Patriot League 2018 - way way way to early

[Colgate Raider Redux]

Here's a thought. Why don't the teams of the PL simply win more of these games? The issue isn't that the schedules are too hard, it's that the teams of the PL need to figure out how to beat them. The way to beat them is to schedule them.

The teams of the PL should be looking for challenges as a team and to be able to construct a team that wins the national championship. That bar is high, but it should be high.

Incidentally, HC has been scheduling those type of games... and won the marquee win for the league last year, and it's not particularly close. So the use of HC as an example of "overstepping one's bounds" seems especially weird.

I think HC's scheduling is great. That's not the issue. "Overstepping one's bounds" is a weird characterization. RichH characterized the issue accurately: "You are correct that the " circumstances" are really their issue. Cross has created their own dilemma here by scheduling up first before having the team to actually compete."

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Agreed. And like anything else, if we keep working at it, over time, we will all get stronger.

Who is "we"? Those of us on AGS or the folks that actually make decisions at each Patriot League school?

What are the individual institutions doing to get stronger relative to the rest of the FCS landscape? Increased funding? Higher pay for assistants? More wiggle room with the AI? Larger roster sizes? Redshirting? Increased bidding for home playoff games? Facility improvements?

My belief has always been "wish in one hand, ***** in the other and see which hand fills up faster"...

The only thing of note that has happened in the last 13 months is Gilmore and Tavani FINALLY being fired. Also, Fordham fans seem happy Breiner left..

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Colgate has done just fine. Lehigh's OOC record hasn't been much if any better and we've had a pretty steady diet of cupcakes compared to what the Red Raiders have faced.

Lehigh has done a very good challenging themselves in the OOC. Games with JMU, UNH and 'Nova are great. As are regular games with the better Ivy League programs like Yale, Penn and Princeton.

Lehigh hasn't faced any true cupcakes outside of Columbia and CCSU when both were down.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What are the individual institutions doing to get stronger relative to the rest of the FCS landscape? Increased funding? High pay for assistants? More wiggle room with the AI? Larger roster sizes? Redshirting? Increased bidding for home playoff games? Facility improvements?

Pretty sure any combination of all of these suggestions would help for Lehigh.

At a league level, I feel like increased roster sizes would be a terrific starting point. That and redshirting are the two league-wide things that could be done (those are PL rules), and while redshirting is at least a debate, increased roster sizes don't affect scholarships at all, only participation, and it doesn't make sense to me to artificially limit rosters to not be in line with the common practice of rest of FCS.

The other stuff HAS been done by other schools. Georgetown, Fordham, Holy Cross, Lafayette, Colgate and Bucknell have all upgraded their facilities one way or another during the last decade, especially in the scoreboard department. No school has done more in that area than Lafayette since 2000.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Pretty sure any combination of all of these suggestions would help for Lehigh.

At a league level, I feel like increased roster sizes would be a terrific starting point. That and redshirting are the two league-wide things that could be done (those are PL rules), and while redshirting is at least a debate, increased roster sizes don't affect scholarships at all, only participation, and it doesn't make sense to me to artificially limit rosters to not be in line with the common practice of rest of FCS.

The other stuff HAS been done by other schools. Georgetown, Fordham, Holy Cross, Lafayette, Colgate and Bucknell have all upgraded their facilities one way or another during the last decade, especially in the scoreboard department. No school has done more in that area than Lafayette since 2000.

Holy Cross just built a new practice facility and did put money in Hart Arena. Lafayette obviously did numerous upgrades to Fisher and Kirby the last 10-15 years. Lafayette's upgrades were done in large part because of a wealthy booster was embarrassed by his alma mater's dilapidated facilities and the fear the school might drop down to D3. There was never an indication that Lafayette wanted to make those capital improvements. Either way, both schools have terrible football and men's bball programs. Why?

Fordham has done next to nothing to upgrade their facilities. Maybe they added some new roll-out bleachers at Rose Hill Gym? Talk about a school in desperate need of a facility upgrade..

Bucknell built Stojka and are obviously committed to bball. There were renderings for a renovated CMS but are there actually wheels in motion to do anything?

Georgetown upgraded McDonough for bball and made some modest improvements to the MSF. So instead of the worst facility in FCS they now have the 4th or 5th worst.

Colgate built a new hockey arena which is great. But I don't know of anything they've done to Andy Kerr.

Lehigh spruced up Stabler some 15 or so years ago but have done nothing to Goodman which will turn 30 years old this year. At least they've invested in the smaller venues for field hockey, lacrosse, softball and baseball...

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Another perplexing thing regarding the PL....

According to this Forbe's article, the PL does not get a cut of the FBS bowl money because they won't add 3 scholarships. Yet, the Big Sky, Big South, CAA, MEAC, MVFC, OVC, Southern, Southland, SWAC do. I know it's a small piece of the pie but it doesn't look good from a perception standpoint imo. Just another table the PL elects not to sit at because of their own self imposed restrictions...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristidosh/2017/12/30/college-football-playoff-payouts-by-conference-for-2017-2018/2/#5e44b6fd22b5

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I think HC's scheduling is great. That's not the issue. "Overstepping one's bounds" is a weird characterization. RichH characterized the issue accurately: "You are correct that the " circumstances" are really their issue. Cross has created their own dilemma here by scheduling up first before having the team to actually compete."

Holy Cross hasn't had a team in 30 years capable of competing with their upcoming schedules. Outside of sheer blind faith and wishing it was 1948 or 1987 all over again what gives you any reason to believe the Crusaders will ever be able to "compete" against better competition? Because Nate Pine says so?

[Colgate Raider Redux]

Colgate built a new hockey arena which is great. But I don't know of anything they've done to Andy Kerr.

...
http://gocolgateraiders.com/news/2017/9/9/general-chun-academic-services-center-freds-place-rca-meeting-room-dedicated.aspx?path=football

[RichH2]

Another perplexing thing regarding the PL....

According to this Forbe's article, the PL does not get a cut of the FBS bowl money because they won't add 3 scholarships. Yet, the Big Sky, Big South, CAA, MEAC, MVFC, OVC, Southern, Southland, SWAC do. I know it's a small piece of the pie but it doesn't look good from a perception standpoint imo. Just another table the PL elects not to sit at because of their own self imposed restrictions...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristidosh/2017/12/30/college-football-playoff-payouts-by-conference-for-2017-2018/2/#5e44b6fd22b5

Didnt know that. Past time to end this farcical cap. It was originally part of phase in for those schools with budget problems. 5 years in, all should have adapted to the schollie program.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

http://gocolgateraiders.com/news/2017/9/9/general-chun-academic-services-center-freds-place-rca-meeting-room-dedicated.aspx?path=football

Looks nice! Nothing too crazy but i'm sure the renovation was needed.

I should have added that Lehigh upgraded Cundey Varsity House recently which is similar to what Colgate did. The only real difference is Lehigh does not use Cundey on game days to my knowledge.

[Gate83]

Looks nice! Nothing too crazy but i'm sure the renovation was needed.

I should have added that Lehigh upgraded Cundey Varsity House recently which is similar to what Colgate did. The only real difference is Lehigh does not use Cundey on game days to my knowledge.

Before building the hockey rink all our teams (and coaches) were squeezed for space, getting them proper facilities was part of the impetus to adding another athletic building (the rink also now houses our lacrosse teams as well as hockey, previously all were jammed into the Reid Athletic facility). We also replaced the turf in Andy Kerr last year, though I'd count that as necessary upkeep.

