Augustana SD discussing moving to D1, possibly joining Pioneer

[SDFS]

SDSU sponsors 19 sports to UND’s 17, you’re sure travel had nothing to do with it?

at the time UND had baseball, W Hockey, M/W Swimming and Diving and m golf. So, that would have been 22 sports at the time. I believe when they left for D1 they had 20 sports. Everyone knew that UND would need to cut sports at some point during the transition. They just were not sure which sports until they a semi-stable conference home. I do believe that UND had to add sports to join the Big Sky (I think M/W Tennis).

[SUPharmacist]

And the Summit/MVFC had to also have been UND's first choice as a conference all along, especially after USD bailed.

I believe the second part of this, but until USD backed out all I remember is UND talking up how they got into the Big Sky when NDSU didn't years earlier. It seemed like they were pumped. I would be curious to see any info that would support the claim that the Big Sky was not UND's first choice. I willingly admit, I may have totally missed it through my anti-UND bias. I didn't grow up following the rivalry and my first introduction was while I was in college during the D1 transition (hearing all the garbage from the UXDs about the mistake the XDSUs were making), and I am petty and still hold a grudge. Now that they are back together hopefully it is a good rivalry that encourages rabid fanbases. But as far as the topic at hand, Augustana, screw 'em. The Dakotas do not need another D1 program, and I hope they crash and burn.

[abc123]

I believe the second part of this, but until USD backed out all I remember is UND talking up how they got into the Big Sky when NDSU didn't years earlier. It seemed like they were pumped. I would be curious to see any info that would support the claim that the Big Sky was not UND's first choice. I willingly admit, I may have totally missed it through my anti-UND bias. I didn't grow up following the rivalry and my first introduction was while I was in college during the D1 transition (hearing all the garbage from the UXDs about the mistake the XDSUs were making), and I am petty and still hold a grudge. Now that they are back together hopefully it is a good rivalry that encourages rabid fanbases. But as far as the topic at hand, Augustana, screw 'em. The Dakotas do not need another D1 program, and I hope they crash and burn.

UND's first choice was a conference that gave it a home for their football team. That ended up being the Big Sky. I think in an ideal world, both UND/USD would have moved into the Summit/MVFC after their transition, but the MVFC made it clear they weren't interested in adding teams. They obviously made a last minute decision to add USD, however UND wasn't getting in. UND made the right choice at that point in time for their programs. They also continued to keep an open dialogue with Douple/Veverito, which is how they eventually ended up in the Summit/MVFC.

[JSUBison]

Can anyone with knowledge of the 10,000 rules and bylaws the NCAA have answer this: I heard that if six teams in a conference has a sport, that conference must sponsor that sport. If the conference has a sport played by less than six, those schools can join an affiliate conference.

Example: If Augustana joins the Summit and keeps football, by NCAA rule the Summit now has 6 conference teams that sponsor one sport (Football). Those schools WIU, USD, NDSU, SDSU, UND, and Augustana would no longer be allowed to play in the MVFC, and must play in their own home conference.

Edit, nevermind. I forgot about the Pioneer league and a couple of those schools don't play in their home conference.

[SUPharmacist]

Can anyone with knowledge of the 10,000 rules and bylaws the NCAA have answer this: I heard that if six teams in a conference has a sport, that conference must sponsor that sport. If the conference has a sport played by less than six, those schools can join an affiliate conference.

Example: If Augustana joins the Summit and keeps football, by NCAA rule the Summit now has 6 conference teams that sponsor one sport (Football). Those schools WIU, USD, NDSU, SDSU, UND, and Augustana would no longer be allowed to play in the MVFC, and must play in their own home conference.

Edit, nevermind. I forgot about the Pioneer league and a couple of those schools don't play in their home conference.

I believe some conferences have rules forcing members to have sports in their conference once a certain number of members start to sponsor a sport. I believe that is what caused the formation of Big Ten hockey.

[Yote 53]

Correct. I don't think it is an NCAA rule, I think it depends on the conference bylaws. The Big Ten had in their bylaws the member school requirement, that's what triggered the BTHC.

[clenz]

Can anyone with knowledge of the 10,000 rules and bylaws the NCAA have answer this: I heard that if six teams in a conference has a sport, that conference must sponsor that sport. If the conference has a sport played by less than six, those schools can join an affiliate conference.

Example: If Augustana joins the Summit and keeps football, by NCAA rule the Summit now has 6 conference teams that sponsor one sport (Football). Those schools WIU, USD, NDSU, SDSU, UND, and Augustana would no longer be allowed to play in the MVFC, and must play in their own home conference.

Edit, nevermind. I forgot about the Pioneer league and a couple of those schools don't play in their home conference.The MVC has
UNI
ISUR
ISUB
SIU
MOSU
Drake

as football playing members

Not only does the MVC not sponsor football - it has members playing football in 2 different conferences.

[Model Citizen]

Also, take a look at the schools in the Atlantic 10.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

I believe the second part of this, but until USD backed out all I remember is UND talking up how they got into the Big Sky when NDSU didn't years earlier. It seemed like they were pumped. I would be curious to see any info that would support the claim that the Big Sky was not UND's first choice. I willingly admit, I may have totally missed it through my anti-UND bias. I didn't grow up following the rivalry and my first introduction was while I was in college during the D1 transition (hearing all the garbage from the UXDs about the mistake the XDSUs were making), and I am petty and still hold a grudge. Now that they are back together hopefully it is a good rivalry that encourages rabid fanbases. But as far as the topic at hand, Augustana, screw 'em. The Dakotas do not need another D1 program, and I hope they crash and burn.


Let Augie move up, in fact I hope they do.

They will become another D1 counter in football...another regional cupcake that can be scheduled.

[Professor Chaos]

Fort Wayne is leaving the Summit League to go the Horizon League to the surprise of no one.

Does that give Augustana the bump they needed to get into the Summit League? The league needs a 6th baseball school to maintain their NCAA autobid.

[clenz]

WIU is already broke and not treading water. Their one regional friend is now gone


WIU isn't long for the Summit either.

Meaning they aren't long for the MVFC, and likely D1

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[JacksFan40]

Thread on SDSUFans talked about St. Thomas joining the Summit/MVFC, not sure if that’s a possibility but it’s worth looking at.
http://sdsufans.com/board/showthread.php?15771-St-Thomas-to-Summit-Missouri-Valley

[TheKingpin28]

Thread on SDSUFans talked about St. Thomas joining the Summit/MVFC, not sure if that’s a possibility but it’s worth looking at.
http://sdsufans.com/board/showthread.php?15771-St-Thomas-to-Summit-Missouri-Valley

Think about all of the recruits who would possibly choose St Thomas over the XDSUs (not worried about the UXDs as they are inferior) so they could stay closer to home and St. Thomas, academically speaking is easily a Top 200 to Top 150 school. Not a fan of that and the fact that their stadium is only 5K. They would have to potentially do some serious expansion (which is unlikely due to the surrounding buildings), but that is highly unlikely. Sure they could stay in their 5k stadium to limit fans from showing up, but I'd be in favor of moving it to US Bank and close off the upper decks. Sure this is just Football, but think about all of the other sports they will affect.

[dbackjon]

WIU is already broke and not treading water. Their one regional friend is now gone


WIU isn't long for the Summit either.

Meaning they aren't long for the MVFC, and likely D1

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Both UMKC and Omaha are closer to Macomb travel wise than Fort Wayne.

- - - Updated - - -


Thread on SDSUFans talked about St. Thomas joining the Summit/MVFC, not sure if that’s a possibility but it’s worth looking at.
http://sdsufans.com/board/showthread.php?15771-St-Thomas-to-Summit-Missouri-Valley

That would be 8 years down the road, at the earliest.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Think about all of the recruits who would possibly choose St Thomas over the XDSUs (not worried about the UXDs as they are inferior) so they could stay closer to home and St. Thomas, academically speaking is easily a Top 200 to Top 150 school. Not a fan of that and the fact that their stadium is only 5K. They would have to potentially do some serious expansion (which is unlikely due to the surrounding buildings), but that is highly unlikely. Sure they could stay in their 5k stadium to limit fans from showing up, but I'd be in favor of moving it to US Bank and close off the upper decks. Sure this is just Football, but think about all of the other sports they will affect.


Augustana has a nice FB stadium. Not big but nice.

St Thomas could probably do D1 with their wealthy alum.

[Thumper 76]

I highly doubt even if WIU leaves that Augie gets added to the MVFC. I don’t see a need for the MVFC to replace WIU should they leave after adding both UxDs.

As for St Thomas, there is rumor they’ve asked for an exemption for going to FCS level directly. Also, I doubt they steal many recruits from the Dakota schools, just like I doubt Augie does. The concern with Augie is leeching dollars form the SD schools. To get a foot in the Twin Cities as a conference for the Summit would be a huge deal.

[Laker]

Think about all of the recruits who would possibly choose St Thomas over the XDSUs (not worried about the UXDs as they are inferior) so they could stay closer to home and St. Thomas, academically speaking is easily a Top 200 to Top 150 school. Not a fan of that and the fact that their stadium is only 5K. They would have to potentially do some serious expansion (which is unlikely due to the surrounding buildings), but that is highly unlikely. Sure they could stay in their 5k stadium to limit fans from showing up, but I'd be in favor of moving it to US Bank and close off the upper decks. Sure this is just Football, but think about all of the other sports they will affect.

They could play in Allianz Stadium. That would be plenty big enough. Campus is too closed in to expand their field.

One problem with Augie's beautiful field- no lights.

[TheKingpin28]

Augustana has a nice FB stadium. Not big but nice.

St Thomas could probably do D1 with their wealthy alum.If WIU leaves the summit, they will scramble for someone who has D1 money donors and baseball.

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[TheKingpin28]

They could play in Allianz Stadium. That would be plenty big enough. Campus is too closed in to expand their field.

One problem with Augie's beautiful field- no lights.Doubt that United would want their pitch shredded to hell on a Saturday when the Loons are showing they are a playoff team and that could impact the MLS schedule. The stadium is perfect and would work out quite well, as long as the Brew Hall stays open, but St Thomas would have to be allotted probably more tickets than they would need with the aftermarket cost being some stupid number. Nice thing is the furthest seat IIRC is about 100 feet from the pitch. Front row seats for this game would suck. Club level deck would be ideal or about 10 rows back on the main bowl due to height of field vs stadium height.

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[ST_Lawson]

If WIU leaves the summit, they will scramble for someone who has D1 money donors and baseball.

Yup...with Fort Wayne leaving, the Summit has no "breathing room" for baseball. If WIU (or anyone who has baseball) leaves...the Summit is going to have some serious problems. Not saying the Summit needs WIU...just saying the Summit needs "warm bodies" w/ baseball.

[TheKingpin28]

Yup...with Fort Wayne leaving, the Summit has no "breathing room" for baseball. If WIU (or anyone who has baseball) leaves...the Summit is going to have some serious problems. Not saying the Summit needs WIU...just saying the Summit needs "warm bodies" w/ baseball.The Summit will always be a revolving door.

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[Laker]

Just watched the press conference for P-FW. Yes, the move to the Horizon is official for 2020-21.

[clenz]

Someone explain to me how this St. Thomas skipping the 13ish year process to move D1 works and why the NCAA should/would grant them that bypass?

[POD Knows]

Someone explain to me how this St. Thomas skipping the 13ish year process to move D1 works and why the NCAA should/would grant them that bypass?Pressure from the Vatican

[ST_Lawson]

Someone explain to me how this St. Thomas skipping the 13ish year process to move D1 works and why the NCAA should/would grant them that bypass?

Is St. Thomas able to throw money at the problem like Liberty did when they moved to FBS without a conference?

[clenz]

Is St. Thomas able to throw money at the problem like Liberty did when they moved to FBS without a conference?
Moving D1 FCS to D1 FBS is galaxies different than moving D3 to D1

[PAllen]

Moving D1 FCS to D1 FBS is galaxies different than moving D3 to D1

It's the same antitrust lawsuit though.

[Bisonoline]

It's the same antitrust lawsuit though.

Correct. :D

Plus there are D3 schools who play D1 hockey. I dont know if thats a compelling argument or not.

[SonuvaHenx2]

Correct. :D

Plus there are D3 schools who play D1 hockey. I dont know if thats a compelling argument or not.

And lacrosse

[dbackjon]

The D3 schools playing D1 Hockey and Lacrosse are grandfathered in - no more are allowed from the D3 ranks.



Summit will be down to 5 baseball teams, below NCAA minimums. Summit has to either get an NCAA waiver, or add another baseball team or the conference loses all auto-bids.

Options:
1) Take over the MVFC, rebrand as Summit League, with non-summit members as affiliates. No change in membership. - Con would be if the Summit added another football playing member, they would be expected to join that league as well
2) Have a non-baseball playing member start the sport
3) Add another full member that plays baseball
4) Get an affiliate in baseball only - Northern Colorado would work (they are a WAC baseball affiliate)

[clenz]

Northern Colorado would seem like the best option

Option 1 is a no go from the start. MVC isn't giving up the MVFC
Option 2 - they voted to add UND right after they dropped the sport
Option 3 is second best option but outside of Northern Colorado there isn't anyone really out there outside of waiting 6 years for an announcement of Augie/St Thomas and hope the NCAA grants the waiver for 6 years

[ST_Lawson]

Summit will be down to 5 baseball teams, below NCAA minimums. Summit has to either get an NCAA waiver, or add another baseball team or the conference loses all auto-bids.

I thought the minimum was 5 teams (as in, the Summit is safe currently, but has no "margin" if someone else leaves or drops baseball or whatever). Is that incorrect?

[Professor Chaos]

I thought the minimum was 5 teams (as in, the Summit is safe currently, but has no "margin" if someone else leaves or drops baseball or whatever). Is that incorrect?
I'm pretty sure he's right and the minimum is 6. I think the NCAA will allow a conference to retain their autobid with only 5 teams but only on a temporary 1-2 year timeline.

[ST_Lawson]

I'm pretty sure he's right and the minimum is 6. I think the NCAA will allow a conference to retain their autobid with only 5 teams but only on a temporary 1-2 year timeline.

Damn...guess we're scrambling for someone now.

[clenz]

I thought the minimum was 5 teams (as in, the Summit is safe currently, but has no "margin" if someone else leaves or drops baseball or whatever). Is that incorrect?
6 teams for an auto
6 sports with 6 teams

If you don't have 6 sports with 6 teams you lose all autobids

You can try to get a temp waiver

There are also guidelines for membership timelines required to keep autobids that the Summit constantly is breaking

The NCAA is at a turning point with the Summit. They've granted about 6 different waviers for membership over the last decade or so to avoid taking things away. At some point the NCAA is going to go "Uh...no". It won't be this time, but at some time.

