Patriot League 2018 - way way way to early [Archive] - Page 4

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RichH2

March 25th, 2018, 03:15 PM

Georgetown is a "need-blind, full-need" university on financial aid. If there are three or twenty-three signees with full need, they get it. But if they don't qualify for need, they won't get it either.

Which leads me back to the earlier question. This is not a one or two year trend, nor an issue with one coach. We're talking 19 years of this. Georgetown ran the ball and couldn't get recruits. It was an option program and couldn't get recruits. It went to passing and couldn't get recruits. Supply or demand must be in play--either the supply isn't getting enough talent into Georgetown's AI funnel, or players on offense somehow won't accept a Georgetown offer when kids on the defensive side of the ball do, all things being equal.
Need blind does not mean coach has access to unlimited need aid. If true, Hoyas should be doing much better than they have been.

DFW HOYA

March 25th, 2018, 04:23 PM

Need blind does not mean coach has access to unlimited need aid. If true, Hoyas should be doing much better than they have been.

Need blind and full need are two different concepts. Need blind means a school does not consider ability to pay anywhere in the admissions process. There are about 60 or schools which do this. Of these, about 40 of the 60 maintain demonstrated "full need" if accepted--the risk being that in any one year you could have more aid requested than budgeted.

In the PL, Georgetown and Holy Cross are need blind, full need, while the others are at some level of either "need aware" or "need sensitive" but may not guarantee 100% aid upon acceptance. (For example, Colgate is reported as need-aware and full need.)

Where Georgetown gets squeezed (football and otherwise) is the middle income kids. That prospect with the 1470 SAT whose family makes $90-120K a year is not getting full need. There is no merit aid at Georgetown to fill in the gap and no scholarship to buy it out altogether. The comparable Ivy offer may be $5,000 to $10,000 less. Many times, they go elsewhere.

-------------------------------

In other news, Georgetown has a new offensive coordinator, but will he stay more than one season?

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/football.htm

RichH2

March 26th, 2018, 08:32 PM

Need blind and full need are two different concepts. Need blind means a school does not consider ability to pay anywhere in the admissions process. There are about 60 or schools which do this. Of these, about 40 of the 60 maintain demonstrated "full need" if accepted--the risk being that in any one year you could have more aid requested than budgeted.

In the PL, Georgetown and Holy Cross are need blind, full need, while the others are at some level of either "need aware" or "need sensitive" but may not guarantee 100% aid upon acceptance. (For example, Colgate is reported as need-aware and full need.)

Where Georgetown gets squeezed (football and otherwise) is the middle income kids. That prospect with the 1470 SAT whose family makes $90-120K a year is not getting full need. There is no merit aid at Georgetown to fill in the gap and no scholarship to buy it out altogether. The comparable Ivy offer may be $5,000 to $10,000 less. Many times, they go elsewhere.

-------------------------------

In other news, Georgetown has a new offensive coordinator, but will he stay more than one season?

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/football.htm

So what happens at GU if coach does get 33 full need verbals ? Can he keep them ? Of course assuming that total still keeps GU under the 60 cap.

Bill

March 26th, 2018, 10:53 PM

RichH2

March 27th, 2018, 09:34 AM

Rich,

I'm not trying to put words into DFW's mouth here, but it is my understanding that Georgetown does NOT meet 100% of need with grants regardless of income (a la P Y H). They even have examples on their financial aid page at https://finaid.georgetown.edu/aid-for-undergrads#

So even if the coach gets 33 full need verbals, those kids are still going to have quite the hefty loan package...whereas the same kid admitted to P H Y is receiving his need in the the form of grants that don't need to be paid back... This certainly does make GT football a disaster. You need the same academic qualifications as P H Y, yet if you are low - middle income you will graduate with a ton of debt. It's a frightening choice that talented football players aren't making - and who can blame them!

Seems right Bill. Given GU's football issues that scenario makes sense. Another possible scenario may be that coach has to juggle number of full need rides vs his buget and the need for a certain number of recruits to fill his roster. If GU admission is totally need blind theoretically coach should be able to recruit w/ o regard to the number of full rides in his class. That presumes that GU Admissions would not slot football recruits as most other schools do. The only limit would be the PL 60 cap.

PAllen

March 27th, 2018, 03:28 PM

Seems right Bill. Given GU's football issues that scenario makes sense. Another possible scenario may be that coach has to juggle number of full need rides vs his buget and the need for a certain number of recruits to fill his roster. If GU admission is totally need blind theoretically coach should be able to recruit w/ o regard to the number of full rides in his class. That presumes that GU Admissions would not slot football recruits as most other schools do. The only limit would be the PL 60 cap.

I'm not sure the 60 cap would apply if all of the aid was strictly need based and identical to what the rest of the student body gets.

RichH2

March 27th, 2018, 04:20 PM

I'm not sure the 60 cap would apply if all of the aid was strictly need based and identical to what the rest of the student body gets.
Under PL bylaws "all aid" from whatever source counts against the PL schollie cap of 60. Some perspective Ivies and service academies are only teams that get an exemption from NCAA schollie max. NEC ,for example, gives 45 schollies but allows need aid up to NCAA cap of 63.

DFW HOYA

March 27th, 2018, 06:07 PM

Under PL bylaws "all aid" from whatever source counts against the PL schollie cap of 60.

Not exactly. Per Article 7: "Beginning with the class entering in the fall of 2013, it shall be permissible to offer financial aid to football student-athletes not limited by demonstrated financial need. The annual limit on the value of financial aid awards (equivalencies) to counters shall not exceed sixty (60)." (emphasis added)

Counters have a specific definition in NCAA circles. It is defined as "an individual who is receiving institutional financial aid that is countable against the aid limitations in a sport."

This section is important:

15.5.6.2.1 Exception—Championship Subdivision. [FCS] Championship subdivision football programs that meet the following criteria are exempt from the championship subdivision football counter and initial-counter requirements of Bylaws 15.5.1 and 15.5.6, regardless of multi-sport student-athletes who receive athletics aid in a sport(s) other than football:

(a) In football, the institution awards financial aid only to student-athletes who demonstrate financial need, except loans, academic honor awards, nonathletics achievement awards, or certain aid from outside sources may be provided without regard to financial need;
(b) The institution uses methodologies for analyzing need that conform to federal, state and written institutional guidelines. The methodologies used to determine the need of a student-athlete must be consistent with the methodologies used by the institution’s financial aid office for all students; and
(c) The composition of the financial aid package offered to football student-athletes is consistent with the policy established for offering financial assistance to all students. The financial aid packages for football student-athletes also shall meet the following criteria:
(1) The institution shall not consider athletics ability as a criterion in the formulation of any football student-athlete’s financial aid package; and
(2) The procedures used to award financial aid to football student-athletes must be the same as the existing financial aid procedures used for all students at the institution. "

This, in legalese, is the Ivy League exception. Whether Georgetown fits in this category is likely but not definitive.

Either way, they still can't recruit impact players.

RichH2

March 27th, 2018, 06:44 PM

Not exactly. Per Article 7: "Beginning with the class entering in the fall of 2013, it shall be permissible to offer financial aid to football student-athletes not limited by demonstrated financial need. The annual limit on the value of financial aid awards (equivalencies) to counters shall not exceed sixty (60)." (emphasis added)

Counters have a specific definition in NCAA circles. It is defined as "an individual who is receiving institutional financial aid that is countable against the aid limitations in a sport."

This section is important:

15.5.6.2.1 Exception—Championship Subdivision. [FCS] Championship subdivision football programs that meet the following criteria are exempt from the championship subdivision football counter and initial-counter requirements of Bylaws 15.5.1 and 15.5.6, regardless of multi-sport student-athletes who receive athletics aid in a sport(s) other than football:

(a) In football, the institution awards financial aid only to student-athletes who demonstrate financial need, except loans, academic honor awards, nonathletics achievement awards, or certain aid from outside sources may be provided without regard to financial need;
(b) The institution uses methodologies for analyzing need that conform to federal, state and written institutional guidelines. The methodologies used to determine the need of a student-athlete must be consistent with the methodologies used by the institution’s financial aid office for all students; and
(c) The composition of the financial aid package offered to football student-athletes is consistent with the policy established for offering financial assistance to all students. The financial aid packages for football student-athletes also shall meet the following criteria:
(1) The institution shall not consider athletics ability as a criterion in the formulation of any football student-athlete’s financial aid package; and
(2) The procedures used to award financial aid to football student-athletes must be the same as the existing financial aid procedures used for all students at the institution. "

This, in legalese, is the Ivy League exception. Whether Georgetown fits in this category is likely but not definitive.

Either way, they still can't recruit impact players.

Art. 7 counts all financial aid ( equivalencies) to counters. Counters are players considered recruited under NCAA rules. Non recruited players , true walk ons, do not count as equivalencies. In August PL deleted an exception allowing 3 true walk ons wose aid would not count vs schollie or roster cap. It seems to me given the Art.7 use of" counters" that aid to non recruited walkon will not count vs the 60 max. I note that non recruited does not mean no contact.

DFW HOYA

March 27th, 2018, 07:13 PM

RichH2

March 27th, 2018, 07:34 PM

As the NCAA has noted, once a counter, all institutional aid becomes countable (except exempted institutional aid). However, a student-athlete does not become a counter based on receipt of aid granted without regard to athletics ability.

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/DI%2520Financial%2520Aid%2520(Foundational).pptx

And that defines a true walk on who only receives aid identical to all students. Guess that's why PL deleted the 3 WO exeption. It was superfluous. If we are correct that would explain the increased quality of LU WOs over the last few years :). I sense I will have to wade through PL bylaws again to get a better sense of their intent. Ugh :)

Go Lehigh TU Owl

April 5th, 2018, 09:34 PM

Any word on spring practices? It's been crickets!

There's been very little coming out of the Lehigh camp. Any idea who is seeing time along the Front 7?!? How about the OL? WR rotations?

Go...gate

April 6th, 2018, 12:21 AM

RichH2

April 6th, 2018, 10:40 AM

Any word on spring practices? It's been crickets!

There's been very little coming out of the Lehigh camp. Any idea who is seeing time along the Front 7?!? How about the OL? WR rotations?

Not much. Steve is posting video updates on LU site by position. QBs a few days ago. Spring practice truncated now by lack of bodies and NCAA rules. From what I can gather 2ndary is standing out. WR group apparently adapting fairly well. Repeated mantra from staff is finding leaders to replace the seniors.

RichH2

April 6th, 2018, 12:44 PM

owl
A bit more info. OL having some growing pains. Not unexpected. Rest of the O shaping up quite well so far. Still digging for info on DL.

PAllen

April 6th, 2018, 08:30 PM

So what I'm hearing is that we're going to suck next year and 5-6 might be a miracle.
.

Go...gate

April 6th, 2018, 09:44 PM

So what I'm hearing is that we're going to suck next year and 5-6 might be a miracle.
.

Seriously?

Lehigh'98

April 6th, 2018, 09:54 PM

So what I'm hearing is that we're going to suck next year and 5-6 might be a miracle.
.

The writing is on the wall.

Go Lehigh TU Owl

April 7th, 2018, 01:03 AM

So what I'm hearing is that we're going to suck next year and 5-6 might be a miracle.
.

I think OOC is going to be a major struggle again. I could easily see another 0'fer. The only saving grace is the league should once again be terrible. The offense will score but I see nothing on defense that leads me to believe they're going to go from historically bad to decent. There's a couple of nice pieces but overall there's a serious dearth of talent and size along the DL imo. I'm expecting the unit to get run over again. It likely won't be as bad as last year. That would be almost impossible! Still, I could see if being ranked in 90's or 100's again in most of the meaningful stats.

Could 5-6 win the league again? I think it's possible.

DFW HOYA

April 7th, 2018, 08:33 AM

I think OOC is going to be a major struggle again. I could easily see another 0'fer. The only saving grace is the league should once again be terrible.

This was not an expectation with adding 60 scholarships. The non-conference schedules are comparable but the results aren't there from 10 or 20 years ago. What are your thoughts as to why the PL isn't winning as it was projected to?

RichH2

April 7th, 2018, 10:18 AM

I think OOC is going to be a major struggle again. I could easily see another 0'fer. The only saving grace is the league should once again be terrible. The offense will score but I see nothing on defense that leads me to believe they're going to go from historically bad to decent. There's a couple of nice pieces but overall there's a serious dearth of talent and size along the DL imo. I'm expecting the unit to get run over again. It likely won't be as bad as last year. That would be almost impossible! Still, I could see if being ranked in 90's or 100's again in most of the meaningful stats.

Could 5-6 win the league again? I think it's possible.

A bit melodramatic but certainly possible. More digging indicates that on O only issue so far is OL coordination. Time and reps solve that.

D
Two issues are top of the list. Tackling far and away #1. Spring emphasis has been primarily tackling drills. 2nd issue is coordination between LBs and DL with the emphasis on learning how to play defense not just how to memorize assignments. Kashurba appears to be the right hire by Sutyak to get front 7 to improve.
A winning record may be our only reasonable goal at this point but I dont believe it is a foregone conclusion. I first want to see what this squad looks like in Aug after a couple of weeks practice.

Sader87

April 7th, 2018, 10:05 PM

This was not an expectation with adding 60 scholarships. The non-conference schedules are comparable but the results aren't there from 10 or 20 years ago. What are your thoughts as to why the PL isn't winning as it was projected to?

Holy Cross had horrific coaching for the last 5 or so years as Gilmore showed he couldn't handle running a scholarship program (amongst other things....just a terrible head coach).

HC basically starting from scratch undah Chesney....but the optimism is there like it hasn't been for the program since the 1980s.....we shall see.

RichH2

April 8th, 2018, 09:37 AM

This was not an expectation with adding 60 scholarships. The non-conference schedules are comparable but the results aren't there from 10 or 20 years ago. What are your thoughts as to why the PL isn't winning as it was projected to?

"Projected to.." definitely not a term I would ascribe to the fan explosion of optimistic predictions.I never saw schollies as a magic wand curing all our ills. Even if employed correctly PL has enough other artificial restrictions now that effectively dampen the impact of schollies. It is abundantly clear in hindsight that PL teams did not initially recruit very well for the first 3-4 years. Some stars certainly but fewer players and less overall talent than many of the better preschollie groups. Why? Mostly, because staffs recruited the same prospects on their lists adding to them a plethora of highly touted kids who were unlikely to come to the PL and didnt. Cant speak to the recruiting strategies of all but at LU Coen did not adapt our strategy at all for the first 3 years with the result that while he got some true superstars the overall classes were at best average. Why then werent we getting the same teams we had from the late 90s thru mid 2000s? A bit more complicated but basically the landscape had changed. Fordham got that and pushed PL to go schollie. Those kids we used to get were now getting rides from Monmouth Albany Stony Brook et al and the Ivies with their amped up recruiting in response to PL.
Over the last 2-3 years Coen has adapted finally to necessities of schollie recruiting. Better targeting of full rides resulting in smaller classes but a much greater talent level. Unfortunately for us, he has restocked his offense at the expense of the defense. Not all his fault. It is easier, given the history of our offensive success to attract excellent QBs and offensive talent.
Tracking recruit classes it is evident that most have adapted to the learning curve for schollie recruiting at least to a degree. Talent level has increased overall particularly over the last 2 classes.
Given that many scheduled up quickly OOC results have been dreadful.IMO results will not get much better for another year or two. I look at LU-'s large senior class as an example of my point. Some superstars in Mayes and Bragalone but in reality not much else. Some decent PL players but a larger group that has yet to produce on the field.Admittedly some of this results from injuries but regardless the production has not been there.
As frustrated as I am right now over PL's terrible OOC record, I am optimistic about our future. PL has eased up a bit on aid to WOs. Cross,Rams and Pards have invested in hopefully top flight head coaches. If we continue to recruit at the same level as the last 2 classes we will turn this crap around :)

van

April 9th, 2018, 06:37 AM

I would add Mish to the list of "superstars" in that class, one of the best kickers we have ever had when fully healthy

RichH2

April 9th, 2018, 07:55 AM

I would add Mish to the list of "superstars" in that class, one of the best kickers we have ever had when fully healthy

Yul. I would love to add Kelsey.A player with tremendous ability beset with injuries his entire career.

RichH2

April 10th, 2018, 11:03 AM

owl
Prospectus will be out this week. Position previews today and Thurs. Wr/RB/TE first the DBs.

DFW HOYA

April 10th, 2018, 08:48 PM

RichH2

April 11th, 2018, 09:22 AM

The power of scholarships, part 991: Georgetown was in the running for 26 players this year with two or more stars according to the 247 rating system. How many signed to play for the Hoyas? None. Any of these might have elevated the 2018 season, but it didn't happen.

https://247sports.com/college/georgetown/Season/2018-Football/Offers
Today's reality. Preschollie GU may have gotten many of them. Stars are nice for Patsys but not all that relevant to potential quality of recruits. Of the commits you do have, there are a few with very good offer sheets. Not enough truly but they are there.

The Boogie Down

April 12th, 2018, 11:33 AM

Today's reality. Preschollie GU may have gotten many of them. Stars are nice for Patsys but not all that relevant to potential quality of recruits. Of the commits you do have, there are a few with very good offer sheets. Not enough truly but they are there.

Except for 2011 when GU was one win away from a PL crown and a playoffs trip, are things all that different for the Hoyas now than during the pre-schollie era? 2011 was a great run but aside from that, what?

ColgateTD

April 13th, 2018, 03:48 PM

Except for 2011 when GU was one win away from a PL crown and a playoffs trip, are things all that different for the Hoyas now than during the pre-schollie era? 2011 was a great run but aside from that, what?

Interesting that GU was one point away from giving Colgate it's only loss of the 2003 season in the first game. Wonder how things would have worked out had Gate lost that one. They went on to Chattanooga as you will recall.

The Boogie Down

April 17th, 2018, 08:40 PM

Interesting that GU was one point away from giving Colgate it's only loss of the 2003 season in the first game. Wonder how things would have worked out had Gate lost that one. They went on to Chattanooga as you will recall.

I remember that game and always wondered how the Block F Georgetown stayed that close. I don't think things woulda worked out all that differently for Gate but it coulda/woulda been an all-time great win for the Hoyas.

Back in the early '90s Fordham too had some near-misses against some good Holy Cross and Villanova teams but like Georgetown in '03, they ultimately came up just short. In fact, it would be another full decade before the Rams showed any signs of being truly competitive. Except for 2011, this has never happened down in DC. Not now, not in the pre-schollie era either. Minus a new administration, and/or a new set of ground rules, I can't see how/when Georgetown ever becomes a legit PL player.

RichH2

April 17th, 2018, 09:34 PM

I remember that game and always wondered how the Block F Georgetown stayed that close. I don't think things woulda worked out all that differently for Gate but it coulda/woulda been an all-time great win for the Hoyas.