Regarding "Colgate better go 3-2 in the OOC in 2018. No excuses for a losing record this year right?," you're funny. Never made an excuse for our poor OOC the last 5 years, agree we should do better. Which is why you play the games against the best competition in your weight class, and stretch even higher once a year. Maybe not your particular scheduling philosophy, but trust me Gate (and Holy Cross I think) embrace it.

[RichH2]

Not sure which scheduling policy is better for our programs. Personally I think scheduling up is essential to build a stronger program. I do not mean bodybag money games. Top FCS, the Academies and occasional G5 games. The most notable benefit for a team is increased game speed for the players. One thing I have noticed over the years is that ,while Ivies bring in a raft of highly touted recruits, few of them actually develop further. A large part of that failure is Ivy insular scheduling.
In order to improve players need to be challenged by better faster talent. It gives players a real frame of reference for how good they are now and what they need to do to improve.

[Go...gate]

Before building the hockey rink all our teams (and coaches) were squeezed for space, getting them proper facilities was part of the impetus to adding another athletic building (the rink also now houses our lacrosse teams as well as hockey, previously all were jammed into the Reid Athletic facility). We also replaced the turf in Andy Kerr last year, though I'd count that as necessary upkeep.

Regarding "Colgate better go 3-2 in the OOC in 2018. No excuses for a losing record this year right?," you're funny. Never made an excuse for our poor OOC the last 5 years, agree we should do better. Which is why you play the games against the best competition in your weight class, and stretch even higher once a year. Maybe not your particular scheduling philosophy, but trust me Gate (and Holy Cross I think) embrace it.

Amen.

[Go...gate]

Not sure which scheduling policy is better for our programs. Personally I think scheduling up is essential to build a stronger program. I do not mean bodybag money games. Top FCS, the Academies and occasional G5 games. The most notable benefit for a team is increased game speed for the players. One thing I have noticed over the years is that, while the Ivies bring in a raft of highly touted recruits, few of them actually develop further. A large part of that failure is Ivy insular scheduling.
In order to improve players need to be challenged by better faster talent. It gives players a real frame of reference for how good they are now and what they need to do to improve.

And the Ivies' scheduling appears to be getting even more insular, as fewer Ivy schools will play the Patriot.

[Lehigh'98]

Heard Bott has stepped down at Lehigh. Sutyak still a question mark. Think Coen wants him to stay, maybe not Joe though.

[RichH2]

Heard Bott has stepped down at Lehigh. Sutyak still a question mark. Think Coen wants him to stay, maybe not Joe though.

Heard a bit ago. Trying to get confirmation. LU has posted for an asst D coach. Joe wont overrule Andy. He may make it clear that a better D is a real job requirement for Andy.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Heard Bott has stepped down at Lehigh. Sutyak still a question mark. Think Coen wants him to stay, maybe not Joe though.

What does this really mean though? Wasn't Bott just a consultant as he was preparing for retirement anyway? Sutyak was the real DC right?

[Lehigh'98]

What does this really mean though? Wasn't Bott just a consultant as he was preparing for retirement anyway? Sutyak was the real DC right?

I don't think that's how it was working. Bott still had a lot of influence on the defense. Not sure who was calling the schemes. I think they should clean house personally, but doesn't seem like Coen really wants to. Kind of disappointing. We've seen enough the last 4-5 yrs to know major changes are needed.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

And the Ivies' scheduling appears to be getting even more insular, as fewer Ivy schools will play the Patriot.

I think it's actually the opposite. I know Yale, Cornell, Dartmouth and Penn have expanded their OOC scheduling the last 3-5 years to include different teams from the FCS power conferences, especially the CAA. One of them just inked a H&H deal with SoCon member Mercer.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I don't think that's how it was working. Bott still had a lot of influence on the defense. Not sure who was calling the schemes. I think they should clean house personally, but doesn't seem like Coen really wants to. Kind of disappointing. We've seen enough the last 4-5 yrs to know major changes are needed.

I completely agree. I know Roberts has been with the program forever but even his time should come imo. The DL play has been terrible far too long because of terrible recruiting. At some point he has to be held accountable. Or at least I would hope...

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown upgraded McDonough for bball and made some modest improvements to the MSF. So instead of the worst facility in FCS they now have the 4th or 5th worst.

No upgrades have been made to McDonough Gymnasium, which has not been renovated since it opened 66 years ago. It has a still has a phone booth in the lobby, if that says anything. The basketball practice facility was seven years late, which in Georgetown-time means that it was fast-tracked.

I am unaware of the "modest improvements" at the MSF you suggest, unless they replaced the gravel. The endless churn over construction is scheduled to do something in 2018, but the plans have been downgraded significantly and it may be underwhelming when all is said and done. And that scoreboard? It's the same one from the soccer field circa 1994:

https://georgetowner.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/article_X0034995-945.jpg

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

No upgrades have been made to McDonough Gymnasium, which has not been renovated since it opened 66 years ago. It has a still has a phone booth in the lobby, if that says anything. The basketball practice facility was seven years late, which in Georgetown-time means that it was fast-tracked.

I am unaware of the "modest improvements" at the MSF you suggest, unless they replaced the gravel. The endless churn over construction is scheduled to do something in 2018, but the plans have been downgraded significantly and it may be underwhelming when all is said and done. And that scoreboard? It's the same one from the soccer field circa 1994:

https://georgetowner.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/article_X0034995-945.jpg

It must be the practice facility that I'm thinking of. I thought McDonough was being renovated to become that. From what I gather it will be adjacent to McDonough.

The only modest improvements I thought of were the masonry work and fence that's near the entrance to the MSF.

[DFW HOYA]

The only modest improvements I thought of were the masonry work and fence that's near the entrance to the MSF.

The masonry was part of the now-abandoned 2004 design.

http://www.downeyscott.com/img/upload/midsize/Georgetown%20Multisports.JPG

[RichH2]

I don't think that's how it was working. Bott still had a lot of influence on the defense. Not sure who was calling the schemes. I think they should clean house personally, but doesn't seem like Coen really wants to. Kind of disappointing. We've seen enough the last 4-5 yrs to know major changes are needed.
From what I heard there was a gap between young and old that didnt help in getting a cohesive text to players.( Not my words but I paraphrase). No idea the dynamics inside D staff. I do think Sutyak will be a good DC. He deserves a shot at being the DC not just the kid with the title.

[Lehigh'98]

I completely agree. I know Roberts has been with the program forever but even his time should come imo. The DL play has been terrible far too long because of terrible recruiting. At some point he has to be held accountable. Or at least I would hope...

Roberts has been there a very long time, back even when I was playing. He's a great guy, so is coach Bott an Coen is very close to most of his staff. I don't think we will get the shakeup needed from him at this point. I think Joe needs to step in here. Fixing the defense doesn't seem like a quick and easy fix, but the first step would be getting a proven, motivated coach in there that can recruit. Not sure what the salary is, but it's probably time to dig a deeper in the pockets.

[Lehigh'98]

From what I heard there was a gap between young and old that didnt help in getting a cohesive text to players.( Not my words but I paraphrase). No idea the dynamics inside D staff. I do think Sutyak will be a good DC. He deserves a shot at being the DC not just the kid with the title.

