Credit to Kennesaw State

[katss07]

First of all, I would like to say that Kennesaw played one hell of a game this evening in a hostile atmosphere. Over came many issues and was able to hang with a great SHSU team. Could have easily won that game, so hats off to you guys.

Every single Owl supporter I met today was nothing but respectful and kind. Some fan bases don’t bring that. The KSU guys were great. The large turnover plank was great (although I was pissed to see the real one) and the KSUOwls people were great. Really added to the best atmosphere that has been at Bowers since the 2011 Montana game. This was a huge game for the Kats and Owls and it was right for it to end in such fun fashion.

Regardless of the outcome, incredible game. Owl fans, you guys deserved to be here and will be back. No doubt! I’m using this as an opportunity to say thanks and that you guys deserve all the credit in the world. For a third year program, that is a great football team. I can only imagine what the program will look like in five years. Once again, hats off to OwlNation.

[Daytripper]

First of all, I would like to say that Kennesaw played one hell of a game this evening in a hostile atmosphere. Over came many issues and was able to hang with a great SHSU team. Could have easily won that game, so hats off to you guys.

Every single Owl supporter I met today was nothing but respectful and kind. Some fan bases don’t bring that. The KSU guys were great. The large turnover plank was great (although I was pissed to see the real one) and the KSUOwls people were great. Really added to the best atmosphere that has been at Bowers since the 2011 Montana game. This was a huge game for the Kats and Owls and it was right for it to end in such fun fashion.

Regardless of the outcome, incredible game. Owl fans, you guys deserved to be here and will be back. No doubt! I’m using this as an opportunity to say thanks and that you guys deserve all the credit in the world. For a third year program, that is a great football team. I can only imagine what the program will look like in five years. Once again, hats off to OwlNation.

Agree. Tough, disciplined team. KSU will be around. But, as somebody mentioned on another thread, with their enrollment and early success I'm not sure they should stick with the triple option offense. They can get the talent to be more balanced.

[WeAreThePride]

Well said. I'll be pulling for KSU from here out.

[PaladinFan]

Agree. Tough, disciplined team. KSU will be around. But, as somebody mentioned on another thread, with their enrollment and early success I'm not sure they should stick with the triple option offense. They can get the talent to be more balanced.

Bohannon was a Paul Johnson assistant at Georgia Southern, Navy, and Tech. That’s their offense. I imagine to change the offense you’ll change the coach, which seems like a bad idea.

In the Deep South, with the oversautration of D1 programs, running the option and looking for market inefficiencies in recruiting makes sense to me.

[POD Knows]

They showed a lot of heart, I had kind of written them off in the first half but they never gave up and really, should have took that game into OT.

[TennBison]

Agree. Tough, disciplined team. KSU will be around. But, as somebody mentioned on another thread, with their enrollment and early success I'm not sure they should stick with the triple option offense. They can get the talent to be more balanced.
Enrollment has nothing to do with how good a college team is. This is not like high school where kids from one town are required to go to a school just because they live in a district. A school with 7,000 students can recruit the same kids that a school with 30,000 can. Just be cause they have 30k students, it does not mean they have a better team or are more able to run a different kind of offense.

[TennBison]

Congrats to KSU. You did much better than I thought you would for a third year program.

[TennBison]

Bohannon was a Paul Johnson assistant at Georgia Southern, Navy, and Tech. That’s their offense. I imagine to change the offense you’ll change the coach, which seems like a bad idea.

In the Deep South, with the oversaturation of D1 programs, running the option and looking for market inefficiencies in recruiting makes sense to me.
That is perceived to be the problem, to much competition from other schools. But I don't feel that is the case as often as it is claimed to be. Down in the deep south and other areas like Texas, football is king. There is more football going on down there than anyplace else in the country. Maybe there are 20 colleges that are in the elite level that you will never be able to compete with. That would be the Alabamas, Georgia, LSU, Clemson, Fla & Fla St, Texas, Tex A&M,Ole Miss and such. Then you have those second tier FBS schools that you can go up against Vanderbilt, NC St, SC St, Tenn, Fla Atlantic, Fla central, and then all the other F CS schools. It is a tough road to hoe, but it can be done. NDSU prides itself on picking up talent that FBS schools missed and out recruiting other FCS schools. And in some cases winning recruits from bigger FBS schools on the premise that kids are going to start sooner and get a better education and experience at NDSU. Hidden talent is out there NDSU is proof it can be found and cultivated. And if you school and football program are good enough, students will pass on some FBS programs to play in your program. It can be done.
That being said, the TO is a graveyard for offensive players who might want to have a good shot at the pros. No position in the TO is a hotbed for talent. Sure, a few players here or there do make it. But that style of offense is largely overlooked by the NFL. And once you start becoming a more steady program you need to make a choice of either staying with a Option offense or switching to a offense that might attract players who want to go on to the NFL or have a shot at it.

[ElCid]

I get a kick out of all those who talk about the triple option like it is not a worthy offense. News flash, it is an equalizer against much better teams, but you need to have good execution. it is how we beat S Carolina a couple years ago, not to mention beating them in 1990 and Arkansas back in 92. It is how Wofford kept it close with SC this year and also the last few years. It is how Georgia Southern won their National Championships. I will use Navy and Ga Tech as examples as well. They keep close with some of the best FBS teams out there while running the option. Sometimes it just doesn't work out like Wofford yesterday against NDSU, turnovers will kill you. Run it well, and nobody can stop it every time. Unfortunately for them, Wofford did not run it well yesterday. Doesn't matter the type of game as well in regard to scoring. Back in 2013 we ran it well against Old Dominion, in a shootout (59-58), we scored fast and often with many long drives under 2 minutes. We only completed 5 passes in that game. We came back against Samford last year being down 10 with 6 minutes remaining to tie and eventually win. And despite being down to Samford this year by 35 (ouch), we actually could have come back from that. We really did not have the OLine for it though and out drives stalled, many deep. And not to be Capt Obvious, but the offensive line is the keystone to the whole thing....an EXPERIENCED O-line. Doesn't have to be a huge line either, they are not intended to be mountains protecting the QB. They simply need to get their assigned blocks done effectively. They need to be fast and not clog up the lanes themselves. If I was to guess about their optimal size, I would say 270-290 was perfect, depending on the individual, and everything else being equal.

Like I said, run it well and it can be an "equalizer," but have a decent passing game as well, and that is when you can do some guaranteed serious damage with it, but it is not always necessary. People who do not watch it often simply do not see its effectiveness. Plus it is a thing of beauty when you execute it well. Kennesaw passes quite a bit more than we do. Wofford passes a bit more as well, at least this year. I think Cal Poly passes a bit more as well. And with our senior starter graduating this year, our #2 is bit better of a passer so we might see more passing next year. But this whole thing about "having" to be balanced in order to win is load of crap. Every time an option team has a bad game or season, all the "balanced experts" come out and state that it is a must. I would love to find the boxscores for Ga Sos NCs to see what they did. When we beat SC in 15, we completed 2 passes all game. When we beat a top 10 UTC last year, who had one of the best defenses in FCS, we completed 1 pass. We have many examples like this like I am sure many options teams have.

Off my soap box. Good job KSU, you earned your FCS spurs.

