Patriot League 2018 - way way way to early

[UNHWildcat18]

Aren't you the guy who thinks the PL needs to do better OOC? And you're running away from Monmouth after they've "repetitively" beaten you all of 3 times in a row? Seems to me you should right that wrong rather than looking for a tastier cupcake...

Seriously, what a ridiculous train of thought.

[RichH2]

Seriously, what a ridiculous train of thought.
You are both missing owl's point. His objection in this regard is not the level of competition but the repetitiveness of Lehigh"s OOC schedule. Rather than playing MU every year it would be better to schedule another Big South or SoCon team not replace it with lower level competition.

[UNHWildcat18]

You are both missing owl's point. His objection in this regard is not the level of competition but the repetitiveness of Lehigh"s OOC schedule. Rather than playing MU every year it would be better to schedule another Big South or SoCon team not replace it with lower level competition.

I'm sure he wouldn't be saying it had they won the last 3. Schedules do change but if you schedule a long term home and home with teams what are you gonna do? I don't disagree with changing up OOC of course I'd like to see UNH play other teams, but it wouldn't be because a team that I view as "lower" than us is currently beating us for 3 straight years. Lehigh needs a lot of OOC games and Monmouth playing in the big south needs a closer to NJ game. Maybe Lehigh can schedule Marist in the next few years lol.

P.S. Also he literally stated not playing them until they would be sure they would UNI them......Go ahead and schedule another team from further away to change things up, but if your admin schedules a frequent close OOC game you better put up or shut up. Monmouth is going to basically be a 8th member for the foreseeable future of the PL

[van]

I'm sure he wouldn't be saying it had they won the last 3. Schedules do change but if you schedule a long term home and home with teams what are you gonna do? I don't disagree with changing up OOC of course I'd like to see UNH play other teams, but it wouldn't be because a team that I view as "lower" than us is currently beating us for 3 straight years. Lehigh needs a lot of OOC games and Monmouth playing in the big south needs a closer to NJ game. Maybe Lehigh can schedule Marist in the next few years lol.

P.S. Also he literally stated not playing them until they would be sure they would UNI them......Go ahead and schedule another team from further away to change things up, but if your admin schedules a frequent close OOC game you better put up or shut up. Monmouth is going to basically be a 7th member for the foreseeable future of the PL

I think 18 has it right, Monmouth is a short ride, in our recruiting area and also needs OOC games, when you have 5 OOC open dates you gotta take what is reasonably available, now I agree that more variety in the OOC schedule would be nice, there is not as many options as one would think given that Andy does not like to travel, if we continue with 2 or 3 Ivies (3 Ivies getting harder to get) and 2 or 3 "locals" from 2 or 3 different conferences then that pretty much leaves a NEC, a CAA, and/or a Big South with maybe a FBS every so often

[Gate83]

You are both missing owl's point. His objection in this regard is not the level of competition but the repetitiveness of Lehigh"s OOC schedule. Rather than playing MU every year it would be better to schedule another Big South or SoCon team not replace it with lower level competition.

Actually, my point was to take a longer view. 8 games in 20 years isn't an overload, and to look elsewhere just because you're on a short term losing streak is weak. Monmouth is improving, convenient for your fan base, in a prime recruiting area... and you'd rather play Kennesaw State or Gardner Webb just for variety? It would be a better argument if you were 8-0 vs. Monmouth...

[Tribe4SF]

Bucknell released its 2018 schedule. Notice: No Marist. The only surprise here is that Sacred Heart returns to Lewisburg for a second consecutive appearance.

Sept. 1: William & Mary
Sept. 8: Sacred Heart
Sept. 15: at Penn
Sept. 22: at Villanova
Sept. 29: at Holy Cross*
Oct. 6: Colgate*
Oct. 13: at Monmouth
Oct. 20: Lafayette* (Homecoming)
Nov. 3: at Lehigh*
Nov. 10: at Georgetown*
Nov. 17: Fordham*



Would be looking forward to visiting Lewisburg for the opener, but where the heck do you stay around there? Options look really limited.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I'm sure he wouldn't be saying it had they won the last 3. Schedules do change but if you schedule a long term home and home with teams what are you gonna do? I don't disagree with changing up OOC of course I'd like to see UNH play other teams, but it wouldn't be because a team that I view as "lower" than us is currently beating us for 3 straight years. Lehigh needs a lot of OOC games and Monmouth playing in the big south needs a closer to NJ game. Maybe Lehigh can schedule Marist in the next few years lol.

P.S. Also he literally stated not playing them until they would be sure they would UNI them......Go ahead and schedule another team from further away to change things up, but if your admin schedules a frequent close OOC game you better put up or shut up. Monmouth is going to basically be a 8th member for the foreseeable future of the PL


Sarcasm really doesn't convey very well on message boards. But either way, Lehigh and the rest of the PL need to perform better in the OOC if the conference is going remain viable nationally. Monmouth is the perfect example of a school trending up (even modestly) while the Patriot League and a school, Lehigh, remains stagnant or regresses.

I would absolutely love Lehigh to get more adventurous with their OOC scheduling rather than play the closest schools they can find. Sure Monmouth is close geographically but it doesn't mean you have to play them on a regular basis. When you play the same teams over and over in the OOC they basically become extended conference games in a way. Wagner is nearly the same distance and Lehigh had never played them iirc until this year. And Lehigh sucked so bad this year they couldn't beat them!

What's funny is I saw Monmouth play Montana State when I was living in Bozeman. I know Lehigh would never venture out to the Gallatin Valley.

[LehighU11]

Would be looking forward to visiting Lewisburg for the opener, but where the heck do you stay around there? Options look really limited.
The lone Bucknell fan here may have a better suggestion in town, but your options are actually pretty decent for being in the middle of nowhere.

If you're looking to stay in a hotel, there are several options just 3 miles north of campus along Rt. 15: Radisson, Best Western, and Hampton Inn. The Country Cupboard has a good bakery, as well as a restaurant/buffet, and is in the middle of all three. There are plenty of other hotels along 15 between Selinsgrove and Lewisburg, as well. I stayed at the Best Western years ago when it was a family-run place. It was simple, but nice and clean, and just a short walk away from the Country Cupboard. There's also a sports bar right next door.

[van]

Sarcasm really doesn't convey very well on message boards. But either way, Lehigh and the rest of the PL need to perform better in the OOC if the conference is going remain viable nationally. Monmouth is the perfect example of a school trending up (even modestly) while the Patriot League and a school, Lehigh, remains stagnant or regresses.

I would absolutely love Lehigh to get more adventurous with their OOC scheduling rather than play the closest schools they can find. Sure Monmouth is close geographically but it doesn't mean you have to play them on a regular basis. When you play the same teams over and over in the OOC they basically become extended conference games in a way. Wagner is nearly the same distance and Lehigh had never played them iirc until this year. And Lehigh sucked so bad this year they couldn't beat them!

What's funny is I saw Monmouth play Montana State when I was living in Bozeman. I know Lehigh would never venture out to the Gallatin Valley.

funny you should mention Wagner, that game was panned by many fans as a dumb match up, oh well we just like to complain I guess

[DFW HOYA]

Sarcasm really doesn't convey very well on message boards. But either way, Lehigh and the rest of the PL need to perform better in the OOC if the conference is going remain viable nationally. Monmouth is the perfect example of a school trending up (even modestly) while the Patriot League and a school, Lehigh, remains stagnant or regresses.

The PL has no plan. There are schools going in four or five different directions without an awareness that some of these teams are in high gear to nowhere.

[RichH2]

The PL has no plan. There are schools going in four or five different directions without an awareness that some of these teams are in high gear to nowhere.

Well said. :) In that initial rush of unbridled enthusiasm of schollies, some may have overscheduled a tad. Schedule up and you'll get better players or get better players and then schedule up. Have no idea which plan is s better choice to build a program. The next few years will be interesting.

[Tribe4SF]

The lone Bucknell fan here may have a better suggestion in town, but your options are actually pretty decent for being in the middle of nowhere.

If you're looking to stay in a hotel, there are several options just 3 miles north of campus along Rt. 15: Radisson, Best Western, and Hampton Inn. The Country Cupboard has a good bakery, as well as a restaurant/buffet, and is in the middle of all three. There are plenty of other hotels along 15 between Selinsgrove and Lewisburg, as well. I stayed at the Best Western years ago when it was a family-run place. It was simple, but nice and clean, and just a short walk away from the Country Cupboard. There's also a sports bar right next door.

Thanks!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Lehigh fans in general not only expect to beat Monmouth, they also have had no respect for Monmouth. I think the first thing that needs to happen is Lehigh needs to first respect and then beat Monmouth. If anything, Monmouth has proven a lot that they deserve our respect.

If Lehigh were to suddenly stop scheduling Monmouth now, it would be a retreat - saying to the world that we cannot compete with Monmouth, so we won't try. Kind of like how Iowa stopped scheduling UNI - UNI was getting a wee bit too close to winning, so they stopped scheduling them and the Big 10 concocted some story about how FCS games were "uncompetitive", even though Iowa couldn't beat them by more than 10 points. Lehigh shouldn't act cowardly like Iowa and the Big 10.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Well said. :) In that initial rush of unbridled enthusiasm of schollies, some may have overscheduled a tad. Schedule up and you'll get better players or get better players and then schedule up. Have no idea which plan is s better choice to build a program. The next few years will be interesting.

Scheduling up and trying to get better really have nothing to do with one another. There's some teams that schedule aggressively and never get better. With 5 OOC games the PL schools obviously have a multitude of options. The one thing that has to be realized is the fact that the PL schools are still not playing teams with an even deck. Do to the lack of redshirts, limited roster sizes and AI you already have a competitive disadvantage that must be circumvented as best as possible. History means jack crap when you're playing a handicapped game. Plus, paying coaches below market value and relying on young assistants to navigate the murky waters of the PL is a recipe for disaster.

[PAllen]

Originally Posted by DFW HOYA http://www.anygivensaturday.com/images/SeamusLight/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?p=2611598#post2611598)
The PL has no plan. There are schools going in four or five different directions without an awareness that some of these teams are in high gear to nowhere.

Well said. :) In that initial rush of unbridled enthusiasm of schollies, some may have overscheduled a tad. Schedule up and you'll get better players or get better players and then schedule up. Have no idea which plan is s better choice to build a program. The next few years will be interesting.

"High gear to nowhere" is a good descriptor for most of the PL right now.

As far as schedule up vs better players first, there's always the Lehigh approach and not schedule up while not getting better players.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The PL has no plan. There are schools going in four or five different directions without an awareness that some of these teams are in high gear to nowhere.

You've been on a roll lately! Accurately put!

[Doc QB]

Thanks! I 'conned' my wife into an overnight visit there a couple years ago for LU-Bucknell on a hot fall day...stayed in a B&B on the main drag in Lewisburg, could walk to the restaurants/bars the night before, nice small town. Was across street from retro movie theatre. Students were on break. The house was a quaint center hall white colonial, owners super nice, nice grub for breakfast. So, if you gotta take the better half, it wont disappoint. Forget the name though.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The PL's Last 10 Playoff losses.

I was doing some research and this caught my attention. Every single loss has been decided by 10 points or more! Most of these games were complete mismatches and over by half time. Why is it that when the PL team loses they rarely go down swinging?

2010 Delaware 42 Lehigh 20
2011 NDSU 24 Lehigh 0
2012 Wagner 31 Colgate 20
2013 Towson 48 Fordham 28
2013 New Hampshire 45 Lafayette 7
2014 New Hampshire 44 Fordham 19
2015 Chattanooga 50 Fordham 20
2015 Sam Houston 48 Colgate 21
2016 New Hampshire 64 Lehigh 21
2017 Stony Brook 59 Lehigh 29

Average Score
Them 45.5 US 16.4

[Southsider]

The PL's Last 10 Playoff losses.

I was doing some research and this caught my attention. Every single loss has been decided by 10 points or more! Most of these games were complete mismatches and over by half time. Why is it that when the PL team loses they rarely go down swinging?

2010 Delaware 42 Lehigh 20
2011 NDSU 24 Lehigh 0
2012 Wagner 31 Colgate 20
2013 Towson 48 Fordham 28
2013 New Hampshire 45 Lafayette 7
2014 New Hampshire 44 Fordham 19
2015 Chattanooga 50 Fordham 20
2015 Sam Houston 48 Colgate 21
2016 New Hampshire 64 Lehigh 21
2017 Stony Brook 59 Lehigh 29

Average Score
Them 45.5 US 16.4

You really need to ask????

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I dug a little deeper and found an amazing nugget. During the history of the Patriot League's "playoff era", 1997-present, there have been TWO, 2, Dos playoff losses that were by less than 10 points. That's an amazing stat! That's not to say all these games were blowouts but in the end they weren't 1 possession type battles. The 4 games that I thought were <10 points ('09 Holy Cross-Villanova, '07 Fordham-UMass, '05 Lafayette-App State, '04 Lafayette-Delaware) were actually 10-14 point margins.

Only Lehigh has single digit playoff losses on their resume. Ironically, both came against the eventual National Champion.
2004 JMU 14 Lehigh 13
1998 UMass 27 Lehigh 21

There's an obvious reason for this.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

You really need to ask????

Defense xthumbsupx Physically outmanned on defense....

[PAllen]

The PL's Last 10 Playoff losses.

I was doing some research and this caught my attention. Every single loss has been decided by 10 points or more! Most of these games were complete mismatches and over by half time. Why is it that when the PL team loses they rarely go down swinging?

2010 Delaware 42 Lehigh 20
2011 NDSU 24 Lehigh 0
2012 Wagner 31 Colgate 20
2013 Towson 48 Fordham 28
2013 New Hampshire 45 Lafayette 7
2014 New Hampshire 44 Fordham 19
2015 Chattanooga 50 Fordham 20
2015 Sam Houston 48 Colgate 21
2016 New Hampshire 64 Lehigh 21
2017 Stony Brook 59 Lehigh 29

Average Score
Them 45.5 US 16.4

Honestly? Because for the most part, the league is just happy to be there and not overly interested in actually winning.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Honestly? Because for the most part, the league is just happy to be there and not overly interested in actually winning.

On paper it's the defenses being run off the field. If you go back to the start, 1997, the PL has given up an absurd amount of points in their losses.

But overall, you're right. It's a combination of many things but it ultimately comes down to commitment.

Another interesting tidbit, all but 2 of the PL's playoff losses have occurred on the opponents home field. The ones that didn't; '03 National Title Game (Colgate vs Delaware) and '04 1st Round JMU at Lehigh. That drives me crazy!

Colgate is 2-0 in home playoff games, both wins came as a seeded team in '03
Fordham is 2-0 in home playoff games (both vs NEC Sacred Heart)
Lehigh 1-1 in home playoff games (both vs then A10 teams)

[ngineer]

I am still pissed about the 2004 JMU hose job!

[DFW HOYA]

Another interesting tidbit, all but 2 of the PL's playoff losses have occurred on the opponents home field. The ones that didn't; '03 National Title Game (Colgate vs Delaware) and '04 1st Round JMU at Lehigh. That drives me crazy!


How many PL schools (or to be fair, Colgate, Lehigh and Fordham) are actually bidding for first round games?

[aceinthehole]

Another interesting tidbit, all but 2 of the PL's playoff losses have occurred on the opponents home field. The ones that didn't; '03 National Title Game (Colgate vs Delaware) and '04 1st Round JMU at Lehigh. That drives me crazy!

All of the NEC playoff losses were on the opponents home field; the only NEC home game in the playoffs was a win (Wagner vs. Colgate).

[Gate83]

All of the NEC playoff losses were on the opponents home field; the only NEC home game in the playoffs was a win (Wagner vs. Colgate).

Which to DFW & Owl's point, should've been a Gate home game. Our new prez is much more sports friendly, hoping the next time we have a chance to host a game we take it...

[Go...gate]

All of the NEC playoff losses were on the opponents home field; the only NEC home game in the playoffs was a win (Wagner vs. Colgate).

And that was because, somehow, Colgate failed to put in a bid. That will not happen again.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

The lone Bucknell fan here may have a better suggestion in town, but your options are actually pretty decent for being in the middle of nowhere.

If you're looking to stay in a hotel, there are several options just 3 miles north of campus along Rt. 15: Radisson, Best Western, and Hampton Inn. The Country Cupboard has a good bakery, as well as a restaurant/buffet, and is in the middle of all three. There are plenty of other hotels along 15 between Selinsgrove and Lewisburg, as well. I stayed at the Best Western years ago when it was a family-run place. It was simple, but nice and clean, and just a short walk away from the Country Cupboard. There's also a sports bar right next door.

I have been on the road for the last week, so I missed your post. There are lots of motels there in Lewisburg, but also a few miles north on Route 15 in New Columbia, and south in Selinsgrove and Shamokin Dam. Bucknell has been hosting events like the PIAA Swimming Championships, so accommodations have been expanding. I think the Country Cupboard is a great suggestion- I try to grab at least one meal there each trip. I am going to Lewisburg in April and I am staying at All Suites Budget Host, coincidentally probably the closest to the stadium. If you can book one of the inns in the middle of town you will have that quaint small-town experience the Doc described.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The PL's Last 10 Playoff losses.

I was doing some research and this caught my attention. Every single loss has been decided by 10 points or more! Most of these games were complete mismatches and over by half time. Why is it that when the PL team loses they rarely go down swinging?

2010 Delaware 42 Lehigh 20
2011 NDSU 24 Lehigh 0
2012 Wagner 31 Colgate 20
2013 Towson 48 Fordham 28
2013 New Hampshire 45 Lafayette 7
2014 New Hampshire 44 Fordham 19
2015 Chattanooga 50 Fordham 20
2015 Sam Houston 48 Colgate 21
2016 New Hampshire 64 Lehigh 21
2017 Stony Brook 59 Lehigh 29

Average Score
Them 45.5 US 16.4

This is literally like saying, "I just looked at the teams that played at NDSU in the Fargodome, and boy, did they all suck!"

Trying to cast a parallel between the 2011 Lehigh team that beat Terrance West's Towson team on the road vs. the 2017 5-6 Lehigh team, or the 2016 Colgate team that was the very last team to beat JMU in Bridgeforth in the playoffs vs. a 5-6 Lafayette team is beyond stupid. I get that you seem to have seem to have convinced yourself that every Patriot League Champion over the past decade has sucked, but that simply isn't true. Maybe you and Southsider should stop sharing milkshakes at the diner.

The fact that the Patriot League hasn't had a team go to Frisco is for the following reasons:

1. Rules have been passed that have made it harder for the Patriot League to complete in football.
2. Schools haven't had the institutional will to fund or field teams that wish to be regionally dominant.
3. When schools have made the playoffs, they have chosen to forsake the opportunity to bid on even a single home playoff game.
4. Some schools fail to give enough care to their facilities to even be in consideration for a home playoff game, given that it is now too much of an ask to have a day playoff game to ESPN.

These four factors all together all but guarantee that Patriot League schools are shipped on the road in the playoffs. What that means is, even when genuinely great Patriot League teams (2011 Lehigh, 2013 Fordham, 2015 Colgate) make the playoffs and win, they eventually get shipped on the road to higher seeds. There is a way to avoid this: that's to care enough to make your program regionally dominant, and to get seeded in the playoffs yourself. But no Patriot League school has been able to crack this code. That's why Lehigh people are so cracked about losing to Monmouth. They know Monmouth has passed them on the way to regional dominance, and it drives them crazy.

Monmouth, incidentally, just spent money making a great stadium and a great game-day experience for their fans. It's no wonder they are regionally ascending.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

This is literally like saying, "I just looked at the teams that played at NDSU in the Fargodome, and boy, did they all suck!"

Trying to cast a parallel between the 2011 Lehigh team that beat Terrance West's Towson team on the road vs. the 2017 5-6 Lehigh team, or the 2016 Colgate team that was the very last team to beat JMU in Bridgeforth in the playoffs vs. a 5-6 Lafayette team is beyond stupid. I get that you seem to have seem to have convinced yourself that every Patriot League Champion over the past decade has sucked, but that simply isn't true. Maybe you and Southsider should stop sharing milkshakes at the diner.

The fact that the Patriot League hasn't had a team go to Frisco is for the following reasons:

1. Rules have been passed that have made it harder for the Patriot League to complete in football.
2. Schools haven't had the institutional will to fund or field teams that wish to be regionally dominant.
3. When schools have made the playoffs, they have chosen to forsake the opportunity to bid on even a single home playoff game.
4. Some schools fail to give enough care to their facilities to even be in consideration for a home playoff game, given that it is now too much of an ask to have a day playoff game to ESPN.

These four factors all together all but guarantee that Patriot League schools are shipped on the road in the playoffs. What that means is, even when genuinely great Patriot League teams (2011 Lehigh, 2013 Fordham, 2015 Colgate) make the playoffs and win, they eventually get shipped on the road to higher seeds. There is a way to avoid this: that's to care enough to make your program regionally dominant, and to get seeded in the playoffs yourself. But no Patriot League school has been able to crack this code. That's why Lehigh people are so cracked about losing to Monmouth. They know Monmouth has passed them on the way to regional dominance, and it drives them crazy.

Monmouth, incidentally, just spent money making a great stadium and a great game-day experience for their fans. It's no wonder they are regionally ascending.

LFN,

My point is not that the last 10 PL Champs all suck. Lehigh had a very good team in 2011. I often reference how good team that team/season was. The win over Towson was extremely satisfying. They actually played well against NDSU for 3.5 quarters. The failed fake FG and ensuing long NDSU TD drive ended any hope. GSU went in there the next week and got whooped up on far worse. Still, the end result was a 24-0 loss for Lehigh.

2013 Fordham was also very good and definitely relevant nationally. I've given them their respect as well. That was the Moorhead's best team in the Bronx.

I would not consider 2015 Colgate a "genuinely great" team. They finished the regular season 7-4 and unranked. They lost to Navy by 38 points, UNH at home by 18, Yale by 1 and Princeton by 24. They snuck by Georgetown (4 points), #11 Fordham (2 points), Lehigh with a 1st and goal stand and Bucknell by 4 points to close out the year. They did win two playoff games but it still doesn't all add up to a "great team" imo. JMU's performance with Withers in '15 looked like UCA's showing against UNH this year. Bottom line, there's no way they're in the same class at '11 Lehigh and '13 Fordham.

I don't see how anyone can say the performances, as whole, over the last several years is not underwhelming. There's been a couple of flashes but in general the PL is spinning its tires. I'm concerned that it's not going to get any better this year.

Like you said, things are stacked against the PL teams in the playoffs. But that's of their own doing. If they're not interested in seriously competing than I personally think they should explore other options. The results will speak for themselves.

[DFW HOYA]

I question the comment that "schools haven't had the institutional will to fund or field teams that wish to be regionally dominant." Six of seven PL schools rank in the top 17 in funding for football:

4. Fordham University ($7,060,178)
9. Lafayette College ($6,581,062)
11. College of the Holy Cross ($6,162,749)
13. Colgate University ($5,899,143)
14. Bucknell University ($5,672,257)
17. Lehigh University ($5,301,592 )

(FWIW, Monmouth is 24th.)

[CFBfan]

I question the comment that "schools haven't had the institutional will to fund or field teams that wish to be regionally dominant." Six of seven PL schools rank in the top 17 in funding for football:

4. Fordham University ($7,060,178)
9. Lafayette College ($6,581,062)
11. College of the Holy Cross ($6,162,749)
13. Colgate University ($5,899,143)
14. Bucknell University ($5,672,257)
17. Lehigh University ($5,301,592 )

(FWIW, Monmouth is 24th.)

Yup...again its all the head coach ie: joe moorehead

[PAllen]

I question the comment that "schools haven't had the institutional will to fund or field teams that wish to be regionally dominant." Six of seven PL schools rank in the top 17 in funding for football:

4. Fordham University ($7,060,178)
9. Lafayette College ($6,581,062)
11. College of the Holy Cross ($6,162,749)
13. Colgate University ($5,899,143)
14. Bucknell University ($5,672,257)
17. Lehigh University ($5,301,592 )

(FWIW, Monmouth is 24th.)

That has more to do with tuition and avg expenditure per student to attend than anything else.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

One issue the PL has faced is teams/programs being unable to really build off of the previous season's success.

Even with the '16 playoff flop, Lehigh had some positive vibes (Top 20 ranking) heading into the year. Then they collapsed in September as their defense was exposed as being historically bad. As a result they and the PL basically became the running joke of FCS (Haley iirc did a Stats article). Colgate headed in 2016 with some really good pub as well, more than last year's Lehigh team imo, but stumbled to start and ended with an "odd" 5-5 record. Fordham's best team (offensively, defensively, tenacity, health etc) was 2013. While '14, '15 and '15 were all good to near really good with Edmonds it never got better than Moorhead's second season imo. Losing 50-6 to 'Nova in the second game of the 2014 season killed the Rams national mojo. In 2015 their defense really started to fall apart.

The last team that lived up to, or exceed the previous season's success was 2011 Lehigh. They were a good team that played real hard (ala '15 Colgate) in 2010. In the end they were rewarded with a playoff win over a decent UNI team before falling to national runner-up Delaware the next week. Then in 2011 the Mountain Hawks become really explosive on offense, the defense was just as good, finished ranked in the Top 10 and Lum was the Payton Runner-up. They had a chance to win a playoff game, or two MAYBE, in 2012 but 10-1 with 2 years of national equity wasn't good enough for the opportunity.

The PL heads into 2018 with way more questions than answers. This will be year 3 (??) of full scholarships and there won't be a single PL team in the preseason Top 25. It will be the first time in how long that has happened? When you look at the schedules and coaching turnover there's reason to believe there won't be a team in the final regular season Top 25 either. One can hope that Holy Cross, Lafayette or Fordham hit on a coaching hire allowing one of them to turn the corner this year. Lehigh will be fighting for .500 until the defense proves itself. Colgate has some good pieces but they need to win OOC games. Then there's Bucknell and Georgetown. Those two aren't helping the league's reputation in 2018.

[DFW HOYA]

Those two aren't helping the league's reputation in 2018.

At this point, no one is helping the league's reputation in 2018.