Bott called the defense the first half of season. Sutyak second. I just disagree here though, I don't think Sutyak is the answer and we are wasting even more time gathering more evidence.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The masonry was part of the now-abandoned 2004 design.

http://www.downeyscott.com/img/upload/midsize/Georgetown%20Multisports.JPG

They started it, they just didn't finish it....

http://thebrownandwhite.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/1-DSC_0213.jpg

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Roberts has been there a very long time, back even when I was playing. He's a great guy, so is coach Bott an Coen is very close to most of his staff. I don't think we will get the shakeup needed from him at this point. I think Joe needs to step in here. Fixing the defense doesn't seem like a quick and easy fix, but the first step would be getting a proven, motivated coach in there that can recruit. Not sure what the salary is, but it's probably time to dig a deeper in the pockets.

Given the fact the defense has reached a level of historic ineptitude I can't believe there isn't more urgency to fix it. Coen has always been slow to move on coaches which is clearly a major flaw. I wish I was a fly on the wall when the whole Coen-Troy Brown-Dave Cecchini OC deal went down after the 2009 season. I feel like Sterrett stepped in that time and really forced Coen's hand after 3 straight losing seasons.

[RichH2]

Bott called the defense the first half of season. Sutyak second. I just disagree here though, I don't think Sutyak is the answer and we are wasting even more time gathering more evidence.
Perhaps. Agree Sutyak as yet an unk own quantitiy.
What is the option? A new experienced DC with a track record and staff. You're right. For that to even be feasible Joe is going to need money.
Dont think it is a real choice right now. I dont know what will work here but I agree D has to get out of this abyss of terrible results year after year.

[ngineer]

Not sure which scheduling policy is better for our programs. Personally I think scheduling up is essential to build a stronger program. I do not mean bodybag money games. Top FCS, the Academies and occasional G5 games. The most notable benefit for a team is increased game speed for the players. One thing I have noticed over the years is that ,while Ivies bring in a raft of highly touted recruits, few of them actually develop further. A large part of that failure is Ivy insular scheduling.
In order to improve players need to be challenged by better faster talent. It gives players a real frame of reference for how good they are now and what they need to do to improve.

Very true. Games with UNH, Villanova and JMU are great measuring sticks and can only motivate to get better. Ever since the wrestling team has devoted more $$$ to recruiting the "room" has gotten much deeper in talent and the results are starting to show with this year's team ranked #5 in the country--with the 'big boys', not just FCS type schools. Competition only makes the truly motivated athlete better.

[ngineer]

Perhaps. Agree Sutyak as yet an unk own quantitiy.
What is the option? A new experienced DC with a track record and staff. You're right. For that to even be feasible Joe is going to need money.
Dont think it is a real choice right now. I dont know what will work here but I agree D has to get out of this abyss of terrible results year after year.

No question $$$ is the primary answer to most things. We were lucky to get Coach K years ago, but he is one of those college coaching vagabonds. Never more than a few years in a place, but he did create a defensive 'culture' that I no longer sense. The philosophy must be to put more of our better athletes on the D side of the ball. That's what Higgins did when he took over, and the results spoke for themselves.

[RichH2]

No question $$$ is the primary answer to most things. We were lucky to get Coach K years ago, but he is one of those college coaching vagabonds. Never more than a few years in a place, but he did create a defensive 'culture' that I no longer sense. The philosophy must be to put more of our better athletes on the D side of the ball. That's what Higgins did when he took over, and the results spoke for themselves.

It sure worked for Kevin. Andy could start with OL. We have a ton of them :). Gurth perhaps. Suits did bring in a bunch of athletes for 2ndary. On paper over the last 5 years we have brought in about the same #s for O and D. The top players are indeed mostly for O.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

It sure worked for Kevin. Andy could start with OL. We have a ton of them :). Gurth perhaps. Suits did bring in a bunch of athletes for 2ndary. On paper over the last 5 years we have brought in about the same #s for O and D. The top players are indeed mostly for O.

I do like some of the talent in the secondary. I know I've said that before but I do see some legitimate promise there at least in terms of personnel. Still, they blew assignments at times, the tackling (not just freight training RB's they were forced to deal with far too often) in space was suspect and they dropped or misplayed too many INT's. The fact our CB's were basically the edge containment on D because the DE's were atrocious is ridiculous. Bottom line, I see athletes and guys who cover well when they're focused.

My one wish for the DL (because I expect really no improvement next year) is that Nace starts! Let the kid play! He has the physical tools based on the eye test....

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

What happened to the Fordham board?

Apparently inmates literally ran the asylum! THere's a note saying the board was forced to shutdown due to the behavior of certain posters following a basketball loss to VCU.

There is a new board but you need to be a member to enter....
https://fuforum.createaforum.com/index.php

[Go...gate]

I joined the Fordham board. Looks fine, though more participants needed.

[RichH2]

I do like some of the talent in the secondary. I know I've said that before but I do see some legitimate promise there at least in terms of personnel. Still, they blew assignments at times, the tackling (not just freight training RB's they were forced to deal with far too often) in space was suspect and they dropped or misplayed too many INT's. The fact our CB's were basically the edge containment on D because the DE's were atrocious is ridiculous. Bottom line, I see athletes and guys who cover well when they're focused.

My one wish for the DL (because I expect really no improvement next year) is that Nace starts! Let the kid play! He has the physical tools based on the eye test....

As I sit here watching snow going past my window at a right angle, might as well muse a bit before shoveling :)Nace has to start. Rybka a huge get for us. Kircher very athletic but needs to work in the weight room. Lynn fine at DE but we desperately need a guy on the ogher side who can man the edge. 2ndary will be fine. McCloskey Harris and Jones s/b back healthy. Add in the 5 frosh, talent is there. Teach them to finish tackles.
New FU board up and running. Decent setup.
Recruiting should pick up over the next few weeks heading into NSD in Feb. Lehigh has done very well in restocking O. D has 3 studs but needs much more on DL and LB.

[ngineer]

After watching the NDSU and JMU got at it, it is clear that they focus on defense. The tackling is more technically correct. No lunging at runners. Whether all the lunging we do is due to being out of position or not enough speed must be determined. But defense is scheme and technique must be the #1 focus this Spring and August.

[Gangtackle11]

An outsider opinion who has been at the Villanova - Lehigh games the past 2 seasons.

Offense was frightening. Both QBs top shelf. Bragalone was solid. I don’t see All-American when I watch him, but he’s a solid back in CAA & I guess great in the PL. WR Pelletier should get a shot at NFL if he sticks with it.

Lehigh defense is troubling. I don’t know if it’s the lack of pass rush or not athletic enough in your secondary, but only our inept offense held us to the 38 points we scored. Last year 38-35 win at Lehigh was really an early season omen that the Villanova offense was pedestrian for the competition that lies ahead in the CAA. We scored at will early in the 1st half of that game. The 2nd half to Lehigh’s credit they made some adjustments and kept the game close.

When I watched the film of the game all I can remember is how far away your dbacks were from our receivers. How we didn’t put up 50+ is as much on our boring Offensive game plan as it is the Lehigh Defense. Lehigh needs to recruit better athletes on the defensive side especially at dback or aoffenses will continue to put up big numbers come FCS playoff time.

Not only were your dbacks 5+ yards away from most receivers, but they couldn’t tackle a wet paper bag. Really poor tackling in run support & at contact of receptions added to large gains. Any decent offense should have put up 50+ on them. We didn’t & it was a foreshadowing of a 5-6 Nova season.

We’ll see what next season’s game brings. I have my doubts that Lehigh’s defense will be much improved.

[Lehigh'98]

An outsider opinion who has been at the Villanova - Lehigh games the past 2 seasons.

Offense was frightening. Both QBs top shelf. Bragalone was solid. I don’t see All-American when I watch him, but he’s a solid back in CAA & I guess great in the PL. WR Pelletier should get a shot at NFL if he sticks with it.

