Augustana SD discussing moving to D1, possibly joining Pioneer

[JacksFan40]

Been seeing discussion about this on both SDSUFans and the USD board. Augustana in Sioux Falls reportedly will recieve a 150 million dollar donation from Sanford, not sure if Denny or the company, and will move all sports to D1. I've put this on the FCS discussion board as they'd be going non-scholly for football and joining the Pioneer.
link to the SDSU forum http://sdsufans.com/board/showthread.php?15388-Augie-to-the-Summit
Link to USD forum http://usdcoyotesports.proboards.com/thread/2319/wanting-augustana-summit
This is probably just Sioux Falls reporters making this rumor up, they'd love to have a D1 school down there.

[nodak651]

Been seeing discussion about this on both SDSUFans and the USD board. Augustana in Sioux Falls reportedly will recieve a 150 million dollar donation from Sanford, not sure if Denny or the company, and will move all sports to D1. I've put this on the FCS discussion board as they'd be going non-scholly for football and joining the Pioneer.
link to the SDSU forum http://sdsufans.com/board/showthread.php?15388-Augie-to-the-Summit
Link to USD forum http://usdcoyotesports.proboards.com/thread/2319/wanting-augustana-summit
This is probably just Sioux Falls reporters making this rumor up, they'd love to have a D1 school down there.

Gross. Don't see how this would benefit any of the Dakotas.

[JacksFan40]

Gross. Don't see how this would benefit any of the Dakotas.
It's just for the Sioux Falls people who want a D1 team in Sioux Falls.

[BisonFan02]

.........no.

NCC 2.0....time for NDSU to go if this happens.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOXkT107x2E&

[jacksfan29]

.........no.

NCC 2.0....time for NDSU to go if this happens.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOXkT107x2E&

SDSU better be right by your side. No interest in this happening.

As for the Sanford rumor, so far, it seems to be just a message board rumor which started at 100 million and has now been raised to 150 million.

[clenz]

I laid my thoughts out in another thread but I’ll sum it up here.

The last thing SD, ND, MN, IA, WI, MO, IL and KS need is another D1 school. Football status doesn’t matter. This population base is already vastly over saturated


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[Laker]

I think it would be a huge mistake for Augie to go D1. But suddenly there sure is a lot of talk about it.

[Model Citizen]

SDSU fans seem to think that by denying Augustana an invitation to the Summit, they can keep them out of D-I altogether.

I would say that if Augustana wants to move up, the Summit won't be their only choice. The WAC would take them in a Fargo minute.

[doolittledog]

There is no talk of Augustana moving to D1 on the D2 board. Which would seem to be a more likely place to find information about a possible move by them than on SDSU or USD messageboards.

[BEAR]

I think the other Dakota schools would have about as much say as SLC schools did with HBU and other schools moving up...amiright?

[Professor Chaos]

If Augie has a baseball team I'd be all for them moving up and joining the Summit League.

[JacksFan40]

If Augie has a baseball team I'd be all for them moving up and joining the Summit League.
Augie does have a baseball team, and a pretty good one, they're currently 24-1 so not bad.

[TennBison]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this the same school that could not manage to keep afloat in their DII days and dropped down. Now they want to go DI??????

[doolittledog]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this the same school that could not manage to keep afloat in their DII days and dropped down. Now they want to go DI??????

You're thinking of Morningside in Sioux City. They dropped from D2 down to the NAIA.

[Professor Chaos]

Augie does have a baseball team, and a pretty good one, they're currently 24-1 so not bad.
It would stabilize the conference in that case adding a baseball program so the SL wouldn't have to worry about losing the auto in all sports if they drop below the 6 baseball programs they have currently. Augie also fits right into the geographic footprint of the SL. Considering that I don't think Fort Wayne (and their baseball program) will be around much longer it would also ensure that the SL maintains at least a 16 game conference basketball schedule (or the ideal 18 games for as long as Fort Wayne would be around).

I wouldn't be thrilled about the NCC 2.0 part of it either but it would further stabilize the Summit League. I'm sure the SD schools would be staunchly opposed to it given their ties to the Sioux Falls market but almost everyone else in the conference would benefit.

Of course that's all from the non-football POV. Football I don't think it does much of anything except give the northern/western MVFC schools a cupcake OOC game if they want it.

[jacksfan29]

SDSU fans seem to think that by denying Augustana an invitation to the Summit, they can keep them out of D-I altogether.

I would say that if Augustana wants to move up, the Summit won't be their only choice. The WAC would take them in a Fargo minute.

And they are welcome to go to the WAC. Of course, a school with 2,000 students, private (no state funding), who studied the issue before and found they could not afford the move, can now afford to fly to LasCruces, Phoenix, Seattle, Salt Lake City... The only shot that school has in surviving is in the Summit League and PFL. And they can't afford that. This is a really bad idea, driven by the egos of some Sioux Falls businessmen with money who see the success of the SLT and SDSU and want a piece of the pie. South Dakota cannot support 3 D1 schools and have them all succeed. It is a crazy, idiotic, stupid idea.

[Thumper 76]

Barf. That is all. SDSU better be ACTIVE about looking for a new home if this were to happen.


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[Professor Chaos]

And they are welcome to go to the WAC. Of course, a school with 2,000 students, private (no state funding), who studied the issue before and found they could not afford the move, can now afford to fly to LasCruces, Phoenix, Seattle, Salt Lake City... The only shot that school has in surviving is in the Summit League and PFL. And they can't afford that. This is a really bad idea, driven by the egos of some Sioux Falls businessmen with money who see the success of the SLT and SDSU and want a piece of the pie. South Dakota cannot support 3 D1 schools and have them all succeed. It is a crazy, idiotic, stupid idea.
So let them dig their own grave then. Like you said they're a private university so it's not like they're raiding the state's coffers if they fail.

Just be honest... you don't care about how well or poorly positioned they are to succeed in D1, you just don't want that extra competition in SDSU's #1 market for fans/alumni. I don't blame you. I'd have similar feelings if Minnesota State-Moorhead would announce intentions to move D1 and try to join the Summit League.

[TennBison]

You're thinking of Morningside in Sioux City. They dropped from D2 down to the NAIA.
Thanks for the info, that is a bit before my time as a NDSU fan.

[jacksfan29]

What they are raiding is corporate dollars. I have no fear of fans, SDSU has 40,000 alumni in the state, Augustana 7,000. SDSU has long had a strong following, the SLT, with 11,000 in the stands is 70% blue for a reason. That isn't going to change. We had Augustana in the NCC for decades and they were nobody. That really won't change much if they move up. What will change, corporate dollars will be more difficult to come by for SDSU, more importantly for USD. That hurts the Summit. We need the two large state schools in South Dakota to be healthy.

SDSU's athletic budget is now over $20 million. It is expected to be $25 million within the next two years. USD have grown more slowly. It is growing, but it topped out at $15 million last year. Augustana will need major corporate money to go D1. Where does it come from?

My other issue. I don't want to go back to the old NCC. I'm fine with the big schools in SD and ND, plus Omaha is a great market. Augustana feels like we are going to soon bring back Morningside, St. Cloud and Mankato. Heck, if we are going to consider Augustana why not Northern State?

SDSU and NDSU have moved on. We are both much bigger, much more successful and both worked our asses off to get where we are this early in our D1 days. We built the Summit up. The last addition was UND, before that DU. Those are D1 schools and both are great additions. If the Summit is now going to return to being a D2 call up league, for schools with 2,000 students who will struggle to survive? I'd rather move on again.


So let them dig their own grave then. Like you said they're a private university so it's not like they're raiding the state's coffers if they fail.

Just be honest... you don't care about how well or poorly positioned they are to succeed in D1, you just don't want that extra competition in SDSU's #1 market for fans/alumni. I don't blame you. I'd have similar feelings if Minnesota State-Moorhead would announce intentions to move D1 and try to join the Summit League.

[IBleedYellow]

Time to figure out how to make FBS work.

SDSU, you guys are forward thinkers, ready to dump the UxD's again?

[nodak651]

No fbs league wants you.

[JacksFan40]

Time to figure out how to make FBS work.

SDSU, you guys are forward thinkers, ready to dump the UxD's again?
The MWC truly isn’t a bad conference if an FBS move happened, though I doubt NDSU would go it solo, they’d move if SDSU tags along.

[TheKingpin28]

The MWC truly isn’t a bad conference if an FBS move happened, though I doubt NDSU would go it solo, they’d move if SDSU tags along.I can get behind no more GFCC but everyone knows that the State of North Dakota would prevent that from happening again.

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[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Get another cupcake regional team for football if they go Pioneer.

Why not just go D1 hockey for them? NSIC teams are already D1 hockey. Neither USD or SDSU have it.

[WestCoastAggie]

No fbs league wants you.

The MAC???

[cx500d]

.........no.

NCC 2.0....time for NDSU to go if this happens.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOXkT107x2E&

I was at that game; it was cold.


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[mmiller_34]

No fbs league wants you.

We’d make our own.

Go FBS independent with NDSU, MSU, UM, Idaho, UNI, EWU, NMSU, Missouri State and work out a scheduling alliance.

Denny Sanford will fund it all.

[nodak651]

We’d make our own.

Go FBS independent with NDSU, MSU, UM, Idaho, UNI, EWU, NMSU, Missouri State and work out a scheduling alliance.

Denny Sanford will fund it all.

Don't forget Augustana.

[BisonFan02]

If Augie has a baseball team I'd be all for them moving up and joining the Summit League.


Augie does have a baseball team, and a pretty good one, they're currently 24-1 so not bad.

Time to add the University of Jamestown. Better baseball.

[BisonFan02]

The FBS thing is moot. UND and USD will never be left behind again.

[IBleedYellow]

The FBS thing is moot. UND and USD will never be left behind again.

Not by their choice. Their incompetent leadership can't fail them again.

[Bisonator]

Tell them to drop FB and put their resources into BB and I'd consider it. Would be a good fit for the Summit. They wouldn't be any worse then a UMKC, plus they have baseball.

[dgtw]

If Augie has a baseball team I'd be all for them moving up and joining the Summit League.

I get that having six puts you in a precarious situation, but I’d rather have six than seven.

Six teams means you don’t have to find a non-conference series for someone every week. Plus you can play a full home/home round robin schedule in ten weeks.


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[Professor Chaos]

I get that having six puts you in a precarious situation, but I’d rather have six than seven.

Six teams means you don’t have to find a non-conference series for someone every week. Plus you can play a full home/home round robin schedule in ten weeks.


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True, it would be even better if they could get another baseball program to get to 8 but if/when Fort Wayne leaves the Summit League they'd be down a baseball program again. Adding one more school to the Summit League would also get them back to an even number (10) for basketball to make basketball scheduling much better and easier (that is until Fort Wayne leaves).

[Thumper 76]

Time to figure out how to make FBS work.

SDSU, you guys are forward thinkers, ready to dump the UxD's again?

No thanks. I’m all in on anywhere other than the Summit though.


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[F'N Hawks]

On the surface and remembering how the NCC days went, I would strenuously object to adding the Augie Doggies.

Once we dip down to the Augie/Cloud/Kato world we might as well start openly questioning why the hell we left the NCC.

[IBleedYellow]

On the surface and remembering how the NCC days went, I would strenuously object to adding the Augie Doggies.

Once we dip down to the Augie/Cloud/Kato world we might as well start openly questioning why the hell we left the NCC.

At that point, we didn't leave the NCC, minus the name.

[F'N Hawks]

At that point, we didn't leave the NCC, minus the name.

Wut?

[dgtw]

True, it would be even better if they could get another baseball program to get to 8 but if/when Fort Wayne leaves the Summit League they'd be down a baseball program again. Adding one more school to the Summit League would also get them back to an even number (10) for basketball to make basketball scheduling much better and easier (that is until Fort Wayne leaves).

Where is Ft. Wayne going?


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[jacksfan29]

True, it would be even better if they could get another baseball program to get to 8 but if/when Fort Wayne leaves the Summit League they'd be down a baseball program again. Adding one more school to the Summit League would also get them back to an even number (10) for basketball to make basketball scheduling much better and easier (that is until Fort Wayne leaves).

IPFW has no where to go. The Horizon league is not expanding for now, and they have already told IPFW no if they do expand. If they do leave, we go poach UNC baseball from the WAC.

If the Summit votes to add Augustana it is time to get out. That said, I have a hard time believing Augustana could get a unanimous vote of entry into the league. If they want D1, send them to the WAC.

[Professor Chaos]

Where is Ft. Wayne going?


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Wherever the first viable train on the conference realignment railroad takes them. I think ideally they'd like to join the Horizon League along with former fellow eastern Summit League brethren Oakland and IUPUI. They're now all alone out east in the Summit League with Western Illinois being the closest conference school to them. Their basketball coach has voiced some displeasure about how the conference has shifted west over the last 10 years or so. I'd assume there's more within their AD that feel the same.

[jacksfan29]

MVC may be looking for a 12th to go with Murray. We have an average RPI of 90 over the past 6 years, if the MVC are looking to bring in quality, both SDSU and Murray would bring up the league RPI. Maybe Sell needs to get on the phone with his friends at UNI and see if it is even possible.


No thanks. I’m all in on anywhere other than the Summit though.


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[DFW HOYA]

Who knew Pioneer League expansion would bring out such discord? xlolx

[clenz]

MVC may be looking for a 12th to go with Murray. We have an average RPI of 90 over the past 6 years, if the MVC are looking to bring in quality, both SDSU and Murray would bring up the league RPI. Maybe Sell needs to get on the phone with his friends at UNI and see if it is even possible.

At this point most at UNI would take SDSU. I am one of them. I’ve told thumper that more a few times through our texting). However the league office and other other presidents within the league have made it clear that any expansion, if there is any (I’m starting to have my doubts), is going to be east and potentially slightly south. The chances the Valley ever goes west of its current footprint is very, very, very, very low. The names I’m hearing that would potentially get considered and enough support would be teams that wouldn’t join for teams that don’t bring enough to warrant expanding for the sake of expanding - MUSU, NKU, SLU, Belmont, etc.


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[mmiller_34]

At this point most at UNI would take SDSU. I am one of them. I’ve told thumper that more a few times through our texting). However the league office and other other presidents within the league have made it clear that any expansion, if there is any (I’m starting to have my doubts), is going to be east and potentially slightly south. The chances the Valley ever goes west of its current footprint is very, very, very, very low. The names I’m hearing that would potentially get considered and enough support would be teams that wouldn’t join for teams that don’t bring enough to warrant expanding for the sake of expanding - MUSU, NKU, SLU, Belmont, etc.


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I am just asking out of curiosity because I literally have no clue.

What would UNI fans enjoy more, a basketball game vs SDSU or NDSU.. or a basketball game vs Belmont or NKU (or even Evansville or Loyola CHI — although I’m sure a game with L-CHI is a bit more interesting now.)

From SDSU perspective I’m sure games with UNI/ISU(r)/Missouri State would draw better than games vs IPFW/ORU/or Denver. Its weird, I like half of the Summit League and I like half of the MVC and just wish those two parts could link up.