[TennBison]

I get a kick out of all those who talk about the triple option like it is not a worthy offense. News flash, it is an equalizer against much better teams, but you need to have good execution. it is how we beat S Carolina a couple years ago, not to mention beating them in 1990 and Arkansas back in 92. It is how Wofford kept it close with SC this year and also the last few years. It is how Georgia Southern won their National Championships. I will use Navy and Ga Tech as examples as well. They keep close with some of the best FBS teams out there while running the option. Sometimes it just doesn't work out like Wofford yesterday against NDSU, turnovers will kill you. Run it well, and nobody can stop it every time. Unfortunately for them, Wofford did not run it well yesterday. Doesn't matter the type of game as well in regard to scoring. Back in 2013 we ran it well against Old Dominion, in a shootout (59-58), we scored fast and often with many long drives under 2 minutes. We only completed 5 passes in that game. We came back against Samford last year being down 10 with 6 minutes remaining to tie and eventually win. And despite being down to Samford this year by 35 (ouch), we actually could have come back from that. We really did not have the OLine for it though and out drives stalled, many deep. And not to be Capt Obvious, but the offensive line is the keystone to the whole thing....an EXPERIENCED O-line. Doesn't have to be a huge line either, they are not intended to be mountains protecting the QB. They simply need to get their assigned blocks done effectively. They need to be fast and not clog up the lanes themselves. If I was to guess about their optimal size, I would say 270-290 was perfect, depending on the individual, and everything else being equal.

Like I said, run it well and it can be an "equalizer," but have a decent passing game as well, and that is when you can do some guaranteed serious damage with it, but it is not always necessary. People who do not watch it often simply do not see its effectiveness. Plus it is a thing of beauty when you execute it well. Kennesaw passes quite a bit more than we do. Wofford passes a bit more as well, at least this year. I think Cal Poly passes a bit more as well. And with our senior starter graduating this year, our #2 is bit better of a passer so we might see more passing next year. But this whole thing about "having" to be balanced in order to win is load of crap. Every time an option team has a bad game or season, all the "balanced experts" come out and state that it is a must. I would love to find the boxscores for Ga Sos NCs to see what they did. When we beat SC in 15, we completed 2 passes all game. When we beat a top 10 UTC last year, who had one of the best defenses in FCS, we completed 1 pass. We have many examples like this like I am sure many options teams have.

Off my soap box. Good job KSU, you earned your FCS spurs.
One word answer here:
Q) If it is such a good offense, how many NFL teams run it?
A) None

[CID1990]

SHSU did the one thing they had to do to beat KSU: get ahead big, early. Making a TO team play from two scores down is how you beat them, every time

Here endeth the lesson

[PJManley]

For 3 years in it was a hell of an accomplishment

[ElCid]

That is perceived to be the problem, to much competition from other schools. But I don't feel that is the case as often as it is claimed to be. Down in the deep south and other areas like Texas, football is king. There is more football going on down there than anyplace else in the country. Maybe there are 20 colleges that are in the elite level that you will never be able to compete with. That would be the Alabamas, Georgia, LSU, Clemson, Fla & Fla St, Texas, Tex A&M,Ole Miss and such. Then you have those second tier FBS schools that you can go up against Vanderbilt, NC St, SC St, Tenn, Fla Atlantic, Fla central, and then all the other F CS schools. It is a tough road to hoe, but it can be done. NDSU prides itself on picking up talent that FBS schools missed and out recruiting other FCS schools. And in some cases winning recruits from bigger FBS schools on the premise that kids are going to start sooner and get a better education and experience at NDSU. Hidden talent is out there NDSU is proof it can be found and cultivated. And if you school and football program are good enough, students will pass on some FBS programs to play in your program. It can be done.

That being said, the TO is a graveyard for offensive players who might want to have a good shot at the pros. No position in the TO is a hotbed for talent. Sure, a few players here or there do make it. But that style of offense is largely overlooked by the NFL. And once you start becoming a more steady program you need to make a choice of either staying with a Option offense or switching to a offense that might attract players who want to go on to the NFL or have a shot at it.

This is a good point, but hard to measure. We all know that the high ranking of players out of HS sometimes pays off and sometimes doesn't. How many highly touted players have flopped. I'm just saying its a crap shoot, but it might hurt in a case or two where a player, who is actually pretty good, might shy away from an option team. Then again, we almost had our FB from last year get signed up by Atlanta. He lasted until the final cut. He was not a highly recruited player out of HS. You never know, like you mention about NDSU finding the overlooked jewel. But you may have a point, on average, about some player's outlook on option programs.

[ElCid]

One word answer here:
Q) If it is such a good offense, how many NFL teams run it?
A) None

Apples and oranges.

[TennBison]

I get a kick out of all those who talk about the triple option like it is not a worthy offense. News flash, it is an equalizer against much better teams, but you need to have good execution. it is how we beat S Carolina a couple years ago, not to mention beating them in 1990 and Arkansas back in 92. It is how Wofford kept it close with SC this year and also the last few years. It is how Georgia Southern won their National Championships. I will use Navy and Ga Tech as examples as well. They keep close with some of the best FBS teams out there while running the option. Sometimes it just doesn't work out like Wofford yesterday against NDSU, turnovers will kill you. Run it well, and nobody can stop it every time. Unfortunately for them, Wofford did not run it well yesterday. Doesn't matter the type of game as well in regard to scoring. Back in 2013 we ran it well against Old Dominion, in a shootout (59-58), we scored fast and often with many long drives under 2 minutes. We only completed 5 passes in that game. We came back against Samford last year being down 10 with 6 minutes remaining to tie and eventually win. And despite being down to Samford this year by 35 (ouch), we actually could have come back from that. We really did not have the OLine for it though and out drives stalled, many deep. And not to be Capt Obvious, but the offensive line is the keystone to the whole thing....an EXPERIENCED O-line. Doesn't have to be a huge line either, they are not intended to be mountains protecting the QB. They simply need to get their assigned blocks done effectively. They need to be fast and not clog up the lanes themselves. If I was to guess about their optimal size, I would say 270-290 was perfect, depending on the individual, and everything else being equal.

Like I said, run it well and it can be an "equalizer," but have a decent passing game as well, and that is when you can do some guaranteed serious damage with it, but it is not always necessary. People who do not watch it often simply do not see its effectiveness. Plus it is a thing of beauty when you execute it well. Kennesaw passes quite a bit more than we do. Wofford passes a bit more as well, at least this year. I think Cal Poly passes a bit more as well. And with our senior starter graduating this year, our #2 is bit better of a passer so we might see more passing next year. But this whole thing about "having" to be balanced in order to win is load of crap. Every time an option team has a bad game or season, all the "balanced experts" come out and state that it is a must. I would love to find the boxscores for Ga Sos NCs to see what they did. When we beat SC in 15, we completed 2 passes all game. When we beat a top 10 UTC last year, who had one of the best defenses in FCS, we completed 1 pass. We have many examples like this like I am sure many options teams have.

Off my soap box. Good job KSU, you earned your FCS spurs.
Did you ever think that NDSU just outright outplayed Wofford and made it so that they could not run it well. How about Wofford came in and did a great job, they were ready, they did it right, but NDSU was just better prepared and forced all those mistakes. Those Wofford fumbles didn't just pop out of the runners hands on their own, a NDSU football player caused them. Those FBS schools you are usings as an example.........really, they were not very good and for the most part are not even a factor in the FBS. True, the TO is a odd offense, and most teams only struggle against it defensively because they don't see it or know how to coach against it or they don't have the talent on defense.

[Serpentor]

Did you ever think that NDSU just outright outplayed Wofford and made it so that they could not run it well. How about Wofford came in and did a great job, they were ready, they did it right, but NDSU was just better prepared and forced all those mistakes. Those Wofford fumbles didn't just pop out of the runners hands on their own, a NDSU football player caused them. Those FBS schools you are usings as an example.........really, they were not very good and for the most part are not even a factor in the FBS. True, the TO is a odd offense, and most teams only struggle against it defensively because they don't see it or know how to coach against it or they don't have the talent on defense.

I don't understand, there were 10 Waffle Houses in the Spartanburg community. Surely they should have triumphed!