Lehigh defense is troubling. I don’t know if it’s the lack of pass rush or not athletic enough in your secondary, but only our inept offense held us to the 38 points we scored. Last year 38-35 win at Lehigh was really an early season omen that the Villanova offense was pedestrian for the competition that lies ahead in the CAA. We scored at will early in the 1st half of that game. The 2nd half to Lehigh’s credit they made some adjustments and kept the game close.

When I watched the film of the game all I can remember is how far away your dbacks were from our receivers. How we didn’t put up 50+ is as much on our boring Offensive game plan as it is the Lehigh Defense. Lehigh needs to recruit better athletes on the defensive side especially at dback or aoffenses will continue to put up big numbers come FCS playoff time.

Not only were your dbacks 5+ yards away from most receivers, but they couldn’t tackle a wet paper bag. Really poor tackling in run support & at contact of receptions added to large gains. Any decent offense should have put up 50+ on them. We didn’t & it was a foreshadowing of a 5-6 Nova season.

We’ll see what next season’s game brings. I have my doubts that Lehigh’s defense will be much improved.

It’s not going to miraculously fix itself just because the calendar changes. Especially with the same faces coaching. Based on recruiting and lack of coaching change, it seems the school is ok with it. The defense has been a complete embarrassment the last 4 years and changes are needed. Hard to say any clearer. Especially compared to the competitive teams we have fielded in the past. Personally, I’ve never been more disappointed in our program.

[Neighbor2]

It’s not going to miraculously fix itself just because the calendar changes. Especially with the same faces coaching. Based on recruiting and lack of coaching change, it seems the school is ok with it. The defense has been a complete embarrassment the last 4 years and changes are needed. Hard to say any clearer. Especially compared to the competitive teams we have fielded in the past. Personally, I’ve never been more disappointed in our program.

Heartily agree!

Keeping everything virtually intact to manage this program is difficult to understand. I've never had so little interest in Lehigh football. Apparently, the school is content at a mediocre level of play and spectator interest. But, it's Lehigh. They don't take criticism very well.

Stale bread.

[RichH2]

After watching the NDSU and JMU got at it, it is clear that they focus on defense. The tackling is more technically correct. No lunging at runners. Whether all the lunging we do is due to being out of position or not enough speed must be determined. But defense is scheme and technique must be the #1 focus this Spring and August.
Without doubt. Theoretically D has been the focus the last 3-4 years without any change in results. We have a litany of excuses for why D was so bad last year. Some with validity. That does not change the results we have seen year after year. I dont have answers. The immediate step in my opinion is simple. Tackling, Tackling Tackling. It is the single common factor over the last 3 years. Tackling is technique learned by repetition. Spring practice for D has to focus on tackling first , scheme assignment second.

[carney2]

Does anyone have anything to say about any of the six programs that do not begin with Le ... ? C'mon, guys, you have your own board. Bitch about things over there where somebody might actually care.

[Lehigh'98]

Does anyone have anything to say about any of the six programs that do not begin with Le ... ? C'mon, guys, you have your own board. Bitch about things over there where somebody might actually care.

Yes, apparently Lafayette still stinks. Now, back to our defense...

[PAllen]

Yes, apparently Lafayette still stinks. Now, back to our defense...

Actually, point of fact, Lafayette Sucks.

Carry on.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Actually, point of fact, Lafayette Sucks.

Carry on.

Lafayette and Holy Cross are two athletic dregs in the PL. Especially in football and men's bball....

[Franks Tanks]

Lafayette and Holy Cross are two athletic dregs in the PL. Especially in football and men's bball....

The fact that Lafayette has allowed Lehigh to have a better basketball program over the last 10-15 years (in total) is the most tragic of all. Lafayette basketball dominated Lehigh for many decades in both records and attendance. Our new AD played basketball. She specifically mentioned that one of her primary goals is to get better at football and men's basketball (duh), and would not be surprised if this is Fran's last year on the sideline.

[carney2]

Yes, apparently Lafayette still stinks.

There. That wasn't so hard, was it?

[Go...gate]

It’s not going to miraculously fix itself just because the calendar changes. Especially with the same faces coaching. Based on recruiting and lack of coaching change, it seems the school is ok with it. The defense has been a complete embarrassment the last 4 years and changes are needed. Hard to say any clearer. Especially compared to the competitive teams we have fielded in the past. Personally, I’ve never been more disappointed in our program.

I have always thought highly of the other PL programs and especially Lehigh. I have followed them since long before league was formed. Their program has never sat still - they recruit, coach and play aggressively. Why not a shake-up of the defense? Maybe re-assign a coach or two and move some of the offensive talent and athleticism to the defense?

[Go...gate]

Lafayette and Holy Cross are two athletic dregs in the PL. Especially in football and men's bball....

Things run in cycles. They are having some difficulty right now. They will be back.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I have always thought highly of the other PL programs and especially Lehigh. I have followed them since long before league was formed. Their program has never sat still - they recruit, coach and play aggressively. Why not a shake-up of the defense? Maybe re-assign a coach or two and move some of the offensive talent and athleticism to the defense?

Why there's been no serious shakeup is beyond any reasoning at this point. As '98 said, I'm extremely disappointed in the lack of action that is needed to improve the program. It's really hard to get excited about 2018 given the insanity that is the defense. Lehigh has not only embarrassed themselves in recent years but also the league.

Now back to other topics not involving Lehigh's defense....

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The fact that Lafayette has allowed Lehigh to have a better basketball program over the last 10-15 years (in total) is the most tragic of all. Lafayette basketball dominated Lehigh for many decades in both records and attendance. Our new AD played basketball. She specifically mentioned that one of her primary goals is to get better at football and men's basketball (duh), and would not be surprised if this is Fran's last year on the sideline.

I know Lafayette was better than Lehigh in hoops before the PL but the last 30 years Lehigh has as a better resume imo. Both teams have had horrific stretches but Lehigh's ceiling imo has been higher. I think that is largely due to the individual talent Lehigh has landed over that time. Lafayette always looks athletically challenged.

Bucknell has been the only real consistent force in basketball during my time following. Davis Gym was a notoriously tough place to play at back in the day. Navy was also pretty good in the 90's. Holy Cross had some nationally viable teams in the early to mid 2000's but otherwise haven't done much in a long, long time.

[Franks Tanks]

I know Lafayette was better than Lehigh in hoops before the PL but the last 30 years Lehigh has as a better resume imo. Both teams have had horrific stretches but Lehigh's ceiling imo has been higher. I think that is largely due to the individual talent Lehigh has landed over that time. Lafayette always looks athletically challenged.

Bucknell has been the only real consistent force in basketball during my time following. Davis Gym was a notoriously tough place to play at back in the day. Navy was also pretty good in the 90's. Holy Cross had some nationally viable teams in the early to mid 2000's but otherwise haven't done much in a long, long time.

30 years yes, but Lafayette was still very good in the 80's and really until the bottom fell out on Leone. Lehigh of course has had the best individual teams recently.

Lafayette still holds like a 55 game advantage in the all time series, and maintains a decent fan base. If we ever get good again Kirby will be rocking.

[DFW HOYA]

Final 2017 poll: no Patriot team in the top 25. Lehigh got two votes overall.

http://www.gobison.com/news/2018/1/8/football-north-dakota-state-no-1-in-final-fcs-coaches-poll.aspx

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Final 2017 poll: no Patriot team in the top 25. Lehigh got two votes overall.

http://www.gobison.com/news/2018/1/8/football-north-dakota-state-no-1-in-final-fcs-coaches-poll.aspx

And the league won't have a preseason Top 25 team either. This will be year 6 of scholarships right? I'm sorry but that's a major failure!