[clenz]

No one likes Evansville. There is less than 0 excitement for those games as they currently stand.

Belmont SLU and Murray would have pretty significant excitement.

NKU would be above Evansville but below most others. On par with isub.

SDSU player in cedar falls a year and a half ago. It was meh. Would be behind everyone but ISUB Evansville and maybe Loyola for conference games. I say maybe because I don’t know what this year will do moving forward. They have about 75 fans and have been pretty bad before this year.

So in terms of rivals with that list plus conference teams

Drake
SLU
SIU
ISUr
MOSU
MUSU
Bradley
Valpo - because of twitter I could see this one becoming a real thing and being higher
NKU
SDSU
NDSU
Loyola
ISUB
Evansville

Would that grow over time with SDSU? Maybe. But as of today that is where is rank SDSU for the average to above average “in-depth” basketball fan.

Outside of dealing with Lakes, and the trolls one week a year UNI fans couldn’t give a damn less about NDSU, especially the basketball program.

UNI basketball fans are smarter than UNI football fans when it comes to understanding rivalries and what not. NDSU doesn’t matter that that fan base.


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[uni88]

No one likes Evansville. There is less than 0 excitement for those games as they currently stand.

Belmont SLU and Murray would have pretty significant excitement.

NKU would be above Evansville but below most others. On par with isub.

SDSU player in cedar falls a year and a half ago. It was meh. Would be behind everyone but ISUB Evansville and maybe Loyola for conference games. I say maybe because I don’t know what this year will do moving forward. They have about 75 fans and have been pretty bad before this year.

So in terms of rivals with that list plus conference teams

Drake
SLU
SIU
ISUr
MOSU
MUSU
Bradley
Valpo - because of twitter I could see this one becoming a real thing and being higher
NKU
SDSU
NDSU
Loyola
ISUB
Evansville

Would that grow over time with SDSU? Maybe. But as of today that is where is rank SDSU for the average to above average “in-depth” basketball fan.

Outside of dealing with Lakes, and the trolls one week a year UNI fans couldn’t give a damn less about NDSU, especially the basketball program.

UNI basketball fans are smarter than UNI football fans when it comes to understanding rivalries and what not. NDSU doesn’t matter that that fan base.

SLU isn't happening. Murray and/or Belmont are the best options. Loyola might not be a big draw in CF but UNI played them several times in Chicago over the 20+ years before they joined the Valley for a reason - it's a draw for both Chicago area recruits and alumni. Moving the needle at home is important but moving the needle on the road can have value too.

Are the other Valley schools leery of adding SDSU because they're worried they'll wait a few years and then ask if their little (basketball) brothers from Fargo can join?

[JacksFan40]

SLU isn't happening. Murray and/or Belmont are the best options. Loyola might not be a big draw in CF but UNI played them several times in Chicago over the 20+ years before they joined the Valley for a reason - it's a draw for both Chicago area recruits and alumni. Moving the needle at home is important but moving the needle on the road can have value too.

Are the other Valley schools leery of adding SDSU because they're worried they'll wait a few years and then ask if their little (basketball) brothers from Fargo can join?
SDSU wouldn’t wait a couple years to add NDSU, it’ll likely be either both go or neither. SDSU would be an outcast in the MVC without NDSU.

[clenz]

Are the other Valley schools leery of adding SDSU because they're worried they'll wait a few years and then ask if their little (basketball) brothers from Fargo can join?

The issue is they are a public school with football. I realize that so is Murray but Murray clearly prioritizes basketball. While SDSU might be a “basketball school” similar to UNI and ISUr it’s far less apparent than it is at UNI and ISUr. That’s worrisome for presidents that don’t have football or want football centric schools in the conference.

The second does have to do with NDSU - the the UxD schools. Those schools clearly don’t prioritize basketball like the MVC wants. They don’t have any history if sustained success. They don’t have the ability to raise the profile of the conference.

The strong fear is that SDSU can’t separate from those other 3 due to political pressures. I, and many others, can’t imagine the state of SD ever letting SDSU split from USD again like they did in 03 at the start of the transition. I, many, also have a hard time seeing them being able to split from NDSU due to the bond formed from moving D1 together. NDSU and UND have the same political issues that SDSU and usd would face now that they are finally together again.


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[BisonFan02]

NDSU is a land grant football school and does not belong in the MVC. Period.

[Thumper 76]

The issue is they are a public school with football. I realize that so is Murray but Murray clearly prioritizes basketball. While SDSU might be a “basketball school” similar to UNI and ISUr it’s far less apparent than it is at UNI and ISUr. That’s worrisome for presidents that don’t have football or want football centric schools in the conference.

The second does have to do with NDSU - the the UxD schools. Those schools clearly don’t prioritize basketball like the MVC wants. They don’t have any history if sustained success. They don’t have the ability to raise the profile of the conference.

The strong fear is that SDSU can’t separate from those other 3 due to political pressures. I, and many others, can’t imagine the state of SD ever letting SDSU split from USD again like they did in 03 at the start of the transition. I, many, also have a hard time seeing them being able to split from NDSU due to the bond formed from moving D1 together. NDSU and UND have the same political issues that SDSU and usd would face now that they are finally together again.


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That is a real fear. Especially the USD thing. Personally I don’t see the difference if we just schedule a home and away game in the OOC with them. Plus if Augie moves up then they can have a rival they can beat at the SLT while not worrying about SDSU fans unfairly buying all the good seats on them. The **** for ndsu fans would throw if SDSU went the the MVC without them would be legendary. Like, to the point I would worry about flashing my SDSU gear around Fargo for a bit.


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[Bison Fan in NW MN]

That is a real fear. Especially the USD thing. Personally I don’t see the difference if we just schedule a home and away game in the OOC with them. Plus if Augie moves up then they can have a rival they can beat at the SLT while not worrying about SDSU fans unfairly buying all the good seats on them. The **** for ndsu fans would throw if SDSU went the the MVC without them would be legendary. Like, to the point I would worry about flashing my SDSU gear around Fargo for a bit.


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For me, not much of a BB fan, it wouldn't matter much at all if SDSU left the Summit. Sure the Bison BB fans would probably piss and moan but there are significantly more FB fans than BB fans in Bisonation.

NDSU BB, both men's and especially woman's, need new coaches IMO.

[F'N Hawks]

For me, not much of a BB fan, it wouldn't matter much at all if SDSU left the Summit. Sure the Bison BB fans would probably piss and moan but there are significantly more FB fans than BB fans in Bisonation.

NDSU BB, both men's and especially woman's, need new coaches IMO.

Sounds like the Nodaks are in line for FOUR new coaches then. Both of our programs need fresh blood.

[BisonFan02]

That is a real fear. Especially the USD thing. Personally I don’t see the difference if we just schedule a home and away game in the OOC with them. Plus if Augie moves up then they can have a rival they can beat at the SLT while not worrying about SDSU fans unfairly buying all the good seats on them. The **** for ndsu fans would throw if SDSU went the the MVC without them would be legendary. Like, to the point I would worry about flashing my SDSU gear around Fargo for a bit.


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I think you are overestimating how much of a **** the average fan gives.

[ST_Lawson]

Wherever the first viable train on the conference realignment railroad takes them. I think ideally they'd like to join the Horizon League along with former fellow eastern Summit League brethren Oakland and IUPUI. They're now all alone out east in the Summit League with Western Illinois being the closest conference school to them. Their basketball coach has voiced some displeasure about how the conference has shifted west over the last 10 years or so. I'd assume there's more within their AD that feel the same.

Honestly, I think the more likely possibility is that they move down a division.

On July 1, 2018, the two universities will part company in Fort Wayne. The health sciences programs on the campus will become Indiana University Fort Wayne, and the other programs will become Purdue University Fort Wayne. The athletics program will remain the Fort Wayne Mastodons, but will represent only Purdue Fort Wayne.

I could easily see Purdue deciding that the new Purdue-Fort Wayne (PFW?) is a better fit with their other Purdue-only university, Purdue Northwest. PNW plays DII in the GLIAC conference, consisting entirely of schools in Indiana, Ohio, and Michigan (although they're going to be adding UW-Parkside). Being in northeastern Indiana, PFW is smack-dab in the middle of the GLIAC footprint, so they would save a TON on travel in addition to the regular cost savings from moving down to DII and dropping some scholarships.

[Professor Chaos]

That is a real fear. Especially the USD thing. Personally I don’t see the difference if we just schedule a home and away game in the OOC with them. Plus if Augie moves up then they can have a rival they can beat at the SLT while not worrying about SDSU fans unfairly buying all the good seats on them. The **** for ndsu fans would throw if SDSU went the the MVC without them would be legendary. Like, to the point I would worry about flashing my SDSU gear around Fargo for a bit.


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I think you are overestimating how much of a **** the average fan gives.
The basketball fan base at NDSU is an odd animal. Certain parts of it hold the basketball program(s) to the same standard they hold the football program to. Those parts of the fan base are usually filled with angry people. Other parts of it understand that NDSU isn't and never will be a "basketball school" so expectations are significantly lower than they are for the football team. I'm in the latter group.

SDSU has basketball support, both institutionally and from fans/alumni, that I wish NDSU had. I'd wager to say that most level-headed SDSU people feel the same about NDSU football. Hence if SDSU would make a conference move for basketball reasons without NDSU it wouldn't surprise me because SDSU is a more attractive option if you look at basketball only. Similarly, it wouldn't be surprising if NDSU made a conference move without SDSU for football reasons. That's just where each school's priorities lie.

I think it's unlikely either moves without the other but at this point both are established as high quality mid-major D1 athletic programs so if they have the opportunity to make a unilateral move that helps themselves in the long run they should take it.

[BisonFan02]

The basketball fan base at NDSU is an odd animal. Certain parts of it hold the basketball program(s) to the same standard they hold the football program to. Those parts of the fan base are usually filled with angry people. Other parts of it understand that NDSU isn't and never will be a "basketball school" so expectations are significantly lower than they are for the football team. I'm in the latter group.

SDSU has basketball support, both institutionally and from fans/alumni, that I wish NDSU had. I'd wager to say that most level-headed SDSU people feel the same about NDSU football. Hence if SDSU would make a conference move for basketball reasons without NDSU it wouldn't surprise me because SDSU is a more attractive option if you look at basketball only. Similarly, it wouldn't be surprising if NDSU made a conference move without SDSU for football reasons. That's just where each school's priorities lie.

I think it's unlikely either moves without the other but at this point both are established as high quality mid-major D1 athletic programs so if they have the opportunity to make a unilateral move that helps themselves in the long run they should take it.

The "core four" are at the hip....its safe. That being said. UND should go back to D2 with Duluth, St. Cloud and Mankato....it won't happen, but it would make sense.

[F'N Hawks]

The "core four" are at the hip....its safe. That being said. UND should go back to D2 with Duluth, St. Cloud and Mankato....it won't happen, but it would make sense.

Would totally make sense. Expand a bit on that idea and see if it takes hold.

[BisonFan02]

Would totally make sense. Expand a bit on that idea and see if it takes hold.

Peer hockey schools.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Cloud_State_University

Don't give me the size argument either....only difference is SCSU is even more dismissive of football than UND.

UND going D2 would allow for 1 true D1 football team in the state....maybe even an FBS one a la Wyoming. ;)

[F'N Hawks]

Peer hockey schools.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Cloud_State_University

Don't give me the size argument either....only difference is SCSU is even more dismissive of football than UND.

Without a doubt. You're a thinker - go with it.

[BisonFan02]

Without a doubt. You're a thinker - go with it.

I just did. Congrats to UMD winning the "D1" hockey natty.

[jacksfan29]

NDSU is a land grant football school and does not belong in the MVC. Period.

This comment makes no sense. There are a lot of Land Grants in this country. SDSU is a Land Grant, Montana State, U of Idaho, NMSU, Colorado State, Texas A&M, NC A&T, Cornell, Ohio State, U of M... You get the picture. Heck, Prairie View A&M is a Land Grant. The schools come in all sizes and form and belong to a variety of athletic leagues. There are a lot of reason NDSU (and yes, SDSU) will likely never be in the MVC, being Land Grant Universities has nothing to do with it.

[IBleedYellow]

Wut?

At that point we didn't leave the North Central Conference in anyway except for the name.

[BisonFan02]

This comment makes no sense. There are a lot of Land Grants in this country. SDSU is a Land Grant, Montana State, U of Idaho, NMSU, Colorado State, Texas A&M, NC A&T, Cornell, Ohio State, U of M... You get the picture. Heck, Prairie View A&M is a Land Grant. The schools come in all sizes and form and belong to a variety of athletic leagues. There are a lot of reason NDSU (and yes, SDSU) will likely never be in the MVC, being Land Grant Universities has nothing to do with it.

Would you have rather I said "non-directional public school with football priority"?

[nodak651]

I just did. Congrats to UMD winning the "D1" hockey natty.

"D1" Make fun of it all you want, but they are a legit D1 program. Their program that you belittle has way better facilities than your basketball team.


http://umdbulldogs.com/images/2015/3/16/AmsoilFullHouse6869.jpg

[jacksfan29]

Would you have rather I said "non-directional public school with football priority"?

Maybe, just don't say Land Grant because there are a lot of oddball Land Grants out there. We think of it as those we are most closely tied to. For SDSU the Ag School works most closely with NDSU, Colorado State, Montana State, Iowa State and I believe we do some research with New Mexico State (but don't quote me on that). When you get down south and out east, I'm always surprised at who are considered to be Land Grant's.

[BisonFan02]

"D1" Make fun of it all you want, but they are a legit D1 program. Their program that you belittle has way better facilities than your basketball team.


http://umdbulldogs.com/images/2015/3/16/AmsoilFullHouse6869.jpg

Not belittling at all. D2 school with impressive D1 hockey and facilities. Sound familiar?

[Model Citizen]

T There are a lot of reason NDSU (and yes, SDSU) will likely never be in the MVC, being Land Grant Universities has nothing to do with it.

True.

Back when Louisville, Memphis State, North Texas State, and Saint Louis left the Valley, there may have been opportunities for the Dakota schools to join. Instead, they remained D-II. So the Valley basically took whoever was available. Now, with dogs in the manger, you'll have to make the best of being in the Summit League. Might develop into a better basketball conference than the Valley someday.

[nodak651]

Not belittling at all. D2 school with impressive D1 hockey and facilities. Sound familiar?

No.

[JacksFan40]

The "core four" are at the hip....its safe. That being said. UND should go back to D2 with Duluth, St. Cloud and Mankato....it won't happen, but it would make sense.
Send USD as well, leave SDSU as the sole D1 school in the state. USD can have rivalries in BBal with Northern and Augie, and football with Sioux Falls.

[BisonFan02]

No.

Sir? Be honest with yourself. xlolx

[BisonFan02]

Send USD as well, leave SDSU as the sole D1 school in the state. USD can have rivalries in BBal with Northern and Augie, and football with Sioux Falls.

Get them to add hockey and yeah.....

[clenz]

True.

