FCS Playoff "Conference Championships"

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Stony Brook/JMU, Wofford/Furman, SUU/Weber, UNI/SDSU are conference games (and had Nicholls held on to beat South Dakota, you could have added SHSU/Nicholls to the mix of conference games). Some are rematches, others are matchups created by the fact that unbalanced schedules meant they didn't play each other in the regular season.

Three of these could be considered "championship games". The Furman/Wofford game will be the highest remaining team in the playoffs. Same with SUU/Weber, and JMU/Stony Brook will be assuming UNH loses to UCA.

How do people feel about "conference championships" in the second round of the playoffs? Are they superior to a more intersectional matchup? Do they give the games extra juice?

[Professor Chaos]

Don't like 'em. IMO the playoffs are at their best when new teams from other conferences face each other rather than rehashing conference games (even if they're conference opponents that didn't play each other this year like SBU and JMU).

[BEAR]

Well when you get down to 16 teams and one or two conferences have 4 or 5 teams in the playoffs, eventually you will have a high number of rematches. Gets worse when there are only 8 teams left. xlolx

I wonder if it would be better if the committee rotated teams after the first round to avoid the matchups. Would make it more interesting..

[ElCid]

Yeah the expanded field and regionalization have created this. Unintended consequence. Need to either make field smaller or drop regionalization a bit. It happens regardless of conf size. BS, CAA are big and it happens. SOCON is smaller and it still happens. I say screw the regionalization. Keep the 8 seeds, put the names of the other 16 teams in a hat and pick them two at a time for the first round. High bidder hosts. I like the unknown factor. That would add some spice to the whole process. If that first game is a rematch, so be it.

[PaladinFan]

Yeah the expanded field and regionalization have created this. Unintended consequence. Need to either make field smaller or drop regionalization a bit. It happens regardless of conf size. BS, CAA are big and it happens. SOCON is smaller and it still happens. I say screw the regionalization. Keep the 8 seeds, put the names of the other 16 teams in a hat and pick them two at a time for the first round. High bidder hosts. I like the unknown factor. That would add some spice to the whole process. If that first game is a rematch, so be it.

We talked about it for a while, but many of us assumed that if Furman made the post season, they would likely play Elon then Wofford. I mean, we guessed at that matchup weeks ago.

[ElCid]

We talked about it for a while, but many of us assumed that if Furman made the post season, they would likely play Elon then Wofford. I mean, we guessed at that matchup weeks ago.

In the current committee thinking, it was a no brainer. Still don't like it.

[PaladinFan]

In the current committee thinking, it was a no brainer. Still don't like it.

I think rematches are unavoidable. I am not in favor of the rationalization though, especially insofar as it seems to hurt some conferences and help others. The SoCon consistently has to cannibalize itself by the second round. The CAA generally benefits from seeing teams out of the NEC or Patriot League, which rarely pose the most intimidating first round matchups.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I remember a Furman/App State matchup in the semifinals during App State's first national championship, and at the time it felt that then was the appropriate time to have the rematch because both sides had won some tough games to get to that point. For some reason, it feels like the second round is too early.

Maybe something like this could happen:

Round 1 - bid for home game, regionalize, 8 seeded teams get byes
Round 2 - seed 8 remaining teams, 1 plays 16, 2 plays 15, etc.

That way you'd get more interesting matchups, and if a rematch happens, so be it. But you'd have to possibly fly a few more teams, and the attendance of those games would be worse than a Furman/Wofford rematch for example.

[SactoHornetFan]

I think rematches are unavoidable. I am not in favor of the rationalization though, especially insofar as it seems to hurt some conferences and help others. The SoCon consistently has to cannibalize itself by the second round. The CAA generally benefits from seeing teams out of the NEC or Patriot League, which rarely pose the most intimidating first round matchups.

Well the Big Sky will cannibalize itself this weekend with one remaining team left standing once the game is played. I agree the regionalization is a joke.

[Reign of Terrier]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the Socon has had 4 playoff rematches in the past ~12 years. 3 of them involved Wofford. Two of them were before the quarterfinals.

Look, if you're a conference filled with good teams, it's just a reality that there will be rematches. What irks me is that the playoffs are basically our experiment for sizing up comparable conferences (I had a whole bit in another thread). It's naturally going to favor the conferences with more teams in the field. Why? Because every team is good now. No one remembers the scores of the games, so much as they remember how many teams got however far, and it's just a matter of probability that more teams from a decent conference will advance.