Will the PL have a ranked team during the regular season in 2018? I'm not talking about the token final spot because someone went 7-5 and lost by 40 in the playoffs.

[RichH2]

And the league won't have a preseason Top 25 team either. This will be year 6 of scholarships right? I'm sorry but that's a major failure!

Will the PL have a ranked team during the regular season in 2018? I'm not talking about the token final spot because someone went 7-5 and lost by 40 in the playoffs.
Despite some individual successes I have to agree that schollies are, as yet, not at all successful in raising PL's level of competition. My only caveat is that the incoming soph and frosh groups are overall much deeper and more talented than prior classes. We'll see what these classes will look like in a few years.Lehigh will be graduating ahuge group of seniors next year. Quite a few stars but overall not much different otherwise from preschollie groups. Notable that Andy has emphasized full rides in last and this year's recruit classes over the large number of partials in the senior class.

[ngineer]

Does anyone have anything to say about any of the six programs that do not begin with Le ... ? C'mon, guys, you have your own board. Bitch about things over there where somebody might actually care.

Probably says alot about our League. No one but us lunatics gives a crap!...and we do bitch over there, too.

[cx500d]

Probably says alot about our League. No one but us lunatics gives a crap!


We don't have those issues in the MVFC

[DFW HOYA]

Does anyone have anything to say about any of the six programs that do not begin with Le ... ? C'mon, guys, you have your own board. Bitch about things over there where somebody might actually care.

Hmmm..


Holy Cross has lost their top offensive weapon and now has a new coaching staff.

Fordham has lost their top offensive weapon and now has a new coaching staff.

Georgetown hes no offensive weapon and still is looking for an offensive coordinator.

Bucknell could lose half its offensive starters and no one would notice.

Not a lot of good news out there. Three PL schools finished in the bottom 31 of the Sagarin ratings.

[PaladinFan]

For Colgate, Holland will be back next year as will everyone who ran the ball. Everyone who threw the ball will be back. The top six receivers will be back. 23 of the top 26 tacklers will be back (the 5th, 11th, and 19th leading tacklers graduate). TJ Holl (who was leading the country in tackles when he went out in the fourth game) comes back. All of the specialists are back. Max Hartzman (starting center) comes back from injury as do two other offensive line starters and a probable OL starter who was hurt in camp.

On paper, Colgate should be better. Having four home games with New Hampshire, Furman, William and Mary, Army (and half of the PL) on the road will certainly reveal how much better.

Colgate is playing Furman in South Carolina.

[UNHWildcat18]

Hmmm..


Holy Cross has lost their top offensive weapon and now has a new coaching staff.

Fordham has lost their top offensive weapon and now has a new coaching staff.

Georgetown hes no offensive weapon and still is looking for an offensive coordinator.

Bucknell could lose half its offensive starters and no one would notice.

Not a lot of good news out there. Three PL schools finished in the bottom 31 of the Sagarin ratings.

Give Holy Cross 2-3 years, I think they have a better chance at success than anyone else in the next 5 years

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Give Holy Cross 2-3 years, I think they have a better chance at success than anyone else in the next 5 years

Based on what? xeyebrowx

[RichH2]

Give Holy Cross 2-3 years, I think they have a better chance at success than anyone else in the next 5 years

Why?? Chesney may improve them over the next 3-4 yrs but that has little to do with other PL teams particularly Gate and Lehigh.

[Pards Rule]

The fact that Lafayette has allowed Lehigh to have a better basketball program over the last 10-15 years (in total) is the most tragic of all. Lafayette basketball dominated Lehigh for many decades in both records and attendance. Our new AD played basketball. She specifically mentioned that one of her primary goals is to get better at football and men's basketball (duh), and would not be surprised if this is Fran's last year on the sideline.

Three words: Joe Kessler, Shawnee

[Go...gate]

I don't believe Colgate's two wins in the 2015 playoffs were a fluke. The 2015 squad slowly realized its potential as the season went on.

That said, it would not surprise me if Lehigh wins the league again in 2018 because they can outscore any club in the conference and they play Colgate in Bethlehem.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I don't believe Colgate's two wins in the 2015 playoffs were a fluke. The 2015 squad slowly realized its potential as the season went on.

That said, it would not surprise me if Lehigh wins the league again in 2018 because they can outscore any club in the conference and they play Colgate in Bethlehem.

Colgate went 1-4 in the OOC, beat Georgetown by 4, survived Fordham's comeback, needed a goal line stand to defeat Lehigh then held on for dear life against 4-7 Bucknell to close out the regular season. They played great for two weeks in the playoffs but it doesn't all add up. Especially when you consider Colgate was 4-8 in '13, 5-7 in '14 and backed up '15 with a 5-5 record in 2016.

I'm not trying to tear Colgate down. I try to give credit where and when credit is due but the numbers speak for themselves. If they backed up those two weeks either before or after it would carry a lot more weight. Fordham's and Lehigh's recent playoff performances against teams from the "power conferences" don't help either.

The PL MUST get better. I know there's 5 schools that don't want to hear this, but much of the burden falls on Colgate and Lehigh.

[UNHWildcat18]

Based on what? xeyebrowx

Coaching staff hired

They had nice recruiting classes the last two years that are going to start contributing. big question at QB though

I know the team did poorly overall this year but the coaching meltdown all started with the dartmouth game, the team was more talented than it showed this season.

Give me one reason to have faith in anyone else
Georgetown- lets be honest they will continue to struggle(they suck)
Bucknell- they havent had a plus 0.500 record in the last 10 have they?
Fordham- bad season, head coach ditches
Lafayette- Is not good, only place to go is up I guess
Lehigh-has a **** defense, not likely to change next year
Colgate- I think they could challenge in the next 1-3 years but they slid down a bit this year, more than expected.

I think Holy Cross is laying a good foundation for success.

[RichH2]

Colgate went 1-4 in the OOC, beat Georgetown by 4, survived Fordham's comeback, needed a goal line stand to defeat Lehigh then held on for dear life against 4-7 Bucknell to close out the regular season. They played great for two weeks in the playoffs but it doesn't all add up. Especially when you consider Colgate was 4-8 in '13, 5-7 in '14 and backed up '15 with a 5-5 record in 2016.

I'm not trying to tear Colgate down. I try to give credit where and when credit is due but the numbers speak for themselves. If they backed up those two weeks either before or after it would carry a lot more weight. Fordham's and Lehigh's recent playoff performances against teams from the "power conferences" don't help either.

The PL MUST get better. I know there's 5 schools that don't want to hear this, but much of the burden falls on Colgate and Lehigh.

Wont be a popular view but, I think you are correct for now. Expect Pards and Crusaders will improve over the next years. Bison also if they ever get a QB.

[DFW HOYA]

Give me one reason to have faith in anyone else
Georgetown- lets be honest they will continue to struggle(they suck)


Yes, they struggle but there's a mighty difference between struggle and suck. It's like those Army teams of the 2000's versus, say, Rutgers. Army was undersized, underfunded, and underappreciated, but they never gave up.

So too with Georgetown. I have no doubt that if Georgetown ever got its institutional house in order, they would stomp on opponents and be the PL's version of Villanova, not its Davidson. Instead, much like USMA in the Rich Ellerson years, they didn't bring in the talent that other schools can and they got beat up in the trenches.