Back in the early '90s Fordham too had some near-misses against some good Holy Cross and Villanova teams but like Georgetown in '03, they ultimately came up just short. In fact, it would be another full decade before the Rams showed any signs of being truly competitive. Except for 2011, this has never happened down in DC. Not now, not in the pre-schollie era either. Minus a new administration, and/or a new set of ground rules, I can't see how/when Georgetown ever becomes a legit PL player.
Likely the reality for Hoyas now. Certainly possible that they could get a gamechanger or two and put together a great year every once in a while. Without change and some help from PL , that would be a once in a decade event if that often.

PAllen

April 18th, 2018, 05:32 AM

Likely the reality for Hoyas now. Certainly possible that they could get a gamechanger or two and put together a great year every once in a while. Without change and some help from PL , that would be a once in a decade event if that often.

I have no desire to see the PL help GU with their program until the Hoyas begin to help themselves. Remember, they were admitted on the promise of a nice shiny new on campus stadium. They've played in temporary bleachers on a construction site with no construction ever since the roof of the gym almost caved in. Plenty of multi million dollar buildings have gone up around the stadium site, but the stadium is going from next to nothing towards nothing.

DFW HOYA

April 18th, 2018, 08:20 AM

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQfcN5EAaFs1yr4rb30HvHV7W_DS3u9r SkD0uF09kH8JFFMN6vEEghttps://philosophynow.org/media/images/issues/115/Sisyphus.jpg

RichH2

April 18th, 2018, 09:48 AM

https://philosophynow.org/media/images/issues/115/Sisyphus.jpg

Thanks for the status update on Stadium DFW.xnodx :(

NY Crusader 2010

April 18th, 2018, 10:57 AM

I have no desire to see the PL help GU with their program until the Hoyas begin to help themselves. Remember, they were admitted on the promise of a nice shiny new on campus stadium. They've played in temporary bleachers on a construction site with no construction ever since the roof of the gym almost caved in. Plenty of multi million dollar buildings have gone up around the stadium site, but the stadium is going from next to nothing towards nothing.

At least they throw PL members a bone by frequently scheduling us in men's basketball.

Oh wait....

BucBisonAtLarge

April 19th, 2018, 12:45 PM

Bucknell has announced their new AD--Jermaine Truax, the Deputy Director of Athletics from Loyola-Chicago.

He seems like a great professional but, aside from his undergraduate stint on the gridiron at Edinboro, football doesn't figure prominently in the presented pedigree. Given the frequency with which we change ADs, once a generation, I wish I were more optimistic about our football fortunes. I'm guessing hoops will be fine.

http://www.bucknellbison.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=32100&ATCLID=211712083&_ga=2.233947550.1883445865.1524028796-800182291.1523299052

RichH2

April 19th, 2018, 01:52 PM

Lehigh Football Nation

April 19th, 2018, 03:06 PM

carney2

April 20th, 2018, 08:54 AM

The Lafayette "Study" has been sealed in a time capsule and deposited in a trash can outside Yankee Stadium, site of the last victory over the Brownturds.

RichH2

April 20th, 2018, 11:43 AM

The Lafayette "Study" has been sealed in a time capsule and deposited in a trash can outside Yankee Stadium, site of the last victory over the Brownturds.

I am starting to think the "Study" story is just another myth like unicorns and sasquatch. xsmhx

PAllen

April 20th, 2018, 03:49 PM

I am starting to think the "Study" story is just another myth like unicorns and sasquatch. xsmhx

I think Lafayette should fund a study of the effect of the length of the "study".

RichH2

April 20th, 2018, 05:46 PM

I think Lafayette should fund a study of the effect of the length of the "study".

Oh that is priceless.xbowx Sadly it fits Pards' fixation on justifying futher inaction. xviolinx

DFW HOYA

April 20th, 2018, 06:13 PM

PAllen

April 20th, 2018, 06:43 PM

Lehigh Football Nation

April 20th, 2018, 08:20 PM

B will happen IMO at some point. I know it is not the PL way to listen to public pressure but its becoming a lot harder for Lehigh to basically upgrade every thing else and ignore Goodman. Some combo of public pressure, Beth Steel FC and grousing donors may make a difference. IMHO.

Put it this way. If you want a tenant or people to rent it out, you need lights. The NCAA basically now require lights for postseason. The Steel want lights. There are a lot of forces that want lights, and they are not easy to ignore.

RichH2

April 20th, 2018, 10:58 PM

OK, just for laughs, which of these things happens first:

a) Lafayette publishes "The Study"
b) Lights at Goodman Stadium
c) Eighth team joins PL football
d) Cooper Field finished at Georgetown
e) Holy Cross gets Big East invitation

a) and c) are mythical so I would go with never :)
b) will happen but LU has for reasons I cannot fathom scotched the notion citing make believe cost estimates. Aomeday.
Actually , an 8th football member may happen 1st. Kinda sad in a way as that is at best on the far horizon.

van

April 21st, 2018, 06:44 AM

iBOsbu

April 21st, 2018, 07:17 PM

way way way [to] too early? I just bored xthumbsupx

Lehigh'98

April 22nd, 2018, 06:24 AM

way way way [to] too early? I just bored xthumbsupx

Relax, this isn’t an Ivy League thread. Not surprising though as you’d have a better chance of seeing Bigfoot than anyone under 80 that cares about their football teams.

Son of Eli

April 22nd, 2018, 07:36 PM

Relax, this isn’t an Ivy League thread. Not surprising though as you’d have a better chance of seeing Bigfoot than anyone under 80 that cares about their football teams.

Must be a lot of 80 year olds attending Ivy League games then considering the Ivy League always outdraws the Patriot League. Btw, I'm 49.

Lehigh'98

April 23rd, 2018, 04:58 AM

Must be a lot of 80 year olds attending Ivy League games then considering the Ivy League always outdraws the Patriot League. Btw, I'm 49.

Cmon Eli, I thought you guys had a sense of humor. We love the Ivies around here.

CFBfan

April 23rd, 2018, 08:22 AM

Must be a lot of 80 year olds attending Ivy League games then considering the Ivy League always outdraws the Patriot League. Btw, I'm 49.

silver spoon stuck up your a** eli?

Go...gate

April 23rd, 2018, 03:25 PM

(b), (c) and (d), in that order.

RichH2

April 23rd, 2018, 04:20 PM

Relax, this isn’t an Ivy League thread. Not surprising though as you’d have a better chance of seeing Bigfoot than anyone under 80 that cares about their football teams.
Guess no one in PL buys the Study. We're all getting a birdseye view of what Pard fans have to live with.
Hope you're right about b) but I am not optimistic.

Sader87

April 23rd, 2018, 10:07 PM

No one, and I mean no one, has an older fan-base (per capita) than Holy Cross football (or basketball)....average age is 67.

Go...gate

April 24th, 2018, 05:16 PM

No one, and I mean no one, has an older fan-base (per capita) than Holy Cross football (or basketball)....average age is 67.

Really? Did the grads from the past forty years just walk away?

Sader87

April 24th, 2018, 10:19 PM

Really? Did the grads from the past forty years just walk away?

They don't care....they went to HC during the PL-era

Go...gate

April 26th, 2018, 02:27 AM

They don't care....they went to HC during the PL-era

Nothing to do with the collapse of the program after scholarships ended? HC had only one losing season between 1981 (last year of I-A) to 1992 (the first year after scholarships). They were dominant during much of this period, including the last seven years, when they were in the PL. Did interest decline during that time?

Sader87

April 26th, 2018, 11:19 AM

Nothing to do with the collapse of the program after scholarships ended? HC had only one losing season between 1981 (last year of I-A) to 1992 (the first year after scholarships). They were dominant during much of this period, including the last seven years, when they were in the PL. Did interest decline during that time?

I believe interest was actually dimming during the later stages of the Duffner-era. While it was great to be winning all these games, with no BC game at the end of the season and being ineligible for the playoffs at the time, there was a sense of just playing a string of games...many against schools (other than Colgate) that we really had no history with over the years.

Throw on top of that the ending of scholarship football after 1991 and the program's subsequent struggles....and you have a mix of older grads/fans walking away and new fans from students/locals from then until now not being created.

Thus, getting back to my assertion, the HC fan-dom is very much comprised of "older, hardcore alums/locals" from the late 1950s until into the 1980s or so.

Hopefully the new coach can reinstill some of the fan-dom moving forward.

DFW HOYA

April 26th, 2018, 12:13 PM

Some thoughts from 2015:

http://thebrownandwhite.com/2015/05/04/football-attendance/

Go Lehigh TU Owl

April 26th, 2018, 12:23 PM

Some thoughts from 2015:

http://thebrownandwhite.com/2015/05/04/football-attendance/

That was a really good read!!

Go Lehigh TU Owl

April 26th, 2018, 04:12 PM

I believe interest was actually dimming during the later stages of the Duffner-era. While it was great to be winning all these games, with no BC game at the end of the season and being ineligible for the playoffs at the time, there was a sense of just playing a string of games...many against schools (other than Colgate) that we really had no history with over the years.

Throw on top of that the ending of scholarship football after 1991 and the program's subsequent struggles....and you have a mix of older grads/fans walking away and new fans from students/locals from then until now not being created.

Thus, getting back to my assertion, the HC fan-dom is very much comprised of "older, hardcore alums/locals" from the late 1950s until into the 1980s or so.

Hopefully the new coach can reinstill some of the fan-dom moving forward.

Just spoke with agraduating women's bball player's father who is well connected with HC and knows Father Burroughs quite well. He basically said the administration simply has very little interest in D1 college athletics at a competitive level. The facility improvements are nothing more than superficial and the overall lack of commitment will continue to limit Crusader athletics potential. That's not to say a certain fraction of staunch supporters doesn't exist. Rather, those that are hell bent on re-establishing HC's academic brand tend to be indifferent to athletics. Unfortunately for HC athletics they control the room. I got the impression NP's hands are tied. He can make moves, but the impact of the moves will run only so deep.

The Boogie Down

April 27th, 2018, 03:36 PM

OK, just for laughs, which of these things happens first:
a) Lafayette publishes "The Study"
b) Lights at Goodman Stadium
c) Eighth team joins PL football
d) Cooper Field finished at Georgetown
e) Holy Cross gets Big East invitation

Despite all the HC negativity, I'm picking E! Yeah, I know, sounds far fetched, and of course it is, but hear me out...

Eventually the Big East will expand to 12 teams. I think one of those slots (Saint Louis) will pretty much be a done deal so that leaves just one open spot. Actually, I think the Billikens would already be in had it not been for bad timing. The Catholic 7 divorce came during the 2012-13 school year, one of the worst in Saint Louis history. First of all Rick Majerus was forced out due to poor health, which sadly, just weeks later, also cost him his life. While that tragedy unfolded, an even bigger name on campus, Father Lawrence Biondi, was also being disposed. The man who spent decades building the school as its president was going through a series of no-confidence votes that eventually led to his ouster. From what I understand it was more than time for Biondi to leave but just a decade earlier he had been one of the best known presidents within the Jebbie community. As for Majerus, well, he coulda been the type of force the old Big East was used to during the Thompson, Boeheim, Massimino, Carnesecca glory days.

Today Saint Louis is led by Fred Pestello, a layman. Travis Ford is the hoops coach and neither is a larger than life figure. Still, Ford has the Billikens inching back towards the postseason while Pestello has been shattering fundraising records. It shouldn’t be too long before the Big East takes notice.

Overall I’d say Saint Louis brings a good history, great facilities, great crowds, great endowment, decent academics, a good market and would also give Creighton a travel partner. Together with Creighton they also help expand the Big East footprint into the Midwestern plains. Not nearly enough to ever make people forget about Nebraska and Missouri but it’s something.

So that leaves one more spot:
A) Dayton: Great history, great facilities, great crowds, good endowment, good academics BUT small market and Southwest Ohio is already covered w/Xavier.

B) Loyola: Mediocre history (minus the 1960s and this past season), mediocre facilities, mediocre crowds, great endowment, decent academics. So, aside from Sister Jean and the school's endowment, not much here but Chicago is a huge market. Can Loyola keep it up? Will DePaul, in their new arena, ever turn things around? Could they combine to become the type of local, in-conference rivalry that never developed between St. John's and Seton Hall?

Either way the problem with both picks is that if Saint Louis is taken when the Big East expands, then the Midwest would be covered while the East would still need an extra spot.

So scratch off both A and B from the short list. A Billikens addition would specifically lead to one more Eastern school:
C) UConn: By far, and for a plethora of reasons, everyone's very top choice. Let's repeat that... Still, I don't see it happening. Not with all the money UConn has already put into football as well as the fact that in the olympic sports, the AAC is already pretty comparable to the Big East. Of course UConn hates the AAC but football will keep them there until the ACC eventually sends an e-vite. Might be a loooong time for that text to come but as long as the ACC has UConn's number, the Big East will be wary of the entire situation.

D) Saint Joe's: Good history, good facilities, good crowds, below average endowment, below average academics, great market BUT, Villanova will never-ever-ever let this happen.

E) Richmond: Decent history, great facilities, good crowds, great endowment, great academics, decent market BUT would adding Richmond do much to change the fact that Virginia is hardcore ACC country? Would even adding a large state school (not that the Big East is interested in large state schools) like VCU instead, change that fact?

F) HOLY CROSS: Mediocre history, mediocre facilities, mediocre crowds, great endowment, great academics and helps bring the Boston area back into the Big East fold. Along with Providence College grads living in Boston, this helps the Big East expand its footprint back into Beantown. Especially with BC floundering (one post season win, an NIT one at that, since 2007) in the ACC for a full decade now. Of course that's still better than Holy Cross. The Crusaders haven't won an NIT game since 2005 and (not counting a recent "First Four" play-in game) haven't won and NCAA game since 1953 but as late as the Ralph Willard era, Cross was competitive against mid-majors. In fact, I’d go as far as to say that, even in the Patriot League, those Willard teams were better than the junk Seton Hall and Providence brought to the original Big East. Better than the junk DePaul brought the new Big East too.

Sounds like a long shot but I do think the Big East will expand and do think Saint Louis will land an expansion spot. Offsetting that with an Eastern team leaves few great options. UConn is obviously the big one but as long as their ultimate goal is the ACC, I don’t see the Big East going through that song & dance again. After UConn who’s left? Holy Cross is as good as anyone else. To me at least, as I've just detailed, they’re better!

RichH2

April 27th, 2018, 04:01 PM

Does actually make sense in a roundabout way. Given the current stance of Holy Cross Admin, does not appear to have any chance at all.

TheValleyRaider

April 28th, 2018, 10:54 AM

As good a place as any to post this: Colgate found their new AD

http://gocolgateraiders.com/news/2018/4/27/general-nicki-moore-named-colgate-vice-president-director-of-athletics.aspx

Nicki Moore has been selected to lead Colgate's athletics (http://www.gocolgateraiders.com/), recreation and physical education programs, following a national search for a new athletics director. Colgate sponsors 25 Division I (http://www.colgate.edu/distinctly-colgate/athletics) teams with more than 500 student-athletes.

Moore comes to Colgate from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where she has served as Senior Associate Athletic Director and Senior Woman Administrator since 2015. Starting July 1, Moore will step into a role formerly held by Colgate alumna Victoria Chun '91, MA'94, who was recently named Athletic Director at Yale University (https://news.colgate.edu/2018/02/victoria-chun-91-ma94-named-director-of-athletics-at-yale-university.html/).

Sounds like a good hire, but we won't really know for a year or two

PAllen

April 28th, 2018, 11:43 AM

As good a place as any to post this: Colgate found their new AD

http://gocolgateraiders.com/news/2018/4/27/general-nicki-moore-named-colgate-vice-president-director-of-athletics.aspx

Sounds like a good hire, but we won't really know for a year or two

So when do the "athletics studies" majors start?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

DFW HOYA

April 28th, 2018, 12:17 PM

So when do the "athletics studies" majors start?

The faculty who would be shocked, shocked to see Colgate offer such a major would be nonplussed that it also offers majors in Creative Writing, Film & Media Studies, and LGBTQ Studies.

If the school determines that the study of these areas is suitable for an academic setting, the study of sport and society may be, too. It is offered at such football factories as Ithaca College, Bryant University, and St. Thomas Aquinas (NY).

https://bigfuture.collegeboard.org/college-search?major=2251_Sports%20Studies

RichH2

April 28th, 2018, 12:23 PM

While we kill time awaiting Patsys and the summer doldrums, coaches are out recruiting next year's class. Junior days are done. Football camps dont start until June. Holy Cross has leapt out to an early lead with 45 offers. Colgate in 2nd I think with 30. Lehigh and Lafayette in the low single digits. Anyone have any info on Rams, Bison and Hoyas?

DFW HOYA

April 28th, 2018, 07:47 PM

Eventually the Big East will expand to 12 teams...

F) HOLY CROSS: Mediocre history, mediocre facilities, mediocre crowds, great endowment, great academics and helps bring the Boston area back into the Big East fold. Along with Providence College grads living in Boston, this helps the Big East expand its footprint back into Beantown. Especially with BC floundering (one post season win, an NIT one at that, since 2007) in the ACC for a full decade now. Of course that's still better than Holy Cross. The Crusaders haven't won an NIT game since 2005 and (not counting a recent "First Four" play-in game) haven't won and NCAA game since 1953 but as late as the Ralph Willard era, Cross was competitive against mid-majors. In fact, I’d go as far as to say that, even in the Patriot League, those Willard teams were better than the junk Seton Hall and Providence brought to the original Big East. Better than the junk DePaul brought the new Big East too.

Sounds like a long shot but I do think the Big East will expand and do think Saint Louis will land an expansion spot. Offsetting that with an Eastern team leaves few great options. UConn is obviously the big one but as long as their ultimate goal is the ACC, I don’t see the Big East going through that song & dance again. After UConn who’s left? Holy Cross is as good as anyone else. To me at least, as I've just detailed, they’re better!

Why does a Division I conference seek to expand? Three reasons:

1. Backfill for a member school that leaves;
2. Adding a school whose competitive posture that elevates the league as a whole; or
3. Increasing the value for TV contracts.

To state the obvious, Holy Cross does not meet any of these three for the Big East and does not for the forseeable future.

Since Rev. Brooks gave the Bronx cheer to joining the conference in 1979, the Cross has not been in any serious conference discussion. Twice in the last 20 years the Big East has had to backfill and HC wasn't a contender when Marquette and DePaul arrived in 2005 nor when Butler, Creighton and Xavier arrived in 2013.

Clues abound. Holy Cross averages 1,797 a game vs. the Big East average of 10,314. It has one NCAA post-season win since 1953, in a 2016 play-in game versus Southern. Its last appearance in the AP rankings was Jan. 16, 1978. It's budget for men's basketball is $2.1 million compared to budgets of $7-10 million among most Big East schools.

The fact is that the Big East is settling in at ten schools and doesn't need to expand. The TV contract is in place through 2026, the Garden is selling out for the conference tournament, and Villanova has won two titles for the conference. (If Georgetown and St. John's can get its acts together, even better.) If HC really, really wanted to move up (and there's little evidence it wants to), it would move up to the MAAC and then to the A-10, and then let's have a conversation. Until then, it's not much of one.