[Neighbor2]

At this point, no one is helping the league's reputation in 2018.

EXACTLY! Not even the league is helping the league's reputation!

xlolx

[RichH2]

PL restrictions and visits with the way-way back machine :) aside, it is evident that PL teams have synced tgether in a down cycle over the last 2 years for various reasons enumerated repeatedly throughout this thread. I concede I am not as sanguine as most about the coming season. Fordham, Holy Cross anf Pards all have invested in young energetic head coaches. All 3 had good to excellent recruiting years. A start to moving their programs up. Lehigh and Colgate have better present foundations upon which to build. Lehigh must build a D to go with its magnificent offense. Colgate more well rounded heading into the season. A now veteran soph QB should spark their O.Bucknell a puzzle. Susan brought in a class emphasizing defense. Feeding his best unit. He may have finally found a QB in Earle. I still maintain that as the last 2 classes become upperclassmen teams will see better and stronger play. Not yet enough to be realistically projected to be title contenders but better than the last 2 years OOC.

[Bill]

PL restrictions and visits with the way-way back machine :) aside, it...

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=27138&stc=1

Back in the PL's "warm library league", RichH2, Neighbor2, GoLehigh TU Owl, and LFN reminisce of Lehigh's past glory. Not pictured: Carney about to throw Chernobyl on the controls...

[Go...gate]

I am cautiously optimistic for Colgate, though my optimism was tempered when I learned our AD Vicky Chun '91 was leaving. Colgate has to be careful with this hire. Vicky embraced and supported Colgate's athletic mission and every player in every sport knew it. We need someone like her to continue the momentum.

[Southsider]

This is literally like saying, "I just looked at the teams that played at NDSU in the Fargodome, and boy, did they all suck!"

Trying to cast a parallel between the 2011 Lehigh team that beat Terrance West's Towson team on the road vs. the 2017 5-6 Lehigh team, or the 2016 Colgate team that was the very last team to beat JMU in Bridgeforth in the playoffs vs. a 5-6 Lafayette team is beyond stupid. I get that you seem to have seem to have convinced yourself that every Patriot League Champion over the past decade has sucked, but that simply isn't true. Maybe you and Southsider should stop sharing milkshakes at the diner.

The fact that the Patriot League hasn't had a team go to Frisco is for the following reasons:

1. Rules have been passed that have made it harder for the Patriot League to complete in football.
2. Schools haven't had the institutional will to fund or field teams that wish to be regionally dominant.
3. When schools have made the playoffs, they have chosen to forsake the opportunity to bid on even a single home playoff game.
4. Some schools fail to give enough care to their facilities to even be in consideration for a home playoff game, given that it is now too much of an ask to have a day playoff game to ESPN.

These four factors all together all but guarantee that Patriot League schools are shipped on the road in the playoffs. What that means is, even when genuinely great Patriot League teams (2011 Lehigh, 2013 Fordham, 2015 Colgate) make the playoffs and win, they eventually get shipped on the road to higher seeds. There is a way to avoid this: that's to care enough to make your program regionally dominant, and to get seeded in the playoffs yourself. But no Patriot League school has been able to crack this code. That's why Lehigh people are so cracked about losing to Monmouth. They know Monmouth has passed them on the way to regional dominance, and it drives them crazy.

Monmouth, incidentally, just spent money making a great stadium and a great game-day experience for their fans. It's no wonder they are regionally ascending.

Really LFN? LU is poorly coached, and has been for a long time. The results speak for themselves. The difference is, myself, Owl, and others see it, you don't. While some of the PL rules are no doubt restrictive, they have nothing to do with toughness and grit. LU has neither. So, being the self-proclaimed authority of all things LU football, please tell me when that will change. And while your are at it, Men’s and Women’s BB can use some new direction too. The patterns of inconsistencies are similar to FB.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Really LFN? LU is poorly coached, and has been for a long time. The results speak for themselves. The difference is, myself, Owl, and others see it, you don't. While some of the PL rules are no doubt restrictive, they have nothing to do with toughness and grit. LU has neither. So, being the self-proclaimed authority of all things LU football, please tell me when that will change. And while your are at it, Men’s and Women’s BB can use some new direction too. The patterns of inconsistencies are similar to FB.

I don't think that Lehigh is "poorly coached" in terms of the team/program being terrible and there's no hope. Coen, aka the Mack Brown of the PL, has a lot of strengths. I think he really knows offense (players, coaches etc). I also think his offensive line background is also greatly underappreciated. If I'm correct Lehigh lost their OL coach to Harvard. Meh, they'll be fine with Coen being there to oversee the unit.

However, he has completely blown the defense. The downfall of the unit post Coach K has been literally historic. It destroyed the potential of the 2016 and 2017 teams. The fact that Coen didn't shake things up after 2015 or 2016 is still perplexing. On paper not much has truly changed this year either. I still see a major talent deficiency at DL and LB. Plus, it will be more or less be the same coaches coaching them.

It's frustrating to watch Lehigh bumble along the last 4-5 years because the potential is there for more. They don't have to sell their souls to be a legit Top 15 program in FCS football. They also don't need to toss a bunch more money at it. Just a little more TLC would go a long way.

[RichH2]

Really LFN? LU is poorly coached, and has been for a long time. The results speak for themselves. The difference is, myself, Owl, and others see it, you don't. While some of the PL rules are no doubt restrictive, they have nothing to do with toughness and grit. LU has neither. So, being the self-proclaimed authority of all things LU football, please tell me when that will change. And while your are at it, Men’s and Women’s BB can use some new direction too. The patterns of inconsistencies are similar to FB.
Well, I have been advised to duck for cover given my more optimistic prediction for PL progress :).
Southsider
It is not that some of us fail to see what you see. We all have delineated the issues facing the PL and Lehigh. Each and everyone of them has impacted to some degree to put Lehigh and the PL in their current positions. For you, poor coaching is the sole major issue for Lehigh's performance. Back to back PL Champs aside, I agree that our D for the last 4 years has been terrible. Coen has had 4 DCs and numerous staff changes without any success as of now. The current DC and most of the assts are going into their 2nd year. We'll see if this mix of coaches can elevate our D. We should remember that last year was 1st season of new D scheme. Plus, the back 8 had 1 experienced LB , a converted S and for most of the year had 4-5 frosh in the 2ndary. Not a formula for success or cosistency.
Back to back Champs of PL means little nationally given PL's lack of competitiveness in our OOC and the playoffs. This is the issue that LFN is addressing. Here is where the PL resrictions have and will continue to gamper our efforts to rebuild a national presence. How after 5 years of schollies is the PL so weak? IMO, the answer is simple. The 1st 3 classes of recruits , while with some top level talent, had more misses than hits.Hindsight shows that the learning curve for schollie recruiting was steeper for most than any of us anticipated. Go through our senior class of 26 for yourself. Some excellent players in Mayes, Bragalone etc but way too many players that have not succeeded, whether by injury or lack of developement. Coen has adjusted his recruiting startingvwith The junior class we are targetting better and using our schollies more effectively. The soph and new frosh classes are smaller with Andy awarding more full rides. You get more better players but lose depth. He is targetting more PWOs The sophs had 4, all of whom are tweeners size wise but most were also A-S players. He did the same this year. Lehigh in the unenviable position where most of its best athletes are underclassmen. Given the injuries a lot of them wound up starting on the OL,WR and 2ndary. No doubt it will help us this year particularly on defense. Heck, we had a 17 yr old kid playing Rover last year.
Upcoming season will be interesting. Lehigh O will be good, if not quite as dominant as last year. Defense? Expect it will improve. Enough to be good? Possibly , if we can finish tackles and find an effective DL. Last year I was hopeing for a Title. Got that. A winning record this year.
Pretty much agree owl. Since Coach K we've had a dual DC, fired 1 then just 1 DC, demoted him and brought Botts back, semi retired him and promoted Sutyak.for last year. Over the latter part of that period we had a total overhaul of assts , other than DL. Sutyak changed D scheme. New to staff and players. Did not go well. DL did little on LOS. Both starting LBs were coverted Ss. Rover was split between a soph S and a frosh.Veteran 2ndary that did not last 1/2 the season. At the end of the season we had 8 frosh in the 2 deep with 4-5 starting. Not a mix for a staunch D. Last year was the worst D I have ever seen at Lehigh. A trial by fire that just never got better. Coming into this year, some plusses. Holy Cross DC is now the LB coach .We return all 5 LBs that saw the field.The 2 frosh give me hope. Jones, Montgomery and McCloskey back from injuries. In addition we have all4 frosh who showed well. Rover returns both the soph and frosh starters. None of this is a guarantee of a better D but does make it possible. Perhaps the best hope for our DL is the return of Kircher and Prendergast from injury and the addition of Rybka and Markus.
Will this staff be better? Sutyak now in 2nd year and I truly think he will mold this D. Enough? Dont know.

[Lehigh'98]

Apparently Lehigh has hired Mike Kashurba, former DC at Holy Cross, to be a defensive coach. Sutyak remains the DC. Don't know anything about him though. Lehigh is in for a rough 2018 campaign imo.

[CFBfan]

I am cautiously optimistic for Colgate, though my optimism was tempered when I learned our AD Vicky Chun '91 was leaving. Colgate has to be careful with this hire. Vicky embraced and supported Colgate's athletic mission and every player in every sport knew it. We need someone like her to continue the momentum.

Gate has a Prez that's pro sports.....big plus!

[RichH2]

Apparently Lehigh has hired Mike Kashurba, former DC at Holy Cross, to be a defensive coach. Sutyak remains the DC. Don't know anything about him though. Lehigh is in for a rough 2018 campaign imo.
He was DC at Allegheny then to Bucknell as a D asst before Cross. While Crusaders were limited athletically on D at too many spots they were always well coached. Always in position. They were just so slow. A positive hire for Sutyak.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Lehigh has had some great assistant coaches - I don't think that's up for any sort of debate.

Cecchini --> head coach at Valpo
Marino --> poached by Harvard
Kotulski --> Stanford, Vandy
Folmar --> poached by Elon
Stovall --> Valpo, then Columbia

Fordham has had a poaching problem as well, with Moorhead getting hired as OC of Penn State and then Breiner getting hired by Moorhead at Mississippi State.

I can't speak for the other five schools, but at Lehigh and Fordham, a question that needs to be asked is, how do we find and retain high-quality assistants? Andy's record of hiring assistants has run the gamut from the tremendous (Folmar) to the disastrous (Trey Brown). And the last few years has seen a lot of churn in Lehigh's coaching staff in general. Part of that came from Valpo's hiring of Cecchini, but not all.

[RichH2]

Lehigh has had some great assistant coaches - I don't think that's up for any sort of debate.

Cecchini --> head coach at Valpo
Marino --> poached by Harvard
Kotulski --> Stanford, Vandy
Folmar --> poached by Elon
Stovall --> Valpo, then Columbia

Fordham has had a poaching problem as well, with Moorhead getting hired as OC of Penn State and then Breiner getting hired by Moorhead at Mississippi State.

I can't speak for the other five schools, but at Lehigh and Fordham, a question that needs to be asked is, how do we find and retain high-quality assistants? Andy's record of hiring assistants has run the gamut from the tremendous (Folmar) to the disastrous (Trey Brown). And the last few years has seen a lot of churn in Lehigh's coaching staff in general. Part of that came from Valpo's hiring of Cecchini, but not all.

Two issues here.
1. Money. Assts in the PL dont make much at all. We are not even competitive with CAA level leagues much less FBS teams. Ivies , at least HYP , clearly offer more pay for OL coaches.
2. Status. We are an academic FCS league. Ambitious talented coaches are not looking at the PL as a destination but merely as a stepping stone to better jobs and more money.
We cant really alter our status but if we want to keep coaches we have to raise the salaries. Wont stop coaches from seeking opportunities with FBS teams but we may keep some longer. Heck, look at Lembo he makes close to double Coen's salary and he is an asst coach.

[Doc QB]

I can't speak for the other five schools, but at Lehigh and Fordham, a question that needs to be asked is, how do we find and retain high-quality assistants? Andy's record of hiring assistants has run the gamut from the tremendous (Folmar) to the disastrous (Trey Brown). And the last few years has seen a lot of churn in Lehigh's coaching staff in general. Part of that came from Valpo's hiring of Cecchini, but not all.

Its all about cash and support. The other thread that details spending becomes relevant here with some simple math. Subtract the huge cost of 60 full tuition/room/board scholarships. Subtract it from the total. You get an idea of what is left, and my guess is that it is quite low compared to other programs. Obviously, if a program has 63 scholarships, a bunch of instate kids that are less costly, and a lower total budget, it may appear they are spending less, but they have more cash leftover after scholarships for assistant salaries and this is where there is potentially a huge divide among programs.

Lehigh does not pay their lower assistants very well. It is why we have have pretty much raided Franklin and Marshall of their assistants over Andy's tenure. Good guys I am sure, but if they were not coordinators there, they were part-timers...that's how Div III is run. Now they are PL coaches. If they are good, they move up rank at LU, and many move on. If they are average, they stay put, and we have crap defenses year after year.

Look at UNH, UD, Dartmouth, JMU, Columbia, UPenn to name a few. Check their coaching rosters. They have coordinators who were head coaches, position coaches who were coordinators. Any they are mostly from other FCS/FBS programs. We are littered with DIII coaches. Are we really surprised to see a defense struggle so tremendously year after year if we have not significantly improved our asst coaches? It takes cash. The Football Partnership raises a bunch for the program. I think it should be entirely earmarked for asst salaries if not already. Even $100K would go a long way to bolster the package of getting improved LB, DB, and special teams coaches. And that is a small portion of the budget overall. Thirty grand more per coaching position isn't that hard to do. Maybe Andy already did it, and it is how he landed Kashurba after he was let go at HC. At least I hope that is the trend.

[RichH2]

Its all about cash and support. The other thread that details spending becomes relevant here with some simple math. Subtract the huge cost of 60 full tuition/room/board scholarships. Subtract it from the total. You get an idea of what is left, and my guess is that it is quite low compared to other programs. Obviously, if a program has 63 scholarships, a bunch of instate kids that are less costly, and a lower total budget, it may appear they are spending less, but they have more cash leftover after scholarships for assistant salaries and this is where there is potentially a huge divide among programs.

Lehigh does not pay their lower assistants very well. It is why we have have pretty much raided Franklin and Marshall of their assistants over Andy's tenure. Good guys I am sure, but if they were not coordinators there, they were part-timers...that's how Div III is run. Now they are PL coaches. If they are good, they move up rank at LU, and many move on. If they are average, they stay put, and we have crap defenses year after year.

Look at UNH, UD, Dartmouth, JMU, Columbia, UPenn to name a few. Check their coaching rosters. They have coordinators who were head coaches, position coaches who were coordinators. Any they are mostly from other FCS/FBS programs. We are littered with DIII coaches. Are we really surprised to see a defense struggle so tremendously year after year if we have not significantly improved our asst coaches? It takes cash. The Football Partnership raises a bunch for the program. I think it should be entirely earmarked for asst salaries if not already. Even $100K would go a long way to bolster the package of getting improved LB, DB, and special teams coaches. And that is a small portion of the budget overall. Thirty grand more per coaching position isn't that hard to do. Maybe Andy already did it, and it is how he landed Kashurba after he was let go at HC. At least I hope that is the trend.

My guess is he is getting Botts' money. I hope you are right about the trend. The "low pay" assistants are usually guys just starting out in the profession. Turnover is expected. It seems to me that given his budget restriction he has to look for the best he can find from D2 and 3. Whether Joe can get more money for salaries from the University is rather a dead issue given that his overall budget has not really increased. It would be great if the Parthership could fund increases for at least some asst coaches. That may be the only viable option.

[RichH2]

Its all about cash and support. The other thread that details spending becomes relevant here with some simple math. Subtract the huge cost of 60 full tuition/room/board scholarships. Subtract it from the total. You get an idea of what is left, and my guess is that it is quite low compared to other programs. Obviously, if a program has 63 scholarships, a bunch of instate kids that are less costly, and a lower total budget, it may appear they are spending less, but they have more cash leftover after scholarships for assistant salaries and this is where there is potentially a huge divide among programs.

Lehigh does not pay their lower assistants very well. It is why we have have pretty much raided Franklin and Marshall of their assistants over Andy's tenure. Good guys I am sure, but if they were not coordinators there, they were part-timers...that's how Div III is run. Now they are PL coaches. If they are good, they move up rank at LU, and many move on. If they are average, they stay put, and we have crap defenses year after year.

Look at UNH, UD, Dartmouth, JMU, Columbia, UPenn to name a few. Check their coaching rosters. They have coordinators who were head coaches, position coaches who were coordinators. Any they are mostly from other FCS/FBS programs. We are littered with DIII coaches. Are we really surprised to see a defense struggle so tremendously year after year if we have not significantly improved our asst coaches? It takes cash. The Football Partnership raises a bunch for the program. I think it should be entirely earmarked for asst salaries if not already. Even $100K would go a long way to bolster the package of getting improved LB, DB, and special teams coaches. And that is a small portion of the budget overall. Thirty grand more per coaching position isn't that hard to do. Maybe Andy already did it, and it is how he landed Kashurba after he was let go at HC. At least I hope that is the trend.

Does seem to be trending Doc. Andy hired Jeremy Bandy as the new OL coach. He comes from Harvard where he was the OL coach and run game coordinator for the last 6 years
It seems Lehigh and Harvard just traded their OL coaches :)
Coach Bandy has an impressive resume. Quite similar to that of Coach Kashurba. Also an asst at Alleghenny then OL coach at Holy Cross prior to Harvard.

[RichH2]

I noticed that Garrett has lost 5=6 assts according to Pard board. Assts moving on is normal this time of year. So many leaving in Garrett's 2nd year. Any ideas why?

[Franks Tanks]

I noticed that Garrett has lost 5=6 assts according to Pard board. Assts moving on is normal this time of year. So many leaving in Garrett's 2nd year. Any ideas why?

No. FWIW most of Garrett’s staff were jr members of FBS staffs rather than guys from lower levels.

Not sure where everyone went, but those of which I am aware have left for opportunities that certainly pay more. Agree the sheer number of defections in greater than normal, and I have no inside info, but it is possible that guys just left for better jobs as he brought in a bunch of young and ambitious assistants.

This is not a positive, but I don’t but into some of the theories on our board.

By the way 3 of Garrett’s recruits were named to the big 33 game. I don’t think we had 3 guys on that team in the last 20 years.

[RichH2]

No. FWIW most of Garrett’s staff were jr members of FBS staffs rather than guys from lower levels.

Not sure where everyone went, but those of which I am aware have left for opportunities that certainly pay more. Agree the sheer number of defections in greater than normal, and I have no inside info, but it is possible that guys just left for better jobs as he brought in a bunch of young and ambitious assistants.

This is not a positive, but I don’t but into some of the theories on our board.

By the way 3 of Garrett’s recruits were named to the big 33 game. I don’t think we had 3 guys on that team in the last 20 years.
Thanks FT. A negative only due to numbers. You hire good coaches in the PL they move on and up. Congrats on Big33. Tossup who has best class you or Fordham. Congrats.

[DFW HOYA]

Revisiting an old LFN column and posing this question--was Tim Murphy right?

In October, that site posted a quote by the Harvard head coach, with this observation: "I don’t think the quality of the programs is that much different than it was five or 10 years ago...I think a lot of kids on the Patriot League teams now would have been on the same teams if they didn’t have scholarships."

A contrary view from LFN: "All loosening the old needs-based restriction on football scholarships did was to enlarge the pool of possible football recruits available to Patriot League schools... I am certain that scholarships have allowed Patriot League schools to recruit student-athletes they would not have otherwise been able to realistically recruit."

I'm not sure both can be correct. Are there players outside the admissions pool that are carrying PL teams upward, or are there simply too many kids with the imprimatur of "scholarship athlete" that connotes a better player by default, if not by result?

[RichH2]

Revisiting an old LFN column and posing this question--was Tim Murphy right?

In October, that site posted a quote by the Harvard head coach, with this observation: "I don’t think the quality of the programs is that much different than it was five or 10 years ago...I think a lot of kids on the Patriot League teams now would have been on the same teams if they didn’t have scholarships."

A contrary view from LFN: "All loosening the old needs-based restriction on football scholarships did was to enlarge the pool of possible football recruits available to Patriot League schools... I am certain that scholarships have allowed Patriot League schools to recruit student-athletes they would not have otherwise been able to realistically recruit."

I'm not sure both can be correct. Are there players outside the admissions pool that are carrying PL teams upward, or are there simply too many kids with the imprimatur of "scholarship athlete" that connotes a better player by default, if not by result?
In this case they likely can be . It is the timing that determines the opinion. Last year, if you looked just at the seniors and juniors Murphy pretty accurate. Look to the sops and frosh and the numbers of recruits that would not have been here preschollie increased markedly particularly in last year's frosh and this years commits.

[DFW HOYA]

In this case they likely can be . It is the timing that determines the opinion. Last year, if you looked just at the seniors and juniors Murphy pretty accurate. Look to the sops and frosh and the numbers of recruits that would not have been here preschollie increased markedly particularly in last year's frosh and this years commits.

That's why I am not sure. If the caliber of kids is increasing at other schools, the results aren't there.

Over at the non-scholarship side of the pool, the results aren't there either. With all the losses on Georgetown's offense, it was able to sign just one RB, who chose Georgetown over Bucknell and five PFL schools.

Georgetown may have as many as 60 players on its 2018 roster as freshmen or sophomores. That's not a good number.

[RichH2]

That's why I am not sure. If the caliber of kids is increasing at other schools, the results aren't there.

Over at the non-scholarship side of the pool, the results aren't there either. With all the losses on Georgetown's offense, it was able to sign just one RB, who chose Georgetown over Bucknell and five PFL schools.

Georgetown may have as many as 60 players on its 2018 roster as freshmen or sophomores. That's not a good number.
Agreed that it is not easy to have competitive teams with such a huge imbalance between upper and lower classmen. The problem for the rest of us is similar in nature if not numbers. Too much of our talent are underclassmen. Colgate should be the favorite. Hunt has a more balanced squad than any other PL team. But, not overwhelmingly so. Lafayette, Holy Cross and Fordham have remarkable recruit classes. Lehigh a smaller class but also quite good. The next 2-3 years will be very interesting.

[van]

Revisiting an old LFN column and posing this question--was Tim Murphy right?

In October, that site posted a quote by the Harvard head coach, with this observation: "I don’t think the quality of the programs is that much different than it was five or 10 years ago...I think a lot of kids on the Patriot League teams now would have been on the same teams if they didn’t have scholarships."

A contrary view from LFN: "All loosening the old needs-based restriction on football scholarships did was to enlarge the pool of possible football recruits available to Patriot League schools... I am certain that scholarships have allowed Patriot League schools to recruit student-athletes they would not have otherwise been able to realistically recruit."

I'm not sure both can be correct. Are there players outside the admissions pool that are carrying PL teams upward, or are there simply too many kids with the imprimatur of "scholarship athlete" that connotes a better player by default, if not by result?

I contend both are right, a "lot of kids" are the same and a few "would not have otherwise been able" to recruit, I believe we are now getting 2 to 4 kids per class that we would not have gotten before, I guess the big question is how much better are these few guys, based on results on the field to date maybe not so much better, but as Rich notes that may be changing with the last two classes of recruits at Lehigh, I certainly hope so

[RichH2]

I contend both are right, a "lot of kids" are the same and a few "would not have otherwise been able" to recruit, I believe we are now getting 2 to 4 kids per class that we would not have gotten before, I guess the big question is how much better are these few guys, based on results on the field to date maybe not so much better, but as Rich notes that may be changing with the last two classes of recruits at Lehigh, I certainly hope so

Only the future will tell how good any class is to be.I've seen WOs become all PL players and highly touted recruits disappear.
Anyway Lehigh' current roster. My opinion based on live offers commits had and to a lesser extent where they lived.
1st number are those with FBS offers, 2nd are those with CAA,SoCon Big South or HYP offers.

Senior.
3 and 2
Junior
3 and 4
Sophomore
3 and 6
Freshmen
6 and 3
I did not include other players with just PL and or other Ivy offers.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

First, here's a link to my original post.

https://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2017/10/an-lfn-investigation-whats-wrong-with.html


In parallel to the scholarship decision came a new restriction that, in my opinion, may be affecting the schools of the Patriot League much more.

"The Patriot League will begin using instant replay for basketball and reduce the size of football rosters in future seasons," the Patriot League Council of Presidents announced back in 2012. "According to the league, football roster sizes will be reduced in the future. The maximum roster sizes will be set at 95 players in 2013, 92 in 2014 and 90 in 2016."


It seemed like a small move at the time, perhaps a cost-saving or competition measure to accommodate a football scholarship world. But it doesn't seem like the League thought of the ramifications of that decision fully.

My thesis was this: As the Patriot League allowed full-aid scholarships, the overall roster size was shrunk to 90. You may think, "hey, that's no big deal", but I contest it is a big deal.

In the past, Patriot League schools didn't have a roster limit, but all of their aid was needs-tested. What this practically meant was, if a kid went through the financial aid office and they determined that they could pay 100%, or half, or none, the summary of all of this aid had to equal 63 equivalent scholarships. For many kids, this acted as a scholarship, but not all.

But now our scholarships are more in line with how they are done elsewhere. What used to sometimes be two half scholarships, going through the financial aid office, became one nationally recruited athlete. At the same time, walk-ons became true walk-ons, and we lost 10 of those players on the roster.

This has wrecked depth across the Patriot League in two ways. First, if you lose one nationally-recruited athlete, you may only have a true walk-on backing them up - when in the past, we might have a half-scholarship, means-tested guy out there instead. Second, the smaller roster sizes mean that there are fewer bodies in there during practice making the team better.

Of course, other FCS schools navigate these types of issues as well. Looking at Villanova, to take an example, they had a home playing roster of 92 athletes (when I checked).