For those who say "But Georgetown gets talent", answer this: when was the last offensive recruit from Georgetown in the Patriot League to make first or second team all conference...crickets. xscanx

Because in 17 years, it's never happened. Not one! (Georgetown's one PL offensive designee was a MAAC era player, and there was one special teams player who was actually a safety.) Lehigh has had close to 50 different players in those 17 years make all-league. How would the Engineers fare without a single all-PL performer on offense for 17 years?

And where is the three-star talent, the kind of person that can make an impact, not merely a difference, that can get admitted and want to come? We can go around and around on scholarships or facilities. Without some impact talent, Georgetown does not progress in the PL.

[RichH2]

Yes, they struggle but there's a mighty difference between struggle and suck. It's like those Army teams of the 2000's versus, say, Rutgers. Army was undersized, underfunded, and underappreciated, but they never gave up.

So too with Georgetown. I have no doubt that if Georgetown ever got its institutional house in order, they would stomp on opponents and be the PL's version of Villanova, not its Davidson. Instead, much like USMA in the Rich Ellerson years, they didn't bring in the talent that other schools can and they got beat up in the trenches.

For those who say "But Georgetown gets talent", answer this: when was the last offensive recruit from Georgetown in the Patriot League to make first or second team all conference...crickets. xscanx

Because in 17 years, it's never happened. Not one! (Georgetown's one PL offensive designee was a MAAC era player, and there was one special teams player who was actually a safety.) Lehigh has had close to 50 different players in those 17 years make all-league. How would the Engineers fare without a single all-PL performer on offense for 17 years?

And where is the three-star talent, the kind of person that can make an impact, not merely a difference, that can get admitted and want to come? We can go around and around on scholarships or facilities. Without some impact talent, Georgetown does not progress in the PL.
Actually Hoyas have had pretty good skills players on O over the years, including QBs. Problem is and continues to be the OL and overall depth. D has usually been good to very good but with no depth faded in the 2nd half.
We have gone over this issue every year. The answer is always the same . GU needs to spend more aid money. Even w/o schollies Hoyas with 40-45 need grants would be formidable.

[carney2]

UNH makes some valid points. This is a really mediocre League that has not used scholarships to its advantage and has not made any progress in a long, long time. It wouldn't take much for someone - or ones - to take control of this mess. And just who might that be?:

Bucknell - Not a chance. They're just killing time each year until basketball begins.
Colgate - Everyone says these might be the guys, but things just seem to muddle along in neutral.
Fordham - They play by a different set of rules and that gives them a chance.
Georgetown - All the advantages and none of the fortitude. Not a Jesuit prayer.
Holy Cross - New AD and new coach. Could happen.
Lafayette - Same as Holy Cross, but with a power structure that just doesn't want it to happen.
Lehigh - Same problems year after year. No one seems to have a Band-Aid big enough to stop this bleeding.

[RichH2]

UNH makes some valid points. This is a really mediocre League that has not used scholarships to its advantage and has not made any progress in a long, long time. It wouldn't take much for someone - or ones - to take control of this mess. And just who might that be?:

Bucknell - Not a chance. They're just killing time each year until basketball begins.
Colgate - Everyone says these might be the guys, but things just seem to muddle along in neutral.
Fordham - They play by a different set of rules and that gives them a chance.
Georgetown - All the advantages and none of the fortitude. Not a Jesuit prayer.
Holy Cross - New AD and new coach. Could happen.
Lafayette - Same as Holy Cross, but with a power structure that just doesn't want it to happen.
Lehigh - Same problems year after year. No one seems to have a Band-Aid big enough to stop this bleeding.

If only a Bandaid would do the trick. :)
I expected improvement once our 1st 2groups became upperclassmen. Well that didnt happen. Hindsight, other than some excellent players, PL classes over the 1st 3 years were not much different than preschollie. Last 2 groups have shown a marked improvement at some schools. The current recruits appear so far to be quite good given their other offers. Quite a few more with legit FBS offers. Will we see better next year? Overall no. Gate seems to be the only program poised to break out of its doldrums. LU still needs a D. Dont see one on the horizon. Cross and Pards look to be exciting unknowns in rebuilding mode. Bucknell ?? Hoyas well we have beaten that horse to death repeatedly.

[Lehigh'98]

We don't have those issues in the MVFC

MVFC with FCOA is probably a better conference than Sun Belt and CUSA. Right now, we are moving in the opposite directions. Ashame, considering we recently added scholarships. Why not just increase from 60 to 63? Doesn't seem like much, but even that would help somewhat. We aren't going to bankrupt the schools.

[RichH2]

[QUOTE=Lehigh'98;2602098]MVFC with FCOA is probably a better conference than Sun Belt and CUSA. Right now, we are moving in the opposite directions. Ashame, considering we recently added scholarships. Why not just increase from 60 to 63? Doesn't seem like much, but even that would help somewhat. We aren't going to bankrupt the schools.[/QUOTE

Absolutely. PL , in its arcane academic style, has moved ever so slightly by allowing an additional 3 for true WOs. Next step hopefully will be phasing in of those slots to schollies.When? Pressure has been building. One proposal is to allow those WOs to be recruited prospects receiving need aid . Would give coaches at least a bit more flexibility particularly with high need prospects.

- - - Updated - - -

[QUOTE=Lehigh'98;2602098]MVFC with FCOA is probably a better conference than Sun Belt and CUSA. Right now, we are moving in the opposite directions. Ashame, considering we recently added scholarships. Why not just increase from 60 to 63? Doesn't seem like much, but even that would help somewhat. We aren't going to bankrupt the schools.[/QUOTE

Absolutely. PL , in its arcane academic style, has moved ever so slightly by allowing an additional 3 for true WOs. Next step hopefully will be phasing in of those slots to schollies.When? Pressure has been building. One proposal is to allow those WOs to be recruited prospects receiving need aid . Would give coaches at least a bit more flexibility particularly with high need prospects.

[PAllen]

I still contend it's not the 60 scholarships vs 63. It's the roster limits. I equate it to when I would play club lacrosse against Navy. We'd show up with 20 or so pretty good players on our undefeated team. Navy would have 150+ guys wrapped around the end of the sideline. We may have had better talent than most of them, but every sub had completely fresh legs. We did great for a half, then got smoked in the 2nd as we got tired and were facing guys who'd been chomping at the bit for a chance to get in all game.

[ngineer]

I still contend it's not the 60 scholarships vs 63. It's the roster limits. I equate it to when I would play club lacrosse against Navy. We'd show up with 20 or so pretty good players on our undefeated team. Navy would have 150+ guys wrapped around the end of the sideline. We may have had better talent than most of them, but every sub had completely fresh legs. We did great for a half, then got smoked in the 2nd as we got tired and were facing guys who'd been chomping at the bit for a chance to get in all game.

That is exactly the problem Fred Dunlap told me he saw several years ago when we were up at Colgate. Very prescient.

[RichH2]

That is exactly the problem Fred Dunlap told me he saw several years ago when we were up at Colgate. Very prescient.
Roster cap of 90 is surely a factor but I dont believe a major one. The extra 15-20 players would solve an ongoing problem at Lehigh of having enough bodies to permit live practices. None of these players would see any real PT in games. Over the years I can recall only a couple of players who rose up to make the field. As to caps, I think the 60 , including all aid given to any recruited player, is a much greater obstacle. Combined with the ban on redshirting, they are a formidable barrier to competitiveness. Hell, we played a 17 yr old frosh at Rover last year.
Ideally PL needs to drop roster and schollie caps; permit need aid for WOs and allow at least limited NCAA redshirting. Dont expect PL to be that proactive. Hopefully, they will start with some modifications at this Presidents' meeting . AI will always be with us.