- - - Updated - - -

Go Lehigh TU Owl

April 28th, 2018, 08:17 PM

Anthony Coyle was signed as a UDFA by the Texans.

I can't believe TP hasn't been picked up yet. He was dominant last year....

RichH2

April 28th, 2018, 10:58 PM

Troy is invited to the Eagles.
Zach Duffy to the Colts.

Sader87

April 30th, 2018, 12:53 PM

Pujals FA to Vikes (staying in purple hopefully)...Murray (OL) FA to KC

Lehigh Football Nation

April 30th, 2018, 01:36 PM

Good luck to all of the PL roster invitees. Gonna be interesting to see whether Troy can crack that 53 man roster. It's going to come down to ST play I think.

The Boogie Down

May 7th, 2018, 03:22 PM

Why does a Division I conference seek to expand? Three reasons:
1. Backfill for a member school that leaves;
2. Adding a school whose competitive posture that elevates the league as a whole; or
3. Increasing the value for TV contracts.

To state the obvious, Holy Cross does not meet any of these three for the Big East and does not for the forseeable future.

With all due respect to someone who can make Leo McLaughlin AND Damon Lopez references, no it's not obvious (emphasis mine) that HC doesn't meet that third criteria. What is obvious is that the BE has no schools in the Boston television market and Holy Cross is a school inside that market. Those are facts. It's my opinion that the addition of Holy Cross (along with charter member Providence) could bring some sort of local media BE buzz back to Boston. Not the type that existed before BC jumped ship, but at least something.

Since Rev. Brooks gave the Bronx cheer to joining the conference in 1979, the Cross has not been in any serious conference discussion. Twice in the last 20 years the Big East has had to backfill and HC wasn't a contender when Marquette and DePaul arrived in 2005 nor when Butler, Creighton and Xavier arrived in 2013.

Since Rev. Brooks gave the Bronx cheer to joining the conference in 1979, the Cross has not been in any serious conference discussion because there were soooo many other options. Aside from UConn, how many other East coast options are left? Siena?

Clues abound. Holy Cross averages 1,797 a game vs. the Big East average of 10,314.

I'm gonna guess that not a single BE charter member averaged anywhere close to 10,314 per game before the Big East's creation. In fact, I don't hafta guess since the info is out there. Georgetown averaged 2,657 during its inaugural BE season. A few years before joining, Villanova averaged 2,361. And those numbers came against a mostly high-powered Eastern-Indy schedule, not against a Patriot League schedule.

It has one NCAA post-season win since 1953, in a 2016 play-in game versus Southern.

Considering I already posted this, not sure why you'd respond with this.

Its last appearance in the AP rankings was Jan. 16, 1978. It's budget for men's basketball is $2.1 million compared to budgets of $7-10 million among most Big East schools.

That $2.1M budget comes after receiving $0.0M in Fox TV money. Wonder how much things would change after landing a $50.0M check from Fox?

The fact is that the Big East is settling in at ten schools and doesn't need to expand.

Actually, that's an opinion. A good one since, aside from UConn, there hasn't been much recent talk of BE expansion, but it's still an opinion. Facts say that during this decade alone all 10 FBS conferences have expanded. 9 of 13 FCS conferences (all but the Ivies, NEC, SWAC and the football playing Patsies) have expanded. All 11 of the non-football D-1 conferences have expanded too. Again, that's just in this decade alone.

So yeah, your opinion might be correct, but being that these conferences don't live in vacuums, chances are (again 30 of 34 D-1 conferences have already expanded in this decade alone) a future expansion will happen.

The TV contract is in place through 2026, the Garden is selling out for the conference tournament, and Villanova has won two titles for the conference.

The current TV contract already has a $100M provision in place for a 2 team expansion. While the next contract doesn't go into effect until 2026, a whole lotta i's will need dotting and tees cross-ing long before then. It's my opinion that adding the Boston television market (St. Louis television market too in the Billikens' case) would be extremely beneficial to the rest of the conference.

As for Villanova, the won for Villanova, not for the conference. Hell, I'd be willing to bet that if by 2026 Villanova were to elevate their football program they'd be too busy negotiating w/the ACC to bother with anything Fox would be throwing out to the BE.

(If Georgetown and St. John's can get its acts together, even better.) If HC really, really wanted to move up (and there's little evidence it wants to), it would move up to the MAAC and then to the A-10, and then let's have a conversation. Until then, it's not much of one.
- - - Updated - - -

I don't know about Georgetown and St. John's specifically but aside from Villanova the "New BE" has been pretty mid-majorish... In fact, aside from the Wildcats, the entire conference has combined for 0 finalists, 0 Final Fours, 0 Elite Eights and only 2 Sweet Sixteens. Still beetter than the A-10 (which has accepted a member directly from the PL), but only marginally so.

That's not to say I think HC hoops could come close to playing w/BE members right now. And none of this is to say that I think HC will end up in the BE one day. But one day the BE will expand and, with what's left, I can't see how the Cross doesn't at least make a short list. Again, who else is out there?

DFW HOYA

May 7th, 2018, 09:13 PM

Thanks for the thorough reply. While it doesn't carry the momentum of the Study or lights at Goodman, it's certainly a good off-season topic.

The argument that the Big East should look to Holy Cross someday follows much the same logical fallacy if I was to argue that CAA football should look to Georgetown. It follows this thinking:

1. Teams in the CAA are very successful.
2. Georgetown is not very successful outside the CAA.
3. The CAA does not have a team in Washington DC.
4. Adding a team from the Washington area would be good for the CAA. Ergo...
5. Georgetown would be very successful in the CAA.

Or, for this argument...

1. Teams in the Big East are very successful.
2. Holy Cross is not very successful outside the Big East
3. The Big East does not have a team in the Boston area....

Some thoughts:

1. The Boston "market" is an illusion of sorts. Put aside the fact that Boston is not a college basketball town, HC is 47 miles to the west and Providence is 50 miles to the southwest. Neither deliver the market (nor would BU, for that matter). The Big East has been out of the Boston market for over a decade, out of the Pittsburgh and Hartford markets for five years, and skipped past the Baltimore market entirely--the Baltimore media sports coverage does not tread south of College Park. The Big East was built of TV markets in the days before omni-channel cable and direct-to-customer communications. It no longer drives decisions the way it used to.

2. "Aside from UConn, how many other East coast options are left?" Well, the A-10 has always been a launching pad for BE schools--in fact, six different BE schools over the years (Villanova, Pitt, Virginia Tech, Rutgers, Xavier, Butler) played in the EIBL/E-8/A-10. Any number of A-10 schools harbor hopes of getting the next call (in no particular order, Dayton, Davidson, Richmond, VCU, St. Louis, and UMass) but as long as the Crusaders play downstream in the PL, they're not going to be on that food chain.

3. Yes, Georgetown averaged 2,657 during its inaugural BE season....in an aging 3600 seat gym with bleachers on the stage to get it to 4,000. The league has grown tremendously since then, and I don't see any expansion candidate averaging less than 6,000 a game getting anyone's attention. For HC, that would mean moving most or all games to the DCU, and with all that has been spent on the Hart Center, it's not in the cards.

4. "The current TV contract already has a $100M provision in place for a two team expansion." Yes it does and that's a nice card to play. But Fox Sports will make that call.

5. "I'd be willing to bet that if by 2026 Villanova were to elevate their football program they'd be too busy negotiating w/the ACC to bother with anything Fox would be throwing out to the BE." Much like Boston in college basketball, Philadelphia is not a college football town. Villanova was within a week of a decision to move back to I-A when Pitt pulled the rug underneath their plans and announced the move to the ACC. It's hard to see Villanova or Temple being impactful enough to raise the ACC's interest.

Hmmm, teams in the ACC are very successful, and well, you know...xlolx

Colgate Raider Redux

May 14th, 2018, 09:13 AM

'Gate Coach Hunt's assessment of returnees-starters-depth by position group, post Spring practice.
Just the facts.

OFFENSE

QB'S: https://gocolgateraiders.com/news/2018/5/7/spring-football-recap-quarterbacks.aspx?path=football (https://gocolgateraiders.com/news/2018/5/7/spring-football-recap-quarterbacks.aspx?path=football)

RB'S: https://gocolgateraiders.com/news/2018/5/4/spring-football-recap-running-backs.aspx?path=football

RECEIVERS: https://gocolgateraiders.com/news/2018/5/7/spring-football-recap-receivers-tight-ends.aspx?path=football

O. LINE: https://gocolgateraiders.com/news/2018/5/4/spring-football-recap-offensive-line.aspx?path=football

DEFENSE

SECONDARY: https://gocolgateraiders.com/news/2018/5/7/spring-football-recap-secondary.aspx?path=football (https://gocolgateraiders.com/news/2018/5/7/spring-football-recap-secondary.aspx?path=football)

LINEBACKERS: https://gocolgateraiders.com/news/2018/5/7/spring-football-recap-linebackers.aspx?path=football

D. LiINE: https://gocolgateraiders.com/news/2018/5/7/spring-football-recap-defensive-line.aspx?path=football

SPECIAL TEAMS
https://gocolgateraiders.com/news/2018/5/12/spring-football-recap-special-teams.aspx?path=football

RichH2

May 14th, 2018, 10:41 AM

Colgate Raider Redux

May 14th, 2018, 11:09 AM

No surprises. This is why Gate must be the odds on favorite. Admit to a big chunk of jealousy. Hunt gives out actual info on his players and units. Unfortunately Coen follows the Lehigh policy of handing out generic pablum. Other than stating the obvious there is scant actual info ever disclosed by staff. Hell, there have been times when we didnt even know all the players on the team much less how they were doing.

This is a first, in the level of detail given.

Notably missing link: the "team hunger and/or chemistry throughout the season" isn't something that can be accurately predicted.
Interestingly, hopes were high when the 2016 team returned most of the starters from the 2015 two game post-season playoff winning streak.
Many 'Gate fans were surprised that this veteran spirited squad couldn't take it to the next higher gear in 2016.
So, who knows ? ( Oh yeah....."that's why we play the game.")

Go Lehigh TU Owl

May 14th, 2018, 11:16 AM

This is a first, in the level of detail given.

Notably missing link: the "team hunger and/or chemistry throughout the season" isn't something that can be accurately predicted.
Interestingly, hopes were high when the 2016 team returned most of the starters from the 2015 two game post-season playoff run.
Many 'Gate fans were surprised that this veteran spirited squad couldn't take it to the next higher gear in 2016.
So, who knows ? ( Oh yeah....."that's why we play the game.")

Colgate hasn't posted back-2-back winning seasons in nearly a decade. So there's definitely reason to doubt if Colgate can build off of last season.

Colgate and Lehigh should be favorites but both are extremely shaky. Both school's OOC will tell a lot imo....

DFW HOYA

May 14th, 2018, 12:07 PM

Colgate and Lehigh should be favorites but both are extremely shaky. Both school's OOC will tell a lot imo....

"Should be" favorites? They are the favorites for the next 2-4 years, if not longer.

Go Lehigh TU Owl

May 14th, 2018, 12:41 PM

"Should be" favorites? They are the favorites for the next 2-4 years, if not longer.

Odds are that Fordham turns things around. I like their "football culture"....

DFW HOYA

May 14th, 2018, 12:42 PM

Odds are that Fordham turns things around. I like their "football culture"....

I can give you two guesses for schools that won't be turning it around...

Go Lehigh TU Owl

May 14th, 2018, 12:47 PM

I can give you two guesses for schools that won't be turning it around...

At this point I'd probably go with Georgetown and Holy Cross. Georgetown for obvious reasons and Holy Cross because their entire athletic department is a dumpster fire. They suck at everything. Lafayette is probably a close 3rd.

RichH2

May 14th, 2018, 01:12 PM

"Should be" favorites? They are the favorites for the next 2-4 years, if not longer.

Perhaps so. Gate on paper certainly seems able to do so. As owl points out, Raiders have had issues with putting a string of winning seasons together. Lehigh has a more major rebuilding facing the team in 19. Agree that Fordham could be the team to watch in 19-20. Cross and Pards are both wait and see programs.

Colgate Raider Redux

May 14th, 2018, 06:23 PM

At this point I'd probably go with Georgetown and Holy Cross.

It may be true that both Georgetown and Holy Cross won't be "turning it around."

But the consequences of the "turnaround failure" on the rwo institutions couldn't be more of a dichotomy within the PL narrative. From my perspective, Georgetown is a great national institution where football's fortunes will have little impact on its national brand. In contrast, the deterioration of Holy Cross's national brand has been the catalyst propelling their football program into institutional-social-climbing-scheduling.They're desperate to bring some luster back to their brand, even if by the illusion of association.

Frankly, I understand that channeling more financial resourses for Georgetown's football program may have an insignificant impact on the institution's brand. I think the PL should be able to live with Geotgetown as is. Georgetown's departure from the PL would be a significant loss for the conference brand. At this point, I think Holy Cross has become an anomaly in the PL. The risk is not just failing to turn it around. They could end up dropping the sport. Their departure from the PL football/arhletics conference, taking with them their test-optional admissions policy and 40% acceptance rate, will openly confirm how far it has fallen away from the academic/athletic niche of PL institutons.

RichH2

May 14th, 2018, 07:18 PM

It may be true that both Georgetown and Holy Cross won't be "turning it around."

But the consequences of the"turnaround failure" on the rwo institutions couldn't be more of a dichotomy within the PL narrative. From my perspective, Georgetown is a great national institution where football's fortune's will have little impact on its national brand. In contrast, the deterioration of Holy Cross's national brand has been the catalyst propelling their football program into institutional-social climbing scheduling.They're desperate to bring some luster back to their brand, even if by the illusion of association.

Frankly, I respect and for the sake of the PL can live with Geotgetown as is. Georgetown's departure from the PL would be a significant loss for the conference brand. At this point, I consider Holy Cross anamoly in the PL. Their departure from the PL football/arhletics conference, with their test-optional admissions policy and 40% acceptance rate, will openly confirm how far it has fallen away from the academic/athletic niche of PL institutons.

Gate's acceptance is actually that high? Surprising but I doubt that one factor has any probative value as to Gate's future with the PL. Where would Gate go?

Colgate Raider Redux

May 14th, 2018, 08:01 PM

Where would Gate go?

Gate....dunno ?

But, many Holy Cross fans suggest football could be dropped if it doesn't turn around in 5 (?) years.

DFW HOYA

May 14th, 2018, 08:30 PM

Gate's acceptance is actually that high? Surprising but I doubt that one factor has any probative value as to Gate's future with the PL. Where would Gate go?

Acceptance rates below. Georgetown's is even more remarkable because it does not accept the Common Application, which would drive its acceptance rates into single digits, and still requires three essays and an interview.

Georgetown 14%
Lehigh 22%
Lafayette 28%
Colgate 29%
Bucknell 31%
Holy Cross 39%
Fordham 45%

RichH2

May 14th, 2018, 08:47 PM

Gate....dunno ?

But, many Holy Cross fans suggest football could be dropped if it doesn't turn around in 5 (?) years.

I discount that. Cross board is a manic-depressive phantasm of hyperbolic mood swings. Entertaining but not a particularly.reliable predictive organ.

Go Lehigh TU Owl

May 14th, 2018, 09:08 PM

Acceptance rates below. Georgetown's is even more remarkable because it does not accept the Common Application, which would drive its acceptance rates into single digits, and still requires three essays and an interview.

Georgetown 14%
Lehigh 22%
Lafayette 28%
Colgate 29%
Bucknell 31%
Holy Cross 39%
Fordham 45%

Fordham's rate is a bit surprising. Even so it's a great school. I think they can have a higher acceptance rate knowing that ultimately the Bronx/NYC is very much a niche location. I loved Fordham when I visited it during the early stages of my college search. Ultimately, Broad Street and the Schuylkill Expressway were enough fun to negotiate.

Bill

May 14th, 2018, 10:21 PM

CR Redux,
You wrote "At this point, Holy Cross's departure from the PL football/arhletics, with its test-optional admissions policy and 40% acceptance rate, will openly confirm how far it has fallen away from the academic/athletic niche of PL institutions."

Could you expand upon that more for me? A link to a story or study...I'm curious to find our more about this. I've been away from the league's academics for a few years now, and was surprised to hear that.

Thanks!

RichH2

May 15th, 2018, 10:33 AM

Holy Cross is hung between the remembered glories of decades gone by and today's reality. Their acceptance rate is truly an anomaly in the PL. It does not to my mind so severely demean their academic standing so as to warrant a move out of PL. Given our AI it has little, if any , impact on athletics. Their AD is its own dumpster fire. Why? At base it is the battle between Admissions and the AD. Pine has energized the AD but it still has not found its footing. We'll see how Chesney does in rebuilding football.

DFW HOYA

May 15th, 2018, 11:53 AM

Holy Cross is hung between the remembered glories of decades gone by and today's reality.

HC is also battling a foe it cannot conquer: demographics. The ample supply of Catholic high school grads from the Northeast that filled its classrooms for years is in inexorable decline compared to growth in the South and West, where the idea of living in Worcester doesn't match the experience of Tuscaloosa or Boulder or Austin.

By dropping the requirement for test scores, HC is tacitly admitting it needs all the applications it can get right now. And while all the smaller PL schools have to eventually deal with a population decrease in one form or another, HC is especially vulnerable. Consider this quote (emphasis added): "The current flattening and subsequent decline in thenumber of high school graduates is largely fueled by consistent declines in the majority white public school student population, which is projected to decrease by 17 percent, down a quarter of a million high school graduates from 1.84 million in 2013 to 1.59 million in 2032. In addition, the number of high school graduates from private religious and nonsectarian schools is projected to decline at an even greater rate than the overall trend (26 percent).

https://www.wiche.edu/info/publications/2017JulyDataInsightsKnocking-WesternFINAL.pdf

Colgate Raider Redux

May 15th, 2018, 12:23 PM

And while all the smaller PL schools have to eventually deal with a population decrease in one form or another, HC is especially vulnerable.

DFW is correct that it starts with demographics. That info is publicly available. My perspective has been further shaped by anecdotal info I've received from friends who are HC alums:

1. Failure to grow/diversify its student body applicants geographically ( domestically and internationally ), relative to schools nationally, especially schools in the Northeast.

2. The Fr. Brooks "athletic entertainment ban" is symbolic of other decisions. That decision fits into a category we'll call the "internal tension between practical secular governance decision-making to keep HC competitive on a broad scale while maintaining its commitment to its Jesuit tradition and leadership."

3. Maintaining a competitive niche as the elite Catholic liberal arts college may be a marketing challenge greater than the other PL institutions face.

And while we're at it..... These objective factoids underscore how ham-handed and counter-productive Sader87's narrative has been promoting the PL as the catalyst for HC's ( athletic ) problems. I truly believe Sader87 is a devoted HC alum who wants to promote his alma mater. He couldn't have done a worse job as an HC ambassador on this board.