This year, looking at Lehigh/Lafayette Lehigh listed 81 players on their numerical roster for the 152nd, and that included the injured players (of which there were at least three). That is down from 86 players on Lehigh 2013 Lehigh/Lafayette roster. It may not seem like a big deal to have five fewer walk-ons on the squad, but I contend these are enormous issues, and especially when playing against Villanova on the road (11 fewer athletes to choose from) and, increasingly, Ivy League and NEC schools (sometimes as many as 30).

Furthermore, I am not sure why these limited roster sizes are necessary. Patriot League schools are still subject to a self-imposed 60 scholarship limit, so what is the point? Schools can't go past that limit for the league or FCS. Is it a Title IX issue? (Possibly.) But there has never been any explanation given, and it makes for a huge disadvantage, IMO, to other FCS schools, especially the Ivies. The Ivies have no roster limits, and can afford to "scholarship" almost everyone who makes it through admissions. It's no wonder they've caught up.

[van]

I thought that walk ons could receive aid as long as they were not recruited and the aid was not a athletic scholarship

[RichH2]

I thought that walk ons could receive aid as long as they were not recruited and the aid was not a athletic scholarship
PL did have an exception for up to 3 but it was repealed in Aug. I really am not sure now about where WOs fit. Under NCAA rules they dont count so long as they are not "recruited". PL says ALL aid to players counts vs cap. I suppose it could be interpreted as "players" refers to only recruited players. I dont think PL does that. I have to reread the bylaws again.

[Go...gate]

Agree that roster limits should be relaxed.

[van]

if they relax roster limits, but walk on aid counts toward 60, then that will be no help at all

[RichH2]

if they relax roster limits, but walk on aid counts toward 60, then that will be no help at all
Absolutely. Cap has no purpose that I can fathom. Theoretically it saves some money by perhaps lessening insurance costs and additional uniforms :). Having one or not having one means has no significance under our rule applying all aid to the schollie cap.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

if they relax roster limits, but walk on aid counts toward 60, then that will be no help at all

Agree. And exactly what is this trying to prevent?

[DFW HOYA]

The Ivies have no roster limits, and can afford to "scholarship" almost everyone who makes it through admissions. It's no wonder they've caught up.

The NEC has caught up too and they offer fewer than 60 grants. I think it's more about admissions than roster sizes.

[RichH2]

The NEC has caught up too and they offer fewer than 60 grants. I think it's more about admissions than roster sizes.

No doubt. A bigger pool of admissible players. Caveat tho NEC offers 45 schollies plus need aid up to 63 NCAA max. NEC has a bigger pool and much more flexibility in packaging aid to maximize their 45 schollies.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

No doubt. A bigger pool of admissible players. Caveat tho NEC offers 45 schollies plus need aid up to 63 NCAA max. NEC has a bigger pool and much more flexibility in packaging aid to maximize their 45 schollies.

Rich there's MANY things that are limiting the league's ability to reach its potential. Whether it be Redshirts, AI, Roster Size, Lack of Transfers, Coaching pay, Scheduling, Budget issues, Facilities etc there's an issue with the PL tying one hand behind its back and trying to keep relevancy nationally. You simply can't point to one factor. It's a cumulative affect of everything.....

I would love to learn more about San Diego and how they operate in the PFL. They're similar to what the best non-scholarship PL teams use to be but without the history.

The NEC still hasn't passed the PL. It's gained ground but they're still struggling more against the power conferences than the PL is. Give it another 2-3 years and maybe they too will be better than our grand old league....

[RichH2]

Rich there's MANY things that are limiting the league's ability to reach its potential. Whether it be Redshirts, AI, Roster Size, Lack of Transfers, Coaching pay, Scheduling, Budget issues, Facilities etc there's an issue with the PL tying one hand behind its back and trying to keep relevancy nationally. You simply can't point to one factor. It's a cumulative affect of everything.....

I would love to learn more about San Diego and how they operate in the PFL. They're similar to what the best non-scholarship PL teams use to be but without the history.

The NEC still hasn't passed the PL. It's gained ground but they're still struggling more against the power conferences than the PL is. Give it another 2-3 years and maybe they too will be better than our grand old league....

Roster cap is meaningless. The actual cap on the roster is that all aid from whatever source applies to the 60 schollie cap. Basically only permits full pay WOs.
All of the other issues you cite are factors that are self imposed and will always limit our ability to consistently compete nationally. Doubt we will ever be without the AI. We have to address the other restrictions if we ever hope to compete outside our conference.
Not saying NEC has passed us but they are in a much more advantageous position to grow than the PL is right now.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Roster cap is meaningless. The actual cap on the roster is that all aid from whatever source applies to the 60 schollie cap. Basically only permits full pay WOs.
All of the other issues you cite are factors that are self imposed and will always limit our ability to consistently compete nationally. Doubt we will ever be without the AI. We have to address the other restrictions if we ever hope to compete outside our conference.
Not saying NEC has passed us but they are in a much more advantageous position to grow than the PL is right now.

I'm not sure the NEC is in the more advantageous spot. They have facility issues (Wagner, Duquesne and even the best stadiums are nothing more than "ok"), budget issues (especially CCSU) while lacking any real historical identity. They've seem to be more open about transfers and 5th year guys but that can only carry them so far. This isn't to say they can't have a legit Top 20 team here an there but I don't expect that to be a the norm. The PL SHOULD have a Top 25 team every year and have a legit Top 5/10 team every 3-4 (class cycle) seasons.

I think the biggest issues are..
1. No Redshirting - Early in the year it's huge! The experience that 5th year guys give you, especially in the trenches, is invaluable. The lack of them is why I really don't like anything more than tomato can type FBS games for the PL. Fewer scholarships/less depth and hardly any 5th year guys is not a winning recipe against even marginal FBS programs....
2. Budgets - It seems like the scholarship money has really cut into the ability to attract top-flight assistants. Quality coaching that instills a high football IQ can go a long to towards winning and limiting injuries. Also, going on the road in the playoffs virtually all the time is horrible. Don't be so cheap when you have money. These are extremely modest expenses.
3. Complacency - Allowing Tavani and Gilmore to hang around too long zapped the life out of Lafayette and HC football. Having Lehigh do very little to improve the defense has been brutal, Georgetown being Georgetown stinks, Fordham not taking that next step hurt, Bucknell playing second fiddle to Lewisburg HS in their own stadium while everyone in orange waits for bball season doesn't help and Colgate trying to figure out how to blend 1965 and 2018 into one season makes it tough to excel imo.

[RichH2]

I'm not sure the NEC is in the more advantageous spot. They have facility issues (Wagner, Duquesne and even the best stadiums are nothing more than "ok"), budget issues (especially CCSU) while lacking any real historical identity. They've seem to be more open about transfers and 5th year guys but that can only carry them so far. This isn't to say they can't have a legit Top 20 team here an there but I don't expect that to be a the norm. The PL SHOULD have a Top 25 team every year and have a legit Top 5/10 team every 3-4 (class cycle) seasons.

I think the biggest issues are..
1. No Redshirting - Early in the year it's huge! The experience that 5th year guys give you, especially in the trenches, is invaluable. The lack of them is why I really don't like anything more than tomato can type FBS games for the PL. Fewer scholarships/less depth and hardly any 5th year guys is not a winning recipe against even marginal FBS programs....
2. Budgets - It seems like the scholarship money has really cut into the ability to attract top-flight assistants. Quality coaching that instills a high football IQ can go a long to towards winning and limiting injuries. Also, going on the road in the playoffs virtually all the time is horrible. Don't be so cheap when you have money. These are extremely modest expenses.
3. Complacency - Allowing Tavani and Gilmore to hang around too long zapped the life out of Lafayette and HC football. Having Lehigh do very little to improve the defense has been brutal, Georgetown being Georgetown stinks, Fordham not taking that next step hurt, Bucknell playing second fiddle to Lewisburg HS in their own stadium while everyone in orange waits for bball season doesn't help and Colgate trying to figure out how to blend 1965 and 2018 into one season makes it tough to excel imo.
Agreed

[DFW HOYA]

3. Complacency - Allowing Tavani and Gilmore to hang around too long zapped the life out of Lafayette and HC football. Having Lehigh do very little to improve the defense has been brutal, Georgetown being Georgetown stinks, Fordham not taking that next step hurt, Bucknell playing second fiddle to Lewisburg HS in their own stadium while everyone in orange waits for bball season doesn't help and Colgate trying to figure out how to blend 1965 and 2018 into one season makes it tough to excel imo.

"Allowing Tavani and Gilmore to hang around too long zapped the life out of Lafayette and HC football.": Tavani's extended stay is on Bruce McCutcheon. If he had moved to not extend Tavani and get him to retire after the 2013 title, Tavani goes out as a hero and not on a rail.

The life was zapped out of HC long before Gilmore. HC had two winning seasons in the 12 combined years of Vaas and Allen. Gilmore had seven winning seasons through 2011 but only one in his last six. It's discouraging, but I think the Holy Cross football brand has been consistently devalued through the years, almost to the point where recruits see HC as closer fit to a Georgetown than a Villanova, a program who once was in HC's rear view mirror. Hard to believe, but the Cru has just one PL title since 1992.

"Having Lehigh do very little to improve the defense": Talent or teaching? The defensive slide has been going on for a while, and I wonder if Lehigh just isn't getting the caliber of defensive recruits vis a vis other schools in the scholarship era. Not that Lehigh kids aren't any good, but maybe the gap isn't what it was.

"Georgetown being Georgetown stinks:" Easier said than solutions proffered. Rob Sgarlata can't walk into the GU Board of Directors asking for another $3 million a year just so he can be competitive with Bucknell and Lafayette. That's not a winning argument, especially when you've lost 18 of your last 19. The lack of talent, particularly on offense, is striking, which is why Sgarlata is likely to catch some heat in 2018. Sgarlata is 8-25 after year three with a 0-11 or 1-10 season within range in 2018, and it's not about coaching. Longer-term (and more serious) question: Can Georgetown remain in the PL and create a winning program?

"Fordham not taking that next step hurt": Does Fordham want to take that next step? Hard to say. Its future schedule is great on body-bag games when it should be reaching out for some serious inter-conference games, as Lehigh once tried to do. Fordham-Sam Houston or Fordham-NDSU might be more valuable down the road than collecting a check versus Charlotte or Hawaii. It's also taken no steps on upgrading Jack Coffey Field or any all-season practice facility as HC has done.

"Bucknell playing second fiddle to Lewisburg HS in their own stadium everyone in orange waits for bball season doesn't help": The Bison have won one football title in 22 years versus seven of the last nine in basketball. Fans go where the talent is.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Coen spoke with Steve Degler for a 3-5 minutes during halftime of the Lehigh-Lafayette bball game.

A few things
- He said he plans on having only 50 or so guys available for spring practice. Why so few?
- He spoke very little about the defense other than saying "if you watched us last year you saw it wasn't very good" and he hopes the hiring of Kashurba (spelling?) improves the unit.
- Sasha Kelsey will be back for a 5th year
- Coen just seems a little "off" still. He talked rather slowly and stumbled over his thoughts a few times. It's like he wanted to be more specific but he couldn't think of the words to use. If anyone gets the chance watch the replay.

[van]

Coen spoke with Steve Degler for a 3-5 minutes during halftime of the Lehigh-Lafayette bball game.

A few things
- He said he plans on having only 50 or so guys available for spring practice. Why so few?
- He spoke very little about the defense other than saying "if you watched us last year you saw it wasn't very good" and he hopes the hiring of Kashurba (spelling?) improves the unit.
- Sasha Kelsey will be back for a 5th year
- Coen just seems a little "off" still. He talked rather slowly and stumbled over his thoughts a few times. It's like he wanted to be more specific but he couldn't think of the words to use. If anyone gets the chance watch the replay.

50 or so seems surprising, 69 +1 should be returning if no defections, usually a fair amount held out of spring due to injuries (or academics) but unless 50 or so means 59, I don't get it either

agree that Coen seemed a bit off to me also, although he was more like himself in the facebook interview a few days ago

[Sader87]

"Allowing Tavani and Gilmore to hang around too long zapped the life out of Lafayette and HC football.": Tavani's extended stay is on Bruce McCutcheon. If he had moved to not extend Tavani and get him to retire after the 2013 title, Tavani goes out as a hero and not on a rail.

The life was zapped out of HC long before Gilmore. HC had two winning seasons in the 12 combined years of Vaas and Allen. Gilmore had seven winning seasons through 2011 but only one in his last six. It's discouraging, but I think the Holy Cross football brand has been consistently devalued through the years, almost to the point where recruits see HC as closer fit to a Georgetown than a Villanova, a program who once was in HC's rear view mirror. Hard to believe, but the Cru has just one PL title since 1992.

"Having Lehigh do very little to improve the defense": Talent or teaching? The defensive slide has been going on for a while, and I wonder if Lehigh just isn't getting the caliber of defensive recruits vis a vis other schools in the scholarship era. Not that Lehigh kids aren't any good, but maybe the gap isn't what it was.

"Georgetown being Georgetown stinks:" Easier said than solutions proffered. Rob Sgarlata can't walk into the GU Board of Directors asking for another $3 million a year just so he can be competitive with Bucknell and Lafayette. That's not a winning argument, especially when you've lost 18 of your last 19. The lack of talent, particularly on offense, is striking, which is why Sgarlata is likely to catch some heat in 2018. Sgarlata is 8-25 after year three with a 0-11 or 1-10 season within range in 2018, and it's not about coaching. Longer-term (and more serious) question: Can Georgetown remain in the PL and create a winning program?

"Fordham not taking that next step hurt": Does Fordham want to take that next step? Hard to say. Its future schedule is great on body-bag games when it should be reaching out for some serious inter-conference games, as Lehigh once tried to do. Fordham-Sam Houston or Fordham-NDSU might be more valuable down the road than collecting a check versus Charlotte or Hawaii. It's also taken no steps on upgrading Jack Coffey Field or any all-season practice facility as HC has done.

"Bucknell playing second fiddle to Lewisburg HS in their own stadium everyone in orange waits for bball season doesn't help": The Bison have won one football title in 22 years versus seven of the last nine in basketball. Fans go where the talent is.

Hmmmm....I wondah why?

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown posted its 2018 roster. Five seniors, including QB Clay Norris and RB Christian Bermudez, not returning.

54 on the spring roster. Overall roster size for 2018 stands at 82:
Sr: 17
Jr: 13
So: 24
Fr: 28

Hoyas return five offensive and six defensive starters from its 1-10 team in 2017.

[RichH2]

Coen spoke with Steve Degler for a 3-5 minutes during halftime of the Lehigh-Lafayette bball game.

A few things
- He said he plans on having only 50 or so guys available for spring practice. Why so few?
- He spoke very little about the defense other than saying "if you watched us last year you saw it wasn't very good" and he hopes the hiring of Kashurba (spelling?) improves the unit.
- Sasha Kelsey will be back for a 5th year
- Coen just seems a little "off" still. He talked rather slowly and stumbled over his thoughts a few times. It's like he wanted to be more specific but he couldn't think of the words to use. If anyone gets the chance watch the replay.
He did seem hestant. Did seem he was trying not to say too much. Well we have 65 +1 on the roster for Spring. I know there are some still rehabbing. Perhaps some relegated to the books.
Andy never says much of substance about the D. Even saying that we werent very good almost amounts to an ultimatum coming from him;). Hope it is.
Great that Sashe back. Hope he can have 1 injury free season.

[PAllen]

"Allowing Tavani and Gilmore to hang around too long zapped the life out of Lafayette and HC football.": Tavani's extended stay is on Bruce McCutcheon. If he had moved to not extend Tavani and get him to retire after the 2013 title, Tavani goes out as a hero and not on a rail.

The life was zapped out of HC long before Gilmore. HC had two winning seasons in the 12 combined years of Vaas and Allen. Gilmore had seven winning seasons through 2011 but only one in his last six. It's discouraging, but I think the Holy Cross football brand has been consistently devalued through the years, almost to the point where recruits see HC as closer fit to a Georgetown than a Villanova, a program who once was in HC's rear view mirror. Hard to believe, but the Cru has just one PL title since 1992.

"Having Lehigh do very little to improve the defense": Talent or teaching? The defensive slide has been going on for a while, and I wonder if Lehigh just isn't getting the caliber of defensive recruits vis a vis other schools in the scholarship era. Not that Lehigh kids aren't any good, but maybe the gap isn't what it was.

"Georgetown being Georgetown stinks:" Easier said than solutions proffered. Rob Sgarlata can't walk into the GU Board of Directors asking for another $3 million a year just so he can be competitive with Bucknell and Lafayette. That's not a winning argument, especially when you've lost 18 of your last 19. The lack of talent, particularly on offense, is striking, which is why Sgarlata is likely to catch some heat in 2018. Sgarlata is 8-25 after year three with a 0-11 or 1-10 season within range in 2018, and it's not about coaching. Longer-term (and more serious) question: Can Georgetown remain in the PL and create a winning program?

"Fordham not taking that next step hurt": Does Fordham want to take that next step? Hard to say. Its future schedule is great on body-bag games when it should be reaching out for some serious inter-conference games, as Lehigh once tried to do. Fordham-Sam Houston or Fordham-NDSU might be more valuable down the road than collecting a check versus Charlotte or Hawaii. It's also taken no steps on upgrading Jack Coffey Field or any all-season practice facility as HC has done.

"Bucknell playing second fiddle to Lewisburg HS in their own stadium everyone in orange waits for bball season doesn't help": The Bison have won one football title in 22 years versus seven of the last nine in basketball. Fans go where the talent is.

They can, but are they willing to support the program to the level that they would need to? Probably not. Should they? That's up to them.

[DFW HOYA]

They can, but are they willing to support the program to the level that they would need to? Probably not. Should they? That's up to them.

What is that level? I've asked this before and always get some vague answers. Because if you're expecting a school which only funds 60 men's scholarships total to add 60 more in a single sport, that doesn't sell.

[PAllen]

What is that level? I've asked this before and always get some vague answers. Because if you're expecting a school which only funds 60 men's scholarships total to add 60 more in a single sport, that doesn't sell.

A 60 scholly Hoya team with a half way decent stadium and decent coaching salaries would dominate at this level. You'd probably be a national contender at 40-50 if handled correctly. That's too big a cost for you for that payout? That's your call. Lowering admission standards to where you can lure in kids who barely graduated HS with a promise of a Georgetown education might work too. But that's not going to happen in the PL. Of course, you would still need half way decent facilities and coaching salaries. Again, if that's still too much of an expense, then you are choosing to spend next to nothing and get nothing out of it. Again, that's your call.

[RichH2]

What is that level? I've asked this before and always get some vague answers. Because if you're expecting a school which only funds 60 men's scholarships total to add 60 more in a single sport, that doesn't sell.

PAllen sums it up accurately. Nothing new here. Pretty much the same things we have all said every year. GU could likely skip all the suggestions save that of upping your funding to 40 equivalencies. At that level Hoyas would certainly be a real force.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

50 or so seems surprising, 69 +1 should be returning if no defections, usually a fair amount held out of spring due to injuries (or academics) but unless 50 or so means 59, I don't get it either

agree that Coen seemed a bit off to me also, although he was more like himself in the facebook interview a few days ago

I was shocked by the 50 figure Coen gave! The math doesn't add up unless there's a decent combination of defections, academic issues and injuries.

Watching Leopard basketball to me just further indicates how little Lafayette cares about athletics. How does a guy like Fran O'Hanlon keep his job for over 2 decades? 8 winning seasons in 23 years? 3 winning seasons in the last 10? 3 straight 20 loss seasons? His overall record is terrible! He would have been fired years ago from about 98% of D1 schools imo.

[RichH2]

I was shocked by the 50 figure Coen gave! The math doesn't add up unless there's a decent combination of defections, academic issues and injuries.

Watching Leopard basketball to me just further indicates how little Lafayette cares about athletics. How does a guy like Fran O'Hanlon keep his job for over 2 decades? 8 winning seasons in 23 years? 3 winning seasons in the last 10? 3 straight 20 loss seasons? His overall record is terrible! He would have been fired years ago from about 98% of D1 schools imo.

WOs come and go. You're right that could account for some of the missing players.
As to Pard Bball. Fran is a fixture. They missed having Stout but overall not a very athletic squad. Painfully slow. We played much of the game with 4 Gs and out rebounded Pards.

[van]

well it has to be very hard to recruit anyone to go the school over there in Easton at the place, can't for the life of me understand why anyone would enroll there

[carney2]

"Allowing Tavani and Gilmore to hang around too long zapped the life out of Lafayette and HC football.": Tavani's extended stay is on Bruce McCutcheon.

DFW, you are usually an authoritative voice on this board. This statement, however, shows how little you know of the Lafayette athletic environment. Bruce McCutcheon was a yes man doing exactly what the powers-that-be wanted him to do. He had little true authority, and was probably not in a position to fire anyone. I contend that the Lafayette train is/was heading exactly where the authorities wanted it to go - D-3 - and Tavani was a very good conductor on that train, supervising loss after loss as the energy and interest was consistently drained from the program. I also contend that he'd still be pacing the sideline and drawing a pay check if he'd kept his mouth shut after the 2016 Lehigh game.

[RichH2]

DFW, you are usually an authoritative voice on this board. This statement, however, shows how little you know of the Lafayette athletic environment. Bruce McCutcheon was a yes man doing exactly what the powers-that-be wanted him to do. He had little true authority, and was probably not in a position to fire anyone. I contend that the Lafayette train is/was heading exactly where the authorities wanted it to go - D-3 - and Tavani was a very good conductor on that train, supervising loss after loss as the energy and interest was consistently drained from the program. I also contend that he'd still be pacing the sideline and drawing a pay check if he'd kept his mouth shut after the 2016 Lehigh game.

Agreed. Question now is will Lafayette support the new AD in refocusing athletics. Football and WBB hires seem to point in that direction.

[DFW HOYA]

DFW, you are usually an authoritative voice on this board. This statement, however, shows how little you know of the Lafayette athletic environment. Bruce McCutcheon was a yes man doing exactly what the powers-that-be wanted him to do. He had little true authority, and was probably not in a position to fire anyone. I contend that the Lafayette train is/was heading exactly where the authorities wanted it to go - D-3 - and Tavani was a very good conductor on that train, supervising loss after loss as the energy and interest was consistently drained from the program. I also contend that he'd still be pacing the sideline and drawing a pay check if he'd kept his mouth shut after the 2016 Lehigh game.

I appreciate the additional information. Surprised that the college would not entrust authority to its athletic director relative to enforcing this kind of contract.

Are you suggesting the train out of Easton is looking at the MAC?

[carney2]

I appreciate the additional information. Surprised that the college would not entrust authority to its athletic director relative to enforcing this kind of contract.

Are you suggesting the train out of Easton is looking at the MAC?

I seriously doubt if there is any real thought going into this or if there is any real plan, timeline or objective. The fact is - and it is a fact - the President of the college has a D-3 view of athletics. It is an extracurricular activity. She's an intelligent woman and understands what people are telling her when they discuss D-1, but feels that their views are misguided and that a D-1 approach runs counter to the mission of the College, and is a misuse of limited resources. I have no direct quotes, but that is my view after watching her in action (or is it inaction?) for a number of years. Instead of a scheduled railroad headed for the D-3 station, I would describe it more as an unguided and unimpeded drift in that direction. When we get there, we get there.

The recent coaching hires appear to run counter to my views expressed above. Both the football and women's basketball hires were handled professionally. I cannot easily explain that, but, as I said, I don't believe there is a "plan." As long as there is no earth shaking implementation of D-1 values and mentality, I believe that the drift will both be allowed and encouraged to continue. My personal line in the sand is the organization chart. If, on 12/31/2018, the AD is still reporting to some nondescript bureaucrat who used to hand out dorm keys, or someone similar, instead to the President of the College, D-3 has moved from being a local line to an express.

[RichH2]

I seriously doubt if there is any real thought going into this or if there is any real plan, timeline or objective. The fact is - and it is a fact - the President of the college has a D-3 view of athletics. It is an extracurricular activity. She's an intelligent woman and understands what people are telling her when they discuss D-1, but feels that their views are misguided and that a D-1 approach runs counter to the mission of the College, and is a misuse of limited resources. I have no direct quotes, but that is my view after watching her in action (or is it inaction?) for a number of years. Instead of a scheduled railroad headed for the D-3 station, I would describe it more as an unguided and unimpeded drift in that direction. When we get there, we get there.

The recent coaching hires appear to run counter to my views expressed above. Both the football and women's basketball hires were handled professionally. I cannot easily explain that, but, as I said, I don't believe there is a "plan." As long as there is no earth shaking implementation of D-1 values and mentality, I believe that the drift will both be allowed and encouraged to continue. My personal line in the sand is the organization chart. If, on 12/31/2018, the AD is still reporting to some nondescript bureaucrat who used to hand out dorm keys, or someone similar, instead to the President of the College, D-3 has moved from being a local line to an express.

Has she been interviewed or expressed her goals for the AD. Quick scan I couldnt find anything.

[carney2]

Has she been interviewed or expressed her goals for the AD. Quick scan I couldnt find anything.

Other than "Welcome, new AD," I know of nothing. The new AD is a ray of hope here. She seems to be an intelligent go-getter with a bright future beyond Lafayette. I would hope that she got some guarantees coming in the door.

[DFW HOYA]

A brief return to my earlier post--had Lafayette forced Frank Tavani's retirement after 2013, it lets him go out a winner (however that's defined) and builds for the future. Clearly, that didn't happen. Is that also playing out with O'Hanlon?

[RichH2]

A brief return to my earlier post--had Lafayette forced Frank Tavani's retirement after 2013, it lets him go out a winner (however that's defined) and builds for the future. Clearly, that didn't happen. Is that also playing out with O'Hanlon?

If Tavani was entrenched, Fran is enshrined. :) He will leave when he wants. Does seem to be a fresh breath of air with his new asst coaches. Excellent recruiters.Current frosh and next year's group are a much more athletic and talented bunch.Unlike Fran's usual recruit classe of 6'10 skinny kids and 3 pt shooters.

[carney2]

A brief return to my earlier post--had Lafayette forced Frank Tavani's retirement after 2013, it lets him go out a winner (however that's defined) and builds for the future. Clearly, that didn't happen. Is that also playing out with O'Hanlon?