I think the NCAA will also start telling the Summit to prove the teams they are taking have zero aspirations that will cause them to look outside the Summit to create stability. Doesn't sound like St. Thomas is that school

[ST_Lawson]

6 teams for an auto
6 sports with 6 teams

If you don't have 6 sports with 6 teams you lose all autobids

You can try to get a temp waiver

There are also guidelines for membership timelines required to keep autobids that the Summit constantly is breaking

The NCAA is at a turning point with the Summit. They've granted about 6 different waviers for membership over the last decade or so to avoid taking things away. At some point the NCAA is going to go "Uh...no". It won't be this time, but at some time.

I think the NCAA will also start telling the Summit to prove the teams they are taking have zero aspirations that will cause them to look outside the Summit to create stability. Doesn't sound like St. Thomas is that school

Do affiliates not count? By my count, including affiliates, the Summit League will have (after Fort Wayne leaves and UMKC rejoins) 6 or more playing schools in Basketball, Golf, Soccer, Swimming & Diving, Tennis, Indoor and Outdoor T&F (not sure if that counts as 1 or 2), Softball, and Volleyball. That's 6 full M&W sports and 2 women's sports. Baseball would only have 5, so they might lose the baseball autobid, but everything else should have 6+ teams...right?

[dbackjon]

Northern Colorado would seem like the best option

Option 1 is a no go from the start. MVC isn't giving up the MVFC
Option 2 - they voted to add UND right after they dropped the sport
Option 3 is second best option but outside of Northern Colorado there isn't anyone really out there outside of waiting 6 years for an announcement of Augie/St Thomas and hope the NCAA grants the waiver for 6 years

Getting UNC is really the best/easiest option. WAC has plenty of teams, and the travel would be less for UNC, plus a few familiar foes. And as an affiliate, no complications with other sports.

Augie would count in year 2 of transition, which could be as early as 2021. If Augie was invited, the NCAA would give a waiver that period, since the Summit has a fix for the issue.

[dbackjon]

Do affiliates not count? By my count, including affiliates, the Summit League will have (after Fort Wayne leaves and UMKC rejoins) 6 or more playing schools in Basketball, Golf, Soccer, Swimming & Diving, Tennis, Indoor and Outdoor T&F (not sure if that counts as 1 or 2), Softball, and Volleyball. That's 6 full M&W sports and 2 women's sports. Baseball would only have 5, so they might lose the baseball autobid, but everything else should have 6+ teams...right?

It is TEAM sports - Basketball, football, baseball, soccer, lacrosse, HOCKEY, etc that count.

Golf/S&D/Track don't count for this criteria

[ST_Lawson]

It is TEAM sports - Basketball, football, baseball, soccer, lacrosse, HOCKEY, etc that count.

Golf/S&D/Track don't count for this criteria

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

[Bisonoline]

It is TEAM sports - Basketball, football, baseball, soccer, lacrosse, HOCKEY, etc that count.

Golf/S&D/Track don't count for this criteria


I didnt realize that. Thanks

[dbackjon]

Another option would be to take over the NCHC - 3 of the 8 members are in the Summit League

[nodak651]

Another option would be to take over the NCHC - 3 of the 8 members are in the Summit League

Not ever gonna happen. Would completely defeat the purpose of creating the NCHC in the first place - the move to start the NCHC was done to get away from the small budget hockey schools that would have gained control of the WCHA. No way they would relinquish that control to a majority of non hockey schools, along with the NCHC profits.

I also think that six of the teams all need to be from the Summit for it to work. Pretty sure affiliates don't count.

[dbackjon]

Not ever gonna happen. Would completely defeat the purpose of creating the NCHC in the first place - the move to start the NCHC was done to get away from the small budget hockey schools that would have gained control of the WCHA. No way they would relinquish that control to a majority of non hockey schools, along with the NCHC profits.

I also think that six of the teams all need to be from the Summit for it to work. Pretty sure affiliates don't count.


Didn't think so, but it, like the MVFC, is an option.

[dbackjon]

As for affiliates, I can't see any restrictions.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D119.pdf

Section 20, starts on page 359


A multisport conference shall satisfy the following requirements: (Adopted:
1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)
(a) The conference shall sponsor a minimum of 12 Division I sports;
(b) The conference shall sponsor a minimum of six men’s sports, one of which shall be men’s basketball. In
addition to men’s basketball, the conference shall sponsor football or two other men’s team sports. A
minimum of seven members shall sponsor men’s basketball. A minimum of six members shall sponsor
five other sports, including football or two additional men’s team sports; and
(c) The conference shall sponsor a minimum of six women’s sports, one of which shall be women’s basketball.
In addition to women’s basketball, the conference shall sponsor two other women’s team sports. A
minimum of seven members shall sponsor women’s basketball. A minimum of six members shall sponsor
five other sports, including two additional women’s team sports

[Herder]

Northern Colorado would seem like the best option

Option 1 is a no go from the start. MVC isn't giving up the MVFC
Option 2 - they voted to add UND right after they dropped the sport
Option 3 is second best option but outside of Northern Colorado there isn't anyone really out there outside of waiting 6 years for an announcement of Augie/St Thomas and hope the NCAA grants the waiver for 6 years

MVC would be concerned about "giving up" the MVFC? At every turn it seems, the MVC tries to distance themselves from the MVFC, barely referring to the MVFC as affiliated to the MVC. Wouldn't seem to be much of a hardship for the MVC based on their attitude toward football. Now if the Summit teams completely pulled out of the MVFC (which would be stupid IMO), the MVFC would lose a lot of its lustre, and would be scrambling to add teams. Two weak conferences, MVC and Summit would seem to be a bad idea for all compared to 1 strong conference in the current MVFC.

[clenz]

MVC would be concerned about "giving up" the MVFC? At every turn it seems, the MVC tries to distance themselves from the MVFC, barely referring to the MVFC as affiliated to the MVC. Wouldn't seem to be much of a hardship for the MVC based on their attitude toward football. Now if the Summit teams completely pulled out of the MVFC (which would be stupid IMO), the MVFC would lose a lot of its lustre, and would be scrambling to add teams. Two weak conferences, MVC and Summit would seem to be a bad idea for all compared to 1 strong conference in the current MVFC.
MVFC existed before the Dakota's. It would exist after.

Also

By giving it completely to the Summit League it's no longer a football only conference with only "affiliate" members. It becomes a Summit sport with MVC schools as affiliates. That takes all the safety of the MVC schools in regards to football out of their hands and places them in the hands of the Summit office.

Private schools might not like football, but they are smart enough to know they need to protect the MVC football schools home stability.

[GABison]

Summit football > MVC football

[taper]

MVFC existed before the Dakota's. It would exist after.

Also

By giving it completely to the Summit League it's no longer a football only conference with only "affiliate" members. It becomes a Summit sport with MVC schools as affiliates. That takes all the safety of the MVC schools in regards to football out of their hands and places them in the hands of the Summit office.

Private schools might not like football, but they are smart enough to know they need to protect the MVC football schools home stability.

I know you love technicalities, so no, the MVFC did not exist before the xDSUs. It was the Gateway until the year we joined. Which doesn't really matter at all.

What does matter is that while the odds of the Summit sponsoring football on its own are small, it will have a far bigger impact to the MVC than if the MVFC was absorbed. MVFC is 5 MVC, 4(soon to be 5) Summit, and 1 Horizon. We need each other. If the Summit finds a new baseball member that also sponsors football it makes a lot of sense to split off.

[uni88]

I know you love technicalities, so no, the MVFC did not exist before the xDSUs. It was the Gateway until the year we joined. Which doesn't really matter at all.

What does matter is that while the odds of the Summit sponsoring football on its own are small, it will have a far bigger impact to the MVC than if the MVFC was absorbed. MVFC is 5 MVC, 4(soon to be 5) Summit, and 1 Horizon. We need each other. If the Summit finds a new baseball member that also sponsors football it makes a lot of sense to split off.My guess is WIU would prefer MVFC to Summit football.

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[Professor Chaos]

My guess is WIU would prefer MVFC to Summit football.

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As would the Dakota schools if you look purely at the constituency of a football conference with and without the MVC schools and YSU but I'd guess that if WIU or any of the Summit League schools are in danger of losing their NCAA autobid in men's basketball and sponsoring football in the Summit League would prevent that those preferences will take a back seat.

The big question is does the Horizon want WIU? They're about WIU's only other reasonable conference option other than the Summit League as far as I can tell. I haven't heard of anyone leaving the Horizon so the addition of Fort Wayne puts them at 11 members which isn't an ideal number so you'd think they'll be looking to add one more but is WIU a candidate for that spot?

[clenz]

As would the Dakota schools if you look purely at the constituency of a football conference with and without the MVC schools and YSU but I'd guess that if WIU or any of the Summit League schools are in danger of losing their NCAA autobid in men's basketball and sponsoring football in the Summit League would prevent that those preferences will take a back seat.

The big question is does the Horizon want WIU? They're about WIU's only other reasonable conference option other than the Summit League as far as I can tell. I haven't heard of anyone leaving the Horizon so the addition of Fort Wayne puts them at 11 members which isn't an ideal number so you'd think they'll be looking to add one more but is WIU a candidate for that spot?
I have a few theories that I've heard from people I trust - and I've shared here many times

1. WIU joins the Indiana schools in the Horizon to get them to 12 and stays in the MVFC. This would seem the most likely given the schools financials and the Summits want/need to add schools west of Iowa. The financial strain of travel will add up quick for WIU moving forward

2. Murray State is still a MVC target. WIU would replace Murray in the OVC. Doesn't solve a ton of the travel issues but gives them a home for all sports.


We've hashed over the idea of SLF here many times, it's not something that is smart for SL schools - or even truly an option. You WILL lose WIU with that move. Meaning you are starting a conference with only the Dakota 4. You have a conference of 8 at that point (assuming no replacement for PFW is found yet). You need at least 3 more schools with football, which would give you 11. So you'd need 4 schools. Who/where are you getting them from? You're options are Northern Colorado, Southern Utah, Weber Statem Augie, St Thomas (if they get a waiver), and....whom else? You think you can convince - and get the Big Sky to play along with - 3 schools leaving the Big Sky? Especially the schools that act as the bridge between the north and south? You won't have a choice but to deal with Augie at that point because WIU is also a baseball school - though maybe football then replaces baseball and all the Summit baseball schools affiliate over to the WAC and/or MVC

Your new all sports conference is likely
UND
NDSU
SDSU
Augie
USD
UNO
UMKC
SUU
UNC
Denver

That's 10 schools with 7 football members

To spite the MVC you lose WIU - who the MVC helps get into the Horizon League and be a "sister" of YSU who is doing the same thing to protect their members. This doesn't really hurt the MVC

The MVFC is still at 7 as well
UNI
SIU
ISUB
ISUR
MSU
WIU
YSU

There then becomes a renewed effort to grab Murray State to get to 8 football teams to help protect from a potential WIU collapse. The OVC grabs a replacement in UNA who seems to be on the OVC radar anyway

What the Summit has done is created 2 much weaker conferences out of an effort to spite the MVC schools for basically zero reason.

[ST_Lawson]

The big question is does the Horizon want WIU? They're about WIU's only other reasonable conference option other than the Summit League as far as I can tell. I haven't heard of anyone leaving the Horizon so the addition of Fort Wayne puts them at 11 members which isn't an ideal number so you'd think they'll be looking to add one more but is WIU a candidate for that spot?

I'm pretty sure nobody actually "wants" us...Summit likes that we have baseball (plus we're the last remaining founding member), but that's about it, I think.

The Horizon likes (for the most part), public non-football schools in urban areas. Green Bay, Milwaukee, UI-Chicago, Oakland (MI), Detroit Mercy (the only private school), Cleveland State, Youngstown (the only school with football), Wright State (Dayton), Northern Kentucky (essentially in a suburb of Cincinnati), IUPUI (the last I means Indianapolis), and now Fort Wayne. They all have at least regional airports fairly nearby...they all have local TV stations to give them coverage...things that WIU doesn't have. I think it'd be great if WIU could get an invite to the Horizon League, but I feel like that's pretty much a pipe dream (as would be a MVC invite)...neither is likely to happen barring other crazy shakeups. 11 isn't an ideal number, but I don't think it's enough to push the Horizon to add WIU...they'll just get by with what they have until someone better becomes available.

If they do decide to add a school, I feel like they might shoot for someone like SIU-Edwardsville. I don't know if it's really any better of a situation for SIU-E than the Ohio Valley, but they do fit the profile. It's a growing university (this last semester they actually had higher enrollment than SIU-Carbondale)...public...no football...and Edwardsville is a suburb of St. Louis, with a regional airport 15 minutes up the road and St. Louis International about 30 minutes away across the river..

[Professor Chaos]

I have a few theories that I've heard from people I trust - and I've shared here many times

1. WIU joins the Indiana schools in the Horizon to get them to 12 and stays in the MVFC. This would seem the most likely given the schools financials and the Summits want/need to add schools west of Iowa. The financial strain of travel will add up quick for WIU moving forward

2. Murray State is still a MVC target. WIU would replace Murray in the OVC. Doesn't solve a ton of the travel issues but gives them a home for all sports.


We've hashed over the idea of SLF here many times, it's not something that is smart for SL schools - or even truly an option. You WILL lose WIU with that move. Meaning you are starting a conference with only the Dakota 4. You have a conference of 8 at that point (assuming no replacement for PFW is found yet). You need at least 3 more schools with football, which would give you 11. So you'd need 4 schools. Who/where are you getting them from? You're options are Northern Colorado, Southern Utah, Weber Statem Augie, St Thomas (if they get a waiver), and....whom else? You think you can convince - and get the Big Sky to play along with - 3 schools leaving the Big Sky? Especially the schools that act as the bridge between the north and south? You won't have a choice but to deal with Augie at that point because WIU is also a baseball school - though maybe football then replaces baseball and all the Summit baseball schools affiliate over to the WAC and/or MVC

Your new all sports conference is likely
UND
NDSU
SDSU
Augie
USD
UNO
UMKC
SUU
UNC
Denver

That's 10 schools with 7 football members

To spite the MVC you lose WIU - who the MVC helps get into the Horizon League and be a "sister" of YSU who is doing the same thing to protect their members. This doesn't really hurt the MVC

The MVFC is still at 7 as well
UNI
SIU
ISUB
ISUR
MSU
WIU
YSU

There then becomes a renewed effort to grab Murray State to get to 8 football teams to help protect from a potential WIU collapse. The OVC grabs a replacement in UNA who seems to be on the OVC radar anyway

What the Summit has done is created 2 much weaker conferences out of an effort to spite the MVC schools for basically zero reason.
I'd agree that purely from a football perspective the Summit League schools would be weakening their conference home by going to Summit League football. But what would dictate that being a necessary risk is the rest of the member schools' sports, primarily men's basketball, being in a strengthened conference home. Ideally the Summit League would add another school with baseball without touching the MVFC but politics can definitely play a role.