RichH2

May 15th, 2018, 12:28 PM

HC is also battling a foe it cannot conquer: demographics. The ample supply of Catholic high school grads from the Northeast that filled its classrooms for years is in inexorable decline compared to growth in the South and West, where the idea of living in Worcester doesn't match the experience of Tuscaloosa or Boulder or Austin.

By dropping the requirement for test scores, HC is tacitly admitting it needs all the applications it can get right now. And while all the smaller PL schools have to eventually deal with a population decrease in one form or another, HC is especially vulnerable. Consider this quote (emphasis added): "The current flattening and subsequent decline in thenumber of high school graduates is largely fueled by consistent declines in the majority white public school student population, which is projected to decrease by 17 percent, down a quarter of a million high school graduates from 1.84 million in 2013 to 1.59 million in 2032. In addition, the number of high school graduates from private religious and nonsectarian schools is projected to decline at an even greater rate than the overall trend (26 percent).

https://www.wiche.edu/info/publications/2017JulyDataInsightsKnocking-WesternFINAL.pdf

Scanning Cross current offers you can see the broadening of their search particularly to Texas. Still a very large emphasis on Catholic HS prosepects but now nationwide.
Agree Cross, unlike Hoyas, has a smaller niche given its more religious outward persona.

DFW HOYA

May 15th, 2018, 12:51 PM

Scanning Cross current offers you can see the broadening of their search particularly to Texas. Still a very large emphasis on Catholic HS prosepects but now nationwide.
Agree Cross, unlike Hoyas, has a smaller niche given its more religious outward persona.

Maybe in football recruiting, but it's an institutional issue. Over 90% of Catholic high school grads in Texas go to public schools, so the ties to going to a Catholic college aren't strong, and their ranks at non-Catholic schools in the state are notable. Example: Catholics are the largest religious group at Texas A&M, the largest at Southern Methodist, and the second largest at Baylor, the most prominent Baptist university in the nation. By contrast, paying $60K to go to places like Worcester or Providence are going to be a tougher sell.

RichH2

May 15th, 2018, 03:29 PM

Maybe in football recruiting, but it's an institutional issue. Over 90% of Catholic high school grads in Texas go to public schools, so the ties to going to a Catholic college aren't strong, and their ranks at non-Catholic schools in the state are notable. Example: Catholics are the largest religious group at Texas A&M, the largest at Southern Methodist, and the second largest at Baylor, the most prominent Baptist university in the nation. By contrast, paying $60K to go to places like Worcester or Providence are going to be a tougher sell.

That is my point. Almost all of the Texas offers are to kids in public schools. A smaller % is to kids in non Catholic private preps . Very few Catholic HS kids. The niche for a small private Catholic college is vanishingly small. Looking across multiple sports, it does appear that Cross is trying to broaden their recruiting base. A very hard sell IMO.

Go...gate

May 16th, 2018, 02:57 AM

Fifty years ago, many more Catholic kids went to a Catholic college - it was drilled into one's head that going to a non-Catholic institution was unacceptable. No longer.

RichH2

May 16th, 2018, 08:39 AM

Fifty years ago, many more Catholic kids went to a Catholic college - it was drilled into one's head that going to a non-Catholic institution was unacceptable. No longer.

Absolutely. I had a little over 400 guys in my grad class. Not all went on to college but over 92% of those that did went to Catholic colleges. I was one of the very few outliers. None of my kids went to a Catholuc college.

RichH2

May 16th, 2018, 02:19 PM

DFW is correct that it starts with demographics. That info is publicly available. My perspective has been further shaped by anecdotal info I've received from friends who are HC alums:

1. Failure to grow/diversify its student body applicants geographically ( domestically and internationally ), relative to schools nationally, especially schools in the Northeast.

2. The Fr. Brooks "athletic entertainment ban" is symbolic of other decisions. That decision fits into a category we'll call the "internal tension between practical secular governance decision-making to keep HC competitive on a broad scale while maintaining its commitment to its Jesuit tradition and leadership."

3. Maintaining a competitive niche as the elite Catholic liberal arts college may be a marketing challenge greater than the other PL institutions face.

And while we're at it..... These objective factoids underscore how ham-handed and counter-productive Sader87's narrative has been promoting the PL as the catalyst for HC's ( athletic ) problems. I truly believe Sader87 is a devoted HC alum who wants to promote his alma mater. He couldn't have done a worse job as an HC ambassador on this board.
The NCAA APR awards came out today. The Fr.Brooks' approach does appear to have succeeded at Holy Cross. I note Lehigh and Bucknell are also there without a calamitous impact on sports. The two are mot mutually exclusive. The difference,I agree, is the policies implemented by the colleges to achieve athletically and academically.

Fordham

May 18th, 2018, 11:48 AM

The NCAA APR awards came out today. The Fr.Brooks' approach does appear to have succeeded at Holy Cross. I note Lehigh and Bucknell are also there without a calamitous impact on sports. The two are mot mutually exclusive. The difference,I agree, is the policies implemented by the colleges to achieve athletically and academically.
https://web3.ncaa.org/aprsearch/aprawards

I'm showing Fordham, Lafayette and Georgetown for '16 - '17 from the PL. Where am I missing HC, Lehigh and Bucknell? Only asking because of the multitude of tweets I saw about Fordham yesterday about this. Genuinely curious - not throwing stones.

Sport
School
State
Academic Year

Football FCS (2010 and later)
Brown University
RI
2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)
Columbia University-Barnard College
NY
2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)
Cornell University
NY
2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)
Dartmouth College
NH
2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)
Fordham University
NY
2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)
Georgetown University
DC
2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)
Lafayette College
PA
2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)
Princeton University
NJ
2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)
University of New Hampshire
NH
2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)
University of Pennsylvania
PA
2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)
Villanova University
PA
2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)
Yale University
CT
2016-2017

RichH2

May 18th, 2018, 12:25 PM

https://web3.ncaa.org/aprsearch/aprawards

I'm showing Fordham, Lafayette and Georgetown for '16 - '17 from the PL. Where am I missing HC, Lehigh and Bucknell? Only asking because of the multitude of tweets I saw about Fordham yesterday about this. Genuinely curious - not throwing stones.

Sport
School
State
Academic Year

Football FCS (2010 and later)
Brown University
RI
2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)
Columbia University-Barnard College
NY
2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)
Cornell University
NY
2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)
Dartmouth College
NH
2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)
Fordham University
NY
2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)
Georgetown University
DC
2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)
Lafayette College
PA
2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)
Princeton University
NJ
2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)
University of New Hampshire
NH
2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)
University of Pennsylvania
PA
2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)
Villanova University
PA
2016-2017

Football FCS (2010 and later)
Yale University
CT
2016-2017

There are various APR awards given by the NCAA. I got the info from NCAA site. I note that NCAA tweeted out the awards also.

RichH2

May 18th, 2018, 12:42 PM

Schools with higjest % of teams recriving APR honors
Holy Cross 79%
Lehigh. 70%
Schools with highest % of teams with perfect APR scores
Holy Cross. 71%
Lehigh. 65%
GU. 64%
Bucknell. 60%
Conferences with highest % of teams receiving APR honors
Ivy. 49%
PL. 47%
BigE. 42%
ACC. 32%

DFW HOYA

May 18th, 2018, 12:59 PM

2. The Fr. Brooks "athletic entertainment ban" is symbolic of other decisions. That decision fits into a category we'll call the "internal tension between practical secular governance decision-making to keep HC competitive on a broad scale while maintaining its commitment to its Jesuit tradition and leadership."

I think it was less about secular/Jesuit leadership and more about John Brooks.

Excepting a year in grad school in Pennsylvania, a year in Jesuit tertianship in Connecticut, and a year in Rome, Rev. Brooks literally spent his entire life in either Boston or Worcester, where his vision of "the academy", a community of scholars, was rooted in the small college traditions of New England.

His loyalty to HC is unquestioned, but he was not comfortable with the changes going on at BC and Georgetown (two schools that Holy Cross still considered its peers), of which athletics was becoming a visible part.

Maybe he didn't want to see Mt. St. James need a 45,000 seat Fitton Stadium to play Pitt and Syracuse. Maybe the small college model was to be preserved at the expense of the inexorable trends elsewhere, and athletics needed to follow that direction or else. Maybe Peter Likins was just more convincing than Dave Gavitt. More than all of these, maybe the glory of the past was more important than the promise of the future.

Rev. Brooks famously said he was not in the sports entertainment business, and he may well have been directing that at the presidents of BC and Georgetown, two Jesuits he knew well. A generation later, BC and Georgetown are no longer peers at HC, its athletics vision is decidedly regional, and the athletic experience still seems about "what was", and not "what is to be". A different quote from Rev. Brooks is more telling. "We have created a model for others to follow," he said in looking back on the Patriot League. "So far, no one has followed."

RichH2

May 18th, 2018, 01:40 PM

I think it was less about secular/Jesuit leadership and more about John Brooks.

Excepting a year in grad school in Pennsylvania, a year in Jesuit tertianship in Connecticut, and a year in Rome, Rev. Brooks literally spent his entire life in either Boston or Worcester, where his vision of "the academy", a community of scholars, was rooted in the small college traditions of New England.

His loyalty to HC is unquestioned, but he was not comfortable with the changes going on at BC and Georgetown (two schools that Holy Cross still considered its peers), of which athletics was becoming a visible part.

Maybe he didn't want to see Mt. St. James need a 45,000 seat Fitton Stadium to play Pitt and Syracuse. Maybe the small college model was to be preserved at the expense of the inexorable trends elsewhere, and athletics needed to follow that direction or else. Maybe Peter Likins was just more convincing than Dave Gavitt. More than all of these, maybe the glory of the past was more important than the promise of the future.

Rev. Brooks famously said he was not in the sports entertainment business, and he may well have been directing that at the presidents of BC and Georgetown, two Jesuits he knew well. A generation later, BC and Georgetown are no longer peers at HC, its athletics vision is decidedly regional, and the athletic experience still seems about "what was", and not "what is to be". A different quote from Rev. Brooks is more telling. "We have created a model for others to follow," he said in looking back on the Patriot League. "So far, no one has followed."

Well said. Provides a vital aspect of why Holy Cross is the way it is. Yet it does beg the question why has Holy Cross been unable to pursue athletic success as well as academic. Little doubt Cross Admissions Dept ,in its quest to fulfill Fr.Brooks' dream , took an antagonistic stance with athletic admissions. Over the last few years under Pine AD has been able to work out a more accommodating process with Admissions apparently. It takes years to rebuild an athletic program. It appears that College administration is at least amenable to athletic goals.
One only has to look at Easton to see the results of a hostile athletic- academic relationship.

Go...gate

May 18th, 2018, 03:58 PM

RichH2

May 18th, 2018, 07:06 PM

And while we're at it..... These objective factoids underscore how ham-handed and counter-productive Sader87's narrative has been promoting the PL as the catalyst for HC's ( athletic ) problems. I truly believe Sader87 is a devoted HC alum who wants to promote his alma mater. He couldn't have done a worse job as an HC ambassador on this board.

Colgate Raider Redux, why the hostility to Sader87?

He loves his school no differently than the rest of us.[/QUOTE]

A bit differently. An avid fan . Absolutely. He uses his negative view of Cross in the PL to salve his angst at Crusaders' lack of success. He revels in the glories of ages gone by and blames the PL for all football's ills.

PAllen

May 19th, 2018, 12:36 PM

[/B]Colgate Raider Redux, why the hostility to Sader87?

He loves his school no differently than the rest of us.

A bit differently. An avid fan . Absolutely. He uses his negative view of Cross in the PL to salve his angst at Crusaders' lack of success. He revels in the glories of ages gone by and blames the PL for all football's ills.[/QUOTE]

Maybe it's a jesuit thing.

DFW HOYA

May 19th, 2018, 04:44 PM

For those that recall it, Georgetown LB Ty Williams was paralyzed in the 2015 opener on the second play of the game vs. St. Francis. He earned his degree today, and stood up to receive it.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2776902-ty-williams-walks-across-georgetown-graduation-stage-suffered-2015-spine-injury

RichH2

May 19th, 2018, 05:47 PM

Go...gate

May 21st, 2018, 01:07 AM

Fordham

May 21st, 2018, 08:26 AM

The Boogie Down

May 22nd, 2018, 09:31 AM

If I were from Minnesota I’d hafta add an “Oh-Jees” and a few “Ooftas” to some of these Holy Cross comments. But I’m a New Yorker so instead I’ll just throw in an “Oy-Vey” and paraphrase from someone else who once called the Big Apple home… “Rumors of HC’s death have been greatly exaggerated.” Although you wouldn’t know it on this thread, The Cross is doing just fine academically, no matter how many parochial students in Texas apply or not. Athletically things have taken a step back of late but for a school “not in the entertainment” business they have some nice facilities that are only getting nicer. As mentioned above, their APR honors are off the charts and, oh yeah, they also have an upside that even schools in far better athletic conferences can’t match. In fact, I’d go as far to say that when the Big East does expand, HC will get a look or two.

Sooo, ahem-ahem, to continue…

Thanks for the thorough reply. While it doesn't carry the momentum of the Study or lights at Goodman, it's certainly a good off-season topic.

The argument that the Big East should look to Holy Cross someday follows much the same logical fallacy if I was to argue that CAA football should look to Georgetown. It follows this thinking:

1. Teams in the CAA are very successful.
2. Georgetown is not very successful outside the CAA.
3. The CAA does not have a team in Washington DC.
4. Adding a team from the Washington area would be good for the CAA. Ergo...
5. Georgetown would be very successful in the CAA.

Or, for this argument...

1. Teams in the Big East are very successful.
2. Holy Cross is not very successful outside the Big East
3. The Big East does not have a team in the Boston area....

Some thoughts:

1. The Boston "market" is an illusion of sorts. Put aside the fact that Boston is not a college basketball town, HC is 47 miles to the west and Providence is 50 miles to the southwest. Neither deliver the market (nor would BU, for that matter). The Big East has been out of the Boston market for over a decade, out of the Pittsburgh and Hartford markets for five years, and skipped past the Baltimore market entirely--the Baltimore media sports coverage does not tread south of College Park. The Big East was built of TV markets in the days before omni-channel cable and direct-to-customer communications. It no longer drives decisions the way it used to.

2. "Aside from UConn, how many other East coast options are left?" Well, the A-10 has always been a launching pad for BE schools--in fact, six different BE schools over the years (Villanova, Pitt, Virginia Tech, Rutgers, Xavier, Butler) played in the EIBL/E-8/A-10. Any number of A-10 schools harbor hopes of getting the next call (in no particular order, Dayton, Davidson, Richmond, VCU, St. Louis, and UMass) but as long as the Crusaders play downstream in the PL, they're not going to be on that food chain.

3. Yes, Georgetown averaged 2,657 during its inaugural BE season....in an aging 3600 seat gym with bleachers on the stage to get it to 4,000. The league has grown tremendously since then, and I don't see any expansion candidate averaging less than 6,000 a game getting anyone's attention. For HC, that would mean moving most or all games to the DCU, and with all that has been spent on the Hart Center, it's not in the cards.

4. "The current TV contract already has a $100M provision in place for a two team expansion." Yes it does and that's a nice card to play. But Fox Sports will make that call.

5. "I'd be willing to bet that if by 2026 Villanova were to elevate their football program they'd be too busy negotiating w/the ACC to bother with anything Fox would be throwing out to the BE." Much like Boston in college basketball, Philadelphia is not a college football town. Villanova was within a week of a decision to move back to I-A when Pitt pulled the rug underneath their plans and announced the move to the ACC. It's hard to see Villanova or Temple being impactful enough to raise the ACC's interest.

Hmmm, teams in the ACC are very successful, and well, you know...xlolx

Okay, well, first of all, I can’t at all go along w/the "Georgetown to the CAA" analogy b/c CAA football isn’t being funded by a half a billion (that’s billion with a "b”) dollar TV contract. Does CAA football get paid anything at all to be on TV? Or do they do the paying like some infomercial? Not trying to be funny but when their tape delayed games do air in NY they often seem to be on during infomercial hours. That’s not a knock on the CAA, which I’ve always respected, or the FCS as a whole, which I’ve always loved, but a reality that there isn’t much money in FCS football and not much in casual fan interest either. Of course this is not the case with one of college hoops’ top power conferences (even if that conference is basically Villanova plus everyone else). So, yeah, kinda hard to compare a power conference with one playing in a secondary level of football.

Now,,, to be more harsh… Unfortunatley, when it comes to Georgetown, we’re not even talking about a secondary level of football. This is because Georgetown isn’t running a true FCS program. Somehow the facilities are worse now than they were when the Dayton Rule pushed the Hoyas out of the D-III ranks. The coaching staff is bigger and I suspect better now but has the talent improved all that much? Everything else being equal, would Georgetown have won any D-III championships had they stayed in D-III for all these years? To take it a step further, had there been no Dayton Rule, would any Georgetown team (aside from the 2011 one) have even qualified into the D-III playoffs since 1993? Again, harsh, and I sincerely was rooting for Georgetown back in 2011, but aside from then, have they ever been anything but a D-III program? A mediocre D-III program at that. So why would the DC sports media, care about a D-III type program changing conferences? Do even Hoya students/alums care about Hoya football? Would they care about a conference change? Do they even know what the CAA is?

OTOH, say whatcha want about Holy Cross hoops, but their alumni organizations and student body would care greatly about a Big East jump. To a lesser but still visible extent, I’m guessing the Boston sports media would care as well. Also, as bad as Holy Cross hoops has been lately, they’ve never been D-III levels of bad. In fact, even after they had stopped being a national power, coaches like Jack Donohue, George Blaney and, more recently, Ralph Willard have always kept HC respectable. Far more winning records than losing ones even if, as we’ve both noted, they haven’t actually won a "legit" NCAA game since 1953.

So, no. I can’t at all go along with the Georgetown analogy. As for the rest, yes, I agree that Boston (which until recently had always been a bad NBA town) ain't a good college hoops market. I also agree that (thanks to streaming, power conference networks, and an over-saturation in networks as a whole) television markets themselves ain't what they used to be. Still, even today, market sizes count and Boston is a Top-10 one so the potential for high viewership, or at the very least, program awareness is there. The same is not true for markets like Richmond which don’t even crack the Top-50. Oh, and even today, individual markets themselves and regionalism still count for something. As you've stated, the Big East Tournament is back to selling out all their games but the ACC could not do the same during their two year run here. Even with so many Dukies coming from suburban New York, even with so many alums back in these parts working, even with the ability for anyone to stream every single Duke game (or UNC, or Virginia, or ‘Cuse, or whomever else’s ACC games) all season long, there was still no buzz here when the ACC Tournament came to town. Proof that NYC is still a Big East town. I’m guessing the same is true for Boston and the addition of Holy Cross (again, with help from Providence alums living in Boston) helps bring that market back. That’s not to say it’ll be the same as it was when BC was there, not at all, but it’s better than nothing. Better than (as is the case w/Pittsburgh) never getting a market back.