'twould appear. The man has a reputation as a great game day coach and a hoops junkie. He is not a recruiter, however. He has maybe 3 or 4 players on the current roster that are of D-1 - even Patriot League D-1 - caliber. And, it just goes on and on. Agree with RichH2 that this year's freshmen appear to be a notch above.

[van]

DFW, you are usually an authoritative voice on this board. This statement, however, shows how little you know of the Lafayette athletic environment. Bruce McCutcheon was a yes man doing exactly what the powers-that-be wanted him to do. He had little true authority, and was probably not in a position to fire anyone. I contend that the Lafayette train is/was heading exactly where the authorities wanted it to go - D-3 - and Tavani was a very good conductor on that train, supervising loss after loss as the energy and interest was consistently drained from the program. I also contend that he'd still be pacing the sideline and drawing a pay check if he'd kept his mouth shut after the 2016 Lehigh game.

seems to me that a school that prides itself on academics, with about 2500 undergrads has a pretty steep challenge supporting 22 sports, in all of FCS there can't many schools that size with that ambition

[RichH2]

seems to me that a school that prides itself on academics, with about 2500 undergrads has a pretty steep challenge supporting 22 sports, in all of FCS there can't many schools that size with that ambition

True. Problem for Pards is they offer 22 sports but support very few of them.

[RichH2]

Carney
Just looking at some of Garrett's new hires. Guessing he is getting funding to bring in experienced assts. A positive or a mirage??

[Go...gate]

Have to admit that I am surprised and disappointed that Lafayette Basketball has had its troubles as well.

[Gate83]

I seriously doubt if there is any real thought going into this or if there is any real plan, timeline or objective. The fact is - and it is a fact - the President of the college has a D-3 view of athletics. It is an extracurricular activity. She's an intelligent woman and understands what people are telling her when they discuss D-1, but feels that their views are misguided and that a D-1 approach runs counter to the mission of the College, and is a misuse of limited resources. I have no direct quotes, but that is my view after watching her in action (or is it inaction?) for a number of years. Instead of a scheduled railroad headed for the D-3 station, I would describe it more as an unguided and unimpeded drift in that direction. When we get there, we get there.

The recent coaching hires appear to run counter to my views expressed above. Both the football and women's basketball hires were handled professionally. I cannot easily explain that, but, as I said, I don't believe there is a "plan." As long as there is no earth shaking implementation of D-1 values and mentality, I believe that the drift will both be allowed and encouraged to continue. My personal line in the sand is the organization chart. If, on 12/31/2018, the AD is still reporting to some nondescript bureaucrat who used to hand out dorm keys, or someone similar, instead to the President of the College, D-3 has moved from being a local line to an express.

Just picked up the mail and in it is "A Vision Statement for Colgate's Third Century" (our bicentennial is next year). Within the vision statement our "unique athletic history" is first mentioned on page 1 and recurs throughout. It's no coincidence that our current president is a former D1 athlete who understands the value of striving for excellence both academically and in everything else the university touches. We've had our share of presidents who just as you describe would prefer to drift to a lower level of athletic engagement, kudos to the current board & prez for rejecting that notion out of hand. Hopefully Lafayette discovers the will to do the same.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Have to admit that I am surprised and disappointed that Lafayette Basketball has had its troubles as well.

The men's and women's programs have both struggled over the years.

Hanlon did have a PL Title team in the last 3-5 years but outside of that success has been fleeting. He was an assistant under Dunphy at Penn before taking over for Leone (??) in Easton. I went to the Temple-Lafayette game at Kirby in 2008. It happened to be the night before the Lehigh-Lafayette game. I have to believe it came about since the Frans are friends.

Lafayette is a headache worthy enigma when it comes to athletics. They have a very nice football stadium and a solid bball facility yet they suck more often than not in all 3 "major" sports.

[Sader87]

The men's and women's programs have both struggled over the years.

Hanlon did have a PL Title team in the last 3-5 years but outside of that success has been fleeting. He was an assistant under Dunphy at Penn before taking over for Leone (??) in Easton. I went to the Temple-Lafayette game at Kirby in 2008. It happened to be the night before the Lehigh-Lafayette game. I have to believe it came about since the Frans are friends.

Lafayette is a headache worthy enigma when it comes to athletics. They have a very nice football stadium and a solid bball facility yet they suck more often than not in all 3 "major" sports.

Just curious, what do you consider the third "major" sport? Assuming football and men's hoops are the other two....

[DFW HOYA]

Just curious, what do you consider the third "major" sport? Assuming football and men's hoops are the other two....

Football, basketball, baseball. And few if any of these schools can be happy with baseball.

[van]

replace baseball with softball, give the ladies some recognition

[Fordham]

Just picked up the mail and in it is "A Vision Statement for Colgate's Third Century" (our bicentennial is next year). Within the vision statement our "unique athletic history" is first mentioned on page 1 and recurs throughout. It's no coincidence that our current president is a former D1 athlete who understands the value of striving for excellence both academically and in everything else the university touches. We've had our share of presidents who just as you describe would prefer to drift to a lower level of athletic engagement, kudos to the current board & prez for rejecting that notion out of hand. Hopefully Lafayette discovers the will to do the same.
That's great news for gate. Hope Casey can become a leader within the PL as well.

[RichH2]

That's great news for gate. Hope Casey can become a leader within the PL as well.

PL is in need of more Presidents that actually favor athletics rather than tolerate them. Casey and Simon could be a formidable force to get Council to be more proactive.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Patriot League knows WHO they are. They are all high-academic schools. They value academics. Their student-athletes reflect that.

The common theme where everyone is going with this is the word "drift". There does seem to be a lack of an overall plan and goal for the Patriot League in general as to where they want to go. Do they want to try to compete with Duke and Stanford? Are they happy getting an automatic bid in the NCAA Tournament and FCS playoffs and getting knocked out in the first round? Do they want a place to park most of their "other" sports while chasing national ambitions in football (Army, Navy), wrestling (Lehigh), or hockey (Colgate)? These types of questions are not unique to the Patriot League - but they do relate to the identity of the league. Are high academics and FCS national championships incompatible today? Can a Patriot League team, whose students actually attend classes, and tough ones, aspire to a NCAA men's basketball championship, where kids from UNC attend sham classes?

In a way, the Patriot League schools are better suited than most to be in their own conference. Many conferences have no idea who they are. Look at the Sun Belt - what earthly reason do Georgia State and Louisiana-Lafayette have in common academically? But the "drift" in the Patriot League comes from not agreeing how much money or effort that should be expended to meet athletic goals, or what the goals even should be. Of all the faults of the Sun Belt, and Lord knows there are many, the Sun Belt agrees on the "goal" that a huge amount of money should be expended per program for a "goal" of having money-sucking bowls. It is a sucky goal that is not worth the money, but it IS a goal.

[DFW HOYA]

Here's an analogy of where the Patriot League is now - think of an eight man rowing shell at a regatta.

http://thebrownandwhite.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/160308_mens_and_womens_rowing_preview_Barry_03_Web .jpg

In the first two seats are Lehigh and Lafayette. The league's boathouse is nearby. They've trained together for years and proceed at a measured pace.

The next two seats are Colgate and Fordham. Both weigh more than the men in the first two seats, so their catch and recovery is a little off. Fordham trained on the East River and is known to get impatient and row at a different pace, so this throws off the entire boat.

Holy Cross sits in the fifth seat. He's a little bit older and remembers when he sat in the first seat and wonders why he can't go back there.

Bucknell sits in the sixth seat. He capable but doesn't train year round, because he also plays basketball. He's not very good on the the catch but is strong on recovery.

Georgetown sits in the seventh seat. He used to be strong in the eights but lost his boat many years ago and had to row in the fours before a seat opened up. The problem is that he brought an old wooden oar to the regatta and is always off the pace.

The eighth seat is empty because no one wants to sit there. The boat never gets that late push over the line, and veers because the number of oars are uneven.

Unlike this photo, there is no coxswain. Everyone rows at their own pace, and the other boats seem to pass them by at the late stages of the race.

[Bluefish845]

Hoya- awesome analogy. I'm currently reading the Boys in the Boat about Washington crew in the late '30's and 40's. very good read.
Regarding the PL the Bill parcels " you are what your record says you are" comes to mind. While rich in history the ability to compete is going to remain elusive given the sometimes seemingly endless financial support that schools like JMU, NDSU and many others have AND the high academic standards that are a PL standard. Add in the perception of a lack of institutional support real or perceived and maybe you just have to accept it. While almost any kid would love to play for any of the PL schools they do not do so with expectations of winning a National championship yeah they would love to and it is great if the Pl champ can make a run deep into the playoffs on occasion but at the end of the day you are a great group of schools that have an incredible academic reputation and some historically very good football teams. Sometimes you just have to accept what you are. Self awareness is very difficult.

[RichH2]

The Patriot League knows WHO they are. They are all high-academic schools. They value academics. Their student-athletes reflect that.

The common theme where everyone is going with this is the word "drift". There does seem to be a lack of an overall plan and goal for the Patriot League in general as to where they want to go. Do they want to try to compete with Duke and Stanford? Are they happy getting an automatic bid in the NCAA Tournament and FCS playoffs and getting knocked out in the first round? Do they want a place to park most of their "other" sports while chasing national ambitions in football (Army, Navy), wrestling (Lehigh), or hockey (Colgate)? These types of questions are not unique to the Patriot League - but they do relate to the identity of the league. Are high academics and FCS national championships incompatible today? Can a Patriot League team, whose students actually attend classes, and tough ones, aspire to a NCAA men's basketball championship, where kids from UNC attend sham classes?

In a way, the Patriot League schools are better suited than most to be in their own conference. Many conferences have no idea who they are. Look at the Sun Belt - what earthly reason do Georgia State and Louisiana-Lafayette have in common academically? But the "drift" in the Patriot League comes from not agreeing how much money or effort that should be expended to meet athletic goals, or what the goals even should be. Of all the faults of the Sun Belt, and Lord knows there are many, the Sun Belt agrees on the "goal" that a huge amount of money should be expended per program for a "goal" of having money-sucking bowls. It is a sucky goal that is not worth the money, but it IS a goal.
On point. As with schollies, PL needs a push in one direction or another. Absent that, academia's normal inertia will rule the day. Hence my hope that Simon and Casey can proove to the rest that strong athletics are not an anathema to strong academics.

[carney2]

Carney
Just looking at some of Garrett's new hires. Guessing he is getting funding to bring in experienced assts. A positive or a mirage??

IF Garrett has additional funding I'd bet dollars to donuts it didn't come from the College. So, the question is where would it have come from? The answer is probably nowhere. So, I'd be thinking mirage on your conclusions here.

[carney2]

Just curious, what do you consider the third "major" sport? Assuming football and men's hoops are the other two....

My personal 3 majors are football, men's basketball, and women's basketball. At Lafayette it doesn't matter what three you choose. They're all suckier than sucky. These, however, are the only three I care about.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My personal 3 majors are football, men's basketball, and women's basketball. At Lafayette it doesn't matter what three you choose. They're all suckier than sucky. These, however, are the only three I care about.

This is exactly the question the Patriot League needs to answer, not just the individual schools. As a collective conference, do we want the best of the Patriot League to compete for women's national basketball titles? If so, how do schools get there?

Women's basketball is actually an excellent example because at most colleges and universities don't go through the same AAU/combine shenanigans as football and men's basketball. Most women's programs have scholarships and recruiting, but at a much more limited level, and the grades in general are almost always top of the line, perfect GPA types (not just PL, either). The Patriot League could do in women's basketball what they broadly did for men's and women's lacrosse - declare in some way that they have national ambitions in the sport and give the schools the impetus to go forward. But nobody has.

[carney2]

True. Problem for Pards is they offer 22 sports but support very few of them.

It may be a problem, but certainly isn't THE problem. Remember, the NCAA has a minimum number of sports that must be offered to remain in the D-I classification. I believe the number is 16. The gigantic University of Texas, for instance, doesn't mess around. They offer exactly the minimum number required. They're a football school and they know it. It has been pointed out that Lafayette wouldn't save much money by eliminating sports such as golf, tennis, swimming, volleyball, and the like. Absolutely true, but it might allow them to focus on a few where results might boost the institution. I give them a lot of crap on this site, but at some level you have to admire a school like Bucknell which says "We focus on basketball and the other sports merely fill out the calendar." Holy Cross had a similar mindset a decade or so ago, but seems to have lost their way. Every athletic department in the Patriot League should give this some thought. "What should be our athletic priorities?" They won't, of course.

[RichH2]

It may be a problem, but certainly isn't THE problem. Remember, the NCAA has a minimum number of sports that must be offered to remain in the D-I classification. I believe the number is 16. The gigantic University of Texas, for instance, doesn't mess around. They offer exactly the minimum number required. They're a football school and they know it. It has been pointed out that Lafayette wouldn't save much money by eliminating sports such as golf, tennis, swimming, volleyball, and the like. Absolutely true, but it might allow them to focus on a few where results might boost the institution. I give them a lot of crap on this site, but at some level you have to admire a school like Bucknell which says "We focus on basketball and the other sports merely fill out the calendar." Holy Cross had a similar mindset a decade or so ago, but seems to have lost their way. Every athletic department in the Patriot League should give this some thought. "What should be our athletic priorities?" They won't, of course.

Title IX a major reason why for PL. Focus is ,I agree , not a matter of the number of sports. At Lehigh , Sterret has decided to support all sports at least to some extent. Bottom of the list is Baseball altho their funding has been increased markedly over the last 3 years. LU is twice the size od Lafayette and has admittedly a lot more funding . Dont really agree on Bucknell. They challenge for the Presidents's Cuo every year. Scanning PL teams Lafayette seems to be the outlier in athletics.

[DFW HOYA]

The Pacific-12 calls itself the "conference of champions".

http://pac-12.com/content/about-pac-12-conference

By contrast, here is the PL mission and vision statements. The word "championship" never appears.

http://www.patriotleague.com/sports/2016/6/13/ot-mission-vision-html.aspx?

[carney2]

Dont really agree on Bucknell. They challenge for the Presidents's Cuo every year. Scanning PL teams Lafayette seems to be the outlier in athletics.

Good point. Bucky wins the Presidents' Cup by performing well in sports that I don't give a thought to. They are apparently doing more well than just basketball.

[RichH2]

Interesting to look around PL to see varsity sports offered outside the PL
Fordham just here for football
Army Navy Football
Hoyas well everything but football
Bucknell Wrestling Water Polo
American just here for Bball
Colgate Ice Hockey
Boston Ice Hockey
Pards Fencing
Lehigh Wrestling
Holy Cross Ice Hockey

[Go...gate]

Interesting to look around PL to see varsity sports offered outside the PL
Fordham just here for football
Army Navy Football
Hoyas well everything but football
Bucknell Wrestling Water Polo
American just here for Bball
Colgate Ice Hockey
Boston Ice Hockey
Pards Fencing
Lehigh Wrestling
Holy Cross Ice Hockey

American is an all-sports member, unless that has changed in the last year or so.

[PAllen]

Army Ice Hockey

Army, Navy and American Wrestling

[Go...gate]

Some of the PL schools have Equestrian as well - Lafayette comes to mind, and Colgate has it at least as a club sport.

Fordham has Sailing.

[carney2]

Some of the PL schools have Equestrian as well - Lafayette comes to mind, and Colgate has it at least as a club sport.

Fordham has Sailing.

Lafayette, equestrian? It's news to me. The only thing that even looked like a horse that I ever remember seeing on College Hill was one of my senior year dates.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

It may be a problem, but certainly isn't THE problem. Remember, the NCAA has a minimum number of sports that must be offered to remain in the D-I classification. I believe the number is 16. The gigantic University of Texas, for instance, doesn't mess around. They offer exactly the minimum number required. They're a football school and they know it. It has been pointed out that Lafayette wouldn't save much money by eliminating sports such as golf, tennis, swimming, volleyball, and the like. Absolutely true, but it might allow them to focus on a few where results might boost the institution. I give them a lot of crap on this site, but at some level you have to admire a school like Bucknell which says "We focus on basketball and the other sports merely fill out the calendar." Holy Cross had a similar mindset a decade or so ago, but seems to have lost their way. Every athletic department in the Patriot League should give this some thought. "What should be our athletic priorities?" They won't, of course.

Bucknell has routinely competed for the Presidents' Cup, having won most of them since the inception of the Patriot League, always a challenge in a league with the two academies. The facilities are continuously being upgraded. This year alone the new wrestling training/sports medicine facility has opened and new grandstands for baseball (and softball?) will be christened when this year's glacier recedes. The swimming, diving and water polo facilities host the PIAA championships annually and have hosted the NCAA WP Championships. Men's WP played in the NCAA tourney last year. The last non-performing coach that hung around too long, women's hoops, was sacked. Bucknell did their due diligence and brought in an ace replacement, with lots of subsequent success. I don't see a comparison of the PL performance anything akin to Holy Cross or Lafayette, but comparable to Lehigh and Colgate, except for football. Boston University arrived with a lot more scholarships in the olympic sports, but have been cutting back as students graduate. Loyola and American are both near the D1 minimum for sports (17, 14). Loyola is here to ensure the lacrosse relevance. AU? Their women's programs can be great- volleyball is occasionally ranked and hoops has excelled this year. Does anyone in DC even notice?

As to the lag in football, I would defer to a better analysis by Bison137 (the people's choice for AD). From my perch, 1400 miles away to the southwest, the size of the fiscal commitment is the challenge. Bison football lacks a wide constituency in town, on campus and in the alumni body. Football alumni themselves are the program's biggest supporters. The big football years were the early 60's and those alums are well into retirement and less and less active. Bucknell basketball has cultivated over many years a fan base in the local community, something football has found elusive. The biggest football crowd I ever saw in Christy was a Lewisburg/Milton high-school game. Unlocking that sort of local passion would be great but has not happened in the last few decades. That said, I believe the commitment to PL football is there, like the rest of the programs.

Is football like lacrosse? This concern for winning national championships across the board seems specious, apart from lacrosse. (Colgate did have a nice run in men's soccer this year.) Look at the number of PL athletes with cut times for nationals in swimming or track. Individual athletes will have the opportunity for that level of competition (with good coaching) but they all get a PL-level education. Maybe it is the Bucknellian in me, but that seems like the right size.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Bucknell dominated Colgate to capture another PL Tournament Title. The Bison do have one helluva a bball program relative to the rest of the PL!

[Go...gate]

That certainly was a rout. Colgate did have a fine season, though, finishing with the most wins in program history.

[RichH2]

For Colgate, Holland will be back next year as will everyone who ran the ball. Everyone who threw the ball will be back. The top six receivers will be back. 23 of the top 26 tacklers will be back (the 5th, 11th, and 19th leading tacklers graduate). TJ Holl (who was leading the country in tackles when he went out in the fourth game) comes back. All of the specialists are back. Max Hartzman (starting center) comes back from injury as do two other offensive line starters and a probable OL starter who was hurt in camp.

On paper, Colgate should be better. Having four home games with New Hampshire, Furman, William and Mary, Army (and half of the PL) on the road will certainly reveal how much better.
Agreed. Gate is the only squad with no major holes to fill.
Lehigh may challenge if a D is found somewhere. The key may be how well these teams survive their OOC games.

[DFW HOYA]

A quick check of the game notes from week 12 suggests the following returnees by school:

Colgate: 8 offense, 9 defense
Lehigh: 8 offense, 8 defense
Bucknell: 8 offense, 5 defense
Fordham: 6 offense, 6 defense
Lafayette: 5 offense, 5 defense
Holy Cross: 3 offense, 6 defense
Georgetown: 5 offense, 6 defense

That's the likely finish in 2018.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Agreed. Gate is the only squad with no major holes to fill.
Lehigh may challenge if a D is found somewhere. The key may be how well these teams survive their OOC games.

With numbers so low for spring practice it's hard to imagine much of anything shaking out heading into fall camp. I still don't see personnel on defense that's capable of really stepping up and improving the unit. Combine that with unproven/suspect coaching and it's hard to be optimistic at this point.

When does spring practice officially start for Lehigh?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

A quick check of the game notes from week 12 suggests the following returnees by school:

Colgate: 8 offense, 9 defense
Lehigh: 8 offense, 8 defense
Bucknell: 8 offense, 5 defense
Fordham: 6 offense, 6 defense
Lafayette: 5 offense, 5 defense
Holy Cross: 3 offense, 6 defense
Georgetown: 5 offense, 6 defense

That's the likely finish in 2018.

I don't see the Bison finishing 3rd. They suffered some key graduation losses and their QB play continues to be below average.

I think over the course of the last 15-20 years Fordham and Lehigh have consistently had the most talent 1-30ish on their rosters. If the new coaching staff can change the culture a bit in the Bronx I expect the Rams to bounce back quickly. Lafayette's defense will be legit but their QB situation is dicey as is their OL and ground game. Coaching staff continuity could also be an issue in Easton. Holy Cross is basically starting with an entirely clean slate coaching and personnel wise (relatively speaking). Given that and an imposing schedule the Crusaders will be lucky to win 3 games imo.

Even with a horrific defense Lehigh still seems firmly entrenched as 'Gate's main challenger and vice-versa.

[cx500d]

Lehigh may challenge if a D is found somewhere. The key may be how well these teams survive their OOC games.

Unfortunately, it looks like most of last year’s D is returning


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ngineer]

With numbers so low for spring practice it's hard to imagine much of anything shaking out heading into fall camp. I still don't see personnel on defense that's capable of really stepping up and improving the unit. Combine that with unproven/suspect coaching and it's hard to be optimistic at this point.

When does spring practice officially start for Lehigh? I think LU starts spring ball 3/23. Spring "game" set for around 4/21.

I have been away for a bit as I lost my father two weeks ago, so a lot of responsibilities to take care of. I enjoyed reviewing the gnashing of teeth over our annual ritual of what are "we" doing and where are "we" going as a League.
The problem I see is that the Presidents, as a whole, are satisfied with what is occurring. They know we cannot devote the funds nor reduce academic standards to make a serious push to become national championship contenders. The occasional upset when one of us makes "some noise" on the national stage is sufficient fuel for them. The want to be 'competitive' with OOC schools, but want to focus on winning amongst ourselves. The only sport that the PL actually competes on a national level is mens' lacrosse. The PL consistently has 3-4 schools ranked in the top 20. Loyola won the national title a few years ago, Colgate, Navy, Army, Bucknell and Lehigh have been very competitive over the past 5-10 years. LAX is much less expensive than football and still has a good excitement factor as a combination of football and hockey. That is the only league sport that competes on the national stage. Bucknell in bball may win a game or two in the NCAA, but unrealistic to win it all. Lehigh's wrestling team is ranked #6 going into this weekend's NCAA Championship Tournament and its coach, Pat Santoro was just named today the National Coach of the Year at the Division I level. But Lehigh has developed a strong base over decades for that sport with substantial alumni support. But neither Lehigh or any other PL school can commit the funds and energy necessary to achieve that level on a consistent basis. Even our wrestling program has gone in cycles with some 'down' periods. So, we just have to be happy with our PL championships and recognize that our administrations see athletics not as a business, but as a compliment to the educational process. Doing anything more would be contrary to the philosophy.

[DFW HOYA]

I don't see the Bison finishing 3rd. They suffered some key graduation losses and their QB play continues to be below average.

I think over the course of the last 15-20 years Fordham and Lehigh have consistently had the most talent 1-30ish on their rosters. If the new coaching staff can change the culture a bit in the Bronx I expect the Rams to bounce back quickly. Lafayette's defense will be legit but their QB situation is dicey as is their OL and ground game. Coaching staff continuity could also be an issue in Easton. Holy Cross is basically starting with an entirely clean slate coaching and personnel wise (relatively speaking). Given that and an imposing schedule the Crusaders will be lucky to win 3 games imo.

Even with a horrific defense Lehigh still seems firmly entrenched as 'Gate's main challenger and vice-versa.

I think Bucknell and Fordham are in that 3-3 logjam, so the revised totals would be something like:

Colgate: 5-1
Lehigh: 5-1
Bucknell: 3-3
Fordham: 3-3
Lafayette: 3-3
Holy Cross: 2-4
Georgetown: 0-6

[RichH2]

Unfortunately, it looks like most of last year’s D is returning


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

True. The upside tho is that most of those returning are fresmen and a few sophs. Dont expect our D to morph into a dominant unit but they may get to average :).

[RichH2]

I think LU starts spring ball 3/23. Spring "game" set for around 4/21.

I have been away for a bit as I lost my father two weeks ago, so a lot of responsibilities to take care of. I enjoyed reviewing the gnashing of teeth over our annual ritual of what are "we" doing and where are "we" going as a League.
[/B] The problem I see is that the Presidents, as a whole, are satisfied with what is occurring. They know we cannot devote the funds nor reduce academic standards to make a serious push to become national championship contenders. The occasional upset when one of us makes "some noise" on the national stage is sufficient fuel for them. The want to be 'competitive' with OOC schools, but want to focus on winning amongst ourselves. The only sport that the PL actually competes on a national level is mens' lacrosse. The PL consistently has 3-4 schools ranked in the top 20. Loyola won the national title a few years ago, Colgate, Navy, Army, Bucknell and Lehigh have been very competitive over the past 5-10 years. LAX is much less expensive than football and still has a good excitement factor as a combination of football and hockey. That is the only league sport that competes on the national stage. Bucknell in bball may win a game or two in the NCAA, but unrealistic to win it all. Lehigh's wrestling team is ranked #6 going into this weekend's NCAA Championship Tournament and its coach, Pat Santoro was just named today the National Coach of the Year at the Division I level. But Lehigh has developed a strong base over decades for that sport with substantial alumni support. But neither Lehigh or any other PL school can commit the funds and energy necessary to achieve that level on a consistent basis. Even our wrestling program has gone in cycles with some 'down' periods. So, we just have to be happy with our PL championships and recognize that our administrations see athletics not as a business, but as a compliment to the educational process. Doing anything more would be contrary to the philosophy.