[ElCid]

Did you ever think that NDSU just outright outplayed Wofford and made it so that they could not run it well. How about Wofford came in and did a great job, they were ready, they did it right, but NDSU was just better prepared and forced all those mistakes. Those Wofford fumbles didn't just pop out of the runners hands on their own, a NDSU football player caused them. Those FBS schools you are usings as an example.........really, they were not very good and for the most part are not even a factor in the FBS. True, the TO is a odd offense, and most teams only struggle against it defensively because they don't see it or know how to coach against it or they don't have the talent on defense.

Of course they outplayed them yesterday, I never said they didn't. But to get to yesterday, I have seen Wofford play, many times this year, and they were off. Doesn't nullify the Triple Option. You obviously missed my point about the TO and the examples I used, including the FBS ones.

[TennBison]

Apples and oranges.
Feel free to educate us then. Because if anything in football works, the NFL is going to use it. It is a high risk offense, to much room for mistakes and to many QBs have a history of getting hurt (at any level). The majority of schools that run it do so because of talent reasons, they can't get the right OL players and receivers. So they look for guys who are undersized who can be faster and don't really need to block super well but just need to push a little and get in the way, and receivers who usually are not fast speed burners but they can be big and block downfield. Look at the KSU game last night, did you see their OL pushing SHSU defense around? No. For the most part all they did was get in the way, and look how bad the KSU OL was in pass plays, SHSU front 7 were all over that QB.

[TennBison]

Ok, if the TO is such a great offense, when is the last time a high level team used it and won a title. FBS- I can't even think of one without going back to the beginning of time. FCS- you have to go back to the glory days of Georgia Southern when they were just physically better than anyone else. NFL- Never.
The deciding factor here is what the NFL does or does not do. Sure, it might work a little in the upper college ranks (DI). But it never lasts.
I am not bashing teams for using it, some have no choice. They have to work with what they have.

[TennBison]

I don't understand, there were 10 Waffle Houses in the Spartanburg community. Surely they should have triumphed!
They must not be very good Waffle Houses.

[cx500d]

They must not be very good Waffle Houses.


Does it make a difference in the calculus if the waffle house allows smoking or not?

[TennBison]

Perfect example and actually a true reason on why teams do and do not run the option offense. First two minutes are the most important part of the clip for that reason, the rest of it is just a classy move. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKsY3yR_eOw

[cx500d]

Perfect example and actually a true reason on why teams do and do not run the option offense. First two minutes are the most important part of the clip for that reason, the rest of it is just a classy move.


Nice post

[TennBison]

Does it make a difference in the calculus if the waffle house allows smoking or not?
Only if you are a smoker, the most important part is if you can get alcohol with your meal. And if not, can you sneak it in.

[ElCid]

Feel free to educate us then. Because if anything in football works, the NFL is going to use it. It is a high risk offense, to much room for mistakes and to many QBs have a history of getting hurt (at any level). The majority of schools that run it do so because of talent reasons, they can't get the right OL players and receivers. So they look for guys who are undersized who can be faster and don't really need to block super well but just need to push a little and get in the way, and receivers who usually are not fast speed burners but they can be big and block downfield. Look at the KSU game last night, did you see their OL pushing SHSU defense around? No. For the most part all they did was get in the way, and look how bad the KSU OL was in pass plays, SHSU front 7 were all over that QB.

I don't mean to sound flippant, but anyone who does not understand the difference between pro and college already, probably will not with any additional explanation. You already hit on a couple. QBs are too valuable $'wise. In college, not so much a problem. I think we have 5 or 6 on the roster. Heck almost our entire backfield played QB in HS. Also, it chews players up. Easy to see the difference in cost compared to payoff in pros. As far as pushing the SHSU line around no, KSU was small even for most option teams. But they had to start somewhere. They will get a little bigger and better at doing that the next couple years. One problem they need to avoid is losing all that experience on the Oline at once. We were destroyed with Oline grads last year. They may be after next year, their fourth. I need to see what classes their line is. Option teams cannot afford to have the QB drop back and take his time. Pass plays need to be unexpected, and relatively quickly executed, otherwise you defeat the entire purpose of passing for an option team. Which is to think twice about stacking the box. If an option offense doesn't execute it well, they defeat the entire purpose. As I have watched a bunch of teams execute the TO over the years, it is easy to see how bad execution and play calling can burn them. We saw it last night on KSU's last red zone chance.

[thebootfitter]

That being said, the TO is a graveyard for offensive players who might want to have a good shot at the pros. No position in the TO is a hotbed for talent. Sure, a few players here or there do make it.
Jerrick McKinnon is a great example of an exception. I think if the talent is there, the NFL will find you.


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[TennBison]

I don't mean to sound flippant, but anyone who does not understand the difference between pro and college already, probably will not with any additional explanation. You already hit on a couple. QBs are too valuable $'wise. In college, not so much a problem. I think we have 5 or 6 on the roster. Heck almost our entire backfield played QB in HS. Also, it chews players up. Easy to see the difference in cost compared to payoff in pros. As far as pushing the SHSU line around no, KSU was small even for most option teams. But they had to start somewhere. They will get a little bigger and better at doing that the next couple years. One problem they need to avoid is losing all that experience on the Oline at once. We were destroyed with Oline grads last year. They may be after next year, their fourth. I need to see what classes their line is. Option teams cannot afford to have the QB drop back and take his time. Pass plays need to be unexpected, and relatively quickly executed, otherwise you defeat the entire purpose of passing for an option team. Which is to think twice about stacking the box. If an option offense doesn't execute it well, they defeat the entire purpose. As I have watched a bunch of teams execute the TO over the years, it is easy to see how bad execution and play calling can burn them. We saw it last night on KSU's last red zone chance.
I am not trying to sound flippant either. I understand the difference between pro and college. And style of play has everything to do with it. The pros will use it if it works and it works well enough to sustain a team. You are making my point by showing that you have 5-6 QBs on the roster and that they are going to get chewed up. But they are not the biggest reason on why teams run the option. McKinnon the former starting QB for Georgia Southern is a starting RB for the NFL Minnesota Vikings, RBs are easy to get for the most part. It is all about the OL and WR position and lack of high quality players at those spots. How many coaches do you know of who honestly think that if given a choice of what kind of offense to run and they had the knowledge of all offensive styles would choose the option for the rest of their career. Hardly any. And the answer is because of their careers, DII wants to coach DI FCS, FCS wants to coach DI FBS and FBS quite often want to go NFL. As you move further up the option coaches go all the way to zero (NFL). So yes, the difference between college to you might be the money invested in a player. Your not going to have Aaron Rogers run the TO when he is paid 15 million a year, he would get destroyed. But guess what, tell me why some kid in college from Spartanburg wherever should matter any less. I know it is football and players get hurt all the time, but again if you don't need to run the option why would you.

[ElCid]

I am not trying to sound flippant either. I understand the difference between pro and college. And style of play has everything to do with it. The pros will use it if it works and it works well enough to sustain a team. You are making my point by showing that you have 5-6 QBs on the roster and that they are going to get chewed up. But they are not the biggest reason on why teams run the option. McKinnon the former starting QB for Georgia Southern is a starting RB for the NFL Minnesota Vikings, RBs are easy to get for the most part. It is all about the OL and WR position and lack of high quality players at those spots. How many coaches do you know of who honestly think that if given a choice of what kind of offense to run and they had the knowledge of all offensive styles would choose the option for the rest of their career. Hardly any. And the answer is because of their careers, DII wants to coach DI FCS, FCS wants to coach DI FBS and FBS quite often want to go NFL. As you move further up the option coaches go all the way to zero (NFL). So yes, the difference between college to you might be the money invested in a player. Your not going to have Aaron Rogers run the TO when he is paid 15 million a year, he would get destroyed. But guess what, tell me why some kid in college from Spartanburg wherever should matter any less. I know it is football and players get hurt all the time, but again if you don't need to run the option why would you.