As for the possible expansion candidates you’ve mentioned, yes, Dayton and Saint Louis are good picks. I’ve already said as much. Loyola too if Sister Jean can pull another Final Four run. Prob is, only one of those Midwestern schools would be taken in a future Big East expansion. The other spot would presumably be reserved for an Eastern school. In no particular order you had earlier mentioned Davidson, Richmond, VCU and UMass. VCU is a state school. One with far less pull than UVa or Va Tech at that. Not at all good on academics either, plus no Shaka Smart, so I’d count them out. UMass is kinda like UConn-Light so I doubt the Big East would take a chance with another FBS school. That leaves Richmond and Davidson. Both solid picks but neither (one plays in a market smaller than Fresno, the other is only the 6th or 7th best draw in its own state) is a slam dunk. Not saying HC is a slam dunk but if they could at least match their Willard days, they’re fairly comparable to other future expansion candidates coming from the East.

Guess we'll see when that time does come.xthumbsupx

crusader11

May 22nd, 2018, 12:17 PM

At this point I'd probably go with Georgetown and Holy Cross. Georgetown for obvious reasons and Holy Cross because their entire athletic department is a dumpster fire. They suck at everything. Lafayette is probably a close 3rd.

Can give you $95 million reasons why HC will, at the very least, be no worse than middle of the pack in the PL going forward.

Go Lehigh TU Owl

May 22nd, 2018, 01:00 PM

Can give you $95 million reasons why HC will, at the very least, be no worse than middle of the pack in the PL going forward.

Facilities mean very little compared to administrative support when it comes to the overall health of the a particular athletic department. Lafayette is obviously a great example of that in the PL.

HC put money into Hart, redid some of the ancillary facilities for hoops and hired a new coach yet the results have not improved.

Time will tell...

DFW HOYA

May 22nd, 2018, 05:48 PM

Two points.

1. No team, not even Holy Cross, is going to join a major conference straight from the Patriot League. The Big 10 doesn't expand from the Mid-American, the ACC doesn't take applications from the Sun belt and the Big East is not going to jump past the A-10 and even the MAAC for a PL school. That's the food chain of college realignment. If HC was serious about moving up, and it's not, it would be seeking to move up to leagues where they get the visibility and build the attendance base to be considered a viable contender for larger conferences. The Crusaders averaged less than 1,800 a game in the 30th ranked conference in attendance.

Now,,, to be more harsh… Unfortunatley, when it comes to Georgetown, we’re not even talking about a secondary level of football. This is because Georgetown isn’t running a true FCS program. Somehow the facilities are worse now than they were when the Dayton Rule pushed the Hoyas out of the D-III ranks. The coaching staff is bigger and I suspect better now but has the talent improved all that much? Everything else being equal, would Georgetown have won any D-III championships had they stayed in D-III for all these years? To take it a step further, had there been no Dayton Rule, would any Georgetown team (aside from the 2011 one) have even qualified into the D-III playoffs since 1993? Again, harsh, and I sincerely was rooting for Georgetown back in 2011, but aside from then, have they ever been anything but a D-III program? A mediocre D-III program at that. So why would the DC sports media, care about a D-III type program changing conferences? Do even Hoya students/alums care about Hoya football? Would they care about a conference change? Do they even know what the CAA is?

2. You may not understand the Dayton rule or even the D-III football structure, but Georgetown 2018 is not a D-III program, either by budget, by coaching staff, or recruiting.

In the 1970's, Georgetown had a part time head coach, started its season in week 4 because practice didn't begin until students returned to school, did not recruit players, and had a budget in the low $100,000s. Would it have won the D-III championship? It never made the playoffs, in large part to an eight game schedule, a up and down record depending on who tried out, and in larger part because of the D-III playoff structure. 25 of the 32 tourney bids are conference autobids. As an independent, Georgetown had no realistic chance. In 1978 the Hoyas were 7-1 and lost their only game that year by one point, 33-32 to St. John's, and was not going to be selected.

Georgetown's budget is over 10x what it was as D-III program. It has ten full time coaches, year-round recruiting, and plays representative schools. It won seven or more games for four consecutive seasons from 1996 through 1999 and even beat Holy Cross in back to back seasons, which was its pitch to join the PL.

Yes, it isn't a very good I-AA team right now. Recruiting suffers mightily without scholarships, the AI is the highest in the PL, financial aid doesn't cut it, and it cannot recruit depth. Things aren't great right now but it does you no good with such foolish comparisons. I don't see you calling Cornell or Howard a D-III program when these schools are right alongside Georgetown in cumulative records since 2001.

Enough for now. For more on the subject, see the attached column. (In the meantime, has anyone heard a scoreboard update on Lafayette and New Hampshire?)

http://www.hoyafootball.com/features/football_2017.htm

RichH2

May 22nd, 2018, 06:43 PM

Two points.

1. No team, not even Holy Cross, is going to join a major conference straight from the Patriot League. The Big 10 doesn't expand from the Mid-American, the ACC doesn't take applications from the Sun belt and the Big East is not going to jump past the A-10 and even the MAAC for a PL school. That's the food chain of college realignment. If HC was serious about moving up, and it's not, it would be seeking to move up to leagues where they get the visibility and build the attendance base to be considered a viable contender for larger conferences. The Crusaders averaged less than 1,800 a game in the 30th ranked conference in attendance.

2. You may not understand the Dayton rule or even the D-III football structure, but Georgetown 2018 is not a D-III program, either by budget, by coaching staff, or recruiting.

In the 1980's, Georgetown had a part time head coach, started its season in week 4 because practice didn't begin until students returned to school, did not recruit players, and had a budget in the low $100,000s. Would it have won the D-III championship? It never made the playoffs, in large part to an eight game schedule, a up and down record depending on who tried out, and in larger part because of the D-III playoff structure. 25 of the 32 tourney bids are conference autobids. As an independent, Georgetown had no realistic chance. In 1978 the Hoyas were 7-1 and lost their only game that year by one point, 33-32 to St. John's, and was not going to be selected.

Georgetown's budget is over 10x what it was as D-III program. It has ten full time coaches, year-round recruiting, and plays representative schools. It won seven or more games for four consecutive seasons from 1996 through 1999 and even beat Holy Cross in back to back seasons, which was its pitch to join the PL.

Yes, it isn't a very good I-AA team right now. Recruiting suffers mightily without scholarships, the AI is the highest in the PL, financial aid doesn't cut it, and it cannot recruit depth. Things aren't great right now but it does you no good with such foolish comparisons. I don't see you calling Cornell or Howard a D-III program when these schools are right alongside Georgetown in cumulative records since 2001.

Enough for now. For more on the subject, see the attached column. (In the meantime, has anyone heard a scoreboard update on Lafayette and New Hampshire?)

http://www.hoyafootball.com/features/football_2017.htm
Last I heard Lafayette-UNH game was in a TV timeout in the 3rd period. Hopefully the action will resume to carry us thru the summer. :)

Fordham

May 23rd, 2018, 08:57 AM

2. You may not understand the Dayton rule or even the D-III football structure, but Georgetown 2018 is not a D-III program, either by budget, by coaching staff, or recruiting.

In the 1970's, Georgetown had a part time head coach, started its season in week 4 because practice didn't begin until students returned to school, did not recruit players, and had a budget in the low $100,000s. Would it have won the D-III championship? It never made the playoffs, in large part to an eight game schedule, a up and down record depending on who tried out, and in larger part because of the D-III playoff structure. 25 of the 32 tourney bids are conference autobids. As an independent, Georgetown had no realistic chance. In 1978 the Hoyas were 7-1 and lost their only game that year by one point, 33-32 to St. John's, and was not going to be selected.

Georgetown's budget is over 10x what it was as D-III program. It has ten full time coaches, year-round recruiting, and plays representative schools. It won seven or more games for four consecutive seasons from 1996 through 1999 and even beat Holy Cross in back to back seasons, which was its pitch to join the PL.

Yes, it isn't a very good I-AA team right now. Recruiting suffers mightily without scholarships, the AI is the highest in the PL, financial aid doesn't cut it, and it cannot recruit depth. Things aren't great right now but it does you no good with such foolish comparisons. I don't see you calling Cornell or Howard a D-III program when these schools are right alongside Georgetown in cumulative records since 2001.

Enough for now. For more on the subject, see the attached column. (In the meantime, has anyone heard a scoreboard update on Lafayette and New Hampshire?)

http://www.hoyafootball.com/features/football_2017.htm

I read Boogie's post as saying a) your facilities are somehow worse than when you were DIII and b) today's Gtown team would not win a DIII championship and likely not even make the DIII playoffs, whether or not you had shown improvement back in the 90's or whenever. I think you inferred from his post that he was saying the budget must have shrunk but I don't read it like that. I don't know enough about a) to know what your facilities were like prior to the jump but knowing the strength of some of the DIII schools that make the playoffs I'm afraid b) may be correct.

Facilities mean very little compared to administrative support when it comes to the overall health of the a particular athletic department. Lafayette is obviously a great example of that in the PL.
HC put money into Hart, redid some of the ancillary facilities for hoops and hired a new coach yet the results have not improved.

Time will tell...

Pretty rough to include a knock the coach for not improving results when he was just hired over the off season and has yet to coach a game, no? (… Philly fans … :D)

I'm on the side of those saying HC is at the start of a turn around. The facilities improvements are coming along with coaching changes and I think that will breathe new life into the program. It gives the new staff something to sell while they are offering full scholarships to an incredible institution. It sounds to me as though the alums have become more active and vocal and that, to me, has been the key to every bit of success we've had at Fordham. So, if true, I think it bodes well.

I agree that "time will tell …" but I think it's been a very good off season for HC.

Go Lehigh TU Owl

May 23rd, 2018, 09:15 AM

I read Boogie's post as saying a) your facilities are somehow worse than when you were DIII and b) today's Gtown team would not win a DIII championship and likely not even make the DIII playoffs, whether or not you had shown improvement back in the 90's or whenever. I think you inferred from his post that he was saying the budget must have shrunk but I don't read it like that. I don't know enough about a) to know what your facilities were like prior to the jump but knowing the strength of some of the DIII schools that make the playoffs I'm afraid b) may be correct.

[COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana]

Pretty rough to include a knock the coach for not improving results when he was just hired over the off season and has yet to coach a game, no? (… Philly fans … :D)

I'm on the side of those saying HC is at the start of a turn around. The facilities improvements are coming along with coaching changes and I think that will breathe new life into the program. It gives the new staff something to sell while they are offering full scholarships to an incredible institution. It sounds to me as though the alums have become more active and vocal and that, to me, has been the key to every bit of success we've had at Fordham. So, if true, I think it bodes well.

I agree that "time will tell …" but I think it's been a very good off season for HC.

But why does Holy Cross suck at every sport? There's a serious culture issue on Mount Saint James imo that is really limiting their success in intercollegiate athletics. The same issue seems to exist at Lafayette. There's an obvious reason why both of these schools have terribly performing athletic programs.

For example, why is Fordham basketball horrific year after year, decade after decade? The administration simply refuses to make the needed steps to change direction. It took Temple getting kicked out of the Big East to open eyes on North Broad Street.

I just don't have much faith in these ships changing course without major changes in philosophy.

RichH2

May 23rd, 2018, 09:56 AM

But why does Holy Cross suck at every sport? There's a serious culture issue on Mount Saint James imo that is really limiting their success in intercollegiate athletics. The same issue seems to exist at Lafayette. There's an obvious reason why both of these schools have terribly performing athletic programs.

For example, why is Fordham basketball horrific year after year, decade after decade? The administration simply refuses to make the needed steps to change direction. It took Temple getting kicked out of the Big East to open eyes on North Broad Street.

I just don't have much faith in these ships changing course without major changes in philosophy.

I am not quite as sanguine as you as to Cross and Pards. Agree that the AD dumpster fires at each resulted from Administration antipathy to athletics due in my opinion from academia's belief that dollars spent on sports were depriving them of their money.
Recent developements do indicate that both are attempting to put out the fires. Both have invested heavily in upgrading their atletic facilities and hired new coaches. As with scholarships, neither action is a magic wand to quickly morph teams into winners. Key to me is whether these schools can retain administration support for long enough to allow the developement of winning programs. Time will tell but we should recognize that both schools are taking the initial steps towards better athletic programs.

Go Lehigh TU Owl

May 23rd, 2018, 10:22 AM

I am not quite as sanguine as you as to Cross and Pards. Agree that the AD dumpster fires at each resulted from Administration antipathy to athletics due in my opinion from academia's belief that dollars spent on sports were depriving them of their money.
Recent developements do indicate that both are attempting to put out the fires. Both have invested heavily in upgrading their atletic facilities and hired new coaches. As with scholarships, neither action is a magic wand to quickly morph teams into winners. Key to me is whether these schools can retain administration support for long enough to allow the developement of winning programs. Time will tell but we should recognize that both schools are taking the initial steps towards better athletic programs.

Rich,

Wouldn't you think Holy Cross and Lafayette would have one, 1, UNO sport that's consistently good? I don't think there's a program at either school that has been consistently successful in 15-20 years. There's a fundamental reason for that imo. Until either school steps up their game in SOMETHING there's literally no reason to believe things will change imo.

I'm not trying to hate but these are honestly two of the least successful D1 athletic programs in the country.

RichH2

May 23rd, 2018, 10:30 AM

Rich,

Wouldn't you think Holy Cross and Lafayette would have one, 1, UNO sport that's consistently good? I don't think there's a program at either school that has been consistently successful in 15-20 years. There's a fundamental reason for that imo. Until either school steps up their game in SOMETHING there's literally no reason to believe things will change imo.

I am not disputing history owl. Nor am I at all sure that either administration will support athletic programs long enough for athletics to improve. But, since they have finally made some positive steps towards improvement, I will see what happens over the next few years.

The Boogie Down

May 23rd, 2018, 10:31 AM

Two points.

1. No team, not even Holy Cross, is going to join a major conference straight from the Patriot League.
Fordham joined the Atlantic 10 straight from the Patriot League before the 1996 season. That A-10 was in the middle of a run that had seen Temple get to the Elite 8 in 1991, Temple get to the Elite 8 in 1993 and UMass get to the Elite 8 in 1995. UMass would again get to the Elite 8 in 1996 (Final Four as well), URI would get to the Elite 8 in 1998 while Temple would get back to the Elite 8 in 1999 and yet again in 2001.

I’m not sure if that 11 year run (all happening before the St. Joe's magical season) qualifies as the work of a major conference. I am sure that aside from Villanova, the only Elite 8 appearance made by a "New Big East" team was Xavier in 2017. That’s it. I am 100% sure about that just as I’m 100% sure that I never said Holy Cross would join the Big East. Instead I said that the Big East will expand, and when it does, Holy Cross will get a solid looksy.

2. You may not understand the Dayton rule or even the D-III football structure, but Georgetown 2018 is not a D-III program, either by budget, by coaching staff, or recruiting.
Well then, how about by talent and actual wins? How have the Hoyas done on those fronts over the past 25 years? I remember when Fordham, as a D-III program in 1988, defeated Davidson. I remember when Hofstra, as a D-III program in 1990, defeated Bucknell. Were the 2017 Hoyas, the team that lost to Marist (<-also a D-III in disguise), better than the ’88 Rams? Eh, mmmaybe they were… Were they better than the ’90 Dutchmen? Absolutely not! And I’m not even talking about the Mount Unions of the D-III world.

Since joining the PL in 2001, Georgetown is 18-85 vs. the Patriot League. That’s 20 games behind Bucknell over the same period of time. Not only is that also a far worse conference win percentage than teams you’ve mentioned, like Howard and Cornell, but, over the same period of time, it’s even a worse conference win percentage than Columbia! Oh, and not counting 2011, when the Hoyas almost shocked the world, Georgetown is 14-83 vs. the PL. I’m sorry but no legit FCS goes 14-83 vs. the Patriot League. No legit D-II goes 14-83 vs. the PL. Mount Union and the top tier D-III’s wouldn’t go 14-83 vs. the PL either. Even good PFL teams (like San Diego and Jacksonville but unlike Marist) wouldn’t go 14-83 vs. the PL. So, yeah, the budgets, coaching staff, recruiting are all up at Georgetown. Talent and actual wins? Unfortunately, not so much

http://www.hoyafootball.com/features/football_2017.htm
3. Thanks for the link. Minus that "Fordham to the Big East" knock, I like what you hafta say but even those cumulative numbers are disingenuous to me since so many Georgetown wins have come over the likes of Marist, Davidson and other teams that Howard and Cornell usually do not schedule. That’s why I went by conference records instead. Overall though, great research and presentation. I wish you guys luck and do hope for future progression. But never against Fordham!

Fordham

May 23rd, 2018, 03:34 PM

But why does Holy Cross suck at every sport? There's a serious culture issue on Mount Saint James imo that is really limiting their success in intercollegiate athletics. The same issue seems to exist at Lafayette. There's an obvious reason why both of these schools have terribly performing athletic programs.

For example, why is Fordham basketball horrific year after year, decade after decade? The administration simply refuses to make the needed steps to change direction. It took Temple getting kicked out of the Big East to open eyes on North Broad Street.

I just don't have much faith in these ships changing course without major changes in philosophy.

fair enough. I agree with you overall in terms of university commitment and didn't realize their performance was that dismal across the board, I really only know of football for HC. When I see a more active alum group an underperforming coach finally being put out to pasture and $$ dedicated to facilities it naturally leads me to believe success will follow. We'll see. The potential for HC is really big if they want to make it happen. To your point, though, the jury is out on the 'want to'.

Also, the blind squirrel that is Fordham hoops may finally find it's nut next year with a lot returning and the best recruiting class in a while. We may just move up a notch from sucking. #progress

RichH2

May 24th, 2018, 08:46 AM

Got it. Thought you were referencing football but I see now it was an all-sport comment. xthumbsupx

I find it interesting that the 2 schools with the most pronounced imbalance between academics and athletics have such differing results from their efforts. Holy Cross has gotten solid achievement from its policies. Lafayette with perhaps even more draconian policies creating an AD with no winning teams has not. Thats not to say that Lafayette academics are bad but their metrics have not improved with their not so benign neglect of athletics.

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 6th, 2018, 08:23 AM

Just had a chance to meet Colgate football coach Dan Hunt (in blue FJ 1/4 zip). He's at my club playing with 2 guys from his staff (??) and head golf coach Keith Tyburski. Hunt came across as extremely personable! I said I'm looking forward to the Lehigh game in November. He said he was as well....

https://scontent.fagc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/34789234_1970849956280759_4302325455446343680_n.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=a4b781ab65800b358af2df98458aa725&oe=5BB04E81

https://scontent.fagc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/34726105_1970906769608411_1402989910922625024_n.jp g?_nc_cat=0&oh=7378acff8df6f21988a7fdc5c24c4f5f&oe=5B813886

RichH2

June 6th, 2018, 09:15 AM

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 6th, 2018, 09:35 AM

Street and Smith PL predictions are out FWIW :)
1. Colgate
2. Lehigh
3. Fordham
4. Bucknell
5. Holy Cross
6. Lafayette
7. Georgetown
Writer noted that 3-6 could be shuffled any which way but that top 2 are set. Gate favored but Lehigh likely with best QB and RB could retain title with some defense.