Sorry to hear about your Dad ngineer. Never an easy time no matter the age.
owl is probably right that we wont see much this Spring given the lack of healthy bodies. Hopefully we will get to see some development s on D. Particularly on the DL. Kircher and Dooling may be ready on the inside. At LB I want to see who Kaburcha slots into the LB and Rover positions. Even if not much, it is still real football which will have to hold us til August. :)

[DFW HOYA]

"They know we cannot devote the funds nor reduce academic standards to make a serious push to become national championship contenders. The occasional upset when one of us makes "some noise" on the national stage is sufficient fuel for them."

Disagree, as follows:

1. Six of seven PL funds devote the funds to compete--all are within the top 15 schools in the subdivision on spend. That Georgetown cannot because of other obligations (and an institutional myopia on football) is the exception and not the rule.

2. The "academic standards" argument is increasingly a red herring. Plenty of schools maintain academic standards (albeit not the wholly subjective Ivy standards the PL seems hesitant to back away from) and succeed. Last year alone, Northwestern, Duke, Army and Navy all went to bowls, and all won. If the PL schools believe the only "standards" are those set by Robin Harris in an office on the Princeton University campus, it will never be more than a first round conference entrant.

3. Lest we think otherwise, the PL hasn't made noise on the national stage in almost two decades. If noise upsets these presidents, maybe they need to find a quieter place to work...or these schools need a place where mere whispering about sports is insufficient.

[Fordham]

sorry for your loss, ng

[RichH2]

"They know we cannot devote the funds nor reduce academic standards to make a serious push to become national championship contenders. The occasional upset when one of us makes "some noise" on the national stage is sufficient fuel for them."

Disagree, as follows:

1. Six of seven PL funds devote the funds to compete--all are within the top 15 schools in the subdivision on spend. That Georgetown cannot because of other obligations (and an institutional myopia on football) is the exception and not the rule.

2. The "academic standards" argument is increasingly a red herring. Plenty of schools maintain academic standards (albeit not the wholly subjective Ivy standards the PL seems hesitant to back away from) and succeed. Last year alone, Northwestern, Duke, Army and Navy all went to bowls, and all won. If the PL schools believe the only "standards" are those set by Robin Harris in an office on the Princeton University campus, it will never be more than a first round conference entrant.

3. Lest we think otherwise, the PL hasn't made noise on the national stage in almost two decades. If noise upsets these presidents, maybe they need to find a quieter place to work...or these schools need a place where mere whispering about sports is insufficient.






You're right DFW. As far as I can see PL has a few Presidents that support athletics and the rest absolutely dont care. Pard an outlier here in that they appear to support the major sports but continue to have a Rube Goldberg organisational setup that militates against athletics.
We have discussed at length the PL bylaws that restrict football. Over the the last decade there have been numerous other factors at individual schools that I think did more to limit success in football. Poor recruiting for the 1st 3 years of schollies tops the list. Lafayette kept Tavani for 5 years past his due date. Coen could not find a D staff to maintain a decent D. Cross kept Gilmore for too long. Fordham likewise could rarely field a D.. Bucknell fielded a great D but has failed under Susan to have an O that could score points. Gate has had its ups and down but much less tumult than Lehigh or Fordham. Hoyas just keep doing the same thing.
Injuries are part of football but perhaps more of an impact in the PL given our artificially small rosters.
I think the top 2 or 3 PL teams will be able to compete OOC. Absent some moderation of PL rules,top 10 teams will be a once in a while occurrence.

[Go...gate]

I think LU starts spring ball 3/23. Spring "game" set for around 4/21.

I have been away for a bit as I lost my father two weeks ago, so a lot of responsibilities to take care of. I enjoyed reviewing the gnashing of teeth over our annual ritual of what are "we" doing and where are "we" going as a League.
[/B] The problem I see is that the Presidents, as a whole, are satisfied with what is occurring. They know we cannot devote the funds nor reduce academic standards to make a serious push to become national championship contenders. The occasional upset when one of us makes "some noise" on the national stage is sufficient fuel for them. The want to be 'competitive' with OOC schools, but want to focus on winning amongst ourselves. The only sport that the PL actually competes on a national level is mens' lacrosse. The PL consistently has 3-4 schools ranked in the top 20. Loyola won the national title a few years ago, Colgate, Navy, Army, Bucknell and Lehigh have been very competitive over the past 5-10 years. LAX is much less expensive than football and still has a good excitement factor as a combination of football and hockey. That is the only league sport that competes on the national stage. Bucknell in bball may win a game or two in the NCAA, but unrealistic to win it all. Lehigh's wrestling team is ranked #6 going into this weekend's NCAA Championship Tournament and its coach, Pat Santoro was just named today the National Coach of the Year at the Division I level. But Lehigh has developed a strong base over decades for that sport with substantial alumni support. But neither Lehigh or any other PL school can commit the funds and energy necessary to achieve that level on a consistent basis. Even our wrestling program has gone in cycles with some 'down' periods. So, we just have to be happy with our PL championships and recognize that our administrations see athletics not as a business, but as a compliment to the educational process. Doing anything more would be contrary to the philosophy.

Please accept my condolences on the passing of your father. Hang in there.

[Go...gate]

"They know we cannot devote the funds nor reduce academic standards to make a serious push to become national championship contenders. The occasional upset when one of us makes "some noise" on the national stage is sufficient fuel for them."

Disagree, as follows:

1. Six of seven PL funds devote the funds to compete--all are within the top 15 schools in the subdivision on spend. That Georgetown cannot because of other obligations (and an institutional myopia on football) is the exception and not the rule.

2. The "academic standards" argument is increasingly a red herring. Plenty of schools maintain academic standards (albeit not the wholly subjective Ivy standards the PL seems hesitant to back away from) and succeed. Last year alone, Northwestern, Duke, Army and Navy all went to bowls, and all won. If the PL schools believe the only "standards" are those set by Robin Harris in an office on the Princeton University campus, it will never be more than a first round conference entrant.

3. Lest we think otherwise, the PL hasn't made noise on the national stage in almost two decades. If noise upsets these presidents, maybe they need to find a quieter place to work...or these schools need a place where mere whispering about sports is insufficient.


We had a Quarterfinalist in 2015.....

[RichH2]

We had a Quarterfinalist in 2015.....
I think PL will advance in playoffs once in a while. Ir recruiting stays at the current level we may get 2 bids again. With our artificial limits everything has to fall exactly right for our teams to do more. We have no slack. We cant miss on recruits or coaches.

[Gate83]

So, we just have to be happy with our PL championships and recognize that our administrations see athletics not as a business, but as a compliment to the educational process. Doing anything more would be contrary to the philosophy.

Ngineer, condolences on your dad. I did want to cherrypick this part of your post though, as if our admins view athletics the way you describe... I'm all for them. Rather, I think the problem is sometimes we have administrations that think sports success is antithetical to academic mission and work to minimize athletics as a result. That's the really shortsighted argument some of our pointy heads make while the Ivies laugh all the way to the bank.

Meanwhile, a quick shout-out to the Gate women's hockey team, in Minneapolis this weekend for the Frozen 4! Tough matchup with Wisconsin tomorrow. Gate sports is in a pretty good place right now, with generally competitive teams and a president who supports athletics as an important part of a liberal arts education.

[carney2]

I'm not sure, it could be today, but The Study at Lafayette is soon celebrating its 500th day. There is rejoicing in the streets on College Hill because the results are obvious.

[Lehigh'98]

I'm not sure, it could be today, but The Study at Lafayette is soon celebrating its 500th day. There is rejoicing in the streets on College Hill because the results are obvious.

Quite a long study. Are they getting paid by the hour?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I think LU starts spring ball 3/23. Spring "game" set for around 4/21.

I have been away for a bit as I lost my father two weeks ago, so a lot of responsibilities to take care of. I enjoyed reviewing the gnashing of teeth over our annual ritual of what are "we" doing and where are "we" going as a League.
[/B] The problem I see is that the Presidents, as a whole, are satisfied with what is occurring. They know we cannot devote the funds nor reduce academic standards to make a serious push to become national championship contenders. The occasional upset when one of us makes "some noise" on the national stage is sufficient fuel for them. The want to be 'competitive' with OOC schools, but want to focus on winning amongst ourselves. The only sport that the PL actually competes on a national level is mens' lacrosse. The PL consistently has 3-4 schools ranked in the top 20. Loyola won the national title a few years ago, Colgate, Navy, Army, Bucknell and Lehigh have been very competitive over the past 5-10 years. LAX is much less expensive than football and still has a good excitement factor as a combination of football and hockey. That is the only league sport that competes on the national stage. Bucknell in bball may win a game or two in the NCAA, but unrealistic to win it all. Lehigh's wrestling team is ranked #6 going into this weekend's NCAA Championship Tournament and its coach, Pat Santoro was just named today the National Coach of the Year at the Division I level. But Lehigh has developed a strong base over decades for that sport with substantial alumni support. But neither Lehigh or any other PL school can commit the funds and energy necessary to achieve that level on a consistent basis. Even our wrestling program has gone in cycles with some 'down' periods. So, we just have to be happy with our PL championships and recognize that our administrations see athletics not as a business, but as a compliment to the educational process. Doing anything more would be contrary to the philosophy.

Sorry to hear about your loss ngineer...

Colgate's women's hockey team reached the national title game! The PL schools can compete with a little extra kick in the butt.....

[carney2]

Quite a long study. Are they getting paid by the hour?

Possibly, but it's apparently hush money because the "results" are not what the powers-that-be want to hear. And you can pretty well bet at this point that "reading The Study" will not be anything done by everyday fans.

[RichH2]

Possibly, but it's apparently hush money because the "results" are not what the powers-that-be want to hear. And you can pretty well bet at this point that "reading The Study" will not be anything done by everyday fans.

Seems so Carney. Does appear with new AD,WBB coach and football coach, some parts of it are being implemented. Pretty clear Admin has no plan to reorganize as the "STUDY" likely recommended.

[Lehigh'98]

Possibly, but it's apparently hush money because the "results" are not what the powers-that-be want to hear. And you can pretty well bet at this point that "reading The Study" will not be anything done by everyday fans.

What was the purpose of the study again? It's been so long I forgot.

[DFW HOYA]

Meanwhile, in Washington...

Remember that OC Georgetown named in January? Already gone...to Holy Cross.

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/football.htm

http://www.goholycross.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=33100&ATCLID=211706328

[The Boogie Down]

Meanwhile, in Washington...

Remember that OC Georgetown named in January? Already gone...to Holy Cross.

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/football.htm

http://www.goholycross.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=33100&ATCLID=211706328

Except for his 1 year at Harvard, that guy has never been part of a winning program ever. This includes his playing days at Northeastern so I'd call it a push for Georgetown. Maybe less so for the Cross.

[Colgate Raider Redux]

Foe anyone interested, this link includes the recently released 'Gate 2019 schedule: https://s3.amazonaws.com/gocolgateraiders.com/documents/2018/3/16/Colgate_Future_Football_Schedules_2018_19.pdf

[RichH2]

Foe anyone interested, this link includes the recently released 'Gate 2019 schedule: https://s3.amazonaws.com/gocolgateraiders.com/documents/2018/3/16/Colgate_Future_Football_Schedules_2018_19.pdf

Thanks Redux. Great OOC. Kinda jealous :), the only way I will know Lehigh's OOC this early is if our opponents post their schedules.

[carney2]

What was the purpose of the study again? It's been so long I forgot.

I assume this is a tongue in cheek comment, but just in case you're serious, or, just in case someone thinks you are, The Study is supposed to "identify strategic choices that can be made to enhance both the experience of our students and the competitiveness of the athletic teams." That from the woman who used to be in charge of handing out dorm room keys, and is now Chair of The Study committee.

[Gate83]

Thanks Redux. Great OOC. Kinda jealous :), the only way I will know Lehigh's OOC this early is if our opponents post their schedules.

So this year we finish our schedule with Army and then in '19 our last game is Lafayette, 2 years in a row where we finish the PL schedule a week early. Since we don't have a traditional rival for that last game it doesn't really matter, but interesting to note... I'll trade the late PL bye for a service academy game anytime.

[Colgate Raider Redux]

Thanks Redux. Great OOC. Kinda jealous :), the only way I will know Lehigh's OOC this early is if our opponents post their schedules.

I think it's important to note that 'Gate has been developing a consistent pattern in its O.O.C. scheduling: 1. An FBS game with an institution that is highly respected academically ( the academies ) or represents 'Gate's football history ( Syracuse, Buffalo). 2. 1 or 2 CAA teams, normally h&h. 3. An out-of-region FCS special situation or two, ( generally with a well respected academic institution like Furman, Cal Poly, etc. ) 4. The annual Cornell game approaching its 100th iteration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgate–Cornell_football_rivalry. 5. And possibly another Ivy

To maintain this pattern, concessions may lead to only 4 or 5 home games. I'm ok with that; others aren't. Unlike other PL schools, Hamilton, N.Y. presents a unique geographical challenge. Frankly, I think requiring a balance of home and away games would reduce desired opponent characteristics and hasten the extinction of Colgate football. Going back to the 1920's and for multiple decades thereafter, 'Gate regularly barnstormed around the country to play larger "national college football" schools, leading to regularly reduced home schedules. A tradition ? ( see historic schedules within Colgate Football history: https://s3.amazonaws.com/gocolgateraiders.com/documents/2017/7/20/FootballHistory_1_.pdf )

And with the current strategy of maintaining some academic quality srandards to O.O.C. scheduling, it's necessary to schedule teams where there's no immediate h & h reciprocity ( recently Wm & Mary, Dartmouth ).

I like the realism, logic and strategic thinking behind the schedulng.

[Lehigh'98]

I assume this is a tongue in cheek comment, but just in case you're serious, or, just in case someone thinks you are, The Study is supposed to "identify strategic choices that can be made to enhance both the experience of our students and the competitiveness of the athletic teams." That from the woman who used to be in charge of handing out dorm room keys, and is now Chair of The Study committee.

I was actually being serious. It's been so long, I forgot what the mission statement of the study was.

[RichH2]

I think it's important to note that 'Gate has been developing a consistent pattern in its O.O.C. scheduling: 1. An FBS game with an institution that is highly respected academically ( the academies ) or represents 'Gate's football history ( Syracuse, Buffalo). 2. 1 or 2 CAA teams, normally h&h. 3. An out-of-region FCS special situation or two, ( generally with a well respected academic institution like Furman, Cal Poly, etc. ) 4. The annual Cornell game approaching its 100th iteration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgate–Cornell_football_rivalry. And possibly another Ivy

To maintain this pattern, concessions may lead to only 4 or 5 home games. I'm ok with that; others aren't. Unlike other PL schools, Hamilton, N.Y. has a unique geographical challenge. Going back to the 1920's and for multiple decades thereafter, 'Gate regularly barnstormed around the country to play larger schools leading to regularly reduced home schedules. A tradition ?
And with the current strategy of maintaining some academic quality srandards to O.O.C. scheduling, it's necessary to schedule teams were there's no immediate h & h reciprocity ( recently Wm & Mary, Dartmouth ).

I like the logic and strategic thinking behind the schedulng.

An admirable plan. One I wish more PL teams would embrace. Lehigh sadly is stuck in neutral not so much with weak schedules but with boring ones. Joe and Andy refuse to look outside the northeast so far. I have no issue with our Penn and Princeton series or scheduling CAA teams. A few out of area H2Hs would be nice, ie Wofford,The Citadel and some one off FBS games every 2-3 years. Oh well, not likely any time soon.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I think it's important to note that 'Gate has been developing a consistent pattern in its O.O.C. scheduling: 1. An FBS game with an institution that is highly respected academically ( the academies ) or represents 'Gate's football history ( Syracuse, Buffalo). 2. 1 or 2 CAA teams, normally h&h. 3. A regional FCS special situation, ( generally with a well respected academic institution like Furman, Cal Poly, etc. ) 4. The annual Cornell game approaching its 100th iteration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgate–Cornell_football_rivalry. And possibly another Ivy

To maintain this pattern, concessions may lead to only 4 or 5 home games. I'm ok with that; others aren't. Unlike other PL schools, Hamilton, N.Y. has a unique geographical challenge. Going back to the 1920's and for multiple decades thereafter, 'Gate regularly barnstormed around the country to play larger schools leading to a reduced home schedule. A tradition ?And with the current strategy of maintaining some academic quality srandards to O.O.C. scheduling, it's necessary to schedule teams were there's n immediate h & h reciprocity ( recently Wm & Mary, Dartmouth ).

The PL's schools are really their own worst enemy when it comes to their stubbornness. Everyone knows your odds of winning are less on the road than they are on the home. But that's ok because Colgate is vicariously living their "days of "yore" by scheduling ultra aggressively 40+ years later. Wins don't matter as much as reliving the old days. If that's what you want that's fine. I think winning games and gaining relevancy in FCS is more important. Holy Cross is doing the same thing. Some of their fans would honestly rather go 4-7 every single year as long as they BC, UConn, Syracuse, Navy, Army etc.

All I know is win your OOC games! It does Colgate and the PL no good for the Raiders to lose OOC games. Likewise with Lehigh's and the rest of the PL's dreadful performance last years. Colgate going 1-4 in OOC year after year will become extremely embarrassing.

Colgate's 2018 OOC
@ UNH
@ Furman
@ W&M
Cornell
@ Army

2019
@ Air Force
@ William & Mary
Maine
@ Darmouth
@ Cornell

8 out of the Raiders next 10 OOC game on the road. You can brag all you want about how tough it is and how it reminds you of 1965. However, going 2-8 or 3-7 says something totally different to those not looking through Maroon and White glasses. Don't write checks your ass can't cash. That's all I'm saying.

[DFW HOYA]

Some of their fans would honestly rather go 4-7 every single year as long as they [play] BC, UConn, Syracuse, Navy, Army etc.

Still beats playing Marist...

[The Boogie Down]

Wins don't matter as much as reliving the old days. If that's what you want that's fine. I think winning games and gaining relevancy in FCS is more important. Holy Cross is doing the same thing. Some of their fans would honestly rather go 4-7 every single year as long as they BC, UConn, Syracuse, Navy, Army etc.

All I know is win your OOC games! That's all I'm saying.

Ya know there's a middle ground between the Colgate overreach and Lehigh cupcake ways of doing things. You can always count on at least one FBS on the Rams schedule but at least one NEC too. Two since Columbia stopped playing us.

[Colgate Raider Redux]

The PL's schools are really their own worst enemy when it comes to their stubbornness. Everyone knows your odds of winning are less on the road than they are on the home. But that's ok because Colgate is vicariously living their "days of "yore" by scheduling ultra aggressively 40+ years later. Wins don't matter as much as reliving the old days. If that's what you want that's fine. I think winning games and gaining relevancy in FCS is more important. Holy Cross is doing the same thing. Some of their fans would honestly rather go 4-7 every single year as long as they BC, UConn, Syracuse, Navy, Army etc.

All I know is win your OOC games! It does Colgate and the PL no good for the Raiders to lose OOC games. Likewise with Lehigh's and the rest of the PL's dreadful performance last years. Colgate going 1-4 in OOC year after year will become extremely embarrassing.

Colgate's 2018 OOC
@ UNH
@ Furman
@ W&M
Cornell
@ Army

2019
@ Air Force
@ William & Mary
Maine
@ Darmouth
@ Cornell

8 out of the Raiders next 10 OOC game on the road. You can brag all you want about how tough it is and how it reminds you of 1965. However, going 2-8 or 3-7 says something totally different to those not looking through Maroon and White glasses. Don't write checks your ass can't cash. That's all I'm saying.

1. Your anger seems disproportionate to the issue. I don't understand

2. Your argument will have more merit if the strategy, implemented as a multi-year initiative, doesn't pan out. We'll soon find out. ( Is there a strategic objective to Lehigh's O.O.C. scheduling ? A metric ? An institutional branding objective ? Tell me more--must be more than meets the eye ? )

3. You missed this part, which is very real for Colgate: "Unlike other PL schools, Hamilton, N.Y. has a unique geographical challenge. Frankly, I think requiring a balance of home and away games would hasten the extinction of Colgate football."

4. "Colgate is vicariously living their "days of "yore" by scheduling ultra aggressively 40+ years later. Wins don't matter as much as reliving the old days."
You've missed the academic overlay to the current strategy. Colgate has selectively chosen from its historic rivals to create O.O.C. scheduling that matches its current academic profile, strategic branding and aspirations.

5. I would be inclined to assess the futility of the "stretch" aspect of the scheduling if better records don't emerge over the next 1 to 3 years. This is a strategy that has been implemented over several years. The expectation is that results shouldn't be static. If they are, the preferred option might be to discontinue the sport, rather than suffer institutional embarrassment or live through a dilution of the brand. We're about to find out.

6. Your strategy, carefully developed over the years and reflective of Lehigh's aspirations, seems to be ok, yes ? Going some place with it, metrics in hand, yes ?

[DFW HOYA]

You missed this part, which is very real for Colgate: "Unlike other PL schools, Hamilton, N.Y. has a unique geographical challenge. Frankly, I think requiring a balance of home and away games would hasten the extinction of Colgate football."


I don't understand this. What challenge does Hamilton, NY have that Hanover, NH or Orono, ME (or for that matter, Pocatello, ID) do not? Are you suggesting traditional teams won't come to Hamilton, or that home attendance is insufficient to justify 5-6 home games a year?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Ya know there's a middle ground between the Colgate overreach and Lehigh cupcake ways of doing things. You can always count on at least one FBS on the Rams schedule but at least one NEC too. Two since Columbia stopped playing us.

Lehigh has not had cupcake schedules. They had one "off" year in 2012 which cost them greatly. That's the only reason for that narrative.

2010 - @ Drake, Villanova (defending champs), Princeton, @ UNH, @ Harvard
2011 - @ Monmouth, UNH, @ Princeton, Liberty, Yale
2012 - Monmouth, @ CCSU, Princeton, @ Liberty, @ Columbia
2013 - CCSU, @ Monmouth, @ Princeton, UNH, @ Columbia
2014 - JMU, @ UNH, @ Yale, Monmouth, @ Cornell
2015 - @ CCSU, @ JMU, Penn, @ Princeton, Yale
2016 - Monmouth, @ Villanova, @ Penn, Princeton, @ Yale
2017 - Villanova, @ Monmouth Yale, Penn, @ Wagner
2018 - St. Francis, Villanova, @ Navy, @ Penn, @ Princeton

[Colgate Raider Redux]

I don't understand this. What challenge does Hamilton, NY have that Hanover, NH or Orono, ME (or for that matter, Pocatello, ID) do not? Are you suggesting traditional teams won't come to Hamilton, or that home attendance is insufficient to justify 5-6 home games a year?

For simplicity sake, call it a Colgate niche, ok ?

All of the schools in the towns mentioned are free to develop strategies that continue to work for them. God bless 'em.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Your anger seems disproportionate to the issue. I don't understand

Your argument will have more merit if the strategy, implemented as a multi-year initiative, doesn't pan out. We'll soon find out. ( Is there a strategic objective to Lehigh's O.O.C. scheduling ? A metric ? )

You missed this part, which is very real for Colgate: "Unlike other PL schools, Hamilton, N.Y. has a unique geographical challenge. Frankly, I think requiring a balance of home and away games would hasten the extinction of Colgate football."

"Colgate is vicariously living their "days of "yore" by scheduling ultra aggressively 40+ years later. Wins don't matter as much as reliving the old days."
You've missed the academic overlay to the current strategy. Colgate has selectively chosen from its historic rivals to create O.O.C. scheduling that matches its academic profile and aspirations.

I would be inclined to assess the futility of the "stretch" aspect of the scheduling if better records don't emerge over the next 1 to 3 years. This is a srrategy that has been implemented over several years. The expectation is that results shouldn't be static. If they are, the preferred option might be to discontinue the sport, rather thn suffer institutional embarrassment or live through a dilution of the brand. We're about to find out.

Your strategy, carefully developed over the years and reflective of Lehigh's aspirations, seems to be ok, yes ? Going some place with it, metrics in hand, yes ?

It's frustrating to watch the PL football programs shoot themselves in the foot. We're on this thread talking about the league's struggles nationally. The reason for that is the built in hurdles the league faces. The absolute reality is the PL teams play a different game relative to the CAA, MVFC, BSC etc that. The lack of redshirting, smaller roster sizes, AI, budget crunching etc are REAL. Then I see Colgate's crazy OOC scheduling and I shake my head. Combine the PL handcuffs with extremely difficult schedules (2 home OOC games in 2 years, really??) and the deck becomes even more stacked. These games simply do not help Colgate unless they win them. Sure they're yet to be played but recent history is not in their favor. Colgate is not UNI or EWU taking on these schedules. Those schools are loaded with 5th year guys and transfers.

Last 5 years
2013: 1-5
2014: 2-3
2015: 1-4 (I'm only counting SCHEDULED OOC games)
2016: 1-3 (because Colgate decided to play a 10 game schedule, epic FAIL)
2017: 2-3

Wouldn't you agree that Colgate like the rest of the PL needs to win more games in the OOC? Wouldn't it help with national perception? Potential Playoff seeding? National Rankings?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

For simplicity sake, call it a Colgate niche, ok ?

All of the schools in the towns mentioned are free to develop strategies that continue to work for them. God bless 'em.

Colgate's niche/strategy has a resulted in a 7-18 OOC (.280 winning %) record the last 5 years. That's pathetic. Just like Lehigh's defense. Both things desperately need to improve for the sake of the PL. Agree?

[Gater]

It all depends on what you are looking for out of your program. The best teams in FCS play FBS schools. Seeing FCS scheduling through Temple U-colored glasses my taint this perspective but it's just the truth.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

It all depends on what you are looking for out of your program. The best teams in FCS play FBS schools. Seeing FCS scheduling through Temple U-colored glasses my taint this perspective but it's just the truth.

Which is true. And mediocre/decent teams like Colgate schedule them too. But unlike NDSU, UNI, EWU, JMU etc. the Raiders lose by 20+ points year after year. Likewise with Lehigh who is going to get embarrassed by Navy this year.

I would hope Colgate wants a program that can produce better than a .280 winning % in the OOC. Otherwise they have bar set extremely low or simply don't care about winning.