Then, next year, when we're looking at ranking teams, most people go back to the playoff bracket and use that as the baseline for further rankings. And when the playoffs committee meets, what do they look at? Different polls using that baseline. The logic is viciously circular, but not unreasonable, given the system we have.

I'm coming closer to the position that we should just seed everyone. Don't they already do that in division II and III?

[BEAR]

I just like the fact that next week there will be 8 teams left...and two of them will likely be SLC teams. Don't see that very often. xlolx

[caribbeanhen]

Don't like 'em. IMO the playoffs are at their best when new teams from other conferences face each other rather than rehashing conference games (even if they're conference opponents that didn't play each other this year like SBU and JMU).

how about this slate of games for Saturday

Furman st Stony Brook

San Diego at Southern Utah

New Hampshire at Central Arkansas (good OOC match we actually have)

Weber State at South Dakota State

Northern Iowa at Sam Houston State

New Hampshire at Jacksonville State

South Dakota at JMU

Kennesaw at North Dakota State

[BEAR]

how about this slate of games for Saturday

Furman st Stony Brook

San Diego at Southern Utah

New Hampshire at Central Arkansas (good OOC match we actually have)

Weber State at South Dakota State

Northern Iowa at Sam Houston State

New Hampshire at Jacksonville State

South Dakota at JMU

Kennesaw at North Dakota State

New Hampshire will be busy this weekend in that scenario...

[ElCid]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the Socon has had 4 playoff rematches in the past ~12 years. 3 of them involved Wofford. Two of them were before the quarterfinals.

Look, if you're a conference filled with good teams, it's just a reality that there will be rematches. What irks me is that the playoffs are basically our experiment for sizing up comparable conferences (I had a whole bit in another thread). It's naturally going to favor the conferences with more teams in the field. Why? Because every team is good now. No one remembers the scores of the games, so much as they remember how many teams got however far, and it's just a matter of probability that more teams from a decent conference will advance.

Then, next year, when we're looking at ranking teams, most people go back to the playoff bracket and use that as the baseline for further rankings. And when the playoffs committee meets, what do they look at? Different polls using that baseline. The logic is viciously circular, but not unreasonable, given the system we have.

I'm coming closer to the position that we should just seed everyone. Don't they already do that in division II and III?

+1000

[Lehigh Football Nation]

New Hampshire will be busy this weekend in that scenario...

Rumor has it that they also played Lafayette and CCSU last weekend, so two games the same week isn't unheard of for them... xlolx

[caribbeanhen]

New Hampshire will be busy this weekend in that scenario...


whoops, must of been Marty...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If you seed 1-24 you will be flying a lot of teams to what could be some very small venues (ex. what if NAU was flown to CCSU, capacity: 5500 fans)? However, the way I had it - bid for 1st round, then reseed 9-16, it's not too different. All the 1-8 seeds would host anyway, but you'd get different matchups. Added cost: perhaps a few more 2nd round flights. But you keep cost-contained 1st round games.

[Professor Chaos]

They could still save their money without seeding everyone. Just make the tiniest little tweak to the rulebook by changing the part where it says:

"Conference rematches will not be allowed if it is both team's first game of the championship..."

To:

"Conference rematches will not be allowed if it is either team's first game of the championship..."

Like someone said earlier, by the time you get to the quarters there's really no avoiding rematches if you have conferences with 3+ teams in the field and those teams keep advancing. IMO, it would make it so much better if the bracket was built so no rematch (within a conference or out of conference) is possible until the quarterfinals at the earliest and all they'd have to do is change that one little word in the handbook.

[FUBeAR]

New Hampshire will be busy this weekend in that scenario...

...and Wofford would either be elated at their 2nd bye week giving them a pass to the quarterfinals OR they would be very upset about being eliminated without playing a playoff game.

[Reign of Terrier]

how about this slate of games for Saturday

Furman st Stony Brook

San Diego at Southern Utah

New Hampshire at Central Arkansas (good OOC match we actually have)

Weber State at South Dakota State

Northern Iowa at Sam Houston State

New Hampshire at Jacksonville State

South Dakota at JMU

Kennesaw at North Dakota State

Only two problems with this:

1) New Hampshire can't play two games at once, let alone in two different states

2) Wofford wouldn't appreciate being eliminated as a 7 seed without playing a game

[FUGameBreaker]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the Socon has had 4 playoff rematches in the past ~12 years. 3 of them involved Wofford. Two of them were before the quarterfinals.