I still think Fordham is the wildcard. They have a bunch of talent of their roster. If the new coach is more prepared than Breiner the Rams could sneak in and steal the title.

Fordham

June 6th, 2018, 11:29 AM

I still think Fordham is the wildcard. They have a bunch of talent of their roster. If the new coach is more prepared than Breiner the Rams could sneak in and steal the title.
it really could go either way. I have had a few interactions so far to know that I really, really like this staff a lot. Just not sure how quickly the new system will take. I know he's appalled by our overall lack of size and strength, particularly in the trenches. While it was good to hear him call out what explains the biggest problem we've had for years, I'm not sure how quickly he'll be able to turn things around there. Plus, we start off with a brutal run of Charlotte (FBS), Richmond & Stony Brook to start the season. That will either make us better for the PL run or else break us.

DFW HOYA

June 6th, 2018, 11:54 AM

Writer noted that 3-6 could be shuffled any which way but that top 2 are set. Gate favored but Lehigh likely with best QB and RB could retain title with some defense.

It would have been nice if the writer had said "3 through 7".

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 6th, 2018, 02:40 PM

it really could go either way. I have had a few interactions so far to know that I really, really like this staff a lot. Just not sure how quickly the new system will take. I know he's appalled by our overall lack of size and strength, particularly in the trenches. While it was good to hear him call out what explains the biggest problem we've had for years, I'm not sure how quickly he'll be able to turn things around there. Plus, we start off with a brutal run of Charlotte (FBS), Richmond & Stony Brook to start the season. That will either make us better for the PL run or else break us.

I'm not sure if the start of the schedule is as tough as you think. Charlotte is horrific. This will be worst FBS opponent a PL school has faced since Buffalo in the early 2000's. A legit case could be made that the 49ers are the worst FBS program (from the administration on down) in the country. I'm not sure if they would be a Top 30-40 FCS team right now.

Lauletta is gone so the Spiders offense won't be nearly as potent. SBU is likely the best team of the 3. Their physical style will be a problem.

@ Army, @ CCSU then EWU last year was a tougher opening 3 games.

Fordham

June 7th, 2018, 08:56 AM

I'm not sure if the start of the schedule is as tough as you think. Charlotte is horrific. This will be worst FBS opponent a PL school has faced since Buffalo in the early 2000's. A legit case could be made that the 49ers are the worst FBS program (from the administration on down) in the country. I'm not sure if they would be a Top 30-40 FCS team right now.

Lauletta is gone so the Spiders offense won't be nearly as potent. SBU is likely the best team of the 3. Their physical style will be a problem.

@ Army, @ CCSU then EWU last year was a tougher opening 3 games.

Thanks. Didn't know that about Charlotte. It would be fantastic for us to start things off with an FBS win so I hope you're right. I still put Richmond down in the heavily favored category as they are very much in re-load mode when facing a PL squad. It may not be as tough as last year's start but it's much more difficult than a patsy DII or some other easier "W" to start with, particularly for a team implementing new systems on both sides of the ball.

Gangtackle11

June 7th, 2018, 09:06 AM

I'm not sure if the start of the schedule is as tough as you think. Charlotte is horrific. This will be worst FBS opponent a PL school has faced since Buffalo in the early 2000's. A legit case could be made that the 49ers are the worst FBS program (from the administration on down) in the country. I'm not sure if they would be a Top 30-40 FCS team right now.

Lauletta is gone so the Spiders offense won't be nearly as potent. SBU is likely the best team of the 3. Their physical style will be a problem.

@ Army, @ CCSU then EWU last year was a tougher opening 3 games.

Richmond may not be as potent, but the drop off overall for the team is greatly exaggerated. QB Kevin Johnson should take over. He’s no KL, but he did win a playoff game when KL was out. Their defense is very good & underrated.

Go...gate

June 7th, 2018, 03:10 PM

RichH2

June 8th, 2018, 09:36 AM

Fordham

June 8th, 2018, 10:07 AM

Early recruiting wrapped up now into camp season for June and July. Some programs have altered strategy to increase junior year offers substantially.
Current published offers:
Holy Cross. 128
Fordham. 77
Colgate. 63
Lehigh. 45
Hoyas. 36
Bucknell. 23
Lafayette. 18

Interesting. Where did you get that info from?

I've been wondering how the combination of camps/rankings and the early signing period are going to play out across college football. The idea that such a high percentage of players will be locked up before they've played one down as a junior, let alone as a senior, is stunning to me and will create more late-bloomers who will fall through the cracks. I'm not sure how it'll effect the PL but I really do think that savvy FBS coaches are going to be able to feast off of those late bloomers and kids who don't attend camps and vault over a bunch of P5 programs like Boise St did a while back (not saying that's reason Boise St crashed the party but more so pointing out their 'out of nowhere' type of success).

Would love to know why Lafayette & Bucknell have taken such wildly different strategies than HC and Fordham though, assuming the data is correct.

RichH2

June 8th, 2018, 11:34 AM

The info is from 247 and various team boards. These are offers made mostly during and after junior year seasons. There are a few that go back to the player's soph. year. A bit of a lull now in the NCAA quiet period. June and July players and coaches will make the rounds of various team camps. Too soon to conclude much from the increased junior offers, particularly by Lehigh, Fordham and Colgate. Camps will no doubt add more offers going forward.

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 8th, 2018, 09:26 PM

Great course! Have a lot of good memories playing there back in the day.

Not sure the last time you played it but there's been quite a few changes over the last 10 years. With the mass tree removal it's become a bit of a mini-Oakmont (legitimately). Our Superintendent/GM worked there in the early to mid 2000's. The bunker renovations really added serious bite given the steep faces on them. Some of the greensides put you 7-8 feet below the putting surface.

I still love Seven Oaks. I'll be up there 3-4 times before the year is over! I have Taconic at Williams College coming up on the 21st then playing some of Ohio's best (Scioto, The Virtues Club(#1 public) and Cincinnati Country Club) in Mid-July.

I know one of the Holy Cross golfer real well too. I get some good nuggets on different schools.

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 8th, 2018, 09:35 PM

Richmond may not be as potent, but the drop off overall for the team is greatly exaggerated. QB Kevin Johnson should take over. He’s no KL, but he did win a playoff game when KL was out. Their defense is very good & underrated.

Richmond will be a handful no question. But I feel like they're a "good" CAA team that PL schools match up well with. They usually aren't going to out athlete you imo....

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 8th, 2018, 09:48 PM

Thanks. Didn't know that about Charlotte. It would be fantastic for us to start things off with an FBS win so I hope you're right. I still put Richmond down in the heavily favored category as they are very much in re-load mode when facing a PL squad. It may not be as tough as last year's start but it's much more difficult than a patsy DII or some other easier "W" to start with, particularly for a team implementing new systems on both sides of the ball.

Charlotte's last 3 years

'15 2-10
'16 4-8
'17 1-11

There was some serous mutiny within the athletic department last year that might have reached the state level due to the overall ineptness. The basketball and football program have been a complete dumpster fire. Hoops has a history of some high level success but they got left behind many of their former peers from the Metro, original CUSA and then A10. Football was completely rushed which has resulted in the current mess.

Fordham needs to go down there knowing they can win. If the new staff has the Ram's swagger back this should be a 60 minute game and perhaps a win. Fordham can be a 7-4 type team and still beat Charlotte.

PAllen

June 9th, 2018, 05:37 AM

RichH2

June 9th, 2018, 09:00 AM

Serious questions: How do you offer 128 kids knowing you'll only take 20 at the most? At what point does the recruit look at that and realize that you're just shotgunning everyone and not take you seriously?
Gilmore followed the same strategy albeit to a lesser extent. I dont know if it is more effective in producing the best possible recruit class. My question is how does the staff keep on top of the offers in his area. A large part of recruiting is building relationships with the prospects . That PL is D1 is a selling point initially in high school. For the players we want it is not a major factor as they will get multiple D1 offers. I am sure Chesney is far from done making offers.
Is Garrett's approach of giving only a few targetted junior year offers better? I dont know. Certainly much easier to build personal relationships with kids.

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 9th, 2018, 11:37 AM

Serious questions: How do you offer 128 kids knowing you'll only take 20 at the most? At what point does the recruit look at that and realize that you're just shotgunning everyone and not take you seriously?

The kids are also targeting their desired school(s) which should limit the offers to some extent as well.

It makes sense Fordham and Holy Cross, two "niche" Catholic schools, have to extend the most offers. Georgetown, Notre Dame and Boston College appeal to a wider audience imo.

carney2

June 11th, 2018, 09:48 AM

LUHawker

June 11th, 2018, 10:05 AM

With an unreasonable 800+ posts to this thread already, maybe this topic has already been covered, but, in your opinion, who has the toughest schedule this year? Since League games even out, we only look at OOC opponents. Leaving out the traditionally weaker teams (CCU, St Francis, Bryant, Campbell, St Francis, and the like) here are each team's biggest OOC challenges:

BUCKNELL: W&M (H), Penn (A), Villanova (A), Monmouth (A)

COLGATE: UNH (A), Furman (A), W&M (A), Army (A)

FORDHAM: Charlotte (A), Richmond (A), Stony Brook (H)

GEORGETOWN: Columbia (H), Dartmouth (A), Brown (A)

HOLY CROSS: Boston College (A), Yale (H), UNH (A), Harvard (A), Dartmouth (H)

LEHIGH: Villanova (H), Navy (A), Penn (A), Princeton (A)

LAFAYETTE: Delawre (A), Monmouth (H), Army (A)

No matter who you choose, you must admit that the schedules are more difficult than only a few years ago.

Interesting question to pose. It is a tight clustering across the league (sans G'Town). Overall, Colgate has the toughest slate, in part due to all four being away games - but that is of their own making. Fordham is a not-too-distant second, while Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell and Holy Cross are essentially of the same difficulty.

Colgate and Fordham have the most interesting opponents, followed by Holy Cross. Bucknell and Lafayette also have OOC's worth following. Lehigh, of course, continues to play the same stale schedule of the past few years, with Navy at least providing some newness and intrigue (I might find it more interesting if Lehigh had a defense, but I expect a blow-out in Annapolis).

All you can say about G'Town is they are finally getting closer to being in the Ivy League and being able to talk about their collective post-season bans. G'Town, is, of course, not technically banned, but more like self-inflicted banishment.

Fordham

June 11th, 2018, 11:49 AM

Agree with Hawker although not 100% sure on us being 2nd after TU owl's ripping on Charlotte. The big take away after reading carney's post was how much we've stepped it up as a league across the board. Very impressive. Possibly stupid given our collective OOC results the past few years but impressive.

Georgetown also with a solid slate of Ivies v what they used to schedule, where there would always be a clunker in there. It may not be on par with the rest of the PL but it's an improvement over what they used to schedule imo (could be wrong on that if someone posts their OOC opponents but I don't care enough to do the research).

Go...gate

June 11th, 2018, 12:33 PM

Go...gate

June 11th, 2018, 12:35 PM

Agree with Hawker although not 100% sure on us being 2nd after his derision of Charlotte. The big take away after reading carney's post was how much we've stepped it up as a league across the board. Very impressive. Possibly stupid given our collective OOC results the past few years but impressive.

Georgetown also with a solid slate of Ivies v what they used to schedule, where there would always be a clunker in there. It may not be on par with the rest of the PL but it's an improvement over what they used to schedule imo (could be wrong on that if someone posts their OOC opponents but I don't care enough to do the research).

Happy to see this.

RichH2

June 11th, 2018, 12:36 PM

Agree with Fordham. Big takeaway is the quality of the OOCs compared to 5 years ago. Each team has an interesting mix. I would rate Colgate, Holy Cross ,Lehigh, Lafayette/Fordham, Bucknell and Hoyas.
My caveat is that not all of those named teams are actually good. Heck, I would rate St.Francis above some of them.

PAllen

June 11th, 2018, 01:25 PM

No more Pioneer or NEC schools.

They were omitted from the list. Still quite a few.

Go...gate

June 11th, 2018, 04:20 PM

They were omitted from the list. Still quite a few.

OK, thanks for the clarification.

RichH2

June 11th, 2018, 04:24 PM

Carney brings up a great topic on OOC. Really is nice to see the overall upgrade.
How will we do vs this year's OOC??

DFW HOYA

June 11th, 2018, 05:14 PM

Georgetown also with a solid slate of Ivies v what they used to schedule, where there would always be a clunker in there. It may not be on par with the rest of the PL but it's an improvement over what they used to schedule imo (could be wrong on that if someone posts their OOC opponents but I don't care enough to do the research).

Which of these looks like the better non-conference schedule?

A) Monmouth, Stony Brook, VMI, Cornell
B) Richmond, Penn, Yale, Howard
C) Princeton, Brown, Wagner, Davidson
D) Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth, Campbell

Also known as:

A) The Georgetown non-conference schedule 15 years ago
B) The Georgetown non-conference schedule 10 years ago
C) The Georgetown non-conference schedule 5 years ago
D) The Georgetown non-conference schedule in 2018

(All net of games with Marist.)

van

June 11th, 2018, 06:32 PM

Which of these looks like the better non-conference schedule?

A) Monmouth, Stony Brook, VMI, Cornell
B) Richmond, Penn, Yale, Howard
C) Princeton, Brown, Wagner, Davidson
D) Columbia, Brown, Dartmouth, Campbell

Also known as:

A) The Georgetown non-conference schedule 15 years ago
B) The Georgetown non-conference schedule 10 years ago
C) The Georgetown non-conference schedule 5 years ago
D) The Georgetown non-conference schedule in 2018

(All net of games with Marist.)

toss up between B and D

Go...gate

June 11th, 2018, 10:58 PM

A, B and D are all good, IMO.

carney2

June 12th, 2018, 08:00 AM

How will we do vs this year's OOC??

If the Patriot League can win 5 of the 26 games I listed (almost 20%), it would be an accomplishment. Which is to say that, despite the advent of football scholarships, these six programs (leaving Georgetown out for obvious reasons) have not made much progress.

DFW HOYA

June 12th, 2018, 08:08 AM

A, B and D are all good, IMO.

A (2003 season) 2-2, finished, 4-8
B (2008 season) 1-3, finished 2-8
C (2013 season) 1-3, finished 2-9
D (2018 season) could be 0-4 given the talent on the team.

Meanwhile, in a rare moment of coach-speak, Bronco Mendenhall said there are only 27 "ACC-caliber football players" on his Virginia team. I wouldn't presume to say how many PL-caliber players are on the 2018 Hoyas, but the offensive talent for 2018 is very thin, even after finishing last nationally in time of possession in 2017.

http://www.dailyprogress.com/cavalierinsider/virginia-football-coach-bronco-mendenhall-only-of-our-players-are/article_9b5350ce-6d04-11e8-b6ec-b7cde0f8af47.html

Lehigh'98

June 12th, 2018, 09:00 AM

If the Patriot League can win 5 of the 26 games I listed (almost 20%), it would be an accomplishment. Which is to say that, despite the advent of football scholarships, these six programs (leaving Georgetown out for obvious reasons) have not made much progress.

You could make the argument we have gone backwards.

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 12th, 2018, 09:13 AM

You could make the argument we have gone backwards.

Based on preseason/postseason rankings and OOC performances I would say the league has gone backwards.

RichH2

June 12th, 2018, 01:23 PM

No doubt that 98 and owl are correct. Comparing PL records in the late 90s to mid 2000s with today, there is no room for debate. The PL has not kept pace with the changing landscape of northeast FCS football. The niche we had in those halcyon days no longer exists to any significant degree. Now we face a much more active Ivies, an essentially full ride NEC and Monmouth, Albany and Stony Brook. Hindsight PL waited to long to implement schollies and even then hamstrung itself with nonsensical rules.

Go...gate

June 12th, 2018, 04:11 PM

You could make the argument we have gone backwards.

The majority of our the schools (and their financial aid offices) had the "equivalency" gig down pat. I know Colgate did. We rarely lost a kid for want of financial aid. That approach went all the way back to the days of Andy Kerr. Now, we are behind the curve with regard to scholarships. The roster limits are also ridiculous.

van

June 12th, 2018, 05:17 PM

agree that roster limits are silly, but is anyone actually getting up to the limit, not sure that Lehigh has reached the limit in any year so far?

DFW HOYA

June 12th, 2018, 05:51 PM

Now, we are behind the curve with regard to scholarships. The roster limits are also ridiculous.

Well, vote them both out. Who among the six is against it?

RichH2

June 12th, 2018, 06:48 PM

Roster limits are asinine but not a major factor in our poor performance. We waited too long to follow Fordham. Then we did it over a 3 yr period capping at 60.Initially there was no provision for WOs or need aid. After 3 yrs, PL relented and allowed 3 WOs with permissible need aid. Last August they removed the restriction on WOs all together. We are still capped at 60 schollies but we can have need aid up to the NCAA max of 63. However,we still have AI restrictions and severely limited red shirting.
As Go noted, we all had need recruiting down pat. Those techniques did not translate well to schollie recruiting . The first 2 classes with some stars but underperforming overall. I cant speak to all PL teams but Lehigh's current senior class also fits that mold. Some superstars and some solid PL players but overall this class has produced very little as yet particularly given its large size.
I look at the PL. OOC slate and cant see us breaking 40% for Ws.

Sader87

June 12th, 2018, 10:13 PM

Holy Cross never had the "need-based" recruiting without scholarships down...that and institutional indifference has led to 25 years or so of mostly bad football for HC in the Patriot League.

carney2

June 13th, 2018, 07:51 AM

I look at the PL. OOC slate and cant see us breaking 40% for Ws.

You are the eternal optimist, Rich. Winning 40% of the OOCs would yield 14 victories. My look at the schedules says that the number will be more like 7, or 20%. That's an average of 1 per team. Actually, I expect slightly more, but 7 is closer to reality than 14.

RichH2

June 13th, 2018, 08:30 AM

Admit to being an optimist Carney. :) Right now, rose colored glasses and all, close to 40% may be attainable. If the moons arent aligned in our favor :), 25% seems probable.

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 13th, 2018, 09:14 AM

You are the eternal optimist, Rich. Winning 40% of the OOCs would yield 14 victories. My look at the schedules says that the number will be more like 7, or 20%. That's an average of 1 per team. Actually, I expect slightly more, but 7 is closer to reality than 14.

In terms of odds

<5%
Lehigh at Navy
Lafayette at Army
Colgate at Army
Holy Cross at Boston College

<15%
Lafayette at Delaware
Bucknell at Villanova
Georgetown at Dartmouth
Holy Cross at UNH

<25%
Colgate at UNH
Georgetown at Brown
Colgate at Furman
Bucknell at Monmouth
Fordham vs Stony Brook
Bucknell at Penn
Fordham at Charlotte
Holy Cross vs Yale

<40%
Lehigh vs Villanova
Holy Cross at Harvard
Fordham at Richmond
Bucknell vs W&M
Lafayette vs Monmouth
Georgetown vs Columbia

50/50 (maybe)
Lehigh at Penn
Lehigh at Princeton
Colgate at W&M
Holy Cross vs Dartmouth

I don't think the PL team is the clear favorite in any of these games.