Using Northern Colorado as a theoretical example; if the Summit League wanted to add UNC and the Big Sky says no to them being an affiliate football member does that prompt UNC to say "give our football team a home or no deal"? It's a delicate balance of power in the MVFC right now with 5 MVC schools, 5 Summit League schools, and YSU. Do the MVC schools and YSU cede power to the Summit League schools by allowing a 6th Summit League school into the MVFC? Do the Summit League schools threaten to split off from the MVFC and start Summit League Football if the MVC schools and YSU don't allow UNC in? Things could get touchy in a hurry.

[dbackjon]

Your new all sports conference is likely
UND
NDSU
SDSU
Augie
USD
UNO
UMKC
SUU
UNC
Denver

.

Why on earth would SUU sign up for that? They left the Summit to be in a Western League. They AREN'T going back.

UNC would be the only possible team to consider it, but they are very doubtful.

[nodak651]

If worst comes to worst, couldnt the summit just pay UNC to bring their baseball team over as an affiliate? Say, 75k per year for 5 years or something like that. Beats taking on a new conference member that doesnt align with the long term vision of the Dakota schools, Omaha, and Denver, or negatively impacts travel for Oral Roberts/WIU. UMKC has no vision - don't think they know what is going on AT ALL haha.

[clenz]

Why on earth would SUU sign up for that? They left the Summit to be in a Western League. They AREN'T going back.

UNC would be the only possible team to consider it, but they are very doubtful.
I agree. I was using those as those are the only "semi-reasonable" school I could come up with to form a Summit League football set up.

NDSU fans (mostly NDSU fans but there have been a few SDSU/USD as well) have challenged me for years every time i go "Who joins? Who do you go after?". I challenge them to start to sit down and put thought into who they could actually attract, none of them every have. You have more direct knowledge of those schools from being a Big Sky fan as long as you have.

NDSU, SDSU, and USD didn't move to the Big Sky to avoid traveling to Colorado, Utah, etc. for conference events. UND left the Big Sky, in large part, to the travel and having little to nothing in common with schools out there. Trying to form a new conference around the Rockies is...a complete 180

There isn't 3 schools for them to grab. Only real hope is St Thomas gets a waiver, the SD schools suck up pride and accept Augie and then pray UNC wants to join - or make a ton of concessions to get Mankato or SWMNSU to a D1.

They also don't realize that WIU isn't going to live in a conference where they are a flight from everyone for every sport. Adding trips to Colorado (on top of Denver), another trip to Sioux Falls, a trip to Minneapolis, a trip to Utah (doubtful), etc. isn't going to appeal to WIU.

[uni88]

I agree. I was using those as those are the only "semi-reasonable" school I could come up with to form a Summit League football set up.

NDSU fans (mostly NDSU fans but there have been a few SDSU/USD as well) have challenged me for years every time i go "Who joins? Who do you go after?". I challenge them to start to sit down and put thought into who they could actually attract, none of them every have. You have more direct knowledge of those schools from being a Big Sky fan as long as you have.

NDSU, SDSU, and USD didn't move to the Big Sky to avoid traveling to Colorado, Utah, etc. for conference events. UND left the Big Sky, in large part, to the travel and having little to nothing in common with schools out there. Trying to form a new conference around the Rockies is...a complete 180

There isn't 3 schools for them to grab. Only real hope is St Thomas gets a waiver, the SD schools suck up pride and accept Augie and then pray UNC wants to join - or make a ton of concessions to get Mankato or SWMNSU to a D1.

They also don't realize that WIU isn't going to live in a conference where they are a flight from everyone for every sport. Adding trips to Colorado (on top of Denver), another trip to Sioux Falls, a trip to Minneapolis, a trip to Utah (doubtful), etc. isn't going to appeal to WIU.

Silly clenz, don't you know that the FCS world revolves around Fargo?

[nodak651]

As for affiliates, I can't see any restrictions.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D119.pdf

Section 20, starts on page 359


A multisport conference shall satisfy the following requirements: (Adopted:
1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)
(a) The conference shall sponsor a minimum of 12 Division I sports;
(b) The conference shall sponsor a minimum of six men’s sports, one of which shall be men’s basketball. In
addition to men’s basketball, the conference shall sponsor football or two other men’s team sports. A
minimum of seven members shall sponsor men’s basketball. A minimum of six members shall sponsor
five other sports, including football or two additional men’s team sports; and
(c) The conference shall sponsor a minimum of six women’s sports, one of which shall be women’s basketball.
In addition to women’s basketball, the conference shall sponsor two other women’s team sports. A
minimum of seven members shall sponsor women’s basketball. A minimum of six members shall sponsor
five other sports, including two additional women’s team sports

Thank you for posting this. The one issue is requirement B, because the summit already has Eastern Illinois as an affiliate for soccer. With IPFW leaving, and UMKC joining, the summit will remain at 5 summit teams plus an affiliate, for soccer. So just adding a baseball affiliate (UNC) or the MVFC (without 6 full summit members) will not work. My apologies, as this was probably already covered, but it's a long thread.

[dbackjon]

I agree. I was using those as those are the only "semi-reasonable" school I could come up with to form a Summit League football set up.

NDSU fans (mostly NDSU fans but there have been a few SDSU/USD as well) have challenged me for years every time i go "Who joins? Who do you go after?". I challenge them to start to sit down and put thought into who they could actually attract, none of them every have. You have more direct knowledge of those schools from being a Big Sky fan as long as you have.

NDSU, SDSU, and USD didn't move to the Big Sky to avoid traveling to Colorado, Utah, etc. for conference events. UND left the Big Sky, in large part, to the travel and having little to nothing in common with schools out there. Trying to form a new conference around the Rockies is...a complete 180

There isn't 3 schools for them to grab. Only real hope is St Thomas gets a waiver, the SD schools suck up pride and accept Augie and then pray UNC wants to join - or make a ton of concessions to get Mankato or SWMNSU to a D1.

They also don't realize that WIU isn't going to live in a conference where they are a flight from everyone for every sport. Adding trips to Colorado (on top of Denver), another trip to Sioux Falls, a trip to Minneapolis, a trip to Utah (doubtful), etc. isn't going to appeal to WIU.

Other than the MVC pipe dream, there really isn't another conference with much better geography for WIU. Horizon may be a little better - I need to run the numbers.

[clenz]

Silly clenz, don't you know that the FCS world revolves around Fargo?
Hey, I'm willing/wanting to have a discussion that involves someone showing an even semi-realistic Summit League with football as a full time sport.

[nodak651]

Regarding St. Thomas, this is very interesting. I would guess that St. Thomas is either going d2 or d1, and not joining the Wisconsin schools. http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4550.93375

[clenz]

Other than the MVC pipe dream, there really isn't another conference with much better geography for WIU. Horizon may be a little better - I need to run the numbers.
The Horizon has been hurt for WIU with Loyola and Valpo going MVC.

I'm of the belief that WIU isn't long for D1 in general.

[dbackjon]

Thank you for posting this. The one issue is requirement B, because the summit already has Eastern Illinois as an affiliate for soccer. With IPFW leaving, and UMKC joining, the summit will remain at 5 summit teams plus an affiliate, for soccer. So just adding a baseball affiliate (UNC) or the MVFC (without 6 full summit members) will not work. My apologies, as this was probably already covered, but it's a long thread.


So they are already using an affiliate to qualify, not sure they would be banned from using another affiliate in a different sport.

[dbackjon]

The Horizon has been hurt for WIU with Loyola and Valpo going MVC.

I'm of the belief that WIU isn't long for D1 in general.

The GLVC would be a perfect fit, geography wise for WIU, if they went that route. The conference is at 16 now, but losing Bellermine in 2020

https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/page/graph/png/Great_Lakes_Valley_Conference/0/7de4ca27a3f543e8880aec9406e29db53f20ee5a.png

[nodak651]

So they are already using an affiliate to qualify, not sure they would be banned from using another affiliate in a different sport.

Thanks again! I misread it, thinking that "5 other sports must have six members" meant that the other sport could have affiliates, when it was really basketball. If they are allowing it, the UNC baseball option is by far the easiest, and maybe best solution.

[Laker]

There isn't 3 schools for them to grab. Only real hope is St Thomas gets a waiver, the SD schools suck up pride and accept Augie and then pray UNC wants to join - or make a ton of concessions to get Mankato or SWMNSU to a D1.

They also don't realize that WIU isn't going to live in a conference where they are a flight from everyone for every sport. Adding trips to Colorado (on top of Denver), another trip to Sioux Falls, a trip to Minneapolis, a trip to Utah (doubtful), etc. isn't going to appeal to WIU.

Less than zero chance for Southwest to go D1. They aren't even close to offering 36 scholarships in football- closer to 18 last I heard. MSU is working their way up- going to 30 with help from the Touchdown Club- next goal is 32. Winona is now at 36. St Cloud is all in for hockey- they wouldn't move to D1 unless they dropped football. I don't see another NSIC going D1 for awhile. Not sure that the Augie move is a good one but Sanford is just throwing money at them.

[clenz]

Less than zero chance for Southwest to go D1. They aren't even close to offering 36 scholarships in football- closer to 18 last I heard. MSU is working their way up- going to 30 with help from the Touchdown Club- next goal is 32. Winona is now at 36. St Cloud is all in for hockey- they wouldn't move to D1 unless they dropped football. I don't see another NSIC going D1 for awhile. Not sure that the Augie move is a good one but Sanford is just throwing money at them.
I don't see any Minnesota D2's moving either. I was just throwing out options for anyone to actually start to formulate a conference with.

Everyone may hate it - but as time goes on and WIU continues to bleed and with the Indiana's gone - Augie may be the best/only option left.

[Laker]

I don't see any Minnesota D2's moving either. I was just throwing out options for anyone to actually start to formulate a conference with.

Everyone may hate it - but as time goes on and WIU continues to bleed and with the Indiana's gone - Augie may be the best/only option left.

I'm so old, I remember when UNI was in the NCC. :D

[uni88]

I don't see any Minnesota D2's moving either. I was just throwing out options for anyone to actually start to formulate a conference with.

Everyone may hate it - but as time goes on and WIU continues to bleed and with the Indiana's gone - Augie may be the best/only option left.

What about the University of Manitoba?

[Mike296]

There’s also the UWGB unknown as well tbh. Haven’t heard anything in a bit on that.

[Shockerman]

Minnesota State seems to make the most sense as it already has a D1 level basketball facility along with good tradition. Laker, would the Maverick faithful be okay with the Pioneer Football conference? You would potentially have Drake, Augie, and St Thomas for local rivalry games. At least that way you could make the move to DI much sooner and then could slowly build back in football until you had the resources to add scholarships again. You would also be in a conference with UND, Denver and Omaha who are all NACHO members. That would have to help on your quest to move Hockey there.

[clenz]

UM-Twin Cities won't let another public school be D1 in the state of Minnesota.

[mvfcfan]

This will probably end up hurting the Summit League and the MVFC long term.

WIU will probably try to get into the OVC at some point. It just makes more sense for them long term to try to get into that league. They fit the profile, have a rival in that league (EIU), and they would have other regional opponents.

Personally I think the 4 Dakota schools will probably all be in the Big Sky Conference within the next 5-10 years. I can't see them (particularly NDSU and SDSU) being content with playing D2 move ups and extension campuses forever.

If those 5 leave the MVFC that would leave the MVFC with 6 schools. I think if I were the MVC publics I would be demanding that either Murray State gets an invite to the MVC or the two XDSU schools get invites.

[Laker]

Laker, would the Maverick faithful be okay with the Pioneer Football conference? You would potentially have Drake, Augie, and St Thomas for local rivalry games. At least that way you could make the move to DI much sooner and then could slowly build back in football until you had the resources to add scholarships again. You would also be in a conference with UND, Denver and Omaha who are all NACHO members. That would have to help on your quest to move Hockey there.

Until recently I was the Touchdown Club VP. We still don't have 36 scholarships. So much money goes for D1 hockey, especially women's hockey, that doesn't get made back up. There is no secret that MSU wants to get with the NACHO because those were the biggest crowds. That would be a start. We would need a new stadium (despite the fact that it is a great place to WATCH a game) because it has no fan comforts and the press box is terrible. We are pushing for donations from the football alumni and now have a great locker room. If they made the move I'd still go to games, but I think a Summit move would be the NCC 2.0. And the Dakota schools will always have the big advantage because like Clenz posted, the U of M will be totally against it.

There are a few people who want an all D1 move, but the fan support just isn't there. The same Sanford guy who is pushing the Augie move up gave 6 million to the Mav basketball program to encourage a move up with them. Augie and MSU have had a great rivalry since the Mavs came into the NCC and now in the NSIC. The whole St Thomas situation is really interesting.

[Rabbit74]

Below is a link to an interesting article on the relationship between Sanford Health and the Summit League. The relationship between the two obviously relates to Augustana's aspirations as well. The article is written by the Argus Leader's investigative reporter who is very good rather than by a sports writer.

https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/2019/08/08/sanford-health-summit-league-division-i-augustana-university-north-dakota-state/1946223001/

Several posts above refer to WIU being so remote from the rest of the conference. In actuality Macomb is less than 300 miles from Kansas City and less than 400 from Omaha and USD. In fact on the average, their travel distance to the other schools is less than for Denver, Oral Roberts and UND.

[NDSUtk]

Below is a link to an interesting article on the relationship between Sanford Health and the Summit League. The relationship between the two obviously relates to Augustana's aspirations as well. The article is written by the Argus Leader's investigative reporter who is very good rather than by a sports writer.

https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/2019/08/08/sanford-health-summit-league-division-i-augustana-university-north-dakota-state/1946223001/

Several posts above refer to WIU being so remote from the rest of the conference. In actuality Macomb is less than 300 miles from Kansas City and less than 400 from Omaha and USD. In fact on the average, their travel distance to the other schools is less than for Denver, Oral Roberts and UND.

Subscriber only content. Argus Leader is basically the New York Times!

[Thumper 76]

Subscriber only content. Argus Leader is basically the New York Times!

Meh, as a Jacks fan, I’m happy to pay a whopping $29 to keep our beat writer.