Look, if you're a conference filled with good teams, it's just a reality that there will be rematches. What irks me is that the playoffs are basically our experiment for sizing up comparable conferences (I had a whole bit in another thread). It's naturally going to favor the conferences with more teams in the field. Why? Because every team is good now. No one remembers the scores of the games, so much as they remember how many teams got however far, and it's just a matter of probability that more teams from a decent conference will advance.

Then, next year, when we're looking at ranking teams, most people go back to the playoff bracket and use that as the baseline for further rankings. And when the playoffs committee meets, what do they look at? Different polls using that baseline. The logic is viciously circular, but not unreasonable, given the system we have.

I'm coming closer to the position that we should just seed everyone. Don't they already do that in division II and III?



Furman has played Western Carolina, Marshall (twice), Georgia Southern (semis) and App St. (semis) all in the playoffs as conference rematches over the course of time that playoffs have existed, now playing Wofford, I like it as a fan honestly

[Reign of Terrier]

Furman has played Western Carolina, Marshall, Georgia Southern and App St. all in the playoffs before

They never played Western Carolina, GSU or App State before the semifinals. They played Marshall in the quarterfinals twice. It's worth noting that none of those games took place in a field of 22/24. It's also happened to Wofford two years straight, whereas the examples you're citing didn't happen more than twice in 6 years

Wofford will now play the Citadel and Furman in the field of 16 in back-to-back years. A solid 25% of our first round games have been against Socon competition. Furman? This is the first time.

Give it a few years, and cyclical Wofford/Citadel/even Mercer success alongside your team, and you'll be just as annoyed as I am.

The point isn't "Wofford's getting shat on" it's "this system ****s on a lot of teams"

[FUGameBreaker]

They never played Western Carolina, GSU or App State before the semifinals. They played Marshall in the quarterfinals twice. It's worth noting that none of those games took place in a field of 22/24. It's also happened to Wofford two years straight, whereas the examples you're citing didn't happen more than twice in 6 years

Wofford will now play the Citadel and Furman in the field of 16 in back-to-back years. A solid 25% of our first round games have been against Socon competition. Furman? This is the first time.

Give it a few years, and cyclical Wofford/Citadel/even Mercer success alongside your team, and you'll be just as annoyed as I am.

The point isn't "Wofford's getting shat on" it's "this system ****s on a lot of teams"



Not the point I was trying to make exactly, I edited my post just after making it to try and be a little more specific, my bad dude.

Nevertheless I like it no matter when it occurs, I don't care who we have to beat in the playoff field, you gotta beat somebody, might as well be a game I can travel to if at all possible, or if we are hosting a game that brings a good visiting crowd for the atmosphere if at all possible

[caribbeanhen]

Only two problems with this:

1) New Hampshire can't play two games at once, let alone in two different states

2) Wofford wouldn't appreciate being eliminated as a 7 seed without playing a game


all true, how do you feel about having to play a SoCo rival in your first playoff round? who would you like to see come?

[Reign of Terrier]

all true, how do you feel about having to play a SoCo rival in your first playoff round? who would you like to see come?

If you look at my posts in this thread, I hate it:D

Having said that, I care more about the "where" of playoff games than the who. If the game is played at home, for a first round game I'd prefer anyone but a southern conference opponent, just because it doesn't help the conference and transitively, my team. If it's an away game, I'd prefer it to be no west of Louisiana/Arkansas and no North of Virginia.

[walliver]

I wouldn't call these games "conference championships" since for the smaller conferences, like the SoCon, those are decided on the field where everybody plays everybody else. Even though Wofford was the last man standing last year, El Cid was still the conference champion (although Wofford was clearly the State of South Carolina Champion). Rematches are inevitable if you play in a decent conference, but regionalization has pushed these games too early.

[Gangtackle11]

It’s great to dream for change, but when most venues are showing crowds of 5-8k fans there will be nothing more than the current system. $$$ follows $$$ & there isn’t any to be made at this level.