RichH2

June 13th, 2018, 10:33 AM

In terms of odds

<5%
Lehigh at Navy
Lafayette at Army
Colgate at Army
Holy Cross at Boston College

<15%
Lafayette at Delaware
Bucknell at Villanova
Georgetown at Dartmouth
Holy Cross at UNH

<25%
Colgate at UNH
Bucknell at W&M
Georgetown at Brown
Colgate at Furman
Bucknell at Monmouth
Fordham at Stony Brook
Bucknell at Penn
Fordham at Charlotte
Holy Cross vs Yale

<40%
Lehigh vs Villanova
Holy Cross at Harvard
Fordham at Richmond
Bucknell vs W&M
Lafayette vs Monmouth
Georgetown vs Columbia

50/50 (maybe)
Lehigh at Penn
Lehigh at Princeton
Colgate at W&M
Holy Cross vs Dartmouth

I don't think the PL team is the clear favorite in any of these games.

Cant argue those numbers. Fair. I was estimating our OOC chances based on all the games.

DFW HOYA

June 13th, 2018, 11:57 AM

What do these games have in common? 21 of the 27 above are listed as on the road. Some better scheduling is in order.

van

June 13th, 2018, 12:04 PM

In terms of odds

<5%
Lehigh at Navy
Lafayette at Army
Colgate at Army
Holy Cross at Boston College

<15%
Lafayette at Delaware
Bucknell at Villanova
Georgetown at Dartmouth
Holy Cross at UNH

<25%
Colgate at UNH
Bucknell at W&M
Georgetown at Brown
Colgate at Furman
Bucknell at Monmouth
Fordham vs Stony Brook
Bucknell at Penn
Fordham at Charlotte
Holy Cross vs Yale

<40%
Lehigh vs Villanova
Holy Cross at Harvard
Fordham at Richmond
Bucknell vs W&M
Lafayette vs Monmouth
Georgetown vs Columbia

50/50 (maybe)
Lehigh at Penn
Lehigh at Princeton
Colgate at W&M
Holy Cross vs Dartmouth

I don't think the PL team is the clear favorite in any of these games.

if those odds work out, could be about 7 wins there, and if the other 8 games split just 50/50, then maybe 11 OOC wins for the league, 11 out of 35 would yield 31%, so maybe halfway between optimist Rich and pessimist Carney?

RichH2

June 13th, 2018, 12:12 PM

van , ever the pragmatist. xthumbsupx

RichH2

June 13th, 2018, 01:43 PM

Staying pragmatic for a bit. The new NCAA redshirt rule allows a player up to 4 games in a season without losing any eligibility. Most of our opponents, other than Ivies, just got a tremendous boost to their rosters. Coaches can get their frosh game time at no cost.

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 13th, 2018, 01:47 PM

What do these games have in common? 21 of the 27 above are listed as on the road. Some better scheduling is in order.

According to some, Colgate prefers the ridiculous "tradition" of playing on the road. To statistically decrease your chances to win because of ego is absurd. It does themselves and the league no favors.

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 13th, 2018, 02:00 PM

if those odds work out, could be about 7 wins there, and if the other 8 games split just 50/50, then maybe 11 OOC wins for the league, 11 out of 35 would yield 31%, so maybe halfway between optimist Rich and pessimist Carney?

The PL needs at least 1 CAA scalp. Two would "progress" and 3+ would be awesome. I think Colgate vs W&M is the league's best shot. Lehigh always plays 'Nova tough but can't get over the hump. In some respects their due. Fordham has a realistic shot against Richmond IF the new coach is more Clawson/Moorhead than Masalla/Breiner. Maybe Bucknell can turn their game against a "meh" Tribe team into an ugly scrum and sneak one out?

Colgate over UNH
Colgate over Furman
Lafayette over Delaware

Those 3, outside of the FBS games, would be game changers for the league imo.

van

June 13th, 2018, 02:01 PM

According to some, Colgate prefers the ridiculous "tradition" of playing on the road. To statistically decrease your chances to win because of ego is absurd. It does themselves and the league no favors.

on the other hand, how long is the list of schools lining up to come to Hamilton? might need a magnifying glass to read that list

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 13th, 2018, 02:11 PM

on the other hand, how long is the list of schools lining up to come to Hamilton? might need a magnifying glass to read that list

They've had quality programs up there. Richmond and Furman played at Andy Kerr last year. They've gotten Albany and UNH in Hamilton recently as well. They don't ALWAYS play on the road. But on average it's basically a 3/1 road to home OOC ratio the last 6-8 years. That's a brutal road against a steady does of CAA and FB schools when you're already playing with PL restrictions. Hence their terrible W/L % in those games.

Fordham

June 13th, 2018, 02:33 PM

The PL needs at least 1 CAA scalp. Two would "progress" and 3+ would be awesome. I think Colgate vs W&M is the league's best shot. Lehigh always plays 'Nova tough but can't get over the hump. In some respects their due. Fordham has a realistic shot against Richmond IF the new coach is more Clawson/Moorhead than Masalla/Breiner. Maybe Bucknell can turn their game against a "meh" Tribe team into an ugly scrum and sneak one out?

Colgate over UNH
Colgate over Furman
Lafayette over Delaware

Those 3, outside of the FBS games, would be game changers for the league imo.

I think he's more Clawson/Moorhead than Masella/Breiner but it might be too early in the season for things to be clicking well enough in those Charlotte, Richmond, Stony Brook games. New system and I'm not that sure we have the right personnel to fit it just yet. That said, I really like what I see and hear from this staff so far in terms of Spring ball, S&C and recruiting.

Go...gate

June 13th, 2018, 03:41 PM

Holy Cross never had the "need-based" recruiting without scholarships down...that and institutional indifference has led to 25 years or so of mostly bad football for HC in the Patriot League.

I believe this is true - the quality of Crusader football absolutely cratered - but I also cannot help wondering if it also reflected an institutional decision to de-emphasize athletics.

Go...gate

June 13th, 2018, 03:43 PM

According to some, Colgate prefers the ridiculous "tradition" of playing on the road. To statistically decrease your chances to win because of ego is absurd. It does themselves and the league no favors.

Only in your short-sighted eyes. We seek better competition.

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 13th, 2018, 04:08 PM

Only in your short-sighted eyes. We seek better competition.

How is that short sighted? It's a statistical fact you decrease your chances to win by playing on the road.

I don't think you "seek better competition". I don't see Colgate's schedule much tougher than Lehigh's or Holy Cross's in recent years. The difference is Colgate has added some "fresher" names and the games have mostly been on the road which has artificially inflated the difficulty.

Like I said, stop getting your butt's kicked in the OOC. Simple. I'm starting to think you're just a glorified home coming opponent in these OOC games. We're talking about performing better in the OOC. Colgate and the rest of the league has to do better!

Lehigh'98

June 13th, 2018, 05:27 PM

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 13th, 2018, 06:00 PM

It's not like Lehigh is doing any better. We are just getting embarrassed at Goodman instead. Hate to say it, but until we make coaching changes, we will continue to get embarrassed. We need to keep our own house in order before we attack Colgate.

I posted the overall OOC records between Colgate and Lehigh this decade and it's not close. Lehigh has been significantly better. Colgate has not had a winning OOC record since 2011. That's not good! I'm not attacking Colgate. I'm simply pointing out they need to step up and win some of these games they schedule. Like or not they and Lehigh still carry the banner for the league nationally. That's why they're performances are under a bigger microscope imo...

found the records since 2010
Colgate 15-24, last winning OOC record 2011
Lehigh 23-17, last winning OOC record 2016

PAllen

June 13th, 2018, 06:37 PM

I posted the overall OOC records between Colgate and Lehigh this decade and it's not close. Lehigh has been significantly better. Colgate has not had a winning OOC record since 2011. That's not good! I'm not attacking Colgate. I'm simply pointing out they need to step up and win some of these games they schedule. Like or not they and Lehigh still carry the banner for the league nationally. That's why they're performances are under a bigger microscope imo...

found the records since 2010
Colgate 15-24, last winning OOC record 2011
Lehigh 23-17, last winning OOC record 2016

How about listing last championship game appearance, last semifinal appearance, last quarterfinal appearance, last playoff win? Colgate is doing just fine. I won't be at all surprised if Lehigh goes 0 'fer OOC this season.

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 13th, 2018, 07:37 PM

How about listing last championship game appearance, last semifinal appearance, last quarterfinal appearance, last playoff win? Colgate is doing just fine. I won't be at all surprised if Lehigh goes 0 'fer OOC this season.

Both Lehigh and Colgate might go O'fer in the OOC. Cornell is probably the easiest win of the lot but it's a rivalry game. My point continues to be that until you have a league worthy of a preseason top 25 there's an issue. The great thing about Lehigh's and Colgate's schedules is there is no where to hide for the preseason top 2 teams in the league. Colgate, and the rest of FCS, will know if they're pretenders nationally or contenders by the the time october rolls around.

Colgate won 2 playoff games in 2015 and that should be applauded. But a lot has happened since then and most of it hasn't been all too pretty relatively speaking. Outside of those two playoff wins their hasnt been a whole lot to talk about nationally in Hamilton recently.*

Colgate has a good history but there's also A LOT of playoff performances like Lehigh's last two. It was a bunch of ugliness between 2003 and 2015.*

I just want the league to improve and I just don't see it. Frustrating...

RichH2

June 13th, 2018, 07:38 PM

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 13th, 2018, 07:44 PM

Thread turning into a p*ssing contest between Lehigh and Colgate. I see no point in throwing stones around at anyone's scheduling. Ultimately, the only meaningful metric is W-L record going forward. Both teams have had successes in playoff and OOC matchups. The issue today is getting more OOC Ws by all PL teams not just Lehigh and Colgate.

They carry the torch for the PL if we like it or not. Their ceiling over the last 20 years tends to be league's ceiling. Colgate and Lehigh will once again be the prohibitive favorites. It's very relavent. Equity matters....

Go...gate

June 13th, 2018, 07:55 PM

How is that short sighted? It's a statistical fact you decrease your chances to win by playing on the road.

I don't think you "seek better competition". I don't see Colgate's schedule much tougher than Lehigh's or Holy Cross's in recent years. The difference is Colgate has added some "fresher" names and the games have mostly been on the road which has artificially inflated the difficulty.

Like I said, stop getting your butt's kicked in the OOC. Simple. I'm starting to think you're just a glorified home coming opponent in these OOC games. We're talking about performing better in the OOC. Colgate and the rest of the league has to do better!

We had a brief period under David Roach where he insisted on home and home games and we did not play as many road games, but the schedules got weaker. At the time he left, we had, among others, Bryant, Marist and Sacred Heart on future schedules. Thereafter Victoria Chun, with some encouragement from the Board of Trustees, went back to the traditional scheduling philosophy.

Speaking of "stop getting your butts kicked in the OOC", I'll remind you that Lehigh went winless OOC last year.

- - - Updated - - -

They carry the torch for the PL if we like it or not. Their ceiling over the last 20 years tends to be league's ceiling. Colgate and Lehigh will once again be the prohibitive favorites. It's very relavent. Equity matters....

We ALL carry the torch for the conference.

Go...gate

June 13th, 2018, 07:59 PM

Both Lehigh and Colgate might go O'fer in the OOC. Cornell is probably the easiest win of the lot but it's a rivalry game. My point continues to be that until you have a league worthy of a preseason top 25 there's an issue. The great thing about Lehigh's and Colgate's schedules is there is no where to hide for the preseason top 2 teams in the league. Colgate, and the rest of FCS, will know if they're pretenders nationally or contenders by the the time october rolls around.

Colgate won 2 playoff games in 2015 and that should be applauded. But a lot has happened since then and most of it hasn't been all too pretty relatively speaking. Outside of those two playoff wins their hasnt been a whole lot to talk about nationally in Hamilton recently.*

Colgate has a good history but there's also A LOT of playoff performances like Lehigh's last two. It was a bunch of ugliness between 2003 and 2015.*

I just want the league to improve and I just don't see it. Frustrating...

You are no different than the rest of us.

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 13th, 2018, 08:13 PM

We had a brief period under David Roach where he insisted on home and home games and we did not play as many road games, but the schedules got weaker. At the time he left, we had, among others, Bryant, Marist and Sacred Heart on future schedules. Thereafter Victoria Chun, with some encouragement from the Board of Trustees, went back to the traditional scheduling philosophy.

Speaking of "stop getting your butts kicked in the OOC", I'll remind you that Lehigh went winless OOC last year.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't agree with that at all. We ALL carry the torch for the conference.Like it or not it's the way it works in college sports. The most successful programs in each conference carry the torch for their respective conferences. It's always been like that....

No better example of that is AAC hoops. The league desperately needs UConn, Memphis and Temple to pick up their game. More is expected of them due to their historical accomplishments. When they're struggling so is the league.

The PAC12 is better when USC is rolling. The Big 12 is better when Texas is rolling. The ACC is better when Florida State is rolling. The Big 10 is better when Penn State is rolling. Sure it's nice when Washington State, Iowa State, NC State and Purdue are good but they don't create the buzz as the previous mentioned. I remember when the Mississippi schools were ranked 1 and 2 in the BCS instead of Alabama and Auburn. Despite the lofty rankings the Mississippi schools were never looked at in the same light as their conference foes to the east.

Go...gate

June 13th, 2018, 08:20 PM

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 13th, 2018, 08:30 PM

I agree. It is tiresome.

What's also tiresome is the league continuing to spin its tires nationally. The best way to change the league's identity is by winning OOC games. You can't have a "state of the league discussion" without talking about OOC performance/scheduling. It's the best way to determine how the league stacks up. It greatly affects recruiting, Top 25 rankings and playoff seeding. So until Colgate, Lehigh and the rest of the gang turn things around it will continue to be a hot button topic imo.

RichH2

June 13th, 2018, 08:32 PM

They carry the torch for the PL if we like it or not. Their ceiling over the last 20 years tends to be league's ceiling. Colgate and Lehigh will once again be the prohibitive favorites. It's very relavent. Equity matters....

Agree that historically Gate and Lehigh have carried the torch. Not my point . Regardless of how we did in the past, the point is we have to do much better now. No OOC is an array of cupcakes. All of us must improve.

Go...gate

June 14th, 2018, 02:09 AM

Agree that historically Gate and Lehigh have carried the torch. Not my point . Regardless of how we did in the past, the point is we have to do much better now. No OOC is an array of cupcakes. All of us must improve.

Amen. It is time.

carney2

June 14th, 2018, 12:05 PM

I posted the overall OOC records between Colgate and Lehigh this decade and it's not close. Lehigh has been significantly better. Colgate has not had a winning OOC record since 2011. That's not good! I'm not attacking Colgate. I'm simply pointing out they need to step up and win some of these games they schedule. Like or not they and Lehigh still carry the banner for the league nationally. That's why they're performances are under a bigger microscope imo...

found the records since 2010
Colgate 15-24, last winning OOC record 2011
Lehigh 23-17, last winning OOC record 2016

How about a nod to the level of competition for each?! Lehigh has feasted on far too many cupcakes to get those 23 wins. Lest we forget, it wasn't all that long ago when they went 10-1 and were denied a playoff bid - apparently because of the incredibly mediocre level of the OOC teams they beat.

van

June 14th, 2018, 01:40 PM

How about a nod to the level of competition for each?! Lehigh has feasted on far too many cupcakes to get those 23 wins. Lest we forget, it wasn't all that long ago when they went 10-1 and were denied a playoff bid - apparently because of the incredibly mediocre level of the OOC teams they beat.

disagree on too many cupcakes, most of the 23 wins came against Ivies, which some confuse as cupcakes because they do not participate in playoffs, 10-1 season had wins against Monmouth, CCSU, Princeton, Liberty and Columbia, not a fearsome fivesome but not all cupcakes either

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 14th, 2018, 02:36 PM

disagree on too many cupcakes, most of the 23 wins came against Ivies, which some confuse as cupcakes because they do not participate in playoffs, 10-1 season had wins against Monmouth, CCSU, Princeton, Liberty and Columbia, not a fearsome fivesome but not all cupcakes either

Exactly!

I bet Lehigh has the best record against the Ivies since that time.

Go...gate

June 14th, 2018, 06:19 PM

Exactly!

I bet Lehigh has the best record against the Ivies since that time.

Not sure that means all that much, as the Ivies have elected to play is far less since scholarships were adopted.

FWIW, Colgate was 11-6 against the Ivies from 2010 - present.

RichH2

June 14th, 2018, 07:24 PM

Agree it doesnt mean much but quick scan Lehigh 13-3 from 10-16.

RichH2

June 14th, 2018, 07:26 PM

Agree it doesnt mean much but quick scan Lehigh 13-3 from 10-16.

RichH2

June 14th, 2018, 07:29 PM

Oops. :)
13-5 thru last season. I am trying to block out last year's OOC. :)

Go...gate

June 14th, 2018, 08:56 PM

That measure will probably diminish over time because the Ivies are playing us less frequently and the trend appears to be continuing. Colgate has one OOC game against the Ivy (Cornell) in 2018 and two such games (Cornell and Dartmouth) in 2019.

RichH2

June 14th, 2018, 09:20 PM

Hoyas will get some benefit tho. At least 2 or 3 a year. Good for them.

DFW HOYA

June 14th, 2018, 09:36 PM

Hoyas will get some benefit tho. At least 2 or 3 a year. Good for them.

Georgetown's future Ivy opponents appear to largely be limited to Columbia.

2019: Columbia, Cornell
2020: Columbia
2021: Columbia

Go...gate

June 15th, 2018, 01:13 AM

Hoyas will get some benefit tho. At least 2 or 3 a year. Good for them.

Agreed. DFW HOYA, I believe the Ivies will have a few OOC dalliances but will come back to the Hoyas in the longer term. The matchups make economic sense and reasonable road trips for both sides.

van

June 15th, 2018, 06:38 AM

how long will they be content playing Pioneer teams?

DFW HOYA

June 15th, 2018, 07:29 AM

Agreed. DFW HOYA, I believe the Ivies will have a few OOC dalliances but will come back to the Hoyas in the longer term. The matchups make economic sense and reasonable road trips for both sides.

Yale had a six year series, did not renew.
Harvard had a four year series, did not renew.
Princeton had a four year series, did not renew.
Penn had a two year series, did not renew.

The Ivies are sending a message--they, like many of us, grow weary with the never ending talk about future facilities. More importantly, they want a competitive opponent. Georgetown is 1-15 against those teams since 2007. Is that a function of bad luck, bad coaching, or that the current model is making it less and less likely Georgetown gets the talent to compete?

