Patriot League 2018 - way way way to early

[Roll 'gate]

No better time to start the way way way too early talk and predictions about next year right now.

I'm curious what peoples thoughts on next years conference will look like and how they think it will shake out. I know personally the Raider's are excited for what's possibly to come in the sunny tundra ... Curious how everyone else thinks the league will shake out next year.

Colgate - Returns a vast majority on both sides of the ball. Love the quarterback, offensive line, and backfield situation.
lehigh - Loses two key weapons at wide receiver. Return the best running back in PL though which should take pressure off of a QB who makes questionable decisions as is. If defense tightens up they should at least be in the talk around the top of the league.
Lafayette - That defense loses a bunch of contributors on the d-line but should still be a relatively stingy group. Can the offense figure it out? Should be able to feast on lower end of PL if they can figure out how to put a couple points on the board.
Fordham - Losing the experience they will at QB and RB hurts a ton. Their defense was suspect this year and I'm not sure what they lose to graduation. Supposedly they had a very tough year injury wise. I also think rest of league is catching up with the scholarship situation. Not sure Fordham will be able to "feast" as it used to in coming years.
Bucknell - A team that didn't show much fight towards the end of the year. Could be the biggest ? next year as to what type of team comes out of Lewisburg on Saturdays.
Holy Cross - New coach, no PP. A team that had lofty expectations at beginning of year after a couple games that quickly were extinguished. A bottom half of the league type team that might surprise one of two teams if they don't come ready to play, but doubt they will be contenders.
Georgetown - I don't think much needs to be said here.

[van]

Lehigh losses two stud receivers as noted and 3 starting OL as well on O, several underclass OL got starts this year and held their own so I think the OL will reload OK, hard to say on the receivers as they did not get a lot of playing time but Christiano should be back from injury and Kelsey is eligible for a 5th year if he chooses, Coaches were high on Bibbens and Porto returns from a great FR year, all in all expect the O to be very strong again next year

on D we lose Cavenas who is a beast on the DL and will be sorely missed, Jones is a stand out senior DB but could get a medical 5th also, other than those 2 and some DL that rotated the D was pretty young this year and playing in a new scheme, so there is some reason to be optimistic about next years D being improved, at least improved from the first half of this year

[ColgateTD]

No better time to start the way way way too early talk and predictions about next year right now.

I'm curious what peoples thoughts on next years conference will look like and how they think it will shake out. I know personally the Raider's are excited for what's possibly to come in the sunny tundra ... Curious how everyone else thinks the league will shake out next year.

Colgate - Returns a vast majority on both sides of the ball. Love the quarterback, offensive line, and backfield situation.
lehigh - Loses two key weapons at wide receiver. Return the best running back in PL though which should take pressure off of a QB who makes questionable decisions as is. If defense tightens up they should at least be in the talk around the top of the league.
Lafayette - That defense loses a bunch of contributors on the d-line but should still be a relatively stingy group. Can the offense figure it out? Should be able to feast on lower end of PL if they can figure out how to put a couple points on the board.
Fordham - Losing the experience they will at QB and RB hurts a ton. Their defense was suspect this year and I'm not sure what they lose to graduation. Supposedly they had a very tough year injury wise. I also think rest of league is catching up with the scholarship situation. Not sure Fordham will be able to "feast" as it used to in coming years.
Bucknell - A team that didn't show much fight towards the end of the year. Could be the biggest ? next year as to what type of team comes out of Lewisburg on Saturdays.
Holy Cross - New coach, no PP. A team that had lofty expectations at beginning of year after a couple games that quickly were extinguished. A bottom half of the league type team that might surprise one of two teams if they don't come ready to play, but doubt they will be contenders.
Georgetown - I don't think much needs to be said here.

Once again Colgate and Lehigh will dominate, but I see Bucknell making a big jump to 3rd place. The rest of the teams you can shake up in a bag; don't know what order they will come out...

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Once again Colgate and Lehigh will dominate, but I see Bucknell making a big jump to 3rd place. The rest of the teams you can shake up in a bag; don't know what order they will come out...

Bucknell loses Abdullah on D and DeFloria at RB. They still don't have a quarterback or the look of a program that's ready to take the next step.

On paper it's hard not to see the league being pretty bad again. Holy Cross will be going through a transition phase. Fordham loses Edmonds and Anderson and Breiner's status still seems a bit uncertain. Lafayette has to be better on offense but the defense takes quite a few hits. It will be 9 years since their last winning season when next year kicks off! So Lafayette still has to get over the hump. Georgetown seems hopeless. Colgate will be good but until they win some meaningful OOC games their margin for error is extremely small. Like Lehigh, the Raiders graduate several key players (Holland, Afriyie, Paulish). Until there's major changes on defense Lehigh's ceiling will only be so high. Good PL program, irrelevant nationally....

No preseason Top 25 team and no real threat on the national stage once again in 2018.

[FUGameBreaker]

See you down in Greenville in 2018 Colgate, Cheers!

[LehighU11]

See you down in Greenville in 2018 Colgate, Cheers!
I wish Lehigh could get Furman or Wofford on our schedule. Instead, our OOC slate will continue to stick to north of the Mason-Dixon line and east of the Appalachians. JMU and Liberty were nice home and home series somewhat recently.

[FUGameBreaker]

I wish Lehigh could get Furman or Wofford on our schedule. Instead, our OOC slate will continue to stick to north of the Mason-Dixon line and east of the Appalachians. JMU and Liberty were nice home and home series somewhat recently.


I agree, would love a home and home with Lehigh for sure!

[Roll 'gate]

I wish Lehigh could get Furman or Wofford on our schedule. Instead, our OOC slate will continue to stick to north of the Mason-Dixon line and east of the Appalachians. JMU and Liberty were nice home and home series somewhat recently.

What holds you guys back?

[RichH2]

PL should be marginally better with the last 2 yrs classes moving up with experience.
Colgate should be the favorite returning skills and a solid core.
Lehigh in the mix for sure. WRs take a huge hit losing Pelletier and Casey. Christiano and Portoreal a solid starting point tho. OL loses 3 but with a lot of experienced lettermen. It will be fine. RBs with Brags, Micco and Chadbourn ( not to mention 3* verbal) will be fine.
D will at the very least be very experienced at 2ndary and LB. Caveness a big hit but as with OL a lot of underclassmen got experience and system will no longer be new.
Bucknell a puzzle . Could push into contention but dont sed a QB yet. There may be little competitipn for the 3rd spot from the rest.
Fordham loses their w best O weapons from a bad team.OL and D need work.
Lafayette in 2nd year of Garrett likely will be better. They lose a lot from a stellar D. O is under construction in need of an OL
Holy Cross will be in year 1 of a new coach. Cupboard is mot bare but a new QB is only 1 spot that needs filling or improvement.
Georgetown will remain as is with an excellent starting D and a few good players on O.

[Gater]

For Colgate, Holland will be back next year as will everyone who ran the ball. Everyone who threw the ball will be back. The top six receivers will be back. 23 of the top 26 tacklers will be back (the 5th, 11th, and 19th leading tacklers graduate). TJ Holl (who was leading the country in tackles when he went out in the fourth game) comes back. All of the specialists are back. Max Hartzman (starting center) comes back from injury as do two other offensive line starters and a probable OL starter who was hurt in camp.

On paper, Colgate should be better. Having four home games with New Hampshire, Furman, William and Mary, Army (and half of the PL) on the road will certainly reveal how much better.

[Colgate Raider Redux]

. Colgate will be good but until they win some meaningful OOC games their margin for error is extremely small. Like Lehigh, the Raiders graduate several key players (Holland, Afriyie, Paulish). Until there's major changes on defense Lehigh's ceiling will only be so high. Good PL program, irrelevant nationally....No preseason Top 25 team and no real threat on the national stage once again in 2018.
Colgate actually has almost the entire team coming back for the 2018 season. You're incorrect about Holland. He has a 5th medical year, along with starting O linemen Scott Hirschman and co-captain Max Harrtzman. Starting strong safety and co-captain Alec Wisniewski will also be returning for a medical 5th year. There are almost no 2017 starters that have to be replaced in 2018. Because of injuries during the year, the high number of experienced back-ups coming back is very unusual. In my 2018 season crystal ball, there are only one or two teams in the PL who are likely to give Colgate a tough game, assuming this team earnestly embraces the next logical steps between now and then..

I think you're correct that a big challenge for Colgate in 2018 is getting some meaningful O.O.C. wins: New Hampshire, Furman, Wm & Mary, Cornell and Army West Point. Freshman qb Breneman was cutting his eye teeth in the early season O.O.C. games, Buffalo, Furman, Richmond and Cornell. He was challenged in those games. And looked very much like the rookie that he is. Beneman has yet to prove himself against the Raider's O.O.C. competition. PL games were/are another story. Colgate went on to lose to L.U. by 3 points; but outscored its next 4 PL opponents 150-22. Some significant playmakers emerged, especially among the receivers and the 3-4 front D.L,-L.B. group of the D.. Breneman's progress after the O.O.C. games, along with the entire O, D and special teams was really impressive.

But, let's not kid ourselves....this was a very weak PL. And while we're in the reality zone, let's be frank about the Raider's long term objectives for its fb brand ....If Colgate is going to win the PL in 2018, without a couple of solid O.O.C. wins, it won't be very eventful. Colgate's annual approach to scheduling in the schollie age, though aggressive, is very deliberate and is designed to distinguish it in the FCS. It's designed to stretch a talented group of PL recruits into the next performance level just above the PL. That would manifest in the 2018 season by securing a higher than "normal PL seed" and getting an opponent it can beat in the FCS playoff. That might avoid the traditional "one-and-done" PL FCS tournament pattern. Ambitious?... yes. But doable for this group in 2018. Anything less in 2018 will be disappointing.

[Lehigh'98]

Need to see what coaching changes are made at Lehigh before I start to speculate, but they need a complete overhaul on defense, so I can't see them being relevant outside the PL next year.

[van]

Need to see what coaching changes are made at Lehigh before I start to speculate, but they need a complete overhaul on defense, so I can't see them being relevant outside the PL next year.

preponderance of data supports your thesis about the D, but the improvement in the past two weeks gives me a little optimism

[Lehigh'98]

preponderance of data supports your thesis about the D, but the improvement in the past two weeks gives me a little optimism

Please remember we played Holy Cross and Bucknell in those games.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Colgate actually has almost the entire team coming back for the 2018 season. You're incorrect about Holland. He has a 5th medical year, along with starting O linemen Scott Hirschman and co-captain Max Harrtzman. Starting strong safety and co-captain Alec Wisniewski will also be returning for a medical 5th year. There are almost no 2017 starters that have to be replaced in 2018. Because of injuries during the year, the high number of experienced back-ups coming back is very unusual. In my 2018 season crystal ball, there are only one or two teams in the PL who are likely to give Colgate a tough game, assuming this team earnestly embraces the next logical steps between now and then..

I think you're correct sbout the challenge for Colgate in 2018: getting some meaningful O.O.C. wins: New Hampshire, Furman, Wm & Mary, Cornell and Army West Point. Freshman qb Breneman was cutting his eye teeth in the early season O.O.C. games, Buffalo, Furman, Richmond and Cornell. He was challenged in those games. And looked very much like the rookie that he is. Beneman has yet to prove himself against the Raider's O.O.C. competition. PL games were/are another story. Colgate went on to lose to L.U. by 3 points; but outscored its next 4 PL opponents 150-22. Some significant playmakers emerged, especially among the receivers and the 3-4 front part of the D.. Breneman's progress after the O.O.C. games, along with the entire O, D and special teams was really impressive.

But, let's not kid ourselves....this was a very weak PL. And while we're in the reality zone, let's be frank about the Raider's long term objectives for its fb brand ....If Colgate is going to win the PL in 2018, without a couple of solid O.O.C. wins, it won't be very eventful. Colgate's annual approach to scheduling in the schollie age, though aggressive, is very deliberate and is designed to distinguish it in the FCS. It's designed to stretch a talented group of PL recruits into the next performance level just above the PL. That would manifest in the 2018 season by securing a higher than "normal PL seed" and getting an opponent it can beat in the FCS playoff. That might avoid the traditional "one-and-done" PL FCS tournament pattern. Ambitious?... yes. But doable for this group in 2018. Anything less in 2018 will be disappointing.

I think when it's all said and done Lehigh and Colgate will basically be 1A. and 1B. Lehigh gets Colgate at Goodman and have had the Raiders number this decade (6-2).

I think Lehigh's offense will be fine so long as Mayes's decision making/movement in the pocket improves. The one thing about Coen coach teams is good OL play. I have no major concerns about how that will shake out. Losing Pelletier and Casey will hurt. You can't sugarcoat the loss of a tandem this good. But, Lehigh has reloaded at WR (like EWU) before and there is experience being built this year. Having Brags and the rest of the RB will be a huge boost. Mayes really has to make the most of his senior season. To this point his Lehigh career has been Shafniskyesque.

It all comes down to the defense. Coen and the AD need to find a credible DC and rebuild the whole thing. This late season "improvement" is nothing but a mirage being perpetrated by terrible competition. This is year 5 of terrible defense so the insanity must end. Its handcuffed the program! This year's team would be 8-3/9-2 with a competent defense!

Either way, it's no shock that since the dust settled on the scholarship transition Colgate and Lehigh have once again re-emerged as the dominant programs in the PL. Both still need to raise their game on a national level. It starts by winning OOC games, 0-5 and 2-3 aren't going to cut it....

Lafayette will figure it out before too long. There's simply too much there to continue to suck year after year. 8 straight losing seasons? Holy ****!!!

[Roll 'gate]

I think when it's all said and done Lehigh and Colgate will basically be 1A. and 1B. Lehigh gets Colgate at Goodman and have had the Raiders number this decade (6-2).

I think Lehigh's offense will be fine so long as Mayes's decision making/movement in the pocket improves. The one thing about Coen coach teams is good OL play. I have no major concerns about how that will shake out. Losing Pelletier and Casey will hurt. You can't sugarcoat the loss of a tandem this good. But, Lehigh has reloaded at WR (like EWU) before and there is experience being built this year. Having Brags and the rest of the RB will be a huge boost. Mayes really has to make the most of his senior season. To this point his Lehigh career has been Shafniskyesque.

It all comes down to the defense. Coen and the AD need to find a credible DC and rebuild the whole thing. This late season "improvement" is nothing but a mirage being perpetrated by terrible competition. This is year 5 of terrible defense so the insanity must end. Its handcuffed the program! This year's team would be 8-3/9-2 with a competent defense!

Either way, it's no shock that since the dust settled on the scholarship transition Colgate and Lehigh have once again re-emerged as the dominant programs in the PL. Both still need to raise their game on a national level. It starts by winning OOC games, 0-5 and 2-3 aren't going to cut it....

Lafayette will figure it out before too long. There's simply too much there to continue to suck year after year. 8 straight losing seasons? Holy ****!!!

It's true that both teams need to raise the game on the national level but that starts with the overall PL raising its level. Stiff ooc play is fantastic but having a equally competitive league is also important. There needs to be more parody top to bottom before you will see true national level recognition other than a random team here or there.

Agreed that Lafayette is a team to watch. Just not sure when they get over the hump!

[ngineer]

While losing the two WRs will have an impact, it won't be devastating. A lot returns at that position more growth next year. The OL has a ton of underclassmen playing this year, so I don't see any problem there. My concern is Mayes. I am not seeing a progression, and if he doesn't start getting better at quick decision making, he may get challenged like Lum challenged J.B. Clark a few years ago. With "the Beast" returning to the backfield along with a solid backup group, the O could be 'doo-wopping' all through 2018. The D can't be any worse, and I believe will be better because of the experience returning. The secondary is quite athletic and a bunch of freshmen and sophs are playing now that should pay dividends next year. Loss of Cavenas hurts, but it is always next many up. Don't forget Mish is back with his PK and punting duties. His punting is another defensive weapon. I could see him getting some NFL looks in 2019.

Colgate will certainly have a great core returning and the QB should only get better. Another Vena in the making. After that, it will be a crap shoot in the PL and wouldn't be shocked at any of the others coming in third, other than the Hoyas. So sad. MPLG! [note I did not include "again", as we never have been].

[Roll 'gate]

While losing the two WRs will have an impact, it won't be devastating. A lot returns at that position more growth next year. The OL has a ton of underclassmen playing this year, so I don't see any problem there. My concern is Mayes. I am not seeing a progression, and if he doesn't start getting better at quick decision making, he may get challenged like Lum challenged J.B. Clark a few years ago. With "the Beast" returning to the backfield along with a solid backup group, the O could be 'doo-wopping' all through 2018. The D can't be any worse, and I believe will be better because of the experience returning. The secondary is quite athletic and a bunch of freshmen and sophs are playing now that should pay dividends next year. Loss of Cavenas hurts, but it is always next many up. Don't forget Mish is back with his PK and punting duties. His punting is another defensive weapon. I could see him getting some NFL looks in 2019.

Colgate will certainly have a great core returning and the QB should only get better. Another Vena in the making. After that, it will be a crap shoot in the PL and wouldn't be shocked at any of the others coming in third, other than the Hoyas. So sad. MPLG! [note I did not include "again", as we never have been].

Is there a backup that could actually challenge for the job hiding in that valley?

Our lehigh contingent ... expecting coaching changes this off season or does this "successful" year give them another year to mess up?

[LehighU11]

Is there a backup that could actually challenge for the job hiding in that valley?

Our lehigh contingent ... expecting coaching changes this off season or does this "successful" year give them another year to mess up?

Unlikely since LU will only return 2 other QBs next year besides Mayes and neither are the current backup. Shoup, who is a freshman out of Georgia, may have the better shot. An athletic, mobile QB who drew some comparisons to Shafnisky when he was recruited, though not quite as big. I believe Colgate also extended an offer to him.

[Colgate Raider Redux]

It's true that both teams need to raise the game on the national level but that starts with the overall PL raising its level. Stiff ooc play is fantastic but having a equally competitive league is also important. There needs to be more parody top to bottom before you will see true national level recognition other than a random team here or there.

Agreed that Lafayette is a team to watch. Just not sure when they get over the hump! Achieving PL versus Individual team "national stature enhancement" is more of an interdependent conundrum than a chicken-egg thing. Remember that Fordham, Lehigh and Colgate were the advocates for the transition to scholies, while the other PL schools were slower to adapt their fb programs initially. Through coaching changes and other initiatives, Holy Cross and Lafayette are now making more strategic commitments to upgrade the performance of their fb programs. They may close the gap, but it will be a gradual process, at best. It seems unlikely that Bucknell or Georgetown are going to change things significantly anytime soon. In aggregate, this variation is all fine--there's no way to compel intra-league performance parity. Adherence to league rules ( AI, redshirting, etc. ) may affect the character of the league. But, as one dimension of the bonds within the league, it is not a formula for raising the national stature of the league. And, relative to increasing the fb program's resources allocation, it has only a neglible impact on intra-league performance "parity" or comparative performance outside the PL.

One of the beauties of PL fb affiliation is that 5 of 11 games of the total annual schedule are o.o.c.. According to a school's srrategic vision for their fb program, they can "up-schedule" or "down-schedule" from PL competition. Intra-PL competition will only go so far in satisfying the institutional and/or competitive aspirations of all or each of the PL teams.

Although I expect some garadual improvement in intra-league parity, it's unlikely that the RPI improvement will contribute significantly to the stature of PL champs or the league itself on the larger stage.

[carney2]

Lafayette is a team to watch. Just not sure when they get over the hump!

The Pards will probably be improved in Garrett's second year. Watch the recruiting, however. It will be key. The big problem in 2017 has been the O-Line. It has been terrible - for the 8th consecutive year. Injuries were a factor, but, in my opinion, the talent wasn't there, regardless. If the program is dependent on recruiting to solve this problem, you need to remember that freshmen in the O-Line will not be a good sign. RB is another problem that will have to be addressed via recruiting. QB - the key to absolutely everything - is a question mark. Garrett went with freshman O'Malley for the entire year. Granted that he was playing behind the worst O-Line in the League, but anyone who saw the second coming at QB raise your hand. I thought not.

[RichH2]

Please remember we played Holy Cross and Bucknell in those games.

Yup that is who we played and both have better Os than Pards.

[RichH2]

Unlikely since LU will only return 2 other QBs next year besides Mayes and neither are the current backup. Shoup, who is a freshman out of Georgia, may have the better shot. An athletic, mobile QB who drew some comparisons to Shafnisky when he was recruited, though not quite as big. I believe Colgate also extended an offer to him.

I would not discount Monaco so quickly. He came in as an A-S QB from Fla. He is a clone of Shaf. A bit lighter but runs sprintouts well and is more of a pass first QB. Shoup is a bit shorter and lighter but equally athletic with a quicker release. Arm strength looks about the same.

[LehighU11]

I would not discount Monaco so quickly. He came in as an A-S QB from Fla. He is a clone of Shaf. A bit lighter but runs sprintouts well and is more of a pass first QB. Shoup is a bit shorter and lighter but equally athletic with a quicker release. Arm strength looks about the same.
Yes, both Shoup and Monaco have excellent credentials from their HS careers. Unless there is a coaching change, I'd expect Mayes to remain the starter next year. I recall the situation with J.B. Clark well: a rising senior (coincidentally also from FL like Mayes) and 2-time Lehigh-Lafayette MVP (following 4 years of losses to LC before his wins) who lost the job to then-junior Lum. However, Lum had a significant amount of playing time in 2009 as a sophomore. He saw action in 9 games and started 3.

This year's situation is quite different. Neither of the 2 potential new starting QBs have seen a single snap this year. Also, I think it is fair to say that Clark was not quite the caliber of QB that Mayes is. J.B completed just 50% of his passes and had 13 TD and 9 Int, barely outperforming Lum in his limited role that season.