Can't dispute any of your points, except one (and you did say, hardly any).....Mike Ayers. One of the best Coaches ever. Can't wait until he retires.:D As far as having to run it, I agree to a point, especially smaller schools or selective schools, or specialty schools, like academies. But I do not think that Ga Tech (15K) and even Georgia Southern (19K) have to run it. They are pretty big schools. Tech has won a few games I think. And we all Ga Southern's record in FCS. So yes and no on that point.

[Redbird 4th & short]

Have to agree .. we'll see how they do next year, but kudos to Kennesaw State for their season.

[TennBison]

Can't dispute any of your points, except one (and you did say, hardly any).....Mike Ayers. One of the best Coaches ever. Can't wait until he retires.:D As far as having to run it, I agree to a point, especially smaller schools or selective schools, or specialty schools, like academies. But I do not think that Ga Tech (15K) and even Georgia Southern (19K) have to run it. They are pretty big schools. Tech has won a few games I think. And we all Ga Southern's record in FCS. So yes and no on that point.
So Mike Ayers of Wofford, has been there 30 years basically, not moved up so either TO got him nowhere or he never really wanted to leave. And Georgia Tech the one really big FBS school out side of Army and Navy that runs a Option offense. So when was the last TO or Option offense that won a National championship in the FBS? It isn't a question weather or not TO can work. This is a question of why would you do it if you had the option to run a pro style offense where your school and offensive players can get more exposure and appeal because they run an offense that teams at the next level do.

[PaladinFan]

So Mike Ayers of Wofford, has been there 30 years basically, not moved up so either TO got him nowhere or he never really wanted to leave. And Georgia Tech the one really big FBS school out side of Army and Navy that runs a Option offense. So when was the last TO or Option offense that won a National championship in the FBS? It isn't a question weather or not TO can work. This is a question of why would you do it if you had the option to run a pro style offense where your school and offensive players can get more exposure and appeal because they run an offense that teams at the next level do.

You are sort of grouping together a bunch of offensive philosophies to make a broad statement.

I understand that you are essentially calling the flexbone the “triple option” offense. Of course, you don’t point to a lot of FBS teams winning national titles with it because not a lot of FBS teams run it.

That’s not the only type of option offense. Auburn, for instance, essentially runs the option. Oregon did much the same thing under Chip Kelly. Both teams were effectively run heavy multi-back offenses where the QB throws the ball maybe 12-15 times a game.

Those were certainly not “pro style” offenses. Schematically, there’s not that much different between them and what a flexbone team does. They just do it out of the shotgun.

[Outsider1]

Back to the thread at hand..... Kudos Kennesaw!!

[TennBison]

You are sort of grouping together a bunch of offensive philosophies to make a broad statement.

I understand that you are essentially calling the flexbone the “triple option” offense. Of course, you don’t point to a lot of FBS teams winning national titles with it because not a lot of FBS teams run it.

That’s not the only type of option offense. Auburn, for instance, essentially runs the option. Oregon did much the same thing under Chip Kelly. Both teams were effectively run heavy multi-back offenses where the QB throws the ball maybe 12-15 times a game.

Those were certainly not “pro style” offenses. Schematically, there’s not that much different between them and what a flexbone team does. They just do it out of the shotgun.
Maybe I didn't say it in that last post but go back 1-2 before it and I did say that not a lot of FBS teams run it.
Auburn has a history of running some option offense but they also do just as much pro style, but they are run heavy.
And Oregon runs a spread offense, that uses some TO, but again is not listed as a Option offense. http://fishduck.com/playbook/

[TennBison]

You are sort of grouping together a bunch of offensive philosophies to make a broad statement.

I understand that you are essentially calling the flexbone the “triple option” offense. Of course, you don’t point to a lot of FBS teams winning national titles with it because not a lot of FBS teams run it.

That’s not the only type of option offense. Auburn, for instance, essentially runs the option. Oregon did much the same thing under Chip Kelly. Both teams were effectively run heavy multi-back offenses where the QB throws the ball maybe 12-15 times a game.

Those were certainly not “pro style” offenses. Schematically, there’s not that much different between them and what a flexbone team does. They just do it out of the shotgun.
How did Chip Kellys offense do in the Pros???

[Outsider1]

Again, back to the thread at hand... Kudos Kennesaw whatever your offense ;)

[Reign of Terrier]

Okay, this thread has deviated from its original point, so I'll tie it back to its original purpose while also adding to the option conversation.

Kennesaw State running the option is smart, for the same reason it was smart at Georgia Southern. They are both public institutions with a better possibility to recruit good athletes. I think private school fans over-sell how much academic standards are a barrier to success at this level, but I think it's fair to say looser academic standards provide the possibility of more players, which transitively means more good players.

I don't remember what kind of defense Georgia Southern ran, but I don't think they ran the dip**** zone defense you see Wofford play. The difference between Wofford now/forever and Georgia Southern is this: Wofford has and always will try to slow down the pace of the game on defense, while Georgia Southern tried to score as much as possible and played defense as a normal team. Kennesaw State will be able to do that in the future. Would be surprised if they didn't move conferences in the next 5 years and didn't go FBS in the next 15.

The thing with the option is that it has a ceiling. If you're a good program, you can win 75% of your games with it and win a couple conference championships like Wofford has. The option is usually used by teams/schools that don't feel they can recruit the kind of players to go blow for blow with the juggernauts of their respective divisions. That's why the service academies and Georgia Tech run it.

But once you run into teams that are great on defense and have athletes, it's beatable, more so than other kinds of offenses (the air raid has similar vulnerabilities, but it's more likely to rally a team that's down than an option team). There's this pervasive myth that option teams have an advantage in the playoffs because opposing teams don't see their offenses. I don't think that's true. It may have been true for a team like Georgia Southern which had freak athletes that were hard to beat in any offense (and it might be true for teams like Kennesaw, only time will tell). Wofford's probably played more playoff games than any other option program that isn't/wasn't GSU. Here are our scoring outputs in 16 games (note: some of these early games had special teams/defensive scores, they have an asterisk): 34*, 31, 9, 23, 10, 38, 17, 20, 21, 23*, 7*, 15*,17*,23,28, 10. That's not extremely impressive, we've been held below 20 points just as often as not.

I don't know if I buy the arguments about saturated recruitment (Paladinfan's argument) because I think we underestimate the talent parity that is found in the middle 80% of teams (NDSU went from 3-8 to semifinalist in a year, Charleston Southern had similar figures, Huesman got Chatt competitive pretty fast, etc).

Meanwhile, if you look at the private schools who won or reached a national title (Furman, Nova, Richmond)...none of them ran the option.

To win a national title at this level, you either out-athlete every team in your way, have a strong balance on offense, or both. GSU Fans would have you think it was the option that helped them, but it was a combination of great athletes and coaching. There are exceptions to this (EWU running the air raid offense, for instance), but all in all there's a reason why the most consistently successful teams in big games run the pro set or power I (NDSU, Bama, currently UGA, FSU, etc). Even the spread teams like JMU and Ohio State who have been successful in the last few years have balance and use power running fundamentals (hat on hat, downhill) while the teams that try to use angles too much (Oregon, Baylor, Sam Houston) or throw the ball every down (Samford, Texas Tech) choke and get blown out.

I'm a fan of the option. It's fun to watch when it's working. But as someone who has watched it and experienced it's strengths and failures first hand, I kind of want to see Wofford go another direction once Ayers retires. Kennesaw State may be able to find success with it if they turn into GSU 2.0 but I don't think the college football landscape, especially with NDSU in the mix, makes that realistic.

[katss07]

Again, back to the thread at hand... Kudos Kennesaw whatever your offense ;)
Agreed. They went far with the TO. Whatever they do in the future is up to them. Good to see a new, refreshing face in the playoffs. Makes this time of the year so much more fun, mixing in teams like Kennesaw with powers like SHSU and NDSU.

