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Professor Chaos
March 27th, 2018, 11:56 AM
Interesting article from Yahoo's Pat Forde regarding Loyola-Chicago and how close they came to never even making the tournament: https://sports.yahoo.com/loyola-chicagos-final-four-run-reveals-flaws-ncaa-tournaments-selection-process-034007234.html

He basically uses this as the basis for his argument that more consideration needs to be given to mid-major at large candidates. However, I see some flaws to his argument. First, it's not like Loyola-Chicago has been blowing teams away proving that they should've been a no-brainer inclusion even had they lost in the MVC tournament. Had their buzzer beaters not went in that allowed them to beat both Miami and Tennessee on the first weekend of the tournament they would've been a tournament footnote at best. To me that just underscores the parity in the game today which is a good thing IMO.

Second, he talks about how 5-10 years ago there was an average of 8 mid-major teams that received at large bids and that's now down to an average of 3 over the last three years. But he fails to point out that this is because the best mid-major programs have gotten raided by the big conferences. 10 years ago the Pac 12 had 2 less teams, the Big Ten had 3 less teams, the ACC had 4 less teams, and the SEC had 2 less teams. Offset the two teams the Big 12 loss and that's 9 more schools in the P5. Beyond that the 14 team Big East has since morphed into the AAC and Big East which now includes 22 teams among them. So if you take away 17 of the best mid-major schools and put them in "major" conferences you're probably going to see mid-major at large bids decline.

Now to the point of how to fix it. He basically mentions more representation for the non-FBS schools on the committee (6 of the 10 selection committee members are from the 10 FBS conferences while only 4 of the 10 committee members are from the 21 non-FBS leagues). I think that's a part of it but I have a hard time seeing how adding a committee member from say the Big South is going to help the argument for St Mary's out of the WCC to get a bid over Oklahoma from the Big 12. To me there's really only two solutions (other than expanding the field) if you want ensure that the best mid-majors get a shot in the big dance:

Give the conference autobid to the regular season champ not the tournament champ.
Put in some provision that hurts the high major bubble teams like make it a requirement that a team must have a winning record (or maybe just a .500 record) in conference to be in consideration for an at-large bid.


I don't know if I'm a fan of either of them. I love championship week so, as a fan of a mid-major, I wouldn't want to see the first one implemented. The second one would be a better option IMO but because it hurts the high major team I don't see it ever passing. Honestly, I'm fine with the system the way it is now. To me Loyola-Chicago making the Final Four is just more proof of the parity in college basketball and doesn't mean the system needs to be overhauled. Just enjoy it as a fan because it's probably going to be a long time before another team outside of the "Big 7 conferences" makes it to a Final Four.

I'm done rambling. Thoughts? Is the selection system broken? If so, how would you fix it?

TheRevSFA
March 27th, 2018, 12:48 PM
I don’t think any AQ team should have to play in a first four game. Make the last 8 at large teams play in Dayton for the 11 seed

dewey
March 27th, 2018, 02:01 PM
I don’t think any AQ team should have to play in a first four game. Make the last 8 at large teams play in Dayton for the 11 seed

Agreed. I wish they would have never added those play in games (first round games or whatever it is called).

Dewey

Laker
March 27th, 2018, 02:36 PM
Agreed. I wish they would have never added those play in games (first round games or whatever it is called).

Dewey

This.

Expanding the field to 68 was NEVER about letting more midmajors in. It was always about more big schools getting in. They should have left it at 64, but they didn't want to deal with the complaints. Having a #11 seed in the play in round defies all logic.

bonarae
March 27th, 2018, 05:22 PM
I believe the selection system is broken. The First Four should be all autobids... then all the big schools must be in the 64 right away.

JayJ79
March 27th, 2018, 06:32 PM
speaking of the First Four games, there seems to be alot of people who are convinced that the 8 "First Four" participants don't all get a full "unit" of the "basketball fund" payout for playing in that game. However, the only sources I can find all indicate that a total of 132 units are given out in total.
8 units for the First Four
64 units for the first round (round of 64, or whatever it is called)
32 units for the secong round (round of 32)
16 units for the Sweet Sixteen
8 units for the Elite Eight
4 units for the Final Four
(championship game participants don't get extra units for that game)
--------------------
that all totals to 132

TheRevSFA
March 29th, 2018, 10:27 AM
I believe the selection system is broken. The First Four should be all autobids... then all the big schools must be in the 64 right away.

