No more Knight for Holy Cross

[bonarae]

... in the logo, that is. PC at it again.

http://www.fcs.football/cfb/story.asp?i=20180315144143674674308&ref=rec&tm=&src=FCS

[DFW HOYA]

PC at HC.

http://www.telegram.com/news/20180315/holy-cross-to-dump-knight-mascot-keep-crusaders-name

[JacksFan40]

I’m not surprised by this. I’ll end it at that since this isn’t the political board.

[WWII]

Sigh. xeyebrowx

[PaladinFan]

We got you.

[Sader87]

It's not the Holy Cross it once was....sad. Both the school's academic and athletic reputations are a shadow of what they were 30, 40 years ago.

[Model Citizen]

Thankfully, Valparaiso, Indiana is 30 years behind all trends.

[dewey]

Good Lord this PC stuff is getting out of control.

Dewey

[TennBison]

So much for the image of a Knight in Shining Armor being a positive image.

[PaladinFan]

I would honestly be interested to know who is offended by a crusader. The crusades were 800-1000 years ago, and I bet most folks couldn’t tell you the first thing about them.

Next Holy Cross will be eliminating “holy” and “cross” from the University.

[UNHWildcat18]

What a ****ing joke, that guy has no balls. nor does anyone else at that school. Ties us to the wars of the crusades blah blah blah. Where the **** is the adult in the room to say that's literally never crossed anyone's mind or offended anyone...ever who hears or sees anything holy cross. This is what happens when you let the crazy people have a voice.

[Mattymc727]

Its Massachusetts, you guys surprised?

[Laker]

I'm old school- I'm not sure who is offended by an image of a knight. My guess is someone who wants to complain about something.

Elon used to be called the Fighting Christians. Then someone was either offended by the Fighting, or else by the Christians. So they became the Phoenix. Since there can only be one Phoenix, you can't have a Phoenixes. The school song should be "By The Time I Get To Phoenix".

I still think that the billionaire should buy the school and rename the team the Elon Musk.

[CFBfan]

Good Lord this PC stuff is getting out of control.

Dewey

it's way past "getting" it's over the cliff

[WWII]

Wasn't Martin Luther King a crusader? It's racist!

[Bisonator]

jfc what's nextxsmhx

[POD Knows]

How many schools do think have Knights as a mascot? I could be hundreds. This whole thing is pretty lame but should be expected when the insane are in power at these colleges

[BEAR]

What's going on up north?

It feels all Rapey....

http://www.trbimg.com/img-51672b02/turbine/hc-uconn-logo-20130404-011/522/522x500

[RichH2]

The epitome of inane PC. If indeed there is anyone who could have been insulted by original logo they will ,I believe,still be miffed with the helmet logo.I am at a loss to understand how either logo is could now deemed inappropriate.

[clenz]

Thankfully, Valparaiso, Indiana is 30 years behind all trends.
There’s talk from what I’ve heard.

[UNHWildcat18]

What's going on up north?

It feels all Rapey....

http://www.trbimg.com/img-51672b02/turbine/hc-uconn-logo-20130404-011/522/522x500

DUDE AHAHA I remember that! UCONN releases new logo, a girl writes to the god damn president how the new logo is a sign of aggression and violence and supports rape and other violent acts on campus. President told her to basically **** off. I'd hate to be her parents

[phoenix3]

I'm old school- I'm not sure who is offended by an image of a knight. My guess is someone who wants to complain about something.

Elon used to be called the Fighting Christians. Then someone was either offended by the Fighting, or else by the Christians. So they became the Phoenix. Since there can only be one Phoenix, you can't have a Phoenixes. The school song should be "By The Time I Get To Phoenix".

I still think that the billionaire should buy the school and rename the team the Elon Musk.
Yep, from something honorable and noble to a pagan symbol. This is what's being crammed down our children's throats in just about every case. BNW.

[Go Green]

I would honestly be interested to know who is offended by a crusader. The crusades were 800-1000 years ago, and I bet most folks couldn’t tell you the first thing about them.
.