[Colgate Raider Redux]

Colgate's niche/strategy has a resulted in a 7-18 OOC (.280 winning %) record the last 5 years. That's pathetic. Just like Lehigh's defense. Both things desperately need to improve for the sake of the PL. Agree?

Well. we're both lucky then. We've both carefully executed a strategy that presumably has cumulative team football learning benefits built in. Of course that's totally separate from the branding and academic association thing. So, I agree. We're ready and expecting to see improvement in results immediately ahead. Feeling good--I know how it must feel for you---Lehigh has taken the risks, adjusted appropriately and is about to reap the rewards. So, we're all happy, right ?

The "desperately need to improve for the sake of the PL." thing isn't a part of my deliberations. Different strokes for different folks.

[Gater]

A belated sorry for your loss, ngineer.


As for the PL, the league has had full scholarships for two years. The lists that have been created showing how the PL has done in the playoffs over the past 10 years, etc. are the reason the league went scholarship and are in no way a predictor of future performance. HC and Lafayette both fired coaches they probably would have kept if not for making the investment in scholarships and having raised expectations. (Which is a very good thing for football fans.) Fordham had a great head coach (and was good when they did) and then had a not-so-great head coach. They may have dodged a bullet when he moved on. As I said about 400 posts ago in this thread, Lehigh, Fordham, and Colgate have been the only teams actively trying to win for the past seven or so years. Now, I think you can add in Holy Cross and Lafayette. That's five teams looking to compete for championships. That's a big shift for the league. Give Holy Cross and Lafayette two years and some good coaching and either team can compete nationally. (Last year's HC team could beat up on UCONN for 55 minutes and blew out UNH and was horrible after that--that's how fine the line is.)

Over the past three years Colgate has been leading or tied in the second half of 28 of 35 games they have played and that's including games against Navy, UNH, UNH, JMU, Sam Houston, Syracuse, Richmond, Cal Poly, Richmond, Buffalo, Furman. Take out the FBS schools and Colgate is leading or tied in 28 of 32 of their games at half. That means they are competing (and certainly tanking some of these games along the way). If Colgate can compete against these teams in the scholarship era, so can most everybody else in the PL. With five teams (now) actively trying to win, things will get better for the PL.

[RichH2]

And so the debate rages on :). Schedule up? Schedule status quo? I have no idea which in the long run is better for a program. As a fan, I really would like to see some variety as well as an occasional FBS game.

[Colgate Raider Redux]

And so the debate rages on :). Schedule up? Schedule status quo? I have no idea which in the long run is better for a program. As a fan, I really would like to see some variety as well as an occasional FBS game.

Though we want W's, we shouldn't pretend to be so "football pure" in our assessment of our O.O.C. scheduling strategies. There's a great deal of institutional branding that's built into the strategies of the individual schools. I respect Go Lehigh TU owl (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/member.php?107-Go-Lehigh-TU-owl)'s passionate critiques and think his breakdown of performance on the field is spot on so far. But, I think his comprehension of all of the variables ( branding, etc. ) that contribute to O.O.C. scheduling seems limited--almost naive. And I think having a plan--tweaking it as you go along--and dumping it if it doesn't work is critical. Colgate has been working a plan. It may not work. But, it has been a strategic plan.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

A belated sorry for your loss, ngineer.


As for the PL, the league has had full scholarships for two years. The lists that have been created showing how the PL has done in the playoffs over the past 10 years, etc. are the reason the league went scholarship and are in no way a predictor of future performance. HC and Lafayette both fired coaches they probably would have kept if not for making the investment in scholarships and having raised expectations. (Which is a very good thing for football fans.) Fordham had a great head coach (and was good when they did) and then had a not-so-great head coach. They may have dodged a bullet when he moved on. As I said about 400 posts ago in this thread, Lehigh, Fordham, and Colgate have been the only teams actively trying to win for the past seven or so years. Now, I think you can add in Holy Cross and Lafayette. That's five teams looking to compete for championships. That's a big shift for the league. Give Holy Cross and Lafayette two years and some good coaching and either team can compete nationally. (Last year's HC team could beat up on UCONN for 55 minutes and blew out UNH and was horrible after that--that's how fine the line is.)

Over the past three years Colgate has been leading or tied in the second half of 28 of 35 games they have played and that's including games against Navy, UNH, UNH, JMU, Sam Houston, Syracuse, Richmond, Cal Poly, Richmond, Buffalo, Furman. Take out the FBS schools and Colgate is leading or tied in 28 of 32 of their games at half. That means they are competing (and certainly tanking some of these games along the way). If Colgate can compete against these teams in the scholarship era, so can most everybody else in the PL. With five teams (now) actively trying to win, things will get better for the PL.

I agree with most of this in a perfect world but there's a few things....

- Holy Cross and Lafayette appear to have some fundamental issues with athletics. Carmody was going to return HC bball to the Willard years and 3 years later Crusader hoops are still terrible. Lafayette stinks in virtually every sport. People have been hoping for a consistent winner in Easton for decades. The 'Pards haven't posted a 9 win season in 37 years. 8 wins have been their ceiling in the PL era.

- The second paragraph is nearly identical to the narrative that existed without scholarships which was "Patriot League teams can hang in for a half, maybe 3 quarters, with elite teams but in the end they can't survive for 60 minutes and win". There' been enough moral victories over the last 20 years with or without scholarships. It would be nice to actually win these bigger OOC games at a respectable rate. At least sniff 50%?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Though we want W's, we shouldn't pretend to be so "football pure" in our assessment of our O.O.C. scheduling strategies. There's a great deal of institutional branding that's built into the strategies of the individual schools. I respect Go Lehigh TU owl (http://www.anygivensaturday.com/member.php?107-Go-Lehigh-TU-owl)'s passionate critiques and think his breakdown of performance on the field is spot on so far. But, I think his comprehension of all of the variables ( branding, etc. ) that contribute to O.O.C. scheduling seems limited--almost naive. And I think having a plan--tweaking it as you go along--and dumping it if it doesn't work is critical. Colgate has been working a plan. It may not work. But, it has been a strategic plan.

This is why this topic drives me crazy.

Lehigh and Colgate are the most successful programs in the league. Their success is in many ways directly related to the overall trajectory/positive perception of the Patriot League. If the PL wants to get in the business of earning at large bids, national rankings, playoff seeds (simply what I think everyone on here wants) then Lehigh and Colgate, along with everyone else, but especially the Mountain Hawks and Raiders, need to carry the banner for the league by WINNING.

Colgate can accomplish their goals with branding and maintaining some historical ties with balance. However, there hasn't been balance. They've completely gone over the top which has culminated in a terrible OOC record. As a result Colgate has really only had a few weeks of national relevancy the last several years. There's some irony in the fact Colgate's ambitious scheduling to increase their "brand" has done nothing to enhance Colgate's perception/brand in the FCS ranks. Their 7-4 2017 PL Co-Champ 2017 carries virtually no weight nationally heading into this year. The only way Colgate's increasing their FCS brand is by beating Furman, W&M and UNH on the field. I'd argue that an AD and fans at some of these schools look at the Colgate "brand" as their "cupcake" OOC game from the weak PL. I.E a team that will go on the road (cool with no H&H's) for an almost certain (.280 winning %) loss.

They enter 2018 off a 7-4 year. However, another bad OOC showing in September and Colgate will once again be irrelevant nationally. The trickle down affect will hurt the league. Just like Lehigh's pathetic defense and ugly playoff showings in '16/'17 hurts the league.

Also, the fact that Colgate is so willing to play their OOC games on the road makes me seriously question how committed they are to bidding on home playoff games.

It all comes down to what you want from PL football and what expectations you had when scholarships were first introduced. What I see is a disjointed effort headed nowhere nationally. There's just so many self-inflicted restrictions and bizarre ideology that exists imo. The conference has a horrific identity crisis when it comes to FCS football.

[PAllen]

The PL's schools are really their own worst enemy when it comes to their stubbornness. Everyone knows your odds of winning are less on the road than they are on the home. But that's ok because Colgate is vicariously living their "days of "yore" by scheduling ultra aggressively 40+ years later. Wins don't matter as much as reliving the old days. If that's what you want that's fine. I think winning games and gaining relevancy in FCS is more important. Holy Cross is doing the same thing. Some of their fans would honestly rather go 4-7 every single year as long as they BC, UConn, Syracuse, Navy, Army etc.

All I know is win your OOC games! It does Colgate and the PL no good for the Raiders to lose OOC games. Likewise with Lehigh's and the rest of the PL's dreadful performance last years. Colgate going 1-4 in OOC year after year will become extremely embarrassing.

Colgate's 2018 OOC
@ UNH
@ Furman
@ W&M
Cornell
@ Army

2019
@ Air Force
@ William & Mary
Maine
@ Darmouth
@ Cornell

8 out of the Raiders next 10 OOC game on the road. You can brag all you want about how tough it is and how it reminds you of 1965. However, going 2-8 or 3-7 says something totally different to those not looking through Maroon and White glasses. Don't write checks your ass can't cash. That's all I'm saying.

I see no reason why Colgate can't be competitive in every one of those games, with at least a decent shot at winning 4 out of the 5 each year.

[van]

I think Owl underestimates the desire of the PL Presidents to brand themselves as academic institutions with only a limited concession to athletic excellence, I believe that the ability to balance athletic and academic excellence is a very complex challenge, some schools do it better than others, and some schools have institutional situations that make it more difficult

[PAllen]

It's frustrating to watch the PL football programs shoot themselves in the foot. We're on this thread talking about the league's struggles nationally. The reason for that is the built in hurdles the league faces. The absolute reality is the PL teams play a different game relative to the CAA, MVFC, BSC etc that. The lack of redshirting, smaller roster sizes, AI, budget crunching etc are REAL. Then I see Colgate's crazy OOC scheduling and I shake my head. Combine the PL handcuffs with extremely difficult schedules (2 home OOC games in 2 years, really??) and the deck becomes even more stacked. These games simply do not help Colgate unless they win them. Sure they're yet to be played but recent history is not in their favor. Colgate is not UNI or EWU taking on these schedules. Those schools are loaded with 5th year guys and transfers.

Last 5 years
2013: 1-5
2014: 2-3
2015: 1-4 (I'm only counting SCHEDULED OOC games)
2016: 1-3 (because Colgate decided to play a 10 game schedule, epic FAIL)
2017: 2-3

Wouldn't you agree that Colgate like the rest of the PL needs to win more games in the OOC? Wouldn't it help with national perception? Potential Playoff seeding? National Rankings?

I'm sorry, but us Lehigh fans are in no place to argue OOC performance with anybody right now.

[van]

I see no reason why Colgate can't be competitive in every one of those games, with at least a decent shot at winning 4 out of the 5 each year.

would be shocked it Gate can win 8 of 10 of those games, the best Gate teams of the past 20 years might be able to

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I think Owl underestimates the desire of the PL Presidents to brand themselves as academic institutions with only a limited concession to athletic excellence, I believe that the ability to balance athletic and academic excellence is a very complex challenge, some schools do it better than others, and some schools have institutional situations that make it more difficult

I completely understand it. Well as much as one can without being in "the room". I constantly refer to everything you said. The lack of redshirts, AI, limited roster sizes, coaching salaries etc are the tangible things that make life more difficult. I think everyone recognizes that. Then there's institutional hurdles at HC and Lafayette that are well documented. Georgetown's issues have beaten to death. Bucknell's apparent indifference is often mocked by people on here.

I've often mention how the PL's biggest problem is the struggle of finding an identity. Given the individual complexities that exist at each school it's hard to see the PL ever truly leaving their own never-ever-land that's somewhere between the Ivy League, NEC and CAA.

[Gater]

Colgate's niche/strategy has a resulted in a 7-18 OOC (.280 winning %) record the last 5 years. That's pathetic. Just like Lehigh's defense. Both things desperately need to improve for the sake of the PL. Agree?

It's so great that you won't include Colgate's playoff wins because it hurts your numbers.

How many people here agree with the Temple grad that Patriot League schools shouldn't play tough schedules/FBS schools? It's got to be about zero percent. Go Owls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Boogie Down]

Lehigh has not had cupcake schedules. They had one "off" year in 2012 which cost them greatly. That's the only reason for that narrative.

2010 - @ Drake, Villanova (defending champs), Princeton, @ UNH, @ Harvard
2011 - @ Monmouth, UNH, @ Princeton, Liberty, Yale
2012 - Monmouth, @ CCSU, Princeton, @ Liberty, @ Columbia
2013 - CCSU, @ Monmouth, @ Princeton, UNH, @ Columbia
2014 - JMU, @ UNH, @ Yale, Monmouth, @ Cornell
2015 - @ CCSU, @ JMU, Penn, @ Princeton, Yale
2016 - Monmouth, @ Villanova, @ Penn, Princeton, @ Yale
2017 - Villanova, @ Monmouth Yale, Penn, @ Wagner
2018 - St. Francis, Villanova, @ Navy, @ Penn, @ Princeton

For those scoring at home, that's 9 FBS opponents for Fordham (UConn, Armyx4, Cincy, Temple, Navy, UNCC) and 1 for Lehigh (Navy) during the period listed above.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

It's so great that you won't include Colgate's playoff wins because it hurts your numbers.

How many people here agree with the Temple grad that Patriot League schools shouldn't play tough schedules/FBS schools? It's got to be about zero percent. Go Owls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Because Colgate didn't schedule those games! To compare a scheduled OOC game to a randomly selected playoff game is absurd. The two have literally nothing to do with one another.

I have no problems with tough OOC schedules. What I have a problem is mediocre FCS programs scheduling tough and losing nearly 3/4 of those games. Like I said the answer to this simple, Colgate needs to with the games. Stop being a cupcake.

[Colgate Raider Redux]

I think Owl underestimates the desire of the PL Presidents to brand themselves as academic institutions with only a limited concession to athletic excellence, I believe that the ability to balance athletic and academic excellence is a very complex challenge, some schools do it better than others, and some schools have institutional situations that make it more difficult

I agree with you. Owl needs to accept that for some schools it's not just black and white W's & L's.. However, at some point consistent failure to win some % of the O.O.C. games (against institutions providing good academic vibes and "stretchiness" ) becomes ineffective brand positioning. Not just bad football performance. And changes to the strategy will take place. Perhaps even dropping the sport because the "brand positioning" won't work with a different set of opponents. But losing to the carefully selected "balanced" schools provides more time for the administration to evaluate the strategy than if it was just willy-nilly losing football games, outside of an institutional strategy.

This may not be the case at Lehigh. And, it may not make sense to Owl. That's okay by me.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

For those scoring at home, that's 9 FBS opponents for Fordham (UConn, Armyx4, Cincy, Temple, Navy, UNCC) and 1 for Lehigh (Navy) during the period listed above.

Last I checked Lehigh is FCS. Scheduling teams from another subdivision has nothing to do with being a quality FCS program. For the most part they're paycheck games that PL schools schedule to subsidize operational costs. History has proven the FCS teams, and especially PL programs, have very little chance to win unless you play a complete dreg (Buffalo in '02, '03, Temple '12 and Army '15). Colgate's recent FBS performances have been non-competitive. Lets see if Colgate does better than Fordham's 64-6 loss to Army last year when they head to West Point to close out the 2018 regular season.

Just win baby...

BTW, Fordham's recent OOC performance has been MUCH better than Colgate's. They've had some wins that have raised their profile as well as the league's. Colgate has not done that in the OOC. At least as of yet. Neither has Lehigh in recent years. Hopefully 2018 is the year fortunes turn for the better for both. It's hard to do much worse than the 2-8 (wins coming against 1-10 Cal Poly and 3-7 Cornell) the two combined for last year. But sadly, I think it's possible for similar results this year.

September can't come soon enough. Will Lehigh's defense continue to be a joke?!?! Can Colgate build off of their 7-4 season?!? Soon, we'll have answers...soon...

[RichH2]

I think Owl underestimates the desire of the PL Presidents to brand themselves as academic institutions with only a limited concession to athletic excellence, I believe that the ability to balance athletic and academic excellence is a very complex challenge, some schools do it better than others, and some schools have institutional situations that make it more difficult

With some variation from school to school, an absolutely correct overview of PL. The key to our discussion is"with limited concession to athletic excellence". Actually , I have no issue with rules that serve academic success but also have a limiting impact on athletics. The current restrictive PL bylaws do not serve any actual utility for academics.
Roster and scholarship caps and redshirting are financial restrictions on the cost of football.
The Academic Index?? While it refers to academics as a motivation, its sole purpose is competitive balance among institutions with variations in admittance requirements. It was the Fordham Rule. Now perhaps it is the Loyola-Boston U. Rule.

[van]

With some variation from school to school, an absolutely correct overview of PL. The key to our discussion is"with limited concession to athletic excellence". Actually , I have no issue with rules that serve academic success but also have a limiting impact on athletics. The current restrictive PL bylaws do not serve any actual utility for academics.
Roster and scholarship caps and redshirting are financial restrictions on the cost of football.
The Academic Index?? While it refers to academics as a motivation, its sole purpose is competitive balance among institutions with variations in admittance requirements. It was the Fordham Rule. Now perhaps it is the Loyola-Boston U. Rule.

totally agree that roster and scholarship caps and redshirting are financial restrictions on the cost of football. while some PL schools may have deep enough pockets to increase roster sizes, add scholarships and/or pay for 5th years, others definitely do not, like it or not, PL rules are compromises among the various institutions aimed at maintaining a level playing field in the conference (Hoyas excepted), Fordham forced the scholarship issue and the league agreed to go along rather than see Rams leave, Hoyas agreed to stay without the scholarships mostly because they had no other good options, as we have discussed many times (ad nauseam in fact) there are no candidates for football membership beating on the door to join so whatever compromises are needed to keep the flock together, so shall it be

[Gate83]

Wow, step away for an afternoon and a whole bunch of old battles get re-fought! Only point I'd add is Gate can't go completely back to traditional scheduling philosophy since the Ivies (other than Cornell) won't play us anymore. I'd rather play Furman & W&M vs. St Francis and Wagner but if W's are the only goal, feel free to pile 'em up.

Regarding FBS games, our players, coaches, fans/alumni all love them even if they end up as losses, the idea of testing yourself versus the "level up" is baked into Gate's DNA. How that affects the rest of the PL isn't really our concern.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Wow, step away for an afternoon and a whole bunch of old battles get re-fought! Only point I'd add is Gate can't go completely back to traditional scheduling philosophy since the Ivies (other than Cornell) won't play us anymore. I'd rather play Furman & W&M vs. St Francis and Wagner but if W's are the only goal, feel free to pile 'em up.

Regarding FBS games, our players, coaches, fans/alumni all love them even if they end up as losses, the idea of testing yourself versus the "level up" is baked into Gate's DNA. How that affects the rest of the PL isn't really our concern.

Patriot League Co-Champ Lehigh lost to Wagner last season and St. Francis/Lehigh this year is likely a toss-up. Colgate-St. Francis would also be basically a toss-up in 2018. St. Francis is not beneath Colgate's on the field product at this point. The Red Flashes would have competed for the PL title in recent years.

[Gate83]

Patriot League Co-Champ Lehigh lost to Wagner last season and St. Francis/Lehigh this year is likely a toss-up. Colgate-St. Francis would also be basically a toss-up in 2018. St. Francis is not beneath Colgate's on the field product at this point. The Red Flashes would have competed for the PL title in recent years.

Was not trying to impugn St Francis, good luck this year. Hope you win! Our games vs. NEC opponents have been roundly greeted with yawns versus enthusiasm for the CAA/FBS strategy. You'll have to check with the Lehigh fans/alumni/coaches/players to see which they'd prefer...

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Was not trying to impugn St Francis, good luck this year. Hope you win! Our games vs. NEC opponents have been roundly greeted with yawns versus enthusiasm for the CAA/FBS strategy. You'll have to check with the Lehigh fans/alumni/coaches/players to see which they'd prefer...

I love how a PL program thinks they're too good, or above playing, NEC teams occasionally. Does Colgate really have that much of an inflated (out of touch) view of themselves and their place in the FCS world? I mean they themselves come from one of the weakest conferences in the country. Hell, the PL was ranked below the NEC in last year Sagarin Rankings.

If nothing else, Colgate is the "Toothpaste" school from the lowly PL to a lot of the teams/fans they play. I'm sure Air Force fans/players will greet the addition of FCS Colgate with "yawns and indifference". You're definitely the local cupcake to Syracuse fans when it comes to bball and football (i'm sure other sports too). To UNH, W&M and the rest of the CAA fans you're a circled "must win" on the schedule right until otherwise proven differently. Furman can't embarrass themselves and SoCon by losing to a PL team right? Just like it is with Lehigh and the rest of the PL right now.

[Gate83]

I love how a PL program thinks they're too good, or above playing, NEC teams occasionally. Does Colgate really have that much of an inflated (out of touch) view of themselves and their place in the FCS world? I mean they themselves come from one of the weakest conferences in the country. Hell, the PL was ranked below the NEC in last year Sagarin Rankings.

If nothing else, Colgate is the "Toothpaste" school from the lowly PL to a lot of the teams/fans they play. I'm sure Air Force fans/players will greet the addition of FCS Colgate with "yawns and indifference". You're definitely the local cupcake to Syracuse fans when it comes to bball and football (i'm sure other sports too). To UNH, W&M and the rest of the CAA fans you're a circled "must win" on the schedule right until otherwise proven differently. Furman can't embarrass themselves and SoCon by losing to a PL team right? Just like it is with Lehigh and the rest of the PL right now.

I was at the Air Force game in 2013, it was a great experience. Their fans couldn't have been more welcoming, our fans loved the experience & couldn't wait to thank the AF players & parents for their service. Same with Navy in 2015, and all the Army games I've been to historically. You should go to a service academy game sometime, maybe you'd understand that wins & losses aren't the only things that matter.

As to the rest of it, why so grumpy? You should get off the idea that the PL is an "entity," each school does what's best for itself. For us, that's playing the best competition as often as we can & enjoying the challenge. Suspect many LU fans would like to do the same, they certainly don't mind playing up on the wrestling mats.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I was at the Air Force game in 2013, it was a great experience. Their fans couldn't have been more welcoming, our fans loved the experience & couldn't wait to thank the AF players & parents for their service. Same with Navy in 2015, and all the Army games I've been to historically. You should go to a service academy game sometime, maybe you'd understand that wins & losses aren't the only things that matter.

As to the rest of it, why so grumpy? You should get off the idea that the PL is an "entity," each school does what's best for itself. For us, that's playing the best competition as often as we can & enjoying the challenge. Suspect many LU fans would like to do the same, they certainly don't mind playing up on the wrestling mats.

I've been to West Point twice for games while Navy is conference mates with Temple in the AAC for football. We played the Middies two years ago in Annapolis for the AAC Title. As a lifelong ND fan I've always respected the service academies. Wins and losses might not be the only thing that matter but they still matter a helluva lot. Those that attend the academies are as motivated and driven as they come. They don't like to lose/fail no matter the odds or circumstances. But yes, service academies are great places to visit for a game. I can definitely see the attraction of attending a game at one given the environment and history. But going to see your team lose and most likely, lose badly, isn't all that enjoyable. You couldn't pay me to go to sweat my butt of in hot and muggy Annapolis to watch Lehigh lose by 50 this year. Navy>>>>Anyone in the PL. It's men vs children.

I'm not grumpy but I want the PL to get better. Seeing Colgate continue to roll out these OOC schedules that contain games they lose nearly 75% of the time is extremely frustrating. It's not helping Colgate's brand/perception or the Patriot League's brand/perception to schedule games they haven't proven they can win at respectable rate. Likewise with Lehigh's sorry excuse for a defense the last 5 seasons, two horrific playoff losses and entering the playoffs with a 5-6 record. Just a lot of yuck lately. The league has no positive mojo heading into 2018. The only way for the PL to earn some respect is to win games in September. If it doesn't the league will, and justifiably so, be laughed at once again.

No way would I call what Lehigh does as scheduling "up" in wrestling. They're legitimately a Top 20 wrestling program year in and year out. Likewise for the top PL Lax programs scheduling other top Lax programs. They're actually playing their peers. Air Force, Army and Navy are not Colgate's peers. They're in two separate subdivisions thus compete for different titles and postseason awards/superlatives.

[Go...gate]

Wow, step away for an afternoon and a whole bunch of old battles get re-fought! Only point I'd add is Gate can't go completely back to traditional scheduling philosophy since the Ivies (other than Cornell) won't play us anymore. I'd rather play Furman & W&M vs. St Francis and Wagner but if W's are the only goal, feel free to pile 'em up.

Regarding FBS games, our players, coaches, fans/alumni all love them even if they end up as losses, the idea of testing yourself versus the "level up" is baked into Gate's DNA. How that affects the rest of the PL isn't really our concern.

Brian W, Casey, Colgate's new President, recently described the Colgate DNA - and how Colgate is seen and sees itself - thusly:

"The university has long had a larger student body and faculty than those institutions to which it is most often compared. Its cultural feel - based this scale and the activities of the campus, including its athletics program - can often make Colgate seem less like Williams or Swarthmore colleges and more like Dartmouth College or Duke University." (Colgate University's Third Century: A Vision Statement, Page 4 (Colgate University Press, 2018)).

[Gater]

Owl Fan, every kid who plays FCS football wants to play these games. Every FCS team that has ever played competed for a national championship plays these games. If you want to be good you play them. You are so ready to be embarrassed. When I played for Colgate (a long time ago) we lost to #3 Syracuse. The game wasn't close. And it was awesome. We got to play in the dome. We played against a bunch of future NFL guys (we had three of our own on that team). I don't remember much of the win against Brown or the shellacking we put on Davidson. But the Syracuse game was awesome. And we probably never had a shot--probably--and that's the fun part. I'd much rather be at the plate taking a swing at a major league pitcher's best than sitting on the bench worried about being ashamed that I struck out on three pitches. As for the last game against Syracuse, Colgate had the lead in the first and was down 20-7 at half. They lost 33-7 and were disappointed. That is all nothing but a win for Colgate. Seems like if that happened to Lehigh you'd wear a veil to work.

