Top ten FCS schools

[TennBison]

I am looking for opinions into what top schools are really making a push to put their football programs at the top or as good as they can possibly be. This should range from bringing in top coaches and paying them, to updating facilities (if needed), and which ones are doing it right and not just spinning their wheels. So basically what schools are trying to make themselves into the Alabamas and the Clemsons of the FCS level, minus the 100 million dollar a year budget.

[kalm]

Not EWU.

While the athletic department and AD have worked tirelessly the school had the opportunity to strike while the iron was hot but that takes vision and the ability to assume risk from the administration and BoT.

Instead the administration has rested on our laurels while other conference schools and surrounding FBS programs are making huge investments in facilities and coaches salaries.

Will have to settle on being the chippy little under-funded directional U that over-achieves for now.

[Wildcat1997]

IMO Abilene Christian is making a big push. We hired the best D2 coach in America in Adam Dorrel, who won 90% of his games and 3 titles in 4 years at NWMSU, and we just built a $50 million on campus stadium that opened this year. It’ll take some time but I think we can eventually be competing with the big boys.

[JSUSoutherner]

We pay our coaches.

We have top notch facilities.

We have plenty of talent on our roster.

We've been doing great with OOC scheduling.

We have plenty of underwhelming results. xcoffeex

[DFW HOYA]

So basically what schools are trying to make themselves into the Alabamas and the Clemsons of the FCS level, minus the 100 million dollar a year budget.

Well, Georgetown isn't on this list, but here are five worthy of the discussion:

1. James Madison
2. North Dakota State
3. Montana
4. Jacksonville State
5. South Dakota State

Up and coming:
1. Kennesaw State

[TennBison]

I myself put NDSU at the top.
But not knowing the internal workings of all the other schools I have to go only by perception. So it looks like JMU, SDSU, JSU, Wofford. These are the only ones that jump out at me.

[katss07]

1. Montana
2. NDSU
3. JMU
4. South Dakota State
5. Jacksonville State
6. Montana State
7. Kennesaw
8. Wofford

[TennBison]

Well, Georgetown isn't on this list, but here are five worthy of the discussion:

1. James Madison
2. North Dakota State
3. Montana
4. Jacksonville State
5. South Dakota State

Up and coming:
1. Kennesaw State
I wondered about Montana, but they seem to be flopping around and without any direction. Nothing that screams or even pokes you with a finger to let you know they are going anywhere. They have history on their side, but does that translate to a bright future?

[Sader87]

Harvard and Yale have to be in the discussion....sorry play-off lovers, but they are.

[UNHWildcat18]

I’d take a hard look at UNH.
Opened new stadium, replaced turf, school is desperately trying to expand the field house on the away side where the seats used to be, renovating locker rooms, 14 years in the playoffs, expanding coverage on all sorts of media, attendance is up.

Id honestly rank UNH behind Uconn/BC as the most known and cared about program in New England

[TennBison]

I’d take a hard look at UNH.
Opened new stadium, replaced turf, school is desperately trying to expand the field house on the away side where the seats used to be, renovating locker rooms, 14 years in the playoffs, expanding coverage on all sorts of media, attendance is up.

Id honestly rank UNH behind only BC as the most known and cared about program in New England
I had not been to New England area in a long time, we took or grandson with us to go to Old Orchard Beach Maine in July. We landed in boston at Logan and drove up went right through UNH country. Beautiful area up there. But will never go to Old Orchard Beach again.

[Silenoz]

I wondered about Montana, but they seem to be flopping around and without any direction. Nothing that screams or even pokes you with a finger to let you know they are going anywhere. They have history on their side, but does that translate to a bright future?

I mean, we're no Wofford

[JimmyJack]

SDSU has spent more than $100 million in private money on football facilities in the last 8 years. Football building (Dykhouse Student Athlete Center) was about $6 million; Sanford Jackrabbit Athletic Complex (Indoor practice facility with full-width, 100-yard field, 80 and two end zones), $32 million and Dana J. Dykhouse Stadium, $65 million.

[iBOsbu]

Stony Brook has increased spending by a lot since joining CAA and working hard to become a top FCS program. The table below will show that very few FCS program are above Stony Brook (#90) in terms of spending: http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/
We have just expanded stadium this year and planning to build an indoor training center soon (https://twitter.com/ShawnHeilbron/status/935652788767477762 (https://twitter.com/ShawnHeilbron/status/935652788767477762?s=17)).

[putter]

SDSU is impressive what they have done with their facilities for sure. Did not know Abline Christian has put that much money into their programs. Montana is doing incremental things. Not sure what you can do when you already have a stadium that seats over 25,000, added a large new video board with LCD boards in the North Endzone and along the East Side bleachers to show time, score and ads. Just built the $14 million dollar champions center (new locker room and weight room etc.) after building a $2 million dollar academic center. On field results have lagged, that is why they just let go of Bob Stitt who went 21-14 in 3 years. Not getting it done and keeping butts in the seats.

[Outsider1]

Stony Brook has increased spending by a lot since joining CAA and working hard to become a top FCS program. The table below will show that very few FCS program are above Stony Brook (#90) in terms of spending: http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances/
We have just expanded stadium this year and planning to build an indoor training center soon (https://twitter.com/ShawnHeilbron/status/935652788767477762 (https://twitter.com/ShawnHeilbron/status/935652788767477762?s=17)).



Thanks for the link, as much as we have begun to put into our program and are beginning to get back it puts things into perspective if we didn't make the list at all.

[Redbird 4th & short]

We're not top 10, but might fall under top 10 most improved:

1. Hired Spack in 2009 .. making 300k + incentive bonuses
2. Hancock 2.0 in 2013 - spent 25m on brand new home/east side, constructed with future phases in mind
3. new jumbotron scoreboard in 2014
4. new turf coming in spring 2018
5. multipurpose indoor facility coming ??? AD recently announced fund raising is well on its way, but no date certain
6. moved from bottom of MVFC in APR prior to Spack to #1 for 3 straight years

coming off 50+ years of lethargy prior to 2009, this has redbird nation guardedly optimistic about the future.