My high school was called the Saracens. We dropped it when we merged with an all-girls school, and both schools agreed to a "new" mascot.

[Tuna85]

Age of Reason to Age of Enlightenment ...to Age of PC. De-evolution is real.

[Scooter]

List of names approved by PC crowd.
The blankets
Pomegranates
Figs
Starfish
Hummingbirds
Oprahs

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

This is sad to see.

[WWII]

One of the guys that was on my rugby team was from Nebraska. His H.S. was the Benson Bunnies. I assume that they've been able to keep their nickname and mascot.

[KPSUL]

Yep, from something honorable and noble to a pagan symbol. This is what's being crammed down our children's throats in just about every case. BNW.

Prior to 2000 I was so looking forward to a battle between the Crusaders and the Fighting Christians!

[Lion1983]

List of names approved by PC crowd.
The blankets
Pomegranates
Figs
Starfish
Hummingbirds
Oprahs

The buddy bench
The safe zone
The unsure
The anti freedom

I think that about covers it.

[Doc QB]

And....our US Military Academy is....wait for it....the Black Knights.
Discuss.

[POD Knows]

The buddy bench
The safe zone
The unsure
The anti freedom

I think that about covers it.

The Safety Pins
The Crayons
The Pussy Hats
The Ragin' Antifa's

The list is endless.

[McNeese72]

Not surprising! The liberal establishment doesn't want anything that could possibly construed as anti-muslim.

Doc

[youcanbankit]

LOL....lets be ridiculous for a minute. How about we.....get rid of any references to Demons, Devils, Dogs, Cats, Animals, Insects, Reptiles, Earth, Sky, Planets, anything Solar, Man/woman made stuff, combine all sports to co-ed with genderless participants, no sports for children, Presidents, Kings, queens, Card Games, Chess, Checkers, tiddly winks, marbles, statues of any kind, colors, clothing, and all mascots of any kind. History books, all books must only be on the internet so no one can own any information, only what a select group can publish. Lets not reference anything real or historic and only live our lives in a digital form of made up characters that are violent and horribly graphic.

If it keeps up. there will be a revolution. oh and any reference to revolution. lol!!!

[JacksFan40]

And....our US Military Academy is....wait for it....the Black Knights.
Discuss.
I can only imagine how much BS they’ll make up to make that name racist.

[JacksFan40]

LOL....lets be ridiculous for a minute. How about we.....get rid of any references to Demons, Devils, Dogs, Cats, Animals, Insects, Reptiles, Earth, Sky, Planets, anything Solar, Man/woman made stuff, combine all sports to co-ed with genderless participants, no sports for children, Presidents, Kings, queens, Card Games, Chess, Checkers, tiddly winks, marbles, statues of any kind, colors, clothing, and all mascots of any kind. History books, all books must only be on the internet so no one can own any information, only what a select group can publish. Lets not reference anything real or historic and only live our lives in a digital form of made up characters that are violent and horribly graphic.

If it keeps up. there will be a revolution. oh and any reference to revolution. lol!!!
The only history we can keep is how great communism and socialism is, other than that burn all other history books and crap.

[Go Green]

And....our US Military Academy is....wait for it....the Black Knights.

For now.

http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/04/13/army-to-keep-using-black-knights-nickname-after-all/

[DFW HOYA]

"The... primary mark perfectly portrays the soldier scholar ideal. Athena’s helmet symbolizes wisdom while the sword represents the warrior ready for battle. Soldier Scholar."

Instead, HC will get something silly like this.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS9ipB-JsVeMwGARfTdJ7p8S9MVhHkoD2j8-1zWLRoi8C6_zq6s_Q

[RichH2]

"The... primary mark perfectly portrays the soldier scholar ideal. Athena’s helmet symbolizes wisdom while the sword represents the warrior ready for battle. Soldier Scholar."