[RichH2]

Next year we will have 4 QBs on roster. It will be Monaco's 3rd yr and Shoup's 2nd. While neither saw the field both will know the system if Mayes gets hurt. Lets hope that next year's OLine protects him as well as this year.

[Roll 'gate]

Achieving PL versus Individual team "national stature enhancement" is more of an interdependent conundrum than a chicken-egg thing. Remember that Fordham, Lehigh and Colgate were the advocates for the transition to scholies, while the other PL schools were slower to adapt their fb programs initially. Through coaching changes and other initiatives, Holy Cross and Lafayette are now making more strategic commitments to upgrade the performance of their fb programs. They may close the gap, but it will be a gradual process, at best. It seems unlikely that Bucknell or Georgetown are going to change things significantly anytime soon. In aggregate, this variation is all fine--there's no way to compel intra-league performance parity. Adherence to league rules ( AI, redshirting, etc. ) may affect the character of the league. But, as one dimension of the bonds within the league, it is not a formula for raising the national stature of the league. And, relative to increasing the fb program's resources allocation, it has only a neglible impact on intra-league performance "parity" or comparative performance outside the PL.

One of the beauties of PL fb affiliation is that 5 of 11 games of the total annual schedule are o.o.c.. According to a school's srrategic vision for their fb program, they can "up-schedule" or "down-schedule" from PL competition. Intra-PL competition will only go so far in satisfying the institutional and/or competitive aspirations of all or each of the PL teams.

Although I expect some garadual improvement in intra-league parity, it's unlikely that the RPI improvement will contribute significantly to the stature of PL champs or the league itself on the larger stage.

So at what point/how do you turn this conference into a legitimate 2 team playoff bid conference?

[ngineer]

Is there a backup that could actually challenge for the job hiding in that valley?

Our lehigh contingent ... expecting coaching changes this off season or does this "successful" year give them another year to mess up?

Good question. IF, and that's a big if, the defense shines against Lafayette, it could get a reprieve for Sutyak for another year. Of course, most defenses have looked good against Lafayette this year so he's in a no-win situation. IF the 'pards actually move the ball and put up a bunch of point, regardless if we outscore the Leotards, then I can see some change(s). Then, again, IF we win and go on the road and perform well against "whoever" that would effect the decision, as well.

[Colgate Raider Redux]

So at what point/how do you turn this conference into a legitimate 2 team playoff bid conference?
One of the teams will always be the AQ. Three developments have to take place concurrently: 1. The PL has 5 schools ( including H.C. and Laffy ) that have competitive RPI's. Therefore the A.Q. and the next best team have modestly improved RPI's from intra-league play than they currently receive from PL competition today. 2. The 5 competitive P.L. teams will adopt o.o.c. schedules where each game is an "up-schedule" of PL competition. 3. The P.L. A.Q. runner up has success in its "up-sheduled o.o.c. games."

In the spirit of "putting this strategy in place before you have the horses" check out these Holy Cross schedules for 2018 and 2019. Prudent ?

1. 2018: http://www.goholycross.com/SportSelect.dbml?SPSID=917327&SPID=157213&DB_OEM_ID=33100&Q_SEASON=2018
2. 2019: http://www.goholycross.com/SportSelect.dbml?SPSID=917327&SPID=157213&DB_OEM_ID=33100&Q_SEASON=2019

[Sader87]

Holy Cross will be a stronger program moving forward. Maybe not next year, in terms of results, but with the right hire at head coach the future will be a lot brighter than it has been for awhile on Mt St James. The school finally seems committed to putting forth more resources, energy etc to football than it has since they dropped scholarships in 1991.

Long road back....but i think we are finally back on our way.

[Colgate Raider Redux]

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26529&stc=1
Sader87[/B]

Long road back.... but i think we are finally back on our way.



Sader87 (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/member.php?12148-Sader87), I hope you understand that H.C.'s current challenge has been experienced by every other PL school at some point in the past. Each PL team has a storied history. But the other schools haven't gotten obsessed with the past. If the program isn't stuck, the past just blends into an evolving culture of the program. CASE IN POINT: check out one of the teams whose current situation you love to knock.
Georgeown against Mississippi State in the 1941 Orange Bowl:

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26528&stc=1


http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26530&stc=1

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26531&stc=1

[UNHWildcat18]

Couldn't even wait until after playoffs?

[LehighU11]

Yes, and let's not forget that Bucknell beat Miami--long before it became The U--in the inaugural Orange Bowl. With their strong hoops program, they coulda been in the Big East, too! xdrunkyx

[Sader87]

I'm not talking ancient FBS Holy Cross history, I'm talking about the 1980s, early 1990s when HC was very successful playing at the FCS/1-AA level.

No program has probably dropped as much at the FCS level from 1990 to 2017 as Holy Cross.

There really isn't any way to go but up.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I'm not talking ancient FBS Holy Cross history, I'm talking about the 1980s, early 1990s when HC was very successful playing at the FCS/1-AA level.

No program has probably dropped as much at the FCS level from 1990 to 2017 as Holy Cross.

There really isn't any way to go but up.

To use that relatively brief 6-7 year period of time as a reference for what Holy Cross "should" is crazy imo. It's simply an unrealistic expectation. Based on the last half century of Crusader football that stretch of success is very much the outlier, the exception to the rule. The reality is other than those glory years Holy Cross has very much been a mediocre football program since the 60's.

I think Holy Cross will improve but I still think there's some serious institutional hurdles that will prevent them from being a consistently elite FCS program. Even more than some of their Patriot League peers. It's not like the Carmody hiring is lighting up basketball. You guys were picked 8th in a 10 team league to start the year. I'm sure one of Milan Brown's teams could have road a hot hand into the tournament too.....

[ngineer]

I'm not talking ancient FBS Holy Cross history, I'm talking about the 1980s, early 1990s when HC was very successful playing at the FCS/1-AA level.

No program has probably dropped as much at the FCS level from 1990 to 2017 as Holy Cross.

There really isn't any way to go but up.

Keep in mind when the PL first began, HC ran wild due to still having scholarships when the rest did not. Once the scholarship era ended, Crusaders came down to earth. Other than some interspersed very good years, HC had been middling along. Now that we, as a League, are into scholarships a few years we may see a re-righting of ships.

[Go...gate]

For Colgate, Holland will be back next year as will everyone who ran the ball. Everyone who threw the ball will be back. The top six receivers will be back. 23 of the top 26 tacklers will be back (the 5th, 11th, and 19th leading tacklers graduate). TJ Holl (who was leading the country in tackles when he went out in the fourth game) comes back. All of the specialists are back. Max Hartzman (starting center) comes back from injury as do two other offensive line starters and a probable OL starter who was hurt in camp.

On paper, Colgate should be better. Having four home games with New Hampshire, Furman, William and Mary, Army (and half of the PL) on the road will certainly reveal how much better.

Nice schedule in '18.

[Go...gate]

I'm not talking ancient FBS Holy Cross history, I'm talking about the 1980s, early 1990s when HC was very successful playing at the FCS/1-AA level.

No program has probably dropped as much at the FCS level from 1990 to 2017 as Holy Cross.

There really isn't any way to go but up.

Colgate declined precipitously from 1988 to 1995 but successfully rebuilt. It can be done.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Colgate declined precipitously from 1988 to 1995 but successfully rebuilt. It can be done.

Exactly! The narrative that the PL only hurt/limited Holy Cross football is a flat out lie. Less than ten years prior to the formation of the Colonial League Lehigh won a D2 National Title and played for a 1-AA National Title. Joining the league also destroyed Lehigh's competitive rivalry with Delaware.

Colgate was playing games on ABC as a 1-A program and then participated in the 1-AA playoffs within the decade prior to the joining the Colonial League.

The drivel about how the Colonial/PL only hurt Holy Cross is the biggest bunch of bull**** spewed on here.

Plus, outside of the '87 team Holy Cross's teams from '86-'91 were no better than Lehigh's stretch from '98-'05. Look at the scores if you don't believe me. Lehigh was kicking teams asses by 4+ TD's too...

[Sader87]

Sorry, but the HC teams of the 1980s were much better than any teams the PL (outside of Colgate) has seen since then...and that is not an opinion....we dropped down a level to play in the Colonial/Patriot League....spin it anyway way you can, but it's a certifiable fact.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Sorry, but the HC teams of the 1980s were much better than any teams the PL (outside of Colgate) has seen since then...and that is not an opinion....we dropped down a level to play in the Colonial/Patriot League....spin it anyway way you can, but it's a certifiable fact.

You admit you didn't pay attention to PL football in the late 90's, early 00's.....

[DFW HOYA]

I'm not talking ancient FBS Holy Cross history, I'm talking about the 1980s, early 1990s when HC was very successful playing at the FCS/1-AA level.

No program has probably dropped as much at the FCS level from 1990 to 2017 as Holy Cross.

There really isn't any way to go but up.

Colgate and Holy Cross took a step down to join the Colonial/Patriot League but neither were at a consistently competitive I-A level.

Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell took a step up.

Fordham took a big step up and it took them 10 years how to work the AI to get talent in the door.

Georgetown took a big step up and they still can't get talent in the door.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Colgate and Holy Cross took a step down to join the Colonial/Patriot League but neither were at a consistently competitive I-A level.

Lehigh, Lafayette and Bucknell took a step up.

Fordham took a big step up and it took them 10 years how to work the AI to get talent in the door.

Georgetown took a big step up and they still can't get talent in the door.

Fordham's issues are/were completely institutional!

Does the A10 have an AI for basketball? They've been trying to get talent in the door in that conference for 20+ years with no success. Fordham made terrible, rash decisions when it came to their athletics in the late 80's early 90's that cost them greatly from a competitive standpoint. It has nothing to do with the AI....

[Colgate Raider Redux]

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26549&stc=1
spin it anyway way you can, but it's a certifiable fact.

How fortunate we are to be "spun" so frequently


http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26548&stc=1

[Go...gate]

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26548&stc=1[/QUOTE]


Is this book presently in publication? I would like to obtain a copy.

[Colgate Raider Redux]

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26548&stc=1


Is this book presently in publication? I would like to obtain a copy.[/QUOTE]

https://www.amazon.com/Farewell-Glory-Football-Rivalry-College/dp/1479702501/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1511047185&sr=1-1&keywords=a+farewell+to+glory (https://www.amazon.com/Farewell-Glory-Football-Rivalry-College/dp/1479702501/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1511047185&sr=1-1&keywords=a+farewell+to+glory)

[Doc QB]

But, let's not kid ourselves....this was a very weak PL. And while we're in the reality zone, let's be frank about the Raider's long term objectives for its fb brand ....If Colgate is going to win the PL in 2018, without a couple of solid O.O.C. wins, it won't be very eventful. Colgate's annual approach to scheduling in the schollie age, though aggressive, is very deliberate and is designed to distinguish it in the FCS. It's designed to stretch a talented group of PL recruits into the next performance level just above the PL. That would manifest in the 2018 season by securing a higher than "normal PL seed" and getting an opponent it can beat in the FCS playoff. That might avoid the traditional "one-and-done" PL FCS tournament pattern. Ambitious?... yes. But doable for this group in 2018. Anything less in 2018 will be disappointing.

I like Colgates OOC here and this season, its shows the right direction, ambition, and aggressive approach . Helps them prep for PL schedule, and shows there commitment to work to become more relevant nationally.

[Go...gate]

One of the teams will always be the AQ. Three developments have to take place concurrently: 1. The PL has 5 schools ( including H.C. and Laffy ) that have competitive RPI's. Therefore the A.Q. and the next best team have modestly improved RPI's from intra-league play than they currently receive from PL competition today. 2. The 5 competitive P.L. teams will adopt o.o.c. schedules where each game is an "up-schedule" of PL competition. 3. The P.L. A.Q. runner up has success in its "up-sheduled o.o.c. games."

In the spirit of "putting this strategy in place before you have the horses" check out these Holy Cross schedules for 2018 and 2019. Prudent ?

1. 2018: http://www.goholycross.com/SportSelect.dbml?SPSID=917327&SPID=157213&DB_OEM_ID=33100&Q_SEASON=2018
2. 2019: http://www.goholycross.com/SportSelect.dbml?SPSID=917327&SPID=157213&DB_OEM_ID=33100&Q_SEASON=2019

No more or less prudent than Colgate's schedules, IMO.

[RichH2]

I like Colgates OOC here and this season, its shows the right direction, ambition, and aggressive approach . Helps them prep for PL schedule, and shows there commitment to work to become more relevant nationally.

+1

[ngineer]

Nice schedule in '18.

HOME game with Army??? Really? I find that amazing. If true, great job in getting that visit.

[TheValleyRaider]

HOME game with Army??? Really? I find that amazing. If true, great job in getting that visit.

That's a bit awkwardly worded. Only 4 home games total and road OOC games that include Army (plus UNH, Furman, and W&M)

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

That's a bit awkwardly worded. Only 4 home games total and road OOC games that include Army (plus UNH, Furman, and W&M)

Colgate is in deep poop with that schedule. No redshirting, 4 home games, road games against all the toughest OOC teams. Plus road games at Lehigh and Fordham.

You can brag about scheduling tough all you want but I think there's serious amount of writing checks that your butts can't cash. Especially with Colgate's notoriously poor OOC play.

I can't wait to see how that plays out...

6-5? You might be better next year but have a worst record...

[Sader87]

If playing UNH, Furman and W&M OOC is a bridge too far....the PL (cough, Lehigh Valley) still has a D2 mindset.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

If playing UNH, Furman and W&M OOC is a bridge too far....the PL (cough, Lehigh Valley) still has a D2 mindset.

Holy Cross and Colgate are going to take their medicine next year no doubt about it.

[Go...gate]

Holy Cross and Colgate are going to take their medicine next year no doubt about it.

I always try to be decent on this page, but must you start this up again?

Lehigh is the conference champion - and the Engineers earned it - but their sh-t stinks as badly as the rest of us.

Lehigh needs a new coach and staff, among other things.

Fix your own program and then tell us how to run the rest of ours.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I always try to be decent on this page, but must you start this up again?

Lehigh is the conference champion - and the Engineers earned it - but their sh-t stinks as badly as the rest of us.

Lehigh needs a new coach and staff, among other things.

Fix your own program and then tell us how to run the rest of ours.

Because at the end of the day I'm more concerned about the PL improving! That's all I care about! I'm not impressed with Lehigh's season at all! I've been very clear about that! There needs to be some serious changes imo in order for Lehigh to be relevant nationally.

Like I've been saying, Lehigh and the rest of the PL need to figure things about in a big way. Unless Colgate wins those games it means absolutely nothing.

Besides this thread is about 2018 right? xeyebrowx I know it's way way way early...but still....

[Sader87]

Holy Cross playing football games against (and probably losing badly) BC, Syracuse, Navy etc.... is much more preferable than our PL games. It is what it is....we have a different mindset collectively than most Lehigh alumni. Probably nuts but we simply don't care as much about PL titles or playoffs etc....would rather play FBS schools and good FCS OOC (UNH, Yale, Harvard etc) and call it a season.

[Go...gate]

Because at the end of the day I'm more concerned about the PL improving! That's all I care about! I'm not impressed with Lehigh's season at all! I've been very clear about that! There needs to be some serious changes imo in order for Lehigh to be relevant.

Like I've been saying, Lehigh and the rest of the PL need to figure things about in a big way.

Besides this thread is about 2018 right? xeyebrowx

Colgate is pretty tireless in the way it seeks to fund and operate its football, hockey and basketball programs as successfully as possible. Many in the football administration are still around from the 0-11 nadir in 1995 and are determined that it never recur. Those persons also believe that 2003 and 2015 displayed the potential of the program and I suspect that efforts will continue to move in that direction. This is why schools like Bryant are off Colgate's schedule and (unless the Ivies play us again, which seems increasingly unlikely) opponents such as Furman, William & Mary, Delaware, Stony Brook, New Hampshire, Maine and Albany will fill more games on the slate, even though many of those games may be played away from Hamilton.

[TheValleyRaider]

Colgate is in deep poop with that schedule. No redshirting, 4 home games, road games against all the toughest OOC teams. Plus road games at Lehigh and Fordham.

You can brag about scheduling tough all you want but I think there's serious amount of writing checks that your butts can't cash. Especially with Colgate's notoriously poor OOC play.

I can't wait to see how that plays out...

6-5? You might be better next year but have a worst record...

While it's not ideal to have all 4 of those on the road, why couldn't we get 2 wins there? We were within a score of Richmond this year and last (a team comparable to UNH), and W&M struggled quite a bit this season (Sagarin had them #200 in DI coming into this weekend, Colgate #154). Our losing streaks in Bethlehem and the Bronx are 2 games each, which is hardly insurmountable.

Certainly underdogs in Durham, and I bet the Tribe are better than this year, but if we can't be competitive in those games, how are we really matching up nationwide? A win over Lehigh would be good, but the longer-term goal isn't to compete for the Patriot League title (we already do that).

Add in a win over Cornell, and that's a respectable 3-2 before PL play. A few things will need to go our way for that to happen, but this is the time for dreaming, isn't it?

[Go...gate]

I am amazed at the grief we get for the way we schedule.

[Go...gate]

Holy Cross playing football games against (and probably losing badly) BC, Syracuse, Navy etc.... is much more preferable than our PL games. It is what it is....we have a different mindset collectively than most Lehigh alumni. Probably nuts but we simply don't care as much about PL titles or playoffs etc....would rather play FBS schools and good FCS OOC (UNH, Yale, Harvard etc) and call it a season.

Amen, though I still believe the playoffs are a worthy endeavor.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I am amazed at the grief we get for the way we schedule.

Because you want respect for simply scheduling these games. You get respect by winning them! Scheduling them and losing does the PL and Colgate no favors nationally. It's very simply concept. Colgate's play in the OOC this year did themselves or the league no favors. Furman fans are struggling even taking credit for a blowout road win over you as a 7-4 PL Co-Champ! That's not good!

Perhaps if Colgate schedules Bryant this year instead of Buffalo their 8-3 and closer to the playoffs? But to you, it's more important to get run out of UB Stadium in the 1st quarter by the Bulls and suffer yet another decisive loss to a FBS team(this time a terrible one). At least that's the feeling I get.

Just way different thought processes...

[Sader87]

FCS playoffs are a joke.....maybe a necessary endeavor in this day and age to some....but ultimately, a waste of resources...a bowl game between the Ivy and Patriot champs is preferable imo

[Go...gate]

FCS playoffs are a joke.....maybe a necessary endeavor in this day and age to some....but ultimately, a waste of resources...a bowl game between the Ivy and Patriot champs is preferable imo

I see your point, but I still prefer a national stage to compete on.

- - - Updated - - -


Because you want respect for simply scheduling these games. You get respect by winning them! Scheduling them and losing does the PL and Colgate no favors nationally. It's very simply concept. Colgate's play in the OOC this year did themselves or the league no favors. Furman fans are struggling even taking credit for a blowout road win over you as a 7-4 PL Co-Champ! That's not good!

Perhaps if Colgate schedules Bryant this year instead of Buffalo their 8-3 and closer to the playoffs? But to you, it's more important to get run out of UB Stadium in the 1st quarter by the Bulls and suffer yet another decisive loss to a FBS team(this time a terrible one). At least that's the feeling I get.

Just way different thought processes...

Damn well told.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

FCS playoffs are a joke.....maybe a necessary endeavor in this day and age to some....but ultimately, a waste of resources...a bowl game between the Ivy and Patriot champs is preferable imo

The playoffs have become a bit of joke. I completely agree with it. The bracketing and the way home games are awarded is bs. Unless the PL football programs have a culture change true success in the playoffs will remain scarce. I really think the PL needs to see how the next couple of years play out. If things don't change and the league fails to gain traction nationally then pull the plug.

[Go...gate]

No way Colgate pulls the plug. Do you honestly see Lehigh doing that?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

No way Colgate pulls the plug. Do you honestly see Lehigh doing that?

Maybe it's not Colgate's decision to make?

If you want to seriously compete for a national title or at least win playoff games on a regular basis the league needs to step up their game big time. I think everyone would agree on that. In order for that to happen changes have to occur all around. Having a league member like Georgetown is a brutal situation. That situation has to improve for the leagues sake. Holy Cross and Lafayette are going through transitions and you get the feeling it's now or never at both places. If this doesn't work how vested are their administrations in "Scholarship" football? Bucknell's obvious passive stance on football doesn't help. Lehigh doesn't have lights and there's question if they'll ever be able to host another playoff game. To me that's a major major competitive issue. They also have to pay assistants. Colgate has their own issues. I can go on and on.

Where will the league be in 2020? If someone said in 2012 when it was announced the league was going schollie that in 2017 the league would be sending a 5-6 team in the playoffs and the league would have 1 team with a winning record the universal response would have been "impossible".

"STATS" had the "Horrific Start by the PL" article. The narrative around PL football right now is not good. It's the "joke" of FCS. And next weekend might make it even worse. That's not me telling you that. That's the FCS community and the FCS media....

[Go...gate]

Go Lehigh TU owl, you have made some very valid points, particularly with regard to Georgetown and Bucknell.

Lafayette has committed literally millions to football facilities - which are now arguably the best in the conference - and with the hiring of Garrett, clearly signaled some increased emphasis on football.

The athletic administration at Holy Cross certainly is showing a similar signal - the long-overdue ouster of Gilmore, whom I thought overrated back to his days at Penn, is a most encouraging sign.

Lehigh needs to spend the coin on lights (with the help of a private donor or two) as Colgate did. It will not break the bank at LU.

At Colgate, there is a new President with a renewed commitment to athletics, so football de-emphasis is not in the cards. I don't know what other "issues" you know to exist at Colgate, but I know of none. We have come a long way in twenty years and there is no intention to go backwards.