Back when Louisville, Memphis State, North Texas State, and Saint Louis left the Valley, there may have been opportunities for the Dakota schools to join. Instead, they remained D-II. So the Valley basically took whoever was available. Now, with dogs in the manger, you'll have to make the best of being in the Summit League. Might develop into a better basketball conference than the Valley someday.

Rofl.


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[IBleedYellow]

True.

Back when Louisville, Memphis State, North Texas State, and Saint Louis left the Valley, there may have been opportunities for the Dakota schools to join. Instead, they remained D-II. So the Valley basically took whoever was available. Now, with dogs in the manger, you'll have to make the best of being in the Summit League. Might develop into a better basketball conference than the Valley someday.


Here, go apply. You're a perfect fit for them.

https://und.edu/finance-operations/human-resources-payroll/careers/secure/job-openings-external.cfm (http://[URL="http://[URL")

[Yote 53]

Send USD as well, leave SDSU as the sole D1 school in the state. USD can have rivalries in BBal with Northern and Augie, and football with Sioux Falls.

Pfft. You Jackrabbit types fit in better with the Northern crowd. Forget moving SDSU back to D2, they should just close the school and roll all the programs into the one, true, and first Dakota university that was established in Vermillion.

[IBleedYellow]

Pfft. You Jackrabbit types fit in better with the Northern crowd. Forget moving SDSU back to D2, they should just close the school and roll all the programs into the one, true, and first Dakota university that was established in Vermillion.

You and UND are like peas and carrots.

The colors even sort of match.

[F'N Hawks]

Go back to Bisonville with T-bag Tony. Nobody wants to hear your stupid needledick **** on a national message board.

[clenz]

Go back to Bisonville with T-bag Tony. Nobody wants to hear your stupid needledick **** on a national message board.

God I hate we have to be in the same conference.


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[POD Knows]

Go back to Bisonville with T-bag Tony. Nobody wants to hear your stupid needledick **** on a national message board.Who are you talking to??

[POD Knows]

God I hate we have to be in the same conference.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYea, it must suck knowing UNI is going to be a bridesmaid or worse every year. xlolx

[F'N Hawks]

God I hate we have to be in the same conference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It will actually get better. But til then.....

[BisonFan02]

Who are you talking to??

Probably me.

Here's your D2 Hockey/All sports conference....the cream of the NSIC:

University of North Dakota - Enrollment "14,648"
St. Cloud State - Enrollment 17,231
University of Minnesota - Duluth - Enrollment 11,729
University of Minnesota - Mankato - Enrollment 15,649
Bemidji State University - Enrollment 5,365

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Sun_Intercollegiate_Conference

You guys already lose to U of Sioux Falls in football....take some affiliate members to fill out hockey (UNO and Denver)...bump up Minot State to grab another ND hockey school....tons of options once you clip the smaller D2 schools. Make it the NCC sans NDSU/SDSU.....and yes...that includes the topic school Augustana.

[Thumper 76]

Pfft. You Jackrabbit types fit in better with the Northern crowd. Forget moving SDSU back to D2, they should just close the school and roll all the programs into the one, true, and first Dakota university that was established in Vermillion.

Hey we aren’t the school in a town so garbage that it’s openly exploring moving the Law school somewhere else. And y’all tried that once, it didn’t work out. Now you’re the states flagship also ran. Personally I hope you guys stay DI so we can get to the point that there are kids that are legally drinking since they were after born USeD last got a win over SDSU in that time.


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[Yote 53]

Lol. I didn't start the crap on USD-fest, I simply responded and defended my school.

[Model Citizen]

Lol. I didn't start the crap on USD-fest, I simply responded and defended my school.

https://youtu.be/o7sLDziV2hs

[Model Citizen]

I noticed that Augustana's new AD has a reputation for fundraising.

[BisonFan02]

I noticed that Augustana's new AD has a reputation for fundraising.

May prove to be difficult. Augie is an ELCA school....which in this area is a bunch of tight wad Swedes and Norwegians. :D

[Twentysix]

So let them dig their own grave then. Like you said they're a private university so it's not like they're raiding the state's coffers if they fail.

Just be honest... you don't care about how well or poorly positioned they are to succeed in D1, you just don't want that extra competition in SDSU's #1 market for fans/alumni. I don't blame you. I'd have similar feelings if Minnesota State-Moorhead would announce intentions to move D1 and try to join the Summit League.That would be a bitchin home game lol.

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[Yotes21]

Hey we aren’t the school in a town so garbage that it’s openly exploring moving the Law school somewhere else. And y’all tried that once, it didn’t work out. Now you’re the states flagship also ran. Personally I hope you guys stay DI so we can get to the point that there are kids that are legally drinking since they were after born USeD last got a win over SDSU in that time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

English please...Those two semesters at sdac didn't help too much.

[jacksfan29]

English please...Those two semesters at sdac didn't help too much.

I see the UXD fans have arrived. A decent thread is now crap.

[F'N Hawks]

I see the UXD fans have arrived. A decent thread is now crap.

yeeaahhhhh........

Anywho, I cannot see any reason why Doople would look at adding Augie, other than the conference tournament in Sioux Falls has him thinking he needs a team there. But that would obviously be short-sighted after looking at the university as a whole.

Need to find a team in Minnesota that wants to move up (Mankato?) to expand the footprint a bit that way. UMKC bores me to death.

[Bisonator]

yeeaahhhhh........

Anywho, I cannot see any reason why Doople would look at adding Augie, other than the conference tournament in Sioux Falls has him thinking he needs a team there. But that would obviously be short-sighted after looking at the university as a whole.

Need to find a team in Minnesota that wants to move up (Mankato?) to expand the footprint a bit that way. UMKC bores me to death.
That's never going to happen.

[TheKingpin28]

yeeaahhhhh........

Anywho, I cannot see any reason why Doople would look at adding Augie, other than the conference tournament in Sioux Falls has him thinking he needs a team there. But that would obviously be short-sighted after looking at the university as a whole.

Need to find a team in Minnesota that wants to move up (Mankato?) to expand the footprint a bit that way. UMKC bores me to death.

U of M TC would never allow another school to go full D1 as that might steer recruits away from them. The BOR would only allow it, as long as the sports they were offering, were not the ones offered by the Goofers.

[nodak651]

U of M TC would never allow another school to go full D1 as that might steer recruits away from them. The BOR would only allow it, as long as the sports they were offering, were not the ones offered by the Goofers.

St. Thomas would be a prime D1 school. I think people in St. Paul would rally around that school. If they outgrew their on campus stadium, they could play at the new MLS stadium. Or move football to the pioneer.

They wouldn't want to leave St. John's though. Not sure how realistic it would be for them. But Both St. Thomas and St. John's joining the Summit would be pretty cool. Their fan bases and school pride are on par with all of the Dakotas and trump most other mid majors.


http://www.tommiesports.com/sports/fball/2017-18/TargetField.jpg?max_width=625

[TheKingpin28]

St. Thomas would be a prime D1 school. I think people in St. Paul would rally around that school. If they outgrew their on campus stadium, they could play at the new MLS stadium. Or move football to the pioneer.

They wouldn't want to leave St. John's though. Not sure how realistic it would be for them. But Both St. Thomas and St. John's joining the Summit would be pretty cool. Their fan bases and school pride are on par with all of the Dakotas and trump most other mid majors.


http://www.tommiesports.com/sports/fball/2017-18/TargetField.jpg?max_width=625

I doubt Oral Roberts would vote for either of them due to their religious affiliations and while The Summit as a whole would enjoy having baseball stability, there is no way in hell a combination of NDSU, GFCC, SDSU, and USeD would ever vote for them to join. They would never move their football to the Pioneer, due to travel costs, and we are once again stuck with a "NCC-esque" situation. I would not want them to join. If they want to move to D2, let them, but not D1. Some students want to remain close to home and the St. Cloud area is only 1 hour from the Twin Cities and that alone, could convince recruits to go there over other places. This would be a horrible idea.

[IBleedYellow]

yeeaahhhhh........

Anywho, I cannot see any reason why Doople would look at adding Augie, other than the conference tournament in Sioux Falls has him thinking he needs a team there. But that would obviously be short-sighted after looking at the university as a whole.

Need to find a team in Minnesota that wants to move up (Mankato?) to expand the footprint a bit that way. UMKC bores me to death.

Minnesota will never allow another institution in the State to be D1 in anything other than hockey.

[F'N Hawks]

Minnesota will never allow another institution in the State to be D1 in anything other than hockey.

What do you mean?

[clenz]

What do you mean?

Look at Wisconsin and Nebraska. Won’t happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[IBleedYellow]

What do you mean?

Exactly what I just said. Wisconsin does not allow any Universities to join D1 in any sports. Nebraska is that same way (almost...) in that they made Nebraska Omaha drop football and other sports in order to go D1.


Minnesota, Wisconsin, Nebraska, etc won't allow the other Universities to move up to D1.

[Yote 53]

Except for UW-Green Bay & UW-Milwaukee and UN-Omaha. I guess that Wisconsin and Nebraska do allow other schools in the state be D1 schools. The Summit, technically, doesn't need football, so Minnesota could allow one of the three of Duluth, St. Cloud, or Mankato to move D1 if they drop football, just like the Wisconsin and Nebraska schools if it wanted and could follow the same model.

I love how, like I already pointed out, the pot shots towards USD started long before any Coyote fans posted anything in this thread, yet when we respond in kind we get accused of "ruining a thread". I guess I should expect that from fans of BAC and NDAC.

[IBleedYellow]

Exactly what I just said. Wisconsin does not allow any Universities to join D1 in any sports. Nebraska is that same way (almost...) in that they made Nebraska Omaha drop football and other sports in order to go D1.


Minnesota, Wisconsin, Nebraska, etc won't allow the other Universities to move up to D1.

Edit: Meant D1 football for Wisconsin and Nebraska.

There are no other D1 Universities sans hockey in Minnesota, though.

[BisonFan02]

Except for UW-Green Bay & UW-Milwaukee and UN-Omaha. I guess that Wisconsin and Nebraska do allow other schools in the state be D1 schools. The Summit, technically, doesn't need football, so Minnesota could allow one of the three of Duluth, St. Cloud, or Mankato to move D1 if they drop football, just like the Wisconsin and Nebraska schools if it wanted and could follow the same model.

I love how, like I already pointed out, the pot shots towards USD started long before any Coyote fans posted anything in this thread, yet when we respond in kind we get accused of "ruining a thread". I guess I should expect that from fans of BAC and NDAC.

We're a sensitive bunch. All hail the mighty Bizon!

[Laker]

St. Thomas would be a prime D1 school. I think people in St. Paul would rally around that school. If they outgrew their on campus stadium, they could play at the new MLS stadium. Or move football to the pioneer.

They wouldn't want to leave St. John's though. Not sure how realistic it would be for them. But Both St. Thomas and St. John's joining the Summit would be pretty cool. Their fan bases and school pride are on par with all of the Dakotas and trump most other mid majors.

I have former student athletes who played at St John's and St Thomas. I've gone to watch them many times. Great atmosphere. However, there is no desire for either school to go D2, without even thinking about D1. They love being the big fishes in a small pond. The MIAC is relatively compact so they can play midweek basketball games and not miss much school.

UMD can finally say that they are a hockey school since they now have the same number of national championships in that sport as they do in hockey. I've had talks with Bulldog fans. Interest to go D1 in any sport other than hockey isn't there. St. Cloud is in a worse position- hockey eats up their money- why go when all that would mean is spending money on non-hockey sports? Any football or basketball fan at SCSU would tell you the same thing. As far as MSU-Mankato- the fan interest isn't there. They would have to drop football. They pump most of their money into hockey. All three schools do that already so going D1 in all sports, even if they dropped FB would be a huge mistake.

[BisonFan02]

I have former student athletes who played at St John's and St Thomas. I've gone to watch them many times. Great atmosphere. However, there is no desire for either school to go D2, without even thinking about D1. They love being the big fishes in a small pond. The MIAC is relatively compact so they can play midweek basketball games and not miss much school.

UMD can finally say that they are a hockey school since they now have the same number of national championships in that sport as they do in hockey. I've had talks with Bulldog fans. Interest to go D1 in any sport other than hockey isn't there. St. Cloud is in a worse position- hockey eats up their money- why go when all that would mean is spending money on non-hockey sports? Any football or basketball fan at SCSU would tell you the same thing. As far as MSU-Mankato- the fan interest isn't there. They would have to drop football. They pump most of their money into hockey. All three schools do that already so going D1 in all sports, even if they dropped FB would be a huge mistake.

Bingo...........

I wish Jamestown could be in the MIAC

[Laker]

Bingo...........

I wish Jamestown could be in the MIAC

With that nickname they would fit right in with the Johnnies, Tommies and Gusties!

[BisonFan02]

With that nickname they would fit right in with the Johnnies, Tommies and Gusties!

Academic fit too....the whole "ND" thing is a problem though.

[Laker]

http://kwsn.com/podcasts/sports-talk-with-kwsn/5093/matt-zimmer-on-augie-to-div-i-talks-mooney-sweepstakes-tom-lee-hire/

Podcast about Augustana potentially going D1. Every one of these commentators thinks Augie is seriously considering a move to D1.

"Some points mentioned
-Move would be specifically for the Summit league.
-Football is a top consideration and would not be discontinued ie Nebraska Omaha.
-The Pioneer conference being a top contender as a non-scholarship football conference.
- Would be considered sooner rather than later.
- Current budget is 10M, compared to 17M for USD and 20M for SDSU. Both more than those schools had when they went D1."

[clenz]

Budget is such a hard thing to really compare - especially private vs public.

Budget includes scholarship costs. It costs more than double to go to Angie than those two.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

http://kwsn.com/podcasts/sports-talk-with-kwsn/5093/matt-zimmer-on-augie-to-div-i-talks-mooney-sweepstakes-tom-lee-hire/

Podcast about Augustana potentially going D1. Every one of these commentators thinks Augie is seriously considering a move to D1.

"Some points mentioned
-Move would be specifically for the Summit league.
-Football is a top consideration and would not be discontinued ie Nebraska Omaha.
-The Pioneer conference being a top contender as a non-scholarship football conference.
- Would be considered sooner rather than later.
- Current budget is 10M, compared to 17M for USD and 20M for SDSU. Both more than those schools had when they went D1."


Augie had a nice FB stadium when I went down to watch Bemidji State play them. Small but if they went Pioneer, it would be fine.

[BisonFan02]

Budget is such a hard thing to really compare - especially private vs public.

Budget includes scholarship costs. It costs more than double to go to Angie than those two.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup.

[Laker]

Augie had a nice FB stadium when I went down to watch Bemidji State play them. Small but if they went Pioneer, it would be fine.

It might be the top stadium in the NSIC- but it doesn't have lights.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

It might be the top stadium in the NSIC- but it doesn't have lights.


Laker, you could answer this one. I haven't been to all of the NSIC stadiums but Crookston has to be the worst....right? HS fields are better than this one.