Instead, HC will get something silly like this.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS9ipB-JsVeMwGARfTdJ7p8S9MVhHkoD2j8-1zWLRoi8C6_zq6s_Q
+1xdrunkyx

[unknown3]

ITT a bunch of dudes crying

[UNHWildcat18]

Funny enough, was down in Boston for St.Patricks Day weekend and met some Holy Cross alumni. Two football players and a field hockey player. They were furious over the decision by the university to the point of saying they probably wouldn't donate to the school overall. They were definitely not on the liberal side of the spectrum that's for sure. One might think that's a little extreme to say but still. I wouldn't be surprised if they got a ton of backlash from alumni behind the eye of the general public

[WileECoyote06]

The problem isn’t the knight image it’s the crusaders nickname. All Arthurian knight school mascots should be fine.

That being said, this decision is stupid. *shrug*

[POD Knows]

The problem isn’t the knight image it’s the crusaders nickname. All Arthurian knight school mascots should be fine.

That being said, this decision is stupid. *shrug*What is wrong with the crusaders nickname. Should we banish the word from the English language?

[clenz]

What is wrong with the crusaders nickname. Should we banish the word from the English language?
Not that I agree with the idea of banishing the name but it would be the equivalent of say....a Muslim based school going by the Jihadists.

[Pinnum]

Dropping the Knight but keeping the Crusader and shield?

So who runs out at pep rallies and games? Will the new mascot be a shield? Or will they do away with a mascot and over time transition the other monikers as well until they have removed it all?

[ElCid]

Not that I agree with the idea of banishing the name but it would be the equivalent of say....a Muslim based school going by the Jihadists.

No it would not.

[WileECoyote06]

Not that I agree with the idea of banishing the name but it would be the equivalent of say....a Muslim based school going by the Jihadists.

Yep, I imagine that is their rationale.

[DFW HOYA]

Apparently, historical mascots aren't a problem in Division III.

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/2455625906/slg8puj2hxmaagpkwc14.png

[POD Knows]

Not that I agree with the idea of banishing the name but it would be the equivalent of say....a Muslim based school going by the Jihadists.Yea, not equivalent but I get it. Onward and downward.

[grayghost06]

Good grief. Will it ever end? I weep for our future.

[clenz]

Yea, not equivalent but I get it. Onward and downward.
Catholics/christians will claim that Crusaders went on crusades that resulted in the death of roughly 1.7 million people in the name of Christ (about 5% of the worlds population at the time) and they were justified for reasons X, Y and Z. The entire puprose of the crusade - and crusaders - was the kill non-Christians and claim the world in the name of God.

Some sects of Islam will claim that Jihad is not what ISIS and the like do, but for this case we'll lump it together because you're going to anyway. Jihad is seen outside of the Islamic faith as killing non-Muslims in the name of claiming the world in the name of Allah....interestingly enough God, Allah and Yahweh are the same deity...but whatever)

The difference in perception of if it is a relatively close comparison lies almost entirely on your religious affiliation. If you're a Christian you' think it's outrageous. Jihadists are murderous scum. If your a Muslim it's asinine because Crusaders were murderous scum.

I grant it's far from an exact comparison, but it's not as completely outrageous as those who were pissed off at Obama a few years ago want to make it.

Again, I think the idea of forcing Holy Cross to get rid of the name is over the top. Just as it is about 99% of the forced name changes. I'm waiting for 2 local high schools in my area to fall victim to it. One is called the Indians.

Their logos are
http://dehayf5mhw1h7.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/sites/400/2017/02/23121116/Marion-Arrow.pnghttp://dehayf5mhw1h7.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/sites/400/2015/09/24141830/Marion-Logo.jpg

It's a school that is 99.9% white in a town that is 93.7% white and just 1.2% Native American. There is a creek in town called Indian Creed. An elementary in the other school district in town in Indian Creek Elementary (that high school is the Lions though). Recently they've started moving over a more generic M logo and not using the arrow head as much and I think the cheifton is almost completely gone.