ISU is doing very well financially compared to many peer Midwest FCS schools, despite state of Illinois reneging on funding commitments. Campus sees regular upgrades to dorms, athletic facilities, etc. Were very fortunate with how they had manage their finances. Enrollments continues to grow, with average entrance scores rising as well.

[iBOsbu]

Thanks for the link, as much as we have begun to put into our program and are beginning to get back it puts things into perspective if we didn't make the list at all.

You shouldnt worry. I should’ve clarified.. the USA Today list only includes public institutions. Still a good gauge for us.. comparing to other public institutions.

[TennBison]

SDSU is impressive what they have done with their facilities for sure. Did not know Abline Christian has put that much money into their programs. Montana is doing incremental things. Not sure what you can do when you already have a stadium that seats over 25,000, added a large new video board with LCD boards in the North Endzone and along the East Side bleachers to show time, score and ads. Just built the $14 million dollar champions center (new locker room and weight room etc.) after building a $2 million dollar academic center. On field results have lagged, that is why they just let go of Bob Stitt who went 21-14 in 3 years. Not getting it done and keeping butts in the seats.
Your stadium is already about as good as it gets, great fan support at the games and a fantastic stadium with a view.I was out of the loop on other factors about the Montana program like salary for coaches and other things.

[Outsider1]

You shouldnt worry. I should’ve clarified.. the USA Today list only includes public institutions. Still a good gauge for us.. comparing to other public institutions.

It is actually an interesting list.

[TennBison]

The link was started to help me and others get a feel about the programs out there and info that is unknown to us about what they are doing. Some schools can and some can't do much to make their programs a big deal. It is just reality of economics in this day and age. I find it interesting how some of the schools seem to come across as if they are FCS level power five schools. Where does the money come from for big stadiums and tens of millions in improvements while other schools are lucky to have electricity for lights for reading in class. Why can a school like Kennesaw St make a big splash in just its third year of football, while 100 + year old schools can't complete a pass or have a football field with grass on it. Some schools just seem to have it all going in their favor while others can't catch a break. What is the secret to being in the playoffs for 15 straight years when other can play in a championship game one year and a few years later not make the playoffs. What is the secret formula for success and does your school have it.

[TennBison]

Thanks for the link, as much as we have begun to put into our program and are beginning to get back it puts things into perspective if we didn't make the list at all.
I have to admit, I never thought about ACU as a school that was doing much. Now I know different.

[putter]

Your stadium is already about as good as it gets, great fan support at the games and a fantastic stadium with a view.I was out of the loop on other factors about the Montana program like salary for coaches and other things.

Just hiring a new coach last week. His HC salary is base of $185,000 before any media money. I know he negotiated $25,000 more for the assistant coaching pool, however, I do not know what OC, DC and position coaches make at Montana. I don't think it is on the level of NDSU.

[Outsider1]

ACU is one of those schools that has been around a long time with historic and not so historic seasons. We were an original member of the Southland and a good example of what you are talking about with economics. We are a small private institution and as other schools grew, or remained large and in big conferences, we were forced to make other changes as new conferences and levels came about. We played in the local high school stadium for decades before being lucky enough to have a few donors willing to step up recently. We won national championships at our respective level before and now we are learning what it takes in DI, even the FCS. The transition period itself has been difficult dealing with higher costs, as well as differences in scholarships and GPA requirements. So honestly, even though economics is a major factor, we have found many other things to be very tricky as well. Things like campus and administrative culture, player risk taking and discipline, as well as others have been huge for us. We had to have donors step up at least another 25-50k a year to boost salary and use revenue from FBS games and HS playoff games with the new stadium to also help. It is interesting to see teams like Kennesaw see success so quickly while others I know, like Houston Baptist, Lamar and Incarnate Word struggle so much; even us who had a decent DII program. Even hiring a winning coach and adding money and facilities to our program isn't enough for immediate success. We are in a heavily recruited area and have a very expensive tuition level, so getting enough great players takes time and will always be somewhat limiting.

[mango433]

The question I have as an SDSU fan is, where do we go and what’s the budget when Stig retires? If we are a true top-10 school, the hiring pool should be full of talent and the budget high.


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[Thumper 76]

The question I have as an SDSU fan is, where do we go and what’s the budget when Stig retires? If we are a true top-10 school, the hiring pool should be full of talent and the budget high.


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Stig makes like $200-$225k doesn’t he? I thought I saw that somewhere he got a bump with his new contract. I remember reading an article from Zimmer interviewing Sell about that and sell said they constantly are watching to see what the current rate will be to get a good coach to replace Stig when he retires, and they are prepared to pay more I believe. I have to think it’s going to be a very desirable job once it opens up. Stable university, incredible facilities, growing fan base. Hopefully if we hire outside the program it’s someone who understands what SDSU football is and wants to continue that on and off the field. I would bet Eidsness gets a good look and hopefully Eck does too.


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[JimmyJack]

Stig makes like $200-$225k doesn’t he? I thought I saw that somewhere he got a bump with his new contract. I remember reading an article from Zimmer interviewing Sell about that and sell said they constantly are watching to see what the current rate will be to get a good coach to replace Stig when he retires, and they are prepared to pay more I believe. I have to think it’s going to be a very desirable job once it opens up. Stable university, incredible facilities, growing fan base. Hopefully if we hire outside the program it’s someone who understands what SDSU football is and wants to continue that on and off the field. I would bet Eidsness gets a good look and hopefully Eck does too.


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According to open.sd.gov, Stig makes $240,000

[Mattymc727]

Pretty much those schools that make the playoffs frequently

[PaladinNation]

I'd say Furman might fit into this discussion.

Just spent 12-million plus to renovate Paladin Stadium, and add the Pearce-Horton Football Complex.
Terminated contract with Bruce Fowler … $$$ Hired Clay Hendrix.

Furman was down to two head coach options - Des Kitchens (NCST) 291K and Clay Hendrix (AFA) 219K.
Furman is private, I'm guessing Clay is making over 250K.

CCH builds an impressive 1st year staff.

George Quarles hired as Assistant Head Coach. The fastest coach in U.S. high school football history to register 200 wins, he guided Maryville to 11 state championships, including the last four in TSSAA Class 6A, and 15 state title game appearances, and won at least 10 games every season there.