[Laker]

Laker, you could answer this one. I haven't been to all of the NSIC stadiums but Crookston has to be the worst....right? HS fields are better than this one.

Yes- you hit the nail right on the head. I've been to all of the NSIC schools at least twice. UMC is by far the worst. Visitor's side is terrible. Field takes a beating. Atmosphere is better on Mars.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Yes- you hit the nail right on the head. I've been to all of the NSIC schools at least twice. UMC is by far the worst. Visitor's side is terrible. Field takes a beating. Atmosphere is better on Mars.


xlolx

xnodx


I went to a UMC game when South Dakota was there when they were D2...what a butt whipping. UMC should be in with Mayville State, Valley City and Dickinson.

[Laker]

UMC should be in with Mayville State, Valley City and Dickinson.

Yes, either with them or with the UMAC. UM-Morris was smart to join the UMAC instead of getting killed in the NSIC.

[clenz]

Budget is such a hard thing to really compare - especially private vs public.

Budget includes scholarship costs. It costs more than double to go to Angie than those two.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As proof I did some number looking

In only athletic aid related expenses
USD 4.2m
SDSU 4.01 m
Augie 3.8m

Football aside Augie is running 25-30 or so scholarships lower than those two due to D1 v D2. That’s about 900.000 extra in costs.

Augie is spending nearly 40% of their budget on just scholarships. Meanwhile the other two are a quarter or much less (as are every public in the upper Midwest).

I can, tomorrow, start comping actual budget line items like recruiting expenses, coaches salaries, gameday op expenses, etc... and you’ll quickly see how far behind Augie really is if anyone is interested.


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[JacksFan40]

xlolx

xnodx


I went to a UMC game when South Dakota was there when they were D2...what a butt whipping. UMC should be in with Mayville State, Valley City and Dickinson.
Not sure if they’d do good in that conference either. For the NSAA, Valley City is good, Dakota State is good Dickinson is solid, heck even Presentation could give them a run.

[F'N Hawks]

Not sure if they’d do good in that conference either. For the NSAA, Valley City is good, Dakota State is good Dickinson is solid, heck even Presentation could give them a run.

Feel bad for that staff. How do you recruit to that situation? Most all players you recruit have played on a nicer field than yours.

[JacksFan40]

Feel bad for that staff. How do you recruit to that situation? Most all players you recruit have played on a nicer field than yours.
They’re better off dropping the program. Focus more attention to other sports. They’ll never win more than 4-5 games.

[WestCoastAggie]

This entire thread has been hilarious!

[Model Citizen]

Average football budget in the Pioneer is about $1M. I imagine Augie would save a nickel or two going non-scholarship...even with some expensive road trips.

[clenz]

Average football budget in the Pioneer is about $1M. I imagine Augie would save a nickel or two going non-scholarship...even with some expensive road trips.

Augie spent 1.9 million on football with the most recent numbers I have with game day operations expense of 250k. Assuming they give the full 36 scholarships, no reason to believe they don’t, that’s over 1.1m of the 1.9m tied up in scholarships. They’d drop to under 800k in football related expenses (coaches, recruiting, travel, equipment, etc.). Travel would still leave them ahead of their D2 costs and help offset the total cost of a D1 move


I just don’t see how SD, with a population of 750k needs 3 D1 schools at all, let alone within and hour of each other. Maybe one on the west side of the state - like BHSU might make sense but I just don’t get it

I also fail to see how the upper Midwest needs another D1 school.

I guess it adds an OOC opportunity for UNI and Drake in some sports.


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[ST_Lawson]

- Current budget is 10M, compared to 17M for USD and 20M for SDSU. Both more than those schools had when they went D1."

Looks like 10M would fit in pretty well with the Pioneer League. As long as they don't have aspirations of being the next NDSU, I'd think that'd be ok.


Augie had a nice FB stadium when I went down to watch Bemidji State play them. Small but if they went Pioneer, it would be fine.

Right, they'd have the 5th largest (out of 12 teams) football stadium in the conference.


I just don’t see how SD, with a population of 750k needs 3 D1 schools at all, let alone within and hour of each other. Maybe one on the west side of the state - like BHSU might make sense but I just don’t get it

I also fail to see how the upper Midwest needs another D1 school.

This is the bigger issue. They can probably handle a Summit/Pioneer situation financially, but population-wise, that's like having 3 DI (2 public, 1 private) in an area like Bakersfield, CA, Greenville, SC, or Omaha.

[IBleedYellow]

The Dakotas shouldn't even have more than 1 D1 University in each state....

[Model Citizen]

Augie spent 1.9 million on football with the most recent numbers I have with game day operations expense of 250k. Assuming they give the full 36 scholarships, no reason to believe they don’t, that’s over 1.1m of the 1.9m tied up in scholarships.

Until now, the NSIC limited teams to 28 equivalencies (was 24... years ago). They will be able to go 36 as of this fall.

Subtract the athletic aid, and add some airline travel...Augustana would probably get to the PFL spending average.

[clenz]

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=27404&stc=1

South Dakota – 750,000
North Dakota – 850,000
Iowa – 3,200,000
Minnesota – 5,500,000 (MSP is 3,280,000 of that)
Illinois – 12,800,000 (Chicago is 9,500,000 of that and has 7 schools within like an hour of downtown) D1as part of it’s MSA
Nebraska – 1,900,000
Wisconsin – 5,500,000 (1,700,000 of that in Milwaukee)
Missouri – 6,100,000 (and that’s almost exclusively STL and KC MSA and when we take out southern MO because few consider it the upper Midwest the value falls further)


In terms of an recruiting area for Augstana (IA, MN, SD and ND – and not even Iowa…like the smallest population portion of Iowa out NW) there are already 12 existing D1 schools with a total population base of less than 10 million.


In the map that I called upper Midwest total there are 35 existing D1 schools, and that’s not counting schools like SIU, SEMO, Murray State, Indiana State, APSU, etc… that are right outside of Illinois or “just too far south” to be upper Midwest by my standards. There are pushing 50 schools that recruit the upper Midwest and exist in the upper Midwest.


36,000,000 people in the area I outlined for between 35-50 schools pending where you want to cut the upper Midwest. That’s insane. The idea that Mankato, St. Cloud, St. John’s, St. Thomas, Gustavas Adalphus, Sioux Falls, or any of these other damn schools need to move D1 for any reason is just stupid. The population base doesn’t exist. Look at the map I posted. Notice where all of that open space without schools is? Freaking no one lives there. That’s why there isn’t any D1 schools there.


Oh, plus there are something like 35 or 36 D2, NAIA and D3 schools in the state of Iowa alone – almost all of them out west. Plus all the D2, NAIA and D3 in SD, MN, and NE. There isn’t a talent pool to support this many D1 schools. Augie is going to still recruit D2 kids and try to compete in the D1 level with D2 rosters.


I just….I don’t get it.

[clenz]

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=27404&stc=1

South Dakota – 750,000
North Dakota – 850,000
Iowa – 3,200,000
Minnesota – 5,500,000 (MSP is 3,280,000 of that)
Illinois – 12,800,000 (Chicago is 9,500,000 of that and has 7 schools within like an hour of downtown) D1as part of it’s MSA
Nebraska – 1,900,000
Wisconsin – 5,500,000 (1,700,000 of that in Milwaukee)
Missouri – 6,100,000 (and that’s almost exclusively STL and KC MSA and when we take out southern MO because few consider it the upper Midwest the value falls further)


In terms of an recruiting area for Augstana (IA, MN, SD and ND – and not even Iowa…like the smallest population portion of Iowa out NW) there are already 12 existing D1 schools with a total population base of less than 10 million.


In the map that I called upper Midwest total there are 35 existing D1 schools, and that’s not counting schools like SIU, SEMO, Murray State, Indiana State, APSU, etc… that are right outside of Illinois or “just too far south” to be upper Midwest by my standards. There are pushing 50 schools that recruit the upper Midwest and exist in the upper Midwest.


36,000,000 people in the area I outlined for between 35-50 schools pending where you want to cut the upper Midwest. That’s insane. The idea that Mankato, St. Cloud, St. John’s, St. Thomas, Gustavas Adalphus, Sioux Falls, or any of these other damn schools need to move D1 for any reason is just stupid. The population base doesn’t exist. Look at the map I posted. Notice where all of that open space without schools is? Freaking no one lives there. That’s why there isn’t any D1 schools there.


Oh, plus there are something like 35 or 36 D2, NAIA and D3 schools in the state of Iowa alone – almost all of them out west. Plus all the D2, NAIA and D3 in SD, MN, and NE. There isn’t a talent pool to support this many D1 schools. Augie is going to still recruit D2 kids and try to compete in the D1 level with D2 rosters.


I just….I don’t get it.

[Laker]

Until now, the NSIC limited teams to 28 equivalencies (was 24... years ago). They will be able to go 36 as of this fall.

Subtract the athletic aid, and add some airline travel...Augustana would probably get to the PFL spending average.

MSU-Mankato is planning on raising scholarships two at a time to 30 next year. I know that Winona has already got the money to go to 36. Expect to see them stay near the top of the standings. Other schools that might be able to go to 36 quickly would include Sioux Falls.

[jacksfan29]

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=27404&stc=1

South Dakota – 750,000
North Dakota – 850,000
Iowa – 3,200,000
Minnesota – 5,500,000 (MSP is 3,280,000 of that)
Illinois – 12,800,000 (Chicago is 9,500,000 of that and has 7 schools within like an hour of downtown) D1as part of it’s MSA
Nebraska – 1,900,000
Wisconsin – 5,500,000 (1,700,000 of that in Milwaukee)
Missouri – 6,100,000 (and that’s almost exclusively STL and KC MSA and when we take out southern MO because few consider it the upper Midwest the value falls further)



Not a big deal, but you have the populations of South Dakota and North Dakota switched around. South Dakota is just under 870K, North right around 750K. You are correct, a state with under a million does not need a third D1 school, nor can it afford a 3rd D1 school.

[jacksfan29]

And that is at the D2 level, everything is much more expensive when you move up to D1.

In addition, when you talk non-scholarship FB, how many of Drake's FB players receive need or academic based scholarships? Wouldn't that simply be shifting the costs from your athletic department elsewhere? There is a reason so many from inside Augustana, including their current and long time Women's BB coach say the school is crazy to attempt the move.


As proof I did some number looking

In only athletic aid related expenses
USD 4.2m
SDSU 4.01 m
Augie 3.8m

Football aside Augie is running 25-30 or so scholarships lower than those two due to D1 v D2. That’s about 900.000 extra in costs.

Augie is spending nearly 40% of their budget on just scholarships. Meanwhile the other two are a quarter or much less (as are every public in the upper Midwest).

I can, tomorrow, start comping actual budget line items like recruiting expenses, coaches salaries, gameday op expenses, etc... and you’ll quickly see how far behind Augie really is if anyone is interested.


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[JacksFan40]

The Dakotas shouldn't even have more than 1 D1 University in each state....
Each would only have 1 if the UxD’s didn’t have to copy the xDSU’s as soon as they started to do solid at D1. I remember when USD fans called SDSU stupid and that a D1 move would flop.

[Model Citizen]

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=27404&stc=1

Augie is going to still recruit D2 kids and try to compete in the D1 level with D2 rosters.

That's what happens in the PFL. No need to have a stroke.

[clenz]

That's what happens in the PFL. No need to have a stroke.

I’m talking all sports.

What’s the additional benefit of being D1 at that point?


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[Model Citizen]

Gotta think they can pick up 7-10 overlooked recruits and pull a '98 Valpo or an '18 Loyola performance. (cue One Shining Moment). That's the fantasy, at least.

Doubt anyone cares about the Olympic sports.

[JacksFan40]

Gotta think they can pick up 7-10 overlooked recruits and pull a '98 Valpo or an '18 Loyola performance. (cue One Shining Moment). That's the fantasy, at least.

Doubt anyone cares about the Olympic sports.
Plenty of solid kids in SD who don't go to SDSU or USD that'll be interested in Augie, especially 9-Man players.

[ST_Lawson]

Gotta think they can pick up 7-10 overlooked recruits and pull a '98 Valpo or an '18 Loyola performance. (cue One Shining Moment). That's the fantasy, at least.

Doubt anyone cares about the Olympic sports.

They could just as easily pull a Western Illinois and over the course of 36 years make the NCAA tournament exactly zero times.

[Model Citizen]

As noted earlier, Augie has had very good basketball, albeit in D-II. They are different from Western in many ways.

[IBleedYellow]

I remember when UxD fans called xDSU stupid and that a D1 move would flop.

Fixed that for you.

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[BisonBacker]

SDSU fans seem to think that by denying Augustana an invitation to the Summit, they can keep them out of D-I altogether.

I would say that if Augustana wants to move up, the Summit won't be their only choice. The WAC would take them in a Fargo minute.

xlolx That's a good one. I want some of what you are drinking xlolx

[Model Citizen]

The WAC took Chicago State. I rest my case.

[Laker]

The WAC took Chicago State. I rest my case.

Does anyone know what is going to happen to CSU? Very small freshmen classes, all kinds of money problems, no hope of getting into a conference closer to home. Drop to D2 or just drop all together?

[JacksFan40]

Does anyone know what is going to happen to CSU? Very small freshmen classes, all kinds of money problems, no hope of getting into a conference closer to home. Drop to D2 or just drop all together?
Likely drop all together, I can't imagine dropping to D2 would be any better.

[JacksFan40]

Fixed that for you.

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Why thank you. I only used USD as an example, didn't pay much attention to UND's attitude towards NDSU.

[dgtw]

Likely drop all together, I can't imagine dropping to D2 would be any better.

They fired both basketball coaches a month ago and haven’t hired anyone yet.

If they drop to D2, they wouldn’t be able to play the money games that likely keep them afloat. But the travel budget would save a bundle as they could get into a more regional conference.

Given the issues the school is facing as a whole, they should drop athletics and try to save the university. I doubt a basketball team that went 3-29 last year is attracting many students.


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[jacksfan29]

The WAC took Chicago State. I rest my case.

Augie has one shot and one shot only at going D1. An invite into the Summit League. Even the most rabid supporters of them moving up admit that. They can't afford WAC, they can't afford to be without the larger state schools as "rivals". As many have stated, there is no guarantee they can afford the Summit.

[ST_Lawson]

As noted earlier, Augie has had very good basketball, albeit in D-II. They are different from Western in many ways.

We had really good basketball in DII as well. Went 21-8 our last year as DII (19-10 the year before), and made it two games deep in the playoffs.

[ST_Lawson]

They fired both basketball coaches a month ago and haven’t hired anyone yet.

If they drop to D2, they wouldn’t be able to play the money games that likely keep them afloat. But the travel budget would save a bundle as they could get into a more regional conference.

Given the issues the school is facing as a whole, they should drop athletics and try to save the university. I doubt a basketball team that went 3-29 last year is attracting many students.