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/scorestream-team-profile-pictures/teamPicThumb117621-32136-1qln1fx.png


The other local team goes by Warriors. This is the name that if it becomes target I'd actually lose my **** over. They use a Spartain...or Trojan...warrior for a logo along with a generic W that is the Wisconsin W with a shadow
http://www.thegazette.com/storyimage/GA/20160712/ARTICLE/160719888/AR/0/AR-160719888.jpg&MaxH=500&MaxW=900



Again, I restate I'm not against the Crusader name or a knight mascot. Not even close. I just think it'd be interesting to see how a large chunk of people would react to Al-Zaytuna College Jihadists with a logo similar to this

http://www.americanfreedomlawcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/muslim-brotherhood-logo-500x503-298x300.jpg

[ElCid]

Catholics/christians will claim that Crusaders went on crusades that resulted in the death of roughly 1.7 million people in the name of Christ (about 5% of the worlds population at the time) and they were justified for reasons X, Y and Z. The entire puprose of the crusade - and crusaders - was the kill non-Christians and claim the world in the name of God.

Some sects of Islam will claim that Jihad is not what ISIS and the like do, but for this case we'll lump it together because you're going to anyway. Jihad is seen outside of the Islamic faith as killing non-Muslims in the name of claiming the world in the name of Allah....interestingly enough God, Allah and Yahweh are the same deity...but whatever)

The difference in perception of if it is a relatively close comparison lies almost entirely on your religious affiliation. If you're a Christian you' think it's outrageous. Jihadists are murderous scum. If your a Muslim it's asinine because Crusaders were murderous scum.

I grant it's far from an exact comparison, but it's not as completely outrageous as those who were pissed off at Obama a few years ago want to make it.

Again, I think the idea of forcing Holy Cross to get rid of the name is over the top. Just as it is about 99% of the forced name changes. I'm waiting for 2 local high schools in my area to fall victim to it. One is called the Indians.

Their logos are
http://dehayf5mhw1h7.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/sites/400/2017/02/23121116/Marion-Arrow.pnghttp://dehayf5mhw1h7.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/sites/400/2015/09/24141830/Marion-Logo.jpg

It's a school that is 99.9% white in a town that is 93.7% white and just 1.2% Native American. There is a creek in town called Indian Creed. An elementary in the other school district in town in Indian Creek Elementary (that high school is the Lions though). Recently they've started moving over a more generic M logo and not using the arrow head as much and I think the cheifton is almost completely gone.

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/scorestream-team-profile-pictures/teamPicThumb117621-32136-1qln1fx.png


The other local team goes by Warriors. This is the name that if it becomes target I'd actually lose my **** over. They use a Spartain...or Trojan...warrior for a logo along with a generic W that is the Wisconsin W with a shadow
http://www.thegazette.com/storyimage/GA/20160712/ARTICLE/160719888/AR/0/AR-160719888.jpg&MaxH=500&MaxW=900



Again, I restate I'm not against the Crusader name or a knight mascot. Not even close. I just think it'd be interesting to see how a large chunk of people would react to Al-Zaytuna College Jihadists with a logo similar to this

http://www.americanfreedomlawcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/muslim-brotherhood-logo-500x503-298x300.jpg

If you think the reason for the crusades was to kill people, you don't know anything about the crusades. At least the crusades to "retake" the holy land. A land which was invaded by Arab Muslim armies. Once the holy land was sealed off by the Muslim rulers, after it had been open for the previous 3 centuries, which prevented pilgrims from Christian countries from visiting, a crusade to open them back up was undertaken. This is well known history. That some if its participants didn't live up to the ideals is a different issue. But it certainly was not the "pop" history you cite.

[Lion1983]

If you think the reason for the crusades was to kill people, you don't know anything about the crusades. At least the crusades to "retake" the holy land. A land which was invaded by Arab Muslim armies. Once the holy land was sealed off by the Muslim rulers, after it had been open for the previous 3 centuries, which prevented pilgrims from Christian countries from visiting, a crusade to open them back up was undertaken. This is well known history. That some if its participants didn't live up to the ideals is a different issue. But it certainly was not the "pop" history you cite.