Much the same situation prevails at Fordham, which, if anything, has raised the bar for the rest of us.

[Lehigh'98]

Maybe it's not Colgate's decision to make?

If you want to seriously compete for a national title or at least win playoff games on a regular basis the league needs to step up their game big time. I think everyone would agree on that. In order for that to happen changes have to occur all around. Having a league member like Georgetown is a brutal situation. That situation has to improve for the leagues sake. Holy Cross and Lafayette are going through transitions and you get the feeling it's now or never at both places. If this doesn't work how vested are their administrations in "Scholarship" football? Bucknell's obvious passive stance on football doesn't help. Lehigh doesn't have lights and there's question if they'll ever be able to host another playoff game. To me that's a major major competitive issue. They also have to pay assistants. Colgate has their own issues. I can go on and on.

Where will the league be in 2020? If someone said in 2012 when it was announced the league was going schollie that in 2017 the league would be sending a 5-6 team in the playoffs and the league would have 1 team with a winning record the universal response would have been "impossible".

"STATS" had the "Horrific Start by the PL" article. The narrative around PL football right now is not good. It's the "joke" of FCS. And next weekend might make it even worse. That's not me telling you that. That's the FCS community and the FCS media....

You need to slow it down just a bit here. Terrible season, absolutely. Coaching changes needed, absolutely. Better institutional support, yep. From 1998-2015, most years we were competitive in the playoffs, winning a fair amount of games. Let’s not dismantle everything because of a real bad year.

[TheValleyRaider]

Maybe it's not Colgate's decision to make?

If you want to seriously compete for a national title or at least win playoff games on a regular basis the league needs to step up their game big time. I think everyone would agree on that. In order for that to happen changes have to occur all around. Having a league member like Georgetown is a brutal situation. That situation has to improve for the leagues sake. Holy Cross and Lafayette are going through transitions and you get the feeling it's now or never at both places. If this doesn't work how vested are their administrations in "Scholarship" football? Bucknell's obvious passive stance on football doesn't help. Lehigh doesn't have lights and there's question if they'll ever be able to host another playoff game. To me that's a major major competitive issue. They also have to pay assistants. Colgate has their own issues. I can go on and on.

Where will the league be in 2020? If someone said in 2012 when it was announced the league was going schollie that in 2017 the league would be sending a 5-6 team in the playoffs and the league would have 1 team with a winning record the universal response would have been "impossible".

"STATS" had the "Horrific Start by the PL" article. The narrative around PL football right now is not good. It's the "joke" of FCS. And next weekend might make it even worse. That's not me telling you that. That's the FCS community and the FCS media....

There's a little too much "darkest timeline" here. Think of this conversation 1 year ago. Colgate was coming off a quarterfinal run, and Lehigh was believed to have a good shot at knocking off UNH and going back to the Round of 16. We were a conference on the rise. The current circumstances aren't ideal, but that narrative changes quickly with a couple of extra wins next year. Why is right now "now or never" for HC and Lafayette?

If you are looking for one of us to become NDSU, then yeah, there's some disappointment coming. We aren't those schools, for good or ill. But can we build programs that are nationally competitive and occasionally make a deep run in the postseason? It has happened before, why not again?

Let's also not read too much into smaller decisions. Lehigh not choosing to have lights does not reflect on Colgate's national ambitions. That is a far too Lehigh-centric view of the League.

Some programs aren't going to be good. Every conference has them, the Indiana States, Rhode Islands, and Northern Colorados. I don't buy that the difference between the PL being good and not good is whether or not Bucknell can win an OCC game against someone better than Marist or Cornell.

[Doc QB]

While it's not ideal to have all 4 of those on the road, why couldn't we get 2 wins there? We were within a score of Richmond this year and last (a team comparable to UNH), and W&M struggled quite a bit this season (Sagarin had them #200 in DI coming into this weekend, Colgate #154). Our losing streaks in Bethlehem and the Bronx are 2 games each, which is hardly insurmountable.

Certainly underdogs in Durham, and I bet the Tribe are better than this year, but if we can't be competitive in those games, how are we really matching up nationwide? A win over Lehigh would be good, but the longer-term goal isn't to compete for the Patriot League title (we already do that).

Add in a win over Cornell, and that's a respectable 3-2 before PL play. A few things will need to go our way for that to happen, but this is the time for dreaming, isn't it?

Its not dreaming at all, it's ambitious scheduling with goal of being bigger than the rest of the PL. To me, it's why the scholarships were added, not just to beat the Ivies. I applaud it, and think 'Gate will do well.

[DFW HOYA]

FCS playoffs are a joke.....maybe a necessary endeavor in this day and age to some....but ultimately, a waste of resources...a bowl game between the Ivy and Patriot champs is preferable imo

There were always 2 or 3 at non-CAA bids from the Northeast. Where once they belonged to the PL, today,they come from the NEC and Big South.

So, if the PL is consigned as a one-bid league by the NCAA, what does that do to the competitive firmament? Does a PL school oneday consider a multi-bid league as a better long term option given the significant investment it is making? Six schools will be spending upwards of $5-6 million a year, and only one will get a 13th week to show for it.

[Go...gate]

Its not dreaming at all, it's ambitious scheduling with goal of being bigger than the rest of the PL. To me, it's why the scholarships were added, not just to beat the Ivies. I applaud it, and think 'Gate will do well.

It is a tradition at Colgate.

[Go...gate]

There's a little too much "darkest timeline" here. Think of this conversation 1 year ago. Colgate was coming off a quarterfinal run, and Lehigh was believed to have a good shot at knocking off UNH and going back to the Round of 16. We were a conference on the rise. The current circumstances aren't ideal, but that narrative changes quickly with a couple of extra wins next year. Why is right now "now or never" for HC and Lafayette?

If you are looking for one of us to become NDSU, then yeah, there's some disappointment coming. We aren't those schools, for good or ill. But can we build programs that are nationally competitive and occasionally make a deep run in the postseason? It has happened before, why not again?

Let's also not read too much into smaller decisions. Lehigh not choosing to have lights does not reflect on Colgate's national ambitions. That is a far too Lehigh-centric view of the League.

Some programs aren't going to be good. Every conference has them, the Indiana States, Rhode Islands, and Northern Colorados. I don't buy that the difference between the PL being good and not good is whether or not Bucknell can win an OCC game against someone better than Marist or Cornell.

+1

[Go...gate]

There were always 2 or 3 at non-CAA bids from the Northeast. Where once they belonged to the PL, today,they come from the NEC and Big South.

So, if the PL is consigned as a one-bid league by the NCAA, what does that do to the competitive firmament? Does a PL school one day consider a multi-bid league as a better long term option given the significant investment it is making? Six schools will be spending upwards of $5-6 million a year, and only one will get a 13th week to show for it.

I believe this was an off year for the conference, but it is not the first time and will not be the last. Candidly, however, since we are talking about the future, as much as I want Georgetown in the league, is there any chance that they will do anything to strengthen the program?

[DFW HOYA]

Candidly, however, since we are talking about the future, as much as I want Georgetown in the league, is there any chance that they will do anything to strengthen the program?

Aside from 60 scholarships, some offense would help. Georgetown's national rankings on offense (out of 123 teams) would suggest trouble in 2018.

Scoring Offense 119th
Rushing Offense 120th
Total Offense 118th
3rd Down Conversion Pct 123rd
Time of Possession 123rd

[Model Citizen]

Agree with Sader on the playoffs, but the Patriot went all in with scholarships. The bowl opponent for the Ivy (if a bowl ever happens) will be the Pioneer.

[Go...gate]

Agree with Sader on the playoffs, but the Patriot went all in with scholarships. The bowl opponent for the Ivy (if a bowl ever happens) will be the Pioneer.

Bigger issue is that, for the foreseeable future, the Council of Ivy Presidents is not going to lift the postseason ban for an Ivy Football Champion.

[Lehigh'98]

Agree with Sader on the playoffs, but the Patriot went all in with scholarships. The bowl opponent for the Ivy (if a bowl ever happens) will be the Pioneer.

Harvard/Yale winner vs San Diego/Dayton winner on Thanksgiving weekend. You really think this happens? Best of luck with that.

[Model Citizen]

As articulated by Yale's athletic director, the plan would be to play a December game. Probably in Florida.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

How many 2018 schedules have been released?

[Roll 'gate]

How many 2018 schedules have been released?

Colgate's 2018 Schedule:

2018
Sept. 1 HOLY CROSS *
Sept. 8 at New Hampshire
Sept. 15 at Furman
Sept. 22 LAFAYETTE *
Sept. 29 at William & Mary
Oct. 6 at Bucknell *
Oct. 13 CORNELL
Oct. 20 Open
Oct. 27 GEORGETOWN *
Nov. 3 at Fordham *
Nov. 10 at Lehigh *
Nov. 17 at Army West Point

LOVE LOVE LOVE IT

[Kramden]

Amen, I wish we'd leave the PL since our approach to OOC games has been one that has borne fruit.

[Engineer86]

Colgate's 2018 Schedule:

2018
Sept. 1 HOLY CROSS *
Sept. 8 at New Hampshire
Sept. 15 at Furman
Sept. 22 LAFAYETTE *
Sept. 29 at William & Mary
Oct. 6 at Bucknell *
Oct. 13 CORNELL
Oct. 20 Open
Oct. 27 GEORGETOWN *
Nov. 3 at Fordham *
Nov. 10 at Lehigh *
Nov. 17 at Army West Point

LOVE LOVE LOVE IT

+1

[Sader87]

Probably overly ambitious given our current circumstances, but I like this schedule a lot too:



2018 HOLY CROSS FOOTBALL SCHEDULE


Date
Opponent
Location


Sept. 1
at Colgate *
Andy Kerr Stadium, Hamilton, N.Y.


Sept. 8
at Boston College
Alumni Stadium, Chestnut Hill, Mass.


Sept. 15
Yale
Fitton Field, Worcester, Mass.


Sept. 22
Dartmouth
Fitton Field, Worcester, Mass.


Sept. 29
Bucknell *
Fitton Field, Worcester, Mass.


Oct. 6
at New Hampshire
Wildcat Stadium, Durham, N.H.


Oct. 13
at Harvard
Harvard Stadium, Cambridge, Mass.


Oct. 27
Lehigh *
Fitton Field, Worcester, Mass.


Nov. 3
at Lafayette *
Fisher Stadium, Easton, Pa.


Nov. 10
Fordham *
Fitton Field, Worcester, Mass.


Nov. 17
at Georgetown *
Cooper Field, Washington, D.C.

[Colgate Raider Redux]

Probably overly ambitious given our current circumstances, but I like this schedule a lot too:



2018 HOLY CROSS FOOTBALL SCHEDULE


Date
Opponent
Location


Sept. 1
at Colgate *
Andy Kerr Stadium, Hamilton, N.Y.


Sept. 8
at Boston College
Alumni Stadium, Chestnut Hill, Mass.


Sept. 15
Yale
Fitton Field, Worcester, Mass.


Sept. 22
Dartmouth
Fitton Field, Worcester, Mass.


Sept. 29
Bucknell *
Fitton Field, Worcester, Mass.


Oct. 6
at New Hampshire
Wildcat Stadium, Durham, N.H.


Oct. 13
at Harvard
Harvard Stadium, Cambridge, Mass.


Oct. 27
Lehigh *
Fitton Field, Worcester, Mass.


Nov. 3
at Lafayette *
Fisher Stadium, Easton, Pa.


Nov. 10
Fordham *
Fitton Field, Worcester, Mass.


Nov. 17
at Georgetown *
Cooper Field, Washington, D.C.




And 2019 is even better: http://www.goholycross.com/SportSelect.dbml?SPSID=917327&SPID=157213&DB_OEM_ID=33100&Q_SEASON=2018

But alas.....

Reality Check: 5-6 TOPS; 4-7 more likely records in both seasons, regardless of who the new coach is.

That'll make it 8 consecutive years ( 8...count 'em ) ....of being at or below .500--within a league where you remind us weekly that competition "is not so hot"...your perspective as an entitled outsider looking in. ( 7 of 8 below .500; one season at 6-5 )

My heart goes out to the Saders. I really mean it. A herculean effort was put in over the past two fb seasons to create a feeling of belonging/being in the mix, recruiting---scheduling---huge pressure on the coach and A.D., retaining 5th year seniors---what more could you do----righting the ship--full steam ahead----( you got the drift ? ) It was palpable--if you read the commentary of the delusional entitled HC faithful ( the same ones that reassure each orher "it has been the PL's fault" Amen Amen bro ) after the UNH upset. And, at that point in the season it looked like they might have achieved the turnaround without firing their Head Coach. What a cruel sucker punch ?

This was a cruel season after all of this effort.......so close to giving sader 87 something to brag about

Things just gor worse with the "turnaround synchronization hitch:" But, to have to hire a new head coach and endure all of the distractions... just when another piece of the turnaround strategy was to kick in--these great juicy very competitive schedules--- throws salt in the wound. Doesn't it. '87 ??? And the recruiting season is rapidly heating up with no one in charge and no experienced bodies coming back.

How much can you take ? You know no one has ever believed it's been the PL's fault or anyone else's for that matter.....Nothing can explain this amount of bad luck....it's got to be H.C. KARMA!! ....plain and simple.....

And all 87 is left to share at Show and Tell ( schedule above ): " Probably overly ambitious given our current circumstances, but I like this schedule a lot too:"

[Sader87]

"Outside looking in" where? The vaunted FCS playoffs that about 19 people truly care about?

It is what it is....as I posted in the other PL thread...much of our problem athletically (and our subsequent slippage in brand academically to an extent) can be placed on administrative missteps in the late 1970s and 1980s.

We are where we are now...have to rebuild at some point, scheduling games against FBS schools, good CAA programs, solid Ivies etc is a good step in that direction imo.

Let's just say, I'd rather play and lose with the schedules we will be playing than go 8-3 against a watered-down schedule and play at (name your CAA school) in the FCS playoffs.

[Colgate Raider Redux]

...much of our problem athletically (and our subsequent slippage in brand academically to an extent) can be placed on administrative missteps in the late 1970s and 1980s


Thank you. This is he first time I've witnessed an explanaton by you that wasn't voo-doo-ish. ​Look man, I know H.C. better than you can imagine. I've always looked at the athletic debacle as part of a trifecta of H,C. governance disasters : (1. ) H.C. adminisration's allowing the atrophy of the athletic brand. ( 2. ) the failure to expand diversification geographically, when everyone saw New England and Massachusetts college aged population dwindling. This let every school with which H.C. competes in New England/America that did expand geographically gain a larger potential market. This was/is a competitive necessity for a selective Catholic liberal arts college in New England. This, coming at a time when the demand for Catholic high school and college enrollment was in rapid decline across the U.S.. ( 3.) the decline in applications to a 39% acceptance rate.

WOW!

It's not the PL that's the suspect. It's HC's governance system.

I have no "hard on" for H.C.. But, its difficult for me to sit back with what I know and listen to you ascribe H.C.'s problems to the P.L.---in a Voo-Doo-ish way,...while all of the other P.L. schools are flourishng as institutions, dong the best they can where they're currently positioned and not pretending they're something that they're not.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

'87,

I know you like to point to the downfall of HC athletics coming in 30-40 years ago but from the outside I think the actual change occurred sometime in the late 50's, early 60's. Overall, though it's not like Holy Cross had any prolonged success in football or men's basketball. Holy Cross had a 10 year run from the mid 40's until the mid 50's of true national relevance in basketball. Doggie Julian took over a program that was terrible for its first 40 years of existence and won a national title in year two. The Crusaders would ride the wave of momentum for another 10 years. They had a 3 year run in the early 60's of NIT bids before completely falling off the map completely for about 10-15 years. Blaney had some nice years in the 1970's but they never won a NCAA Tournament game. He was in Worcester for a long period of time but accomplished next to nothing on a national level. I know Holy Cross received an invite to the Big East but they were far from a power at the time. Villanova, DePaul and Notre Dame were the Catholic schools that were competing for Final 4s by then. The Crusaders have not won a NCAA Tournament game since 1953. Bucknell last won a NCAA Tournament game in 2006. Lehigh last won a NCAA Tournament game in 2012.

Football had a much longer run of success than basketball years ago. The Crusaders had winning decades in the 30's, 40's and 50's. Then the 60's came and like basketball football fell of the map. Holy Cross posted losing decades in the 60's and 70's before their run the 80's. Then they proceeded to post losing decades in the 90's, 00's and barring a miracle the 2010's. That will be 1 winning decade in the last 6. Those few years in the 80's, early 90's are so far the exception of Holy Cross football the last 57 years it's not even funny. No reasonable person can use that period of time as the standard for success. What HC football has been in the PL these last 25 years (1992-2017) is basically what they were the 25 years (1961-1986) prior to joining the PL, below average. The records don't lie. What's the icing on the cake is the fact that Holy Cross's best run of success during the last 67 years came while a member of the Patriot League!! You can't make this **** up!!!

Fordham has basically followed the same time line. The only exception is their football program has been good the last 2 decades. But their hoops program has been terrible.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Probably overly ambitious given our current circumstances, but I like this schedule a lot too:



2018 HOLY CROSS FOOTBALL SCHEDULE


Date
Opponent
Location


Sept. 1
at Colgate *
Andy Kerr Stadium, Hamilton, N.Y.


Sept. 8
at Boston College
Alumni Stadium, Chestnut Hill, Mass.


Sept. 15
Yale
Fitton Field, Worcester, Mass.


Sept. 22
Dartmouth
Fitton Field, Worcester, Mass.


Sept. 29
Bucknell *
Fitton Field, Worcester, Mass.


Oct. 6
at New Hampshire
Wildcat Stadium, Durham, N.H.


Oct. 13
at Harvard
Harvard Stadium, Cambridge, Mass.


Oct. 27
Lehigh *
Fitton Field, Worcester, Mass.


Nov. 3
at Lafayette *
Fisher Stadium, Easton, Pa.


Nov. 10
Fordham *
Fitton Field, Worcester, Mass.


Nov. 17
at Georgetown *
Cooper Field, Washington, D.C.




I'll be surprised if Holy Cross doesn't start 1-7. I'll say 3-8 next year but 2-9 is definitely in the cards. Vegas total would probably be 3.5?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Reasonably, what do Colgate fans think? You might like it now but will you like the end result? Because all that matters is where Colgate is stands 1 year from now!

2018
Sept. 1 HOLY CROSS * - W
Sept. 8 at New Hampshire - L
Sept. 15 at Furman - L
Sept. 22 LAFAYETTE * - W
Sept. 29 at William & Mary - better be a toss-up
Oct. 6 at Bucknell * - W
Oct. 13 CORNELL - W
Oct. 20 Open
Oct. 27 GEORGETOWN * - W
Nov. 3 at Fordham * - W
Nov. 10 at Lehigh * - toss-up
Nov. 17 at Army West Point - Ugly L

If Colgate is legitimately a Top 15 type team next year then I could see a 8-3 with that schedule. More than likely 6 or 7 wins based on history. I still think finishing with Army is crazy. Good way to get beat up to end the end year.

[Colgate Raider Redux]

Reasonably, what do Colgate fans think? You might like it now but will you like the end result? Because all that matters is where Colgate is stands 1 year from now!

2018
Sept. 1 HOLY CROSS * - W
Sept. 8 at New Hampshire - L
Sept. 15 at Furman - L
Sept. 22 LAFAYETTE * - W
Sept. 29 at William & Mary - better be a toss-up
Oct. 6 at Bucknell * - W
Oct. 13 CORNELL - W
Oct. 20 Open
Oct. 27 GEORGETOWN * - W
Nov. 3 at Fordham * - W
Nov. 10 at Lehigh * - toss-up
Nov. 17 at Army West Point - Ugly L

If Colgate is legitimately a Top 15 type team next year then I could see a 8-3 with that schedule. More than likely 6 or 7 wins based on history. I still think finishing with Army is crazy. Good way to get beat up to end the end year.

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26598&stc=1

I'm not a homer. I just like frank analysis or reasonable speculation. As I've said, if 'gate can't do it next year, they're not likely to have as good a chance for awhile. I don't know how that translates specifically into W's in the o.o.c. part of the season. ( Duly noted, this entire group coming back didn't do so well in the o.o.c. )

( But, if I were to play your game, I would see L.U. ( coaching changes--you know the drill--what's going to happen with the D ? ) and New Hampshire ( they're not that good ) as W's . And I'd have to rx Wm & Mary and Furman the closer we get to next season. The profile of a #15 team means little to me other than being matched with an opponent you can beat in the playoffs. In the meantime, give me an acceptable margin in the Army game ?--remember we're not the Lehigh O/D. We have an O that can keep the triple option off the field for long stretches ( T.O.P ) and a D that tackles. What's an acceptable margin for PL FBS games overall ? I don't understand why you would schedule these games...talk about a come to Jesus football moment ?... D-----fence....Aug 25...L.U.... the Midshipmen.... and the Triple O....a marriage made in heaven...Oy vay!!

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I'm not a homer. I just like frank analysis or reasonable speculation. As I've said, if 'gate can't do it next year, they're not likely to have as good a chance for awhile. I don't know how that translates specifically into W's in the o.o.c. part of the season.

( But, if I were to play your game, I would see L.U. ( coaching changes--you know the drill--what's going to happen with the D ? ) and New Hampshire ( they're not that good ) as W's . And I'd have to rx Wm & Mary and Furman the closer we get to next season. On the meantime, give me an acceptable margin in the Army game ?--remember were not the Lehigh O. We have an O that can keep the triple option off the field for long stretches and a D that tackles. PL FBS games overall ? I don't understand how you handicap these games...talk about a come to Jesus football moment ?... ne D-----fence....Aug 25...L.U.... the Midshipmen.... and the Triple O....a marriage made in heaven...Oy vay!!