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Personally, I think that if they want to keep athletics, they should just drop down to NAIA and join the Chicagoland Collegiate Athletic Conference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicagoland_Collegiate_Athletic_Conference

You want to talk about reducing the travel budget...https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZwCKdj0a1Mw6r_8O9UH7GAjpspffBhqU&usp=sharing
(current CCAC members in blue, Chicago State in red)

[Model Citizen]

Chicago St. dropping athletics would not be unprecedented in Illinois. NE Illinois, a.k.a. Chicago's historically Hispanic university, went from D-I to no athletics.

[dgtw]

Personally, I think that if they want to keep athletics, they should just drop down to NAIA and join the Chicagoland Collegiate Athletic Conference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicagoland_Collegiate_Athletic_Conference

You want to talk about reducing the travel budget...https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZwCKdj0a1Mw6r_8O9UH7GAjpspffBhqU&usp=sharing
(current CCAC members in blue, Chicago State in red)

They could just buy a bucket of tokens for the El and they’d be all set.


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[JacksFan40]

Personally, I think that if they want to keep athletics, they should just drop down to NAIA and join the Chicagoland Collegiate Athletic Conference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicagoland_Collegiate_Athletic_Conference

You want to talk about reducing the travel budget...https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZwCKdj0a1Mw6r_8O9UH7GAjpspffBhqU&usp=sharing
(current CCAC members in blue, Chicago State in red)
Travel wise it’d be good for them. But I doubt they’d be any better in NAIA honestly. They recruit at a NAIA level already, they drop there, won’t get many players to come play.

[ST_Lawson]

Travel wise it’d be good for them. But I doubt they’d be any better in NAIA honestly. They recruit at a NAIA level already, they drop there, won’t get many players to come play.

Idk, I think there's enough talent in the Chicago area + Milwaukee and Indiana to put together a team. Can't be much worse than the teams they've been putting on the court lately anyway. Plus, recruiting locally means that players friends and family can more easily make it to both home and away games. It looks like they do that quite a bit anyway with 10 out of their 14 players either within the "Chicagoland area" or a short train ride away. They can still offer scholarships and other aid to players, plus if a player ends up being really good, I think it's a little easier to transfer to a NCAA D1 school from an NAIA school than it is from a different NCAA D1 school...so players would have a little more flexibility in their future options.

[clenz]

Gotta think they can pick up 7-10 overlooked recruits and pull a '98 Valpo or an '18 Loyola performance. (cue One Shining Moment). That's the fantasy, at least.

Doubt anyone cares about the Olympic sports.
The thing about this year's Loyola is they weren't overlooked players.

Clayton Custer was a 4* top 20 rated PG coming out of HS with a dozen P5 offers and he spent a few years at Iowa State. Transfered to Loyola to play with his HS and AAU teammate Ben Richardson
Ben Richardson had something like a dozen offers out of HS
Donte Ingram had MVC offers and is from Chicago
Marques Townes was a tranfer from out east and grew up in Jersey. Had offers from 12 D1 schools out of HS and PWO from B1G schools
Aundre Jackson was a JUCO transfer. Probably meets the under the radar category
Cam Krutwig had over 20 D1 offers - MVC, A10, MAC, etc. Was a 3* top 20 rated center
Lucas Williamson - had double digit offers from the MVC to MAC to HL to A10 level. He's also from Chicago.

Loyola got hot, for sure. Maybe Porter finally figured out how to coach after over a decade of not being good at it. Loyola played best when he didn't coach - no time outs, less set plays, etc. The one thing Porter has been able to do at Loyola that has baffled many is the ability to recruit well above Loyola's level. He just hasn't been able to develop them.

In terms of ability to fund things - LUC has an endowment of over 750m, Augie 65m. Loyola produces tons of lawyers and doctors with their highly ranked law and med programs. Augie produces a "bunch" of...nurses and teachers. Loyola draws talent from the metro of Chicago and Milwaukee. Augie draws talent from an already oversaturated market that has less than 50,000 outside of Sioux Falls for a few hours in any direction. Almost none of them are even low-major D1 talent - let alone enough to make a run in the NCAA tournament.

[jacksfan29]

The thing about this year's Loyola is they weren't overlooked players.

Clayton Custer was a 4* top 20 rated PG coming out of HS with a dozen P5 offers and he spent a few years at Iowa State. Transfered to Loyola to play with his HS and AAU teammate Ben Richardson
Ben Richardson had something like a dozen offers out of HS
Donte Ingram had MVC offers and is from Chicago
Marques Townes was a tranfer from out east and grew up in Jersey. Had offers from 12 D1 schools out of HS and PWO from B1G schools
Aundre Jackson was a JUCO transfer. Probably meets the under the radar category
Cam Krutwig had over 20 D1 offers - MVC, A10, MAC, etc. Was a 3* top 20 rated center
Lucas Williamson - had double digit offers from the MVC to MAC to HL to A10 level. He's also from Chicago.

Loyola got hot, for sure. Maybe Porter finally figured out how to coach after over a decade of not being good at it. Loyola played best when he didn't coach - no time outs, less set plays, etc. The one thing Porter has been able to do at Loyola that has baffled many is the ability to recruit well above Loyola's level. He just hasn't been able to develop them.

In terms of ability to fund things - LUC has an endowment of over 750m, Augie 65m. Loyola produces tons of lawyers and doctors with their highly ranked law and med programs. Augie produces a "bunch" of...nurses and teachers. Loyola draws talent from the metro of Chicago and Milwaukee. Augie draws talent from an already oversaturated market that has less than 50,000 outside of Sioux Falls for a few hours in any direction. Almost none of them are even low-major D1 talent - let alone enough to make a run in the NCAA tournament.

When I read comments from Augustana moving up supporters saying that Augie could be the next Creighton or Loyola I have to laugh. It proves that the bubble in Sioux Falls is in place. Augustana has ZERO in common with either of those two schools or metro areas.

[doolittledog]

The D3 Augustana in the Quad Cities has a larger enrollment, a bigger endowment, higher annual giving, and is located in a more populated metro area than the D2 Augustana in Sioux Falls. Maybe the wrong Augustana is considering a move xlolx

[Yote 53]

I made that exact same statement over on the South Dakota board.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The D3 Augustana in the Quad Cities has a larger enrollment, a bigger endowment, higher annual giving, and is located in a more populated metro area than the D2 Augustana in Sioux Falls. Maybe the wrong Augustana is considering a move xlolx

The issue with that is since they're D-III, they need to transition to D-II first (six years) and THEN transition to D-I (another six). As a result, you have Chicago State clinging to D-I when they have no business being D-I, and schools like Augustana College, Wisconsin-Whitewater and others who are ludicrously below D-I when everything about their school screams D-I. As people know on here, state politics enter into it as well, but the NCAA also does its part in keeping everything frozen in 1983.

[ST_Lawson]

The issue with that is since they're D-III, they need to transition to D-II first (six years) and THEN transition to D-I (another six). As a result, you have Chicago State clinging to D-I when they have no business being D-I, and schools like Augustana College, Wisconsin-Whitewater and others who are ludicrously below D-I when everything about their school screams D-I. As people know on here, state politics enter into it as well, but the NCAA also does its part in keeping everything frozen in 1983.

Just to be clear, Augustana (either one) isn't really a DI material. Hell, at this point I'm not sure we are. Chicago State definitely shouldn't be either.

[Laker]

This was on Twitter this morning. My take is: he cares about basketball, not about football. The best that they could hope for is Pioneer. The worst is to drop football.

http://kwsn.com/podcasts/sports-talk-with-kwsn/5093/sanford-ceo-kelby-krabbenhoft-on-why-augie-would-succeed-in-div-i/#.WxqVPWCCkTM.twitter

[JacksFan40]

This was on Twitter this morning. My take is: he cares about basketball, not about football. The best that they could hope for is Pioneer. The worst is to drop football.

http://kwsn.com/podcasts/sports-talk-with-kwsn/5093/sanford-ceo-kelby-krabbenhoft-on-why-augie-would-succeed-in-div-i/#.WxqVPWCCkTM.twitter
With the money they put into that stadium, I'd think they'd at least play Pioneer. I think they'd be decent in the PFL. Winning that baseball title is going to help their case immensely now.

[Laker]

With the money they put into that stadium, I'd think they'd at least play Pioneer. I think they'd be decent in the PFL. Winning that baseball title is going to help their case immensely now.

As soon as they won that national title the pot was boiling.

[NDB]

?

They need to increase their athletic budget by millions.

How are they going to do that?

[JacksFan40]

?

They need to increase their athletic budget by millions.

How are they going to do that?
Sanford will pour in money for them, at least I'd presume that's where they'll get their money from.

[IBleedYellow]

This nonsense needs to stop.

[Laker]

?

They need to increase their athletic budget by millions.

How are they going to do that?


Sanford will pour in money for them, at least I'd presume that's where they'll get their money from.

Yep. Krabbenhoft donated at least 5 million to the MSU basketball program last season. Unbelievable.

[VandalBasher]

Isn't this school known for solid academics? If they have the money, what would be the issue?

[clenz]

Not really.

Money is always an issue for a school that has 1800 students and is so city licked it literally can’t expand.

Augie is probably the 10th most popular college in their own city and definitely 4th in terms of SD schools that are supported in that city behind SDSU USD and even USF.


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[Laker]

Isn't this school known for solid academics? If they have the money, what would be the issue?

They can't get much bigger numbers student wise. Their fan base is pretty old. There are plenty of alternatives in USD, SDSU, or even USF. They have minor league pro teams. I don't see Coyote or Jack fans converting.

[Yote 53]

Isn't this school known for solid academics? If they have the money, what would be the issue?

I wouldn't even say they are known for academics. It's a private school and you get a private school education, beyond that it is no big deal. USD Business School and SDSU Engineering are a much bigger deal than anything Augie has.

This wouldn't go anywhere if the Sanford money tentacles weren't sunk into the Dakota schools and the Summit League so deep. Sanford has the money and if they want Augie in they can surely twist the Dakotas and Summit into going along with it, even if it is not in any of our best interest to do so. I don't know, maybe the non-profit Sanford should cut the price of their health care services rather than taking $100 million of profits and buying themselves an athletic department.

[Laker]

I wouldn't even say they are known for academics. It's a private school and you get a private school education, beyond that it is no big deal. USD Business School and SDSU Engineering are a much bigger deal than anything Augie has.

This wouldn't go anywhere if the Sanford money tentacles weren't sunk into the Dakota schools and the Summit League so deep. Sanford has the money and if they want Augie in they can surely twist the Dakotas and Summit into going along with it, even if it is not in any of our best interest to do so. I don't know, maybe the non-profit Sanford should cut the price of their health care services rather than taking $100 million of profits and buying themselves an athletic department.

That would be a novel idea for a business.

[ST_Lawson]

Meanwhile at WIU...
uh....a funeral home gave us a couple hundred bucks...so we got that goin' for us, which is nice.

Don't suppose Sanford Health wants to buy a small town hospital in West-Central Illinois, eh?

[clenz]

How much truth is there to WIU having an incoming class of just 800?

I’ve seen that a few places but unsure of the validity of them.


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[NDB]

Yep.

https://capitolfax.com/2018/05/22/wiu-looking-at-drastic-enrollment-declines-deficit-spending-increases/

[NDB]

Yep.

https://capitolfax.com/2018/05/22/wiu-looking-at-drastic-enrollment-declines-deficit-spending-increases/


.............

[Model Citizen]

If they ever want to get into the MVFC, they would be unwise to drop scholarships. They have about 30 equivalencies right now. Going non-scholarship, then ramping back up again later probably adds 10 years to the process.

If their goal is D-I scholarship football they should keep the equivalencies they have, and compete as an independent until they find more money.

[ST_Lawson]

How much truth is there to WIU having an incoming class of just 800?

I’ve seen that a few places but unsure of the validity of them.


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Well, official numbers don't come out until two weeks into the fall semester ("10th day"), but it looks likely to be somewhere in that vicinity.

[TheKingpin28]

If they ever want to get into the MVFC, they would be unwise to drop scholarships. They have about 30 equivalencies right now. Going non-scholarship, then ramping back up again later probably adds 10 years to the process.

If their goal is D-I scholarship football they should keep the equivalencies they have, and compete as an independent until they find more money.

99.999999% chance of NGTH to NGTH

The east voting bloc would either a) prevent this or b) ensure it was one less trip west on the rotation schedule. You're telling me that, YSU, ISUr, ISUb, WIU, and SIU want to add a footprint further west? If anything, it would be Murray St as the MVC would push for this over the Summit pushing for Sanford University to join. I do not know anyone who wants them in the Summit and/or MVFC. You saw how much the Dakota schools wanted GFCC, you think we want more trash joining? Might as well restart the NCC if that were the case.

[clenz]

Well, official numbers don't come out until two weeks into the fall semester ("10th day"), but it looks likely to be somewhere in that vicinity.

I’ve just got a bad feeling about WIU moving forward for the next decade or so. The university is imploding dorms rather than maintaining them because they weren’t able to fill it. A few years later an incoming class of 800 is expected. State funding issues galore. All at a university located literally in the middle of no where in an area of the country that is the middle of no where.

It’s not just wiu I guess. I look at the situation happening in the SIU system right now between Carbondale and Edwardsville.

At some point something is going to give in Illinois. I can’t imagine that by 2030, it sinner, there aren’t a number of D1 schools that aren’t either closed or D2.


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[cx500d]

Yep.

https://capitolfax.com/2018/05/22/wiu-looking-at-drastic-enrollment-declines-deficit-spending-increases/

A lot of those comments blame rauner. I wonder how much worse off the Illinois financials would be if he fully funded all the directional schools, etc.


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[ST_Lawson]

I’ve just got a bad feeling about WIU moving forward for the next decade or so. The university is imploding dorms rather than maintaining them because they weren’t able to fill it. A few years later an incoming class of 800 is expected. State funding issues galore. All at a university located literally in the middle of no where in an area of the country that is the middle of no where.

It’s not just wiu I guess. I look at the situation happening in the SIU system right now between Carbondale and Edwardsville.

At some point something is going to give in Illinois. I can’t imagine that by 2030, it sinner, there aren’t a number of D1 schools that aren’t either closed or D2.


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To be fair though, we were projecting a 20% increase in freshman class size vs last year up until the faculty strike authorization vote...then it dropped off a cliff. The state finally has a budget now (obviously not in great financial shape still, but the "bleeding has stopped" in that regard), the faculty now have a multi-year contract ,and measures are being taken to help make the university more financially stable given the current funding level. I wouldn't be surprised if our 2019 class numbers are better barring any other craziness.

I don't know that we'll ever be back where we were when I was in school (~12k), but if we can find a sustainable level closer to 8-10k students, I think we'll be able to stick around at the same level of athletics that we've been at for a while.

I can't say it hasn't been scary though. WIU is not just my football team, it's also my employer, my wife's employer, and has essentially been my home for my entire life. Much of my family lives here...both sets of my kids grandparents are here...and I can't even fathom having to move away.