Drew Cronic hired as offensive coordinator. Coached five years at Reinhardt (Ga.) University, where he served as head coach the last two seasons and posted a combined 22-3 record. His last season for the Eagles; Mid-South Conference championship, and semifinal finish in the National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics (NAIA) playoffs with a squad that averaged 51.1 points and 550.6 yards per game.

Chad Staggs hired as defensive coordinator. Hired from Charleston Southern, whose defenses at Charleston Southern ranked among the top seven in the Football Championship Subdivision in 2015-2016.

The above facts alone don't make a Top FCS program. So let's add some dollars and fan support.
Furman has been a sleeping giant waiting to wake up - since it's last successful period 2004-2005.

Furman announced the Championship Fund at the hiring of CCH - 1 Million.
July 2017, Furman receives a 1 Million gift for funding Football coaches salaries.
Rumor is there will be another major gift funding coaches salaries.

Fan support for the last several years… has been terrible. This season those numbers changed quicker than I thought.
Furman brought a big, vocal crowd to Elon, and then filled the visiting stands at Wofford - my guess over 2000 purple attended.

Furman has a ton of work to do, but the program is a sleeping giant.
Furman has an extensive high school coaching network. Lots of high school coaches are grads or connected to Furman.
Location: Greenville, SC is booming. One of the fastest growing cities in the US. It's vibrant enough to support Furman as well as Clemson and SC.
Administration support and Former Player support and Community support is critical and Clay has shown an uncanny ability to do this.

[Terry2889]

I had not been to New England area in a long time, we took or grandson with us to go to Old Orchard Beach Maine in July. We landed in boston at Logan and drove up went right through UNH country. Beautiful area up there. But will never go to Old Orchard Beach again.

The beach is soooo far from the parking lot... Still better than dirty Jersey Shore : (

[Daytripper]

We're just treading water.....xdontknowx

[ST_Lawson]

I know it's already been mentioned, but I think Kennesaw State is really making a huge push to be a top FCS program or in a few years, a solid G5 FBS program.


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[MR. CHICKEN]

The link was started to help me and others get a feel about the programs out there and info that is unknown to us about what they are doing. Some schools can and some can't do much to make their programs a big deal. It is just reality of economics in this day and age. I find it interesting how some of the schools seem to come across as if they are FCS level power five schools. Where does the money come from for big stadiums and tens of millions in improvements while other schools are lucky to have electricity for lights for reading in class. Why can a school like Kennesaw St make a big splash in just its third year of football, while 100 + year old schools can't complete a pass or have a football field with grass on it. Some schools just seem to have it all going in their favor while others can't catch a break. What is the secret to being in the playoffs for 15 straight years when other can play in a championship game one year and a few years later not make the playoffs. What is the secret formula for success and does your school have it.


..........UH......NEVERAH MIND........xsighx.....AWK!

[clenz]

UNI checks every single box except being willing to make a change to push a stagnated program over the top.

-Coaches pay? Farley makes 450Kish per year when all bonuses and incentives are paid out. His current buy out is 1.8m
-Facilities? Take issue with playing in a dome all you want but the facilities in/around the dome are top flight. In the last decade a brand new weight room, new locker room, new team room in the works, complete remodel of the north concourse that matched the weight room, locker room and addition of suites, 3rd largest video board in the FCS, our secondary score board is video capable and is as large/bigger than most FCS schools primary board.
-Donor support? Setting record donations every year right now
-Fund raising to further renovate the entire stadium

When this job comes open sometime before the 2019 season (and it will) it will attract very high quality candidates. Right now the issue holding UNI back is a 1.8m buy out. The money is there for it, but the decision is coming down to spending that on the buy out a the 2 level practice facility for our basketball team because the buy out drops by 1.2m after 2018

Not top 5 right now, but I'd argue for 6-10 range

[BNATION]

lol, i love it, we only win more playoff games in the past decade besides the Alabama of our division....

We're just treading water.....xdontknowx

[McNeese72]

McNeese is slowly sinking because of all the budget cuts in Louisiana.

Doc

[MR. CHICKEN]

...HOW'S 'BOUT BOTTOM 10.........YOU-DEE.......LAST/NEXT TA LAST IN PASSIN'.........(WORSE...DAN DUH CLOUD UH DUSTERS)....xembarrassedx.....PRESS-BOX....MADE FROM OL' APPLIANCE BOXES....:(...CARTOON LIKE...MASCOT....xlolx....NO GOOD SELECTION UH CONDIMENTS..xsmhx..(DUH BIG BIRD..PREFERS DILL RELISH)........CANNED UH PERENNIAL PLAY-OFF COACHxcoolx/HIRED UH REPLACEMENT..xoopsx.. WHOSE PLAY-BOOK...WAS UH LOOSE LEAF BINDER...FILLED WHIFF FUDGE RECEIPES.......THREATENS TA RENOVATE TUBBY LAND....FO' SIXTY MIL....WHIFF FINANCE CAMPAIGHN......"BLUE HAIRS......FO' BLUE HENS"...xeekx...(PLEDGE YER SS CHECKS/REQUIRED 401 TAKE-OUTS/DECLARE DUH PENNIES..ON YER EYES)........WANNA IMPLODE PEE WALL....(EVERAH SEE LINE @...LADY CHICKS.....BAFF-ROOM?)...xconfusedx....AN' GUARANTEED X-MAS SHOPPIN'.......THANKSGIVIN' WEEK-END....xxmasx.....BRAWK!

[Neighbor2]

I used to think Delaware was the next BIG MOVER UP. Years ago, trips there to watch Lehigh/Delaware had all the look and feel of Mid Major FBS events. If I remember correctly, a new Athletic Director there made a few bad choices and everything stalled. The Delaware fans were REALLY into it and traveled well, too!

Any real chance the Blue Hens regain all that?

[MR. CHICKEN]

I used to think Delaware was the next BIG MOVER UP. Years ago, trips there to watch Lehigh/Delaware had all the look and feel of Mid Major FBS events. If I remember correctly, a new Athletic Director there made a few bad choices and everything stalled. The Delaware fans were REALLY into it and traveled well, too!

Any real chance the Blue Hens regain all that?

.....SEE ABOVE.......AWK!