[clenz]

Below is a link to an interesting article on the relationship between Sanford Health and the Summit League. The relationship between the two obviously relates to Augustana's aspirations as well. The article is written by the Argus Leader's investigative reporter who is very good rather than by a sports writer.

https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/2019/08/08/sanford-health-summit-league-division-i-augustana-university-north-dakota-state/1946223001/

Several posts above refer to WIU being so remote from the rest of the conference. In actuality Macomb is less than 300 miles from Kansas City and less than 400 from Omaha and USD. In fact on the average, their travel distance to the other schools is less than for Denver, Oral Roberts and UND.
Denver, ORU and Omaha aren't literally imploding dorms because they can't fill them anymore due to record small classes multiple years in a row.

Denver, ORU and Omaha aren't in a state that is in financial crisis - and have multiple state run universities experiencing enrollment and financial troubles.

Denver, ORU and Omaha don't have to replace their president due to them resigning in June because the school was sinking so fast he decided it was time to leave rather than be fired because alumni and donors were pressing for him to be fired. To the point the Alumni Council passed a resolution that would have sent a formal demand for termination of his contract if he didn't resign by the end of June. That led to a pretty significant split as many believed it was led by racism towards an African American president. WIU's enrollment has decreased roughly 40% over the last decade, meanwhile minority enrollment is up about 60% over that period. In rural, white, Illinois (just as it would in most of the upper Midwest where closeted racism is the only racism) that wasn't sitting well. The area of Macomb was becoming even more desolate, students were/are heading out of state in record numbers (and staying in state at only Illinois or Illinois State for public schools)

Denver and ORU are private and don't have to worry about the financial issues the way WIU does in regards to funding. UN-O is in a healthy (relative to the rest of the collegiate land scape) university system that has funded a D2 to D1 move in the last decade (even if at the cost of football and wrestling). UNO also has an endowment 25% larger than WIU - despite being a 3rd tier in their own city state university at the D2 level until 5 years ago.


It isn't Omaha or Kansas City that's the issue.

It's the Fargo, Grand Forks, Denver, and if the Summit wants to survive the Texas, Colorado, another South Dakota, Minneapolis, etc. trips for the womens basketball program, volleyball program, even at WIU the MBB program, softball program, etc.


By contrast in the Horizon League would have 9 of 11 other members closer than Brookings SD, and a 10th at an identical distance - which is 550 miles. UMKC would be 3rd in the Horizon League. You're also off on maths - Vermillion is 450 miles, not less than 400. Hell, Omaha at 350 miles would be 4th in the Horizon. Calling Kansas City under 300 miles is true by a c hair - it's 296 on the shortest route from WIU to UMKC - and by interstate rather than 2 lane state highway it is 304...which is still 4th closest HL team.



UIC
245


IUPUI
250


UWM
280


IPFW
330


NKU
380


WSU
380


UWGB
400


UDM
480


OU
500


CSU
550


YSU
610




On top of that the HL would be at 12 and could/would create divisions, meaning WIU is with UIC, IUPUI, UWM, IPFW and probably UWGB and won't have to deal with YSU, CSU, OU and UDM all that often with road trips.

Remember, it isn't just sending football to that location. It's sending 13 other sports to all of those locations every single year. WIU isn't in financial shape to do that forever - especially when their profile is growing decreasingly similar to the schools they are in a conference with, when their longer standing rivals are disappearing, and the footprint of the conference is moving even further away from them, and probably most of all - their interests are becoming less and less relevant to anyone else in the conference. At this point the only value WIU has to anyone else in the Summit is their baseball program - which appears to traditionally be bottom of the conference (middle of the pack in their best years....16-14 looks like their best conference record in a while). So their value in terms of baseball isn't even as a good team. Their value exists only in that they are a body that has kept them at 6.

[ST_Lawson]

Denver, ORU and Omaha aren't literally imploding dorms because they can't fill them anymore due to record small classes multiple years in a row.

Denver, ORU and Omaha aren't in a state that is in financial crisis - and have multiple state run universities experiencing enrollment and financial troubles.

...

All the above is pretty much accurate (cut out most of it so you all didn't have another wall of text) but just wanting to add a bit more context.

I do want to point out that the enrollment drop issues were not unique to WIU and were largely caused by the state financial issues, although it's been exacerbated at a couple of universities by "infighting" between faculty/staff, university presidents/chancellors, and boards of trustees. Since 2008, WIU lost 35.47% of student enrollment. In the same timeframe:
SIU-C lost 38% and is now smaller than SIU-Edwardsville
NIU lost 29.63%
EIU lost 37.49%
Chicago State (which really has no business being DI) lost 56.54% down to below 3,000 students
Northeastern Illinois U (club sports only) dropped 27.61%
IL State and the U of I system are the only ones with any increase (ISU is essentially static with a tiny increase)

How that all applies to conference affiliation though is relatively unique to Western, with us being the only Summit League school in the state (SIU-C and ISUr in the MVC, NIU in the MAC, EIU in the OVC, CSU in the WAC).

[Laker]

Since 2008, WIU lost 35.47% of student enrollment. In the same timeframe:
SIU-C lost 38% and is now smaller than SIU-Edwardsville
NIU lost 29.63%
EIU lost 37.49%
Chicago State (which really has no business being DI) lost 56.54% down to below 3,000 students
Northeastern Illinois U (club sports only) dropped 27.61%

I remember when NEIU dropped sports. Spot on about Chi State. Are they seriously thinking about closing, combining or at least reclassifying any of these schools?

[ST_Lawson]

I remember when NEIU dropped sports. Spot on about Chi State. Are they seriously thinking about closing, combining or at least reclassifying any of these schools?

Not that I've heard, but they should. There's 4 separate public universities in Chicago (UIS, Chi State, NEIU, Governors State), plus the private ones: Northwestern, DePaul, U of Chicago, Loyola, etc.
UIC is doing fine, growing, adding programs, etc. but the combined enrollment last fall of CSU, NEIU, and GSU was just under 16k. Even if they kept the 3 separate campuses, I think it would probably be a lot better for everyone if they combined a lot of their administrative/staff functions, similarly to how WIU is set up with our main campus in Macomb and a "satellite" campus in the Quad Cities (Moline, IL). Combining the universities would also make it easier for faculty to teach at multiple locations...especially between CSU and GSU (there's a metra line that has stops right next to both...about 35 minutes apart most days it looks like).

Long-term, I've heard that U of I wants to get to 100k students in their entire system (they're at about 85.5k now). I don't know if they just want to do that by growing what they have, or if they're going to try to absorb other universities like what they did with Springfield...was Sangamon State until it joined the U of I system in 1995 and became U of I Springfield. If they did that, then it's likely that some of the moves they make could impact either WIU or some of the other IL FCS schools.

For Western, things are starting to look better internally, but it's going to take years to dig out of this hole, and I don't know if we'll ever get back to the size we were from ~1970 to ~2000. I'm honestly surprised I haven't seen faculty calling for us to drop to DII or something. I know a lot of faculty don't think very highly about athletics and going DII would save money. Maybe they just don't know...I know I'm not going to be the one to inform them.

[clenz]

All the above is pretty much accurate (cut out most of it so you all didn't have another wall of text) but just wanting to add a bit more context.

I do want to point out that the enrollment drop issues were not unique to WIU and were largely caused by the state financial issues, although it's been exacerbated at a couple of universities by "infighting" between faculty/staff, university presidents/chancellors, and boards of trustees. Since 2008, WIU lost 35.47% of student enrollment. In the same timeframe:
SIU-C lost 38% and is now smaller than SIU-Edwardsville
NIU lost 29.63%
EIU lost 37.49%
Chicago State (which really has no business being DI) lost 56.54% down to below 3,000 students
Northeastern Illinois U (club sports only) dropped 27.61%
IL State and the U of I system are the only ones with any increase (ISU is essentially static with a tiny increase)

How that all applies to conference affiliation though is relatively unique to Western, with us being the only Summit League school in the state (SIU-C and ISUr in the MVC, NIU in the MAC, EIU in the OVC, CSU in the WAC).
It isn't unique to WIU - but what is unique is that EIU, NIU, SIU-C all have stable homes to "protect them" while this goes on. Chicago State has no business being a school anymore and isn't worth anyone's time to look at.

NIU gets pretty decent ESPN money as well from their MAC deal. They are also well established within the MAC. If they weren't established in the MAC, I'd say they are in real trouble as well. They are down to about 17k students enrolled and just 12k on campus

EIU doesn't get a ton of money (if any of substance) from the OVC, but with a stable home of mostly like minded institutions with a pretty tight geographic foot print they are able to handle the losses and ride the wave better.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/OhioValleyLocations.png/350px-OhioValleyLocations.png


SIU-C, if it wasn't for the MVC would be in the same type of trouble as WIU. If an MVC fan tells you they aren't worried about SIU-C, and coudln't see this coming a decade ago with how they handled their athletic department, they are a liar and/or blind. But, once again, SIU-c is well established in a well known and very stable conference.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/Missouri_Valley.png


This is where the move to the Horizon would be greatly beneficial for WIU in an effort to save their status as a D1 school.
https://i.imgur.com/c6wIXpb.png





It might not actually save them in the long run - but it will do a hell of a lot more than teaming up with a conference that has been nothing but a rotating door of misfit toys, can't keep programs around long enough with enough sports to not put the conference in jeopardy of losing auto bids, with their eyes looking west and south for schools.

https://i.imgur.com/PmyhFzu.png





However, as posted earlier in this thread the best home for WIU could very well be the Great Lakes Valley Conference in D2. Cost savings on scholarships, administrative positions, regulatory positions, and travel could/would be significant. Would depend on how the donors react to such a move - though I have no idea what WIU's version of their scholarship club looks like financially as unlike most other scholarship clubs in the MVFC/MVC/Summit, they don't report fund raising totals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/page/graph/png/Great_Lakes_Valley_Conference/0/7de4ca27a3f543e8880aec9406e29db53f20ee5a.png

[ST_Lawson]

It isn't unique to WIU - but what is unique is that EIU, NIU, SIU-C all have stable homes to "protect them" while this goes on. Chicago State has no business being a school anymore and isn't worth anyone's time to look at.

Yup, everyone else has a fairly stable/secure home at this point.



This is where the move to the Horizon would be greatly beneficial for WIU in an effort to save their status as a D1 school.

I'd like to see it happen, but idk if we're likely to get an invite. We'd be the one school not in a "metro area"/in close proximity to a regional airport.

[clenz]

Update on WIU's scholarship club

Most recent numbers I found was 2015

All time record high members with 675 with right around 300k in donations.

Cost savings from a D2 move would easily off set any donors leaving due to the move - if not every single donor deciding to leave.

[uni88]

https://i.imgur.com/PmyhFzu.png

Add the University of Manitoba and you have almost a straight line of schools from Tulsa to Winnipeg.

[uni88]

All the above is pretty much accurate (cut out most of it so you all didn't have another wall of text) but just wanting to add a bit more context.

I do want to point out that the enrollment drop issues were not unique to WIU and were largely caused by the state financial issues, although it's been exacerbated at a couple of universities by "infighting" between faculty/staff, university presidents/chancellors, and boards of trustees. Since 2008, WIU lost 35.47% of student enrollment. In the same timeframe:
SIU-C lost 38% and is now smaller than SIU-Edwardsville
NIU lost 29.63%
EIU lost 37.49%
Chicago State (which really has no business being DI) lost 56.54% down to below 3,000 students
Northeastern Illinois U (club sports only) dropped 27.61%
IL State and the U of I system are the only ones with any increase (ISU is essentially static with a tiny increase)

How that all applies to conference affiliation though is relatively unique to Western, with us being the only Summit League school in the state (SIU-C and ISUr in the MVC, NIU in the MAC, EIU in the OVC, CSU in the WAC).

I think a key point is that travel is relative. The distances that WIU has to travel might not seem like much to a school in the Dakotas or Colorado but they are for WIU when you consider their financial status and the reality that there are several conferences that are a better geographic fit. The Summit is shifting away from WIU at a time when WIU can't afford to increase their travel expenses.

Lawson, I know that ChiTrib had a bunch of editorials on the state of higher education in Illinois where they advocated for consolidation of board and administrative functions as well as getting the many state universities to focus on their core strengths rather than all of them trying to be everything to every potential student. Has that gained any traction?

[uni88]

I'd like to see it happen, but idk if we're likely to get an invite. We'd be the one school not in a "metro area"/in close proximity to a regional airport.

Move everything to Moline and you'd have the metro area/airport covered as well as Ft. Wayne and Green Bay. ;)

[clenz]

Add the University of Manitoba and you have almost a straight line of schools from Tulsa to Winnipeg.
I've often joked about renaming it the "I-29 Et al. Conference".

[clenz]

I think a key point is that travel is relative. The distances that WIU has to travel might not seem like much to a school in the Dakotas or Colorado but they are for WIU when you consider their financial status and the reality that there are several conferences that are a better geographic fit. The Summit is shifting away from WIU at a time when WIU can't afford to increase their travel expenses.

This here.

WIU doesn't have easy access to a decent airport. Can most planes that teams use to fly land/take off there? Runway is 5,100 feet long.

By contrast the one that UNI uses in Waterloo is 8,400. Fargo is 9,100. Missouri State has a 9,000 foot runway. Vermillion and SDSU both use Sioux Falls (which like Macomb would be an hour on a bus after a flight in) is 8,900 feet. All of them also have multiple runways that are 6000+ feet.

That could be a major draw back the HL doesn't want.

[Redbird007]

Not that I've heard, but they should. There's 4 separate public universities in Chicago (UIS, Chi State, NEIU, Governors State), plus the private ones: Northwestern, DePaul, U of Chicago, Loyola, etc.
UIC is doing fine, growing, adding programs, etc. but the combined enrollment last fall of CSU, NEIU, and GSU was just under 16k. Even if they kept the 3 separate campuses, I think it would probably be a lot better for everyone if they combined a lot of their administrative/staff functions, similarly to how WIU is set up with our main campus in Macomb and a "satellite" campus in the Quad Cities (Moline, IL). Combining the universities would also make it easier for faculty to teach at multiple locations...especially between CSU and GSU (there's a metra line that has stops right next to both...about 35 minutes apart most days it looks like).

Long-term, I've heard that U of I wants to get to 100k students in their entire system (they're at about 85.5k now). I don't know if they just want to do that by growing what they have, or if they're going to try to absorb other universities like what they did with Springfield...was Sangamon State until it joined the U of I system in 1995 and became U of I Springfield. If they did that, then it's likely that some of the moves they make could impact either WIU or some of the other IL FCS schools.