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[Thumper 76]

Isn't this school known for solid academics? If they have the money, what would be the issue?
For SD schools, it’s putting competition squarely in your most prized market. Not only that, you would be adding a third DI school to a state with less than 900,000 people, all within an hour of one town. It would be private so it wouldn’t affect state funding, but it would certainly affect fundraising efforts as well as recruiting. It also somewhat brings back the old DII conference days, which none of the Dakota schools moved up to experience. The Sioux Falls media have a massive hard on over this though, even if from a bunch of different viewpoints it’s not even started as far as conference invites, fundraising, etc.



Not really.

Money is always an issue for a school that has 1800 students and is so city licked it literally can’t expand.

Augie is probably the 10th most popular college in their own city and definitely 4th in terms of SD schools that are supported in that city behind SDSU USD and even USF.


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So much this. They have been capitalizing on have far less competition with the major Dakota schools moving up. I really hope this doesn’t happen though. Barf.



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[clenz]

Seriously. Go look at Augie on the map of Sioux Falls


https://goo.gl/maps/ufkKyGNKA392

The entire campus

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180609/b67b1ff59dc1947c1b1b3ab68ab35b37.png

They are so cramped to begin with. They can’t grow their student body without going full Liberty and GCU and whoring themselves out for online diploma mill status. The campus is 100 acres. For reference SDSU is 300 , USD is 275, NDSU is 275, UND is 550, UNI is 1000.

Drake has a larger campus footprint and they are squarely in a residential neighborhood of a city of a million people. This is Drake’s entire campus.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180609/a1fa8581a20ad57f13f02a808c72e4ac.png

It’s not as though it’s a D2 that has 10-12k students like the public dakotas the moved up and had towns that were basically developed because of the schools existing. Sioux Falls exists and Augie is basically nothing other than one of the little fish that swims around in whales or sharks that just leaches on the algae on them. If it were to close it’s doors it would cause about a month of protests and Sioux Falls would continue as normal. 98% of the city and 99.99% of the region wouldn’t know any different.

The money? Man it’s gonna cost a pretty penny to move up. Student fees won’t do it. 1. They won’t pass at a place like Augie. 2. If they did there’s not enough students to take money from. The D3 Augustana College in Illinois has nearly 1000 more students.

From an athletics stand point? I’ve covered this elsewhere but holy damn there isn’t not enough talent up there to support the existing D1 schools as actual D1 talented teams. No way another can actually be supported. 5 D1 schools in 2 states with a total combined population under 1.5m. Not only that they are all along the same internet state just hours apart on the extreme edge of the states. Not only that USD, AU and SDSU are all within a 2.6 hour stretch of road. The surrounding areas are desolate for population. The Iowa county closest to SD has 10000 total people in it. Sioux Falls metro has more people (250k) than the entire population for probably an hour or two in every direction combined.

This is insane but it’s because the SL is desperate for members, especially baseball.



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[mmiller_34]

Seriously. Go look at Augie on the map of Sioux Falls
lThe campus is 100 acres. For reference SDSU is 300 , USD is 275, NDSU is 275, UND is 550, UNI is 1000.


Im not going to piss and moan much about this because fighting about how many acres your university is probably the bottom of the barrel in terms of off-season dick measuring.

however, I’ve been to UNI’s campus many times. I’ve never had the impression that it holds three times amount of land as SDSU or NDSU. Perhaps the numbers you found did not include all of the surround farmland that SDSU uses?

SDSU’s botanical gardens is in itself 65 acres (which is funny that it is almost the size as Augie’s entire campus)

Here is a better break down of the land SDSU holds: https://www.sdstate.edu/facilities-and-services/sdsu-facilities-and-services-facts

Back to the original point though. Comparing acres doesn’t make a whole lot of sense because the focuses of universities are different. Augie doesn’t need a whole lot of land (they are not a Ag school). If they wanted to have more students they can simply build taller dorms and taller education buildings to house more classrooms.

[clenz]

I used official numbers from each schools US News University Report. UNIs campus is actually quite large. It makes up about a quarter of Cedar Falls and basically the entire SW corner of it. I didn’t count farm land because that’s not usable for university growth if needed. If that is included SDSU is at 363 acres. Those numbers represent actual campus size. Not just land owned.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180609/b19196c25ec2d55ca5c87a4bbb73b963.png

The SE corner of the campus is still houses and the environmental studies/GIS/Construction Management buildings. The field to the west of the dome are about to get turned into a new on campus home for soccer, rugby, softball and renovated football practice fields. UNI is also buying rundown slumlord housing right on the edge of campus and building apartment style dorms to get people paying board on campus. And it’s working.

The reason for pulling those numbers is it shows growth capability. If you’re a institution that has 100 acres that is already completely city locked with no expansion ability there is no chance to grow your university. That’s a major limitation in a move to D1- especially when you only have 1800 to begin with.

There are very few D1 schools under 2k enrollment, and almost none of them have any kind of real athletic success. It’s just a massive hill to climb. And to do so in such a sparsely populated area with so few D1 athletes with so many D1 schools already recruiting that area? Woof.

They are doing well in the D2 level because the big dogs in the area moved out to D1 leaving all of the kids who can’t qualify for the D1 level (yes, that’s a thing) and down transfers and all the other loopholes D2s pull that D1s can’t.


It would be like one of the 20 NAIA or D3s in Iowa trying to move up to D1. Because Augie is exactly like all of them. Same enrollment. Same student profiles. Same recruiting grounds. Same campus size. It’s just silly. In terms of undergrad enrollment, based on number I can find (which I admit are a like 4 years old) they are going to be one of the 7 smallest D1 schools in the country. According to their 17/18 numbers they had 1,699 undergrads. That’s 8th. And assuming none of the others from this list grew at all. I’d guess they would be the 5th or 6th smallest. As I said this kid is older and Centenary moved D3

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180609/43cdf23f7e364b6ba56d3bfcfc539948.png


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[mmiller_34]

Okay. Again though, I think when you compare acres it can be misleading. You can always build “up” instead of “out”.

Honestly, I think the infrastructure would be a smaller hurdle for Augie to increase their size then would be increasing their acceptance rates while maintaining their current quality of students.

For the record, I really don’t want to see Augie move to D-I

Side note: What was Centenary ever doing in D-I?

[ST_Lawson]

Side note: What was Centenary ever doing in D-I?

failing....lots of failing mostly

[Laker]

For the record, I really don’t want to see Augie move to D-I

Side note: What was Centenary ever doing in D-I?

I don't want Augie to move either. Some of it is for selfish reasons- others is just practicality.

Centenary was quite well known in the 70s for basketball because of Robert Parrish. Way back in the 1920s they had an unbeaten football team. Then they dropped the sport for good in WW2. For quite some time they were the smallest school enrollment wise in D1.

I collect baseball caps- couldn't find one of theirs anywhere. Emailed the bookstore- nothing. Emailed the head baseball coach- nothing. Emailed the college president- got a positive answer right away and a cap not long after. Then they dropped down to D3.

[clenz]

Okay. Again though, I think when you compare acres it can be misleading. You can always build “up” instead of “out”.

Honestly, I think the infrastructure would be a smaller hurdle for Augie to increase their size then would be increasing their acceptance rates while maintaining their current quality of students.

For the record, I really don’t want to see Augie move to D-I

Side note: What was Centenary ever doing in D-I?

How are they going to build up? Just add stories to existing buildings that are decades and decades old? Where do they house all these new students? Where does the classroom space come from? You can’t build up until you can build out for space to build up.




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[mmiller_34]

failing....lots of failing mostly

They beat us in MBB in our early D-I days. That was embarrassing. We were trash.

[mmiller_34]

How are they going to build up? Just add stories to existing buildings that are decades and decades old? Where do they house all these new students? Where does the classroom space come from? You can’t build up until you can build out for space to build up.




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Well, if you have ever been on Augie’s campus (I lived there for 2 years—wasn’t a student). There is room to build new dorms. Additionally, there are two old dorm buildings on the southwest side of campus that are not very big. They could tear one down and replace. Also the oldest dorm building is East Hall which is infested with bats and I’m pretty sure a condemned building. It’s been a debate on campus on what to do with that building for a while. It’s a pretty building on the outside, but inside is in some trouble.

The green space in the middle of campus takes much of the room on the south end of campus. If they were determined to add infrastructure, this is where they would do it.

Also, parking lots. A more creative solution for parking could be done if needed to get rid of a couple lots for buildings.

Yes, expensive, but Augie could pay for it if they needed to. It’s not like they are hurting for money. If Sanford wants Augie to go D-I and they outlined the infrastructure needs; you know he would pay for it.

They built a rather large addition to their science center on the southeast side of their campus about 3 years ago.

[ST_Lawson]

They beat us in MBB in our early D-I days. That was embarrassing. We were trash.

Meh...upsets in basketball seem to happen a bit more than in a sport like football. It's pretty obvious who has come out on top in the long run, and it ain't the team who has a ~.500 record in DIII over the last two years.

Also Clenz...regarding acreage calculations...what's the policy on university golf courses and agricultural facilities that are not crop fields (sheep/cattle barns and pens, greenhouses, etc.)?

[BisonBacker]

I wouldn't even say they are known for academics. It's a private school and you get a private school education, beyond that it is no big deal. USD Business School and SDSU Engineering are a much bigger deal than anything Augie has.

This wouldn't go anywhere if the Sanford money tentacles weren't sunk into the Dakota schools and the Summit League so deep. Sanford has the money and if they want Augie in they can surely twist the Dakotas and Summit into going along with it, even if it is not in any of our best interest to do so. I don't know, maybe the non-profit Sanford should cut the price of their health care services rather than taking $100 million of profits and buying themselves an athletic department.

Sanford has about as much influence on the decision the Summit league accept Augie as I do on swaying Trumps summit with North Korea xcoffeex

[mmiller_34]

Meh...upsets in basketball seem to happen a bit more

Haha yeah... except when Centenary (and everybody else) was beating us it really wasn’t an upset at that time :(

[mmiller_34]

Sanford has about as much influence on the decision the Summit league accept Augie as I do on swaying Trumps summit with North Korea xcoffeex

Agreed. And if it Sanford does happen to hold that influence, it’s time to get out.

[Thumper 76]

Sanford has about as much influence on the decision the Summit league accept Augie as I do on swaying Trumps summit with North Korea xcoffeex
On the league office? I agree completely. On the individual schools in the Dakotas? That’s a different equation entirely. They are the biggest donors for two of the four for sure, no telling what they might try to do to force the Dakota schools to go to bat for Augie, if they really are dead set on it happening. If the Dakota schools give the ok I doubt the rest of the conference will be against it, unfortunately.

Agreed. And if it Sanford does happen to hold that influence, it’s time to get out.

I agree, but I’m more worried about the influence their $$$$ could have on each individual school. I’m of the opinion of Augie gets in its time for SDSU to start figuring out how to get into a better conference, with or without the yotes and bison.


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[Laker]

Here is the story on Sanford donating 5 million to Maverick basketball.

http://www.msumavericks.com/news/2016/12/7/general-minnesota-state-athletics-receives-5-million-gift-commitment-for-scholarship-endowment-from-sanford-health.aspx?path=general

[FargoBison]

99.999999% chance of NGTH to NGTH

The east voting bloc would either a) prevent this or b) ensure it was one less trip west on the rotation schedule. You're telling me that, YSU, ISUr, ISUb, WIU, and SIU want to add a footprint further west? If anything, it would be Murray St as the MVC would push for this over the Summit pushing for Sanford University to join. I do not know anyone who wants them in the Summit and/or MVFC. You saw how much the Dakota schools wanted GFCC, you think we want more trash joining? Might as well restart the NCC if that were the case.


The east voting bloc would be the least of their concerns....NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD and UNI aren't going to be for adding a garbage program that is just going to leach off recruits. Augie would bring absolutely zero to the MVFC, they make UND look like James Madison. If they were added I would refer to them as the Augie Leaches because that is all they will be.

[F'N Hawks]

On the league office? I agree completely. On the individual schools in the Dakotas? That’s a different equation entirely. They are the biggest donors for two of the four for sure, no telling what they might try to do to force the Dakota schools to go to bat for Augie, if they really are dead set on it happening. If the Dakota schools give the ok I doubt the rest of the conference will be against it, unfortunately.


I agree, but I’m more worried about the influence their $$$$ could have on each individual school. I’m of the opinion of Augie gets in its time for SDSU to start figuring out how to get into a better conference, with or without the yotes and bison.


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Sanford asks for ALOT in exchange for their donation, which is why UND turned it down. This is becoming quite obvious that they are gaining minor influence on the future of the Summit League.

[FargoBison]

Sanford must own the SF media because nobody seems to be willing to deliver the cold hard dose of reality that Kelby and his little power trip desperately need.

[Thumper 76]

Sanford must own the SF media because nobody seems to be willing to deliver the cold hard dose of reality that Kelby and his little power trip desperately need.

Sanford doesn’t have to own them. They have such a hard on about the SLT being in Sioux Falls and the thought about a DI school there so it can be “their” school they don’t need anyone to give them a narrative. It’s asinine.


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[Laker]

Sanford asks for ALOT in exchange for their donation, which is why UND turned it down. This is becoming quite obvious that they are gaining minor influence on the future of the Summit League.

What was Sanford going to give to UND?

[F'N Hawks]

What was Sanford going to give to UND?

The same 10 million it gave to the others. Would have been for the indoor facility.

[Laker]

The same 10 million it gave to the others. Would have been for the indoor facility.

I'm still trying to figure out the Mankato connection. Sanford has nothing near there last time I checked- Mayo is there.

[BigGoosie13]

I'm still trying to figure out the Mankato connection. Sanford has nothing near there last time I checked- Mayo is there.
Check the 8th paragraph of the linked you posted, I'm guessing that is the Sanford connection.

[JacksFan40]

The east voting bloc would be the least of their concerns....NDSU, SDSU, UND, USD and UNI aren't going to be for adding a garbage program that is just going to leach off recruits. Augie would bring absolutely zero to the MVFC, they make UND look like James Madison. If they were added I would refer to them as the Augie Leaches because that is all they will be.
As you said, Augie is worthless in football, I'd rather bring USF into the MVFC than Augie. At least USF can get into the D2 Top 25.

[JacksFan40]

Sanford doesn’t have to own them. They have such a hard on about the SLT being in Sioux Falls and the thought about a DI school there so it can be “their” school they don’t need anyone to give them a narrative. It’s asinine.


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It's typical Sioux Falls wanting all the attention. They want all the High School State Basketball Tournaments to be moved their. Which is stupid since I enjoy Rapid City's Arena and Northern State's arena was a fun place to watch the B's this year.

[Thumper 76]

Sanford asks for ALOT in exchange for their donation, which is why UND turned it down. This is becoming quite obvious that they are gaining minor influence on the future of the Summit League.

With what you got going on with the current set up with the Engelstads, I’m not so sure it wasn’t without their input the decision was made, or if you didn’t want two big donors trying to make demands.


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[Bisonoline]

Sanford asks for ALOT in exchange for their donation, which is why UND turned it down. This is becoming quite obvious that they are gaining minor influence on the future of the Summit League.

What specifically do they ask for?

