or just an overall average?

[Fordham]

good questions, rich.

another question is what loopholes may be in place? One I've heard of is the ability to use merit scholarships as a means to get around some of the need based aid issues.

[Go...gate]

Nice work, LFN.

[carney2]

Sorry. I couldn't concentrate. I was drooling over the thought of donuts.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This is where I miss colgate13. He'd have a nice picture of Homer Simpson handy!

http://www.myteespot.com/images/thumbs/t_6004.jpg

[LeopardFan04]

nice work LFN...

[ngineer]

Nice article Chuck--I'm waiting with baited breath for next week! Your donut analogy is good, though some may say you should take a 'powder';) :D

[Tribe4SF]

Seems the conclusion is pretty simple....offer scholarships and don't compromise academic standards. The only thing you change is what kind of aid is offered.

I really don't see what the big deal is here. You already offer scholarships in other sports, and no one is going to allow Lehigh to compromise its academics. Only question should be whether you have the money.

The "most selective" schools will always have higher standards for student-athletes, governed by the academic profile of the student body, and the diversity of curricular offerings. Some "most selective" schools will have departments and majors available which will allow for a slightly lower floor, but on the whole we're all in the same boat.

It's also rather strange to have this doomsday scenario presented in light of the raving in other threads about the quality of Lehigh's recruiting class. Sure you had to travel some to find guys, but so do the rest of us, scholarships or not.

[DFW HOYA]

I really don't see what the big deal is here. You already offer scholarships in other sports, and no one is going to allow Lehigh to compromise its academics. Only question should be whether you have the money.

Ah, money.... :bang:

Seriously, I agree there is a middle ground and I look forward to reading part three.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Ah, money.... :bang:

Seriously, I agree there is a middle ground and I look forward to reading part three.

Thanks DFW. And point well taken that I may be a bit too Leh/Laf centric when writing this, and not taking into consideration G'Town (or Fordham) issues with the AI. Personally I think each institution is affected in different ways by this since all the institutions are so different.

Associate, "more selective":
Fordham

Associate, "most selective":
G'Town

Full member and "more selective":
Holy Cross

Full member, "most selective", larger institution:
Lehigh

Full member, "most selective", smaller institution:
Lafayette

Full member, "most selective", mid-sized instituiton:
Colgate, Bucknell

I never thought about the differences between all our institutions, but there really is a subtle difference between all the members.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

...

The "most selective" schools will always have higher standards for student-athletes, governed by the academic profile of the student body, and the diversity of curricular offerings. Some "most selective" schools will have departments and majors available which will allow for a slightly lower floor, but on the whole we're all in the same boat.

It's also rather strange to have this doomsday scenario presented in light of the raving in other threads about the quality of Lehigh's recruiting class. Sure you had to travel some to find guys, but so do the rest of us, scholarships or not.

The "most selective" schools haven't always meant higher standards for student-athletes in all sports - men's basketball being Exhibit A for that. However, in football what you say is generally true. Then again, if a new coach wanted to get a kid with 800 combined SAT's who can bench-press 600 lbs, what would stop him?

That's a fair point about the strange affair where on the one hand we praise the incoming class yet talk about the system being strained. But a lot of folks (PL brass included) are concerned after the sudden rash of losses to the Ivy and NEC (the PL has gone as far as to hire a consultant to study it). It's more a reaction of the 6-5 co-champions' records than one specific class.

[Tribe4SF]

Then again, if a new coach wanted to get a kid with 800 combined SAT's who can bench-press 600 lbs, what would stop him?

.

I assume your admissions office would stop him. Of course if he was inclined to do that, Lehigh would never hire him in the first place.

There's no mystery to "most selectives" having scholarships. The evidence of success at W&M, Richmond, Furman and others is well documented. The comparisons for PL members are appropriate at all levels of AIs.

If I were you guys, I would launch the campaign with written endorsement from an organized alumni group laying out a plan, and citing the comparable institutions with experience. Your third installment could become the plan. Once you get your President on board, he can lead the discussion among member schools.

[Lehigh74]

Once you get your President on board, he can lead the discussion among member schools.

Lehigh's new President is a she.xlolx

[Tribe4SF]

Lehigh's new President is a she.xlolx

All the better! More persuasive.:smiley_wi

[LBPop]

Ah, money.... :bang:

Seriously, I agree there is a middle ground and I look forward to reading part three.

I agree. Of course I am biased, but I think Georgetown's potential is tremendous. Since moving up to the Patriot League, the Hoyas have struggled to pick up wins and pick up dollars. If they can break through on either side of that equation, the other side will follow. Given what I perceive to be a clear ambivalence on the part of the Administration, I think the team is just going to have to win inspite of the dollars. That will be tough with this year's schedule. If this year isn't the breakthrough, I hope the University will hang in there. The potential upside at Georgetown is very real.