I don't see how can you can call Lehigh a win when Colgate is 2-6 against the Mountain Hawks this decade. Refs, not refs, no defense, etc Lehigh has had your number. In fact, Lehigh's offense has lit up the Raider defense for 30, 42, 45, 41 points the last 4 meetings. You can say the refs lost cost the game this year but the defense clearly didn't help nor did Matthews' ball security. The Raiders still need to figure out how to stop Mayes and Bragalone next year.

New Hampshire has lost something like 7 games in Durham since the start of the 2004 season. I know Colgate won up there in 2015 but the odds are stacked severely against them. Hell, ranked CAA teams lose up there all the time. If Colgate got the Wildcats in Hamilton then I'd call that game a toss-op. Because like you, I don't think UNH is all that great either if you can get them out of their hole "up there". That stadium is still mediocre for the money they spent.

I have to believe there will finally be changes on the Lehigh defense after this year. The embarrassment level reached a new high and it hangs over the team like a black cloud. Barring some miraculous performance against Stony Brook expect to see some real changes. Even so, Navy is going to destroy Lehigh.

As for Army-Colgate. You can't keep the option off the field if you don't get first downs. Army's defense is pretty good by FBS standards. Monken has been able to recruit bigger, more physical guys in the trenches. They beat a healthy Chase Edmonds and Fordham team 66-6 to start the year. They beat Lafayette 62-7 last year. Furman is the most physical team Colgate played this year and the Paladins absolutely destroyed the Raiders on both lines of scrimmage. Buffalo's OL rolled the Raider front 7 in the first half too. Colgate will do better than Fordham and Lafayette did but not by all that much. My guess is Army 52-17 assuming Monken returns. I find it interesting that Army finishes next year against Lafayette and Colgate. That's kind of weak on their part imo.

The league figures to be terrible next year outside of Lehigh and Colgate imo. Lafayette is the best hope for a 3rd team with a pulse. Holy Cross and Fordham are going to get beat up by tough schedules and program overhauls. Bucknell and Georgetown offer very little...

[Sader87]

'87,

I know you like to point to the downfall of HC athletics coming in 30-40 years ago but from the outside I think the actual change occurred sometime in the late 50's, early 60's. Overall, though it's not like Holy Cross had any prolonged success in football or men's basketball. Holy Cross had a 10 year run from the mid 40's until the mid 50's of true national relevance in basketball. Doggie Julian took over a program that was terrible for its first 40 years of existence and won a national title in year two. The Crusaders would ride the wave of momentum for another 10 years. They had a 3 year run in the early 60's of NIT bids before completely falling off the map completely for about 10-15 years. Blaney had some nice years in the 1970's but they never won a NCAA Tournament game. He was in Worcester for a long period of time but accomplished next to nothing on a national level. I know Holy Cross received an invite to the Big East but they were far from a power at the time. Villanova, DePaul and Notre Dame were the Catholic schools that were competing for Final 4s by then. The Crusaders have not won a NCAA Tournament game since 1953. Bucknell last won a NCAA Tournament game in 2006. Lehigh last won a NCAA Tournament game in 2012.

Football had a much longer run of success than basketball years ago. The Crusaders had winning decades in the 30's, 40's and 50's. Then the 60's came and like basketball football fell of the map. Holy Cross posted losing decades in the 60's and 70's before their run the 80's. Then they proceeded to post losing decades in the 90's, 00's and barring a miracle the 2010's. That will be 1 winning decade in the last 6. Those few years in the 80's, early 90's are so far the exception of Holy Cross football the last 57 years it's not even funny. No reasonable person can use that period of time as the standard for success. What HC football has been in the PL these last 25 years (1992-2017) is basically what they were the 25 years (1961-1986) prior to joining the PL, below average. The records don't lie. What's the icing on the cake is the fact that Holy Cross's best run of success during the last 67 years came while a member of the Patriot League!! You can't make this **** up!!!

Fordham has basically followed the same time line. The only exception is their football program has been good the last 2 decades. But their hoops program has been terrible.

Have to agree to disagree....different era today obviously but Holy Cross football and basketball were at a different level than Lehigh (or other PL schools beside Colgate in football) in the 60s and 70s. Were we Penn St in football or UCLA in hoop? Obviously no, but HC was playing Penn St and Syracuse at Fitton into the 60s and 70s and the hoop team was nationally ranked as late as 1978.

The football team was on a trajectory to be a FCS power annually as they were very strong at that level from 1981 (year they transitioned to FCS) to 1991 (last year of football scholarships)....it was a good solid decade of Holy Cross being in the Top 20 at that level, not a couple years here and there. There is a direct correlation between how/why HC football dropped...the dropping of scholarships.

Been saying it for a decade but HC was always a poor fit for the Patriot League....we never really understood how to be a non-scholarship program. Nothing against the PL but it was a difficult and ultimately unsuccessful transition for Holy Cross football during the non-scholarship-era.

[RichH2]

Have to agree to disagree....different era today obviously but Holy Cross football and basketball were at a different level than Lehigh (or other PL schools beside Colgate in football) in the 60s and 70s. Were we Penn St in football or UCLA in hoop? Obviously no, but HC was playing Penn St and Syracuse at Fitton into the 60s and 70s and the hoop team was nationally ranked as late as 1978.

The football team was on a trajectory to be a FCS power annually as they were very strong at that level from 1981 (year they transitioned to FCS) to 1991 (last year of football scholarships)....it was a good solid decade of Holy Cross being in the Top 20 at that level, not a couple years here and there. There is a direct correlation between how/why HC football dropped...the dropping of scholarships.

Been saying it for a decade but HC was always a poor fit for the Patriot League....we never really understood how to be a non-scholarship program. Nothing against the PL but it was a difficult and ultimately unsuccessful transition for Holy Cross football during the non-scholarship-era.

A broken record 87. owl is correct. The record defines who you were and are. Your speculation on what might have been is just that. It is not proof of what you were. Holy Cross is an excellent fit for the PL academically and athletically. What is relevant is who we all are now, not what we were 30 years ago.

[CFBfan]

Colgate's 2018 Schedule:

2018
Sept. 1 HOLY CROSS *
Sept. 8 at New Hampshire
Sept. 15 at Furman
Sept. 22 LAFAYETTE *
Sept. 29 at William & Mary
Oct. 6 at Bucknell *
Oct. 13 CORNELL
Oct. 20 Open
Oct. 27 GEORGETOWN *
Nov. 3 at Fordham *
Nov. 10 at Lehigh *
Nov. 17 at Army West Point

LOVE LOVE LOVE IT

@ West Point 1 week before a potential 1st round playoff game is just plain stupid!!!

flip flop Army & Cornell and it makes more sense

[Colgate Raider Redux]

Holy Cross is an excellent fit for the PL academically and athletically. What is relevant is who we all are now, not what we were 30 years ago.

Agree that having another institution, H.C., that shares some global characteristics with other P.L.institutions today makes scheduling easier for everyone, i.e. 6 of 11 games are spoken for at the get-go.

Disagree that H.C. brings much else, beyond scheduling convenience to the P.L. circa 2017. Look closely and you'll see a suspect governance structure that, given its product and target market, has made some serious strategic mistakes affecting who/what H.C. is currently, vis-a-vis its historical position with other PL institutions.

I'd call Sader87's bluff/bluster in a nanosecond...In H.C.'s current state, "Go find another conference ?."
Give me a break!!!

Forget, for the moment, the other things that bind us in the P.L.. For argument's sake.....the opportunity to schedule five o.o.c. games is pretty sweet, if you want to refine who you are as an institution. At this point, 87 is an ungrateful parasite!

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

@ West Point 1 week before a potential 1st round playoff game is just plain stupid!!!

flip flop Army & Cornell and it makes more sense

Lafayette plays Army the week before Lehigh! Nothing like taking a butt whopping at Michie to prepare you for #154!! Can you say 4 in row?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Any word on Lehigh's 2018 slate? I believe Villanova returns to Goodman for the second year in a row. Princeton should also return iirc.

[Go...gate]

As articulated by Yale's athletic director, the plan would be to play a December game. Probably in Florida.

Source?

[Sader87]

Agree that having another institution, H.C., that shares some global characteristics with other P.L.institutions today makes scheduling easier for everyone, i.e. 6 of 11 games are spoken for at the get-go.

Disagree that H.C. brings much else, beyond scheduling convenience to the P.L. circa 2017. Look closely and you'll see a suspect governance structure that, given its product and target market, has made some serious strategic mistakes affecting who/what H.C. is currently, vis-a-vis its historical position with other Pl institutions.

I'd call Sader87's bluff/bluster in a nanosecond...In H.C.'s current state, "Go find another conference ?."
Give me a break!!!

Forget, for the moment, the other things that bind us in the P.L.. For argument's sake.....the opportunity to schedule five o.o.c. games is pretty sweet, if you want to refine who you are as an institution. At this point, 87 is an ungrateful parasite!

LOL....I love vitriol!!!

It is what it is....Holy Cross will remain in the PL but you yourself CRR recognize that HC made administrative mistakes in league affiliations.

Holy Cross, like our Catholic cousins GTown, Fordham and Villanova, should nevah have gone "all in" on the Colonial now Patriot League. We should be some sort of hybrid in hoop and football like those schools today...Big East/PL, Big East/CAA. A-10/PL etc...

[Go...gate]

@ West Point 1 week before a potential 1st round playoff game is just plain stupid!!!

flip flop Army & Cornell and it makes more sense

Cornell is the only Ivy that will play us any more, and the game is traditionally in October. Army, though another traditional rival, has played us all over the calendar.

[Go...gate]

LOL....I love vitriol!!!

It is what it is....Holy Cross will remain in the PL but you yourself CRR recognize that HC made administrative mistakes in league affiliations.

Holy Cross, like our Catholic cousins GTown, Fordham and Villanova, should nevah have gone "all in" on the Colonial now Patriot League. We should be some sort of hybrid in hoop and football like those schools today...Big East/PL, Big East/CAA. A-10/PL etc...

Did not realize that HC's selectivity had dropped to 39%. WTH happened?

[Colgate Raider Redux]

Did not realize that HC's selectivity had dropped to 39%. WTH happened?

To put Sader87's beef about the PL in a broader context. the decision for H.C. to join the PL may have been an institutional miscalculation. It was, however, a reflection of what H.C. wanted to be as an INSTITUTION. And, as I've pointed out, the affirmation of the PL by HC leadership at he time parallels a number of other decisions that, in retrospect, seem like serious miscalculations. ( 1. failure to generate geographical diversification and 2. inability to maintain its selectivity via stable application flows, i.e. acceptance rate implosion, are the most striking. ) The H.C. leadership didn't grasp their vulnerability to the changing environmemt in which they operated. That said, it's extremely bizarre for Sader87 to place blame on the PL for the decline of HC's athletic brand. Who's to say the H.C. leadership wouldn't have continued to miscalculate as members of the scholarship Big East or A-10. ? ...They could have quit the PL decades ago. HC catalyzed bball schollies like Fordham did with PL football schollies. Its alums claim that over the years HC didn't financially support its football team like other PL teams. Nor was it an advocate for fb schollies like Colgate and Lehigh. Then H.C. initially. dragged its feet on providing the full allowable 60 fb schollies. They've been all over the map. There is no doubt H.C. has had a more complex identity challenge than many of the other PL schools. But, that's not on the PL.

In Sader87's own words: http://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/SeamusLight/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Sader87http://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/SeamusLight/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?p=2575020#post2575020)"...much of our problem athletically (and our subsequent slippage in brand academically to an extent) can be placed on administrative missteps in the late 1970s and 1980s..."

[RichH2]

Agree that having another institution, H.C., that shares some global characteristics with other P.L.institutions today makes scheduling easier for everyone, i.e. 6 of 11 games are spoken for at the get-go.

Disagree that H.C. brings much else, beyond scheduling convenience to the P.L. circa 2017. Look closely and you'll see a suspect governance structure that, given its product and target market, has made some serious strategic mistakes affecting who/what H.C. is currently, vis-a-vis its historical position with other Pl institutions.

I'd call Sader87's bluff/bluster in a nanosecond...In H.C.'s current state, "Go find another conference ?."
Give me a break!!!

Forget, for the moment, the other things that bind us in the P.L.. For argument's sake.....the opportunity to schedule five o.o.c. games is pretty sweet, if you want to refine who you are as an institution. At this point, 87 is an ungrateful parasite!
As to governance you are a bit late to that dance. Cross suffered for many years. A remarkable man and a founder of this league. He envisioned an academic conference and Cross governance was structured to achieve that goal. Common knowledge that their Admissions and football did not agree on who s/b in the school. Athletics was subordinated to the academic goals much like Lafayette. Gradually, over the last 5 years athletics has become less of a pale afterthought. Pine has developed a working relationship with the College to facilitate the admission of qualified students who are also excellent athletes. I have little doubt he will hire a young capable HC. Time will tell.
You really should save this argument as to fit for Boston U and Loyola.

[Go...gate]

As to governance you are a bit late to that dance. Cross suffered for many years. A remarkable man and a founder of this league. He envisioned an academic conference and Cross governance was structured to achieve that goal. Common knowledge that their Admissions and football did not agree on who s/b in the school. Athletics was subordinated to the academic goals much like Lafayette. Gradually, over the last 5 years athletics has become less of a pale afterthought. Pine has developed a working relationship with the College to facilitate the admission of qualified students who are also excellent athletes. I have little doubt he will hire a young capable HC. Time will tell.
You really should save this argument as to fit for Boston U and Loyola.

The true outlier. No reason they should ever have been admitted to the League.

[Pards Rule]

Lafayette plays Army the week before Lehigh! Nothing like taking a butt whopping at Michie to prepare you for #154!! Can you say 4 in row?

Didnt LU go to Idaho week before Lafayette in 1995, lose 77-0, and still win the Rivalry game after coming back from a 30-14 deficit in what late 3rd or early fourth and then win in double OT, 37-30?

[Lehigh'98]

Didnt LU go to Idaho week before Lafayette in 1995, lose 77-0, and still win the Rivalry game after coming back from a 30-14 deficit in what late 3rd or early fourth and then win in double OT, 37-30?

that was 93 I think. Lehigh did win that year.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Didnt LU go to Idaho week before Lafayette in 1995, lose 77-0, and still win the Rivalry game after coming back from a 30-14 deficit in what late 3rd or early fourth and then win in double OT, 37-30?

1993 and it was 77-14

That Idaho team played basketball on turf with Doug Nussmeier at QB. It was similar to the run-n-shoot under OC Scott Linehan. Nussmeier won the Payton Award in '93 as the Vandals lit up defenses all season all. UI put 38, 66, 56, 28 (W of FBS Utah), 56, 49, 35, 34, 34, 77, 49 in the regular season. They ultimately lost to a loaded YSU team in the semifinals of the playoffs. Idaho didn't beat up Lehigh. They just ran them off the field at the Kibbie Dome. How that game was ever scheduled is beyond me.

Army will beat up on Lafayette for 60 minutes. The effects will last far longer.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I still want to know what caused Holy Cross athletics to tail off in the late 50's, early 60's. There's a clearly defined drop-off in performance in men's basketball and football during that time. I'd be interested to know what older alums believe caused it. From the outside, I could hypothesize the point shaving scandals of the 1950's turned the Holy Cross administration sour on "big time athletics".

[Go...gate]

That was the catch "in the gloaming" year.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

That was the catch "in the gloaming" year.

"The Catch" year was 1995. Lehigh dominated Lafayette 39-14 in 1993 on the way to their first PL title. Semptimphelter and Cecchini had big games that year. I remember getting home just in time to see #1 ND take the lead against BC. Then watched BC kick the game winning FG moments later.

[DFW HOYA]

What HC football has been in the PL these last 25 years (1992-2017) is basically what they were the 25 years (1961-1986) prior to joining the PL, below average. The records don't lie.

Composite record, 1961-1986: 121-137-9 (.460)
Composite record, 1992-2017: 111-168-1 (.397)

[LehighU11]

The true outlier. No reason they should ever have been admitted to the League.

I suppose that most of the disdain here for Loyola stems from their higher acceptance rate. Fair enough. However, I have a different perspective. I went through the flagship high school for the Archdiocese of Philadelphia. Each year several students head to each of Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, and Fordham. A few more go on to Ivies and the service academies. Naturally, plenty enroll at Villanova. For a number of years, more students in the top 10% of the class matriculated at Loyola than any other private school. Those students (including some soccer and lax players) were accepted/easily could have been accepted into PL schools. I could not say the same for those attending Villanova, who most here would have no qualms about admitting into the League.

I see Loyola as an academic institution on the rise, with athletic programs and an undergraduate population that are a good fit for the Patriot League. BU, on the other hand, seems to be the outlier as it has nearly the same number of undergrads as Lehigh, Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross, and Lafayette combined.

[Sader87]

Composite record, 1961-1986: 121-137-9 (.460)
Composite record, 1992-2017: 111-168-1 (.397)

Composite record, 1982 (1st year dropped down to 1-AA)- 1991 (last year of scholarships): 89-19-3 (.824)

Point being, HC had a very good model for successful scholarship football at the 1-AA level before they were dropped in 1992.

[Go...gate]

"The Catch" year was 1995. Lehigh dominated Lafayette 39-14 in 1993 on the way to their first PL title. Semptimphelter and Cecchini had big games that year. I remember getting home just in time to see #1 ND take the lead against BC. Then watched BC kick the game winning FG moments later.

That's right - my bad. 1993 was the year LaFair had a great game as a TE for Lehigh.

[Go...gate]

I suppose that most of the disdain here for Loyola stems from their higher acceptance rate. Fair enough. However, I have a different perspective. I went through the flagship high school for the Archdiocese of Philadelphia. Each year several students head to each of Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell, and Fordham. A few more go on to Ivies and the service academies. Naturally, plenty enroll at Villanova. For a number of years, more students in the top 10% of the class matriculated at Loyola than any other private school. Those students (including some soccer and lax players) were accepted/easily could have been accepted into PL schools. I could not say the same for those attending Villanova, who most here would have no qualms about admitting into the League.

I see Loyola as an academic institution on the rise, with athletic programs and an undergraduate population that are a good fit for the Patriot League. BU, on the other hand, seems to be the outlier as it has nearly the same number of undergrads as Lehigh, Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross, and Lafayette combined.

They may be a school on the rise now, but they have long way to go. My memory of Loyola (which was called Loyola-Baltimore back in the day) was that if one was a Catholic youngster and could not get admitted anywhere else, Loyola would be only too happy to admit them.

[Go...gate]

They may be a school on the rise now, but they have long way to go. My memory of Loyola (which was called Loyola-Baltimore back in the day) was that if one was a Catholic youngster and could not get admitted anywhere else, Loyola would be only too happy to admit them.

BU is indeed a large school, but it has always had a solid (and in a number of programs, stellar) academic profile.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Composite record, 1982 (1st year dropped down to 1-AA)- 1991 (last year of scholarships): 89-19-3 (.824)

Point being, HC had a very good model for successful scholarship football at the 1-AA level before they were dropped in 1992.

Lehigh's record from 1998-2006 was 84-20 (.807). That stretch includes 5 PL Titles and 3 undefeated regular seasons.

Final TSN Ranking
1998 #7
1999 #14
2000 #8
2001 #5
2003 #23
2004 #15

This era for Lehigh is favorable to HC's run. Lehigh had a really good model for high level non-scholarship football. Lehigh also had a really good model prior to joining the PL. That model resulted in a D2 National title, 1-AA Final appearance and numerous other playoff appearances. Unfortunately, the PL also hurt Lehigh. It took the Engineers then Mountain Hawks a decade to become relevant nationally again.

Basically, Lehigh is better at running a football program than Holy Cross. And it's been like that for a long time. A time that pre-exists the PL.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Composite record, 1961-1986: 121-137-9 (.460)
Composite record, 1992-2017: 111-168-1 (.397)

Proves how bad they were in the 60's an 70's. A run of 9,10,11 win seasons still couldn't get them within 10 games of .500.

[ngineer]

As to governance you are a bit late to that dance. Cross suffered for many years. A remarkable man and a founder of this league. He envisioned an academic conference and Cross governance was structured to achieve that goal. Common knowledge that their Admissions and football did not agree on who s/b in the school. Athletics was subordinated to the academic goals much like Lafayette. Gradually, over the last 5 years athletics has become less of a pale afterthought. Pine has developed a working relationship with the College to facilitate the admission of qualified students who are also excellent athletes. I have little doubt he will hire a young capable HC. Time will tell.
You really should save this argument as to fit for Boston U and Loyola.

Hopefully, it aint Cecchini!

[Sader87]

Lehigh's record from 1998-2006 was 84-20 (.807). That stretch includes 5 PL Titles and 3 undefeated regular seasons.

Final TSN Ranking
1998 #7
1999 #14
2000 #8
2001 #5
2003 #23
2004 #15

This era for Lehigh is favorable to HC's run. Lehigh had a really good model for high level non-scholarship football. Lehigh also had a really good model prior to joining the PL. That model resulted in a D2 National title, 1-AA Final appearance and numerous other playoff appearances. Unfortunately, the PL also hurt Lehigh. It took the Engineers then Mountain Hawks a decade to become relevant nationally again.

Basically, Lehigh is better at running a football program than Holy Cross. And it's been like that for a long time. A time that pre-exists the PL.

It is what it is....Holy Cross was a much stronger football program than Lehigh for much of the 20th Century....playing at a higher level than Lehigh. I don't begrudge that Lehigh was a very good program at the D2 level but more often than not, HC would have beaten Lehigh badly from the 1940s through the 1980s.

It took HC dropping scholarships to tip the scales in the Engineers favor.