For Western, things are starting to look better internally, but it's going to take years to dig out of this hole, and I don't know if we'll ever get back to the size we were from ~1970 to ~2000. I'm honestly surprised I haven't seen faculty calling for us to drop to DII or something. I know a lot of faculty don't think very highly about athletics and going DII would save money. Maybe they just don't know...I know I'm not going to be the one to inform them.


UIC has A LOT of momentum in many ways. Enrollment at 30K (lots of commuters) and going to 35K. They have a respectable endowment. With the explosion of the Chicago west loop and the Pilsen area gentrification suddenly the UIC campus is in a hot/chic location as respects to business, residential and upscale nightlife/restaurants. The CTA just finished a state of the art El and bus stop that makes it very easy and convenient to use public transportation. UIC is also moving up in the US News national academic rankings and likely rated much higher than any other public university in the horizon, summit or mvc conferences. Their campus has ongoing construction in and around and they are opening new dorms this fall. They also have the academic profile that brings the bigger dollars, better companies recruiting and better academic students to campus including strong engineering, law, med school..etc. Bright future for this university and their rise and growth has and will continue to happen at the expense of many other Illinois public universities.

[ST_Lawson]

Lawson, I know that ChiTrib had a bunch of editorials on the state of higher education in Illinois where they advocated for consolidation of board and administrative functions as well as getting the many state universities to focus on their core strengths rather than all of them trying to be everything to every potential student. Has that gained any traction?

Somewhat, but it's still a bit early to tell if universities are going that direction or not. I'm somewhat "in-between" on that personally. I'm ok with focusing on areas that we're good at, but I also don't want to see some of the smaller "offerings" get completely cut out. I think there's an advantage to going to a university where you can get a well-rounded education, rather than just focusing entirely on one area to the detriment of others.



Move everything to Moline and you'd have the metro area/airport covered as well as Ft. Wayne and Green Bay. ;)

I think they've been trying to do some of that, but the problem is, they never really got a ton of people attending, and it's been decreasing. There's a few select programs that can work there, but they haven't been successful turning it into anything more than a commuter campus with a few decent programs. U of Iowa and NIU are both pretty close if someone's looking for a more "traditional" campus situation, plus there's a good community college system on the Iowa side, and a couple of private universities (Augustana College and St. Ambrose). I think there's just too much competition across the spectrum of higher ed there.

[Redbird007]

This here.

WIU doesn't have easy access to a decent airport. Can most planes that teams use to fly land/take off there? Runway is 5,100 feet long.

By contrast the one that UNI uses in Waterloo is 8,400. Fargo is 9,100. Missouri State has a 9,000 foot runway. Vermillion and SDSU both use Sioux Falls (which like Macomb would be an hour on a bus after a flight in) is 8,900 feet. All of them also have multiple runways that are 6000+ feet.

That could be a major draw back the HL doesn't want.

Access and location, for those that drive or fly, is a big issue for WIU long term. It iust is not easy to access Macomb and there is not a whole lot there (hotels, restaurants, businesses...etc) outside of WIU. Also Unfortunately for WIU their entire region has shrunk or is shrinking so maintaining or growing from the regional area will be very difficult.

[uni88]

Somewhat, but it's still a bit early to tell if universities are going that direction or not. I'm somewhat "in-between" on that personally. I'm ok with focusing on areas that we're good at, but I also don't want to see some of the smaller "offerings" get completely cut out. I think there's an advantage to going to a university where you can get a well-rounded education, rather than just focusing entirely on one area to the detriment of others.

I agree with your concern but I also think there are too many schools in the state with multiple boards and offering cookie cutter programs - WIU, ISU, EIU, SIUc, SIUe, NIU, NEIU, CSU, etc. Boards can be consolidated and schools can all offer core programs (liberal arts, education, etc.) but every school doesn't need to offer everything. A good example is WIU's criminal justice program. I don't know which other state schools offer criminal justice but WIU has a top program so criminal justice resources should be focused there to make the program even better. Other schools have their strengths (NIU - accounting) and should focus their resources on the core and their strengths.


I think they've been trying to do some of that, but the problem is, they never really got a ton of people attending, and it's been decreasing. There's a few select programs that can work there, but they haven't been successful turning it into anything more than a commuter campus with a few decent programs. U of Iowa and NIU are both pretty close if someone's looking for a more "traditional" campus situation, plus there's a good community college system on the Iowa side, and a couple of private universities (Augustana College and St. Ambrose). I think there's just too much competition across the spectrum of higher ed there.

That was tongue-in-cheek. As someone who grew up on the border of Forgottonia and lived in and around Chicago for 30 years, I like WIU in Macomb.

[ST_Lawson]

I agree with your concern but I also think there are too many schools in the state with multiple boards and offering cookie cutter programs - WIU, ISU, EIU, SIUc, SIUe, NIU, NEIU, CSU, etc. Boards can be consolidated and schools can all offer core programs (liberal arts, education, etc.) but every school doesn't need to offer everything. A good example is WIU's criminal justice program. I don't know which other state schools offer criminal justice but WIU has a top program so criminal justice resources should be focused there to make the program even better. Other schools have their strengths (NIU - accounting) and should focus their resources on the core and their strengths.


I agree that they need to consolidate the boards. Every university doesn't need it's own. I think there used to be 3 boards for all the schools in the state. I know U of I system had their own, but there was the Board of Governors that was originally in charge of ILSU, SIU, NIU, EIU, and WIU.



That was tongue-in-cheek. As someone who grew up on the border of Forgottonia and lived in and around Chicago for 30 years, I like WIU in Macomb.

Good to hear. There's plenty of people that have suggested moving WIU to the Quad Cities and been completely serious about it, so I didn't really know.

[dgtw]

On a side note, I saw that Chicago State fired Chris Zorich after a year on the job. A big name in Chicago, but his history of personal financial problems didn’t give me much confidence he could be a miracle worker there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[taper]

This here.

WIU doesn't have easy access to a decent airport. Can most planes that teams use to fly land/take off there? Runway is 5,100 feet long.

By contrast the one that UNI uses in Waterloo is 8,400. Fargo is 9,100. Missouri State has a 9,000 foot runway. Vermillion and SDSU both use Sioux Falls (which like Macomb would be an hour on a bus after a flight in) is 8,900 feet. All of them also have multiple runways that are 6000+ feet.

That could be a major draw back the HL doesn't want.

The airport isn't really a problem. 5100' is towards the short end but sufficient for midsize and regional jets. Fargo, Sioux Falls, and Springfield double as military airfields and are vastly overbuilt for their commercial needs.

[taper]

But, once again, SIU-c is well established in a well known and very stable conference.





It might not actually save them in the long run - but it will do a hell of a lot more than teaming up with a conference that has been nothing but a rotating door of misfit toys, can't keep programs around long enough with enough sports to not put the conference in jeopardy of losing auto bids, with their eyes looking west and south for schools.

clenz, what are you smoking? The Summit certainly has its problems, but the MVC isn't some jewel of the midwest. Losing Creighton and Wichita ripped the guts out, you're a one bid conference in basketball for the foreseeable future, whether you're willing to admit it or not. As for a revolving door, take a look in the mirror. I count 14 members dumping you in the last 2 decades vs 8 leaving the Summit(not counting those in both conferences that decided the grass wasn't actually greener). Loyola seems to be a pretty good add for you but doesn't come close to replacing your losses. Without the recent addition of Valpo you'd have lost your soccer autobid, and you dropped men's tennis awhile back too.

[Redbird007]

clenz, what are you smoking? The Summit certainly has its problems, but the MVC isn't some jewel of the midwest. Losing Creighton and Wichita ripped the guts out, you're a one bid conference in basketball for the foreseeable future, whether you're willing to admit it or not. As for a revolving door, take a look in the mirror. I count 14 members dumping you in the last 2 decades vs 8 leaving the Summit(not counting those in both conferences that decided the grass wasn't actually greener). Loyola seems to be a pretty good add for you but doesn't come close to replacing your losses. Without the recent addition of Valpo you'd have lost your soccer autobid, and you dropped men's tennis awhile back too.

Agree the MVC is vulnerable. Split down the middle with privates that do not want football on one side and publics that do want football on another side yet have they have to join a separate conference to make football happen. Loyola likes what the MVC has brought them but have already floated concept to key donors on plans to move onto bigger/better things with universities of similar profile. Loyola's move will not happen overnight but could happen in the next 5 to 10 years and only sooner if there is some shakeup elsewhere that creates opportunities (A10, AAC, Big East...etc). Beyond that the MVC and MVFC is a bad long term model, IMO although others may feel otherwise. I personally would rather that ISU have all sports in one conference to create better rivalries esp since the MVC has lost its standing in basketball. The big boys have poached the universities that are desirable from the almighty $$$$ perspective and it has sucked the life out of many mid-majors esp the MVC.

[clenz]

clenz, what are you smoking? The Summit certainly has its problems, but the MVC isn't some jewel of the midwest. Losing Creighton and Wichita ripped the guts out, you're a one bid conference in basketball for the foreseeable future, whether you're willing to admit it or not. As for a revolving door, take a look in the mirror. I count 14 members dumping you in the last 2 decades vs 8 leaving the Summit(not counting those in both conferences that decided the grass wasn't actually greener). Loyola seems to be a pretty good add for you but doesn't come close to replacing your losses. Without the recent addition of Valpo you'd have lost your soccer autobid, and you dropped men's tennis awhile back too.

What 14 teams have left the MVC in the last 20 years? Affiliates done count

Please list them


I also said nothing of quality. I spoke of stability.

And yes, the mvc is still quite respected, especially considering to the SL.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[taper]

What 14 teams have left the MVC in the last 20 years? Affiliates done count

Please list them


I also said nothing of quality. I spoke of stability.

And yes, the mvc is still quite respected, especially considering to the SL.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

Since 1999:
Creighton
Tulsa
Wichita St
EIU
Valpo(returned)
WKU
Vanderbuilt
Little Rock(returned)
Drury
SMU
TCU
Belmot
SUI-E
Central Ark
Hartford
UMBC

Why don't affiliates count? They're conference members in their sport and most definitely count towards membership. Don't forget the Summit sponsors more sports than the MVC. I'm not trying to claim the Summit is a better conference than the MVC, only that you're not nearly in a good of position as you think. Losing 2 of your top basketball members, most of your affiliates, and dropping a sport is definitely not a sign of stability.

[ST_Lawson]

The airport isn't really a problem. 5100' is towards the short end but sufficient for midsize and regional jets. Fargo, Sioux Falls, and Springfield double as military airfields and are vastly overbuilt for their commercial needs.

Lack of hotel rooms is also an issue. I think that's probably why all the football teams that have to fly will fly into either Peoria or the Quad Cities, stay the night, then drive the ~90 minutes to Macomb in the morning. Smaller teams (like basketball) will stay in town overnight, but I don't know what they do for travel. I kinda doubt they're flying into the Macomb Airport though.

[Redbird007]

Since 1999:
Creighton
Tulsa
Wichita St
EIU
Valpo(returned)
WKU
Vanderbuilt
Little Rock(returned)
Drury
SMU
TCU
Belmot
SUI-E
Central Ark
Hartford
UMBC

Why don't affiliates count? They're conference members in their sport and most definitely count towards membership. Don't forget the Summit sponsors more sports than the MVC. I'm not trying to claim the Summit is a better conference than the MVC, only that you're not nearly in a good of position as you think. Losing 2 of your top basketball members, most of your affiliates, and dropping a sport is definitely not a sign of stability.

Gotta agree that counting affiliates is a weak argument. Many of those affiliate sport members are meaningless in the big scheme.

[taper]

Gotta agree that counting affiliates is a weak argument. Many of those affiliate sport members are meaningless in the big scheme.

Fine by me. Give DBU to the Summit for another baseball team and we're all happy. Never mind you lose your soccer auto bid as soon as Loyola gets a better invite.

[clenz]

1. Loyola isn't going anywhere. ROFL at that.
2. Losing a soccer bid isn't going to cost the MVC all bids for all sports
3. The MVC has enough men's tennis teams to field it as a conference
4. Tennis doesn't count as a team sport so weather or not the MVC sponsors it is mostly irrelevant.
4a. Sports that are considered mens team sports baseball, basketball, football, ice hockey, lacrosse, soccer, volleyball, water polo, wrestling
4b. Sports that are considered mens indiv sports cross country, gold, swimming and diving, tennis, indoor track, outdoor track, wrestling
4c. Wrestling is both - though for NCAA auto bids I don't believe it is considered
4d. womens team sports basketball, beach volleyball, field hockey, ice hockey, lacross, rowing, soccer, softball, volleyball, water polo
4e. Womens indiv sports cross country golf gymnastics swimming and diving, tennis, indoor track, outdoor track
5. You want to compare full time membership since 1990? Remember, the Summit has had to be granted at least 4 or 5 waivers from the NCAA to not have it's "rights" as a conference pulled due to not maintaining conference memberships long enough to meet the requirement for length of service of member schools

Programs that have left the MVC since 1990:
Tulsa 1996
Creighton 2013
Wichita State 2017

Programs that have joined the MVC since 1990
Missouri State 1990
Northern Iowa 1991
Evansville 1994
Loyola 2013
Valpo 2017

That's 3 departures in 30 years.

Let's look at the Summit
Missouri State 1990
Northern Iowa 1991
Akron 1992 (only spent 2 years there)
Cleveland State 1994
UIC 1994
NIU 1994
(4 years)
UWGB 1994
UW-M 1994
Wright State 1994
EIU 1996
CCSU 1997 (3 YEARS)
Troy (3 years)
Buffalo 1998 (4 years)
NEIU 1998 (4 years)
YSU 2001
Chicago State 2006
Valpo 2007
Centenary 2011
SUU 2012
ORU 2012
UMKC 2013 (NOW REJOINING)
Oakland 2013
IUPUI 2017
PFW 2020

Now members that have joined since 1990 and lasted more than 4 years
NDSU 2007
SDSU 2007
USD 2011
UNO 2013
Denver 2013
ORU - 2014 - actually left once and came back
UND 2018
UMKC 2020

WIU is the only team in the Summit that has been there long enough to even be in middle school. The reason WIU didn't leave is no one else wanted them.


The Summit (and the WAC for the last decade as well) is anything but stable. It always has been the home of misfit D1 schools. Schools that aren't established enough, big enough, well funded enough or in a good enough geographic location for other conferences to take them. For the forseeable future - for better and worse - that conference will always be the Dakota 4 plus whomever else in the generic Midwest/plains region needs a home that can fill in a conference. You can fight with me on that all you want - but I've had SDSU and NDSU fans tell me that in text messages as recently as yesterday.