Why?

bonarae
March 29th, 2018, 10:34 AM
Okay. So here are the problems being posed:

1. Some autobids are often not deserving of a Dance bid yet they get into the tournament anyway. Which poses question #2.
2. The First Four must be composed of all autobids who could have stayed home or in the pay to play tournaments had they not won the conference tournament.
3. I also believe that there should be a bowl-style percentage "quota" for teams entering conference tournaments so that the teams in #2 may not be realized at all, and that the NIT should ideally be for at large teams who wouldn't fit in the bubble.
4. I think 68 is too much already as well, much like the 24 in the FCS playoffs currently.

xtwocentsx

Sent from my LG-H870DS using Tapatalk

TheRevSFA
March 29th, 2018, 10:51 AM
Okay. So here are the problems being posed:

1. Some autobids are often not deserving of a Dance bid yet they get into the tournament anyway. Which poses question #2.
2. The First Four must be composed of all autobids who could have stayed home or in the pay to play tournaments had they not won the conference tournament.
3. I also believe that there should be a bowl-style percentage "quota" for teams entering conference tournaments so that the teams in #2 may not be realized at all, and that the NIT should ideally be for at large teams who wouldn't fit in the bubble.
4. I think 68 is too much already as well, much like the 24 in the FCS playoffs currently.

xtwocentsx

Sent from my LG-H870DS using Tapatalk

So Loyola wouldn't have been in the tourney had they not won the conference tourney and look at where they are now..playing Michigan for a championship spot...

If the conferences don't want teams to get in, get rid of conference tourneys. Pretty simple.

Also - how many teams were deserving to get in but didn't due to losing in the tourney. MTSU, USC..while Syracuse got in.

bonarae
March 29th, 2018, 04:58 PM
So Loyola wouldn't have been in the tourney had they not won the conference tourney and look at where they are now..playing Michigan for a championship spot...

If the conferences don't want teams to get in, get rid of conference tourneys. Pretty simple.

Also - how many teams were deserving to get in but didn't due to losing in the tourney. MTSU, USC..while Syracuse got in.

The conference tournaments seem like a double standard to me... xsmhx For money reasons and for making March mad.

JayJ79
March 30th, 2018, 01:40 AM
The 30th+ at-large bids aren't any more "deserving" of a spot in the dance than any of the autobids. If any of those at-large bids were deserving, they would have done better in their own conference.

Every division I conference deserves at least one spot in the NCAA tourney.

Professor Chaos
March 30th, 2018, 12:16 PM
speaking of the First Four games, there seems to be alot of people who are convinced that the 8 "First Four" participants don't all get a full "unit" of the "basketball fund" payout for playing in that game. However, the only sources I can find all indicate that a total of 132 units are given out in total.
8 units for the First Four
64 units for the first round (round of 64, or whatever it is called)
32 units for the secong round (round of 32)
16 units for the Sweet Sixteen
8 units for the Elite Eight
4 units for the Final Four
(championship game participants don't get extra units for that game)
--------------------
that all totals to 132
That is interesting. So, financially speaking, it's better for a mid-major team/conference to be in a First Four game rather that a #16 seed that plays a #1 seed right away because then you at least have a legit shot at winning the game (unless you're UMBC I guess - then it doesn't matter) and collecting that 2nd game share for the conference.



4. I think 68 is too much already as well, much like the 24 in the FCS playoffs currently.

This boils down to the same argument as it in the FCS playoffs. If you view the tournament's sole purpose as just determining a national champion then making it 32 teams or even 16 is probably fine. However, I view the NCAA Tournament (and the FCS playoffs for that matter) as more than that. It's about the journey just as much as the destination if you will. Case in point, whoever wins the title on Monday (even if it's Loyola-Chicago) won't feel the elation that those guys from UMBC felt when they beat Virginia. That was equivalent to winning a national title for them. The same can be said for Marshall who won their first tournament game ever. 10 years from now not many people will remember who won the title (unless Loyola-Chicago pulls it off) but I guarantee people will still be talking about and recalling UMBC's historic upset. That's what makes the NCAA Tournament uniquely special in my eyes and why I'd hate to see the field reduced just because it would rob us of part of that journey.

That said I'm not a big fan of going any higher than 64 or 68 either. I do remember back when they expanded from 65 to 68 there was serious talk of going to 96 and I really didn't like that idea.