[carney2]

Something in this thread triggered the thought that Fordham left the Patriot League in all things except football so that they could play big time basketball. Who knows, I guess it could still happen.

[Go...gate]

Something in this thread triggered the thought that Fordham left the Patriot League in all things except football so that they could play big time basketball. Who knows, I guess it could still happen.

One of the bigger mistakes Fordham ever made. Ironic that the Rams have made the NCAA only once since their great 1970-71 year under Digger Phelps - and they made the field as a member of the PL.

[Go...gate]

It is what it is....Holy Cross was a much stronger football program than Lehigh for much of the 20th Century....playing at a higher level than Lehigh. I don't begrudge that Lehigh was a very good program at the D2 level but more often than not, HC would have beaten Lehigh badly from the 1940s through the 1980s.

It took HC dropping scholarships to tip the scales in the Engineers favor.

Comparing Division I to Division II/College Division is like comparing apples and oranges. College Football was a very different world. Few of us are old enough to remember this, however.

[Sader87]

Comparing Division I to Division II/College Division is like comparing apples and oranges. College Football was a very different world. Few of us are old enough to remember this, however.

Not old enough to remember much of this era, but do you really think Lehigh football was superior to Holy Cross football from say 1946 to 1986?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Not old enough to remember much of this era, but do you really think Lehigh football was superior to Holy Cross football from say 1946 to 1986?

Lehigh, Delaware and maybe Umass (??) were every bit as good as Holy Cross and other low level Division I schools in the 70's. The gap really closed considerably during that decade. Holy Cross, Colgate, Rutgers, Villanova, Richmond, William & Mary, Virginia, Temple, Boston College, The Ivies, Syracuse etc. weren't that much better in any aspect than the elite D2 programs of the time. Facilities weren't that much different. Taylor Stadium and The Tub were Division I worthy. Heck, Rutgers played most of their home games at a 25k or so seat stadium until the end of the 1991 season iirc.

Lehigh football prior to the 1970's was not very good. Lafayette was the dominant program in the 20's, 30's and 40's.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The Original Rutgers Stadium. I vaguely remember this place.

http://kenlew.com/collections/postcards/ru/075-l.jpg

[ColgateTD]

Holy Cross - Colgate was a great rivalry in the 60's and 70's (I think). Dominic Randolf ate up all opposition teams and beat Gate four years (I believe). This was the last game of the season for awhile, then the PL changed everything. Wish the HC-Gate rivalry were brought back as the last game; it's a natural finisher to the season for both teams.

[RichH2]

Comparing Division I to Division II/College Division is like comparing apples and oranges. College Football was a very different world. Few of us are old enough to remember this, however.

I am tho. Impossible to compare the eras. The football lanscape is just too different. Admit tho I am tired of the annual Holy Cross was great threads.

[TheValleyRaider]

Holy Cross - Colgate was a great rivalry in the 60's and 70's (I think). Dominic Randolf ate up all opposition teams and beat Gate four years (I believe). This was the last game of the season for awhile, then the PL changed everything. Wish the HC-Gate rivalry were brought back as the last game; it's a natural finisher to the season for both teams.

Definitely not all 4 years, as we beat the Cross for the League title in 2009. I think he was only 2-2 against us

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Definitely not all 4 years, as we beat the Cross for the League title in 2009. I think he was only 2-2 against us

2008
Colgate then lost to UNH in the playoffs

2009
HC and then narrowly lost to 'Nova in the playoffs

[TheValleyRaider]

2008
Colgate then lost to UNH in the playoffs

2009
HC and then narrowly lost to 'Nova in the playoffs

A correction to the correction. Yes, the game I was thinking of was 2008

[DFW HOYA]

One cannot speak about the relative athletic declines of Holy Cross without discussing changes in leadership that changed the course of these schools.

In the late 1960's, there was little doubt that Holy Cross was the preeminent Catholic University in New England. Fairfield was an afterthought, Providence was a local school with little recognition beyond basketball, and Boston College was a commuter school which was on the verge of being shut down--its debt was five times its endowment. The situation was so dire for BC that the Archdiocese was approached about buying the land if it went bankrupt.

Both schools faced a change of presidents. HC opted to stay within the college and elevated John Brooks, who sought to mold HC as a great college in the mold of New England's storied liberal arts colleges - Amherst, Williams, Bowdoin. Athletics was not a concern to Brooks, as was evident by his now famous quote that his college "was not in the entertainment business" . Over at Boston College, they recruited the dean at LeMoyne, J. Donald Monan, who elevated BC to become not just a great New England college, but a great national university. Today's BC student is far more likely to identify his/her rival school as Notre Dame or Georgetown than Holy Cross, and athletics gets the BC brand in front of kids nationwide that an admissions brochure for HC never will.

In the 1960's, Fordham was considered by many the preeminent Jesuit University in the nation, with the core of the nation's Catholic leadership headquartered in New York. When the tumultous tenure of Leo McLaughlin came to a close, Fordham passed on its executive VP, a protege of McLaughlin, to select instead a former president at Boston College, Michael Walsh. As New York faltered in the 1970's, Fordham followed, but never regained its position of importance.

And that Fordham EVP that was passed over way back when? He left during Fr. Walsh's administration for a administrative job at City University of New York. Four years later, he got a call from another Jesuit university with deficit spending, 50% admission rates, and an endowment of $14 million. The meteoric rise of Georgetown into the nation's top 20-25 schools is due in no small part to Timothy Healy S.J. and his protege, current GU president Jack DeGioia.

Leadership matters. If Holy Cross is going to become great again, it won't be because Tom Gilmore's successor wishes it to be so. It starts with Rev. Philip Boroughs and what his vision for the College will be. It probably won't become BC West, but it need not be the Catholic version of Amherst, either.

[Pards Rule]

1993 and it was 77-14

That Idaho team played basketball on turf with Doug Nussmeier at QB. It was similar to the run-n-shoot under OC Scott Linehan. Nussmeier won the Payton Award in '93 as the Vandals lit up defenses all season all. UI put 38, 66, 56, 28 (W of FBS Utah), 56, 49, 35, 34, 34, 77, 49 in the regular season. They ultimately lost to a loaded YSU team in the semifinals of the playoffs. Idaho didn't beat up Lehigh. They just ran them off the field at the Kibbie Dome. How that game was ever scheduled is beyond me.

Army will beat up on Lafayette for 60 minutes. The effects will last far longer.


Thx Owl...I recall thinking why would they go all the way out there the week before LC game..Didnt matter in 1993.

[Go...gate]

The Original Rutgers Stadium. I vaguely remember this place.

http://kenlew.com/collections/postcards/ru/075-l.jpg

I saw a lot of games here with my father, brother and friends. A great place to watch a football game. The present facility does not have the same atmosphere at all - a cookie-cutter erector set with obnoxious fans to match.

[Go...gate]

Not old enough to remember much of this era, but do you really think Lehigh football was superior to Holy Cross football from say 1946 to 1986?

No, I do not.

[Go...gate]

Holy Cross - Colgate was a great rivalry in the 60's and 70's (I think). Dominic Randolf ate up all opposition teams and beat Gate four years (I believe). This was the last game of the season for awhile, then the PL changed everything. Wish the HC-Gate rivalry were brought back as the last game; it's a natural finisher to the season for both teams.

A great rivalry going back far earlier than that. Damn, I'm getting older by the second!

[Colgate Raider Redux]

One cannot speak about the relative athletic declines of Holy Cross without discussing changes in leadership that changed the course of these schools.........
Leadership matters. If Holy Cross is going to become great again, it won't be because Tom Gilmore's successor wishes it to be so. It starts with Rev. Philip Boroughs and what his vision for the College will be. It probably won't become BC West, but it need not be the Catholic version of Amherst, either.

Thanks Hoya. Interesting post. This history underscores the impression that I've gotten that one of H.C.'s largest overriding challenges is the lack of a clear identity of what it is and what it wants to become ? As you say, changing the athletic brand, alone, isn't going to do it for them. Their failure to increase their overall student body geographic diversification jumps out at me. The failure of their leadership to recognize the danger to H.C. of the decline of college-aged kids coming from New England/Massachusetts in recent decades ( and to do anything about its dependence on this geographical area ) is striking. That colossal oversight blunder seems so similar to the neglect by their leadership ( post Fr Brooks ) of its athletic brand, including maintaining facilities and creating minimal expectations frothier coaches, etc.. H.C. today strikes me as much more of a small regional ( Catholic ) college than a national liberal arts college. As such, that explains some of the discomfort that Sader87 inartfully expresses of H.C.'s fit within the PL. They really have become a "fish out of water" in more things than just athletics.( PL schools didn't jog in place while H.C. rested. ) The range of ideas of what they are and what they should aspire to be as an insitution seems unusualy large among its alums compared to most other institutions of its size of which I'm familiar. What do you think their niche should be going forward ?

[LehighU11]

One cannot speak about the relative athletic declines of Holy Cross without discussing changes in leadership that changed the course of these schools.

In the late 1960's, there was little doubt that Holy Cross was the preeminent Catholic University in New England. Fairfield was an afterthought, Providence was a local school with little recognition beyond basketball, and Boston College was a commuter school which was on the verge of being shut down--its debt was five times its endowment. The situation was so dire for BC that the Archdiocese was approached about buying the land if it went bankrupt.

Both schools faced a change of presidents. HC opted to stay within the college and elevated John Brooks, who sought to mold HC as a great college in the mold of New England's storied liberal arts colleges - Amherst, Williams, Bowdoin. Athletics was not a concern to Brooks, as was evident by his now famous quote that his college "was not in the entertainment business" . Over at Boston College, they recruited the dean at LeMoyne, J. Donald Monan, who elevated BC to become not just a great New England college, but a great national university. Today's BC student is far more likely to identify his/her rival school as Notre Dame or Georgetown than Holy Cross, and athletics gets the BC brand in front of kids nationwide that an admissions brochure for HC never will.

In the 1960's, Fordham was considered by many the preeminent Jesuit University in the nation, with the core of the nation's Catholic leadership headquartered in New York. When the tumultous tenure of Leo McLaughlin came to a close, Fordham passed on its executive VP, a protege of McLaughlin, to select instead a former president at Boston College, Michael Walsh. As New York faltered in the 1970's, Fordham followed, but never regained its position of importance.

And that Fordham EVP that was passed over way back when? He left during Fr. Walsh's administration for a administrative job at City University of New York. Four years later, he got a call from another Jesuit university with deficit spending, 50% admission rates, and an endowment of $14 million. The meteoric rise of Georgetown into the nation's top 20-25 schools is due in no small part to Timothy Healy S.J. and his protege, current GU president Jack DeGioia.

Leadership matters. If Holy Cross is going to become great again, it won't be because Tom Gilmore's successor wishes it to be so. It starts with Rev. Philip Boroughs and what his vision for the College will be. It probably won't become BC West, but it need not be the Catholic version of Amherst, either.

A very insightful post that explains the current landscape of Catholic institutions of higher education in the Northeast. Surprisingly, I had never heard of Holy Cross prior to watching them trounce Lehigh at Goodman in 2007, despite 13 years of education in the Archdiocese of Philadelphia system. My Latin teacher was even a Jesuit. I have heard similar remarks from relatives from the Philly and Buffalo areas that attended Catholic schools and universities. I know of one person from this area to attend HC: a football player who attended a public school that has produced a plethora of D1 talent, including Pat Devlin and the Lauletta brothers. However, I know of many students who have gone on to BC, Georgetown, and Fordham.

Perhaps the presence of several Catholic universities in the Philadelphia metro area, including another Jesuit university (St. Joe's-albeit not a peer to HC), has historically dissuaded HC from recruiting in PA. Regardless, geographical diversification (as CRR put it) is critical in this era. Lehigh has significantly increased recruiting efforts on the West Coast in recent years, with a physical presence in both San Mateo and San Francisco. While HC is different institutionally, it seems as though it may be wise to make more of an effort to branch out of New England.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

With the season officially over and Lehigh's defense in shambles I think it's safe to say Colgate enters next year as the betting favorite. Given some of the OOC schedules will the league be any better next year? I'm fearing another year with 1 team with a winning record.

[Go...gate]

With the season officially over and Lehigh's defense in shambles I think it's safe to say Colgate enters next year as the betting favorite. Given some of the OOC schedules will the league be any better next year? I'm fearing another year with 1 team with a winning record.

Any idea what the Engineer OOC schedule will look like next year besides Annapolis?

[RichH2]

Any idea what the Engineer OOC schedule will look like next year besides Annapolis?

Navy
St.Francis
Nova
Princeton
Penn
LU now has 2 byes during OOC schedule.

[CFBfan]

With the season officially over and Lehigh's defense in shambles I think it's safe to say Colgate enters next year as the betting favorite. Given some of the OOC schedules will the league be any better next year? I'm fearing another year with 1 team with a winning record.

very sad how 5 years in the PL as a whole has completely blown the oppty of being a scholie league. giving schol's to coaches who don't know what they are doing is like giving a credit card to a kid.
look what ODU did in the same time frame and they had NO football program!

[RichH2]

very sad how 5 years in the PL as a whole has completely blown the oppty of being a scholie league. giving schol's to coaches who don't know what they are doing is like giving a credit card to a kid.
look what ODU did in the same time frame and they had NO football program!

A bit over the top. Clear PL staffs had a lot to learn about transitioning to schollie recruiting. Current verbal and last 2 classes have improved each year. Tough to be competitive OOC when most of your best players are underclassmen.

[CFBfan]

A bit over the top. Clear PL staffs had a lot to learn about transitioning to schollie recruiting. Current verbal and last 2 classes have improved each year. Tough to be competitive OOC when most of your best players are underclassmen.

I disagree it's been 5 years and they are not being asked to clone sheep

[RichH2]

I disagree it's been 5 years and they are not being asked to clone sheep
No doubt . We all wish PL staffs had done better. Serves little purpose to bitch about the past. PL will improve over the next few years. It will never be as competitive top to nottom as CAA or MVFC. Nor as consistent at the top level w/o some changes to redshirting rules, roster caps and schollie cap.

[Doc QB]

No doubt . We all wish PL staffs had done better. Serves little purpose to bitch about the past. PL will improve over the next few years. It will never be as competitive top to nottom as CAA or MVFC. Nor as consistent at the top level w/o some changes to redshirting rules, roster caps and schollie cap.

While those three issues are a bit of a handicap, they cant be used as a crutch forever. We have done it before. There is no reason a scholarship PL shouldn't more consistently have teams resemble the Higgins/Lembo era and the Cecchini/Lum years at Lehigh. Those teams had some special players for sure, but we have seen similar guys fairly consistently, and would hope to see at least some more with scholarships.

For Lehigh, those runs came with better coaching, particularly on defense. No one would argue that. The offenses the past few years matched up pretty similarly to those great Lehigh teams for sure. So, need-based aid, the AI, roster cap, RS issue didn't hamper us in the past when we had better coaches, better talent evaluators, better game-planning. You posted on the LU board that our defensive coaching isn't a reflection of mostly DIII staff guys. I would argue some of our struggles certainly are. A DIII coordinator turn PL position coach is reasonable ascent. A DIII position coach to come to PL as the same can often be more of a tall order experience-wise, as those guys are usually very young and green (AND were part-time coaches per the rules). Some of that is on Lehigh not paying enough for coordinators and position coaches to keep high level guys on staff and not looking elsewhere (Folmar). The programs who have improved lately have bigger assistant budgets, and as a result, coordinators who were once HC, coordinators at higher levels, more experienced guys. Check the coaching rosters of a few programs with which we want to compete. Its not a secret.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Navy
St.Francis
Nova
Princeton
Penn
LU now has 2 byes during OOC schedule.

An extremely challenging OOC schedule. FBS, Nova, NEC recent playoff team/champ contender, Princeton/Penn likely Ivy title contenders. There isn't a guaranteed win among them.

[ColgateTD]

While those three issues are a bit of a handicap, they cant be used as a crutch forever. We have done it before.

Geez....in 2003 Gate went to Chattanooga, and that was before the schollie era. Maybe we should go back to the old days.

[Neighbor2]

I really DO believe this is a coaching matter. Going into battle against higher quality teams without all the necessary tools, and with recruiting restrictions more limiting than what your opponents face, creates a scenario that requires experienced and creative-thinking coaches. The staff needs excellent and reliable recruiting contacts around the country. Playing 'up' requires designing a game plan different than the one used all season, and the ability to make game day changes quickly. Of course, active and enthusiastic sideline demeanor doesn't hurt.

Considering all of the above, the Patriot League should probably offer much better salary and conditions. I mean, really, what makes a Patriot League football coaching position desirable for anyone making a lateral move? Not to mention, getting the attention of a young MAC-level assistant, or similar.

[RichH2]

While those three issues are a bit of a handicap, they cant be used as a crutch forever. We have done it before. There is no reason a scholarship PL shouldn't more consistently have teams resemble the Higgins/Lembo era and the Cecchini/Lum years at Lehigh. Those teams had some special players for sure, but we have seen similar guys fairly consistently, and would hope to see at least some more with scholarships.

For Lehigh, those runs came with better coaching, particularly on defense. No one would argue that. The offenses the past few years matched up pretty similarly to those great Lehigh teams for sure. So, need-based aid, the AI, roster cap, RS issue didn't hamper us in the past when we had better coaches, better talent evaluators, better game-planning. You posted on the LU board that our defensive coaching isn't a reflection of mostly DIII staff guys. I would argue some of our struggles certainly are. A DIII coordinator turn PL position coach is reasonable ascent. A DIII position coach to come to PL as the same can often be more of a tall order experience-wise, as those guys are usually very young and green (AND were part-time coaches per the rules). Some of that is on Lehigh not paying enough for coordinators and position coaches to keep high level guys on staff and not looking elsewhere (Folmar). The programs who have improved lately have bigger assistant budgets, and as a result, coordinators who were once HC, coordinators at higher levels, more experienced guys. Check the coaching rosters of a few programs with which we want to compete. Its not a secret.

Certainly true about staff pay. We are not competitive with either Ivies or CAA with pay for assts.
Most of what you say as to Lehigh program pre and post schollie is dead on. I would hesitate tho to conclude that PL rules dont make much difference. Actually they do. Not so much with roster and schollie caps or redshirting when compared to pre era. They do impact today as to OOC.
The AI however does impact the comparison. There was no AI pre schollie. True all Lehigh admits clear the AI floor comfortably. The AI also includes bands restricting the number of low band recruits can be admitted. Combine this with the current higher admission standards at Lehigh and the talent pool we used to have is substantially smaller. Further, when PL went schollie Ivies ampdd up their recruiting substantially . These factors reduce the niche that Lehigh and the PL had. We recruit much more actively nationally to broaden the pool which has helped.
Simple reality comparing eras is that a good number of the preschollie recruits could not get into LU today. Somewhat of an excuse but it does limit the validity of comparisons.
That said the real problem with our D started when Coach K left for Stanford. What followed was poor leadership from DCs and terrible recruiting.. Sutyak has turned recruiting around. He will I think develop into a very good DC. He wasnt this year. New staff new system too many frosh on the field. Lots of reasons for the terrible D this year but to an extent it continues the ineptitude of the prior 4 years. I would term this as the 1st year of rebuilding the D to move up from the last 5 years. At least I hope so :)

[ngineer]

I think you could reduce the number of assistants and increase the pay for those who remain. Gosh, look at team photos when we played. An HC, three assistants on each side of the ball and maybe a part time special teams guy, though usually one of the assists. did that too. Now, it's like institutional education and corps...top heavy. With all these coaches, one would think the fundamentals would have improved.

[RichH2]

I think you could reduce the number of assistants and increase the pay for those who remain. Gosh, look at team photos when we played. An HC, three assistants on each side of the ball and maybe a part time special teams guy, though usually one of the assists. did that too. Now, it's like institutional education and corps...top heavy. With all these coaches, one would think the fundamentals would have improved.

Absolutely. My time we had 5 coaches and 1 frosh coach.

[carney2]

I disagree it's been 5 years and they are not being asked to clone sheep

I couldn't agree more. THE big problem is that at about the same time that the Patriot League went scholarship, the Ivy League redefined the game by doling out HUGE amounts of financial aid. Nothing changed. The balance between the Patsies and their number one recruiting foe remained largely the same. The Patsies aren't losing their key recruiting battles to the large state universities of the CAA where grades and SATs are relatively minor entrance requirements. They are now, as they have always been, losing these battles with the Ancient 8. With everything else being equal where is a solid O-Line recruit going to end up, Princeton or Lehigh?!

[DFW HOYA]

I couldn't agree more. THE big problem is that at about the same time that the Patriot League went scholarship, the Ivy League redefined the game by doling out HUGE amounts of financial aid. Nothing changed. The balance between the Patsies and their number one recruiting foe remained largely the same. The Patsies aren't losing their key recruiting battles to the large state universities of the CAA where grades and SATs are relatively minor entrance requirements. They are now, as they have always been, losing these battles with the Ancient 8. With everything else being equal where is a solid O-Line recruit going to end up, Princeton or Lehigh?!

With everything else being equal where is a solid O-Line recruit going to end up, Princeton, Lehigh... or Georgetown? As seen this season, that's self-evident.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I couldn't agree more. THE big problem is that at about the same time that the Patriot League went scholarship, the Ivy League redefined the game by doling out HUGE amounts of financial aid. Nothing changed. The balance between the Patsies and their number one recruiting foe remained largely the same. The Patsies aren't losing their key recruiting battles to the large state universities of the CAA where grades and SATs are relatively minor entrance requirements. They are now, as they have always been, losing these battles with the Ancient 8. With everything else being equal where is a solid O-Line recruit going to end up, Princeton or Lehigh?!

