2018 Ivy League/Pioneer Football League Offseason Thread

[bonarae]

Rather than having my brethren create separate threads regarding updates to these two (not-so-)similar leagues in the off-season, I am hoping that this thread will become the place to discuss about the non-scholarship FCS leagues in the offseason.

Better late than never... xcoffeex

My questions:
1. Will all eight Ivies tend to schedule PFL teams as their ALL three available OOC games in the future?
2. Can the PL adjust to this reality present with the Ivies regarding the latter's scheduling? Will we see more money (FBS) and more unusual (read: NDSU, Montana) games with PL teams in the future?

[Son of Eli]

Other than San Diego I don't want to see Ivy-Pioneer match-ups. Ideally I prefer two Patriot and one CAA opponent for the three Ivy League OOC opponents. On the other hand, I would like to see a new Gridiron Bowl established between the Ivy Champion and the Pioneer League Champion.

[RichH2]

As time has passed I think the dread of a schollie PL has faded. Dont know whether the ongoing lessening of our games will start to turn around. I do believe it will as Ivy choices are as limited as the PL in the Northeast. A steady diet of PFL will IMO serve only to further diminish ypur fanbase.

[Son of Eli]

As time has passed I think the dread of a schollie PL has faded. Dont know whether the ongoing lessening of our games will start to turn around. I do believe it will as Ivy choices are as limited as the PL in the Northeast. A steady diet of PFL will IMO serve only to further diminish ypur fanbase.


Agreed. The Patriot League presents much stronger competition than the Pioneer and is more aligned academically with the Ivies. Plus they are historic rivals.

[Cooper]

I haven't yet spoken with an Ivy League fan who likes the Pioneer games, again with the exception of San Diego, which is a great trip. Two Patriot and one CAA is the perfect recipe.

[dgtw]

I would love to see Jax State play Harvard, Yale, or Princeton.


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[Son of Eli]

I would love to see Jax State play Harvard, Yale, or Princeton.


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I'd like to see you that too. The Ivy Coaches want FCS playoff participation, but are blocked by the presidents. One way around that is to schedule perennial FCS playoff teams in the regular season. Jacksonville St fits the bill. They also draw well and are located in a recruiting hot bed, which are more pluses. That game would make a lot more sense than Yale-Dayton. Another good one along those lines that I'd like to see is Yale-Sam Houston St.

[Model Citizen]

I don't see further growth in Ivy-Pioneer scheduling anytime soon.

A bowl game between the two leagues remains the best postseason option for the Ivy. Maybe some day.

[Model Citizen]

Princeton plays at Butler this year. The Ivies are still allergic to the Central Time Zone.

[bonarae]

AFAIK, only Yale has been resistant to the scheduling epidemic of the other 7 Ivies by scheduling far-out opponents (in the Ivies' eyes). Let's hope that coaching and even Presidential changes will force the other seven to follow Yale's lead.

[cx500d]

Princeton plays at Butler this year. The Ivies are still allergic to the Central Time Zone.

Oh, we have butler in 2019 I think


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[Son of Eli]

AFAIK, only Yale has been resistant to the scheduling epidemic of the other 7 Ivies by scheduling far-out opponents (in the Ivies' eyes). Let's hope that coaching and even Presidential changes will force the other seven to follow Yale's lead.

There's even some talk of Yale playing Georgia in 2029 to mark the 100th anniversary of Sanford Stadium which opened in 1929 with Georgia vs Yale. The history of the rivalry and the prospects of a rematch are covered in this recently aired Connecticut Public Television documentary "Bulldog vs Bulldog"

https://cptv.org/bulldog-vs-bulldog-on-cptv-spirit-and-cptv-explores-a-college-football-rivalry/

[TheValleyRaider]

There's even some talk of Yale playing Georgia in 2029 to mark the 100th anniversary of Sanford Stadium which opened in 1929 with Georgia vs Yale. The history of the rivalry and the prospects of a rematch are covered in this recently aired Connecticut Public Television documentary "Bulldog vs Bulldog"

https://cptv.org/bulldog-vs-bulldog-on-cptv-spirit-and-cptv-explores-a-college-football-rivalry/

Wouldn't mind seeing Eli repeat it's performance from the Yale Bowl anniversary against Army ;) (if this game comes to pass, of course)

[The Boogie Down]

Wouldn't mind seeing Eli repeat it's performance from the Yale Bowl anniversary against Army ;) (if this game comes to pass, of course)

+1! Wouldn't mind seeing Princeton-Rutgers happen either.