There is a crap ton of stuff they don't teach in history class that they once did. It's kinda sad really. You have to teach and learn the whole subject to get the truth of the situations, you can't just see things in pieces. Not everything was as good as people think, and not everything was as bad as people think. The problem today, the loudest screams get attention, no matter how backwards, immoral, or asinine it may be. Empty cans rattle the loudest, and misery loves company.

[Beer]

Catholics/christians will claim that Crusaders went on crusades that resulted in the death of roughly 1.7 million people in the name of Christ (about 5% of the worlds population at the time)

This percentage is way, way high. That would put the global population at ~34 million when estimates for the year 1100 are ~300 million. The population of Europe alone would have been almost double that at ~62 million. Heck, the population of the Roman Empire was >34 million for most of its existence. That's without considering the fact that the conflict took place over the span of nearly 200 years.

[AmsterBison]

There is a crap ton of stuff they don't teach in history class that they once did. It's kinda sad really. You have to teach and learn the whole subject to get the truth of the situations, you can't just see things in pieces. Not everything was as good as people think, and not everything was as bad as people think. The problem today, the loudest screams get attention, no matter how backwards, immoral, or asinine it may be. Empty cans rattle the loudest, and misery loves company.

They taught a little bit about the Crusades in Catholic school - let's just say that it wasn't a very happy topic. I can't imagine that what they taught about the Crusades before my time in school was even remotely accurate. For example, how would you cover the sacking Constantinople in which Crusaders went on a murdering, raping, vandalizing, and looting spree that left the Byzantine Empire so weakened that the Ottomans were able to destroy it on their way to conquering half of Europe? Heck, if the Ottomans hadn't been stopped at Vienna a couple times, they might have conquered all of Europe. BTW, you can still some of the loot in Venice (like the statues of four horses at St. Mark's which use to be in Constantinople's race track.) Heck, the destruction of the Byzantine Empire, a Christian Empire that had lasted 1000 years, was almost certainly the most lasting effect of the Crusades outside of Europe.

There were very few bright spots - the Hospitallers come to mind. The Templars, on the other hand, were almost all murdering a-holes out for loot and power, Christians in name only.

[BisonBacker]

... in the logo, that is. PC at it again.

http://www.fcs.football/cfb/story.asp?i=20180315144143674674308&ref=rec&tm=&src=FCS

People that support this stupidity make me sick to my stomach. What a bunch of BS. You are correct. PC at it again. This is just BS. Far cry different than some of the other schools that have had to make changes.

[ElCid]

They taught a little bit about the Crusades in Catholic school - let's just say that it wasn't a very happy topic. I can't imagine that what they taught about the Crusades before my time in school was even remotely accurate. For example, how would you over the sacking Constantinople in which Crusaders went on a murdering, raping, vandalizing, and looting spree that left the Byzantine Empire so weakened that the Ottomans were able to destroy it before they went on to conquer half of Europe? Heck, if the Ottomans hadn't been stopped at Vienna a couple times, they might have conquered all of Europe. BTW, you can still some of the loot in Venice (like the statues of four horses at St. Mark's which use to be in Constantinople's race track.) The destruction of the Byzantine Empire, a Christian Empire that had lasted 1000 years, was the most lasting effect of the Crusades outside of Europe.

There were very few bright spots - the Hospitallers come to mind. The Templars, on the other hand, were almost all murdering a-holes out for loot and power, Christians in name only.

What you talking about was the Fourth Crusade and you really can't just give partial information. Part of the reason for the sack was political intrigue by some in Constantinople itself. Basically there was a power struggle going on and one side wanted to use the Crusading army to their benefit. Never a good idea. It was also revenge for murder of tens of thousands of "Latins" 20 years earlier in Constantinople itself. Most were killed along with their families. Survivors were sold to the Turks. Probably at least 50,000 Latins perished. Maybe more. Their property was looted and seized. The crusaders of the Fourth Crusade had long memories in regard to the murder of their kinsman.