[Daytripper]

ACU is one of those schools that has been around a long time with historic and not so historic seasons. We were an original member of the Southland and a good example of what you are talking about with economics. We are a small private institution and as other schools grew, or remained large and in big conferences, we were forced to make other changes as new conferences and levels came about. We played in the local high school stadium for decades before being lucky enough to have a few donors willing to step up recently. We won national championships at our respective level before and now we are learning what it takes in DI, even the FCS. The transition period itself has been difficult dealing with higher costs, as well as differences in scholarships and GPA requirements. So honestly, even though economics is a major factor, we have found many other things to be very tricky as well. Things like campus and administrative culture, player risk taking and discipline, as well as others have been huge for us. We had to have donors step up at least another 25-50k a year to boost salary and use revenue from FBS games and HS playoff games with the new stadium to also help. It is interesting to see teams like Kennesaw see success so quickly while others I know, like Houston Baptist, Lamar and Incarnate Word struggle so much; even us who had a decent DII program. Even hiring a winning coach and adding money and facilities to our program isn't enough for immediate success. We are in a heavily recruited area and have a very expensive tuition level, so getting enough great players takes time and will always be somewhat limiting.

ACU is a sleeping giant that is now awakening from its slumber.... Look out..

[Daytripper]

lol, i love it, we only win more playoff games in the past decade besides the Alabama of our division....

This thread is about facilities, fundraising, and other aspects that tend to foster and support a winning program. We are winning IN SPITE OF our administration.

[BNATION]

I think our coaching budget is top 5 in FCS. If Im not mistaken.


This thread is about facilities, fundraising, and other aspects that tend to foster and support a winning program. We are winning IN SPITE OF our administration.

[Daytripper]

I think our coaching budget is top 5 in FCS. If Im not mistaken.

There were 4400 people in the stands for a home playoff game. That is all you need to know about the ability of our administration to do their job. They can hire a good coach and pay him decently...that's it. There is more to sustaining a long-term successful program than that.

[Wildcat1997]

ACU is a sleeping giant that is now awakening from its slumber.... Look out..I like you Daytripper.

[BadlandsGrizFan]

I wondered about Montana, but they seem to be flopping around and without any direction. Nothing that screams or even pokes you with a finger to let you know they are going anywhere. They have history on their side, but does that translate to a bright future?

We lost too our rival and missed the playoffs for the 2nd year...canned our coach...and brought back Montana's native son Bobby Hauck!!!!

If that doesnt scream Alabama of the FCS idk what does lol.

[Daytripper]

I like you Daytripper.

xlovexxlovexxlovex

[BadlandsGrizFan]

I like you Daytripper.

I kinda agree with this tho...right in the middle of a hotbed for talent.

[UNH72Plus]

I had not been to New England area in a long time, we took or grandson with us to go to Old Orchard Beach Maine in July. We landed in boston at Logan and drove up went right through UNH country. Beautiful area up there. But will never go to Old Orchard Beach again.

Yeah, Old Orchard is not a place I'd spend money on either. NH only has 13 miles of coast, but has some nice beaches, Portsmouth is known for it's restaurants and bars, and the lakes and White Mountains are worth a visit.

[Wildcat1997]

I kinda agree with this tho...right in the middle of a hotbed for talent.It is, but we have a problem in that it's heavily recruited and ACU is never any players' 1st choice. Whenever an FBS schools comes calling for a local player, ACU really doesn't have a chance.

[PurpleStreamers]

Enjoyed reading through this thread and didn't realize how much ACU and SDSU had invested. Certainly Kennesaw is on the rise and has shown a willingness to go for it. Another program that's really beginning to find its footing and has the resources and institutional trajectory to win consistently is Elon - got to think this year was a big eye-opener about what might be possible there.

[Reign of Terrier]

Wofford's been mentioned in this thread, and as much as I'm flattered, let's put full context.

Disclosure: I don't have any inside information about how the athletic program works outside of what's public knowledge.

Anyway, Wofford's endowment is only about $170m and we have minimal resources to pay coaches. I want to say our OC/DC and Coach Ayers make 6 figures, but could easily be wrong on the OC/DC front. We have great facilities with our athletics, which have been long overdue (we have a very nice new Basketball arena, which also helps with Volleyball too). In the last 10 years or so we built the first "athlete/football only" weight room.

Coach Ayers has helped us win, but when he leaves our bread and butter is going to be having accomplished former players coach us. On staff, I want to say that 70% of the coaching staff played for Wofford (with most of them playing under Coach Ayers) and they don't get paid too much. We win with loyalty and commitment to the program; call it the "Wofford Way," I don't know. It sounds cliche, but Wofford can't hope to deviate too much from this model. We don't have the money and if we become a revolving door of coaches looking to make the next step, it's not sustainable.

Basically our program runs on generous donations from alumni (including but not limited to Jerry Richardson) and FBS games. We would turn into PC if we went too long without winning, but I don't think it'll come to that. We had the perfect storm with Mike Ayers, the athletic administration and Jerry Richardson, providing the success, finances and support needed to be included in this conversation. We have probably less than 20,000 living alumni and many of them don't care about football. We will never be a program that depends or anticipates on ticket sales or state funding to be successful. That's not a knock on anyone, it's just that we're dependent on our own success creating enthusiasm among boosters to where they can donate (either to Wofford, the athletic department, etc) to sustain the program.

When I first got in this board 10 years ago, our shtick was that we punch above our weight on the field. That's not true anymore. On the field, we can go blow for blow with anyone. We have the facilities in enthusiasm. Maybe one day we'll win a national title, I don't know. When you look behind the curtain and look at how thin a line there is between success and failure at this level with the kind of school Wofford is and how other similar schools have failed to be consistent, you have to be grateful for what you have.

[JSUSoutherner]

Wofford's been mentioned in this thread, and as much as I'm flattered, let's put full context.

Disclosure: I don't have any inside information about how the athletic program works outside of what's public knowledge.

Anyway, Wofford's endowment is only about $170m and we have minimal resources to pay coaches. I want to say our OC/DC and Coach Ayers make 6 figures, but could easily be wrong on the OC/DC front. We have great facilities with our athletics, which have been long overdue (we have a very nice new Basketball arena, which also helps with Volleyball too). In the last 10 years or so we built the first "athlete/football only" weight room.