[Go Green]

I haven't yet spoken with an Ivy League fan who likes the Pioneer games.

Brown probably likes them the least.

http://www.espn.com/college-football/game?gameId=400952305

http://www.espn.com/college-football/game?gameId=400871290

[Go Green]

1. Will all eight Ivies tend to schedule PFL teams as their ALL three available OOC games in the future?


Which Ivies have even scheduled two PFL teams in one season?

[Go Green]

Other than San Diego I don't want to see Ivy-Patriot match-ups. Ideally I prefer two Patriot and one CAA opponent for the three Ivy League OOC opponents. On the other hand, I would like to see a new Gridiron Bowl established between the Ivy Champion and the Pioneer League Champion.

I assume you meant PFL.

Yale was the one who started that Ivy-PFL pipeline, by the way.

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/17/sports/college-football-yale-is-first-team-to-reach-800-victories.html

[Go Green]

AFAIK, only Yale has been resistant to the scheduling epidemic of the other 7 Ivies by scheduling far-out opponents (in the Ivies' eyes).

YMMV, but Yale did agree to a series with Mercer. That should be a good one.

http://mercerbears.com/news/2016/8/11/mercer-and-yale-ink-four-game-football-series-beginning-in-2018.aspx?path=football

[Model Citizen]

Which Ivies have even scheduled two PFL teams in one season?

Princeton (2014) is the only one that comes to mind.

[Model Citizen]

Yale was the one who started that Ivy-PFL pipeline, by the way.

Yale it was. 1997 v. Valparaiso, at Soldier Field.

Getting back to my comment on the Ivies not playing in the Central Time Zone, that's one of only two games I can recall in which an Ivy ventured into the midlands. The other was '86 (?), Princeton at Northwestern. Maybe there was another in the leather helmet era...

[DFW HOYA]

Yale it was. 1997 v. Valparaiso, at Soldier Field.

Getting back to my comment on the Ivies not playing in the Central Time Zone, that's one of only two games I can recall in which an Ivy ventured into the midlands. The other was '86 (?), Princeton at Northwestern. Maybe there was another in the leather helmet era...

The Ivies are not comfortable in red states. Coincidence, perhaps.

[Go Green]

Getting back to my comment on the Ivies not playing in the Central Time Zone, that's one of only two games I can recall in which an Ivy ventured into the midlands. The other was '86 (?), Princeton at Northwestern. Maybe there was another in the leather helmet era...

Dartmouth played at Butler in a competitive game to open the 2013 season.

[Go Green]

Princeton (2014) is the only one that comes to mind.

Looks like you're correct about Princeton. I think at the time those games were scheduled, Princeton was trying to pull itself out of a historically bad run. So I'll give them a mulligan there.

In any event, that 2014 Princeton season should be remembered for the Princeton captain's repeatedly declaring that anything less than an undefeated season would be "unacceptable"... and then going out to lead the Tigers to a 5-5 campaign (including 1-1 against the PFL).

:)

[Model Citizen]

I'm hanging onto the Central time thing, GG. Indy is on Eastern time...about nine hours' drive from Washington. ;)

[Go Green]

I'm hanging onto the Central time thing, GG. Indy is on Eastern time...about nine hours' drive from Washington. ;)

Is that right? Ok, my bad.

:)

[Model Citizen]

...whereas Valparaiso, Indiana is on Central time...colloquially known as "Chicago Time."

[bulldog10jw]

Yale it was. 1997 v. Valparaiso, at Soldier Field.

Getting back to my comment on the Ivies not playing in the Central Time Zone, that's one of only two games I can recall in which an Ivy ventured into the midlands. The other was '86 (?), Princeton at Northwestern. Maybe there was another in the leather helmet era...

Yale played at Wisconsin in the 40's, I believe. A little after leather helmets, but maybe before facemasks

[Son of Eli]

I assume you meant PFL.

Yale was the one who started that Ivy-PFL pipeline, by the way.