Always best to have the whole picture. But you at least got the rest right. The Byzantines were mortally wounded as a result. They fell totally about 250 years later. But the fact that two Christian forces were fighting at all just shows that the conflict had political and greed as a motivator as much as any religious one. The trade routes were what many had in mind.

[Go Green]

What you talking about was the Fourth Crusade and you really can't just give partial information. Part of the reason for the sack was political intrigue by some in Constantinople itself. Basically there was a power struggle going on and one side wanted to use the Crusading army to their benefit. Never a good idea. It was also revenge for murder of tens of thousands of "Latins" 20 years earlier in Constantinople itself. Most were killed along with their families. Survivors were sold to the Turks. Probably at least 50,000 Latins perished. Maybe more. Their property was looted and seized. The crusaders of the Fourth Crusade had long memories in regard to the murder of their kinsman.

Always best to have the whole picture. But you at least got the rest right. The Byzantines were mortally wounded as a result. They fell totally about 250 years later. But the fact that two Christian forces were fighting at all just shows that the conflict had political and greed as a motivator as much as any religious one. The trade routes were what many had in mind.

This makes me fired up for some more "Game of Thrones." :)

[AmsterBison]

What you talking about was the Fourth Crusade and you really can't just give partial information. Part of the reason for the sack was political intrigue by some in Constantinople itself. Basically there was a power struggle going on and one side wanted to use the Crusading army to their benefit. Never a good idea. It was also revenge for murder of tens of thousands of "Latins" 20 years earlier in Constantinople itself. Most were killed along with their families. Survivors were sold to the Turks. Probably at least 50,000 Latins perished. Maybe more. Their property was looted and seized. The crusaders of the Fourth Crusade had long memories in regard to the murder of their kinsman.

Always best to have the whole picture. But you at least got the rest right. The Byzantines were mortally wounded as a result. They fell totally about 250 years later. But the fact that two Christian forces were fighting at all just shows that the conflict had political and greed as a motivator as much as any religious one. The trade routes were what many had in mind.

Well, it would be impossible to list all the atrocities and betrayals committed during the Crusades in the form of a message board post. Clearly the Pope wasn't on the "Hey, it was OK to massacre and rape all those folks, murder their priests, vandalize their art and churches, and loot the place because, you know, they had a riot and killed a ton of Catholics" because he excommunicated the Crusaders. Heck, the Pope told the Crusaders explicitly not to attack any Christian states before they left - and, it turned out, that is the ONLY thing they did.

BTW, it's nice to see somebody else interested in the history of the Byzantine Empire, it's really fascinating stuff - the Crusades are interesting too, but they make for some depressing reading (unless you are reading completely fictionalized accounts, that is.) Anyway, I can definitely see the Catholic Church trying to put the Crusades behind them in order to make peace with the Eastern Orthodox church and to heal the Great Schism.

Doesn't change the fact the changing the mascot seems kind of stupid - unless they are thinking that without the Knight deal, they can use the alternate definition of Crusader.

[BEAR]

Well, it would be impossible to list all the atrocities and betrayals committed during the Crusades in the form of a message board post. Clearly the Pope wasn't on the "Hey, it was OK to massacre and rape all those folks, murder their priests, vandalize their art and churches, and loot the place because, you know, they had a riot and killed a ton of Catholics" because he excommunicated the Crusaders. Heck, the Pope told the Crusaders explicitly not to attack any Christian states before they left - and, it turned out, that is the ONLY thing they did.

BTW, it's nice to see somebody else interested in the history of the Byzantine Empire, it's really fascinating stuff - the Crusades are interesting too, but they make for some depressing reading (unless you are reading completely fictionalized accounts, that is.) Anyway, I can definitely see the Catholic Church trying to put the Crusades behind them in order to make peace with the Eastern Orthodox church and to heal the Great Schism.