UNI was that misfit toy in the 80s, then it found a home. Same with Missouri State. The Summit split into the Horizion gave those programs a better/more stable home. The MAC expanding to 12 in the 1990s gave Buffalo, NIU, etc. a better fit of a home. YSU, IUPUI, PFW, Valpo going Horizon in the 00s and 10s gave them a better home to allow for growth (which Valpo turned into a MVC invite...even if it was a rushed reaction invite).

The Summit is far from healthy

You can try to poach DBU - you had the same options to add them as an affiliate when the MVC did. Difference is, the MVC saw them and made a protective move. That's something I haven't seen the Summit do. What did they do instead? Add a school that just dropped baseball. Right now we can see Summit League schools drooling over the idea of adding a D3 with aspirations of wanting to move past the Summit as fast as possible - St. Thomas.

The Summit may offer more sports - yet which conference is in danger of losing all of it's autobids? Sometimes it's not quantity, it's quality and intelligence of offerings.


I'm not going to pretend everything is perfectly okay between the publics and the privates in the MVC. It's not. However, after the Valpo add I think both sides realized that the process and rules for adding schools were greatly flawed and there is more cohesion moving forward. I think the conference knows there is 1 school that is a must add - would benefit the football schools and boost the basketball conference. The sticking point is now the idea of even vs odd numbers of schools. I've long said that the MVC, unless it got it's **** together, was heading towards a Big East split. I think in 2014-2016 that was a very real possibility as things were extremely contentious. I think the Valpo move really put things at 211.8*, but thankfully it didn't hit boil. I think that possibility is much less so now - though not entirely unrealistic

[Yote 53]

Clenz is on a roll. I don't really get his bitterness towards the Dakota schools, because that is where all of his shots at the Summit are centered at. Calls the conference a bunch of outcast, fringe D1 schools when the core of it is actually pretty strong now.

The Dakota 4 schools were together in a conference that lasted 100 years, a conference UNI used to be in. We're looking to build another conference for the next 100 years. It might not be a bad idea for UNI and some of the the other "State" schools in the MVC to think about a merger with the Summit. It actually would make a lot of sense for the MVFC to become an all sports conference.

[clenz]

Clenz is on a roll. I don't really get his bitterness towards the Dakota schools, because that is where all of his shots at the Summit are centered at. Calls the conference a bunch of outcast, fringe D1 schools when the core of it is actually pretty strong now.

The Dakota 4 schools were together in a conference that lasted 100 years, a conference UNI used to be in. We're looking to build another conference for the next 100 years. It might not be a bad idea for UNI and some of the the other "State" schools in the MVC to think about a merger with the Summit. It actually would make a lot of sense for the MVFC to become an all sports conference.
Contrary to 5 years ago - I've long said I'm open to the idea of some sort of MVFC all sports conference....with some "catches"

1. Football spending floor of like 3.6 million. Most seem to hit this already so it shouldn't be an issue
2. Men's basketball spending floor of 2.75-2.8 million - I'd like to see 3m but I get it
2a. Minimum MBB HC pay of 400k. We aren't going to stop HC's from being poached by larger schools - but we can make it so we can attract high level coaches from the start
3. Conference tournament isn't in Sioux Falls. This isn't a Dakota conference at that point. Des Moines has an arena that would be great for it with Wells Fargo Arena - an would be basically the geographic center of the conference. Only potential hold up would be Iowa girls state basketball is 2nd week of Feb and Boys is 3rd week of Feb so the Iowa Wolves and Iowa Wild are already forced to be on the road for 2 weeks in Feb. Taking a Thurs-Sun the first weekend of March could be a problem.


Those 3.5 things are the starting point for discussions on it, and I think we could come to a reasonable conference at that point

[ST_Lawson]

Contrary to 5 years ago - I've long said I'm open to the idea of some sort of MVFC all sports conference....with some "catches"
...
2. Men's basketball spending floor of 2.75-2.8 million - I'd like to see 3m but I get it
2a. Minimum MBB HC pay of 400k.
...

Well folks, it's been fun. This would definitely price us out of a potential merger. Our entire basketball staff...men's and women's combined...is only barely over $400k. There's no way we could swing $400k for one coach. Our two bball head coaches combined are $265k (they make the same amount).

[F'N Hawks]

Well folks, it's been fun. This would definitely price us out of a potential merger. Our entire basketball staff...men's and women's combined...is only barely over $400k. There's no way we could swing $400k for one coach. Our two bball head coaches combined are $265k (they make the same amount).

Our's too, we're out.

[Laker]

[QUOTE=clenz;2787739]

3. Only potential hold up would be Iowa girls state basketball is 2nd week of Feb and Boys is 3rd week of Feb so the Iowa Wolves and Iowa Wild are already forced to be on the road for 2 weeks in Feb. Taking a Thurs-Sun the first weekend of March could be a problem./QUOTE]

Clenz, when did Iowa move the BBB and GBB tourneys to Feb? When I taught there they were in March like Minnesota. That is really early!

[clenz]

[QUOTE=clenz;2787739]

3. Only potential hold up would be Iowa girls state basketball is 2nd week of Feb and Boys is 3rd week of Feb so the Iowa Wolves and Iowa Wild are already forced to be on the road for 2 weeks in Feb. Taking a Thurs-Sun the first weekend of March could be a problem./QUOTE]

Clenz, when did Iowa move the BBB and GBB tourneys to Feb? When I taught there they were in March like Minnesota. That is really early!
It's been floating between late Feb and early march - but never into Mid March - for a few years. The Wild and Wolves dictate that some

The stat has also been experimenting with various time frames for most sports the last few years to give time between seasons so some seasons have been condensed. That state is now playing games over Christmas break - which is something that hasn't happened previously - to condense the season. This year might have been extra condensed for a reason I don't remember. If so then DSM is harder to make work, but would still seem like the most logical spot based on geography

[dbackjon]

I agree with your concern but I also think there are too many schools in the state with multiple boards and offering cookie cutter programs - WIU, ISU, EIU, SIUc, SIUe, NIU, NEIU, CSU, etc. Boards can be consolidated and schools can all offer core programs (liberal arts, education, etc.) but every school doesn't need to offer everything. A good example is WIU's criminal justice program. I don't know which other state schools offer criminal justice but WIU has a top program so criminal justice resources should be focused there to make the program even better. Other schools have their strengths (NIU - accounting) and should focus their resources on the core and their strengths.



That was tongue-in-cheek. As someone who grew up on the border of Forgottonia and lived in and around Chicago for 30 years, I like WIU in Macomb.

Where did you grow up?

[uni88]

Where did you grow up?

Keokuk Iowa, a little over 40 miles west of Macomb. More kids from my HS graduating class went to WIU than UNI. WIU, Truman State and Iowa were probably close to equal in number of attendees.

[dbackjon]

Keokuk Iowa, a little over 40 miles west of Macomb. More kids from my HS graduating class went to WIU than UNI. WIU, Truman State and Iowa were probably close to equal in number of attendees.


Dang - basically a Missourian (or Illini). I've crossed the river there.

[Model Citizen]

Someone explain to me how this St. Thomas skipping the 13ish year process to move D1 works and why the NCAA should/would grant them that bypass?

Don't know how they could skip the process. Getting kicked out of their D-III conference will get sympathy, if that means anything.

With the current grad transfer rules, putting together a competitive D-I men's basketball team can be an incredibly fast process. St. Thomas would need the right coach. Look at what your man DeVries did at Drake after inheriting three (?) scholarship players.

Tommie football would of course join the Phabulous Football League.

[Laker]

USD AD says "not so fast" to Augie joining the Summit.

https://kwsn.com/news/articles/2019/aug/08/usds-herbster-summit-schools-not-bully-on-augie-joining-yet/926072/

[Model Citizen]

So if the Summit is Augie's only possibility for a D-I basketball conference, the Summit could block Augie's planned move to D-I by denying them membership?

[Yote 53]

Contrary to 5 years ago - I've long said I'm open to the idea of some sort of MVFC all sports conference....with some "catches"

1. Football spending floor of like 3.6 million. Most seem to hit this already so it shouldn't be an issue
2. Men's basketball spending floor of 2.75-2.8 million - I'd like to see 3m but I get it
2a. Minimum MBB HC pay of 400k. We aren't going to stop HC's from being poached by larger schools - but we can make it so we can attract high level coaches from the start
3. Conference tournament isn't in Sioux Falls. This isn't a Dakota conference at that point. Des Moines has an arena that would be great for it with Wells Fargo Arena - an would be basically the geographic center of the conference. Only potential hold up would be Iowa girls state basketball is 2nd week of Feb and Boys is 3rd week of Feb so the Iowa Wolves and Iowa Wild are already forced to be on the road for 2 weeks in Feb. Taking a Thurs-Sun the first weekend of March could be a problem.


Those 3.5 things are the starting point for discussions on it, and I think we could come to a reasonable conference at that point

I am completely on board with this and I think every one of your bullet points is doable.

[Yote 53]

USD AD says "not so fast" to Augie joining the Summit.

https://kwsn.com/news/articles/2019/aug/08/usds-herbster-summit-schools-not-bully-on-augie-joining-yet/926072/

Wow. I am surprised that Herbster would give the responses he did, and in depth. I caught snippets of this earlier but this is the first time I read the full article with all the quotes from the interview. Surprised because he is a very careful and calculated guy. If he is saying these things, what must other Summit member schools be thinking?

[Redbird007]

1. Loyola isn't going anywhere. ROFL at that.


Well tell that to their President, Provost (big east ties) and AD(A10 ties) who have already floated that topic to some significant loyola alums (one or two that were approached have net worth > uni endowment) last fall. They are certainly not rushing anywhere but want to be prepared for any opportunity that allows Loyola to advance athletically as that is their goal. Not surprising the largest catholic university in the US would want to end up in a conference with similar universities esp since there are few conferences that have many catholic members including the A10, which by the way already has catholic conference members as close and as far west as St Louis and Dayton. Probably as cheap and easy to travel to many a10 universities vs MVC universities for Loyola since many reside in big cities. It make cost them more for travel but not likely a big delta to consider. Loyola ultimately leaving the MVC makes a whole lot more sense than staying in the MVC. When and where they end up elsewhere who knows but it is not likely they are in the MVC long term.

[mvfcfan]

If Loyola leaves the MVC and we get Murray State because of it then I hope Loyola leaves.

[clenz]

If Loyola leaves the MVC and we get Murray State because of it then I hope Loyola leaves.This is also true.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Laker]

Wow. I am surprised that Herbster would give the responses he did, and in depth. I caught snippets of this earlier but this is the first time I read the full article with all the quotes from the interview. Surprised because he is a very careful and calculated guy. If he is saying these things, what must other Summit member schools be thinking?

That also made me wonder. How much support does AU have from USD and SDSU?

I haven't been able to get much out of my Sioux Falls sources. Of course, most of them are USF fans......

[uni88]

Well tell that to their President, Provost (big east ties) and AD(A10 ties) who have already floated that topic to some significant loyola alums (one or two that were approached have net worth > uni endowment) last fall. They are certainly not rushing anywhere but want to be prepared for any opportunity that allows Loyola to advance athletically as that is their goal. Not surprising the largest catholic university in the US would want to end up in a conference with similar universities esp since there are few conferences that have many catholic members including the A10, which by the way already has catholic conference members as close and as far west as St Louis and Dayton. Probably as cheap and easy to travel to many a10 universities vs MVC universities for Loyola since many reside in big cities. It make cost them more for travel but not likely a big delta to consider. Loyola ultimately leaving the MVC makes a whole lot more sense than staying in the MVC. When and where they end up elsewhere who knows but it is not likely they are in the MVC long term.

Loyola jumps at the right opportunity. No chance that it's the Big East though. DePaul would block it. A10 is probably the best fit if the want them with the AAC less likely.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

That also made me wonder. How much support does AU have from USD and SDSU?

I haven't been able to get much out of my Sioux Falls sources. Of course, most of them are USF fans......


IMO, Augie eventually gets in.

Football goes Pioneer and there is another cupcake 1AA team in the region to schedule for a beat down.

Augie baseball could compete right now in the Summit. Many of their women's sports also.

[dbackjon]

Loyola jumps at the right opportunity. No chance that it's the Big East though. DePaul would block it. A10 is probably the best fit if the want them with the AAC less likely.

I can't find a current map that added Davidson, put here is the A-10's footprint:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b1/Atlantic_10_Conference_2013_member_map.png

St. Louis is very much an outlier, and probably would be the Big East's first choice if they went to 12 (not thinking they are likely to).

St. Louis is on an island - not sure the eastern members would want another island.

Without Dayton and St. Louis, the A-10 has a nice compact profile, with Davidson being the main outlier

[mvfcfan]

The A10 would be the only place I could see Loyola going. To be honest they probably wouldn't add much to the A10. They have a huge endowment and a recent Final 4 appearance. However they sucked for 30 years before that, they play in a very small arena, have a very small fan base, and are pretty much an afterthought in Chicago.

I actually like Loyola okay, but they don't have football or baseball. Murray State does have football and baseball; and they are a better overall basketball program by far that actually has a real fan base. They would also help my school with travel for football and add stability for the MVC publics if the Dakota's ever left.

[Laker]

Summit has a meeting in November.

https://letsgodu.com/2019/08/13/cozy-summit-league-relationships-cast-dark-shadow-over-augustana/

[clenz]

A10 also has 14 members.

Where does the space come from?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[ST_Lawson]

Summit has a meeting in November.

https://letsgodu.com/2019/08/13/cozy-summit-league-relationships-cast-dark-shadow-over-augustana/

League presidents vote...so, like the presidents of the universities in the league? We might have a slight problem with that bit. Currently have an "acting president", might have an "interim president" by then, won't have an actual president though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Model Citizen]

Summit has a meeting in November.

https://letsgodu.com/2019/08/13/cozy-summit-league-relationships-cast-dark-shadow-over-augustana/


Yes. And it is standard procedure for conference reps to visit a prospective member's campus prior to any invitation to join.

I wonder if DU will approve (are they ever satisfied with any conference they've been in?). Fortunately for Augustana, the writer of that article won't have a vote. Lol.

[clenz]

League presidents vote...so, like the presidents of the universities in the league? We might have a slight problem with that bit. Currently have an "acting president", might have an "interim president" by then, won't have an actual president though.


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If it was like UNI when Valpo was voted on - you go with what the majority/your closest allies existing are doing. Or you are able to abstain.

I don't know the Summit by-laws by the MVC required 7 yes votes to add Valpo. It was said that it was a unanimous yes, but IIRC UNI abstained as we didn't have a president - well a new one had been named but he was yet on the job and the vote was 2 months after he was named the next president.