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/09/17/sports/college-football-yale-is-first-team-to-reach-800-victories.html


Yes, I meant Pioneer. Thank you for the correction. Four of those games were against San Diego, which I have no problem with. The next best Patriot opponent is Dayton, and that was two more. The other two games Yale played were against Valparaiso, which in retrospect was good as it was the only team a very bad Yale team beat in 1997. That was then and this is now. No more Pioneer Teams for Yale I hope, unless it's San Diego.

[Son of Eli]

Yale it was. 1997 v. Valparaiso, at Soldier Field.

Getting back to my comment on the Ivies not playing in the Central Time Zone, that's one of only two games I can recall in which an Ivy ventured into the midlands. The other was '86 (?), Princeton at Northwestern. Maybe there was another in the leather helmet era...


That 1997 Yale-Valpraiso game was played at Soldier Field, which made it possible.

[Son of Eli]

Yale played at Wisconsin in the 40's, I believe. A little after leather helmets, but maybe before facemasks


1948. And Yale beat Wisconsin!

[Son of Eli]

Dartmouth played at Butler in a competitive game to open the 2013 season.


That was an unusually strong Butler team. They were champions that year. Usually they can't compete with most teams in the Ivy League. According to Massey the only Ivy team that would have lost to Butler last year was Brown, and they were winless in the Ivy League.

[Go Green]

That was an unusually strong Butler team. They were champions that year. Usually they can't compete with most teams in the Ivy League..

"Can't compete" is probably too strong. PFL teams have beaten Princeton, Penn and Brown in recent years (Yale a little further back). I'm sure more than a few of them would have beaten Cornell and Columbia in this decade if they were on the schedule.

Sure, the Ivy would be expected to win most games against the PFL. Just like the CAA would be expected to win most games against the Ivy. But in both instances, the "underdog" can get the better of the "favored" team in the right circumstances. That's why we play the games.

While I wouldn't be a fan of anyone scheduling all three of its OOC games against the PFL, I'm totally fine with a game a year. Its fun for the Ivy to get out of the NE every now and then.

[Son of Eli]

"Can't compete" is probably too strong. PFL teams have beaten Princeton, Penn and Brown in recent years (Yale a little further back). I'm sure more than a few of them would have beaten Cornell and Columbia in this decade if they were on the schedule.

Sure, the Ivy would be expected to win most games against the PFL. Just like the CAA would be expected to win most games against the Ivy. But in both instances, the "underdog" can get the better of the "favored" team in the right circumstances. That's why we play the games.

While I wouldn't be a fan of anyone scheduling all three of its OOC games against the PFL, I'm totally fine with a game a year. Its fun for the Ivy to get out of the NE every now and then.


The Jacksonville team that "beat" Penn was illegally giving athletic scholarships at the time, if I have my timeline right. Then Jacksonville cancelled the return trip to Penn. That forced Penn to schedule a Division II team, which ironically was rated higher by Massy than Jacksonville.

Princeton and Yale lost only to San Diego, which is the outlier of the Pioneer League, just like recent Brown teams have been the outlier in the Ivy League at the other end of the spectrum.

[Son of Eli]

While I wouldn't be a fan of anyone scheduling all three of its OOC games against the PFL, I'm totally fine with a game a year. Its fun for the Ivy to get out of the NE every now and then.


The Pioneer League has the second worst attendance in Division I averaging just 3304 fans a game. Only the NEC is lower which is why I don't want to schedule them either. I don't consider playing in front of 3000 fans or less fun. The Ivy League should look to schedule teams that average a minimum of 5,000 a game. The CAA, Patriot and Southern Conference meet that standard.

[Model Citizen]

That was an unusually strong Butler team. They were champions that year. Usually they can't compete with most teams in the Ivy League. According to Massey the only Ivy team that would have lost to Butler last year was Brown, and they were winless in the Ivy League.

Officially, they were co-champions with Marist. Unofficially, they finished behind San Diego.

Not sure why attendance in Poughkeepsie or DeLand, Fla for non-Ivy games has any bearing on Yale's scheduling. In fact, I'm pretty sure it does not.

[Son of Eli]

Officially, they were co-champions with Marist. Unofficially, they finished behind San Diego.