Doesn't change the fact the changing the mascot seems kind of stupid - unless they are thinking that without the Knight deal, they can use the alternate definition of Crusader.

I've read where historians can't actually get a real number on the crusades. Lots of theories, very little actual solid proof. Sadly that won't matter to the school.

[ElCid]

Well, it would be impossible to list all the atrocities and betrayals committed during the Crusades in the form of a message board post. Clearly the Pope wasn't on the "Hey, it was OK to massacre and rape all those folks, murder their priests, vandalize their art and churches, and loot the place because, you know, they had a riot and killed a ton of Catholics" because he excommunicated the Crusaders. Heck, the Pope told the Crusaders explicitly not to attack any Christian states before they left - and, it turned out, that is the ONLY thing they did.

BTW, it's nice to see somebody else interested in the history of the Byzantine Empire, it's really fascinating stuff - the Crusades are interesting too, but they make for some depressing reading (unless you are reading completely fictionalized accounts, that is.) Anyway, I can definitely see the Catholic Church trying to put the Crusades behind them in order to make peace with the Eastern Orthodox church and to heal the Great Schism.

Doesn't change the fact the changing the mascot seems kind of stupid - unless they are thinking that without the Knight deal, they can use the alternate definition of Crusader.

Oh, I love medieval history. One of my favorite subjects. I study it now as a hobby. I have dozens of books in my library on it. Not to mention my 27th greatgrand father was a documented crusader in the 5th crusade. It is an interesting period. Generally, it wasn't as continually dark and barbarous as most think.

[The Boogie Down]

Well, it would be impossible to list all the atrocities and betrayals committed during the Crusades in the form of a message board post. Clearly the Pope wasn't on the "Hey, it was OK to massacre and rape all those folks, murder their priests, vandalize their art and churches, and loot the place because, you know, they had a riot and killed a ton of Catholics" because he excommunicated the Crusaders. Heck, the Pope told the Crusaders explicitly not to attack any Christian states before they left - and, it turned out, that is the ONLY thing they did.

BTW, it's nice to see somebody else interested in the history of the Byzantine Empire, it's really fascinating stuff - the Crusades are interesting too, but they make for some depressing reading (unless you are reading completely fictionalized accounts, that is.) Anyway, I can definitely see the Catholic Church trying to put the Crusades behind them in order to make peace with the Eastern Orthodox church and to heal the Great Schism.

Doesn't change the fact the changing the mascot seems kind of stupid - unless they are thinking that without the Knight deal, they can use the alternate definition of Crusader.

Good points throughout. Let's not forget that one of the "good" Crusades (the third one) starts with England attacking the Kingdom of Sicily. Despite having a large Orthodox minority (large Muslim and Jewish ones too), Palermo answered the Pope's call and served as host to the different Christian kingdoms and was later held ransom by those same Northern foreigners for their efforts. Oh and, ahem-ahem, let's also not forget that the very first murder victims of the Crusades were not Middle Eastern Muslims, but instead, Jews living in the Rhineland.

(Still against the logo change tho)

[AmsterBison]

Oh, I love medieval history. One of my favorite subjects. I study it now as a hobby. I have dozens of books in my library on it. Not to mention my 27th greatgrand father was a documented crusader in the 5th crusade. It is an interesting period. Generally, it wasn't as continually dark and barbarous as most think.

You are undoubtedly much more informed than me on the subject since I've only read a couple books, like God's War by Tyerman (a bit of a slog in spots) and some books by Runciman. This thread makes me think that maybe I should revisit the area.

What books about the Crusades do you like, if it's not impertinent to ask?

[ngineer]

I am confused over the use of the Knight. Are they going to ban their chess club too? While I understand the connotation of the word "Crusaders" due to the evils 700 years ago, there have been other "crusades" that have been positive. HC has got to get a pair. Why not change the name of the school to Camelot College, obviously, their new alma mater: "The rain may only fall after sundown, by 8 a.m. the morning fog has flown...."