MC also nailed the process. The league office leaders, and a few select presidents/committee members go around and tour the campus, athletic facilities, look through the books, go through fundraising numbers, future plans and what not. It's a full on audit of the school and athletic department. Nothing is hidden at that point. A report is created and distrusted at that point.


I'll never forget when the MVC added Valpo and visits were made to them, UW-Milwaukee, and UN-Omaha. The reaction that the visitation committee had to UN-O was one of shock, by all accounts I'd heard. The numbers, when not able to be "spun" through PR and slight exaggerations, were shockingly bad. Most schools when they get visited roll out the red carpet and do everything to replicate game days in facilities and put the best foot forward. UN-O was completely unprepared and did nothing other than walk people through buildings with no "bells and whistles" going on.

[Yote 53]

If it was like UNI when Valpo was voted on - you go with what the majority/your closest allies existing are doing. Or you are able to abstain.

I don't know the Summit by-laws by the MVC required 7 yes votes to add Valpo. It was said that it was a unanimous yes, but IIRC UNI abstained as we didn't have a president - well a new one had been named but he was yet on the job and the vote was 2 months after he was named the next president.

MC also nailed the process. The league office leaders, and a few select presidents/committee members go around and tour the campus, athletic facilities, look through the books, go through fundraising numbers, future plans and what not. It's a full on audit of the school and athletic department. Nothing is hidden at that point. A report is created and distrusted at that point.


I'll never forget when the MVC added Valpo and visits were made to them, UW-Milwaukee, and UN-Omaha. The reaction that the visitation committee had to UN-O was one of shock, by all accounts I'd heard. The numbers, when not able to be "spun" through PR and slight exaggerations, were shockingly bad. Most schools when they get visited roll out the red carpet and do everything to replicate game days in facilities and put the best foot forward. UN-O was completely unprepared and did nothing other than walk people through buildings with no "bells and whistles" going on.

That actually sounds very Nebraska-like. No bells and whistles. Just an "aww shucks, go ahead and look around the place if you would like". UNO wasn't close to being ready for the MVC. They probably shouldn't have even entertained the visit so as not to embarrass themselves.

[Laker]

Yes. And it is standard procedure for conference reps to visit a prospective member's campus prior to any invitation to join.

I wonder if DU will approve (are they ever satisfied with any conference they've been in?). Fortunately for Augustana, the writer of that article won't have a vote. Lol.

Denver is an odd school. No football, baseball or softball. Not very good at basketball, great at lacrosse and hockey. Would seem to look west rather than east. Not sure what their goal is.

[clenz]

That actually sounds very Nebraska-like. No bells and whistles. Just an "aww shucks, go ahead and look around the place if you would like". UNO wasn't close to being ready for the MVC. They probably shouldn't have even entertained the visit so as not to embarrass themselves.
It wasn't so much the lack of shiny bells and whistles as it was lack of any effort at all. Didn't even have anything other than general flood lights on in the arena or most facilities when they were toured (again, from what I've heard). UWM and Valpo had welcome MVC signs made up and a few other just "basic" things - even without looking at the above and beyond things. That didn't sit well with the committee. They are taking the time to consider you, spending money and resources to visit, and picked you over other schools for the process.

What played more of a factor was how, to quote what I was told, "disturbingly far off their numbers were from what the MVC was told, or they release publicly".

That visit actually probably helped the Summit long term as it ensured the MVC won't take much more than even a quarter look at them for a long, long, time if ever.

The Valpo move still causes issues among fans, and I'd bet secretly many in charge, aren't super pleased with how that has gone so far. Murray State would have been a far better add. Their BOT gave them a 3 million dollar purse to fund a move, and were openly begging for a move. However, the aforementioned public/private issue meant Murray had no chance (along with some logistics with their football program moving) at being the 10th member.

I think the result of the Valpo add is the MVC being much more open to best overall fit - not just public/private - and much more selective in the process of potential members. The PR backlash from UW-M and UN-O being finalists wasn't great.

I'd love to see the Summit get another school with baseball. Get UND to re-add it, find affiliate members, anything. A stable summit is great for everyone involved - but the MVFC dissolving into the Summit isn't the answer.

[Laker]

I'd love to see the Summit get another school with baseball. Get UND to re-add it, find affiliate members, anything. A stable summit is great for everyone involved - but the MVFC dissolving into the Summit isn't the answer.

I'm kind of surprised that the Summit didn't make that a requirement for UND to join. Or UMKC to add it. You just need a warm body, both schools are going to save a ton of money on travel- make it part of the deal.

[clenz]

Denver is an odd school. No football, baseball or softball. Not very good at basketball, great at lacrosse and hockey. Would seem to look west rather than east. Not sure what their goal is.
The MVC looked REAL hard, at Denver when Loyola was added. They were told if they were to add baseball and/or softball they'd get an invite. They came back with "No...and we'd like to leave our soccer teams in the WAC but other than that we accept".

Then Loyola was added.

Denver is unique in that they have amazing academics and care greatly about niche sports but not what everyone else does. They want to attract high academic students (great for them on that) and found a great way to use their location to target affluent (often higher academic achieving - research backs that up) students that love the local niche sports/activities.

They've carved out a fantastic model for themselves, it just doesn't fit "well" into D1 athletics

[clenz]

I'm kind of surprised that the Summit didn't make that a requirement for UND to join. Or UMKC to add it. You just need a warm body, both schools are going to save a ton of money on travel- make it part of the deal.
This - it doesn't even have to be a good program. You just need a program. Get the relationship with Sanford to kick a few extra grand to the conference to help fund baseball at all schools - but mostly get it at UND or UMKC.

UNI has been without baseball for a decade, if I had the money for it I'd bring it back. UNI is the only public school to not have it in the MVC (along with Drake and Loyola). However, DBU gives the league 8 baseball members so there isn't a push to get any of the 3 non baseball schools in the MVC to add it. Heck, only UI is the only D1 in Iowa with baseball. Which is real strange given how much this state loves baseball.

[Laker]

This - it doesn't even have to be a good program. You just need a program. Get the relationship with Sanford to kick a few extra grand to the conference to help fund baseball at all schools - but mostly get it at UND or UMKC.

UNI has been without baseball for a decade, if I had the money for it I'd bring it back. UNI is the only public school to not have it in the MVC (along with Drake and Loyola). However, DBU gives the league 8 baseball members so there isn't a push to get any of the 3 non baseball schools in the MVC to add it. Heck, only UI is the only D1 in Iowa with baseball. Which is real strange given how much this state loves baseball.

I was shocked when Iowa State dropped baseball. Much as I was back in 1991 when Wisconsin announced that they were dropping it. You would think that there would be a team there, but I've heard that as long as Alvarez is there that they won't have one.

[clenz]

I was shocked when Iowa State dropped baseball. Much as I was back in 1991 when Wisconsin announced that they were dropping it. You would think that there would be a team there, but I've heard that as long as Alvarez is there that they won't have one.
I've heard the same on Alvarez.

There are a number of reasons that Iowa schools don't have baseball - and honestly if the BTN didn't start kicking the tens on tens on tens of millions of dollars a year when it did - I highly doubt Iowa would have it right now. Not that the cost of baseball, alone, at UNI, Iowa State or Iowa is/was a major issue (though UNI it certainly was more so) but Iowa State getting the $30m a year now, or whatever it is they get from bending over and letting Texas decide the fate of the B12, would have stopped the program from being dropped. Iowa State and UNI had some Title IX issues on top of the finance side of it.

It's not that UNI didn't have the money for baseball, as a sport. It was extra issues on top of it. UNI doesn't have a stadium and was sharing a stadium in Waterloo with the Northwoods League team. It's a **** stadium in a mostly **** part of town. Playing baseball 25 minutes off campus, in a **** stadium, while being bad is a bad recipe for keeping a team. The financial issues were more so the Waterloo Bucks requiring UNI to do most/all of the upkeep on the stadium and improvements. Players were the ones raking the field. UNI was the one buying the chalk/paint for the lines, mowing the grass, etc. On top of that the stadium floods like crazy every spring (I think that's been remedied since UNI dropped the program). This caused major upkeep issues, as well as actually being able to play at home consistently. They've upgraded the stadium significantly since then, but back when UNI had baseball the stands were old painted wood bleachers and the concessions and restrooms hadn't been upgraded since the 70s or 80s. The stadium was built in 1946 and outside of a reno in the 70s or 80s it went untouched

To show how bad the stadium was the Midwest League team, last known as the Waterloo Diamonds, left Waterloo to become the Springfield Sultans before the 1994 season after the city of Waterloo failed to improve the stadium to meet Major League Baseball's newly imposed standards for minor league ballparks. The Diamonds evolved into today's Lansing Lugnuts of the Midwest League. The stadium was so bad the MiLB team that played there had to relocated. The Bucks started play the next season and joined the Northwoods League and the stadium remained unchanged.

So UNI was playing 25 minutes off campus, in a stadium so bad teams were forced to relocate, in a stadium that holds 5k in front of crowds of 50, while being forced to do all their own maintenance and upkeep to the field and stadium along with paying rental fees.

It wasn't baseball that was too expensive or the issue. It was Title IX and the extra stuff with the stadium that killed the program.

[ST_Lawson]

This - it doesn't even have to be a good program. You just need a program. Get the relationship with Sanford to kick a few extra grand to the conference to help fund baseball at all schools - but mostly get it at UND or UMKC.

UNI has been without baseball for a decade, if I had the money for it I'd bring it back. UNI is the only public school to not have it in the MVC (along with Drake and Loyola). However, DBU gives the league 8 baseball members so there isn't a push to get any of the 3 non baseball schools in the MVC to add it. Heck, only UI is the only D1 in Iowa with baseball. Which is real strange given how much this state loves baseball.

Yup. If Sanford has the $ to turn Augustana into a DI school, they can certainly help out a couple of Summit teams with getting baseball going. USD doesn't have baseball but they have a 4-field softball facility, plus plenty of room to expand to the north or east (as near as I can tell from google maps)...buy up a bit of that farmland across the road from the softball facility and put in a baseball stadium (https://i.imgur.com/waMfBfE.png)...or see about expanding one of the existing softball fields to work for baseball. Doesn't have to be spectacular, just has to be usable. They already have a dome for winter/early spring indoor practices too.

UND might be a bit harder, since it's so much further north (generally colder longer than the south edge of South Dakota), and they're a bit more limited on space than USD. UMKC has a similar limitation on space around their campus, but they could make something work further out, or maybe just partner with nearby Rockhurst University (DII) which has a baseball stadium that's so close that it's practically on UMKC's official campus map (it's like 2 blocks from UMKC's campus). Chip in a bit of $ to upgrade it a bit, work out scheduling between the two teams, and you're all set. Hell, the two schools primary color is a nearly identical shade of blue...won't even have to repaint the stadium.

That does seem odd about Iowa schools not having baseball, especially considering the College World Series stadium is literally a half mile from the Iowa border.

[Redbird007]

Various universities/conferences cobble together a conference sport via using affiliate members all of the time so hard for me to understand the argument to force a university to add another sport such as baseball in order to join. Hartford was an affiliate of the MVC for tennis and Dallas Baptist is an affiliate for baseball and that says it all. Like Barry Alvarez said when asked a few years ago about the possibility of Univ of Wisconsin Badgers bringing back baseball..."why would we do that...alternatively if we were redesigning the athletic program we would have as few sports as possible outside of the major revenue sports as we would rather have fewer sports so that all athletic programs are highly funded and loaded for success".

[Yote 53]

Yup. If Sanford has the $ to turn Augustana into a DI school, they can certainly help out a couple of Summit teams with getting baseball going. USD doesn't have baseball but they have a 4-field softball facility, plus plenty of room to expand to the north or east (as near as I can tell from google maps)...buy up a bit of that farmland across the road from the softball facility and put in a baseball stadium (https://i.imgur.com/waMfBfE.png)...or see about expanding one of the existing softball fields to work for baseball. Doesn't have to be spectacular, just has to be usable. They already have a dome for winter/early spring indoor practices too.

UND might be a bit harder, since it's so much further north (generally colder longer than the south edge of South Dakota), and they're a bit more limited on space than USD. UMKC has a similar limitation on space around their campus, but they could make something work further out, or maybe just partner with nearby Rockhurst University (DII) which has a baseball stadium that's so close that it's practically on UMKC's official campus map (it's like 2 blocks from UMKC's campus). Chip in a bit of $ to upgrade it a bit, work out scheduling between the two teams, and you're all set. Hell, the two schools primary color is a nearly identical shade of blue...won't even have to repaint the stadium.

That does seem odd about Iowa schools not having baseball, especially considering the College World Series stadium is literally a half mile from the Iowa border.

USD could just go back to playing at Prentis Park where the club team plays right now.

[clenz]

USD could just go back to playing at Prentis Park where the club team plays right now.
It wouldn't take an amazing stadium to field a team. I would guess USD would gladly add baseball back if Sanford offered to help.

[ST_Lawson]

USD could just go back to playing at Prentis Park where the club team plays right now.

Also a possibility. I was thinking that'd be further from campus, but looking again, it looks like that area around it is probably quite a bit of student apartments/frats and sororities (sorry, never been to Vermillion). Might need a bit of updating, but it could work.

[IBleedYellow]

https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/committees/d1/council/Jun2019D1Council_Report.pdf


"Review of Reclassification Process. (Fairness/Well-Being/Operational)The Strategic Vision and Planning Committee will continue to discusswhether an institution should have an opportunity to reclassify fromDivision III to Division I, without first requiring that institution be aDivision II member, noting the importance of ensuring preparedness forDivision I membership."

[uni88]

I've heard the same on Alvarez.

There are a number of reasons that Iowa schools don't have baseball - and honestly if the BTN didn't start kicking the tens on tens on tens of millions of dollars a year when it did - I highly doubt Iowa would have it right now. Not that the cost of baseball, alone, at UNI, Iowa State or Iowa is/was a major issue (though UNI it certainly was more so) but Iowa State getting the $30m a year now, or whatever it is they get from bending over and letting Texas decide the fate of the B12, would have stopped the program from being dropped. Iowa State and UNI had some Title IX issues on top of the finance side of it.