Not sure why attendance in Poughkeepsie or DeLand, Fla for non-Ivy games has any bearing on Yale's scheduling. In fact, I'm pretty sure it does not.


Playing games in front of 2000 people is not a good image for recruits.

[Model Citizen]

Playing games in front of 2000 people is not a good image for recruits.

I was not aware that an Ivy League team ever played for such a small crowd.

[Go Green]

I was not aware that an Ivy League team ever played for such a small crowd.

1,600 at Stetson v. Brown.

https://www.gohatters.com/boxscore.aspx?id=5302&path=football

Of course, the fact that the Ivy team actually LOST the game should be of more concern regarding recruiting than the crowd. :)

FWIW, the Stetson v. Dartmouth game did better, drawing 2,400. Maybe Dartmouth is more popular than Brown down in Florida.

[Model Citizen]

Wow. I'm speechless.

[Model Citizen]

Ok, not totally speechless.

Stetson's attendance is embarrassing, but not representative of what most PFL teams would draw at home v. an Ivy League opponent.

I notice that Dartmouth has a total of 17 players from Minnesota, Missouri, and Illinois. And they have about 7 from Florida. If recruiting image is important, maybe the Big Green should be playing Drake instead of Stetson.

[DFW HOYA]

The Ivy League should look to schedule teams that average a minimum of 5,000 a game. The CAA, Patriot and Southern Conference meet that standard.

Three Patriot schools that do not meet this standard: Colgate (4,787), Bucknell (2,886), and Georgetown (2,166).

[Son of Eli]

Three Patriot schools that do not meet this standard: Colgate (4,787), Bucknell (2,886), and Georgetown (2,166).

And it's no coincidence that none of these teams are on Yale's future schedules, although Colgate is close enough in my book considering the historical rivalry they have with Yale.

[Son of Eli]

1,600 at Stetson v. Brown.

https://www.gohatters.com/boxscore.aspx?id=5302&path=football

Of course, the fact that the Ivy team actually LOST the game should be of more concern regarding recruiting than the crowd. :)

FWIW, the Stetson v. Dartmouth game did better, drawing 2,400. Maybe Dartmouth is more popular than Brown down in Florida.

Many Division III teams draw better than Stetson.

[Son of Eli]

Three Patriot schools that do not meet this standard: Colgate (4,787), Bucknell (2,886), and Georgetown (2,166).


The latest NCAA attendance report is from 2016. It lists Colgate's average as 6,080.

[DFW HOYA]

The latest NCAA attendance report is from 2016. It lists Colgate's average as 6,080.

2017 Colgate attendance: http://gocolgateraiders.com/cumestats.aspx?path=football#game

[Go Green]

And it's no coincidence that none of these teams are on Yale's future schedules, although Colgate is close enough in my book considering the historical rivalry they have with Yale.

Georgetown drew 12K at the Bowl last time they visited New Haven in 2011.

Lehigh drew 2K last season at the Bowl.

http://www.yalebulldogs.com/sports/m-footbl/2016-17/boxscores/20161001_gbqw.xml

[The Boogie Down]

Georgetown drew 12K at the Bowl last time they visited New Haven in 2011.

Lehigh drew 2K last season at the Bowl.

http://www.yalebulldogs.com/sports/m-footbl/2016-17/boxscores/20161001_gbqw.xml


Without looking it up, this could have something to do w/homecoming skewing the numbers.

Since Fordham moved up to I-AA/FCS I've noticed that their yearly attendance attendance average (in terms of mean) has often been slightly less than Columbia's. But that's because while Columbia usually draws Pioneer League type numbers for most home games, they also often get 10,000+ to homecoming. So usually Columbia's median number is lower than Fordham's even if they also usually have the slightly higher mean.

That said Columbia drew well throughout 2017 and Fordham not so much.

[The Boogie Down]

Three Patriot schools that do not meet this standard: Colgate (4,787), Bucknell (2,886), and Georgetown (2,166).

For the type of on field success Colgate has enjoyed over the decades, I can't ever understand how they're always outdrawn by Holy Cross, Lafayette and, at times, Fordham too. Never mind always being dwarfed by Lehigh crowds.