[DFW HOYA]

Hopefully, they will start with some modifications at this Presidents' meeting . AI will always be with us.

The PL doesn't need the AI. It should be scrapped altogether.

[RichH2]

The PL doesn't need the AI. It should be scrapped altogether.

Agree. Dont see Pres Council doing it. Odd, as AI was at the instigation of coaches concerned the Fordham had too big a recruiting advantage. For Hoyas no roster cap.

[Go...gate]

I still contend it's not the 60 scholarships vs 63. It's the roster limits. I equate it to when I would play club lacrosse against Navy. We'd show up with 20 or so pretty good players on our undefeated team. Navy would have 150+ guys wrapped around the end of the sideline. We may have had better talent than most of them, but every sub had completely fresh legs. We did great for a half, then got smoked in the 2nd as we got tired and were facing guys who'd been chomping at the bit for a chance to get in all game.

Yes.

[Gater]

The PL is in the best shape it's been in in years.

The reality of the league is that you've only had three teams (Fordham, Lehigh, and Colgate) trying over the past 7 or so years. That's not a huge margin for error. Lehigh's poor defense and Fordham having some key injuries and a head coach (who should probably be a coordinator) were the only two things that actually went wrong for the league last year. A very young Colgate team played as well as it should have and was a poorly-officiated game away from 8-3. What was going to change at HC? Gilmore is who he is. Lafayette had a new coach with a ton of work to do. Bucknell wins a league title every 20 or so years and that seems OK for them--which is fine, they do well in most other sports. G'town is a great school that's chosen to be good basketball and horrible at football. This will never change until something changes.

The CAA has 12 teams so the sky isn't falling when Bill and Mary goes 2-9. Instead, Elon steps up and the CAA stays a premiere conference. Now, Lafayette and HC have new head coaches. That means five teams trying--giving you a much better chance at having two teams good enough to make some noise in the playoffs.

[CFBfan]

The PL is in the best shape it's been in in years.

The reality of the league is that you've only had three teams (Fordham, Lehigh, and Colgate) trying over the past 7 or so years. That's not a huge margin for error. Lehigh's poor defense and Fordham having some key injuries and a head coach (who should probably be a coordinator) were the only two things that actually went wrong for the league last year. A very young Colgate team played as well as it should have and was a poorly-officiated game away from 8-3. What was going to change at HC? Gilmore is who he is. Lafayette had a new coach with a ton of work to do. Bucknell wins a league title every 20 or so years and that seems OK for them--which is fine, they do well in most other sports. G'town is a great school that's chosen to be good basketball and horrible at football. This will never change until something changes.

The CAA has 12 teams so the sky isn't falling when Bill and Mary goes 2-9. Instead, Elon steps up and the CAA stays a premiere conference. Now, Lafayette and HC have new head coaches. That means five teams trying--giving you a much better chance at having two teams good enough to make some noise in the playoffs.

c'mon, it's no better off now than it was pre scholarship era

[RichH2]

c'mon, it's no better off now than it was pre scholarship era

Right now it is not. Combine our artificial restrictions with the time it took staffs to adjust to schollie recruiting and you have PL today.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The PL is in the best shape it's been in in years.

The reality of the league is that you've only had three teams (Fordham, Lehigh, and Colgate) trying over the past 7 or so years. That's not a huge margin for error. Lehigh's poor defense and Fordham having some key injuries and a head coach (who should probably be a coordinator) were the only two things that actually went wrong for the league last year. A very young Colgate team played as well as it should have and was a poorly-officiated game away from 8-3. What was going to change at HC? Gilmore is who he is. Lafayette had a new coach with a ton of work to do. Bucknell wins a league title every 20 or so years and that seems OK for them--which is fine, they do well in most other sports. G'town is a great school that's chosen to be good basketball and horrible at football. This will never change until something changes.

The CAA has 12 teams so the sky isn't falling when Bill and Mary goes 2-9. Instead, Elon steps up and the CAA stays a premiere conference. Now, Lafayette and HC have new head coaches. That means five teams trying--giving you a much better chance at having two teams good enough to make some noise in the playoffs.

I almost fell off my chair reading this!! xlolx

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

c'mon, it's no better off now than it was pre scholarship era

It's worse!! The league has become a laughingstock in FCS and justifiably so! Didn't Haley come out with an article in early October lamenting the issues the league was facing?

The league had zero ranked teams in the final poll for the first time years. The league will also have ZERO preseason Top 25 teams. How many times has that happened? The league is the only conference in 1-AA/FCS to send their rep with a losing record. And it's happened twice in the last 5 years!! In 2017 the league 1, ONE, team with a winning record! Lehigh put forth easily the worst back-2-back playoff performances in league history. Even worse than the 3 year run of '06, '07 and '08.

To suggest the league is in the best shape in years is simply delusional! There's nothing factual that backs up his belief.....

[Lehigh'98]

It's worse!! The league has become a laughingstock in FCS and justifiably so! Didn't Haley come out with an article in early October lamenting the issues the league was facing?

The league had zero ranked teams in the final poll for the first time years. The league will also have ZERO preseason Top 25 teams. How many times has that happened? The league is the only conference in 1-AA/FCS to send their rep with a losing record. And it's happened twice in the last 5 years!! In 2017 the league 1, ONE, team with a winning record! Lehigh put forth easily the worst back-2-back playoff performances in league history. Even worse than the 3 year run of '06, '07 and '08.

To suggest the league is in the best shape in years is simply delusional! There's nothing factual that backs up his belief.....

We were definitely better at the top of the league before scholarships. Those teams could compete with other teams and win some too. Colgate is 2015 is beginning to seem like more of an aberration than the norm.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

We were definitely better at the top of the league before scholarships. Those teams could compete with other teams and win some too. Colgate is 2015 is beginning to seem like more of an aberration than the norm.

The reality is, the league hasn't been very good for the last decade. IMO, only 2009 Holy Cross, 2011 Lehigh and 2013 Fordham were really good and nationally viable from the start of the year until the end. They had big time players, had dominating wins and performed well in the OOC. Colgate's 2015 playoff run was nice but when you look at what happened before and after their two week playoff run it appears to be an aberration. They can prove their merit this year in the OOC and gain some respect back. If not, it will be more of the same middling.

Objectively, I don't see how anyone can reasonably say the league is in good shape going into 2018. There is nothing to substantiate that angle. Holy Cross and Lafayette might have new coaches but imo there are far bigger issues at each school regarding athletics. Nate Pine hired Carmody 3 years ago which was thought to be the turning of the tide. As of January 2018 Crusader basketball remains horrific under Carmody. Lafayette athletics stink. Especially men's/women's basketball and football. These schools have no idea what the hell they're doing.

[RichH2]

The reality is, the league hasn't been very good for the last decade. IMO, only 2009 Holy Cross, 2011 Lehigh and 2013 Fordham were really good and nationally viable from the start of the year until the end. They had big time players, had dominating wins and performed well in the OOC. Colgate's 2015 playoff run was nice but when you look at what happened before and after their two week playoff run it appears to be an aberration. They can prove their merit this year in the OOC and gain some respect back. If not, it will be more of the same middling.