It's not that UNI didn't have the money for baseball, as a sport. It was extra issues on top of it. UNI doesn't have a stadium and was sharing a stadium in Waterloo with the Northwoods League team. It's a **** stadium in a mostly **** part of town. Playing baseball 25 minutes off campus, in a **** stadium, while being bad is a bad recipe for keeping a team. The financial issues were more so the Waterloo Bucks requiring UNI to do most/all of the upkeep on the stadium and improvements. Players were the ones raking the field. UNI was the one buying the chalk/paint for the lines, mowing the grass, etc. On top of that the stadium floods like crazy every spring (I think that's been remedied since UNI dropped the program). This caused major upkeep issues, as well as actually being able to play at home consistently. They've upgraded the stadium significantly since then, but back when UNI had baseball the stands were old painted wood bleachers and the concessions and restrooms hadn't been upgraded since the 70s or 80s. The stadium was built in 1946 and outside of a reno in the 70s or 80s it went untouched

To show how bad the stadium was the Midwest League team, last known as the Waterloo Diamonds, left Waterloo to become the Springfield Sultans before the 1994 season after the city of Waterloo failed to improve the stadium to meet Major League Baseball's newly imposed standards for minor league ballparks. The Diamonds evolved into today's Lansing Lugnuts of the Midwest League. The stadium was so bad the MiLB team that played there had to relocated. The Bucks started play the next season and joined the Northwoods League and the stadium remained unchanged.

So UNI was playing 25 minutes off campus, in a stadium so bad teams were forced to relocate, in a stadium that holds 5k in front of crowds of 50, while being forced to do all their own maintenance and upkeep to the field and stadium along with paying rental fees.

It wasn't baseball that was too expensive or the issue. It was Title IX and the extra stuff with the stadium that killed the program.

UNI Baseball used to play on a field behind the Dome. It wasn't much of a step up from an intramural or park district field.

[uni88]

The MVC looked REAL hard, at Denver when Loyola was added. They were told if they were to add baseball and/or softball they'd get an invite. They came back with "No...and we'd like to leave our soccer teams in the WAC but other than that we accept".

Then Loyola was added.

Denver is unique in that they have amazing academics and care greatly about niche sports but not what everyone else does. They want to attract high academic students (great for them on that) and found a great way to use their location to target affluent (often higher academic achieving - research backs that up) students that love the local niche sports/activities.

They've carved out a fantastic model for themselves, it just doesn't fit "well" into D1 athletics

Denver was one of 88.2's finalists for college. Their academics are good and trending up but I wouldn't call them amazing. The location and upward trend in academics were appealing.

And they do love their lacrosse and hockey teams. School spirit is pretty big there.

[Laker]

USD could just go back to playing at Prentis Park where the club team plays right now.

Did USD drop baseball due to Title IX or just general disinterest?

[clenz]

IIRC it was like 95% Title IX - at least that's what I remember from news reports at the time. Maybe I misremember it

I think the move only saved like 100-125k, but the scholarships and "athletic opportunities presented" was a swing of like 40 towards Title IX. I remember football also set a participant limit from like 115 to 90 or 95. That I remember well because it was 2004, my JR year of HS, and i was going through the recruiting process and the idea that the school was cutting numbers and money like that didn't set well with me as a recruit.

[Yote 53]

Did USD drop baseball due to Title IX or just general disinterest?

Combination of the two. This was way back, years prior to the move up to Division 1, so moving up in classification had nothing to do with cutting baseball. The program was in shambles with coaching and player issues. At the same time, the former director of women's athletics sued the school for Title 9 reasons, and won. Never mind the fact she was horrible at her job, with all the women's programs sucking under her guidance, and she was having a relationship with one of the female coaches under her supervision, which were the real causes for her termination. Don't get me started, I hate that b----. It was relatively easy to solve some of the Title 9 issues by axing the baseball program because there was not too much good going on with it.

[ccd494]

Weather is also an issue with baseball. The season starts in February. This past season Maine started the year with 18 straight road non-conference games. And, the guarantee that big schools pay rarely covers the cost of the trip. That included:

-Weekend 4 game set at Florida State
-Weekend 3 game set at Maryland
-Weekend 3 game set at Liberty
-Weekend 3 game set at Mississippi State

Then, over Maine's Spring break:

-Friday-Sunday 3 games at Samford
-Tuesday at Alabama
-Wednesday at Troy

America East then schedules Maine on the road for the first two weeks (at Binghamton and Stony Brook) to factor in melting snow.

Home opener is April 6. And this was a GOOD weather Spring, two or three years ago Maine lost 5-6 home games to weather.

PLUS you need to be able to practice indoors in between all that travel.

The NCAA used to have true regionals, where there was a guarantee that a team from the Northeast, and one from the North Central, would be in the College World Series each year. And, the season used to start later. Moves away from both have completely concentrated the sport's power in the South and West. Looking at the historical list of College World Series teams, you see teams like Maine with 7 appearances, Northern Colorado with 10, etc. But none past the 1980's. Having a small D-1 team in the north at this point, is probably an expensive folly.

[Professor Chaos]

Weather is also an issue with baseball. The season starts in February. This past season Maine started the year with 18 straight road non-conference games. And, the guarantee that big schools pay rarely covers the cost of the trip. That included:

-Weekend 4 game set at Florida State
-Weekend 3 game set at Maryland
-Weekend 3 game set at Liberty
-Weekend 3 game set at Mississippi State

Then, over Maine's Spring break:

-Friday-Sunday 3 games at Samford
-Tuesday at Alabama
-Wednesday at Troy

America East then schedules Maine on the road for the first two weeks (at Binghamton and Stony Brook) to factor in melting snow.

Home opener is April 6. And this was a GOOD weather Spring, two or three years ago Maine lost 5-6 home games to weather.

PLUS you need to be able to practice indoors in between all that travel.

The NCAA used to have true regionals, where there was a guarantee that a team from the Northeast, and one from the North Central, would be in the College World Series each year. And, the season used to start later. Moves away from both have completely concentrated the sport's power in the South and West. Looking at the historical list of College World Series teams, you see teams like Maine with 7 appearances, Northern Colorado with 10, etc. But none past the 1980's. Having a small D-1 team in the north at this point, is probably an expensive folly.
The last 2 seasons NDSU baseball hasn't had their home opener until late April because of lingering snow and cold weather. It's gotta be tough for these northern baseball programs to play on the road for 2 months or more to start each season.

[clenz]

The last 2 seasons NDSU baseball hasn't had their home opener until late April because of lingering snow and cold weather. It's gotta be tough for these northern baseball programs to play on the road for 2 months or more to start each season.
I didn't want to bring it up when talking about UNI/Iowa State/Drake because Minnesota, SDSU and NDSU having baseball - I'm smart enough to avoid most bullets.

But yeah - the cost/strain of sending a team on a 2 plus month south of the south and west is pretty tough.

At least at UNI with softball we can/do play games in the UNIDome.

[ccd494]

I didn't want to bring it up when talking about UNI/Iowa State/Drake because Minnesota, SDSU and NDSU having baseball - I'm smart enough to avoid most bullets.

But yeah - the cost/strain of sending a team on a 2 plus month south of the south and west is pretty tough.

At least at UNI with softball we can/do play games in the UNIDome.

Maine has played softball in football's indoor practice bubble as needed.

[dbackjon]

I didn't want to bring it up when talking about UNI/Iowa State/Drake because Minnesota, SDSU and NDSU having baseball - I'm smart enough to avoid most bullets.

But yeah - the cost/strain of sending a team on a 2 plus month south of the south and west is pretty tough.

At least at UNI with softball we can/do play games in the UNIDome.

If NAU had a little more foresight and built the Skydome a little bit bigger, a baseball diamond would have fit in it.

Until NAU gets a separate basketball facility, softball wouldn't work in the dome. NAU used to have both sports, but doesn't have either.

[ST_Lawson]

I didn't want to bring it up when talking about UNI/Iowa State/Drake because Minnesota, SDSU and NDSU having baseball - I'm smart enough to avoid most bullets.

But yeah - the cost/strain of sending a team on a 2 plus month south of the south and west is pretty tough.

At least at UNI with softball we can/do play games in the UNIDome.

We're obviously not as far north as Iowa and the Dakotas, but we struggle with that here as well. This last season, we had to play our first "home" series of the season down in Springfield, IL (~2 hours south) due to weather issues, and that was after playing our first 14 games (5 OOC series) away (and further south). It wasn't until April 19th that we played any games further north than Omaha. There have been other years where we've had to move a decent number of games as well. Season starts mid-February, but you pretty much can't play on our field until mid-March at the earliest...if you're lucky.

Don't have an indoor practice facility either, although they do get some practicing in on our (turf) football field when they can.

[Laker]

MSU will have a bubble this year for teams to practice in from November to April. That means they can host softball games. St Cloud plays softball under their bubble- there are several others around (Dundas has one that Iowa college teams come up to play in).

Northern baseball schools would like to have the season start later and end in July. I talked to longtime Gopher coach about this- he said that the southern teams would never go for it but he has lost several prospects, especially pitchers, over this. If you look at the size of the crowds in ACC, Big 12 and SEC country you see what a huge advantage they have when it comes to hosting a regional.

Two years ago the Gopher softball team was ranked #1 in the country. But they didn't get a top 16 seed. This year they hosted the regional AND the super regional against LSU. Playing at home was a HUGE advantage and they advanced to the CWS for the first time.

[clenz]

There's a reason Iowa still plays baseball in the summer - from end of May through first week of August.

I remember growing up through HS and seeing damn near every baseball game out of MN postponed or canceled it seemed like.

I can't say I remember SD having school sponsored HS baseball. I never remember hearing scores or highlights on KELO. I do remember legion ball.

[Thumper 76]

So I don’t remember seeing it on this thread yet, but Sanford is giving $250k to every Summit school for scholarships. Sounds like they’re maybe trying to buy votes for Augie IMO.......


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[clenz]

So I don’t remember seeing it on this thread yet, but Sanford is giving $250k to every Summit school for scholarships. Sounds like they’re maybe trying to buy votes for Augie IMO.......


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI would agree with that take. I was confused if it was a 1 time 250k or recurring. I read the word endowed, which 250k over an entire athletic department doesn't last as an endowment for very long

That also frees up 250k at places like UND or USD or UMKC to put towards a baseball fund.

[dbackjon]

I would agree with that take. I was confused if it was a 1 time 250k or recurring. I read the word endowed, which 250k over an entire athletic department doesn't last as an endowment for very long

That also frees up 250k at places like UND or USD or UMKC to put towards a baseball fund.

If it truly is an endowment (which only the earnings are spent, it would generate about 12,500 a year - or for more schools, mostly fund a scholarship. But hey, more than they have now.

[abc123]

I would agree with that take. I was confused if it was a 1 time 250k or recurring. I read the word endowed, which 250k over an entire athletic department doesn't last as an endowment for very long

That also frees up 250k at places like UND or USD or UMKC to put towards a baseball fund.

Despite having the most "in-balance" ratio of M:F enrollment/participation/financial aid of the 4 Dakota schools, UND isn't bringing baseball back because that immediately gives ammo for the vocal minority to push for the return of women's ice hockey and its $2 million+ annual deficits to be back on the table.

The current stadium is not great, but adequate enough and the former coach is now employed by the University Alumni Foundation and would likely jump back at a chance to take over the team, but it just isn't happening.

Maybe if Douple would have accepted UND and UNC as affiliate members 6-7 years ago instead of ignore their applications, it might have played out differently and the Summit would have a little extra breathing room in baseball but not much you can do about that now.

[mvfcfan]

I wonder if the MVC would allow NDSU, SDSU, and WIU to be affiliate members for baseball if the Summit cant figure things out.

[taper]

I wonder if the MVC would allow NDSU, SDSU, and WIU to be affiliate members for baseball if the Summit cant figure things out.

What's the point of that? If Summit drops baseball it almost certainly means the Summit has dissolved. We'd need an all sport home and the MVC isn't taking all of us.

[TheKingpin28]

What's the point of that? If Summit drops baseball it almost certainly means the Summit has dissolved. We'd need an all sport home and the MVC isn't taking all of us.The problem is that 4 Dakota schools would be a package and that package is too big for a conference looking to add people without kicking members out.

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[dgtw]

The MVC has eight baseball schools, including one affiliate. That is a good number.


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[Shockerman]

The Valley would never likely offer the XDSU's a baseball home. If, and it's a major if, Dallas Babtist left the Valley for some unknown reason than maybe. Right now it is a partnership that is working for everyone very well though. It would require some investment in their baseball program from the Dakota's though. Scheduling wise, 10 baseball programs works better though as I believe right now some of the schools or forced to host late ooc series with terrible RPI opponents because of gaps in the conference schedule.

[Bisonator]

I wonder if the MVC would allow NDSU, SDSU, and WIU to be affiliate members for baseball if the Summit cant figure things out.


The MVC has eight baseball schools, including one affiliate. That is a good number.


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The Valley would never likely offer the XDSU's a baseball home. If, and it's a major if, Dallas Babtist left the Valley for some unknown reason than maybe. Right now it is a partnership that is working for everyone very well though. It would require some investment in their baseball program from the Dakota's though. Scheduling wise, 10 baseball programs works better though as I believe right now some of the schools or forced to host late ooc series with terrible RPI opponents because of gaps in the conference schedule.
Why are y'all even talking about this? It would do nothing to save the Summit's basketball auto bid, in fact it would kill it! The Summit needs to keep all the baseball teams they have and add more!

[Laker]

The Valley would never likely offer the XDSU's a baseball home. If, and it's a major if, Dallas Babtist left the Valley for some unknown reason than maybe. Right now it is a partnership that is working for everyone very well though. It would require some investment in their baseball program from the Dakota's though. Scheduling wise, 10 baseball programs works better though as I believe right now some of the schools or forced to host late ooc series with terrible RPI opponents because of gaps in the conference schedule.

I was told 20 years ago that DBU had the money to go full D1. So why haven't they? It would have made more sense than HBU going D1.

And the Shockers should bring back football, for no other reason that would be a great helmet.

[mvfcfan]

I was simply suggesting that maybe the MVC would take the 2 Dakota schools for baseball only, if the Summit League loses their baseball auto bid. This has nothing to do with basketball or any other sports. My guess is that Augie gets added and we won't have to worry about that but you never know.

[dgtw]

So if they lose baseball it costs them a basketball autobid?


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[Hammersmith]

I was simply suggesting that maybe the MVC would take the 2 Dakota schools for baseball only, if the Summit League loses their baseball auto bid. This has nothing to do with basketball or any other sports. My guess is that Augie gets added and we won't have to worry about that but you never know.

If the baseball autobid disappears, so does the basketball autobid.

The requirements for a DI MBB autobid include having two other men's team sport autobids. For the Summit, those two sports are soccer and baseball. If the Summit loses either of those autobids, the MBB autobid is also in jeopardy. There is an automatic 2-year grace period plus the possibility of additional waivers by the NCAA if the baseball autobid is lost, but there must be a plan in place to address the situation before it's likely the waiver will be given(for instance, a DII move-up that technically doesn't meet the requirement yet, but will within a year or two - aka Augie or StT).