After the elimination of programs like Hofstra, Northeastern and Iona, it is good to see a new program doing well right off the bat.

[Katfan]

Enrollment has nothing to do with how good a college team is. This is not like high school where kids from one town are required to go to a school just because they live in a district. A school with 7,000 students can recruit the same kids that a school with 30,000 can. Just be cause they have 30k students, it does not mean they have a better team or are more able to run a different kind of offense.
True but I bet they get student fees from all those students. I don’t know abou ndsu, but that’s a major source of funding for athletics.

[Reign of Terrier]

Enrollment has nothing to do with how good a college team is. This is not like high school where kids from one town are required to go to a school just because they live in a district. A school with 7,000 students can recruit the same kids that a school with 30,000 can. Just be cause they have 30k students, it does not mean they have a better team or are more able to run a different kind of offense.

I don't think it's irrelevant. It may not be a direct causal relationship, but your enrollment goes a long way to show how committed a school is to a program, which can help with recruiting. There's a reason you see sellouts in Fargo, but Wofford probably will never have more than 5,000 actual butts in seats ever again at home.

Basically, your enrollment size basically determines your identity. Are you a regional program or a national one? The vast majority of FCS teams are regional, I would argue. But with Kennesaw's size, I think they could be a national one, just like all of the other national programs past and present that were great.

[Outsider1]

Yep, off track again real quick ;) I think Kennesaw just proved they are a national team even without a trophy and they did it in just a few years of existence. They don't have to do anything else at this point. If they change up, fine, if they make it back with the TO, fine. They made it this far because they are well disciplined and well balanced; period........

[TennBison]

Again, back to the thread at hand... Kudos Kennesaw whatever your offense ;)
Yeah, we heard you the first time.

[Outsider1]

Yeah, we heard you the first time.

Not really, derailed again in a blink of an eye ;)

[TennBison]

I don't think it's irrelevant. It may not be a direct causal relationship, but your enrollment goes a long way to show how committed a school is to a program, which can help with recruiting. There's a reason you see sellouts in Fargo, but Wofford probably will never have more than 5,000 actual butts in seats ever again at home.

Basically, your enrollment size basically determines your identity. Are you a regional program or a national one? The vast majority of FCS teams are regional, I would argue. But with Kennesaw's size, I think they could be a national one, just like all of the other national programs past and present that were great.
No doubt, that the size of the school will have some effect on some things. Asses in seats for one from the student body, donations from Alumni. My only point was that 30k students does not mean the coach did a great job on recruiting or on prepping players for a game.

[katss07]

I don’t see how Wofford would never get 5k plus. There is little excitement outside of a few students, the people who have the most effect on attendance, surrounding our team at Sam Houston. Outside of a 13k game we had against Nicholls early in the season, no big crowds aside from last night. I was surprised with how many people were there last night. Attendance says 5k but it was really probably 8k. And that was the biggest home game since the 2011 game against Montana.

My point is Wofford is a good team and will probably continue to be. They will get good crowds when they host in later playoff rounds. And trust me, they will in the near future.

[TennBison]

Not really, derailed again in a blink of an eye ;)
Not really, this thread is about Kennesaw St. We are talking about their Triple Option offense and their schools enrollment, nothing is off track.xcoffeex

[TennBison]

True but I bet they get student fees from all those students. I don’t know abou ndsu, but that’s a major source of funding for athletics.
That is true, 30k students with fees can cover a lot of expenses, but does that relate to a good football team over the years. Plenty of FBS schools with 50k or more for enrollment can't play football worth a darn. Case in point, Univ of Minn, 50,000 + students all paying fees and NDSU was owning them in football, and their program struggles to make it to a bowl game in the best years.
I am not sure of the NDSU student fees amount at this time, but I have understood it to be somewhat lower than the average for FCS schools, secondhand info there.

[kdinva]

No doubt, that the size of the school will have some effect on some things. Asses in seats for one from the student body, donations from Alumni. My only point was that 30k students does not mean the coach did a great job on recruiting or on prepping players for a game.

I would like to see Kennesaw win 7+ games for a few years, get more students to want to go to games, more $$$ from alums and nearby businesses, and have a demand to enlarge their stadium to over 20K....maybe 25,000..

[gofurman]

One word answer here:
Q) If it (triple option) is such a good offense, how many NFL teams run it?
A) None

Tennessee. You are too smart for that Q A. That’s because QBs are too expensive in NFL. NOT because it’s not a good offense.

NFL teams have their QBs slide too - is that a good offense ? NO. That clearly costs you a few yards you would have gained. College QBs run for the yardage in many cases. The NFL is a protection of a financial investment (QB).

Nebraska DOMINATED w the triple option in FBS ... Georgia Southern won SIX national titles in FCS with it. Navy and Georgia Tech would probably win the FCS national title. Heck GTech had Demaryous Thomas at WR w the triple option. More to the point Citadel beat SEC South Carolina (!) last year with it as Citadel fan pointed out.

I can give more detail but the problem in South is too much saturation of NEW dam* football programs relative to population growth. It’s simple numbers. Dilution of talent by too many new programs or programs moving up. Thus people try triple option as ‘market ineffiecency’ bc it’s a different type of player

Just near Furman it used to be Furman and App State and Citadel and Georgia Southrrn As FCS 15 years ago. That was it. Here are a few NEW programs - Coastal Carolina (SC). now FBS didn’t exist in 90s. (85 guys gone). Kennesaw State new (63 guys gone) FCS three year old program. Georgia State NEW program in FBS (85 guys gone). Wofford moves up from D2 to FCS. 30 more guys gone and more recruiting competition since guys will play at FCS that didn’t consider D2. PC went from D2 to FCS - that’s 2 schools both within 30 quick miles of Furman. Crazy. App State goes from FCS to FBS (22 more scholarships). Georgia Southern goes from FCS to FBS (22 more scholarships). UNC Charlotte starts an FBS program from scratch (85 guys gone )... Mercer starts an FCS program 5 years ago (63 guys gone). Now ETSU is back at FCS (63 guys gone). Samford moves from D2 to FCS in Alabama. It’s INSANE. That’s just off top of my head.

INSANE. I am objective. If population had grown by same amount it wouldn’t be a detriment. Yes our southeast population has grown but NOT by near the percentage amount of scholarships. Not close. I could look but somewhere we had those numbers. I am guessing off memory (could be way off) but It was like southeastern population growth 12%. Football scholarship growth 30%. That’s an instant killer. A. Killer. (I don’t recall the exact numbers but the point was the population growth (guys to select for football) was way way behind all these new scholarships

Example - Think if there were 6 new FCS and two new FBS programs opened within 200 miles of NDSU all offering instant playing time etc??? The talent would drain and get diluted fast. A few guys go to new program X to get to play as freshman , some others go to program Y because they throw the ball a lot , a few go to Z university because they can now get a scholarship and that school is strong in their field of study .. a few go to new program W to stay nearer to home so parents or girlfriend ... Instant saturation and thus total dilution of talent . Example.—- Furman used to could cherry pick from Wofford and PC because they were D2 and Coastal didn’t exist and etc etc. Past few years we lost several guys to Wofford. It hurts. HURTS BAD.

Most Southern FCS schools are starting behind the eight ball before we even hit the field.

It doesn’t affect Southern FBS because Bama and Clemson and UGA recruit nationally. FCS recruit locally. Also, more to Furman we are 40 minutes from Clemson. It’s not Minnesota FBS. It’s freakin Clemson. Can’t compete w that. Great example. Hunter Renfrow who caught pass to win national title for Clemson and may be a moderate NFL receiver ? Only Had offers from Furman and Wofford .... and turned them down to just walk-on at Clemson. Kills me every time I see him make another phenomenal catch. He is there go to receiver. Hell. They ran the national-title winning play for Renfrow as he their guy who catches everything . Clemson didn’t even really offer or look at him but he wanted to go there and try ...