[TheValleyRaider]

Associate, "more selective":
Fordham

Associate, "most selective":
G'Town

Full member and "more selective":
Holy Cross

Full member, "most selective", larger institution:
Lehigh

Full member, "most selective", smaller institution:
Lafayette

Full member, "most selective", mid-sized instituiton:
Colgate, Bucknell

We're 'mid-sized'? :eyebrow:

[Fordham]

We're 'mid-sized'? :eyebrow:
Lehigh must be more well-endowed.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

We're 'mid-sized'? :eyebrow:

This was based on undergraduate enrollment, not on athletic budget. Sorry, that wasn't clear in my post.

Although, I think Bucknell and Colgate have similar spending on athletics, no?

[TheValleyRaider]

This was based on undergraduate enrollment, not on athletic budget. Sorry, that wasn't clear in my post.

Although, I think Bucknell and Colgate have similar spending on athletics, no?

I was referring to school size. I wouldn't have thought of 2,800 as 'mid-sized'. I know Lafayette is smaller than we are, but I never thought of Colgate as anything more than a 'small' school. That's just me. I'm don't know Bucknell's population to comment, and I'm sure our spending is similar.

[ngineer]

Lehigh must be more well-endowed.

In the eye of the beholder. I know we have a lot of 'busts' on campus...;)

[DFW HOYA]

As it relates to funding of football programs in I-AA/FCS, here is where the Patriot League schools rank in terms of expenses:

4. Fordham
8. Colgate
13. Lehigh
15. Lafayette
...
24. Holy Cross
34. Bucknell
68. Georgetown

[carney2]

As it relates to funding of football programs in I-AA/FCS, here is where the Patriot League schools rank in terms of expenses:

4. Fordham
8. Colgate
13. Lehigh
15. Lafayette
...
24. Holy Cross
34. Bucknell
68. Georgetown

Are you defining "expenses" as "football spendng?" Regardless, it should be pointed out that there is no standard for accumulating this information, and all of this should be taken with one huge block of salt. Still, the ranking/order does not look terribly out of line. I guess that I would question Holy Cross being ahead of (spending more than) anyone but Georgetown, but this looks pretty realistic to me.

[DFW HOYA]

Are you defining "expenses" as "football spendng?" Regardless, it should be pointed out that there is no standard for accumulating this information, and all of this should be taken with one huge block of salt. Still, the ranking/order does not look terribly out of line. I guess that I would question Holy Cross being ahead of (spending more than) anyone but Georgetown, but this looks pretty realistic to me.

Football expenses per the EADA reports. The site also allows you to pull information by various categories, including the entire subdivision.

http://www.ope.ed.gov/athletics/InstList.asp

[Fordham]

As it relates to funding of football programs in I-AA/FCS, here is where the Patriot League schools rank in terms of expenses:

4. Fordham
8. Colgate
13. Lehigh
15. Lafayette
...
24. Holy Cross
34. Bucknell
68. Georgetown

how do you get Fordham as 4th? I did a quick search and found considerably higher budgets for Montana, Hofstra, JMU & Delaware and I'm assuming there would be alot more there given that those first few I checked all had higher numbers.

[DFW HOYA]

how do you get Fordham as 4th? I did a quick search and found considerably higher budgets for Montana, Hofstra, JMU & Delaware and I'm assuming there would be alot more there given that those first few I checked all had higher numbers.

This was from the EADA link above, where you can aggregate data for institutions. According to that query, the top 10 in the 2005 season (latest information posted) were:

1. James Madison University ($4,208,133)
2. University of Montana ($4,094,482)
3. Liberty University ($4,029,066)
4. Fordham University ($3,898,156)
5. University of Delaware ($3,890,595)
6. Villanova University ($3,791,955)
7. University of Richmond ($3,658,117)
8. Colgate University ($3,628,807)
9. Hofstra University ($3,602,055)
10. Furman University ($3,526,568)

[Pard4Life]

Not sure I buy your "sucking-sound" at Rutgers and UConn. It is not more crowded at our recruiting level if you are talking about those two. Rutgers is competing in a different athletic market. Rutgers is now getting players who are from the northeast who would have gone to other power schools, or good schools like Iowa, Purdue, Syracuse etc. They are now staying home. Lafayette and Lehigh hardly had a shot at these players to begin with. The 'sucking' sound I hear is at Monmouth, Albany, and CCSU, and Stony Brook.