Coach Ayers has helped us win, but when he leaves our bread and butter is going to be having accomplished former players coach us. On staff, I want to say that 70% of the coaching staff played for Wofford (with most of them playing under Coach Ayers) and they don't get paid too much. We win with loyalty and commitment to the program; call it the "Wofford Way," I don't know. It sounds cliche, but Wofford can't hope to deviate too much from this model. We don't have the money and if we become a revolving door of coaches looking to make the next step, it's not sustainable.

Basically our program runs on generous donations from alumni (including but not limited to Jerry Richardson) and FBS games. We would turn into PC if we went too long without winning, but I don't think it'll come to that. We had the perfect storm with Mike Ayers, the athletic administration and Jerry Richardson, providing the success, finances and support needed to be included in this conversation. We have probably less than 20,000 living alumni and many of them don't care about football. We will never be a program that depends or anticipates on ticket sales or state funding to be successful. That's not a knock on anyone, it's just that we're dependent on our own success creating enthusiasm among boosters to where they can donate (either to Wofford, the athletic department, etc) to sustain the program.

When I first got in this board 10 years ago, our shtick was that we punch above our weight on the field. That's not true anymore. On the field, we can go blow for blow with anyone. We have the facilities in enthusiasm. Maybe one day we'll win a national title, I don't know. When you look behind the curtain and look at how thin a line there is between success and failure at this level with the kind of school Wofford is and how other similar schools have failed to be consistent, you have to be grateful for what you have.

"Only $170 Million"

[Professor]

The link was started to help me and others get a feel about the programs out there and info that is unknown to us about what they are doing. Some schools can and some can't do much to make their programs a big deal. It is just reality of economics in this day and age. I find it interesting how some of the schools seem to come across as if they are FCS level power five schools. Where does the money come from for big stadiums and tens of millions in improvements while other schools are lucky to have electricity for lights for reading in class. Why can a school like Kennesaw St make a big splash in just its third year of football, while 100 + year old schools can't complete a pass or have a football field with grass on it. Some schools just seem to have it all going in their favor while others can't catch a break. What is the secret to being in the playoffs for 15 straight years when other can play in a championship game one year and a few years later not make the playoffs. What is the secret formula for success and does your school have it.

Student fees. The more students , the more money you have.

[Silenoz]

Wofford's been mentioned in this thread, and as much as I'm flattered, let's put full context.


Which is why I laughed when your name kept popping up while our inclusion gets questioned. We may suck ass, but it ain't from lack of trying. Wofford is almost the polar opposite.

[Daytripper]

It is, but we have a problem in that it's heavily recruited and ACU is never any players' 1st choice. Whenever an FBS schools comes calling for a local player, ACU really doesn't have a chance.

If you win, they will come. Recruit 2 and 3 star players hard and offer them early. You won't get an early commit from any of them because they want to play FBS. But the FBS teams always have to pull offers at the last minute because they offer more than the number of scholarships they have available. If you have laid the groundwork and developed a relationship with them, you will be their fallback. Keeler does this and it works...

https://shsu.247sports.com/Season/2018-Football/Offers

Edit: Also, if they decide to transfer after their first or second year at FBS, you a logical choice because they know you.

[Wildcat1997]

If you win, they will come. Recruit 2 and 3 star players hard and offer them early. You won't get an early commit from any of them because they want to play FBS. But the FBS teams always have to pull offers at the last minute because they offer more than the number of scholarships they have available. If you have laid the groundwork and developed a relationship with them, you will be their fallback. Keeler does this and it works...

https://shsu.247sports.com/Season/2018-Football/Offers

Edit: Also, if they decide to transfer after their first or second year at FBS, you a logical choice because they know you.Dorrel has followed that model this recruiting cycle so we’ll see if it pays off. He’s also going after a lot of JUCOs. wouldn’t be surprised if half of our class were JUCOs.

[Daytripper]

Dorrel has followed that model this recruiting cycle so we’ll see if it pays off. He’s also going after a lot of JUCOs. wouldn’t be surprised if half of our class were JUCOs.

JUCOs are a good way for a new staff to fill holes.. Hope you don't rely on them in the future, though.

[Outsider1]

JUCOs are a good way for a new staff to fill holes.. Hope you don't rely on them in the future, though.

Dorrel wants to build a long term program based on a system of steady flow of players all the way through the system. He used a lot of walk-ons at NWMS, but that will be harder at a higher priced school like ACU. He is finding he will have to use JUCOs a little more until that type of program is built over a couple of years.

[caribbeanhen]

I used to think Delaware was the next BIG MOVER UP. Years ago, trips there to watch Lehigh/Delaware had all the look and feel of Mid Major FBS events. If I remember correctly, a new Athletic Director there made a few bad choices and everything stalled. The Delaware fans were REALLY into it and traveled well, too!

Any real chance the Blue Hens regain all that?

don't think so

[BNATION]

don't think so What if KC went back? xdrunkyx

[Daytripper]

What if KC went back? xdrunkyx

Civil War would ensue among the Blue Hen faithful. I've been on the GoHens site and there is no gray area for those people with regard to Keeler. You love him or you hate him. That's it.

[Serpentor]

Civil War would ensue among the Blue Hen faithful. I've been on the GoHens site and there is no gray area for those people with regard to Keeler. You love him or you hate him. That's it.

K.C. Keeler haters at Delaware during David Brock's tenure:

https://inmymentalmind.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/this-is-fine-meme-dog-denial-520x245.jpg

[ksu_owls]

Enjoyed reading through this thread and didn't realize how much ACU and SDSU had invested. Certainly Kennesaw is on the rise and has shown a willingness to go for it. Another program that's really beginning to find its footing and has the resources and institutional trajectory to win consistently is Elon - got to think this year was a big eye-opener about what might be possible there.

Hey.... appreciate the respect for KSU! We have a long ways to go but I don't know anyone at the school that isn't proud of how things are going currently. I'm excited for us to schedule tougher opponents. Don't get me wrong, going 10-1 in the regular season is fun. I would rather see an 8-3 or 7-4 record with a few decent outings against FBS or top FCS level opponents. I guess that comes in time!

[Twentysix]

I know it's already been mentioned, but I think Kennesaw State is really making a huge push to be a top FCS program or in a few years, a solid G5 FBS program.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed. They seem like they will be an NIU level FBS program soon.