[TheKingpin28]

I would like to see Kennesaw win 7+ games for a few years, get more students to want to go to games, more $$$ from alums and nearby businesses, and have a demand to enlarge their stadium to over 20K....maybe 25,000..

If all of this happens, expect an invite to the SlumBelt since that is their end game iirc from one of the 1660 radio shows. Being in the ATL area, they have the market and enrollment, but more importantly, the media footprint. Also, the natural rivalries of GaSt (ATL) and GaSo would be ideal with decent travel distance to App St, Troy, and CCU.

[gofurman]

All that said above about option and Southern saturation... way to go KSU. Amazing in third year of football. !

[ElCid]

All that said above about option and Southern saturation... way to go KSU. Amazing in third year of football. !

I was way surprised they beat you last year, let alone make it as far as they did this year.

[Katfan]

That is true, 30k students with fees can cover a lot of expenses, but does that relate to a good football team over the years. Plenty of FBS schools with 50k or more for enrollment can't play football worth a darn. Case in point, Univ of Minn, 50,000 + students all paying fees and NDSU was owning them in football, and their program struggles to make it to a bowl game in the best years.
I am not sure of the NDSU student fees amount at this time, but I have understood it to be somewhat lower than the average for FCS schools, secondhand info there.
Agree but FBS vs fcs is a whole different animal when it comes to budget. And yes you can have lots of resources and poor management but in the hands of good AD and coach it makes a big difference

[katss07]

Agree but FBS vs fcs is a whole different animal when it comes to budget. And yes you can have lots of resources and poor management but in the hands of good AD and coach it makes a big difference
Take SHSU for example. We have half of that. We have a good coach. AD...not so much.

[PaladinFan]

If all of this happens, expect an invite to the SlumBelt since that is their end game iirc from one of the 1660 radio shows. Being in the ATL area, they have the market and enrollment, but more importantly, the media footprint. Also, the natural rivalries of GaSt (ATL) and GaSo would be ideal with decent travel distance to App St, Troy, and CCU.

How familiar are you with the South? Georgia southern is probably over 200+ miles from Kennesaw. Kennesaw is close to 400 miles from Conway, SC (home of CCU). It’s darn near closer to drive from Kennesaw to Memphis.

Market has little to do with it. KSU is a large commuter school in a major metro area with one of the more diverse populations in the country. Atlanta is chocked full of folks that come from places other than Atlanta. KSU has no market share next to the behemoths like UGA.

It’s hard to apply some of the maxims to schools in the Deep South that may apply to flagship stateschools in sparsely populated midwestern and western states.

[PaladinFan]

That said, I’m always intrigued about the possibility of KSU and Jacksonville State joining the SoCon. Those two schools don’t really fit the typical profile, but would be great pickups from the football perspective.

KSU has a history of being in the same conference with Mercer. I’ve never been completely convinced that either program was committed to being in the FCS.

[Katfan]

Take SHSU for example. We have half of that. We have a good coach. AD...not so much.
Just think if they had double the budget to work with. And if you think our athletic programs haven’t significantly improved under our AD then we can agree to disagree.

[TheKingpin28]

How familiar are you with the South? Georgia southern is probably over 200+ miles from Kennesaw. Kennesaw is close to 400 miles from Conway, SC (home of CCU). It’s darn near closer to drive from Kennesaw to Memphis.

Market has little to do with it. KSU is a large commuter school in a major metro area with one of the more diverse populations in the country. Atlanta is chocked full of folks that come from places other than Atlanta. KSU has no market share next to the behemoths like UGA.

It’s hard to apply some of the maxims to schools in the Deep South that may apply to flagship stateschools in sparsely populated midwestern and western states.

The battle for Georgia is something that will drive people to show up. Give it time. I am quite familiar with the south and also going off what I heard on the 1660 after the San Diego game. The thing is, FBS football is all about $$$ and nothing more, especially for the SlumBelt. Give it time and watch what happens. Key word was "decent travel" not close travel. 400 miles is decent travel considering I make the drive from the Twin Cities to Fargo at least 1x a month which is round trip 400 miles. Losing NMST and Idaho and gaining KSU down the road would be beneficial financially and allow them to go to divisions

East:
App St
CCU
GaSt
GaSo
KSU

West:
Ark St
ULL
ULM
TSU
Troy

This would be huge as well for olympic sports as KSU would be a travel partner for GaSt and partially Troy (200 miles). What I am saying is that the Big South should not and will not be the end game for KSU.

[PaladinFan]

KSU to GSU is about 500 miles round trip. Ga. State and GSU play every year and it makes not a single blip on the radar of anyone. In Georgia, if it isn’t the SEC it is pretty much an irrelevant brand of football. I don’t agree with that sentiment, but that’s what it is.

I have no doubt that the SunBelt must interest teams on some financial level. There was an article last year that said GSU has increased their athletic expenses some 7million without any significant uptick in revenue. I’m sure that whatever increased revenue you may have had is offset by increased scholarship requirements, coaches salaries, and travel expenses.

For what it’s worth, the rumors are that Bohannon turned down GSU for their open head coaching position. So, that may give some indication of what he thinks about SunBelt football.

[TheKingpin28]

KSU to GSU is about 500 miles round trip. Ga. State and GSU play every year and it makes not a single blip on the radar of anyone. In Georgia, if it isn’t the SEC it is pretty much an irrelevant brand of football. I don’t agree with that sentiment, but that’s what it is.

I have no doubt that the SunBelt must interest teams on some financial level. There was an article last year that said GSU has increased their athletic expenses some 7million without any significant uptick in revenue. I’m sure that whatever increased revenue you may have had is offset by increased scholarship requirements, coaches salaries, and travel expenses.

For what it’s worth, the rumors are that Bohannon turned down GSU for their open head coaching position. So, that may give some indication of what he thinks about SunBelt football.

Bowl revenue alone would be enough to consider making the jump.

http://www.collegefootballplayoff.com/sports/2017/9/20/1641497678_131504027204965649.aspx

The five conferences that do not have contracts for their champions to participate in the Orange, Rose or Sugar Bowls will receive approximately $81.32 million in aggregate (full academic pool plus base), which the conferences will distribute as they choose.

So there is no reason to believe that each SlumBelt team won't get around 1 million roughly plus whatever their conference gets from other bowl games they and their conference mates play.

http://fiscalservices.kennesaw.edu/bursar/docs/FY%2018%20Undergrad%20Tuition%20and%20Fees.pdf

So roughly 4K a year for instate or double for out of state. So we are looking at 8-16K a year and then double that for room and board and multiply that by 85 we are looking at 2.72 million max and a low end of 1.36 million. So 1.5 million per season is what they would make in FBS just from bowl revenue, so it is not out of the question that it would be enticing. I get that they would have to add 20 or so women scholarships but they can always give more basketball, volleyball and softball scholarships too balance it out. I know to go FBS, the budget has to damn near double, but give it time and anything is possible if they can get uptick in their product as I know they have a solid baseball program. Again, we are play hypotheticals here but if KSU believes the BS is the end goal, then they are selling themselves short.

We get it, SEC football is life down in Georgia, but ESPN has a SlumBelt contract and they will do whatever they can to pimp out schools from there and MACtion schools since they are hemorraging money and will do what they have to, to make any dimes they can and if they can build a rivalry that is not there to boost their ratings, I promise you they will.

[gofurman]

I was **way surprised they beat you last year***, let alone make it as far as they did this year.

Me too! That said, that loss looks a LOT different now. Both Furman and KSU look to be high quality teams now

[Sir William]

For what it’s worth, the rumors are that Bohannon turned down GSU for their open head coaching position. So, that may give some indication of what he thinks about SunBelt football.