[caribbeanhen]

If you look at my posts in this thread, I hate it:D

Having said that, I care more about the "where" of playoff games than the who. If the game is played at home, for a first round game I'd prefer anyone but a southern conference opponent, just because it doesn't help the conference and transitively, my team. If it's an away game, I'd prefer it to be no west of Louisiana/Arkansas and no North of Virginia.

yes read and post vice post and read always works better..

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

When the NCAA seeded all teams, they just manipulated the seeds to get the bus games they needed. Despite whatever warts the FCS Tournament has, it's still better than FBS, D-II and D-III.

[PaladinFan]

I think the way to solve it is to have fewer teams in the post season and get rid of some of the autobids. A 24 team model is sort of ridiculous.

Fewer expenses, more quality teams, less likelihood of intraconference matchups before the semi finals.

And look, I realize that hurts a lot of these "everyone gets a trophy" playoff participants (Furman included). It incentivizes you to win your conference. If there's a good team in your conference you can't seem to beat, get better.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It’s great to dream for change, but when most venues are showing crowds of 5-8k fans there will be nothing more than the current system. $$$ follows $$$ & there isn’t any to be made at this level.

We won't know if fans would respond to something better because many things haven't really been tried. We don't know if, say, Fox would do a better job with the FCS Playoffs (promoting, offering money to the athletic departments of the trams) because they hasn't been bidding on the property that is the FCS Playoffs and there hasn't been enough selling on the fact that 1) the FCS Playoffs are the best, fairest way to determine a football champion, and 2) the FCS plays a brand of football that people should care about nationally.

It has zero to do with 5k-8k crowds on a week's notice at Thanksgiving and everything to do with complacency and not caring enough about the product.

[Gangtackle11]

We won't know if fans would respond to something better because many things haven't really been tried. We don't know if, say, Fox would do a better job with the FCS Playoffs (promoting, offering money to the athletic departments of the trams) because they hasn't been bidding on the property that is the FCS Playoffs and there hasn't been enough selling on the fact that 1) the FCS Playoffs are the best, fairest way to determine a football champion, and 2) the FCS plays a brand of football that people should care about nationally.

It has zero to do with 5k-8k crowds on a week's notice at Thanksgiving and everything to do with complacency and not caring enough about the product.

5k-8k fans goes hand in hand with complacency actually apathy. xpeacex

[Lehigh Football Nation]

5k-8k fans goes hand in hand with complacency actually apathy. xpeacex

The Bahamas Bowl had an attendance of 13k "announced" fans with ESPN promoting the bowl and weeks of lead-in. If FOX had the playoffs, and had been pumping it for months and put the best 1st round game on FS1, could they get 10k, 13k? I think so. It would have to be the right venue and the right matchup (think Western Illinois/Weber St), but I think so.

[katss07]

I actually think the current model works fine. Regionalization and Bus trip crap aside, a 24 team playoff works. Some years, like this year with Lehigh, make the auto bid seem stupid. But look at San Diego. Would they be a playoff team if it wasn’t for the auto bid? Probably not. There are good cases and bad cases. The point of our playoffs is to showcase the best 24 FCS teams and let them play. A 24 team field accomplishes that much better than a 16 or 14 team field.

Playoff attendance in round one is bad. There are some bright spots, such as Weber State or Nicholls this weekend, but most of the time a first round game will attract 4k people. Not horrible considering it is Thanksgiving weekend. After round one though, things are fine. In places like Jacksonville or JMU or Fargo or SDSU, the crowds will be 12,000+. I would be very surprised if Saturday’s playoff game in Huntsville gets less than 10,000 people. The further you go, the bigger the crowds. No way around the mess in the first round but after that its clear.

Of course it is all about money, but I think ESPN does a decent job. I think they should stagger the games, but thats not a big issue IMO. Its not a problem for me this weekend, as I will be at SHSU vs USD. I would like to see a first round game and a couple of second round games get broadcasted on ESPNU or ESPN2. I think it is awesome that all the quarterfinal games are televised, as well as the semis and the finals. Aside from regionalization, I love the FCS playoff format.

[CockyGeek]

Just beat all the teams until they aren't playoff eligible. Problem solved! 😎

[Sycamore62]

sorry if this has been said, i didnt have time to read the whole thread. I think they should rank all the teams 1-24. I understand cost savings in the 1st round maybe 2nd round so maybe you just get a "sorry this is how it is". At some point they should shuffle the teams back to seeding like 1 vs 22(who had upsets) and 8 vs 9 because they went chalk