Colgate's schedule is too hard because it is playing a slightly easier schedule than every team in the CAA? You can complain about every other part of the league, but Colgate's scheduling is exactly what a team that wants to compete for a national championship should be doing. I mean, name the last FCS champ not to play FBS teams? It's what the good teams do--and then maybe you don't freak out when you play JMU in the playoffs in front of 18k--because it isn't unusual.

Also, history proves nadda when it comes to PL vs. FBS teams. The PL is now a full scholarship league. It has been for TWO YEARS. The league went scholarship to get better so previous results only show you that the schools wanted something to change.

You are wrong about all of this. It's just that simple. '83 is going to polite you to death over it but I'll go as far as to say that if there is a single poster from any team on this entire board who agrees with you that FCS schools who want to be good shouldn't play FBS schools, I'll buy a Temple sweatshirt and wear it to every Lehigh game I go to next year.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Gater,

I totally get as a player wanting that "one shining moment" of playing a FBS school. The vast majority of PL players are not good enough to play FBS football. So getting a shot to play a FBS teams team as a FCS player is the closest thing they'll ever get to living out that dream. You and teammates got shellacked because you and your teammates were vastly inferior. If I'm a Syracuse player i'd love a chance to beat up on a tomato can like you guys must have been. I mean how many times do you get to kick someones ass and have them say they enjoyed it? I'm pretty sure Bob Knight once made a really non-PC comment that I could relate to that.

The last team who won the national title but didn't play a FBS game? NDSU in 2017. Before that? NDSU in 2015. Given Colgate's recent performance and the PL's built in restriction I think it's delusional for Colgate to say they're trying to compete for a national title. The PL needs to raise their game big time(likely loosen the redshirt/AI) before I'll take such "goals" as possible. Until they start getting seeding, bidding and winning home playoff games, winning key OOC games in this era of FCS that's nothing but a pipe dream for Colgate, Lehigh and everyone else in the PL. Colgate couldn't beat NDSU's 3rd stringers...lol

There is absolutely ZERO correlation between playing FBS games and being a quality FCS program. If anyone can provide one I'll buy them a car....

[Go...gate]

Owl Fan, every kid who plays FCS football wants to play these games. Every FCS team that has ever played competed for a national championship plays these games. If you want to be good you play them. You are so ready to be embarrassed. When I played for Colgate (a long time ago) we lost to #3 Syracuse. The game wasn't close. And it was awesome. We got to play in the dome. We played against a bunch of future NFL guys (we had three of our own on that team). I don't remember much of the win against Brown or the shellacking we put on Davidson. But the Syracuse game was awesome. And we probably never had a shot--probably--and that's the fun part. I'd much rather be at the plate taking a swing at a major league pitcher's best than sitting on the bench worried about being ashamed that I struck out on three pitches. As for the last game against Syracuse, Colgate had the lead in the first and was down 20-7 at half. They lost 33-7 and were disappointed. That is all nothing but a win for Colgate. Seems like if that happened to Lehigh you'd wear a veil to work.

Colgate's schedule is too hard because it is playing a slightly easier schedule than every team in the CAA? You can complain about every other part of the league, but Colgate's scheduling is exactly what a team that wants to compete for a national championship should be doing. I mean, name the last FCS champ not to play FBS teams? It's what the good teams do--and then maybe you don't freak out when you play JMU in the playoffs in front of 18k--because it isn't unusual.

Also, history proves nadda when it comes to PL vs. FBS teams. The PL is now a full scholarship league. It has been for TWO YEARS. The league went scholarship to get better so previous results only show you that the schools wanted something to change.

You are wrong about all of this. It's just that simple. '83 is going to polite you to death over it but I'll go as far as to say that if there is a single poster from any team on this entire board who agrees with you that FCS schools who want to be good shouldn't play FBS schools, I'll buy a Temple sweatshirt and wear it to every Lehigh game I go to next year.

Gater, you referring to the 1987 season? That was a hell of a Red Raider club. 7-4, lost to I-A #3 Syracuse, Duke, Holy Cross (the top ranked I-AA club) and Lehigh (by a 7-0 score - no trouble with Engineer defenses in those days!). IIRC, we beat Brown in a mud bowl at Providence in '86 and Davidson at home in a blizzard in '88.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Gater, you referring to the 1987 season? That was a hell of a Red Raider club. 7-4, lost to I-A #3 Syracuse, Duke, Holy Cross (the top ranked I-AA club) and Lehigh (by a 7-0 score - no trouble with Engineer defenses in those days!). IIRC, we beat Brown in a mud bowl at Providence in '86 and Davidson at home in a blizzard in '88.

He has to be. As soon as he said Davidson/#3 Syracuse I immediately thought of '87. Dick MacPherson and Don McPherson! Their game against WVU that year is legendary.

I thought '92, Graves senior year, was going to be a duplicate of '87. Then Ohio State happened.

[PAllen]

I was at the Air Force game in 2013, it was a great experience. Their fans couldn't have been more welcoming, our fans loved the experience & couldn't wait to thank the AF players & parents for their service. Same with Navy in 2015, and all the Army games I've been to historically. You should go to a service academy game sometime, maybe you'd understand that wins & losses aren't the only things that matter.

As to the rest of it, why so grumpy? You should get off the idea that the PL is an "entity," each school does what's best for itself. For us, that's playing the best competition as often as we can & enjoying the challenge. Suspect many LU fans would like to do the same, they certainly don't mind playing up on the wrestling mats.

Yup, I sure would have loved a shot at Penn State in 2000 or 2001, or even for a few years after that. We probably would have lost, but we had teams that could have made it interesting. Alas, you have to schedule those games years in advance and Penn State was a top 10-15 team in the 90s. I'm certainly not promoting going after games with Penn St. However, Rutgers and even Maryland should definitely be on speed dial.

[Gate83]

I've been to West Point twice for games while Navy is conference mates with Temple in the AAC for football. We played the Middies two years ago in Annapolis for the AAC Title. As a lifelong ND fan I've always respected the service academies. Wins and losses might not be the only thing that matter but they still matter a helluva lot. Those that attend the academies are as motivated and driven as they come. They don't like to lose/fail no matter the odds or circumstances. But yes, service academies are great places to visit for a game. I can definitely see the attraction of attending a game at one given the environment and history. But going to see your team lose and most likely, lose badly, isn't all that enjoyable. You couldn't pay me to go to sweat my butt of in hot and muggy Annapolis to watch Lehigh lose by 50 this year. Navy>>>>Anyone in the PL. It's men vs children.

I'm not grumpy but I want the PL to get better. Seeing Colgate continue to roll out these OOC schedules that contain games they lose nearly 75% of the time is extremely frustrating. It's not helping Colgate's brand/perception or the Patriot League's brand/perception to schedule games they haven't proven they can win at respectable rate. Likewise with Lehigh's sorry excuse for a defense the last 5 seasons, two horrific playoff losses and entering the playoffs with a 5-6 record. Just a lot of yuck lately. The league has no positive mojo heading into 2018. The only way for the PL to earn some respect is to win games in September. If it doesn't the league will, and justifiably so, be laughed at once again.

No way would I call what Lehigh does as scheduling "up" in wrestling. They're legitimately a Top 20 wrestling program year in and year out. Likewise for the top PL Lax programs scheduling other top Lax programs. They're actually playing their peers. Air Force, Army and Navy are not Colgate's peers. They're in two separate subdivisions thus compete for different titles and postseason awards/superlatives.

You're making my point. As well as Go's quote regarding the importance of athletics in Casey's vision statement, our applications are up 13% this a year, a record; contributions to our President's Club, which make up 87% of annual giving, are up over $3 million year to year and is pulling from the largest group of donors we've ever had and is particularly growing among young alumni. Colgate's "brand/perception" is doing fine, thanks, as we execute the strategy Redux mentioned about 5 pages back.

I'd also point out that our women's hockey team which was a laughingstock as recently as 5 years ago didn't accept the status quo and try to schedule accordingly. They got the right coach, played the best schedule they could, improved steadily & as you know just played for a national championship. Tear your hair out about restrictions if you'd like to, I'll stick with the idea that to be the best you should play the best. It's more fun that way, win or lose. You should try it!

[DFW HOYA]

You're making my point. As well as Go's quote regarding the importance of athletics in Casey's vision statement, our applications are up 13% this a year, a record; contributions to our President's Club, which make up 87% of annual giving, are up over $3 million year to year and is pulling from the largest group of donors we've ever had and is particularly growing among young alumni. Colgate's "brand/perception" is doing fine, thanks, as we execute the strategy Redux mentioned about 5 pages back.

Good for Colgate, but one could infer that the other six schools seem to be going in six different directions. Lafayette, Bucknell, Georgetown... what's their vision statement?

[RichH2]

About time for a break between rounds of this bout :)
Seems the debate is focusing on the wrong end of the stick. However, we agree or disagree with the scheduling philosophy of Gate and Lehigh, there is no doubt that they are both striving to win. I agree with owl to the extent that overloading a schedule with Ls does litlle to help that program regardless of the perception of alums and players. However, PL is perceived nationally as a weak conference partly because our SOS is rated as weak and as a conference we are lucky to break even in those games. Upgrading our OOC is essential first step followed by winning more of those games. Having a few FBS each year improves our conference SOS and the egos of alums and desires of the players. The key, however , for the PL is to beat CAA teams and top IL teams more often. Given our self imposed restrictions we have very little room for error either in recruiting or hiring. More difficult is not impossible. I look forward to the possibility that the Presidents will act but until then I see no reason to focus on what we cant do. I really like our PL. I am not nearly as sanguine as some about our future even under these rules. That Cross and Lafayette have joined Gate Fordham and Lehigh is more relevant to our national perception than those rules. As our last 2 recruiting classes become juniors and recruiting keeps pace, PL will be competitive.

[Doc QB]

As a long time childhood Lehigh fan, player, armchair fan again, and even LU radio broadcaster (ESPN Lehigh Valley)...I am envious of what Colgate is doing and applaud it. They may take their lumps. They may dial back if the losses mount. I think they will grow. BUT...they are scheduling tougher, and have given themselves a chance to change their own program and perhaps league perception. You don't even have the chance unless you take it. One has to wonder, if the whole league took this stance, wouldn't competitiveness improve overall, and a 7-4 league champ maybe wouldn't be a playoff cupcake because they were more battle tested?

[RichH2]

I noticed NDSU is not having a Spring game. Last year LU put on a structured scrimmage in lieu of a "game".
Are there any actual Spring games planned for PL squads?

[Go...gate]

Good for Colgate, but one could infer that the other six schools seem to be going in six different directions. Lafayette, Bucknell, Georgetown... what's their vision statement?

I believe if GU could get the MSF squared away and find the $$ to fund even 40 scholarships, they might dominate the league as Holy Cross did at one time.

[RichH2]

I believe if GU could get the MSF squared away and find the $$ to fund even 40 scholarships, they might dominate the league as Holy Cross did at one time.

Yup. Little doubt they could contest Title pretty regularly with added funding.

[Go...gate]

Wow, step away for an afternoon and a whole bunch of old battles get re-fought! Only point I'd add is Gate can't go completely back to traditional scheduling philosophy since the Ivies (other than Cornell) won't play us anymore. I'd rather play Furman & W&M vs. St Francis and Wagner but if W's are the only goal, feel free to pile 'em up.

Regarding FBS games, our players, coaches, fans/alumni all love them even if they end up as losses, the idea of testing yourself versus the "level up" is baked into Gate's DNA. How that affects the rest of the PL isn't really our concern.

Which is a damn shame and short-sighted by the Ivy League.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

As a long time childhood Lehigh fan, player, armchair fan again, and even LU radio broadcaster (ESPN Lehigh Valley)...I am envious of what Colgate is doing and applaud it. They may take their lumps. They may dial back if the losses mount. I think they will grow. BUT...they are scheduling tougher, and have given themselves a chance to change their own program and perhaps league perception. You don't even have the chance unless you take it. One has to wonder, if the whole league took this stance, wouldn't competitiveness improve overall, and a 7-4 league champ maybe wouldn't be a playoff cupcake because they were more battle tested?

The best thing is they're either going to sink or swim!! They're either going to continue to lose these games at an alarming rate or they'll win and change the narrative!! Right now the PL is considered weak. A big reason for that is the two most successful programs have overall struggled a bit the last 4-5 years. There's been some good but quite a bit of ugly that has overshadowed the little bit of good. The two main reasons for that imo? Lehigh's terrible defense and Colgate's poor OOC performance. It's time to prove Colgate is more than capable of making a phone call to schedule these game by winning some! If they don't their reputation as well as the league's will continue to plummet. It's sweet because they get to lie in their bed one way or another! Likewise with Lehigh! I can't wait to see if Lehigh's defense will continue to be an embarrassment! Maybe Lehigh's defense improve to compliment the offense enough to make a run? Perhaps Colgate FINALLY posts a winning OOC record to propel them to a PL title or an at-large bid and some regular season respect?

I'd argue a 7-4 league champ could be a playoff at-large team if they went 8-3 and won a meaningful OOC game along the way. Putting together a 7 win season that likely (given the 6 PL conference games) yielded little in the OOC isn't going to get you far.

I wish there were some really good analytics people who could figure out how big of a handicap not redshirting, limited transfers, smaller roster sizes and the AI are. In terms of W/L% how much do those factors affect it? IMO, there has to be a metric that indicates what type of handicap the PL schools, NEC (based on their restrictions) and PFL (based on their restrictions) schools have relative to the CAA, MVC, BSC etc. Then do it again for FBS games. Some type of "wins above replacement" measurement?

It's my belief, and I've stood fast on this for years because of the analytic/statistic side of things, is that the PL is playing with a short deck. They're fighting an AK with a revolver. When it comes to the FBS games they're fighting an AK with a muzzle loader. Sure they can succeed but they need to be calculated and virtually perfect in order to do so. It's my belief Colgate's fortunes overall will not change in the OOC if they continue to schedule as they do. Not only are they handicapped by certain league restrictions by playing 8/10 games on the road they've added in another handicap. The 5 year trend of losing will continue unless other factors league wide that give Colgate another ace or two up their sleeve.

I love this topic. I think it's fascinating....

[PAllen]

I believe if GU could get the MSF squared away and find the $$ to fund even 40 scholarships, they might dominate the league as Holy Cross did at one time.

Flew over MSF on Monday night heading into Reagan, it just looks pathetic now. If they don't truly upgrade from it's current state soon, then they might as well just shut the program down.

[Gater]

Gater,

I totally get as a player wanting that "one shining moment" of playing a FBS school. The vast majority of PL players are not good enough to play FBS football. So getting a shot to play a FBS teams team as a FCS player is the closest thing they'll ever get to living out that dream. You and teammates got shellacked because you and your teammates were vastly inferior. If I'm a Syracuse player i'd love a chance to beat up on a tomato can like you guys must have been. I mean how many times do you get to kick someones ass and have them say they enjoyed it? I'm pretty sure Bob Knight once made a really non-PC comment that I could relate to that.

The last team who won the national title but didn't play a FBS game? NDSU in 2017. Before that? NDSU in 2015. Given Colgate's recent performance and the PL's built in restriction I think it's delusional for Colgate to say they're trying to compete for a national title. The PL needs to raise their game big time(likely loosen the redshirt/AI) before I'll take such "goals" as possible. Until they start getting seeding, bidding and winning home playoff games, winning key OOC games in this era of FCS that's nothing but a pipe dream for Colgate, Lehigh and everyone else in the PL. Colgate couldn't beat NDSU's 3rd stringers...lol

There is absolutely ZERO correlation between playing FBS games and being a quality FCS program. If anyone can provide one I'll buy them a car....

Notre Dame Temple Fan, were the keys popping off your keyboard typing this? What you don't understand about being a tomato can is that we got to take our shot. Some of the guys on Colgate were better than some of the guys on Syracuse. Almost all of the guys on Syracuse were better than the guys on Colgate and that's OK. I asked a DL friend of mine after we lost a relatively close game to Rutgers what the difference was between the Rutgers OL and the rest of the schools we played. He said their hands were so strong. That once they got their hands on you, you were done (like your poor keyboard). He said this with reverence and not shame. He had been beaten by someone better. He had tried his best but was not up to the task. What a great place to be in life--being pushed to your limits. Colgate lost most of the big games back then but we also beat Army that same year when there program was pretty good. Fun to hear 40,000 people go quiet while one little pep band toots away.

The best teams in FCS play FBS teams on a regular basis. Maybe not in the year they win the title, but every year around it--it's just a fact. As far as not being about to beat North Dakota State's third stringers, you might be right. They are the gold standard of FCS programs. But JMU is also pretty good. They beat 27 FCS teams in a row before losing to North Dakota State trying to defend their national title. The last FCS team to beat them before that was Colgate (in a non-scheduled playoff game so it is meaningless in your Colgate OOC game argument--amazing). I guess every tomato can has its day. Go Lehigh. Beat Navy.

[Gate83]

Good for Colgate, but one could infer that the other six schools seem to be going in six different directions. Lafayette, Bucknell, Georgetown... what's their vision statement?

That's generally my point about you go your way, we'll go ours. I've got a pretty good idea where we'd like to go, rest of the PL who knows? I do know the answers are internal for each school and meanwhile we're not waiting for anyone else to figure it out.

[Sader87]

With the new Luth indoor facility, it looks anyway that HC is once more serious about football....we shall see.

[RichH2]

With the new Luth indoor facility, it looks anyway that HC is once more serious about football....we shall see.

Very nice facility. Now to see if your new HC is an upgrade also.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

With the new Luth indoor facility, it looks anyway that HC is once more serious about football....we shall see.

Wasn't the Hart Center recently updated along with other facility improvements for basketball?

If so, despite these improvements why does Crusader hoops continue to flounder?

[van]

Wasn't the Hart Center recently updated along with other facility improvements for basketball?

If so, despite these improvements why does Crusader hoops continue to flounder?

facilities can't hit the 3 pt shot

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Notre Dame Temple Fan, were the keys popping off your keyboard typing this? What you don't understand about being a tomato can is that we got to take our shot. Some of the guys on Colgate were better than some of the guys on Syracuse. Almost all of the guys on Syracuse were better than the guys on Colgate and that's OK. I asked a DL friend of mine after we lost a relatively close game to Rutgers what the difference was between the Rutgers OL and the rest of the schools we played. He said their hands were so strong. That once they got their hands on you, you were done (like your poor keyboard). He said this with reverence and not shame. He had been beaten by someone better. He had tried his best but was not up to the task. What a great place to be in life--being pushed to your limits. Colgate lost most of the big games back then but we also beat Army that same year when there program was pretty good. Fun to hear 40,000 people go quiet while one little pep band toots away.

The best teams in FCS play FBS teams on a regular basis. Maybe not in the year they win the title, but every year around it--it's just a fact. As far as not being about to beat North Dakota State's third stringers, you might be right. They are the gold standard of FCS programs. But JMU is also pretty good. They beat 27 FCS teams in a row before losing to North Dakota State trying to defend their national title. The last FCS team to beat them before that was Colgate (in a non-scheduled playoff game so it is meaningless in your Colgate OOC game argument--amazing). I guess every tomato can has its day. Go Lehigh. Beat Navy.

Like I said I love this topic!! Interestingly, Lehigh beat Navy 24-9 in Annapolis in 1987 on their way to a mediocre 5-5-1 record. So both Lehigh and Colgate beat a service academy that year. Ironically, the next time they'd capture a win against a FBS school? Lehigh vs Buffalo in 2002, Colgate vs Buffalo in 2003. One more thing, after beating Buffalo to start the season then crushing Georgetown 69-0 Lehigh ascended to #2 in the TSN Poll. In 2003 Colgate finished #2 in the TSN Poll. Things are funny.

The other thing those wins had in common were horrific opponents. Buffalo was atrocious when they made the transition from 1-AA. Now they're only bad. Navy had a run of 13 straight losing seasons starting in 1983. By the time Lehigh beat them they were right there with K-State and Northwestern as one of 1A's worst programs. Army was pretty good in the 80's. Although, in '87 they did post a 5-6 record that included a 34-24 loss to Holy Cross a 49-37 win over Lafayette and a 17-7 "W" over Temple.

What you have to realize is the reason these FBS/FCS games exist is money. The FBS programs schedule FCS programs because they can pay them less and a win counts towards bowl eligibility. For SEC schools they act as great Home Coming chum to get the locals feeling good before rivalry week. The FBS fans don't like these games. You're kidding yourself if you think Air Force, Ball State, Syracuse, Cincinnati, Temple, UConn, Georgia Southern, Toledo, Michigan State, Boise State, Texas AM etc fans want to see Colgate, Lehigh, New Hampshire, Villanova (WTF, they have a football team?), EWU, Fordham, Holy Cross, Towson, URI show up on their schedule. Just because they're gracious hosts doesn't mean they want to pay to watch their school play a FCS school. The only satisfaction they're getting is if the home team hangs half a hundred and the fight song rains down for 3.5 hours. Several years ago a large number of influential season ticket holders/boosters at Penn State went to war with the athletic office after they scheduled Coastal Carolina, Youngstown State, Indiana State and maybe one more FCS opponent. Since the final FCS opponent was played, about 6-7 years ago, there hasn't been another one scheduled.

And terrible FCS teams schedule FBS programs, sometimes 2 or 3 of them, because they REALLY want the money. The reason so many FCS programs, good and bad combined, schedule FBS games is simply because of money. It's why a number FCS programs (especially out west) schedule D2 opponents. I was living in Bozeman when Chadron State came rolling in. Trust me, Bobcat fans were not fired up for the Chardon. It was the season opener, the Bobcats were preseason Top 3 and the locals just wanted to pound the JV team that was brought in for the celebration.

I think you're wishing something that isn't there when it comes to these games. IMO, you like it from an emotional standpoint because Colgate once played at the highest level (kinda the last 20-30 years of 1-A) and they never will again so just so much being allowed on the same field as a FBS program is to be cherished. Despite having no chance to win (based on recent results) and being looked at as joke (yes FBS vs FCS games are looked at as a joke, I didn't determine that) the ability to soak up someone else's atmosphere while sharing the field with them is good enough. I get it. Some Holy Cross fans would literally allow security to kick them in the balls as they pass through the gates of Fenway to watch BC beat the Crusaders by 60.

Lehigh beat UNI and Towson in the playoffs this decade and finished ranked three straight years including once in the Top 5. Colgate had two nice wins in the playoffs but haven't been able to back it up with any thing of note nationally. Hopefully you guys can back up last year's 7-4 record. Interesting nugget that I bet hardly anyone knows, Colgate hasn't posted back-2-back winning seasons since 2008-2009. And you're trying to compete for national titles against NDSU? Let alone up to task for these OOC schedules? NDSU can flush back-2-back national titles down the toilet and still have 3-peat. C'mon! I'm not sure if you're latex sales worthy!!

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

facilities can't hit the 3 pt shot

I forgot to mention HC updated their coach along with their facility improvements!! But they're still struggling to upgrade the team. There's always next year right? They won't be picked higher than 5th or 6th....

[Colgate Raider Redux]

I forgot to mention HC updated their coach along with their facility improvements!! But they're still struggling to upgrade the team. There's always next year right? They won't be picked higher than 5th or 6th....

You should establish a broader context for your analysis of H.C.'s outlook. There are a couple of facts that sader87 should put on the table for full disclosure. I think the new facilities are a "shiny object" distraction to divert attention from the ongoing turmoil at H.C..
Their new A.D., who is now in his 5th year, is overseeing a year where H.C. has NO ( nada, none, etc. ) Div I teama with (a )winning record(s).
This, despite having canned most of the previous coaches as the A.D. set up his regime. Garbage out, garbage in. Lots of spin coming out of H.C. though.
I think there are larger institutional issues behind H.C.'s failure in athletics.
Is there an institutional governance/oversight problem ? Who are they really, circa 2018--an institutional identity crisis ?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

For context for your analysis of H.C.'s outlook, there are a couple of facts that sader87 should put on the table for full disclosure.
Their new A.D., who is now in his 5th year, is overseeing a year where H.C. has NO ( nada, none, etc. ) Div I team with a winning record.
This, despite canning most of the previous coaches as he set up his regime.
I think there are larger institutional issues behind H.C.'s failure in athletics.
Is their a governance problem ?

Unfortunately, we won't get an educated, rationale answer out of Sader87. Rather, the pathetic and played out token "it's the PL's fault".

I've said over and over there's fundamental issues (some more severe than others) at each school that collectively are handicapping the PL. But for whatever reason people think it's not true or ignore it. We all need to open our eyes and educate ourselves as to what's going on at each school. It's time to be brutally honest! I'm doing my best to get that discussion going in that direction since the season ended. It drives me crazy to watch PL fans on here hoping and wishing for change without even doing a little bit of research to understand what's going on. I'm not going to claim to know everything or even much of anything but I've honestly spent hours, days, weeks, years doing research on PL football specifically. I've been around PL athletics whole life as a non-alum. It's an interesting perspective.

[Gater]

Like I said I love this topic!! Interestingly, Lehigh beat Navy 24-9 in Annapolis in 1987 on their way to a mediocre 5-5-1 record. So both Lehigh and Colgate beat a service academy that year. Ironically, the next time they'd capture a win against a FBS school? Lehigh vs Buffalo in 2002, Colgate vs Buffalo in 2003. One more thing, after beating Buffalo to start the season then crushing Georgetown 69-0 Lehigh ascended to #2 in the TSN Poll. In 2003 Colgate finished #2 in the TSN Poll. Things are funny.

The other thing those wins had in common were horrific opponents. Buffalo was atrocious when they made the transition from 1-AA. Now they're only bad. Navy had a run of 13 straight losing seasons starting in 1983. By the time Lehigh beat them they were right there with K-State and Northwestern as one of 1A's worst programs. Army was pretty good in the 80's. Although, in '87 they did post a 5-6 record that included a 34-24 loss to Holy Cross a 49-37 win over Lafayette and a 17-7 "W" over Temple.