Or maybe he just remembered how many dingleberries he’d have to put with who live in Statesboro, attend GaSo and/or root for the program, and he decided it wasn’t worth it!

[uni88]

The Triple Option is a play not a formation or an offense.
The Flexbone is a formation.
The Veer is an offense or at least a series of plays
All three are frequently associated with each other. The Triple Option can be run out of multiple formations (Wing-T, Double Wing, Split Back, Wishbone, etc.).

I believe the last "traditional" college option team to win an FBS level national championship was Nebraska. They ran the Veer and other option plays. Clemson, Ohio State, Auburn, Florida have won national championships with the read option having a major role in their playbook. The read option is an option based offense. Auburn's read option offense is based on the Wing-T. Oregon under Kelly did have Triple Option plays but they ran them out of a split back set where the option was the QB, and both backs without motion.

Kennesaw deserves kudos! Their success has some parallels to Georgia Southern. Georgia Southern had some serious talent (Tracy Ham) but was new to football when they won their first I-AA national championship in 1985.

[ElCid]

The Triple Option is a play not a formation or an offense.
The Flexbone is a formation.
The Veer is an offense or at least a series of plays
All three are frequently associated with each other. The Triple Option can be run out of multiple formations (Wing-T, Double Wing, Split Back, Wishbone, etc.).

I believe the last "traditional" college option team to win an FBS level national championship was Nebraska. They ran the Veer and other option plays. Clemson, Ohio State, Auburn, Florida have won national championships with the read option having a major role in their playbook. The read option is an option based offense. Auburn's read option offense is based on the Wing-T. Oregon under Kelly did have Triple Option plays but they ran them out of a split back set where the option was the QB, and both backs without motion.

Kennesaw deserves kudos! Their success has some parallels to Georgia Southern. Georgia Southern had some serious talent (Tracy Ham) but was new to football when they won their first I-AA national championship in 1985.

Nice explanation. I, like many, simply use TO for shorthand, even though it is far from accurate.

[BNATION]

Great team, great fans. Just so everyone knows KSU AD is on record that they are working towards the sun belt. They will be just like a Georgia State. Count on them to be in FCS another couple years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[underdawg]

Agree. Tough, disciplined team. KSU will be around. But, as somebody mentioned on another thread, with their enrollment and early success I'm not sure they should stick with the triple option offense. They can get the talent to be more balanced.

They really have over 35,000 students???????????????

[ElCid]

They really have over 35,000 students???????????????

Yeah, but I think that they have a lot of commuter students. Not the traditional resident students that would be more apt to support a football program. That is what I heard, but we really need one of the KSU bubbas to chime in to give us a more accurate picture.

[centennial]

The Triple Option is a play not a formation or an offense.
The Flexbone is a formation.
The Veer is an offense or at least a series of plays
All three are frequently associated with each other. The Triple Option can be run out of multiple formations (Wing-T, Double Wing, Split Back, Wishbone, etc.).

I believe the last "traditional" college option team to win an FBS level national championship was Nebraska. They ran the Veer and other option plays. Clemson, Ohio State, Auburn, Florida have won national championships with the read option having a major role in their playbook. The read option is an option based offense. Auburn's read option offense is based on the Wing-T. Oregon under Kelly did have Triple Option plays but they ran them out of a split back set where the option was the QB, and both backs without motion.

Kennesaw deserves kudos! Their success has some parallels to Georgia Southern. Georgia Southern had some serious talent (Tracy Ham) but was new to football when they won their first I-AA national championship in 1985.

The read option made it all the way out the NFL. I have seen the Eagles run it, I have seen the Panthers run it. It's another wrinkle just like every now and then you'll see a NFL team do a pitch. Gives opponents more to think about. Sam Houston had some flexbone looks with their last coach, but they weren't an option offense. Full option offenses have hard time against teams with good defenses.

[gofurman]

The read option made it all the way out the NFL. I have seen the Eagles run it, I have seen the Panthers run it. It's another wrinkle just like every now and then you'll see a NFL team do a pitch. Gives opponents more to think about. Sam Houston had some flexbone looks with their last coach, but they weren't an option offense. Full option offenses have hard time against teams with good defenses.

thats a great point. Some dufus here said ' why don't NFL teams run option if it works ?' They DO RUN THE OPTION IN THE NFL. A lot of read option but you need Cam Newton, not Peyton Manning as your QB. also App State owned FCS w the option running off 3 National titles in 2005 / 2006 / and 2007. They absolutely ran option w Armanti Edwards. It was just 'spread option'. People think spread option (BC you spread receivers wide) is a passing set. App ran the ball twice as much (or more) than they passed those years. Like 50 runs, 20 passes out of the 'spread OPTION'. They also upset Michigan in the Big House running that form of option

and many SEC top teams and Clemson etc run spread or particularly read option plays

i agree, people are confusing pure triple option vs spread option vs formations like wingT vs veer stuff

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

I get a kick out of all those who talk about the triple option like it is not a worthy offense. News flash, it is an equalizer against much better teams, but you need to have good execution.

I would re-phrase this to say it is an equalizer against more talented, but undisciplined teams. THIS is why you do not see it in the NFL. Strong, disciplined players will bust through and leave the triple-option DOA, and the more a team gets disrupted, the greater the likelihood of a fumble-ruskie on those pitches/handoffs/keepers.

But yes, if you have a group of solid players on offense, the scheme can make defenses that over-pursue look flat out silly. xthumbsupx

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

JMU also runs a spread option. Coach Mickey Matthews (who just retired from Def. Coordinator at Coastal Carolina) spent time with the WVU coaches in the offseasons to adopt/adapt some of their wrinkles in the 2000s. Post Coach MM era, the Dukes have kept the same offensive scheme from what I can tell, though the playcalling has significantly improved! The team is built more for speed, recruiting athletes and then shaping them into position players (linemen aside).

[PaladinFan]

The read option made it all the way out the NFL. I have seen the Eagles run it, I have seen the Panthers run it. It's another wrinkle just like every now and then you'll see a NFL team do a pitch. Gives opponents more to think about. Sam Houston had some flexbone looks with their last coach, but they weren't an option offense. Full option offenses have hard time against teams with good defenses.

In years of watching the flexbone teams, from Georgia Southern, Georgia Tech, Citadel, Wofford, and half the high schools south of Atlanta, the offense loses a lot of potency when you have ample time to prepare for it.

Some of the difficulty of the offense in modern days is teams struggle to prepare for it in a couple of days in the middle of the season. Most programs that know they will see one of these flexbone teams will start installing their defense in preseason practice. That is particularly true in the SoCon where you are guaranteed to see a similar offense at least twice.

That effectiveness is somewhat lost when teams have ample time to prepare for it, such as in the bowl season or when you factor in post season bye weeks.

And, let's be honest, Wofford's offense is not a great version of the offense. I think even their fan base would admit that.

[PaladinFan]

The Triple Option is a play not a formation or an offense.
The Flexbone is a formation.
The Veer is an offense or at least a series of plays
All three are frequently associated with each other. The Triple Option can be run out of multiple formations (Wing-T, Double Wing, Split Back, Wishbone, etc.).

I believe the last "traditional" college option team to win an FBS level national championship was Nebraska. They ran the Veer and other option plays. Clemson, Ohio State, Auburn, Florida have won national championships with the read option having a major role in their playbook. The read option is an option based offense. Auburn's read option offense is based on the Wing-T. Oregon under Kelly did have Triple Option plays but they ran them out of a split back set where the option was the QB, and both backs without motion.

Kennesaw deserves kudos! Their success has some parallels to Georgia Southern. Georgia Southern had some serious talent (Tracy Ham) but was new to football when they won their first I-AA national championship in 1985.