[Reign of Terrier]

"Only $170 Million"

Endowment of Southern Conference schools other than Wofford:

Samford: 272 million
Furman: 650 million
Mercer: 329 million
The Citadel: 245 million
VMI: 383 million


Western Carolina, ETSU and Chattanooga have smaller endowments but they are all state schools.

So yeah. We have the smallest financial support if you measure it by endowment and or state funding (though I'll be honest, I don't 100% know how that stuff works so I could be wrong)

Basically, we need a bigger endowment (may when Jerry Richardson dies it'll be fruitful and multiply) and from what I hear $500m is the magic number for schools our size.

- - - Updated - - -


Which is why I laughed when your name kept popping up while our inclusion gets questioned. We may suck ass, but it ain't from lack of trying. Wofford is almost the polar opposite.

Montana has more titles than us. 'nuff said

[cx500d]

Endowment of Southern Conference schools other than Wofford:

Samford: 272 million
Furman: 650 million
Mercer: 329 million
The Citadel: 245 million
VMI: 383 million


Western Carolina, ETSU and Chattanooga have smaller endowments but they are all state schools.

\

So is The Citadel and VMI

[Terry2889]

Dorrel has followed that model this recruiting cycle so we’ll see if it pays off. He’s also going after a lot of JUCOs. wouldn’t be surprised if half of our class were JUCOs.

Not a good way to build a perennial powerhouse program. What incoming freshman wants to play for a coach that is going to pull the rug out from under him after working his ass off in the program for three years only to have some JUCO take his projected spot?

[cx500d]

Not a good way to build a perennial powerhouse program. What incoming freshman wants to play for a coach that is going to pull the rug out from under him after working his ass off in the program for three years only to have some JUCO take his projected spot?


Works for SHSU...Juco's, FBS Xfers....They've been doing it for a while.

[Reign of Terrier]

So is The Citadel and VMI

But their endowment is still bigger. That was my point.

[Daytripper]

Works for SHSU...Juco's, FBS Xfers....They've been doing it for a while.

Most every major program (except NDSU..."all hail the Bison!") does it.

[UNHWildcat18]

Not a good way to build a perennial powerhouse program. What incoming freshman wants to play for a coach that is going to pull the rug out from under him after working his ass off in the program for three years only to have some JUCO take his projected spot?

ehhh I think an FBS transfer is a lot more insulting than a kid who say didn't get a lot of offers and went to a JUCO for a year to improve and then got FCS offers and took one.

[UNHWildcat18]

Most every major program (except NDSU..."all hail the Bison!") does it.

Even the Bison have had a few juco's and transfers over the last 6 years and before the bison fans hop on the tractors to run me down, I believe that number is probably around 6-8 over 5-6 years

[cx500d]

Most every major program (except NDSU..."all hail the Bison!") does it.


We have some, but not many. Only one I can think of off the top of my head quite frankly is our punter, and I'm not all that enamored of him. Previous punter was way better.

[DFW HOYA]

Anyway, Wofford's endowment is only about $170m and we have minimal resources to pay coaches.

Endowment has next to no impact on a university commitment (or lack thereof) to be competitive in football. Wofford has a larger endowment than North Dakota State ($150M), Central Florida ($146M), or North Texas ($139M) .

[Reign of Terrier]

Endowment has next to no impact on a university commitment (or lack thereof) to be competitive in football. Wofford has a larger endowment than North Dakota State ($150M), Central Florida ($146M), or North Texas ($139M) .

The difference is that Wofford is a private school while the schools you listed are state schools which get state funding. On top of that, Wofford has an enrollment 1/14 the size of the smallest school you listed, so they almost certainly get more revenue from student fees and tuition.

My original point, more lucidly, is that the only thing that can sustain Wofford at this level is continued success and interest in the football program. We have less money than other schools have and we're basically sustained by FBS games and boosters.

Our commitment to being successful is pretty strong, but we won't know how strong until 10 years or so after Ayers retires. He's the only coach we've known in 30 years, and we can't pay coaches (at least right now) as well as other programs have (which is why we're on our 4th DC in 7 years; 2 of them got pillaged by the Sun Belt).

[TennBison]

There were 4400 people in the stands for a home playoff game. That is all you need to know about the ability of our administration to do their job. They can hire a good coach and pay him decently...that's it. There is more to sustaining a long-term successful program than that.
Attendance is one thing, but how do most schools out their do with selling merchandise? This is a one sided observation, but NDSU seems to be off the charts. The Fargo area and the state is flooded with it, some days it seems like 25% of the people I see around town have some NDSU gear on. I wear my NDSU stuff when we go on vacation, went to Kauai for 3 weeks just 2 months ago, I talked with quite a few people while there that saw my shirts/hats and mentioned about seeing the Bison on TV and such. But the sale of team gear is for sure a plus, I can't even guess what kind of money NDSU makes from it. How about your schools?

[TennBison]

Wofford's been mentioned in this thread, and as much as I'm flattered, let's put full context.

Disclosure: I don't have any inside information about how the athletic program works outside of what's public knowledge.

Anyway, Wofford's endowment is only about $170m and we have minimal resources to pay coaches. I want to say our OC/DC and Coach Ayers make 6 figures, but could easily be wrong on the OC/DC front. We have great facilities with our athletics, which have been long overdue (we have a very nice new Basketball arena, which also helps with Volleyball too). In the last 10 years or so we built the first "athlete/football only" weight room.

Coach Ayers has helped us win, but when he leaves our bread and butter is going to be having accomplished former players coach us. On staff, I want to say that 70% of the coaching staff played for Wofford (with most of them playing under Coach Ayers) and they don't get paid too much. We win with loyalty and commitment to the program; call it the "Wofford Way," I don't know. It sounds cliche, but Wofford can't hope to deviate too much from this model. We don't have the money and if we become a revolving door of coaches looking to make the next step, it's not sustainable.