Which is why Lehigh should be recruiting against other leagues. I'm sorry but while the PL schools are excellent they're not the Ivies and they're not Stanford, Vanderbilt, Duke, Notre Dame, Northwestern, Wake Forest etc. in terms of national reach. The reputation of PL schools simply don't travel very well to the average person. Lafayette is basically Delaware Valley for 85% of the country and Holy Cross is some weird New England version of Liberty or BYU, That's why I don't agree with this, "The Patsies aren't losing their key recruiting battles to the large state universities of the CAA where grades and SATs are relatively minor entrance requirements". Lehigh should be focusing on "stealing" a few IL/FBS recruits and beating W&M, Villanova, Richmond, Delaware, UNH, SBU etc. for players. Those are varying degrees of good to excellent (PL level) schools. With that in mind, if PL can't accept kids and graduate them successfully then they're helluva lot better schools than the ones that comprise the PL imo. They're actually making real differences in lives rather than thumbing their noses at WELL rounded student athletes. Fordham should pack their bags for CAA if things don't get better. Their academic brand is good enough without being dragged down by the PL.

I'm with CFB and you about the excuses though. I just believe there's a lot of administration indifference and they're content to play with one arm tied behind their back to prove a point. The sad part is there is zero indication things will be any better next year. In fact, it could easily get worse.

[Go...gate]

Navy
St.Francis
Nova
Princeton
Penn
LU now has 2 byes during OOC schedule.

Damn good schedule. Well done, Mr. Sterrett.

[Go...gate]

Which is why Lehigh should be recruiting against other leagues. I'm sorry but while the PL schools are excellent they're not the Ivies and they're not Stanford, Vanderbilt, Duke, Notre Dame, Northwestern, Wake Forest etc. in terms of national reach. The reputation of PL schools simply don't travel very well to the average person. Lafayette is basically Delaware Valley for 85% of the country and Holy Cross is some weird New England version of Liberty or BYU, That's why I don't agree with this, "The Patsies aren't losing their key recruiting battles to the large state universities of the CAA where grades and SATs are relatively minor entrance requirements". Lehigh should be focusing on "stealing" a few IL/FBS recruits and beating W&M, Villanova, Richmond, Delaware, UNH, SBU etc. for players. Those are varying degrees of good to excellent (PL level) schools. With that in mind, if PL can't accept kids and graduate them successfully then they're helluva lot better schools than the ones that comprise the PL imo. They're actually making real differences in lives rather than thumbing their noses at WELL rounded student athletes. Fordham should pack their bags for CAA if things don't get better. Their academic brand is good enough without being dragged down by the PL.

I'm with CFB and you about the excuses though. I just believe there's a lot of administration indifference and they're content to play with one arm tied behind their back to prove a point. The sad part is there is zero indication things will be any better next year. In fact, it could easily get worse.

Surprised LU does not already do this. Colgate has been nationalizing its recruiting (with the help of Maroon Council) for a while now.

[RichH2]

Which is why Lehigh should be recruiting against other leagues. I'm sorry but while the PL schools are excellent they're not the Ivies and they're not Stanford, Vanderbilt, Duke, Notre Dame, Northwestern, Wake Forest etc. in terms of national reach. The reputation of PL schools simply don't travel very well to the average person. Lafayette is basically Delaware Valley for 85% of the country and Holy Cross is some weird New England version of Liberty or BYU, That's why I don't agree with this. "The Patsies aren't losing their key recruiting battles to the large state universities of the CAA where grades and SATs are relatively minor entrance requirements". Lehigh should be focusing on "stealing" a few IL/FBS recruits and beating W&M, Villanova, Richmond, Delaware, UNH, SBU etc. for players. Those are varying degrees of good to excellent (PL level) schools. With that in mind, if PL can't accept kids and graduate them successfully then they're helluva lot better schools than the ones that comprise the PL imo. They're actually making real differences in lives rather than thumbing their noses at WELL rounded student athletes. Fordham should pack their bags for CAA if things don't get better. Their academic brand is good enough without being dragged down by the PL.

I'm with CFB and you about the excuses though. I just believe there's a lot of administration indifference and they're content to play with one arm tied behind their back to prove a point. The sad part is there is zero indication things will be any better next year. In fact, it could easily get worse.

Competing with Ivies is going to happen . it is not a matter of choice that we can somehow avoid it. We go after high academic prospects. We get more now but Ivies get most. The reality from reviewing recruiting over the last 3 years is that we compete mostly against the Service Academies CAA. Ivy MAC and the Fla lower FBS. In that order. owl you really should take a look at the offer sheets for the frosh and current verbals before throwing incorrect assumptions as to who we are recruiting against.
As to PL rules I wholeheartedly agree that they serve no use except to pander to the Ivy model and save some money.
I sincerely doubt Lehigh is indifferent to success in football. Joe has done pretty well over his tenure.
5 yrs of increasingly bad D is frustrating and the successive bandaid attempts to fix the problem asinine.
I think Sutyak may be the man to do it. But like any rebuild it is not gonna happen as fast as we all want. Andy should rid him of the carry over coaches that have not performed in the past and are not likely to morph into anything more in the future.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Competing with Ivies is going to happen . it is not a matter of choice that we can somehow avoid it. We go after high academic prospects. We get more now but Ivies get most. The reality from reviewing recruiting over the last 3 years is that we compete mostly against the Service Academies CAA. Ivy MAC and the Fla lower FBS. In that order. owl you really should take a look at the offer sheets for the frosh and current verbals before throwing incorrect assumptions as to who we are recruiting against.
As to PL rules I wholeheartedly agree that they serve no use except to pander to the Ivy model and save some money.
I sincerely doubt Lehigh is indifferent to success in football. Joe has done pretty well over his tenure.
5 yrs of increasingly bad D is frustrating and the successive bandaid attempts to fix the problem asinine.
I think Sutyak may be the man to do it. But like any rebuild it is not gonna happen as fast as we all want. Andy should rid him of the carry over coaches that have not performed in the past and are not likely to morph into anything more in the future.

Rich,

I've been following the recruiting for Lehigh and I get that a lot of the Lehigh guys are getting CAA and some lower level FBS offers. My point was directed towards Carney for saying the CAA schools don't have academic standards for recruits or they severely compromise them relative to their general student population. I don't believe that for a second. IMO, the CAA schools simply have a better balance! Whatever they're doing is better and more well rounded!

All I know is Lehigh's defense stinks and I don't see it getting any better next year without a transfer or two. The DL is physically inferior to basically every other DL I've seen at this level. They have a bunch of long lean guys playing in the trenches. Cavenas was good but he was DE and would have been even better with 2 legitimate DT's. There's a reason the coaches were hesitant to move Cavenas inside. They knew all along he was built for DE! You need a guys with a low center of gravity manning your DTs. The excuse that you can't recruit wide bodies at this level is flat out false. The only truth is Lehigh has failed to do so. When I stood next to Harrison Kaufman and realized he was playing DT I just laughed. Bless that kid's heart for battling. You put Yale's Capache Tyler on this team and he's worth 2 wins.

[DFW HOYA]

Which is why Lehigh should be recruiting against other leagues. I'm sorry but while the PL schools are excellent they're not the Ivies and they're not Stanford, Vanderbilt, Duke, Notre Dame, Northwestern, Wake Forest etc. in terms of national reach.

Hmmm...

[RichH2]

Rich,

I've been following the recruiting for Lehigh and I get that a lot of the Lehigh guys are getting CAA and some lower level FBS offers. My point was directed towards Carney for saying the CAA schools don't have academic standards for recruits or they severely compromise them relative to their general student population. I don't believe that for a second. IMO, the CAA schools simply have a better balance! Whatever they're doing is better and more well rounded!

All I know is Lehigh's defense stinks and I don't see it getting any better next year without a transfer or two. The DL is physically inferior to basically every other DL I've seen at this level. They have a bunch of long lean guys playing in the trenches. Cavenas was good but he was DE and would have been even better with 2 legitimate DT's. There's a reason the coaches were hesitant to move Cavenas inside. They knew all along he was built for DE! You need a guys with a low center of gravity manning your DTs. The excuse that you can't recruit wide bodies at this level is flat out false. The only truth is Lehigh has failed to do so. When I stood next to Harrison Kaufman and realized he was playing DT I just laughed. Bless that kid's heart for battling. You put Yale's Capache Tyler on this team and he's worth 2 wins.

OK thanks. I misunderstood. Agree. CAA are good schools. I know not all that eady to get into UNH for out of state students.
As to DL we recruited for a 3 man line so we are short DTs right now. Altho even then we didnt do great at getting a NG. We have 2 DT on the roster Nace and Dooling .We need more. Kircher once he fills out will be good. Lynn has the body for DT but he is better on the edge. Caveness excellent DL but not a DT. Until we can control the inside D will suffer. So far we have a LB and a DE/LB. Kauffman is a hustler but he is just too small. One of my complaints about current DL coach. Once Coach K left , he recruited the same 6'4 guys each year for a 3 man line. He had a lot of good DE but not one NG. He still has the same problem. Repeat the holdover coaches should be retired.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Hmmm...
https://i1.wp.com/brandcollegeconsulting.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/2021.jpg

Georgetown has a whole different set of problems that's hurting its football program. There's no question that Georgetown easily has the most academic brand recognition in the PL imo. But like Fordham, it's only an associate member.

[ngineer]

Navy
St.Francis
Nova
Princeton
Penn
LU now has 2 byes during OOC schedule.

Where do you find the whole scheduel?

[hawkineer]

Where do you find the whole scheduel?
It was in the Lehigh-Lafayette program.
08/25 @ Navy
09/01 St. Francis
09/08 Villanova
09/15 bye
09/22 @ Penn
09/29 bye
10/06 @ Princeton
10/13 Fordham
10/20 @ Georgetown
10/27 @ Holy Cross
11/03 Bucknell
11/10 Colgate
11/17 @Lafayette

[RichH2]

Where do you find the whole scheduel?
In Grolier Call interview with Andy postgame

[CFBfan]

I couldn't agree more. THE big problem is that at about the same time that the Patriot League went scholarship, the Ivy League redefined the game by doling out HUGE amounts of financial aid. Nothing changed. The balance between the Patsies and their number one recruiting foe remained largely the same. The Patsies aren't losing their key recruiting battles to the large state universities of the CAA where grades and SATs are relatively minor entrance requirements. They are now, as they have always been, losing these battles with the Ancient 8. With everything else being equal where is a solid O-Line recruit going to end up, Princeton or Lehigh?!

with 5 years of scholarships in hand the PL coaches should not be competing with the IL on a wide scale basis, they should be competing with the W&M's, Rice's etc of the world
If fans, alum & supporters are content with winning a PL title now and then and then getting blown up ine playoffs leave well enough / not so well enough alone. If not, it's time to push for change! heck...look what Tenn just did to Shiano and he's a good guy!

[RichH2]

with 5 years of scholarships in hand the PL coaches should not be competing with the IL on a wide scale basis, they should be competing with the W&M's, Rice's etc of the world
If fans, alum & supporters are content with winning a PL title now and then and then getting blown up ine playoffs leave well enough / not so well enough alone. If not, it's time to push for change! heck...look what Tenn just did to Shiano and he's a good guy!

In reality PL is competing with CAA for the majority of our prospects. Over the last 3 years we have gone H2H with the Service Academies, CAA, Ivies Mac and other lower FBS Big South NEC in that order.
Since PL is at base an academic conference it is impossible not to face the Ivies for recruits. They are however no longer our #1 recruiting opponent.

[CFBfan]

Former fordham HC Joe Moorehead is new HC at Miss St after being a huge part of a 2,year turn around at Penn St
Kudos to FU for hiring him to turn their program around and shame on them for replacing him with a disaster
Should be a lesson to every PL program that hiring "the right guy" will elevate your program and keeping or hiring "the wrong guy" Wil perpetuate your mediocrity

[LehighU11]

Makes me wonder what would happen if Lehigh brought Cecchini back to South Mountain as HC...

[Neighbor2]

Makes me wonder what would happen if Lehigh brought Cecchini back to South Mountain as HC...


IF Lehigh actually wants a clean sweep, he'd get plenty of consideration.

My guess is, Lehigh will simply just let a few coaches on defense go. Thus, another year of much the same. So . . . what new defensive coach would want to uproot from their current situation to join a Lehigh Head Coach that has a good chance of being let go one year later?

I assume, any new Head Coach brought in would want to bring in his own guys to create a new and better defensive scheme.

(or, is this Andy's job for life!)

[RichH2]

IF Lehigh actually wants a clean sweep, he'd get plenty of consideration.

My guess is, Lehigh will simply just let a few coaches on defense go. Thus, another year of much the same. So . . . what new defensive coach would want to uproot from their current situation to join a Lehigh Head Coach that has a good chance of being let go one year later?

I assume, any new Head Coach brought in would want to bring in his own guys to create a new and better defensive scheme.

(or, is this Andy's job for life!)

Back to back titles. Not likely Andy on hot seat. Perhaps a tad warm given playoff performances. D coaches likely are on hot seats. Dont expect a total sweep but assts and senior advisor should be gone.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

IF Lehigh actually wants a clean sweep, he'd get plenty of consideration.

My guess is, Lehigh will simply just let a few coaches on defense go. Thus, another year of much the same. So . . . what new defensive coach would want to uproot from their current situation to join a Lehigh Head Coach that has a good chance of being let go one year later?

Keep predicting that Andy will go, you've been doing this for the last 7 years, eventually you may be right.

[Pards Rule]

Well, if the intention to fire Andy was there, would not it happen already to quickly pivot to a search for new HC and staff now that recruiting season is full swing after Thanksgiving? For that matter too, would not Coen have fired his DC by now in the same concept??

[RichH2]

Well, if the intention to fire Andy was there, would not it happen already to quickly pivot to a search for new HC and staff now that recruiting season is full swing after Thanksgiving? For that matter too, would not Coen have fired his DC by now in the same concept??
ctually most of recruiting done already with 12/20 early signing date. Lehigh has 11 verbals with only 2 schollies left for this year.

[Neighbor2]

Keep predicting that Andy will go, you've been doing this for the last 7 years, eventually you may be right.

First of all. thank you for being a regular reader of my thoughts!

YES, I would like to see a new Head Coach in charge. Since I've been attending Lehigh football home and away since before you were born, I'm sure I can wait. I believe it's time, and am curious about the entire process at a place like Lehigh, that's all. There's NO doubt in my mind, a full new coaching team would spark renewed interest in the program. That sounds like something needed right now.

We all seem to agree, Lehigh and the entire Patriot League do things differently than every other FCS league. Carry on.

[Lehigh'98]

First of all. thank you for being a regular reader of my thoughts!

YES, I would like to see a new Head Coach in charge. Since I've been attending Lehigh football home and away since before you were born, I'm sure I can wait. I believe it's time, and am curious about the entire process at a place like Lehigh, that's all. There's NO doubt in my mind, a full new coaching team would spark renewed interest in the program. That sounds like something needed right now.

We all seem to agree, Lehigh and the entire Patriot League do things differently than every other FCS league. Carry on.

Changes are needed. It's pretty clear we have a ceiling with current staff. Even looking at the recruiting, we still don't seem to be prioritizing defensive players. Andy I guess could be given another year, but if changes aren't made on defense, then that's a sign of complacency. Sad to say, but Lehigh seems content with where they are at.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Changes are needed. It's pretty clear we have a ceiling with current staff. Even looking at the recruiting, we still don't seem to be prioritizing defensive players. Andy I guess could be given another year, but if changes aren't made on defense, then that's a sign of complacency. Sad to say, but Lehigh seems content with where they are at.

Completely agree! If there's not a major overhaul to defense then Coen and Strerrett clearly aren't interested elevating the program. The defense has been so bad (historically bad) that I simply cant fathom how everyone can keep their jobs. Given that and lack of quality personnel on that side of the ball and next year is looking like a complete disaster. This seems to be trending towards a Tavani situation. Not to that level, at least yet, but along those lines....

[DFW HOYA]

Sad to say, but Lehigh seems content with where they are at.

Lehigh seems content with where they are at.
Lafayette seems content with where they are at.
Colgate seems content with where they are at.
Bucknell seems content with where they are at.
Fordham seems content with where they are at.
Holy Cross seems content with where they are at.
Georgetown is content with where they are at.

It's the Patriot way.

[BNiche]

Former fordham HC Joe Moorehead is new HC at Miss St after being a huge part of a 2,year turn around at Penn St
Kudos to FU for hiring him to turn their program around and shame on them for replacing him with a disaster
Should be a lesson to every PL program that hiring "the right guy" will elevate your program and keeping or hiring "the wrong guy" Wil perpetuate your mediocrity

Well, Breiner was Moorhead's guy and Moorhead's recommendation to take over Fordham.

I agree and still wish there was more of a national search done to take over Joe's spot, but for what Moorhead did with Fordham, I would have probably listened to him too.

[BNiche]

One of the bigger mistakes Fordham ever made. Ironic that the Rams have made the NCAA only once since their great 1970-71 year under Digger Phelps - and they made the field as a member of the PL.

Mistake with men's basketball, but seemingly nowhere else. Men's soccer is in the Elite 8. Five-time A-10 softball champions. Heck, even the women's basketball team made it to the NCAA tournament as recently as 2014.

Meanwhile, I got to see the men lose to a bad East Tennessee team tonight. I swear I'm not bitter.

[Go...gate]

I couldn't agree more. THE big problem is that at about the same time that the Patriot League went scholarship, the Ivy League redefined the game by doling out HUGE amounts of financial aid. Nothing changed. The balance between the Patsies and their number one recruiting foe remained largely the same. The Patsies aren't losing their key recruiting battles to the large state universities of the CAA where grades and SATs are relatively minor entrance requirements. They are now, as they have always been, losing these battles with the Ancient 8. With everything else being equal where is a solid O-Line recruit going to end up, Princeton or Lehigh?!

+ 1`

[Lehigh'98]

OK thanks. I misunderstood. Agree. CAA are good schools. I know not all that eady to get into UNH for out of state students.
As to DL we recruited for a 3 man line so we are short DTs right now. Altho even then we didnt do great at getting a NG. We have 2 DT on the roster Nace and Dooling .We need more. Kircher once he fills out will be good. Lynn has the body for DT but he is better on the edge. Caveness excellent DL but not a DT. Until we can control the inside D will suffer. So far we have a LB and a DE/LB. Kauffman is a hustler but he is just too small. One of my complaints about current DL coach. Once Coach K left , he recruited the same 6'4 guys each year for a 3 man line. He had a lot of good DE but not one NG. He still has the same problem. Repeat the holdover coaches should be retired.

Aside from Cavenas, we didn't have any good defensive ends at all. We got absolutely destroyed on the edge play after play after play. No one could hold their ground. It was compounded by the fact that the LBers were terrible and couldn't tackle. I'm not sure where you are seeing all these good DEs though.

[RichH2]

Aside from Cavenas, we didn't have any good defensive ends at all. We got absolutely destroyed on the edge play after play after play. No one could hold their ground. It was compounded by the fact that the LBers were terrible and couldn't tackle. I'm not sure where you are seeing all these good DEs though.

DEs I was referring to DC recruiting post Coach K the 1st 3 years. Now we 1 in Lynn. As I've said before I think the hodover D coaches should be retired. DL must be a priority. Edge runs killed us all year. Partly the DE but mostly on the LBs and R out of position and a lot of poor tackling..

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Breiner is leaving Fordham to join Moorhead at MSU. This isn't overly suprising. Fordham will be in full rebuild mode next year so I wouldn't expect much from the Rams.

[DFW HOYA]

Breiner is leaving Fordham to join Moorhead at MSU. This isn't overly suprising. Fordham will be in full rebuild mode next year so I wouldn't expect much from the Rams.

Fordham in full rebuild.
Holy Cross in full rebuild.
Georgetown needs to fill 30-35 spots next year and it still won't help.
Bucknell is...Bucknell.

Reads like another lean year for the PL, combined with lots of I-A matchups that the league doesn't appear ready for.

[Ramblin' Man]

Our 2018 Schedule (11 Games):

Sept. 1 at UNC Charlotte
Sept. 8 at University of Richmond
Sept. 15 STONY BROOK UNIVERSITY
Sept. 22 CENTRAL CONNECTICUT STATE (HC)
Sept. 29 Open
Oct. 6 GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY*
Oct. 13 at Lehigh University*
Oct. 20 BRYANT UNIVERSITY
Oct. 27 LAFAYETTE COLLEGE* (FW)
Nov. 3 COLGATE UNIVERSITY*
Nov. 10 at Holy Cross*
Nov. 17 at Bucknell University*

I like it.

Our 2019 Schedule (12 Games)::

Aug. 31 CENTRAL CONNECTICUT STATE
Sept. 7 at Ball State University
Sept. 14 at Bryant University
Sept. 21 at Stony Brook University
Sept. 28 UNIVERSITY of RICHMOND
Oct. 5 at Yale University
Oct. 12 at Georgetown University*
Oct. 19 LEHIGH UNIVERSITY*
Oct. 26 Open
Nov. 2 at Lafayette College*
Nov. 9 at Colgate University*
Nov. 16 HOLY CROSS*
Nov. 23 BUCKELL UNIVERSITY*

I like it even better.

[crusader11]

You really get excited for teams like CCSU, Bryant, Ball State, and Charlotte?

I understand the latter two teams are FBS, but what's to really get all excited about there? Not like there are any parallels between Fordham and these schools.

[PAllen]

You really get excited for teams like CCSU, Bryant, Ball State, and Charlotte?

I understand the latter two teams are FBS, but what's to really get all excited about there? Not like there are any parallels between Fordham and these schools.

Eh, be happy for him. It's good to be excited about your program's upcoming schedule. Replace Bryant and CCSU with Penn and Princeton and I'd be thrilled with that schedule for Lehigh. Instead, we're more likely to replace the Ball State and Charlotte games with Wagner and Sacred Heart.