CFBfan

June 15th, 2018, 08:41 AM

how long will they be content playing Pioneer teams?

bigger concern / questions: how long will the PL be content with seemingly no lift from 6 years and counting of scholarships?

van

June 15th, 2018, 09:25 AM

bigger concern / questions: how long will the PL be content with seemingly no lift from 6 years and counting of scholarships?

easy question, already not content

DFW HOYA

June 15th, 2018, 09:42 AM

bigger concern / questions: how long will the PL be content with seemingly no lift from 6 years and counting of scholarships?

They are content.

The Presidents aren't going to drop or reduce scholarships and, like scholarship basketball, may come to the conclusion that the lift wasn't what they had anticipated but it is the cost of doing business at this level.

CFBfan

June 15th, 2018, 10:03 AM

They are content.

The Presidents aren't going to drop or reduce scholarships and, like scholarship basketball, may come to the conclusion that the lift wasn't what they had anticipated but it is the cost of doing business at this level.

with results no better then pre-scholly days i'm not so sure. pretty hard to justify that cost!

RichH2

June 15th, 2018, 10:05 AM

bigger concern / questions: how long will the PL be content with seemingly no lift from 6 years and counting of scholarships?

PL Concil of Presidents acts slowly in most everything they do. It took years for us to follow Fordham and more time to fully implement. The lack of success has resulted in some small adjustments to financial aid to provide for 69 athletic grants plus need aid up to 63. 3 schools have hired new young HCs to reinvigorate their programs. The remaining obstacles of the AI,redshirting and roster caps are next but dont expect substantive changes any time soon.
Roster cap is actually a non issue . The AI and redshirting rules are a remnant of our Ivy Lite inception.Fordham,Lehigh and Colgate have been supportive of modifications to these holdovers. For varying reasons both philosophical and financial other Presidsents seem reluctant to pursue any further actions.

Go...gate

June 15th, 2018, 11:37 AM

PL Council of Presidents acts slowly in most everything they do. It took years for us to follow Fordham and more time to fully implement. The lack of success has resulted in some small adjustments to financial aid to provide for 69 athletic grants plus need aid up to 63. 3 schools have hired new young HCs to reinvigorate their programs. The remaining obstacles of the AI, redshirting and roster caps are next but don't expect substantive changes any time soon.
Roster cap is actually a non issue. The AI and redshirting rules are a remnant of our Ivy Lite inception. Fordham, Lehigh and Colgate have been supportive of modifications to these holdovers. For varying reasons both philosophical and financial other Presidents seem reluctant to pursue any further actions.

Correction - PL Council of Presidents, like the Ivies, is GLACIAL in how they make decisions and implement changes. "Slowly" connotes far more rapid movement than is actually the case.

This Summer marks thirty-five years since the league was announced (1983). Time moves quickly, but not for the Patriot (or Ivy).

RichH2

June 15th, 2018, 11:52 AM

Correction - PL Council of Presidents, like the Ivies, is GLACIAL in how they make decisions and implement changes. "Slowly" connotes far more rapid movement than is actually the case.

This Summer marks thirty-five years since the league was announced (1983). Time moves quickly, but not for the Patriot (or Ivy).
Well yeah! Slow for our Presidents is defined in academic terms. "Soon" translates to perhaps within a decade or two. :)

PAllen

June 15th, 2018, 05:07 PM

Yale had a six year series, did not renew.
Harvard had a four year series, did not renew.
Princeton had a four year series, did not renew.
Penn had a two year series, did not renew.

The Ivies are sending a message--they, like many of us, grow weary with the never ending talk about future facilities. More importantly, they want a competitive opponent. Georgetown is 1-15 against those teams since 2007. Is that a function of bad luck, bad coaching, or that the current model is making it less and less likely Georgetown gets the talent to compete?

The Ivies want a name opponent they can reliably beat. The Hoyas meet that criteria. It's the facilities that are too much of an embarrassment for the Ivies to bear.

cx500d

June 15th, 2018, 07:25 PM

how long will they be content playing Pioneer teams?

They don’t want any part of the mvfc

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

carney2

June 16th, 2018, 12:01 PM

with results no better then pre-scholly days i'm not so sure. pretty hard to justify that cost!

If there's any kind of a cost/benefit analysis going on here I'm not seeing it. At Lafayette it is 100% about the cost and how to keep it down.

carney2

June 17th, 2018, 11:01 AM

The Ivies want a name opponent they can reliably beat. The Hoyas meet that criteria. It's the facilities that are too much of an embarrassment for the Ivies to bear.

Once upon a not too long time ago, it looked like the Ancient Eight had bought a new suit of clothes. They did a little national scheduling as they showed the Patsies the door. I always thought that Murphy would lead the way here, but it was Princeton. And now ... ?

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 17th, 2018, 08:45 PM

They don’t want any part of the mvfc

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I highly doubt Yale, Penn and likely Dartmouth would shy away from a mid-level MVFC team. One of them would likely be willing take on a UNI or NDSU or SDSU. Those Ivies have shown the ability to compete and beat teams from the power conferences. The question for the Ivy League school's is obviously what's the benefit outside of the game itself? Playing CAA teams makes sense for many reasons. The SoCon offers private schools with good academics. Plus there's a lot of Ivy League grads that find their way to Atlanta and Charlotte. BSC games give the Ivies a chance to touch base with the west coast. I'm not sure how eager IL athletic departments care about "directional mid-western state schools". It's a shame because I think there could be some awesome games. Yale vs UNI/SDSU this year would be must watch! It's clear some of the Ivy League coaches and players want to find a way into the national conversation.

I love the PL-IL games! I always have! It's great that Lehigh seems intent on playing at least 2 a year.

RichH2

June 18th, 2018, 01:36 PM

Do love Ivy games. Penn and Princeton have become regulars. Some variety would be nice. Some SoCon series would hit the spot :).

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 18th, 2018, 03:33 PM

Do love Ivy games. Penn and Princeton have become regulars. Some variety would be nice. Some SoCon series would hit the spot :).

I like Princeton as the most played opponent. Great road trip, stadium, campus etc. Plus, the Tigers are generally pretty good. I wish Lehigh would play Dartmouth more. A late September road trip to Hanover would be excellent! I would have went to Ithaca in 2014 but Lehigh was 0-5 at that point.

RichH2

June 18th, 2018, 04:24 PM

I like Princeton as the most played opponent. Great road trip, stadium, campus etc. Plus, the Tigers are generally pretty good. I wish Lehigh would play Dartmouth more. A late September road trip to Hanover would be excellent! I would have went to Ithaca in 2014 but Lehigh was 0-5 at that point.
Prefer Penn as I truly hate them :). For other Ivies, I wouldnt mind a Brown trip. We have a lot of family up there :)

LUHawker

June 19th, 2018, 12:42 PM

Prefer Penn as I truly hate them :). For other Ivies, I wouldnt mind a Brown trip. We have a lot of family up there :)

Wish we could get William & Mary on the schedule. I remember a couple of great games in the late 80's/early 90's with the Tribe and it would be nice to mix up the schedule, which as I've lamented often, is stale.

RichH2

June 19th, 2018, 04:40 PM

Last W&M game I saw in person was at Taylor. It didnt end well.:)
Wofford Citadel Furman . Any one of them would be great.
A home game in the playoffs even better.

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 19th, 2018, 04:42 PM

Last W&M game I saw in person was at Taylor. It didnt end well.:)
Wofford Citadel Furman . Any one of them would be great.
A home game in the playoffs even better.

The one I saw at Goodman in '91 did! Mark Lockenbill had one helluva game for an injured Larry Arico.

If only the PL was playoff eligible in 1991. Lehigh and Holy Cross were at least semifinal worthy imo.....

And completely agree about a home playoff game. But that discussion has become extremely frustrating....

RichH2

June 19th, 2018, 05:53 PM

Agree owl. Just one of the frustrating things about being a Lehigh fan.

DFW HOYA

June 19th, 2018, 05:56 PM

If only the PL was playoff eligible in 1991. Lehigh and Holy Cross were at least semifinal worthy imo.....

Lehigh's schedule wasn't that strong in 1991.

1991 (9-2)
Wins over:
Fordham (2-8)
Connecticut (3-8)
Columbia (1-9)
Dartmouth (7-2-1)
Northeastern (4-7)
Pennsylvania (2-8)
William & Mary (5-6)
Bucknell (1-9)
Lafayette (6-5)

Losses to
Holy Cross (11-0)
Colgate (4-7)

Total strength of schedule: 46-69 (.400)

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 19th, 2018, 06:42 PM

Lehigh's schedule wasn't that strong in 1991.

1991 (9-2)
Wins over:
Fordham (2-8)
Connecticut (3-8)
Columbia (1-9)
Dartmouth (7-2-1)
Northeastern (4-7)
Pennsylvania (2-8)
William & Mary (5-6)
Bucknell (1-9)
Lafayette (6-5)

Losses to
Holy Cross (11-0)
Colgate (4-7)

Total strength of schedule: 46-69 (.400)

Dartmouth was a Top 25 team led by Jay Fiedler. W&M had a bunch of talent back then and was always a tough out. Lehigh dominated Fordham, UConn, Lafayette and Bucknell. Holy Cross was obviously a Top 5 team and Colgate up there late in the year after the W&M game bit them. Lehigh was 2 points away from undefeated. Villanova had a really team (ranked #1 a week or two) that year yet I think Lehigh and or Holy Cross could have beaten them.

That Lehigh team had a few guys who at least had a cup of coffee in the NFL. They and Holy Cross were loaded with big time 1-AA talent.

DFW HOYA

June 19th, 2018, 07:14 PM

Dartmouth was a Top 25 team led by Jay Fiedler. W&M had a bunch of talent back then and was always a tough out. Lehigh dominated Fordham, UConn, Lafayette and Bucknell. Holy Cross was obviously a Top 5 team and Colgate up there late in the year after the W&M game bit them. Lehigh was 2 points away from undefeated. Villanova had a really team (ranked #1 a week or two) that year yet I think Lehigh and or Holy Cross could have beaten them. That Lehigh team had a few guys who at least had a cup of coffee in the NFL. They and Holy Cross were loaded with big time 1-AA talent.

Even if the PL were in the playoffs, Lehigh would not have qualified for the 16 team field. If #3 HC was in, the unranked Engineers would then have had to be ranked alongside #6 Delaware, #7 Villanova, and #8 Marshall, not to mention #11 UNH, so there was no way the East was going to get more than five teams in a 16 team field.

Remember this was pre-MAAC, NEC, and Big South. The East literally had one playoff-eligible conference (Yankee) and six independents.

Was Lehigh '91 a good team? Of course. But the East was loaded.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_NCAA_Division_I-AA_football_rankings

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 19th, 2018, 07:37 PM

Even if the PL were in the playoffs, Lehigh would not have qualified for the 16 team field. If #3 HC was in, the unranked Engineers would then have had to be ranked alongside #6 Delaware, #7 Villanova, and #8 Marshall, not to mention #11 UNH, so there was no way the East was going to get more than five teams in a 16 team field.

Remember this was pre-MAAC, NEC, and Big South. The East literally had one playoff-eligible conference (Yankee) and six independents.

Was Lehigh '91 a good team? Of course. But the East was loaded.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_NCAA_Division_I-AA_football_rankings

Lehigh was definitely ranked for a good portion of the year. Where they finished given how polls work as a non playoff team isn't all that important. Lehigh and Holy Cross got national attention from their undefeated battle late October. They were both known entities in 1-AA.

The point is, IF the PL was playoff eligible they would have built up a lot of equity from Holy Cross. This is 1991 so Lehigh as a national power in the 70's and early 80's isn't ancient history. Lafayette's Frank Bauer was on the cover of Sports Illustraded in 1989. The PL would have also received 2 bids in 1988 (Lafayette and Holy Cross) on the heels of the Crusaders 1987 team.

Unless you were around PL/1-AA at that time it's tough to know the context of the era. The leage fell off a cliff in 1992 and didnt recover until 1997/1998.

I know 1991 well. I know 1991 Villanova well. HC and Lehigh would have went toe to toe with the Wildcats and Hens that year. Tom Ciaccio, Cory Vincent, Glen Kempa, Horrace Hamm, Kevin Jefferson etc.

Fordham

June 20th, 2018, 08:32 AM

Lehigh was definitely ranked for a good portion of the year. Where they finished given how polls work as a non playoff team isn't all that important. Lehigh and Holy Cross got national attention from their undefeated battle late October. They were both known entities in 1-AA.

The point is, IF the PL was playoff eligible they would have built up a lot of equity from Holy Cross. This is 1991 so Lehigh as a national power in the 70's and early 80's isn't ancient history. Lafayette's Frank Bauer was on the cover of Sports Illustraded in 1989. The PL would have also received 2 bids in 1988 (Lafayette and Holy Cross) on the heels of the Crusaders 1987 team.

Unless you were around PL/1-AA at that time it's tough to know the context of the era. The leage fell off a cliff in 1992 and didnt recover until 1997/1998.

I know 1991 well. I know 1991 Villanova well. HC and Lehigh would have went toe to toe with the Wildcats and Hens that year. Tom Ciaccio, Cory Vincent, Glen Kempa, Horrace Hamm, Kevin Jefferson etc.

Oddly for a 2 - 8 squad we were actually a really talented team that year and played top 10 Nova and HC down to the final minute of both. Really could have been a turn around year if things had clicked but we were the classic case of a team that just didn't know how to win

https://www.nytimes.com/1991/11/24/sports/college-football-east-a-late-villanova-rally-is-another-fordham-loss.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1991/11/17/irish-watch-holy-cross-set-div-i-aa-consecutive-win-mark/b59519b3-9e68-4a12-99f8-c7295b8b1144/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.be1d0d1cb017

Sader87

June 20th, 2018, 10:16 AM

Go Lehigh TU Owl

June 20th, 2018, 10:52 AM

That 1991 HC team was very good but not dominant like the teams from the previous half decade or so. Only the Seniors on that team were still scholarship players. Kind of the flip-side to that 1991 Fordham team in a way in that they "knew how to win" having only done that while at HC at that time.

The Fordham-HC football rivalry may be unique in that has been played in 3 different countries...that '91 game was played in Ireland and they then met a few years later in Bermuda.

Not as dominant relative to what standard? 1987? Outside of '87 most of the Crusader teams were awesome but not historically great. The '88 team was hit by graduation but was still VERY GOOD, 9-2. Following '88 they proceeded to go 10-1, 9-1-1 and 11-0. The senior class in 1991 was nearly as good as the '87 class imo. Ciaccio and Vincent are two of the greatest players in the history of HC and the PL. Ciaccio was a 3 year starter? 1991 might have lacked depth but their 2-deep was still good enough to make a run at the Finals.

Lafayette in 1988 and Lehigh in 1991 are the other teams during HC's run that were easily nationally viable.

RichH2

June 20th, 2018, 11:47 AM

The reality sadly is that what we were back then is not what we are now. At least not yet.

The Boogie Down

June 20th, 2018, 12:15 PM

Sader87

June 20th, 2018, 03:45 PM

Not as dominant relative to what standard? 1987? Outside of '87 most of the Crusader teams were awesome but not historically great. The '88 team was hit by graduation but was still VERY GOOD, 9-2. Following '88 they proceeded to go 10-1, 9-1-1 and 11-0. The senior class in 1991 was nearly as good as the '87 class imo. Ciaccio and Vincent are two of the greatest players in the history of HC and the PL. Ciaccio was a 3 year starter? 1991 might have lacked depth but their 2-deep was still good enough to make a run at the Finals.

Lafayette in 1988 and Lehigh in 1991 are the other teams during HC's run that were easily nationally viable.

The '91 HC team was good but they really weren't tested schedule-wise that year...beat, middling at best, that year UMass and BU in very close games. Outside of Lehigh, the only other quality win might have been at a 7-2-1 Dartmouth.One of the weaker HC schedules in that era.

The HC teams of the early, mid and late 1980s were deeper and overall bettah than that 1991 squad imo.

Sader87

June 20th, 2018, 03:50 PM

A 4th country (Italy, Cuba, England, Canada) would be cool but more than that I'd really love to see the sides meet up at Fenway Park. After the Yankee Stadium game I had heard that Fenway was in the cards but haven't heard a peep about this since.

I haven't heard anything either....could be in the works but the "all FCS games" at Fenway last year were mostly duds attendance-wise I believe.

I think the Yankee game worked to a degree as there is a very high % of HC grads from or living in the NYC-area...not sure that's the case with Fordham in the Boston-area.

Go...gate

June 20th, 2018, 11:04 PM

The reality sadly is that what we were back then is not what we are now. At least not yet.

Except for 1987 (7-4) and 1990 (7-4), those years were dreadful for Colgate. Losing seasons in 1988 (2-9), 1989 (4-7), 1991 (4-7), 1992 (4-7), 1993 (3-7-1), 1994 (3-8) and 1995 (0-11). Holy Cross and Lehigh were far stronger overall in that period.

RichH2

June 21st, 2018, 07:55 PM

RichH2

June 21st, 2018, 08:17 PM

Pard rumor that Garrett has signed some FBS transfer. Supposedly a WR and a DL among them.
Fantasy or reality?

ngineer

June 21st, 2018, 11:56 PM

Lindys College Football out with its preseason.
PL finally has a team at #24.
LEHIGH
A puzzling pick to say the least. I am going with Lindys has inside info the Lehigh has found a D. Yup xrolleyes. xdrunkyx

It's been the same assumption for the past four years...IF Lehigh comes up with any kind of defense we are a top 20 team.xcoffeex

Go...gate

June 22nd, 2018, 10:48 PM

How was Lehigh's recruiting on the defensive side of the ball?

RichH2

June 23rd, 2018, 08:43 AM

How was Lehigh's recruiting on the defensive side of the ball?

Not bad at all. A 3* DL in Laurencelle;a decommit from Army in Rajkowsky at Rover; Rybka ,a NJ 1st team A-S DT who decommitted from Rutgers and Army; Markus an A-S DE from Georgia and Foley at LB .a DPOY.

Talent was not our biggest problem last year on D. New system,new coaches and injuries were major factors. Five years of increasingly bad defense hopefully bottomed out last year. Regardless of reasons Coen is firmly on the hot seat if the defense does not improve markedly this coming season.

van

June 23rd, 2018, 05:50 PM

any info on Rajkowsky? first I have heard about him

RichH2

June 23rd, 2018, 06:27 PM

Led Palisades to a great season. All Area at LB. East-West PA All Star game. Crushing tackler. On O played FB. No surprise . Better than avg speed but his power more impressive. Recruited by the Academies and others .
Army coaches wanted to MAPS him. He said no. Contacted Andy and we now have him. Good gene pool. His Dad played at PSU. Ran track and played baseball. His videos are quite impressive. He will be a Rover at Lehigh.

van

June 23rd, 2018, 06:46 PM

nice size for Rover, not those short skinny guys

PAllen

June 23rd, 2018, 07:35 PM

nice size for Rover, not those short skinny guys

Can't have him on defense if he isn't short, skinny, and slow.

van

June 23rd, 2018, 08:10 PM

Can't have him on defense if he isn't short, skinny, and slow.

good point!

RichH2

June 23rd, 2018, 08:46 PM

:) Well I guess he'll have to go to RB then.