What you have to realize is the reason these FBS/FCS games exist is money. The FBS programs schedule FCS programs because they can pay them less and a win counts towards bowl eligibility. For SEC schools they act as great Home Coming chum to get the locals feeling good before rivalry week. The FBS fans don't like these games. You're kidding yourself if you think Air Force, Ball State, Syracuse, Cincinnati, Temple, UConn, Georgia Southern, Toledo, Michigan State, Boise State, Texas AM etc fans want to see Colgate, Lehigh, New Hampshire, Villanova (WTF, they have a football team?), EWU, Fordham, Holy Cross, Towson, URI show up on their schedule. Just because they're gracious hosts doesn't mean they want to pay to watch their school play a FCS school. The only satisfaction they're getting is if the home team hangs half a hundred and the fight song rains down for 3.5 hours. Several years ago a large number of influential season ticket holders/boosters at Penn State went to war with the athletic office after they scheduled Coastal Carolina, Youngstown State, Indiana State and maybe one more FCS opponent. Since the final FCS opponent was played, about 6-7 years ago, there hasn't been another one scheduled.

And terrible FCS teams schedule FBS programs, sometimes 2 or 3 of them, because they REALLY want the money. The reason so many FCS programs, good and bad combined, schedule FBS games is simply because of money. It's why a number FCS programs (especially out west) schedule D2 opponents. I was living in Bozeman when Chadron State came rolling in. Trust me, Bobcat fans were not fired up for the Chardon. It was the season opener, the Bobcats were preseason Top 3 and the locals just wanted to pound the JV team that was brought in for the celebration.

I think you're wishing something that isn't there when it comes to these games. IMO, you like it from an emotional standpoint because Colgate once played at the highest level (kinda the last 20-30 years of 1-A) and they never will again so just so much being allowed on the same field as a FBS program is to be cherished. Despite having no chance to win (based on recent results) and being looked at as joke (yes FBS vs FCS games are looked at as a joke, I didn't determine that) the ability to soak up someone else's atmosphere while sharing the field with them is good enough. I get it. Some Holy Cross fans would literally allow security to kick them in the balls as they pass through the gates of Fenway to watch BC beat the Crusaders by 60.

Lehigh beat UNI and Towson in the playoffs this decade and finished ranked three straight years including once in the Top 5. Colgate had two nice wins in the playoffs but haven't been able to back it up with any thing of note nationally. Hopefully you guys can back up last year's 7-4 record. Interesting nugget that I bet hardly anyone knows, Colgate hasn't posted back-2-back winning seasons since 2008-2009. And you're trying to compete for national titles against NDSU? Let alone up to task for these OOC schedules? NDSU can flush back-2-back national titles down the toilet and still have 3-peat. C'mon! I'm not sure if you're latex sales worthy!!

Temple Notre Dame Fan, your entire post if from the perspective of the FBS fan. That's your problem. You see nothing but downside because you're an FBS guy. Even your post about Montana State is what it's like for them playing down.

There is no downside to playing up. No one expects you to win--so it's great when you do. You get to play in front of 40,000 people. You get money so it's easier to justify spending millions on a football team that averages 5,000 fans for home games. You get recruits who are thinking about going MAC or Ivy--because you give them a bit of both--some big crowds and good academics--plus the potential of a lot more football games every year and playoffs that might result in a national championship. Players get to test themselves against better players and are better prepared for the FCS schools down the road. Plus, it's just fun to see your small school on a giant stage. 1st quarter hopes may turn into 4th quarter drunks but it's nice to dream big(ger). Maybe this will help you to like these games-- if Temple is able to split a series with Fordham that will help the Owls to get to six wins and a spot in The Huffy Bike Bowl. See, everybody wins!!!

[Sader87]

The PL gutted HC football.....fact. It is what it is, we simply haven't been able to get our football program back to that level and probably never will.

I think this Chesney/Luth era may be our "last chance" at D1 scholarship football. If we are still basically spinning our wheels football-wise in 5 or so years, it wouldn't shock me if HC dropped football.

As for BCS games....the more the better. We'll get blown out by BC in September but it's still better than beating Marist before 3K.

[RichH2]

You should establish a broader context for your analysis of H.C.'s outlook. There are a couple of facts that sader87 should put on the table for full disclosure. I think the new facilities are a "shiny object" distraction to divert attention from the ongoing turmoil at H.C..
Their new A.D., who is now in his 5th year, is overseeing a year where H.C. has NO ( nada, none, etc. ) Div I teama with (a )winning record(s).
This, despite having canned most of the previous coaches as the A.D. set up his regime. Garbage out, garbage in. Lots of spin coming out of H.C. though.
I think there are larger institutional issues behind H.C.'s failure in athletics.
Is there an institutional governance/oversight problem ? Who are they really, circa 2018--an institutional identity crisis ?
As owl sagely notes each PL team has its own soap opera running separate from PL rules. Give Pine his due, he came in to a dumpster fire and acted promptly in most sports to improve their outlook. Bad choices,poor support, poor recruiting bad timing. I dont know the answer.As AGS is a football board, Chesney hire looks to be very good.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Temple Notre Dame Fan, your entire post if from the perspective of the FBS fan. That's your problem. You see nothing but downside because you're an FBS guy. Even your post about Montana State is what it's like for them playing down.

There is no downside to playing up. No one expects you to win--so it's great when you do. You get to play in front of 40,000 people. You get money so it's easier to justify spending millions on a football team that averages 5,000 fans for home games. You get recruits who are thinking about going MAC or Ivy--because you give them a bit of both--some big crowds and good academics--plus the potential of a lot more football games every year and playoffs that might result in a national championship. Players get to test themselves against better players and are better prepared for the FCS schools down the road. Plus, it's just fun to see your small school on a giant stage. 1st quarter hopes may turn into 4th quarter drunks but it's nice to dream big(ger). Maybe this will help you to like these games-- if Temple is able to split a series with Fordham that will help the Owls to get to six wins and a spot in The Huffy Bike Bowl. See, everybody wins!!!

You couldn't be more wrong.

I cover Patriot League football for TheFCSWedge.com. I've spoken with players, coaches and administrators. I've been around Lehigh athletics my whole life. I've been to 100's of PL football games. I've spent a bunch of time at Colgate. I've been to NDSU, Montana, Montana State, Delaware etc for games. I got to know former Drake and MSU head coach Coach Rob Ash (personnel friend of Frank Tavani from when Ash was at Juniata and Tavani at Franklin and Marshall) really well during my time in Montana. Ash was the former president of the American Football Coaches Association. He was a wealth of knowledge when it comes to scholarship and non-scholarship football. So please just stop with my "FBS Perspective".

The FBS Bowl system is a joke. 6-6 records should be not be "rewarded". Congrats to Fordham for beating a 2-10 Temple team that lost to Idaho in Rhule's first year. Owell, we'll embarrass Bucknell next year to get our Patriot League "revenge". That's not a FBS perspective. That's a common sense/Vegas perspective....

[Gater]

Hope you guys are able to beat Bucknell next year! Will also be interesting to see how Lehigh does against them.

[The Boogie Down]

Temple Notre Dame Fan, your entire post if from the perspective of the FBS fan. That's your problem. You see nothing but downside because you're an FBS guy. Even your post about Montana State is what it's like for them playing down.

There is no downside to playing up. No one expects you to win--so it's great when you do. You get to play in front of 40,000 people. You get money so it's easier to justify spending millions on a football team that averages 5,000 fans for home games. You get recruits who are thinking about going MAC or Ivy--because you give them a bit of both--some big crowds and good academics--plus the potential of a lot more football games every year and playoffs that might result in a national championship. Players get to test themselves against better players and are better prepared for the FCS schools down the road. Plus, it's just fun to see your small school on a giant stage. 1st quarter hopes may turn into 4th quarter drunks but it's nice to dream big(ger). Maybe this will help you to like these games-- if Temple is able to split a series with Fordham that will help the Owls to get to six wins and a spot in The Huffy Bike Bowl. See, everybody wins!!!

Man, I was checking off all your points and was 100% with you up until those last two lines. See, Temple has NEVER beaten Fordham nor will they ever beat Fordham. That's a fact. Just like it's a fact that the worst loss any Temple fan can have is one against Villanova. So yeah, not all FCS games are looked down upon by FBS fans. Ask Navy fans about Delaware or (back when they played) Army fans about Holy Cross for more on that.

[Colgate Raider Redux]

As owl sagely notes each PL team has its own soap opera running separate from PL rules. Give Pine his due, he came in to a dumpster fire and acted promptly in most sports to improve their outlook. Bad choices,poor support, poor recruiting bad timing. I dont know the answer.As AGS is a football board, Chesney hire looks to be very good.

"The PL gutted HC football....." Sader87 ( above, March 21, 2018 )

You're correct Rich, each PL school has its own soap opera. and much of these individual soap operas need not concern other PL institutions.
But, Sader87's continurd bizarre assertions belie the reality of the mess at H.C.. The mess goes beyond athletics. And what's driving the mess is substantially more impactful than P.L. regulations. But, the mess only seeps into our view via the public face of athletics. Most of us haven't probed below the surface for the bigger story. I take offense at sader87 maligning the P.L. for allegedly "gutting HC football." If you look below the surface, their football problem mirrors the mess in so many areas of H.C. having nothing to do with the P.L..

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Man, I was checking off all your points and was 100% with you up until those last two lines. See, Temple has NEVER beaten Fordham nor will they ever beat Fordham. That's a fact. Just like it's a fact that the worst loss any Temple fan can have is one against Villanova. So yeah, not all FCS games are looked down upon by FBS fans. Ask Navy fans about Delaware or (back when they played) Army fans about Holy Cross for more on that.

I gave Fordham their props for the Army and Temple wins. Fordham had 3 wins that built them equity, 'Nova, Temple and Army. But like some of Colgate's and Lehigh's previous FBS wins, the Ram's opponents were terrible. I think Temple's loss to Idaho the following week was more embarrassing than losing to Fordham. Idaho was arguably the absolute worst FBS team in 2013. Their only win came against Temple. Fordham would have beat Idaho by 3TDs with Nebrich, Ajala, Jones etc.

Idaho's 2013 Losses
40-6 to North Texas
42-10 to Wyoming
45-34 to N. Illinois
42-0 to Washington State
61-14 to Fresno State
48-24 to Arkansas State
59-14 to Ole Miss
37-21 to Texas State
59-38 to Old Dominion
80-14 to Florida State
26-16 to New Mexico State

FCS teams every now again clip a FBS team. Rarely is it against a FBS team with a pulse. There are examples of course but the % is EXTREMELY small relative to all FCS vs FBS games played.

For all the beatings Temple basketball (and the rest of the A10) put on Fordham over the years you can have your one shining moment against us in football. :DHistorically Temple football is about equal to Fordham basketball, some decent but a whole lot of garbage. Although, Fordham has shown nothing the last 20+ years in hoops while Temple is going on a decade of at least respectability in football.

[NY Crusader 2010]

LU - I'll take Temple football over Fordham basketball all day.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

LU - I'll take Temple football over Fordham basketball all day.

Perhaps Fordham could hire Fran Dunphy should he be relieved of his duties as Temple head coach? Rumor has it Temple will make a decision on the Dunphster's future tomorrow or early next week. Dunphy apparently met with our President and AD some time today.

[DFW HOYA]

"The PL gutted HC football....." Sader87 ( above, March 21, 2018 )


HC gutted HC football.

[Go...gate]

Unfortunately, we won't get an educated, rationale answer out of Sader87. Rather, the pathetic and played out token "it's the PL's fault".

I've said over and over there's fundamental issues (some more severe than others) at each school that collectively are handicapping the PL. But for whatever reason people think it's not true or ignore it. We all need to open our eyes and educate ourselves as to what's going on at each school. It's time to be brutally honest! I'm doing my best to get that discussion going in that direction since the season ended. It drives me crazy to watch PL fans on here hoping and wishing for change without even doing a little bit of research to understand what's going on. I'm not going to claim to know everything or even much of anything but I've honestly spent hours, days, weeks, years doing research on PL football specifically. I've been around PL athletics whole life as a non-alum. It's an interesting perspective.

I always thought you had a degree from Lehigh.

[Go...gate]

I gave Fordham their props for the Army and Temple wins. Fordham had 3 wins that built them equity, 'Nova, Temple and Army. But like some of Colgate's and Lehigh's previous FBS wins, the Ram's opponents were terrible. I think Temple's loss to Idaho the following week was more embarrassing than losing to Fordham. Idaho was arguably the absolute worst FBS team in 2013. Their only win came against Temple. Fordham would have beat Idaho by 3TDs with Nebrich, Ajala, Jones etc.

Idaho's 2013 Losses
40-6 to North Texas
42-10 to Wyoming
45-34 to N. Illinois
42-0 to Washington State
61-14 to Fresno State
48-24 to Arkansas State
59-14 to Ole Miss
37-21 to Texas State
59-38 to Old Dominion
80-14 to Florida State
26-16 to New Mexico State

FCS teams every now again clip a FBS team. Rarely is it against a FBS team with a pulse. There are examples of course but the % is EXTREMELY small relative to all FCS vs FBS games played.

For all the beatings Temple basketball (and the rest of the A10) put on Fordham over the years you can have your one shining moment against us in football. :DHistorically Temple football is about equal to Fordham basketball, some decent but a whole lot of garbage. Although, Fordham has shown nothing the last 20+ years in hoops while Temple is going on a decade of at least respectability in football.

Speaking of FB, I am reading that Temple may consider building an on-campus football facility. Any information as to whether such a proposal has legs?

[Sader87]

HC gutted HC football.

True, but it's a "chicken vs the egg" argument....Holy Cross and Fr. Brooks basically created PL football....if you don't see the direct correlation between HC's football fortunes dropping off after we dropped football scholarships in 1991, you're blind.

[RichH2]

True, but it's a "chicken vs the egg" argument....Holy Cross and Fr. Brooks basically created PL football....if you don't see the direct correlation between HC's football fortunes dropping off after we dropped football scholarships in 1991, you're blind.
Oh there is definitely a correlation, just not the one you want. The failure lies not with forming the PL. It sits on Cross' failure to adapt. Colgate did it. You did not.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

True, but it's a "chicken vs the egg" argument....Holy Cross and Fr. Brooks basically created PL football....if you don't see the direct correlation between HC's football fortunes dropping off after we dropped football scholarships in 1991, you're blind.

Father Brooks and Lehigh's then president Peter Likins were the two key figures in the creation of the league. I don't think all Lehigh fans were too thrilled with the league when it was formed either.

As I have said, others lost too with the formation of the league. Lehigh won a D2 National Title then played for a 1-AA Title less than 10 years before the formation of the PL. Then the league was formed and Lehigh football too fell into national obscurity until 1998. The formation of the league is also largely to blame for the demise of the Lehigh-Delaware rivalry. That was easily one of the top small college rivalries in the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic.

[Sader87]

Oh there is definitely a correlation, just not the one you want. The failure lies not with forming the PL. It sits on Cross' failure to adapt. Colgate did it. You did not.

Colgate was always "student financial aid"....Holy Cross was a scholarship program...we never adapted well to that model.

[DFW HOYA]

Speaking of FB, I am reading that Temple may consider building an on-campus football facility. Any information as to whether such a proposal has legs?

It's run into trouble.

http://www.thecourierexpress.com/news/state/councilman-to-temple-s-stadium-not-so-fast/article_f883cab6-0157-5778-b115-f82844e38092.html

http://planphilly.com/uploads/media_items/preliminary-sketch-of-the-proposed-temple-on-campus-football-stadium-credit-temple-university.0.112.1200.574.752.360.c.jpg

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

It's run into trouble.

http://www.thecourierexpress.com/news/state/councilman-to-temple-s-stadium-not-so-fast/article_f883cab6-0157-5778-b115-f82844e38092.html

http://planphilly.com/uploads/media_items/preliminary-sketch-of-the-proposed-temple-on-campus-football-stadium-credit-temple-university.0.112.1200.574.752.360.c.jpg

Trying to build in Philadelphia is brutally difficult. It's corrupt beyond belief because of the unions and politicians. The locals are putting up a huge uproar because they want some sort of compensation. They've disrupted meetings and gotten the NAACP involved. The whole thing has turned into a circus. I think eventually it gets done but there's going to be more nonsense and hand wringing first.

I've paid some attention to it but given the ridiculousness of it it's hard to wade through all the BS.

The biggest topic of discussion right now is Dunphy's future and getting the basketball program turned around.

[Go...gate]

Father Brooks and Lehigh's then president Peter Likins were the two key figures in the creation of the league. I don't think all Lehigh fans were too thrilled with the league when it was formed either.

As I have said, others lost too with the formation of the league. Lehigh won a D2 National Title then played for a 1-AA Title less than 10 years before the formation of the PL. Then the league was formed and Lehigh football too fell into national obscurity until 1998. The formation of the league is also largely to blame for the demise of the Lehigh-Delaware rivalry. That was easily one of the top small college rivalries in the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic.

They also had a good bit of help from Tony Maruca at Princeton.

Agree with you regarding the Lehigh - Delaware series. That was a showcase game every year back in the day.

[Go...gate]

Trying to build in Philadelphia is brutally difficult. It's corrupt beyond belief because of the unions and politicians. The locals are putting up a huge uproar because they want some sort of compensation. They've disrupted meetings and gotten the NAACP involved. The whole thing has turned into a circus. I think eventually it gets done but there's going to be more nonsense and hand wringing first.

I've paid some attention to it but given the ridiculousness of it it's hard to wade through all the BS.

The biggest topic of discussion right now is Dunphy's future and getting the basketball program turned around.

It would be great for TU to have an on-campus ballpark.

Sorry to hear that Dunphy is in trouble. He is a very good man, IMO.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

It would be great for TU to have an on-campus ballpark.

Sorry to hear that Dunphy is in trouble. He is a very good man, IMO.

It would be great for Temple and Philly for us to have an on-campus stadium. It will be a centerpiece for all of North Philly. But it needs to be done right.

No reason to be sorry about Dunphy. He needs to go! Great guy, great ambassador of the university but only a solid (far from great) coach whose performance has really slipped in recent years. Former Lehigh HC Dave Duke has remained his right hand man.

[Anthony215]

It would be great for Temple and Philly for us to have an on-campus stadium. It will be a centerpiece for all of North Philly. But it needs to be done right.

No reason to be sorry about Dunphy. He needs to go! Great guy, great ambassador of the university but only a solid (far from great) coach whose performance has really slipped in recent years. Former Lehigh HC Dave Duke has remained his right hand man.

I agree that Temple needs that on campus stadium to entice local recruits to stay home and have that on campus game day experience. The Linc has served its purpose as a temporary home the last 15 years but realistically playing in front of 25000 fans in a 70000 seat stadium isn't all that appealing when they're being offered by regional schools like Maryland (Big 10), Pittsburgh (at least they bring in FSU/Syracuse/Clemson every other year), or that school up north Rutgers (Ohio State, PSU, Michigan). I actually live in North Philadelphia and can't see why the residents are against the Stadium considering it's going on Temple property. None of their homes are being demolished, its only seating 35k to 40k so between parking at the Liacorous Center, the Broad Street subway line and Regional Rail line traffic won't be too bad those 5-6 games per season they're having a game and finally the jobs that are created from the stores at the stadium to the construction of the stadium.

Also couldn't agree more that Dunphy has had plenty of time on Broad Street time to call it a career and let McKie get a good 3-4 years to try and rebrand and rebuild the program. I think with him as HC he'd have more legit chances to keep homegrown talent in the city. When local kids rather got to A-10 schools like VCU, Rhode Island and St. Joes over Temple which has the better stadium, more history and long term success than those schools. Same as when city kids choose going to cold Syracuse (Dion Waters, Rakim Christmas) over staying home.

[Anthony215]

Trying to build in Philadelphia is brutally difficult. It's corrupt beyond belief because of the unions and politicians. The locals are putting up a huge uproar because they want some sort of compensation. They've disrupted meetings and gotten the NAACP involved. The whole thing has turned into a circus. I think eventually it gets done but there's going to be more nonsense and hand wringing first.

I've paid some attention to it but given the ridiculousness of it it's hard to wade through all the BS.

The biggest topic of discussion right now is Dunphy's future and getting the basketball program turned around.

What I find egregious is that the NAACP has no legit gripe to question Temple about this stadium that's on their land. They've already compromised to not touch the playground which is city property that would be on the end of the stadium as well as agreed that the stadium will be below street level to reduce the crowd noise in the neighborhood. I suspect Temple would only play 1-2 night games a year while the rest would be on Saturdays at noon or 1pm. I've seen locals complain they would lose their parking spots but having an On-Campus stadium means more students who live on campus come and since TU has about 10k students on campus it's no different than a concert at the Liacorous Center where the garage is full and everyone else uses public transportation with 2 major rail lines stopping on campus as well as 3 different bus routes.....

[Go...gate]

What I find egregious is that the NAACP has no legit gripe to question Temple about this stadium that's on their land. They've already compromised to not touch the playground which is city property that would be on the end of the stadium as well as agreed that the stadium will be below street level to reduce the crowd noise in the neighborhood. I suspect Temple would only play 1-2 night games a year while the rest would be on Saturdays at noon or 1pm. I've seen locals complain they would lose their parking spots but having an On-Campus stadium means more students who live on campus come and since TU has about 10k students on campus it's no different than a concert at the Liacorous Center where the garage is full and everyone else uses public transportation with 2 major rail lines stopping on campus as well as 3 different bus routes.....

Great post.

[DFW HOYA]

I believe if GU could get the MSF squared away and find the $$ to fund even 40 scholarships, they might dominate the league as Holy Cross did at one time.

This brings up an interesting topic and a provocative argument.

We can define scholarship as a so-called "free ride" grant in aid (not an equivalency). Whether the scholarship is paid from the financial aid office or the coach's office, it's essentially a transfer cost within the university. Can we agree on this premise?

If Coach Sgarlata recruits a kid with an adjusted gross income below $55,000, that prospect is very likely to get a full ride from Georgetown, regardless of the transfer cost. Recruit and sign ten low income prospects a year equals 40 "full rides". Maybe Sgarlata could do that. Maybe he already does.

Because in the end it's not about transfer payments. With a 50th percentile SAT hovering at around 1490, the PL's one standard deviation rule effectively cuts off GU's recruiting at somewhere around a 1300-1310 SAT out of 1600. That's the 92nd percentile of all test takers. If the SAT bell curve applied to impact players (Rivals three star and better, and while it doesn't let's assume it), there would be less than 150 prospects a year at this level with those grades, and an even smaller subset with full need. That's a group that is being sought by not only the Ivies, but Duke, Northwestern, Notre Dame, and every other school if the talent is there.

Because in the end it's not about four rides or forty. There are an insufficient number of high-impact, high-SAT, middle AGI players who, after having not been offered a scholarship somewhere else are even looking at Georgetown, for many of the same reasons why high-impact, high-SAT, middle AGI basketball players aren't looking at Lafayette or Loyola.

Think about it--Georgetown hasn't had a single all-league offensive player recruited since they joined the league in 2001. None. Bad recruiting? No. Bad luck? No. The kids coming in the narrow door since 2001 never rose to that level, and those that could aren't considering it. This is the equivalent of Todd Berry and Bobby Ross at Army recruiting for I-A talent in the 2000's. Until the door was opened a little wider, this was a fait accompli.

Without a path to recruit, Georgetown will never consistently compete in the PL, period, and I don't see any benefit for the league or for the school in that.

[PAllen]

Honestly, I'd be OK with a league wide floor as an AI. That said, there's a good argument for that floor being above Loyola and BU's current restrictions under the AI.

[RichH2]

Honestly, I'd be OK with a league wide floor as an AI. That said, there's a good argument for that floor being above Loyola and BU's current restrictions under the AI.
Absolutely. Didnt agree with its inception and dont agree with its application. At the very least,if we cant get rid of it, modify banding to give all teams more equal access to athletes. If Presidents dead set on an AI keep the floor but provide adequate adjustments above the floor.

[van]

why is it that Hoyas can't beat the Ivies for even one of these impact players, Hoyas have not had one all PL offensive player in that time period while Ivies have had numerous NFL prospects during the same time period, making Georgetown a desirable destination for these guys is not a PL issue, Hoyas own that all by themselves

[DFW HOYA]

why is it that Hoyas can't beat the Ivies for even one of these impact players, Hoyas have not had one all PL offensive player in that time period while Ivies have had numerous NFL prospects during the same time period, making Georgetown a desirable destination for these guys is not a PL issue, Hoyas own that all by themselves

Georgetown's financial aid packages trail the Ivies across the board. That's an indirect function of a $1.5B endowment competing against endowments of $5B and above.

[RichH2]

Georgetown's financial aid packages trail the Ivies across the board. That's an indirect function of a $1.5B endowment competing against endowments of $5B and above.
a bit disingenuous. We all compete with Ivies and you have a larger indownment than many PL schools. Ivies win head to heads most often but PL has improved markedly over the last 3 years.
I imagine the only thing limiting Hoyas in recruiting 40 high need athletes is Admissions wont let HC spend that much money,

[DFW HOYA]

a bit disingenuous. We all compete with Ivies and you have a larger indownment than many PL schools. Ivies win head to heads most often but PL has improved markedly over the last 3 years.
I imagine the only thing limiting Hoyas in recruiting 40 high need athletes is Admissions wont let HC spend that much money,

Georgetown is a "need-blind, full-need" university on financial aid. If there are three or twenty-three signees with full need, they get it. But if they don't qualify for need, they won't get it either.

Which leads me back to the earlier question. This is not a one or two year trend, nor an issue with one coach. We're talking 19 years of this. Georgetown ran the ball and couldn't get recruits. It was an option program and couldn't get recruits. It went to passing and couldn't get recruits. Supply or demand must be in play--either the supply isn't getting enough talent into Georgetown's AI funnel, or players on offense somehow won't accept a Georgetown offer when kids on the defensive side of the ball do, all things being equal.

[NY Crusader 2010]

Honestly, I'd be OK with a league wide floor as an AI. That said, there's a good argument for that floor being above Loyola and BU's current restrictions under the AI.

Agree here. I'd probably lean towards dumping the AI but a standard floor would be an improvement over what we have now.