[Lehigh'98]

Our 2018 Schedule (11 Games):

Sept. 1 at UNC Charlotte
Sept. 8 at University of Richmond
Sept. 15 STONY BROOK UNIVERSITY
Sept. 22 CENTRAL CONNECTICUT STATE (HC)
Sept. 29 Open
Oct. 6 GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY*
Oct. 13 at Lehigh University*
Oct. 20 BRYANT UNIVERSITY
Oct. 27 LAFAYETTE COLLEGE* (FW)
Nov. 3 COLGATE UNIVERSITY*
Nov. 10 at Holy Cross*
Nov. 17 at Bucknell University*

I like it.

Our 2019 Schedule (12 Games)::

Aug. 31 CENTRAL CONNECTICUT STATE
Sept. 7 at Ball State University
Sept. 14 at Bryant University
Sept. 21 at Stony Brook University
Sept. 28 UNIVERSITY of RICHMOND
Oct. 5 at Yale University
Oct. 12 at Georgetown University*
Oct. 19 LEHIGH UNIVERSITY*
Oct. 26 Open
Nov. 2 at Lafayette College*
Nov. 9 at Colgate University*
Nov. 16 HOLY CROSS*
Nov. 23 BUCKELL UNIVERSITY*

I like it even better.

i wonder if Columbia is regretting the decision to stop playing you guys right about now.

[Ramblin' Man]

You really get excited for teams like CCSU, Bryant, Ball State, and Charlotte?

I understand the latter two teams are FBS, but what's to really get all excited about there? Not like there are any parallels between Fordham and these schools.

I would much rather play them than the service academies. CCSU and Bryant are returnees to our schedule. Stony Brook is shaping up to be our new local rival, replacing Columbia. And Yale is one Ivy team that still agrees to play scholarship teams. They have been a nice addition to our schedule. I believe our schedules give us a good shot at a winning record. Now we wait to see who our new head coach will be. The search firm has already been retained.

[DFW HOYA]

I would much rather play them than the service academies.

Schools underestimate the value of quality opponents. If your team schedules against "who cares" opponents, fans will vote their wallets and not show. Outside the Lehigh Valley, the caliber of league opponents doesn't bring sustained interest, so out of conference games are vital.

[aceinthehole]

Eh, be happy for him. It's good to be excited about your program's upcoming schedule. Replace Bryant and CCSU with Penn and Princeton and I'd be thrilled with that schedule for Lehigh. Instead, we're more likely to replace the Ball State and Charlotte games with Wagner and Sacred Heart.

Please enough with the crap. Penn and Princeton aren't that good. CCSU beat Penn this year, something Lehigh couldn't do.

And LU couldn't beat Wagner either, so maybe that's why fans aren't excited.

It isn't the opponent - you just didn't win any of the non-conference games this year!

[LehighU11]

Please enough with the crap. Penn and Princeton aren't that good. CCSU beat Penn this year, something Lehigh couldn't do.

And LU couldn't beat Wagner either, so maybe that's why fans aren't excited.

It isn't the opponent - you just didn't win any of the non-conference games this year!

Again, the argument isn't that the NEC is a terrible league. I give you a lot of credit for carrying the NEC banner well, but this is a pretty easy situation to understand.

If given a choice, Colgate, Holy Cross, Lafayette, or Lehigh alumni would prefer to see us play Ivy opponents rather than Bryant, CCSU, or Wagner. PL schools have historic ties and many institutional similarities to the Ivies. Fair to say that we are not true peers, but no other conference has a closer relationship to the Ivy League that the PL. Heck, the PL was basically formed to round out the Ivy League schedule.

We've had rivalries spanning over 100 years. PL members--and FCS programs in general--have a tough enough time bringing fans out to games. If a Holy Cross or Lehigh fan is going to make the trip back to their alma mater for a game, who would they rather see: Princeton or Bryant? That's a pretty easy decision to make, especially with the number of truly casual fans at this level. PL alumni are going to be more interested in attending a game against an instantly recognizable and historic opponent from the Ivy League, rather than some small school in the Northeast who they've never heard of. The fact is that many people would rather see Princeton than Bryant, Drake, Western Carolina, or Weber St. The latter are all the same to many. Besides, the Ivy League has historically been and still remains a stronger conference overall than the NEC.

[Ramblin' Man]

Schools underestimate the value of quality opponents. If your team schedules against "who cares" opponents, fans will vote their wallets and not show. Outside the Lehigh Valley, the caliber of league opponents doesn't bring sustained interest, so out of conference games are vital.

So I guess we can look forward to Georgetown-Notre Dame, Georgetown-Penn State, and Georgetown-Alabama in future seasons. That will certainly beef up the PL's reputation. xthumbsupx

[PAllen]

Please enough with the crap. Penn and Princeton aren't that good. CCSU beat Penn this year, something Lehigh couldn't do.

And LU couldn't beat Wagner either, so maybe that's why fans aren't excited.

It isn't the opponent - you just didn't win any of the non-conference games this year!

Has nothing to do with recent quality of play. It has everything to do with a very long history of playing those two local rivals. Get that chip off of your shoulder, it's weighing you down.

[PAllen]

So I guess we can look forward to Georgetown-Notre Dame, Georgetown-Penn State, and Georgetown-Alabama in future seasons. That will certainly beef up the PL's reputation. xthumbsupx

While they would certainly get headlines, I'm not sure quadruple digit losses would add to the reputation of the league..

[aceinthehole]

Again, the argument isn't that the NEC is a terrible league. I give you a lot of credit for carrying the NEC banner well, but this is a pretty easy situation to understand.

If given a choice, Colgate, Holy Cross, Lafayette, or Lehigh alumni would prefer to see us play Ivy opponents rather than Bryant, CCSU, or Wagner. PL schools have historic ties and many institutional similarities to the Ivies. Fair to say that we are not true peers, but no other conference has a closer relationship to the Ivy League that the PL. Heck, the PL was basically formed to round out the Ivy League schedule.

We've had rivalries spanning over 100 years. PL members--and FCS programs in general--have a tough enough time bringing fans out to games. If a Holy Cross or Lehigh fan is going to make the trip back to their alma mater for a game, who would they rather see: Princeton or Bryant? That's a pretty easy decision to make, especially with the number of truly casual fans at this level. PL alumni are going to be more interested in attending a game against an instantly recognizable and historic opponent from the Ivy League, rather than some small school in the Northeast who they've never heard of. The fact is that many people would rather see Princeton than Bryant, Drake, Western Carolina, or Weber St. The latter are all the same to many. Besides, the Ivy League has historically been and still remains a stronger conference overall than the NEC.

I fully understand that and you'll get no argument from me - PL-Ivy games have more "juice" - but let's temper you calling out Fordham fans for being "excited" for playing a regional schedule against the likes of CCSU, SBU, and Bryant.

Lehigh drew about 5k for a home game against Yale and Penn this year! You got about 5,500 for a HOME game vs. Princeton last year. In 2013, the CCSU game at Lehigh drew 6,386.

I think PAAllen ise overestimated how "excited" your own fans get for Ivy League games, because they draw about the same as when you play Monmouth or a NEC team. That's my point!

[DFW HOYA]

So I guess we can look forward to Georgetown-Notre Dame, Georgetown-Penn State, and Georgetown-Alabama in future seasons. That will certainly beef up the PL's reputation. xthumbsupx

Well, let's be transparent: Campbell and Marist draws no local interest, and frankly neither does Columbia and Brown. Some combination of local (Howard), regional (Towson, Richmond), or Big East-centric (Villanova, Butler) would draw more sustained interest. This presumes the Hoyas could get impact recruits admitted and get much, much better, something the current setup may not provide them the ability to do.

[Go...gate]

I wonder if Columbia is regretting the decision to stop playing you guys right about now.

That Liberty Cup series was established for a great reason. Wish it would return.

[Go...gate]

Schools underestimate the value of quality opponents. If your team schedules against "who cares" opponents, fans will vote their wallets and not show. Outside the Lehigh Valley, the caliber of league opponents doesn't bring sustained interest, so out of conference games are vital.

Very well stated.

[van]

I fully understand that and you'll get no argument from me - PL-Ivy games have more "juice" - but let's temper you calling out Fordham fans for being "excited" for playing a regional schedule against the likes of CCSU, SBU, and Bryant.

Lehigh drew about 5k for a home game against Yale and Penn this year! You got about 5,500 for a HOME game vs. Princeton last year. In 2013, the CCSU game at Lehigh drew 6,386.

I think PAAllen ise overestimated how "excited" your own fans get for Ivy League games, because they draw about the same as when you play Monmouth or a NEC team. That's my point!

in 2013 the CCSU game was opening home game coming off a 10-1 season, winning teams put on a good show and will bring out fans

2017 opening game against Nova, 5800 attendance, weather cloudy with showers

lot of factors affect attendance, would rather have 5500 against Princeton or 5800 against Nova than 6300 against CCSU anyday

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Attendance is not just a Patriot League problem.

http://www.sunherald.com/sports/college/conference-usa/article188205609.html


Despite having respectable seasons and earning bowl bids, the attendance numbers at Southern Miss and Marshall took a significant drop.


USM led C-USA in average attendance last year at 28,588. This year, games in Hattiesburg dropped to 21,711. That’s partly explained due to inflated figures that were produced under prior administrations and the distribution of fewer free tickets, but there is no denying there were more empty seats at Roberts Stadium this year. The crowd of 22,761 for USM’s season opener against Kentucky is still baffling.


Marshall finished second in C-USA behind USM in attendance last year at 24,760, but that figure dropped to 22,417 despite finishing 7-5 after going 3-9 in 2016.


When Marshall and Southern Miss see waning crowds for no particular reason, that should be a major warning sign for the rest of Conference USA.

[DFW HOYA]

Not much surprises me about Georgetown. This did.

Any guess at Joe Moorhead's salary at Georgetown to be quarterbacks coach in 2000? $3,000 a year.

http://www.clarionledger.com/story/sports/college/mississippi-state/2017/12/07/how-did-road-lead-joe-moorhead-mississippi-state/929948001/

[PAllen]

Not much surprises me about Georgetown. This did.

Any guess at Joe Moorhead's salary at Georgetown to be quarterbacks coach in 2000? $3,000 a year.

http://www.clarionledger.com/story/sports/college/mississippi-state/2017/12/07/how-did-road-lead-joe-moorhead-mississippi-state/929948001/

that's pretty bad

[DFW HOYA]

Non-conference schedules--home games in bold:

Bucknell: William & Mary, at Sacred Heart (pending), at Penn, at Villanova, at Monmouth

Colgate: at New Hampshire, at Furman, at William & Mary, Cornell, at Army

Fordham: at Charlotte, at Richmond, Stony Brook, Central Connecticut, Bryant

Georgetown: Campbell, at Marist, at Dartmouth, Columbia, at Brown

Holy Cross: at Boston College, Yale, Dartmouth, at New Hampshire, at Harvard

Lafayette: at Sacred Heart, at Delaware, Monmouth, Central Connecticut, at Army

Lehigh: St. Francis, Villanova, at Navy, at Pennsylvania, at Princeton

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Non-conference schedules--home games in bold:

Bucknell: William & Mary, at Sacred Heart (pending), at Penn, at Villanova, at Monmouth

Colgate: at New Hampshire, at Furman, at William & Mary, Cornell, at Army

Fordham: at Charlotte, at Richmond, Stony Brook, Central Connecticut, Bryant

Georgetown: Campbell, at Marist, at Dartmouth, Columbia, at Brown

Holy Cross: at Boston College, Yale, Dartmouth, at New Hampshire, at Harvard

Lafayette: at Sacred Heart, at Delaware, Monmouth, Central Connecticut, at Army

Lehigh: St. Francis, at Villanova, at Navy, at Pennsylvania, at Princeton

Honestly, what game is the PL team the favorite in? I'm having a hard time finding one!

I see a lot if ugliness for the PL next year. Getting two teams to finish with a winning record will be a chore. Colgate might struggle to 6-5.

[Gangtackle11]

Non-conference schedules--home games in bold:

Bucknell: William & Mary, at Sacred Heart (pending), at Penn, at Villanova, at Monmouth

Colgate: at New Hampshire, at Furman, at William & Mary, Cornell, at Army

Fordham: at Charlotte, at Richmond, Stony Brook, Central Connecticut, Bryant

Georgetown: Campbell, at Marist, at Dartmouth, Columbia, at Brown

Holy Cross: at Boston College, Yale, Dartmouth, at New Hampshire, at Harvard

Lafayette: at Sacred Heart, at Delaware, Monmouth, Central Connecticut, at Army

Lehigh: St. Francis, at Villanova, at Navy, at Pennsylvania, at Princeton

Villanova travels to Lehigh again next season.

[Go...gate]

Non-conference schedules--home games in bold:

Bucknell: William & Mary, at Sacred Heart (pending), at Penn, at Villanova, at Monmouth

Colgate: at New Hampshire, at Furman, at William & Mary, Cornell, at Army

Fordham: at Charlotte, at Richmond, Stony Brook, Central Connecticut, Bryant

Georgetown: Campbell, at Marist, at Dartmouth, Columbia, at Brown

Holy Cross: at Boston College, Yale, Dartmouth, at New Hampshire, at Harvard

Lafayette: at Sacred Heart, at Delaware, Monmouth, Central Connecticut, at Army

Lehigh: St. Francis, at Villanova, at Navy, at Pennsylvania, at Princeton

Looks like a pretty good non-conference slate in general.

[PAllen]

Honestly, what game is the PL team the favorite in? I'm having a hard time finding one!

I see a lot if ugliness for the PL next year. Getting two teams to finish with a winning record will be a chore. Colgate might struggle to 6-5.

If Lehigh can't beat St. Francis at home, then we don't need to worry about the rest of the season.

Also, how is Lafayette not playing Princeton?

[RichH2]

Looks like a pretty good non-conference slate in general.
Seems like a better overall OOC for the PL than we've had in the past. Not a parade of cupcakes for any team.
Not as sanguine as owl. These are the schedules we need to play each year going forward. May well be that PL wont break 500 in our OOC. I dont believe it will be an embarrassing travesty of non competitive games.Regardless of predictions of disaster these are the games we need to play.

[DFW HOYA]

Seems like a better overall OOC for the PL than we've had in the past. Not a parade of cupcakes for any team.
Not as sanguine as owl. These are the schedules we need to play each year going forward.

Georgetown's schedule continues to underwhelm and deplete the fan base. Look at the best opponent on each PL schedule, and notice the problem:

Bucknell vs. Villanova
Colgate vs. Army
Fordham vs. Charlotte
Holy Cross vs. Boston College
Lafayette vs. Army
Lehigh vs. Navy
Georgetown vs. Columbia :(

I fully realize that Rob Sgarlata isn't getting any calls from Ken Niumatalolo or Bronco Mendenhall looking for a week zero opponent, but you build no interest for a team by playing Campbell and Marist. This isn't new, of course. Former coach Kevin Kelly was offered a guarantee fee to play at NDSU in 2010, but turned it down because he said he wasn't interested in scheduling a bad loss. Instead, he took a game at 1-6 Sacred Heart...and promptly lost by two touchdowns.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

If Lehigh can't beat St. Francis at home, then we don't need to worry about the rest of the season.

Also, how is Lafayette not playing Princeton?

St. Francis is a pretty good team. I wouldn't be surprised if they're the betting favorite heading into that game. They're probably similar to Penn this year.

Lehigh hoops recently lost to SFU....

[carney2]

how is Lafayette not playing Princeton?

More to the point: how is Lafayette playing ZERO Ivys? Can't remember the last time that happened.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Seems like a better overall OOC for the PL than we've had in the past. Not a parade of cupcakes for any team.
Not as sanguine as owl. These are the schedules we need to play each year going forward. May well be that PL wont break 500 in our OOC. I dont believe it will be an embarrassing travesty of non competitive games.Regardless of predictions of disaster these are the games we need to play.

In Vegas I trust when it comes to farovites/underdogs. We'll see when the time comes but the PL is way down. I'm not as sarcastically pessimistic as Carney but when you look at the coaching turnover at HC/Fordham, Lehigh's 0-5 OOC performance this year, Georgetown's struggles, Bucknell's indifference combined with the quality of the opponents there's reason for concern. Plus, next year's league favorite, Colgate, historically plays poorly in the OOC. You can try to spin it anyway you want but there's major reasons to be concerned.

The great thing is like the Lehigh-SBU playoff game the league has nowhere to hide. They'll either embarrass themselves again or the help change the PL narrative.

How excited are you for the Lehigh-Navy game next year after watching them destroy Virginia 48-7? That night, SVP spent about 90 second minutes during his Sportcenter on Navy and how brutally difficult they are to play. He said their line play and method of blocking just destroys defensive lines. He quoted a FBS coach saying "never again" in regards to scheduling them. What's great is they're going to be loaded next year! How badly Lehigh is going to be embarrassed?!?! I think the injury attrition will also be high....

[RichH2]

In Vegas I trust when it comes to farovites/underdogs. We'll see when the time comes but the PL is way down. I'm not as sarcastically pessimistic as Carney but when you look at the coaching turnover at HC/Fordham, Lehigh's 0-5 OOC performance this year, Georgetown's struggles, Bucknell's indifference combined with the quality of the opponents there's reason for concern. Plus, next year's league favorite, Colgate, historically plays poorly in the OOC. You can try to spin it anyway you want but there's major reasons to be concerned.

The great thing is like the Lehigh-SBU playoff game the league has nowhere to hide. They'll either embarrass themselves again or the help change the PL narrative.

How excited are you for the Lehigh-Navy game next year after watching them destroy Virginia 48-7? That night, SVP spent about 90 second minutes during his Sportcenter on Navy and how brutally difficult they are to play. He said their line play and method of blocking just destroys defensive lines. He quoted a FBS coach saying "never again" in regards to scheduling them. What's great is they're going to be loaded next year! How badly Lehigh is going to be embarrassed?!?! I think the injury attrition will also be high....
No doubt Navy will win. That does not mean a bad season. Nor do I anticipate a raft of injuries. Navy is a scheme opponent. They run a scheme on O that opponents rarely see and they do it superbly. There is not an huge talent gap between Lehigh and Navy. Navy is not PSU et al. Besides their O scheme our biggest difference is depth. Navy has it. We dont.

[DFW HOYA]

More to the point: how is Lafayette playing ZERO Ivys? Can't remember the last time that happened.

I looked it up. The 1957 Leopards were 4-4, no Ivy opponents.

LC 20, Muhlenberg 13
LC 14, Buffalo 6
Temple 13, LC 12
LC 35, Bucknell 13
Gettysburg 46, LC 20
Rutgers 34, LC 19
LC 40, Western Maryland 13
Lehigh 26, LC 13

[Bill]

There is not an huge talent gap between Lehigh and Navy.

Rich,
With all due respect, I think you're way off here (I do hope you are correct , though).
After watching Navy a few times this year...and watching LU a few times this year...I think Navy has significantly better talent than Lehigh. Not SEC, but way, way better than Lehigh.

[Sader87]

Navy and Army have bettah overall talent than the PL schools but it isn't the leap one would see between PL teams and Power 5 teams. A lot of PL schools are recruiting many of the same kids who go to the service academies.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Navy and Army have bettah overall talent than the PL schools but it isn't the leap one would see between PL teams and Power 5 teams. A lot of PL schools are recruiting many of the same kids who go to the service academies.

The line play at Army and Navy, especially on defense, is considerably better than it was 5-10 years ago. The commentators always mention how they're able to recruit 300 pounders now. Watch the Navy-ND game from this year. Their DL went toe-to-toe with one of the top OL's in the country. Navy has been better than several P5 programs over the last decade so yes, it is leaps and bounds better. They beat PL Champs Colgate 48-10 in 2015 and 8-3 Fordham 52-16 in 2016. Next year figures to be a really good, Top 25 level, Midshipmen team so Lehigh is catching them at the worst time possible. I think Navy has a legitimate shot at putting up 80 points on Lehigh.

Since Army has turned things around under Monken they've crushed their PL opponents. In 2016 they rolled over Lafayette 62-7. This year they pounded Fordham 64-6.

[ngineer]

Ever since the academies relaxed their physical standards they clearly have become quite competitive with FBS schools. Years ago there were height and weight limitations due to post graduate requirements. The Generals and Admirals got tired of getting embarrassed so policy was changed. similarly, unless PL administrators become embarrassed by the scores, nothing will change.

[PAllen]

In Vegas I trust when it comes to farovites/underdogs. We'll see when the time comes but the PL is way down. I'm not as sarcastically pessimistic as Carney but when you look at the coaching turnover at HC/Fordham, Lehigh's 0-5 OOC performance this year, Georgetown's struggles, Bucknell's indifference combined with the quality of the opponents there's reason for concern. Plus, next year's league favorite, Colgate, historically plays poorly in the OOC. You can try to spin it anyway you want but there's major reasons to be concerned.

The great thing is like the Lehigh-SBU playoff game the league has nowhere to hide. They'll either embarrass themselves again or the help change the PL narrative.

How excited are you for the Lehigh-Navy game next year after watching them destroy Virginia 48-7? That night, SVP spent about 90 second minutes during his Sportcenter on Navy and how brutally difficult they are to play. He said their line play and method of blocking just destroys defensive lines. He quoted a FBS coach saying "never again" in regards to scheduling them. What's great is they're going to be loaded next year! How badly Lehigh is going to be embarrassed?!?! I think the injury attrition will also be high....

A five TD loss to a bowl bound Navy is not embarrassing. A two TD loss to CCSU should be.