Bingo.

Most folks just refer to teams that run a lot of flexbone as "triple option" teams. Even commentators on national broadcasts do. It's hard to explain without getting out the x's and o's.

A lot of plays that may even look like option really aren't. Much of the backfield motion is nothing other than window dressing to disguise other plays and get the linebackers to take a step or two out of position.

[PaladinFan]

Incidentally, the last "great" flexbone/option offense I remember seeing at the FCS was Georgia Southern's 2004 team. That Eagles team averaged 47.0 points and nearly 500 yards a game.

They lost a closer than expected game in week 1 to UGA, and then beat their next 7 opponents by a combined 396 to 78 (SDSU fans may remember a 63-7 drubbing at Paulson that year). They eventually ran into #3 Furman and their top defense and had an early exit in the post-season to UNH in a 4 point game played in deluge.

In my time following FCS football, I'd put that GSU team as the best offensive squad I've ever seen regardless of what offense they ran. The Armanti Edwards-led App State teams would follow.

[ElCid]

Incidentally, the last "great" flexbone/option offense I remember seeing at the FCS was Georgia Southern's 2004 team. That Eagles team averaged 47.0 points and nearly 500 yards a game.

They lost a closer than expected game in week 1 to UGA, and then beat their next 7 opponents by a combined 396 to 78 (SDSU fans may remember a 63-7 drubbing at Paulson that year). They eventually ran into #3 Furman and their top defense and had an early exit in the post-season to UNH in a 4 point game played in deluge.

In my time following FCS football, I'd put that GSU team as the best offensive squad I've ever seen regardless of what offense they ran. The Armanti Edwards-led App State teams would follow.

Yes.

[PaladinFan]

Yes.

I've seen a lot of good teams over the years, but that group would beat the crap out of every team that had the misfortune to step on the field with them.

[POD Knows]

Does it make a difference in the calculus if the waffle house allows smoking or not?You mean smoking by the cooks and the wait staff on the job, I thought that was a job benefit or requirement for employment that that place.

[Birdman_]

Yeah, but I think that they have a lot of commuter students. Not the traditional resident students that would be more apt to support a football program. That is what I heard, but we really need one of the KSU bubbas to chime in to give us a more accurate picture.
That's accurate. Whether students commute from their parents' home or live on/near campus, most grew up within an hour of the school (many are within 30-45 min or so), so many students go home on the weekends or travel to other schools to visit friends, significant others, etc. I think KSU has more students living on campus than all but maybe 1-2 colleges in GA, however as you know, most students in a college town live off campus in the surrounding apartments/neighborhoods and take the area over. While a lot of students do live off campus, many opt to stay at home and save money since many people grew up so close to the school. Kennesaw as a city also isn't much of a college town. There's tons to do, and it's very close to ATL, but it's in suburbia, so there are a lot of laws within the city that prevent the typical college scene that most colleges/universities have. I personally don't like the "commuter school" excuse, because it's not a far drive for anyone that attends. The main culprit is that the culture around the University is to leave on the weekends, which is something that needs to change. The atmosphere at football games could be something fierce if people decide to stick around on the weekends.

[Daytripper]

That's accurate. Whether students commute from their parents' home or live on/near campus, most grew up within an hour of the school (many are within 30-45 min or so), so many students go home on the weekends or travel to other schools to visit friends, significant others, etc. I think KSU has more students living on campus than all but maybe 1-2 colleges in GA, however as you know, most students in a college town live off campus in the surrounding apartments/neighborhoods and take the area over. While a lot of students do live off campus, many opt to stay at home and save money since many people grew up so close to the school. Kennesaw as a city also isn't much of a college town. There's tons to do, and it's very close to ATL, but it's in suburbia, so there are a lot of laws within the city that prevent the typical college scene that most colleges/universities have. I personally don't like the "commuter school" excuse, because it's not a far drive for anyone that attends. The main culprit is that the culture around the University is to leave on the weekends, which is something that needs to change. The atmosphere at football games could be something fierce if people decide to stick around on the weekends.

Same with Sam Houston. We are just too close to The Woodlands and Houston. That is where a big chunk of our student body is from. They go home to hang out with their homeys on the weekends...

[Hammerhead]

Yeah, but I think that they have a lot of commuter students. Not the traditional resident students that would be more apt to support a football program. That is what I heard, but we really need one of the KSU bubbas to chime in to give us a more accurate picture.

Portland State is another large school (about 27,000 students) who are mostly commuters. I'm sure it's not easy for a new program in Kennesaw to get new fans where the SEC is king.

[Birdman_]

Portland State is another large school (about 27,000 students) who are mostly commuters. I'm sure it's not easy for a new program in Kennesaw to get new fans where the SEC is king.

This is also a great point. Existing CFB allegiances are very strong, so it’s hard for people to skip their favorite team’s game to watch KSU play a team that “no one has ever heard of” (and yes, I do see the irony in that statement).

As many of you have mentioned though, this season really opened a lot of people’s eyes to the program, so I’m hopeful there will be a lot of excitement going forward. We open next season against Georgia State, so I’m expecting a huge marketing push for that game.

[Daytripper]

Portland State is another large school (about 27,000 students) who are mostly commuters. I'm sure it's not easy for a new program in Kennesaw to get new fans where the SEC is king.

Most of Texas still thinks they are in the Southwest Conference.

[ElCid]

This is also a great point. Existing CFB allegiances are very strong, so it’s hard for people to skip their favorite team’s game to watch KSU play a team that “no one has ever heard of” (and yes, I do see the irony in that statement).

As many of you have mentioned though, this season really opened a lot of people’s eyes to the program, so I’m hopeful there will be a lot of excitement going forward. We open next season against Georgia State, so I’m expecting a huge marketing push for that game.

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense that KSU has done well. You are only the third FCS program in the state now. With Ga So leaving and then Mercer starting up, there really was a big void in Georgia in regard to FCS. The state is huge. And they have great football all over it (having lived in Warner Robins for 4 years and then later for 10 more years, I saw it every fall). It really should be a prime ground for an in state school like KSU to recruit from....to the detriment of the Southern and the other Big South schools mainly. Not to mention the Slum Belt and the other G5 conferences with a SE recruiting footprint. Probably not much of dent in the ACC or SEC. But it trickles up and down.

[Birdman_]

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense that KSU has done well. You are only the third FCS program in the state now. With Ga So leaving and then Mercer starting up, there really was a big void in Georgia in regard to FCS. The state is huge. And they have great football all over it (having lived in Warner Robins for 4 years and then later for 10 more years, I saw it every fall). It really should be a prime ground for an in state school like KSU to recruit from....to the detriment of the Southern and the other Big South schools mainly. Not to mention the Slum Belt and the other G5 conferences with a SE recruiting footprint. Probably not much of dent in the ACC or SEC. But it trickles up and down.

There’s a lot of truth to this. There’s certainly a void, however we do face some challenges competing for people’s attention that didn’t impact GaSo in the same way since KSU is in the metro Atlanta area, and GaSo is quite literally in the middle of nowhere. There are obvious pros from a recruiting perspective, so it’s all probably a net positive in the long-term, but interesting nonetheless. Lots to look forward to.

[ElCid]

There’s a lot of truth to this. There’s certainly a void, however we do face some challenges competing for people’s attention that didn’t impact GaSo in the same way since KSU is in the metro Atlanta area, and GaSo is quite literally in the middle of nowhere. There are obvious pros from a recruiting perspective, so it’s all probably a net positive in the long-term, but interesting nonetheless. Lots to look forward to.

Yeah Statesboro is nothing to write home about.xlolx

[PaladinFan]

Yeah Statesboro is nothing to write home about.xlolx

It's not even Southern Georgia.

Of course, for folks in Atlanta, everything south of 285 is South Georgia.