[Model Citizen]

It looks like Augie and UMKC are in a turtle race to join the Summit. Who wins?

Or will the Summit take them both, anticipating another defection to the Horizon League?

[clenz]

I'm still trying to figure out the Mankato connection. Sanford has nothing near there last time I checked- Mayo is there.

Doesn’t have to be. Sanford has been trying, well successfully, taking over all of Sioux Falls and now the region for years.

I remember spending tons of time at either/both McKinnon and Sanford growing up due to various family health issues or friends. Even as a child in the 90s and as I started to understand things through HS in the early 00s I remember the “conspiracy theory” being thrown out there that Sanford was eventually just going to own Sioux Falls and eventually the state of SD. Sounds like things haven’t changed since I moved.

So in the topic on if I’ve ever been to AUs campus, yes. I grew up in NW Iowa less than an hour from Sioux Falls. I spent almost all my free time in Sioux Falls. Pretty much every weekend. 99% of the people from my HS went to/go to SDSU, USF or Augie. I remember USF being SFC and Augie being a college. Unlike most non-Dakota fans (specifically SD schools) I actually know Sioux Falls really....really....really well. I grew up going to Sioux Falls Arena to Stampede and Storm games. Going to the Birdcage for Canaries games. Going to Sky Force games. Scheels having two locations - one in the mall and one on (I believe) Minnesota and 41st.



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[clenz]

It looks like Augie and UMKC are in a turtle race to join the Summit. Who wins?

Or will the Summit take them both, anticipating another defection to the Horizon League?

I think, and have theorized for a while, they take UMKC and now probably Augie. The line island over in Indiana won’t last long, and I’m not sure WIU is long for this new western footprint given their enrollment issues and state funding issues.


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[FargoBison]

I'm still not sold on Augie being in but I'm not sure if the SD schools have the stones to do what they need to do and block it.

Their presidents should be pressing Douple hard to bring in UMKC and then be like the MVC with Murray State and leave Augie in the on deck spot. They aren't going anywhere.

[JSUBison]

What specifically do they ask for?

Star of David

[POD Knows]

What specifically do they ask for?Removal of all of the "Fighting Sioux" logos from school property and the Ralph???

[IBleedYellow]

Sanford probably saw that the REA gets 52% of all UNDs ticket revenue, and figured it'd be worth a shot to ask for the other 48%.

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[Laker]

I had missed this story entirely- that the Summit offices were moving to the Sanford Sports Complex.

https://www.sanfordpentagon.com/news_article/show/920685?referrer_id=844470

[SDFS]

What was Sanford going to give to UND?

Sanford bought their way onto the campus of NDSU.

What started out as a handshake agreement ended because of Sanford's money.

"In response to NDSU's announced future direction, Innovis Health leadership decided that to continue the current relationship for any period of time, knowing its eventual outcome, would be completely counter to the spirit that the decades-long relationship had been founded upon. Therefore, Innovis Health has elected to terminate their almost 50 year relationship with NDSU effective June 30, 2010.

"Commenting on this decision, Dr. Greg Glasner, Innovis Health President, stated, "it is with deep disappointment that Innovis Health makes this announcement after decades of commitment and investment of personnel, medical services, equipment and scholarships to the NDSU student athletes and sports programs". He added Innovis Health will be working with NDSU Athletic Department training staff to transition out of the program over the next 60 days."

http://www.inforum.com/content/innovis-health-terminates-team-physician-relationship-ndsu

It will be interesting to see what future impacts of UND joining the Summit League brings to the campus in Grand Forks.

[SDFS]

The same 10 million it gave to the others. Would have been for the indoor facility.

http://www.undsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=13500&ATCLID=205670698

Altru Health System has pledged a $10 million gift to the University of North Dakota through the UND Foundation in support of a sports medicine partnership between Altru and UND. According to UND President Robert Kelley, $9 million will serve as the leadership gift for a new UND Athletics Complex, an indoor practice and competition facility on campus.

http://www.iconarchitects.com/projects/sports/und-ahpc.html

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=27771&stc=1

[Yote 53]

On the league office? I agree completely. On the individual schools in the Dakotas? That’s a different equation entirely. They are the biggest donors for two of the four for sure, no telling what they might try to do to force the Dakota schools to go to bat for Augie, if they really are dead set on it happening. If the Dakota schools give the ok I doubt the rest of the conference will be against it, unfortunately.


I agree, but I’m more worried about the influence their $$$$ could have on each individual school. I’m of the opinion of Augie gets in its time for SDSU to start figuring out how to get into a better conference, with or without the yotes and bison.


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Thumper, you and I are unified when it comes to the subject of a D1 Augustana. The part I bolded, if Sanford uses it's influence on USD and SDSU to get Augie in the conference, if that happens neither one of us are ever getting out of the conference. You think Sanford would allow that to happen? Sanford also has given a ton of money to NDSU and has their name on a building up there too (the SHAC). If Bison fans think they would escape the Summit they are mistaken as well. Where NDSU is UND is now and they are not going to split up now that they are reunited in a conference. Point being, this Augustana thing affects all of us, and not in a positive way.

[Model Citizen]

I heard they are renaming the Summit. It's going to be the Sanford Conference.

[uni88]

I heard they are renaming the Summit. It's going to be the Sanford & Sons Conference.

FYP

[Laker]

FYP

"I'm coming, Elizabeth!"

[Bisonoline]

FYP

Now thats funny.

[SDFS]

I think, and have theorized for a while, they take UMKC and now probably Augie. The line island over in Indiana won’t last long, and I’m not sure WIU is long for this new western footprint given their enrollment issues and state funding issues.


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I am still hoping for UNC and UMKC if/when IPFW leaves:

DU - UNC
ORU - UMKC
UND - NDSU
USD - SDSU
UNO - WIU

[clenz]

I am still hoping for UNC and UMKC if/when IPFW leaves:

DU - UNC
ORU - UMKC
UND - NDSU
USD - SDSU
UNO - WIU

I’ve talked with others holding out for UNC and SUU to start SL Football. I’ve always questioned if those schools have any interest in leaving the big sky. WIU certainly ain’t sticking around for a travel budget like that. You think the big sky travel cost hurt und. Wait until similar travel kicks in at WII where there’s no money coming from the state and enrollment is down to about 800 kids coming in this year.


In terms of just UNC, I can’t see it from a MVFC perspective working out. The MVFC has said 12 is the new target but the 12th will be a MVC add, 99%. I don’t see the Big Sky parking UNC football.




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[ST_Lawson]

I’ve talked with others holding out for UNC and SUU to start SL Football. I’ve always questioned if those schools have any interest in leaving the big sky. WIU certainly ain’t sticking around for a travel budget like that. You think the big sky travel cost hurt und. Wait until similar travel kicks in at WII where there’s no money coming from the state and enrollment is down to about 800 kids coming in this year.


In terms of just UNC, I can’t see it from a MVFC perspective working out. The MVFC has said 12 is the new target but the 12th will be a MVC add, 99%. I don’t see the Big Sky parking UNC football.




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Just a guess...Murray State?

[SDFS]

I’ve talked with others holding out for UNC and SUU to start SL Football. I’ve always questioned if those schools have any interest in leaving the big sky. WIU certainly ain’t sticking around for a travel budget like that. You think the big sky travel cost hurt und. Wait until similar travel kicks in at WII where there’s no money coming from the state and enrollment is down to about 800 kids coming in this year.

In terms of just UNC, I can’t see it from a MVFC perspective working out. The MVFC has said 12 is the new target but the 12th will be a MVC add, 99%. I don’t see the Big Sky parking UNC football.

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Summit League would have six: UND/NDSU/USD/SDSU/WIU/UNC for football. If UNC moved over to the Summit they would have a rival and travel partner within 1 hour travel time with DU. Something that they don't have in the Big Sky. UND and UNC were protected rivals in Big Sky. That is the best they could come up with. Plus, UNC has some history coming from NCC and a couple national championships.

For me the Summit League has to get UNC and UMKC. The DII schools are fallbacks at best. Even though I think that I am more positive on Augie than most on this board. In general, Sioux Falls loves Sioux Falls and the names you are talking about.. will make sure if Augie moves it will be done right. Take a look at SDSU and USD.. 20 years did anyone in the state see that coming. Look at what they have done. Sioux Falls is the largest city in South Dakota and I don't think the city has been completely pulled forward into DI sports like Fargo... look at all the fans of NDSU that not associated with schools other than living in Fargo. I think Augie could be very successful if they moved up.

[Model Citizen]

12 a target for the MVFC would mean 2 more, right? Murray and SEMO, perhaps?

The day may come when the OVC will really, really want Morehead State football to return.

[clenz]

UND makes 11 in 2020. Thus the push for a 12th. Patty V has said as much and it will become a de facto division set up. Just unsure if it will be Summit/MVC or a geo split. Which is close to a conference alignment anyway.

Odds on favorite is Murray State, but the OVC isn’t going to play nice with a 2 year transition like the Big Sky is.

I half believe the MVFC and OVC May end up trading Murray for WIU - which would open a spot for UNC in that expansion/protection scenario.
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[BisonFan02]

UND makes 11 in 2020. Thus the push for a 12th. Patty V has said as much and it will become a de facto division set up. Just unsure if it will be Summit/MVC or a geo split. Which is close to a conference alignment anyway.

Odds on favorite is Murray State, but the OVC isn’t going to play nice with a 2 year transition like the Big Sky is.

I half believe the MVFC and OVC May end up trading Murray for WIU - which would open a spot for UNC in that expansion/protection scenario.
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WIU in the OVC for everything?


I've said this before but whatever. IF NDSU plans on staying in the FCS, it needs a healthy Summit....MVFC be damned. 1 of 2 things happens (or 3 if status quo)....Summit implodes and NDSU starts conference hunting. Any guesses how that would go? or 2.....Summit changes mission to attract more stable dance partners. Any guesses how?

[JacksFan40]

WIU in the OVC for everything?


I've said this before but whatever. IF NDSU plans on staying in the FCS, it needs a healthy Summit....MVFC be damned. 1 of 2 things happens (or 3 if status quo)....Summit implodes and NDSU starts conference hunting. Any guesses how that would go? or 2.....Summit changes mission to attract more stable dance partners. Any guesses how?
If the Summit implodes, NDSU wont go anywhere without UND and same for SDSU-USD. They won’t let the xDSU’s and UxD’s be apart. Problem is SDSU and NDSU will probably try to go together as well like when D2 to D1. It’ll be a tough sell for any conference to take 4 teams at once.

[Professor Chaos]

If the Summit implodes, NDSU wont go anywhere without UND and same for SDSU-USD. They won’t let the xDSU’s and UxD’s be apart. Problem is SDSU and NDSU will probably try to go together as well like when D2 to D1. It’ll be a tough sell for any conference to take 4 teams at once.
Who's "they"? If you're talking about Sanford I think you're really going overboard with how much pull they have. Yes, they may exert some influence to try to get Augustana into the Summit if they decide to move D1 but when it comes to finding a conference affiliation for a school that doesn't have one it's every man/school for himself. To try to force a school the size of the xDSUs or UxDs to be endure the destabilization of being a D1 independent if they don't all move as a group is suicidal... much moreso than simply trying to force a "little brother school" into the conference. If you're referring to the states themselves they obviously have a little more clout in that situation but it's still the same deal... is it better to have two destabilized state flagships or just one?

[JacksFan40]

Who's "they"? If you're talking about Sanford I think you're really going overboard with how much pull they have. Yes, they may exert some influence to try to get Augustana into the Summit if they decide to move D1 but when it comes to finding a conference affiliation for a school that doesn't have one it's every man/school for himself. To try to force a school the size of the xDSUs or UxDs to be endure the destabilization of being a D1 independent if they don't all move as a group is suicidal... much moreso than simply trying to force a "little brother school" into the conference. If you're referring to the states themselves they obviously have a little more clout in that situation but it's still the same deal... is it better to have two destabilized state flagships or just one?
I’m referring to the states. Maybe ND is different but I don’t see them letting SDSU abandon USD again.

[Professor Chaos]

I’m referring to the states. Maybe ND is different but I don’t see them letting SDSU abandon USD again.
Ok, I can see that being somewhat plausible. It could get reeeeeeally ugly though. It would be a "cutting off the nose to spite the face" type situation if the states would try to force the university's hands when it comes to conference affiliation. I'm sure ND is on par with SD when it comes to the pettiness of state politics but I'd hope that eventually they'd both understand that it's better to let the schools make their own decisions in terms of conference affiliation.

[clenz]

WIU in the OVC for everything?


I've said this before but whatever. IF NDSU plans on staying in the FCS, it needs a healthy Summit....MVFC be damned. 1 of 2 things happens (or 3 if status quo)....Summit implodes and NDSU starts conference hunting. Any guesses how that would go? or 2.....Summit changes mission to attract more stable dance partners. Any guesses how?

And again you aren’t wrong on the healthy summit but I think your idea of how to make it is rooted in complete dreams.

I’ve mentioned these, and a hundred other hang ups before, but...


1. The summit is a low major league full of low major and low-mid major schools. Almost all of whom have been D2 “recently” and it nomads their entire life as D1 - sans WIU who is just content to be at any table I think. That’s all it has ever been. Look at its history. The summit and WAC are cast offs that the MVC, Horizon, Big Sky and MWC don’t want. Yet the schools don’t want to be Summit so the league is always, and will always, be in a state of flux.

2. Who are realistic adds that stabilize? People keep saying UNC because of the D2 days. Why would UNC leave the nice comfy, stable, home of like minded mountain region peers they have joined for a conference in constant flux made up of schools along interstate 29? I don’t buy as a Denver travel partner. Denver is simply in the summer because of point 1. No one else wants them. The MVC tried to add them 5 years ago. They refused to add core MVC sports. The same thing for the WAC, Big West and WCC with them. Their only options were the WAC and Summit. Denver is also probably gone as soon as Gonzaga goes MWC and the WCC opens a spot for another private school to come in.

Weber State? Nah. They’ve been Big Sky since 68. They aren’t moving.

SUU? Maybe but they seem to have found a home they really like. I can’t imagine them, like UNC, being too eager to leave a stable home with regional universities for a bunch of schools on I29.

Your best bets are UMKC and Augie. They add regional schools that the summit is their max limit so they aren’t going to be looking to fly away. UMKC seems to have learned their lesson chasing the dream of being bigger than they are.

3. Where is your other home to move too? Based on the reality of point #2 Summit League Football and starting a whole new conference isn’t happening. You are, for better and worse, tied to UND and to a slightly lesser extent the SDs. Meaning wherever NDSU tries to find a home, it needs to be a place with at least 2 open spots. Your best bet is the Big Sky, BUT they probably don’t want/need any extra members and the travel for a Big Sky footprint? Well it nearly crippled one Dakota - the one you all claim gets the most state and student money. Imagine a school that gets shafted in funding. I’d imagine that Big Sky ship sailed about 11 years ago.

The WAC? It’s the Summit but shakier and as much travel as the Big Sky. As I’ve said before the best bet is a WAC/Summit merger but people seem to hate it, even though it’s the best bet at stability.