Basically our program runs on generous donations from alumni (including but not limited to Jerry Richardson) and FBS games. We would turn into PC if we went too long without winning, but I don't think it'll come to that. We had the perfect storm with Mike Ayers, the athletic administration and Jerry Richardson, providing the success, finances and support needed to be included in this conversation. We have probably less than 20,000 living alumni and many of them don't care about football. We will never be a program that depends or anticipates on ticket sales or state funding to be successful. That's not a knock on anyone, it's just that we're dependent on our own success creating enthusiasm among boosters to where they can donate (either to Wofford, the athletic department, etc) to sustain the program.

When I first got in this board 10 years ago, our shtick was that we punch above our weight on the field. That's not true anymore. On the field, we can go blow for blow with anyone. We have the facilities in enthusiasm. Maybe one day we'll win a national title, I don't know. When you look behind the curtain and look at how thin a line there is between success and failure at this level with the kind of school Wofford is and how other similar schools have failed to be consistent, you have to be grateful for what you have.
Wofford does not seem to have big money like you mentioned, or a big stadium if I am correct. Not all teams need to have these things to be advancing their teams. If your a small school you would expect money to be in shorter supply, and a smaller stadium as well because of it. You can be a up and coming or top of the hill team by working with what your school is able to allocate to sports and making the most of it. If you only have a 10k set stadium but sell 9k in tickets, your doing well vs a school with a 15 k seat stadium that only sells 6k. Alumni and student support should be considered in this thread. One important thing to remember is that the education of these student athletes is way more important than the sports they play. Some schools like NDSU are just not going to always get a great football player, based on the education that kid wants to get. Face it, if the kid wants to be a pilot they are going to go to UND no matter how hard NDSU recruits them.

[cx500d]

Face it, if the kid wants to be a pilot they are going to go to UND no matter how hard NDSU recruits them.


Well, I managed to do pretty well without going to UND....I got paid for my flight training

[Outsider1]

Not a good way to build a perennial powerhouse program. What incoming freshman wants to play for a coach that is going to pull the rug out from under him after working his ass off in the program for three years only to have some JUCO take his projected spot?

I think most of us would be more than happy to have a steady stream of incoming classes of recruits that can successfully work their way through the system; start to finish. It will take a couple of years to get there, especially when some players don't like the new system being implemented. Bottom line for us is you work harder and perform better, you will play more.

[TennBison]

Not a good way to build a perennial powerhouse program. What incoming freshman wants to play for a coach that is going to pull the rug out from under him after working his ass off in the program for three years only to have some JUCO take his projected spot?
I agree, if you want to build a sense of teamwork and hard work pays off you need to build and train the team from the ground up. Redshirt the freshmen, bring them up in the team culture, teach them their positions and watch them grow into football players. I am not against taking in a player of two here or there, just not a fan of basing the team on it, and pulling the rug out from a guy who has dedicated time into the program.

[Outsider1]

Right now we have been redshirting our recruits as much as all possible and not use them too much, trying to build that system while we balance things out with transfers. This season was Dorrel's first recruiting class and he came in late in December after another late post season with his previous school. Most of us are pretty anxious to see what this season of recruiting brings, although we know it will still be balanced with both.

[Wildcat1997]

I think Dorrel realized that the team needed more college ready players who can appear in a game the moment they step on campus. We took on a lot of freshman last cycle and most redshirted so we need more mature, experienced players. No matter how talented any of Dorrels recruits are, they are still incredibly young.

[caribbeanhen]

What if KC went back? xdrunkyx

I bet he want''s too, how many years can a Delaware boy take down in Huntsville

KC was railroaded out of town by Pat Harker over petty jealously if you ask me

My personnel opinion of KC is positive although everyone knows he can't coach a lick, but he's smart enough to know it's more about talent and some coaches don't get that

[Thumper 76]

Most every major program (except NDSU..."all hail the Bison!") does it.

I know SDSU doesn’t have very many either....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Attendance is one thing, but how do most schools out their do with selling merchandise? This is a one sided observation, but NDSU seems to be off the charts. The Fargo area and the state is flooded with it, some days it seems like 25% of the people I see around town have some NDSU gear on. I wear my NDSU stuff when we go on vacation, went to Kauai for 3 weeks just 2 months ago, I talked with quite a few people while there that saw my shirts/hats and mentioned about seeing the Bison on TV and such. But the sale of team gear is for sure a plus, I can't even guess what kind of money NDSU makes from it. How about your schools?


I wear Bison gear a lot and get "go Bison" just about anywhere I go in the US.

[Original_Siouxperfan]

Attendance is one thing, but how do most schools out their do with selling merchandise? This is a one sided observation, but NDSU seems to be off the charts. The Fargo area and the state is flooded with it, some days it seems like 25% of the people I see around town have some NDSU gear on. I wear my NDSU stuff when we go on vacation, went to Kauai for 3 weeks just 2 months ago, I talked with quite a few people while there that saw my shirts/hats and mentioned about seeing the Bison on TV and such. But the sale of team gear is for sure a plus, I can't even guess what kind of money NDSU makes from it. How about your schools?

This is a very interesting question. This can be somewhat estimated by the NCAA revenue information linked earlier in this thread. Below is a comparison of the seven public schools listed in post #7 and UND for comparison. The estimated total sales information is based on the regular royalty rate for each school. Some schools have alternative rates; e.g. NDSU charges 12%, but charges 15% for the Heritage Collection.

1. Montana (14% royalty) $2,310,287 in licensing revenue equals approximately $16.5 million in total merchandise sales
2. NDSU (12%) $3,327,445 in licensing revenue equals approximately $27.7 million in total merchandise sales
3. James Madison (12%) $3,298,950 in licensing revenue equals approximately $27.5 million in total merchandise sales
4. SDSU (10%) $3,481,901 in licensing revenue equals approximately $34.8 million in total merchandise sales
5. Jacksonville State (12%) $1,033,736 in licensing revenue equals approximately $8.6 million in total merchandise sales
6. Montana State (12%) $2,208,314 in licensing revenue equals approximately $18.4 million in total merchandise sales
7. Kennesaw State (12%) $1,862,134 in licensing revenue equals approximately $15.5 million in total merchandise sales

UND (10%) $3,001,227 in licensing revenue equals approximately $30.0 million in total merchandise sales

[clenz]

This is a very interesting question. This can be somewhat estimated by the NCAA revenue information linked earlier in this thread. Below is a comparison of the seven public schools listed in post #7 and UND for comparison. The estimated total sales information is based on the regular royalty rate for each school. Some schools have alternative rates; e.g. NDSU charges 12%, but charges 15% for the Heritage Collection.