[Go Green]

Without looking it up, this could have something to do w/homecoming skewing the numbers.

Since Fordham moved up to I-AA/FCS I've noticed that their yearly attendance attendance average (in terms of mean) has often been slightly less than Columbia's. But that's because while Columbia usually draws Pioneer League type numbers for most home games, they also often get 10,000+ to homecoming. So usually Columbia's median number is lower than Fordham's even if they also usually have the slightly higher mean.

That said Columbia drew well throughout 2017 and Fordham not so much.

Not sure about the Georgetown game, but (as I suspected), LFN had some thoughts about the pathetic crowd at the Y-L game in 2016 (with a photo).

https://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2016/10/lehigh-63-yale-35-postgame-thoughts.html

So I think Yale should be careful about throwing stones...

[Son of Eli]

Not sure about the Georgetown game, but (as I suspected), LFN had some thoughts about the pathetic crowd at the Y-L game in 2016 (with a photo).

https://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2016/10/lehigh-63-yale-35-postgame-thoughts.html

So I think Yale should be careful about throwing stones...


The way Yale was playing at that point in the season they were lucky to draw 2000 for that game. Still, Yale is a leader in attendance at the FCS level. Yale will average close to 19,000 a game for 2017. Even if one omits the Harvard game's 51,000+ draw Yale still averaged 10,818. To equate Yale's attendance with a Pioneer team's attendance is absurd.

[DetroitFlyer]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/alabama-loses-recruiting-battle-to-princeton-as-four-star-qb-sticks-with-tigers/amp/#ampshare=https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/alabama-loses-recruiting-battle-to-princeton-as-four-star-qb-sticks-with-tigers/

It is possible that the IL has a slight recruiting advantage over the PFL....

[Model Citizen]

There are some people USD can't buy.

[UNHWildcat18]

Ivy League joining the playoffs this year?

[Go Green]

Bring on the SEC!!

https://www.si.com/college-football/2018/02/06/brevin-white-recruitment-signing-day-princeton-alabama

[Son of Eli]

Bring on the SEC!!

https://www.si.com/college-football/2018/02/06/brevin-white-recruitment-signing-day-princeton-alabama


Hopefully, this is the start of a new trend. 5 years ago Yale got their first 3 star recruit ever ( to my knowledge) in Victor Egu. Now three star recruits are common at Yale and throughout the Ivy League. Maybe White will turn out to be the first of many 4 star recruits in the Ivy League.

[Son of Eli]

Bring on the SEC!!

https://www.si.com/college-football/2018/02/06/brevin-white-recruitment-signing-day-princeton-alabama


Should be bring on Rutgers. What a missed opportunity, especially now that Princeton would have been led by a 4 star QB in a 2019 game. Now Princeton fans can look forward to that exciting 2019 match-up with Butler instead.

[Go Green]

Bring on the SEC!!

https://www.si.com/college-football/2018/02/06/brevin-white-recruitment-signing-day-princeton-alabama

The SEC strikes back!

https://www.anchorofgold.com/2018/2/7/16984642/vanderbilt-raids-all-ivy-league-team-again-to-add-penn-dl-louis-vecchio-as-graduate-transfer

[Go Green]

Now Princeton fans can look forward to that exciting 2019 match-up with Butler instead.

And, well, you know... this: http://www.dartmouthsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=211540691

[Son of Eli]

The SEC strikes back!

https://www.anchorofgold.com/2018/2/7/16984642/vanderbilt-raids-all-ivy-league-team-again-to-add-penn-dl-louis-vecchio-as-graduate-transfer

The Ivy League rule disallowing graduate players should be rescinded. Having said that it will be interesting to see how Vecchio does in the SEC. I expect that he will do quite well. We already saw the former Columbia punter perform very well for Georgia last year.

[bulldog10jw]

And, well, you know... this: http://www.dartmouthsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?ATCLID=211540691

Why?

[Go Green]

The Ivy League rule disallowing graduate players should be rescinded..

If there was ever a point to that rule, I'm not aware of it.

My best guess is that the Ivy decided that graduate school was not a time for effing around with sports. Oh well.

That being said, Vecchio could have continued at Penn (he had a medical redshirt year available) and pursued a double major. For whatever reason, he wasn't interested.