The MVC? Nope.

The Horizon? Maybe but nope. They do want to get to 14 teams according to their commissioner, but they have no interest in going west. They are looking to fill the gap between the MVC and A10 in terms of geography. They also have no interest in football first schools. Or football schools at all. WIU is the only one with football I’ve heard rumored and that was simply a geo rumor based on the idea the also had a built in home for football in the MVFC that wouldn’t be impacted.


As much as Augie shouldn’t be D1. As many reasons as them going Summit could negatively impact the Dakotas - they and UMKC go a long damn way in stabilizing the conference. Believe it or not (and it’s tough for some NDSU fans to hear) there isn’t anyone lining up for your football program. AAMoF at “this level” of conference realignment dumping significant portions of your budget into football and leaving your other sports (mainly MBB, WBB and VB) hanging by thread budgets is seen as a negative. Football isn’t a revenue generator for the conferences or schools. Basketball is.

Any conference that may look at your football - and there isn’t an FBS doing so just to be clear - is going to cross you off instantly because your lack of funding those sports.

It sucks to hear because Augie moving up makes no sense in many regards (I certainly don’t think they should) but for stability purposes they make sense.

Your only other potential option is to get a head of the Horizon and grab UWGB and UWM. Both of those have their draw backs as well (UWM is a dumpster fire of an AD right now and for the last decade). UWM is clearly looking at. New homes given their public flirtation with the MVC who ended up laughing at how they are run. They may take a run at a Summit invite, which could bring GB with them.


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[clenz]

If the Summit implodes, NDSU wont go anywhere without UND and same for SDSU-USD. They won’t let the xDSU’s and UxD’s be apart. Problem is SDSU and NDSU will probably try to go together as well like when D2 to D1. It’ll be a tough sell for any conference to take 4 teams at once.

This guy gets it.

You won’t be looking for a home for one. It will be a home for AT LEAST 2. If not 4.

If the Summit implodes
IPFW ends up Horizon or D2
WIU ends up Horizon or OVC and I think the MVC would kick in help to get them to the Horizon for MVFC purposes
Denver WAC or WCC
UNO ends up WAC
ORU ends up WAC

The only 4 left are the Dakota’s who will feel above going to the WAC - which would be a stable home. Why do I think they think they are too good for the WAC? There seems to be a consensus among their fans they don’t want WAC schools in the Summit.

This is all why I think if Augie isn’t something you want and you can’t convince the UW schools to move over, your best bet it’s creating a WAC merger.


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[Yote 53]

I’m referring to the states. Maybe ND is different but I don’t see them letting SDSU abandon USD again.

Or vice versa if USD were to get an offer to move somewhere else. What am I talking about? That's already happened. USD received an invite to the Big Sky and were set to leave the Summit. A few calls here and there, a little pressure applied here and there, and USD stays in the Summit and gains entry into the MVFC.

The 4 schools are now linked and I don't see one of them breaking away very easily. It would have to be for something so big it is a no-brainer. Competitive balance will keep one school from running too far ahead of the others. Even given NDSU's football success the Bison have still lost to both USD and SDSU in recent years.

[clenz]

The 4 schools are now linked and I don't see one of them breaking away very easily. It would have to be for something so big it is a no-brainer. Competitive balance will keep one school from running too far ahead of the others. Even given NDSU's football success the Bison have still lost to both USD and SDSU in recent years.
This is well said. Officially or not all 4 Dakotas are now linked.

NDSU and SDSU linked in 03.
UND and USD later even if ending up in different conferences.

USD ended up with SDSU and NDSU. Meaning USD and SDSU are tightly linked given politics and by proxy NDSU due to the transitional link. UNd moving to the Summit - and political pressure - means NDSU and UND are now tied. Meaning UND is tied to the SDs.

Outside of a MWC or higher invite to any of them you all appear to be “stuck together” for better and/or worse.

It gives some strengths, but does create potential limitations.



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[IBleedYellow]

But none of us want UND. They were happy wasting away money doing their own thing - and of all the schools they are not like minded at all.

Hockey drives their University. Literally. 52% of their ticket sales (football included!) go to a private organization that runs their athletic department. Sadly because of politics they are stuck with us now, but they really should be back in D2 so that they can have their D1 hockey hopes.

[JacksFan40]

This is well said. Officially or not all 4 Dakotas are now linked.

NDSU and SDSU linked in 03.
UND and USD later even if ending up in different conferences.

USD ended up with SDSU and NDSU. Meaning USD and SDSU are tightly linked given politics and by proxy NDSU due to the transitional link. UNd moving to the Summit - and political pressure - means NDSU and UND are now tied. Meaning UND is tied to the SDs.

Outside of a MWC or higher invite to any of them you all appear to be “stuck together” for better and/or worse.

It gives some strengths, but does create potential limitations.



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Throw in Augie and you may as well create an all Dakota conference. Throw in the other D2’s like Sioux Falls and Minot State for good measure.

[JacksFan40]

Or vice versa if USD were to get an offer to move somewhere else. What am I talking about? That's already happened. USD received an invite to the Big Sky and were set to leave the Summit. A few calls here and there, a little pressure applied here and there, and USD stays in the Summit and gains entry into the MVFC.

The 4 schools are now linked and I don't see one of them breaking away very easily. It would have to be for something so big it is a no-brainer. Competitive balance will keep one school from running too far ahead of the others. Even given NDSU's football success the Bison have still lost to both USD and SDSU in recent years.
USD would’ve ended up like UND in the Big Sky. Crippled due to the costs of traveling. When the UxD’s moved up to D1 this was inevitable. The Dakota’s aren’t big enough population wise for 2 teams in each state, let alone SD having 3 all within about 2-3 hours of each other. A West River D1 who plays in the Big Sky would’ve worked nicely. But Black Hills State and SD Mines aren’t good or big enough for D1.

[clenz]

Throw in Augie and you may as well create an all Dakota conference. Throw in the other D2’s like Sioux Falls and Minot State for good measure.

If you want stability in the summit the best/only way is to take schools that are close together to keep travel down (due to schools you’d attract being smaller and lower budget) with realistic aspirations and understanding of where they fit in the D1 world. Conferences like the WAC and Summit become unstable when members have significantly different ideas (and misunderstandings) of where they fit.

Schools like Augie, MSU Mankato, Sioux Falls, UNO, UMKC, etc... would give that. Recreate the NCC at the D1 level and buy the name from the D2 conference


SDSU
USD
NDSU
UND
Augie
Sioux Falls
MSU Mankato
Southwest Minnesota State
St Cloud State
MSU Morehead

It makes being D1 worthless and there will be zero talent for anyone to recruit but you’ll get the stability your craving. You’ll get and all sports conference (including football), you’ll get rivalries, and it’s literally everything I’ve heard NDSU fans like BF02 ask for.






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[clenz]

Or you can take the realistic approach for stability and form

UND
NDSU
SDSU
Augie
USD
UNO
UMKC
ORU
WIU
IPFW
Denver

And try to poach UWM and/or UWGB for extra protection if anything happens with IPFW, Denver or WIU.


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[Bisonator]

Lots of the same old same old hand wringing and people calling the imminent collapse of the Summit from the usual suspects. xlolx

The Summit isn't going anywhere soon and neither are the Dakota's. With the right adds it could be a solid mid-major league. Hopefully Douple does the right things and doesn't over react and listen to the sky is falling idiots on message boards.

There are big changes coming sooner or later to the NCAA. The G5 cannot continue to hemorrhage money while trying to be the P5's little brother. The MWC losing the Las Vegas bowl is going to open more eyes to the inevitable.

[clenz]

Lots of the same old same old hand wringing and people calling the imminent collapse of the Summit from the usual suspects. xlolx

The Summit isn't going anywhere soon and neither are the Dakota's. With the right adds it could be a solid mid-major league. Hopefully Douple does the right things and doesn't over react and listen to the sky is falling idiots on message boards.

There are big changes coming sooner or later to the NCAA. The G5 cannot continue to hemorrhage money while trying to be the P5's little brother. The MWC losing the Las Vegas bowl is going to open more eyes to the inevitable.

No one is calling for its collapse. You can either strengthen and add or you can stay as you are (which is already needing multiple waivers from the NCAA to not lose auto qualifier status because you don’t meet multiple requirements for keeping an AQ).

When looking at alignment there are a few realistic options. The reality is IPFW wants out and likely ends up in the HL in a year or two. That only gives you 5 baseball schools. To maintain AQ status you need 6. Losing the baseball AW also drops the summit below total number of sports that meet AQ status - which causes all AQs to disappear - and thus NCAA tournament money. UND dropped baseball so they don’t help you out in the stability play. Augie helps with baseball and buffers IPFW.

From a basketball standpoint you have 8 members, which means just 14 conference games. That’s 16 OOC games to schedule. That’s tough. The Big 10 is going to a 20 game schedule so 2 games are lost from every B10 school for OOC open dates. You get to 10 schools and you keep your double round robin and cut OOC games to 12. That’s a big difference and makes scheduling dates and filling a schedule easier. That’s where UMKC comes in. Augie and UMKC give you 10.

The extra option is to be aggressive and keep the HL and WAC from potentially poaching your members. UWM wants out of the HL. UWM has baseball. Going to 11 is a decent number. You can stick with 18 conference MBB games and play with RPI numbers or go to 20 game full double round robin and have only 10 OOC dates to worry about - ~4 of which are taken care of by your MTE. It’s how many would like to see the MVC go with adding Murray.


It’s not about predicting its demise. It’s about taking an actual, realistic, look at options...especially with Augie involved. I can’t imagine the Summit would be content with 9 for its membership number. That’s an odd place to sit, but better than 8 I guess.

And remember, it’s better for the MVFC for a healthy summit and MVC. The MVFC could survive if the Summit schools ended up having to split for whatever reason, but it wouldn’t be idea for anyone.

The reality is the Dakotas don’t have a home outside of the summit. So it’s either take steps to make sure that home is stronger or just sit back and be forced to play reaction damage control mode. It’s the same reason MVC fans aren’t real happy the admins are going “we’re good with 10 even though we have schools than want in and could get to 12”


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[Laker]

The extra option is to be aggressive and keep the HL and WAC from potentially poaching your members. UWM wants out of the HL. UWM has baseball. Going to 11 is a decent number. You can stick with 18 conference MBB games and play with RPI numbers or go to 20 game full double round robin and have only 10 OOC dates to worry about - ~4 of which are taken care of by your MTE. It’s how many would like to see the MVC go with adding Murray.

Why does UWM want out of the HL? I would think they have a natural travel partner in UWGB.

[clenz]

Why does UWM want out of the HL? I would think they have a natural travel partner in UWGB.

From what I’ve gathered with them being MVC rumored HARD last year (take it with a grain of salt) is a significant rift between the league offices and the athletic department at UWM. UWM feels the moves over the last decade or so the HL has made have not been for the best interest of all members and not enough has been done to keep the league strong. Incorrect policies put in place, lack of effort and forward thinking to drive things forward enough. Trying to make the league too focused on the Indiana/Michigan area and actively finding ways to hurt schools like Valpo, UWM, UWGB and UIC.

The league office (and to be honest everyone, including UWM fans and alumni) feel the athletic department at UWM is a complete and unmitigated disaster (and it is). Firing successful coaches. Hiring people based on nepotism, doing things to intentionally harm programs so the coach can be fired for not succeeding, budget issues, so and and so on. HL feels UWM is stepping out of line and putting unwarranted negative PR on the conference to spin it away from the AD.

UWM would also make a natural travel partner for WIU or IPFW. Sure it’s further than GB, but based on current SL membership it would work.

UWM is interesting in that they have the facilities, and potential, to be something pretty special at the MM level. They are just a disaster and no one is sure how they can actually correct anything. Their limiting factor is that they are about 27 feet from Marquette and UW-Madison is a thing. If they find “their place” and accept what they can grow into they’d be relatively solid.

They might not fit the “won’t look for a bigger home” later stability mold, but there is t anywhere that is going to poach them if they leave the HL. They won’t go back there. The MVC doesn’t want them.


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[WestCoastAggie]

From what I’ve gathered with them being MVC rumored HARD last year (take it with a grain of salt) is a significant rift between the league offices and the athletic department at UWM. UWM feels the moves over the last decade or so the HL has made have not been for the best interest of all members and not enough has been done to keep the league strong. Incorrect policies put in place, lack of effort and forward thinking to drive things forward enough. Trying to make the league too focused on the Indiana/Michigan area and actively finding ways to hurt schools like Valpo, UWM, UWGB and UIC.

The league office (and to be honest everyone, including UWM fans and alumni) feel the athletic department at UWM is a complete and unmitigated disaster (and it is). Firing successful coaches. Hiring people based on nepotism, doing things to intentionally harm programs so the coach can be fired for not succeeding, budget issues, so and and so on. HL feels UWM is stepping out of line and putting unwarranted negative PR on the conference to spin it away from the AD.

UWM would also make a natural travel partner for WIU or IPFW. Sure it’s further than GB, but based on current SL membership it would work.

UWM is interesting in that they have the facilities, and potential, to be something pretty special at the MM level. They are just a disaster and no one is sure how they can actually correct anything. Their limiting factor is that they are about 27 feet from Marquette and UW-Madison is a thing. If they find “their place” and accept what they can grow into they’d be relatively solid.

They might not fit the “won’t look for a bigger home” later stability mold, but there is t anywhere that is going to poach them if they leave the HL. They won’t go back there. The MVC doesn’t want them.


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Complete sidetone: UW-M heading over to the Summit with UMKC would clear the way for Murray State to join the MVC. Those Racers really want that conference, despite the strain on football.

[clenz]

Complete sidetone: UW-M heading over to the Summit with UMKC would clear the way for Murray State to join the MVC. Those Racers really want that conference, despite the strain on football.

I’m not sure how that would clear the way unless your talking domino effect.

But yes. Murray wants the MVC badly. The MVC mostly wants Murray but there are things that need to be cleared and cleaned up to make sure it’s a move that happens. I’d look for 2020-2021 to be the earliest it happens.


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[ST_Lawson]

From what I’ve gathered with them being MVC rumored HARD last year (take it with a grain of salt) is a significant rift between the league offices and the athletic department at UWM. UWM feels the moves over the last decade or so the HL has made have not been for the best interest of all members and not enough has been done to keep the league strong. Incorrect policies put in place, lack of effort and forward thinking to drive things forward enough. Trying to make the league too focused on the Indiana/Michigan area and actively finding ways to hurt schools like Valpo, UWM, UWGB and UIC.

Aw sweet...let's take all three that are in the HL. Let the Horizon be IN/MI, Summit can take Milwaukee, Green Bay, and UIC...Horizon League can have Fort Wayne. We'll add UMKC and be at 12 teams.
Travel partners of Milwaukee/Green Bay, UIC/WIU, UMKC/Oral Bob, and whatever the Dakotas+Omaha and Denver are doing.

Not that I think this is at all likely, but it's fun to dream, right ;)