1. Montana (14% royalty) $2,310,287 in licensing revenue equals approximately $16.5 million in total merchandise sales
2. NDSU (12%) $3,327,445 in licensing revenue equals approximately $27.7 million in total merchandise sales
3. James Madison (12%) $3,298,950 in licensing revenue equals approximately $27.5 million in total merchandise sales
4. SDSU (10%) $3,481,901 in licensing revenue equals approximately $34.8 million in total merchandise sales
5. Jacksonville State (12%) $1,033,736 in licensing revenue equals approximately $8.6 million in total merchandise sales
6. Montana State (12%) $2,208,314 in licensing revenue equals approximately $18.4 million in total merchandise sales
7. Kennesaw State (12%) $1,862,134 in licensing revenue equals approximately $15.5 million in total merchandise sales

UND (10%) $3,001,227 in licensing revenue equals approximately $30.0 million in total merchandise sales
That column is for more than merch sales, it's for all forms of licencing and rights I believe

FWIW, to add UNI to it using your totals

$3,157,619 in licencing revenue equals approximately $27.1m in total merchandise sales

[Original_Siouxperfan]

That column is for more than merch sales, it's for all forms of licencing and rights I believe

FWIW, to add UNI to it using your totals

$3,157,619 in licencing revenue equals approximately $27.1m in total merchandise sales

It is. These estimates aren't perfect, but they give a better representation to the amount of support to a school than "we sell a lot of shirts."

[Reign of Terrier]

I imagine Wofford's merch sales is itsy bitsy compared to those numbers. Like, crazy small.

[Outsider1]

Royalties and merchandise sales definitely help schools and programs. They are hard for small private schools though where those who never attended don't really have any desire to buy merchandise. Since ACU built its new facilities we have seen more merchandise in the two local Walmarts, but beyond the town of Abilene you just won't see it. Compare that to Texas A&M, UT, and Tech gear being all over the place. I would bet other FCS schools have similar situations as I don't see SFA, SHSU, Prairie Vew and any other merchandise here anywhere. It does help revenue some though.

[Outsider1]

I imagine Wofford's merch sales is itsy bitsy compared to those numbers. Like, crazy small.

I think ACU and Wofford would be very comparable.

[ST_Lawson]

That column is for more than merch sales, it's for all forms of licencing and rights I believe

FWIW, to add UNI to it using your totals

$3,157,619 in licencing revenue equals approximately $27.1m in total merchandise sales

Where are you finding the total merchandise sales number listed?
I'm trying to find our numbers, and I've got $1,357,000 for Rights/Licensing, but not seeing a total merch sales column (or is that data from elsewhere).

[clenz]

Where are you finding the total merchandise sales number listed?
I'm trying to find our numbers, and I've got $1,357,000 for Rights/Licensing, but not seeing a total merch sales column (or is that data from elsewhere).
That's the total that they used, which is why I needed to point out that is for all rights/licencing and not just merchandise.

To use UNI's number, as an example.

$3.1+m is 12% of roughly 27.1m. To generate 27.1m in licencing of merchandise there would need to be 1,355,000 t-shirts sold PER YEAR at $20 a piece. That sure as **** isn't happening. Let's pretend out of all of the items sold the average price is $50 per item (also extremely far from true) that is still over a half million items every single year.

I just....the more I think about it the less I think that is good math to use to compare schools. Though I guess it's the same math for all schools so maybe it works?

[Original_Siouxperfan]

Where are you finding the total merchandise sales number listed?
I'm trying to find our numbers, and I've got $1,357,000 for Rights/Licensing, but not seeing a total merch sales column (or is that data from elsewhere).

This is just an estimated number. As Clenz pointed out, Western's $1.357 million number includes things other than merchandise such as media revenue; but let's be honest, media revenue isn't big for any FCS school.

Based on Western's 10% royal rate, their total sales number is 10 times the amount or $13.6 million.

[ST_Lawson]

That's the total that they used, which is why I needed to point out that is for all rights/licencing and not just merchandise.

To use UNI's number, as an example.

$3.1+m is 12% of roughly 27.1m. To generate 27.1m in licencing of merchandise there would need to be 1,355,000 t-shirts sold PER YEAR at $20 a piece. That sure as **** isn't happening. Let's pretend out of all of the items sold the average price is $50 per item (also extremely far from true) that is still over a half million items every single year.

I just....the more I think about it the less I think that is good math to use to compare schools. Though I guess it's the same math for all schools so maybe it works?

Right, but I'm just curious where that 27.1m number comes from. Is that a number that UNI puts out themselves, or is it listed somewhere else?

[Original_Siouxperfan]

That's the total that they used, which is why I needed to point out that is for all rights/licencing and not just merchandise.

To use UNI's number, as an example.

$3.1+m is 12% of roughly 27.1m. To generate 27.1m in licencing of merchandise there would need to be 1,355,000 t-shirts sold PER YEAR at $20 a piece. That sure as **** isn't happening. Let's pretend out of all of the items sold the average price is $50 per item (also extremely far from true) that is still over a half million items every single year.

I just....the more I think about it the less I think that is good math to use to compare schools. Though I guess it's the same math for all schools so maybe it works?

Yea, but this number isn't just t-shirts. Look at the amount of items available on Fanatics. Some are fairly expensive, and someone has to be buying them, or else they wouldn't be offered. About fifteen years ago I was corporate controller for a distributor that "dabbled" in NCAA merchandise. We produced licensed wrapping paper and sold numerous other stupid licensed merchandise such as ducks, etc.

You probably know or have seen stories of individuals that have decked out their homes with school-related merchandise, most of this stuff wasn't cheap.

[Original_Siouxperfan]

Right, but I'm just curious where that 27.1m number comes from. Is that a number that UNI puts out themselves, or is it listed somewhere else?

ST_Lawson,

The $27.1m is only an estimate based on the NCAA's licensing revenue amount. Per Clenz, UNI has $3.1m in licensing revenue. This number is a percentage of total sales. Clenz used a 12% royalty factor to get $27.1m in total sales ($27.1m x 12% = $3.1m)