[PAllen]

The line play at Army and Navy, especially on defense, is considerably better than it was 5-10 years ago. The commentators always mention how they're able to recruit 300 pounders now. Watch the Navy-ND game from this year. Their DL went toe-to-toe with one of the top OL's in the country. Navy has been better than several P5 programs over the last decade so yes, it is leaps and bounds better. They beat PL Champs Colgate 48-10 in 2015 and 8-3 Fordham 52-16 in 2016. Next year figures to be a really good, Top 25 level, Midshipmen team so Lehigh is catching them at the worst time possible. I think Navy has a legitimate shot at putting up 80 points on Lehigh.

Since Army has turned things around under Monken they've crushed their PL opponents. In 2016 they rolled over Lafayette 62-7. This year they pounded Fordham 64-6.

Yeah, but our defense wouldn't have to get much worse before the same could be said about Georgetown.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

A five TD loss to a bowl bound Navy is not embarrassing. A two TD loss to CCSU should be.

While 5 TDs, say 55-20, wouldn't be TRULY BAD you're still proving you can't legitimately compete. I think it will be worse than that given Lehigh's rush defense. Navy could easily have 3-4 1 or 2 play TD drives.

I'm curious to see what the average score of the PL's games vs FBS will be. Lehigh/Navy, Army/Lafayette and HC/BC will definitely be of the 5+ TD variety. Colgate hasn't come close in their recent FBS contests so I doubt they do much better than a 3-4 TD loss against Army assuming Monken returns. Fordham, even if they're not good, could still be competitive against a horrid Charlotte program. That's the only one I could see being somewhat interesting simply because the 49ers are that bad.

[Colgate Raider Redux]

Navy and Army have bettah overall talent than the PL schools but it isn't the leap one would see between PL teams and Power 5 teams. A lot of PL schools are recruiting ( but not regularly landing ! ) many of the same kids who go to the service academies.

Like their aggressive scheduling prior to having an upgraded product on the field, HC takes solace in "appearances "-- more sought after recruits rejecting them. ( Like you get credit on the field for the effort ? ) H.C.'s attempt to upgrade its program is unique. The new coaching regime is being put in place after all of the "appearances" that the program has been transformed are operative. "Marketing" has been a significant mandate for the new AD. But, "unanticipated events" preempted the phasing in of the related pieces in this program in a traditionally sequential process. Perhaps it works ? But, if the pieces don't synchronize, how many years before the Program tension builds to a boiling point for the HC constituencies from tolerating 7,8, 9 seasons ( currently 6 ) or more with only one .500 performance ? I hope it all works out.



From the HC Board:

( beginning of quote )
"..... A look at the schools chosen by the 89 recruits who turned down HC demonstrates, in my opinion, that HC is aiming high and is not just going after the "low-hanging fruit."

Here is where things stand with respect to 2018 recruiting (subject, of course, to available public sources).

As of December 20, 2017 -- 119 known offers, 11 committed to HC, 89 committed to other schools, 19 offerees still uncommitted.

Harvard -- 5
Yale -- 4
Navy -- 4
William & Mary -- 4
Delaware -- 4
Princeton -- 4
North Dakota State -- 3

Two each to -- Buffalo, Purdue, Richmond, Bowling Green, Wake Forest, Toledo, Charlotte, Temple, Army, Villanova, Air Force, Lehigh, Fordham.

One each to -- Tulsa, Arkansas State, Penn State, UCLA, Furman, Boston College, UConn, Cincinnati, Arizona, Wisconsin, Houston, Ball State, UAB, Virginia, Michigan State, USF, Wofford, Central Arkansas, Penn, Missouri State, UMass, Columbia, Lafayette, Rice, Troy, Nevada, Cornell, Bucknell, Washington State, Ohio State, Colorado, Liberty, Sacred Heart, Georgetown, Liberty...." ( end of quote )

[RichH2]

Like their aggressive scheduling prior to having an upgraded product on the field, HC takes solace in "appearances "-- more sought after recruits rejecting them. ( Like you get credit on the field for the effort ? ) H.C.'s attempt to upgrade its program is unique. The new coaching regime is being put in place after all of the "appearances" that the program has been transformed are operative. "Marketing" has been a significant mandate for the new AD. But, "unanticipated events" preempted the phasing in of the related pieces in this program in a traditionally sequential process. Perhaps it works ? But, if the pieces don't synchronize, how many years before the Program tension builds to a boiling point for the HC constituencies from tolerating 7,8, 9 seasons ( currently 6 ) or more with only one .500 performance ? I hope it all works out.



From the HC Board:

( beginning of quote )
"..... A look at the schools chosen by the 89 recruits who turned down HC demonstrates, in my opinion, that HC is aiming high and is not just going after the "low-hanging fruit."

Here is where things stand with respect to 2018 recruiting (subject, of course, to available public sources).

As of December 20, 2017 -- 119 known offers, 11 committed to HC, 89 committed to other schools, 19 offerees still uncommitted.

Harvard -- 5
Yale -- 4
Navy -- 4
William & Mary -- 4
Delaware -- 4
Princeton -- 4
North Dakota State -- 3

Two each to -- Buffalo, Purdue, Richmond, Bowling Green, Wake Forest, Toledo, Charlotte, Temple, Army, Villanova, Air Force, Lehigh, Fordham.

One each to -- Tulsa, Arkansas State, Penn State, UCLA, Furman, Boston College, UConn, Cincinnati, Arizona, Wisconsin, Houston, Ball State, UAB, Virginia, Michigan State, USF, Wofford, Central Arkansas, Penn, Missouri State, UMass, Columbia, Lafayette, Rice, Troy, Nevada, Cornell, Bucknell, Washington State, Ohio State, Colorado, Liberty, Sacred Heart, Georgetown, Liberty...." ( end of quote )
The result of a very ambitious AD ignoring the reality of his team. New coach a great move just 2 or 3 years late.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The result of a very ambitious AD ignoring the reality of his team. New coach a great move just 2 or 3 years late.

From the outside there appears to be a major disconnect in Worcester regarding reality and the ultimate goal for Crusader athletics. Nate Pine seems to talk the talk but men's bball and football are terrible. Carmody has not turned their hoops program around. They're headed for 3 straight losing seasons with this one being the worst of all. Both programs simply lack talent. For whatever reason HC can not recruit at the level of some of their PL peers.

[Doc QB]

What happened to the Fordham board?

[DFW HOYA]

But, if the pieces don't synchronize, how many years before the Program tension builds to a boiling point for the constituencies from tolerating 7,8,9 seasons ( currently 6 ) or more with only one .500 performance?

What, as opposed to, 17, 18 or 19 seasons?

[Neighbor2]

From the outside there appears to be a major disconnect in Worcester regarding reality and the ultimate goal for Crusader athletics. Nate Pine seems to talk the talk but men's bball and football are terrible. Carmody has not turned their hoops program around. They're headed for 3 straight losing seasons with this one being the worst of all. Both programs simply lack talent. For whatever reason HC can not recruit at the level of some of their PL peers.

I don't understand how ANY Patriot League football program can recruit the best High School FBS-level talent. You're asking young athletes (who all believe they can play on Sundays) to make a name for themselves while wearing a ball and chain on their climb up the ladder.

[ngineer]

Just finished watching that great Rose Bowl game between Oklahoma and Georgia. Talk about lack of defense,,,,BUT, there were tremendous defensive plays being made. Georgia was getting run out of the stadium the first half, but made significant adustments at the half and really slowed down the Sooners. The talent did not change at halftime, the coaching made the difference. They were attacking Oklahoma and were heading toward the ball before the play barely got started. They picked up on a number of reads or tendencies and were impressive. #3 LB for Georgia amazing. Won the Butkus and I can see why. I would love for the Iggles to draft him. Anyway, just seemed to me that the defensive philosophy and schemes employed are critical and Lehigh needs to have some re-evaluation of its defensive approach if matters are going to improve. I don't see any PL team winning more that 7 games next year, and quite possible none have a winning season, overall.

[Gate83]

In Vegas I trust when it comes to farovites/underdogs. We'll see when the time comes but the PL is way down. I'm not as sarcastically pessimistic as Carney but when you look at the coaching turnover at HC/Fordham, Lehigh's 0-5 OOC performance this year, Georgetown's struggles, Bucknell's indifference combined with the quality of the opponents there's reason for concern. Plus, next year's league favorite, Colgate, historically plays poorly in the OOC. You can try to spin it anyway you want but there's major reasons to be concerned.

The great thing is like the Lehigh-SBU playoff game the league has nowhere to hide. They'll either embarrass themselves again or the help change the PL narrative.

How excited are you for the Lehigh-Navy game next year after watching them destroy Virginia 48-7? That night, SVP spent about 90 second minutes during his Sportcenter on Navy and how brutally difficult they are to play. He said their line play and method of blocking just destroys defensive lines. He quoted a FBS coach saying "never again" in regards to scheduling them. What's great is they're going to be loaded next year! How badly Lehigh is going to be embarrassed?!?! I think the injury attrition will also be high....

That's a bit of an overstatement. Our OOC record (regular season) is 53-45 since 2000, though very poor the last 5 years (7-19). That recent stretch of lousy OOC results coincides with reinstituting annual FBS games, a scheduling philosophy that you don't like while our players, coaches & alumni embrace it wholeheartedly. We have won two PL championships & two playoff games during that same stretch, so maybe there is something to "scheduling up" and letting tough games early get the team ready for the PL season. After all, it's not like the league is getting too many at large bids these days...

[DFW HOYA]

That's a bit of an overstatement. Our OOC record (regular season) is 53-45 since 2000, though very poor the last 5 years (7-19)... After all, it's not like the league is getting too many at large bids these days...

The rest of the league out of conference, 2013-17:

Fordham: 17-9
Bucknell: 14-11
Holy Cross: 11-15
Lehigh: 10-15
Georgetown: 9-16
Lafayette: 4-21

[Colgate Raider Redux]

From the HC Board:

( beginning of quote )
"..... A look at the schools chosen by the 89 recruits who turned down HC demonstrates, in my opinion, that HC is aiming high and is not just going after the "low-hanging fruit."

Here is where things stand with respect to 2018 recruiting (subject, of course, to available public sources).

As of December 20, 2017 -- 119 known offers, 11 committed to HC, 89 committed to other schools, 19 offerees still uncommitted.


Go Lehigh TU owl (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/member.php?107-Go-Lehigh-TU-owl) and RichH are spot on. HC continues to make strategic mistakes.

Their current recruiting class in formation ( "11 committed to HC" ) sure looks like the lowest of "low-hanging fruit" to me:

"....Cedeno - DL - no other offers reported
Smith - DB - Fordham, Army, IL
Honohan - LB - FAU, Davidson
Wood - LB - Stetson, Jacksonville
Smith - OL - Colgate, Bucknell
Kennedy - WR - Valporaiso
Reynolds - DB - no other offers reported
Gilliam - WR - no other offers reported
Doherty - DB - no other offers reported
Copley - DL - Youngstown, State, Ivies, App. State, Buffalo - pretty impressive list of offers..."

H.C. has set up a trap for itself. I feel like dwelling on HC's foibles is so "high school-ish." I mean no harm. But, like many others on this board, I'm really sick of HC87's nonsense about the PL destroying HC athletics. Seems like HC, as it has done over the past few decades, is doing a pretty good job of that all by its lonesome.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Go Lehigh TU owl (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/member.php?107-Go-Lehigh-TU-owl) and RichH are spot on. HC continues to make strategic mistakes.

Their current recruiting class in formation ( "11 committed to HC" ) sure looks like the lowest of "low-hanging fruit" to me:

"....Cedeno - DL - no other offers reported
Smith - DB - Fordham, Army, IL
Honohan - LB - FAU, Davidson
Wood - LB - Stetson, Jacksonville
Smith - OL - Colgate, Bucknell
Kennedy - WR - Valporaiso
Reynolds - DB - no other offers reported
Gilliam - WR - no other offers reported
Doherty - DB - no other offers reported
Copley - DL - Youngstown, State, Ivies, App. State, Buffalo - pretty impressive list of offers..."

H.C. has set up a trap for itself. I feel like dwelling on HC's foibles is so "high school-ish." I mean no harm. But, like many others on this board, I'm really sick of HC87's nonsense about the PL destroying HC athletics. Seems like HC, as it has done over the past few decades, is doing a pretty good job of that all by its lonesome.

1. Until the Patsies come out, it is premature to try to speculate on how good a recruiting class will be.

2. 3 of HC's guys have FBS offers and in two of the cases they also outhustled the Ivy League for them - while they didn't have a permanent head coach. That's pretty good.

[Colgate Raider Redux]

"Pretty good"

1. Until the Patsies come out, it is premature to try to speculate on how good a recruiting class will be.

2. 3 of HC's guys have FBS offers and in two of the cases they also outhustled the Ivy League for them - while they didn't have a permanent head coach. That's pretty good.

With all due respect, I'd rather wait until the results ( W-L ) of HC's 2018 and 2019 seasons are in. You and the Patsy's don't address the larger point I'm making here: the component parts of HC's fb program have been thrown out of whack. For example, HC abruptly ratcheted up the level of their immediate competition substantially--scheduling teams more challenging than the ones that accounted for their dismal record over the past six years. Has there been a commensurate change in the other program components to synchronize with this abrupt change of competition ? Collectively, recruiting and current personnel as represented in the Patsy's address only one of the components of the "trap" that HC has created for itself. ( ".....while they didn't have a permanent head coach. That's pretty good." "Pretty good ?"... relative to the abrupt change in their on-field competition, especially given their large graduating senior class ?...Whose fault is it that HC was left without a head coach at this critical juncture, and that the new coaching regime has so little time to build the program components to address these abrupt changes ? )
Why don't you give them some extra Patsy Points for that accomplishment ?
I hope they do well.
I rest my case.

[RichH2]

"Pretty good"

With all due respect, I'd rather wait until the results ( W-L ) of HC's 2018 and 2019 seasons are in. You and the Patsy's don't address the larger point I'm making here: the component parts of their program have been thrown out of whack. For example, HC abruptly changed the level of their immediate competition that are more challenging than the schools that contributed to their dismal record over the past six years. There will be consequences. Collectively, recruiting and current personnel as represented in the Patsy's address only one of the components of the "trap" that HC has created for itself. ( ".....while they didn't have a permanent head coach. That's pretty good." "Pretty good ?"... relative to the abrupt change in their on-field competition, especially given their large graduating senior class ?...Whose fault was it that HC didn't have a head coach, and the new coaching regime has so little time to adjust ? )
Why don't you give them some extra Patsy Points for that accomplishment ?
I hope they do well.
I rest my case.

Redux
Apples and oranges. You and LFN are arguing different metrics. LFN is correct that under the circumstances Cross did OK putting together an ESD group. Chesney has a window now to improve this class. Patsys only measure the recruit class. Historically, while Patsys dont predict individual success they do fairly well predicting team success in the future.
You are correct that the " circumstances" are really their issue. Cross has created their own dilemma here by scheduling up first before having the team to actually compete.

[Fordham]

"Pretty good"

With all due respect, I'd rather wait until the results ( W-L ) of HC's 2018 and 2019 seasons are in. You and the Patsy's don't address the larger point I'm making here: the component parts of HC's fb program have been thrown out of whack. For example, HC abruptly changed the level of their immediate competition--scheduling teams more challenging than the ones that accounted for their dismal record over the past six years. Has there been a commensurate change in the other program components to synchronize with this abrupt change of competition ? Collectively, recruiting and current personnel as represented in the Patsy's address only one of the components of the "trap" that HC has created for itself. ( ".....while they didn't have a permanent head coach. That's pretty good." "Pretty good ?"... relative to the abrupt change in their on-field competition, especially given their large graduating senior class ?...Whose fault is it that HC was left without a head coach at this critical juncture, and that the new coaching regime has so little time to adjust to abrupt changes in the program ? )
Why don't you give them some extra Patsy Points for that accomplishment ?
I hope they do well.
I rest my case.

Aren't they doing a pretty significant facilities upgrade right now? If so, you have full scholarships combined with facility upgrades, an upgraded schedule and a new coaching staff. It sounds to me like HC is on the right path. Might it mean taking their lumps in the short term? Sure. Does it help the new staff sell recruits who could get the chance for a full ride to an incredible school while playing in some of the better facilities in FCS, against some big time competition while having the chance for early playing time? I think it does as well.

Chalk me up as being envious of the path HC appears to be on. Again, this is all based upon me being correct that they're upgrading their athletic facilities, though, which says to me that they're serious about winning.

[DFW HOYA]

Does it help the new staff sell recruits who could get the chance for a full ride to an incredible school while playing in some of the better facilities in FCS, against some big time competition while having the chance for early playing time? I think it does as well.

When did Fitton Field become one of the better facilities in the FCS?

[Go...gate]

More to the point: how is Lafayette playing ZERO Ivys? Can't remember the last time that happened.

I believe we are going to see more of the cold shoulder from the Ivy, though it is undeserved.

[Go...gate]

That's a bit of an overstatement. Our OOC record (regular season) is 53-45 since 2000, though very poor the last 5 years (7-19). That recent stretch of lousy OOC results coincides with reinstituting annual FBS games, a scheduling philosophy that you don't like while our players, coaches & alumni embrace it wholeheartedly. We have won two PL championships & two playoff games during that same stretch, so maybe there is something to "scheduling up" and letting tough games early get the team ready for the PL season. After all, it's not like the league is getting too many at large bids these days...

+ 1

[Go...gate]

This gloom and doom is depressing. We have a fine league. Is it perfect? Hell, no. But I'm still proud of our conference and the way we do things. Lehigh will work on their defense, Colgate will continue to play "stretch" games, Holy Cross and Lafayette will keep working to bring their programs around, Bucknell will recruit for offense, and Georgetown will do their level best to succeed as a true non-scholarship program.

Happy New Year to all of you!

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

That's a bit of an overstatement. Our OOC record (regular season) is 53-45 since 2000, though very poor the last 5 years (7-19). That recent stretch of lousy OOC results coincides with reinstituting annual FBS games, a scheduling philosophy that you don't like while our players, coaches & alumni embrace it wholeheartedly. We have won two PL championships & two playoff games during that same stretch, so maybe there is something to "scheduling up" and letting tough games early get the team ready for the PL season. After all, it's not like the league is getting too many at large bids these days...

The 7-19 OOC record just shows how inferior Colgate is to their OOC opponents. They're playing up but not winning the games because you guys aren't good enough. I don't think continuing to perform poorly in the OOC does anything to help Colgate football or the PL. Yeah you won two playoff games in 2015 but based on the last decade of Colgate football that seems more like a fluke than anything. Especially since they weren't able to back it up the last two years with any sort of national relevancy.

Colgate better go 3-2 in the OOC in 2018. No excuses for a losing record this year right?

[Go...gate]

The 7-19 OOC record just shows how inferior Colgate is to their OOC opponents. They're playing up but not winning the games because you guys aren't good enough. I don't think continuing to perform poorly in the OOC does anything to help Colgate football or the PL. Yeah you won two playoff games in 2015 but based on the last decade of Colgate football that seems more like a fluke than anything. Especially since they weren't able to back it up the last two years with any sort of national relevancy.

Colgate better go 3-2 in the OOC in 2018. No excuses for a losing record this year right?

No more than Lehigh had for going 0-5 OOC last year.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Here's a thought. Why don't the teams of the PL simply win more of these games? The issue isn't that the schedules are too hard, it's that the teams of the PL need to figure out how to beat them. The way to beat them is to schedule them.

The teams of the PL should be looking for challenges as a team and to be able to construct a team that wins the national championship. That bar is high, but it should be high.

Incidentally, HC has been scheduling those type of games... and won the marquee win for the league last year, and it's not particularly close. So the use of HC as an example of "overstepping one's bounds" seems especially weird.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

No more than Lehigh had for going 0-5 OOC last year.

There's no excuses regarding Lehigh's 0-5 OOC record. Lehigh was a bad team in 2017 yet good enough to win the horrid PL. Do you expect Colgate to be bad as well in '18? Because Colgate is the league favorite heading into 2018 so them going 0-5 further entrenches the narrative.

[Go...gate]

There's no excuses regarding Lehigh's 0-5 OOC record. Lehigh was a bad team in 2017 yet good enough to win the horrid PL. Do you expect Colgate to be bad as well in '18? Because Colgate is the league favorite heading into 2018 so them going 0-5 further entrenches the narrative.

One of the lessons I have learned in a long life is that I rarely make predictions. As I recall, Colgate knew it had its work cut out for them and grew in the course of the season - including losing a character-builder to you guys. In 2018, Colgate will prepare and play each game as well as it possibly can. The chips will fall where they may.

[PAllen]

The 7-19 OOC record just shows how inferior Colgate is to their OOC opponents. They're playing up but not winning the games because you guys aren't good enough. I don't think continuing to perform poorly in the OOC does anything to help Colgate football or the PL. Yeah you won two playoff games in 2015 but based on the last decade of Colgate football that seems more like a fluke than anything. Especially since they weren't able to back it up the last two years with any sort of national relevancy.

Colgate better go 3-2 in the OOC in 2018. No excuses for a losing record this year right?

Colgate has done just fine. Lehigh's OOC record hasn't been much if any better and we've had a pretty steady diet of cupcakes compared to what the Red Raiders have faced.

[Go...gate]

Here's a thought. Why don't the teams of the PL simply win more of these games? The issue isn't that the schedules are too hard, it's that the teams of the PL need to figure out how to beat them. The way to beat them is to schedule them.

The teams of the PL should be looking for challenges as a team and to be able to construct a team that wins the national championship. That bar is high, but it should be high.

Incidentally, HC has been scheduling those type of games... and won the marquee win for the league last year, and it's not particularly close. So the use of HC as an example of "overstepping one's bounds" seems especially weird.

Agreed. And like anything else, if we keep working at it, over time, we will all get stronger.

[RichH2]

Agreed. And like anything else, if we keep working at it, over time, we will all get stronger.
+1