Objectively, I don't see how anyone can reasonably say the league is in good shape going into 2018. There is nothing to substantiate that angle. Holy Cross and Lafayette might have new coaches but imo there are far bigger issues at each school regarding athletics. Nate Pine hired Carmody 3 years ago which was thought to be the turning of the tide. As of January 2018 Crusader basketball remains horrific under Carmody. Lafayette athletics stink. Especially men's/women's basketball and football. These schools have no idea what the hell they're doing.


To turn the tide for PL. Not a group possibility I' m afraid. Issues at some schools arise from the administration or culture of the school. New coaches at Cross and Lafayette may produce results in time. A wait and see. Across the board major failing in this era has been poor recruiting. I do think it has improved but proof of that is a year or two away. League wide action to modify current restrictions will help a lot but expect if we do see some easing it will be in minute increments unlikely to provide much immediate help.
At base, even with some changes, the ultimate burden falls on coaches. Coen needs to fix a 4 yr catastrophe on D. Susan needs to find an O. Chesney needs to get athletes. Garrett needs to also find an O with an OL. Gate actually has the basics now but not much luck. Fordham needs everything. Hoyas need money.

[Gater]

It's worse!! The league has become a laughingstock in FCS and justifiably so! Didn't Haley come out with an article in early October lamenting the issues the league was facing?

The league had zero ranked teams in the final poll for the first time years. The league will also have ZERO preseason Top 25 teams. How many times has that happened? The league is the only conference in 1-AA/FCS to send their rep with a losing record. And it's happened twice in the last 5 years!! In 2017 the league 1, ONE, team with a winning record! Lehigh put forth easily the worst back-2-back playoff performances in league history. Even worse than the 3 year run of '06, '07 and '08.

To suggest the league is in the best shape in years is simply delusional! There's nothing factual that backs up his belief.....


Three PL teams have been trying to win. Let's say Lehigh is Villanova, Fordham is Albany, and Colgate is Bill and Mary. Those three CAA teams went a combined 11-22 last year. If those were the only three teams in the CAA trying to win, you'd be screaming your head off that 'Nova got the autobid with a losing record. Those are all good programs that had off years. The problem with the PL is that Lafayette (Elon) hasn't been trying and neither has HC (Stony Brook). Get those teams trying--which I now believe they are-- and the league's odds for success increase dramatically (look the years Elon and SB had). Five teams trying vs. three teams trying is the difference. 2017 was a low point. 2018 may match it, but the league has a much better shot at producing two or more good teams in 2019 and beyond.

[RichH2]

Seems I fall somewhere between the doomsayers and the optimists. Realiy is obvious. PL sucks. Is it our pre ordained future? Or is it a slump? I lean towards a slump by the top 3 for a variety of reasons. All fixable. The crux , of course, besides the quality of coaches, is the drag of PL restrictions. I am hopeful that our ADs will pressure to start modifications. Even if not, Lehigh, Colgate and Fordham have the will and ability to do it. Cross and Lafayette may also given some time. We may get a few nice surprises next year but I think we are a few more years away from not embarrassing ourselves as a conference.

[van]

Seems I fall somewhere between the doomsayers and the optimists. Realiy is obvious. PL sucks. Is it our pre ordained future? Or is it a slump? I lean towards a slump by the top 3 for a variety of reasons. All fixable. The crux , of course, besides the quality of coaches, is the drag of PL restrictions. I am hopeful that our ADs will pressure to start modifications. Even if not, Lehigh, Colgate and Fordham have the will and ability to do it. Cross and Lafayette may also given some time. We may get a few nice surprises next year but I think we are a few more years away from embarrassing ourselves as a conference.

but does Lehigh have the will to fix coaching?

[RichH2]

but does Lehigh have the will to fix coaching? does Andy? He has done it over his career but usually a couple of years after it should have been done. Joe is patient but not to the same extreme. If no substantive changes and same abysmal D, I would not be surprised if Joe hung that choice on Andy. Four years of bad to atrocious D must have consequences for staff. I get giving Sutyak a second year at DC but there has to be actual improvement.

[Go...gate]

I am surprised Lehigh is standing pat with the defensive coaching staff.

[RichH2]

I am surprised Lehigh is standing pat with the defensive coaching staff.

Does seem at first glance to be puzzling. Admittedly also seems that way upon 2nd 3rd and 4th glances. Staff has had a lot of turnover and DCs over the last 3 years. Last year a new DC who installed a new set. DL had veterans. LBs were coverted Ss. 2ndary also all veteran. Didnt last long. Other than 1 S all others out injured plus some 2nds. Latter part of the season we were playing 4 frosh back there. DL looked to be strong. Other than 1 All PL DT, the line usually failed to come close to controlling the LOS. Other than 1 2nd string LB, the unit.struggled mightily.
An ongoing problem going back years, tackling was a lost art. Simply terrible.
After all this jibber jabber, our D sucked yet again. What to do? Not sure firing staff will solve the problem, no matter how emotionally satisfying. Teaching players how to tackle all alone will make our D at least competitive.

[Go...gate]

Do you take some good athletes on the offensive side and move them? Colgate did that under Fred Dunlap and Dick Biddle on occasion.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Does seem at first glance to be puzzling. Admittedly also seems that way upon 2nd 3rd and 4th glances. Staff has had a lot of turnover and DCs over the last 3 years. Last year a new DC who installed a new set. DL had veterans. LBs were coverted Ss. 2ndary also all veteran. Didnt last long. Other than 1 S all others out injured plus some 2nds. Latter part of the season we were playing 4 frosh back there. DL looked to be strong. Other than 1 All PL DT, the line usually failed to come close to controlling the LOS. Other than 1 2nd string LB, the unit.struggled mightily.
An ongoing problem going back years, tackling was a lost art. Simply terrible.
After all this jibber jabber, our D sucked yet again. What to do? Not sure firing staff will solve the problem, no matter how emotionally satisfying. Teaching players how to tackle all alone will make our D at least competitive.

Get rid of most, if not all, of the staff and find one or two transfers on defense that can come in and make an immediate impact. That's what I would do. There is literally zero reason to believe the Lehigh defense will be significantly better next year. Even if it improves some (going from historically bad to simply bad or below average) by doing nothing what the hell does that ultimately accomplish in the long run? If Lehigh goes from the 123rd ranked defense to the 90th ranked defense and they go 6-5 because Mayes and Brags carried the team is Coen going to be singing praises of his defense? He seemed extremely out of touch this year given how horrific his team performed at times. Lehigh would give up 45 points and he'd claim the kids are doing what they're told and "competing". WTF was he looking at?!?!

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Three PL teams have been trying to win. Let's say Lehigh is Villanova, Fordham is Albany, and Colgate is Bill and Mary. Those three CAA teams went a combined 11-22 last year. If those were the only three teams in the CAA trying to win, you'd be screaming your head off that 'Nova got the autobid with a losing record. Those are all good programs that had off years. The problem with the PL is that Lafayette (Elon) hasn't been trying and neither has HC (Stony Brook). Get those teams trying--which I now believe they are-- and the league's odds for success increase dramatically (look the years Elon and SB had). Five teams trying vs. three teams trying is the difference. 2017 was a low point. 2018 may match it, but the league has a much better shot at producing two or more good teams in 2019 and beyond.

What have they been trying to win? The Patriot League and what? Nothing I see from Lehigh, Colgate and Fordham indicate to me they're trying to seriously compete at a national level. The league has so many self imposed restrictions. Plus each individual school seems to have one or two quirky things that ultimately compounds the problem. Combine both factors and no one is gaining traction nationally.

What I find amusing is how San Diego has slipped in and become the nationally relevant "non-scholarship" program. Watching their playoff game this year against NAU was like watching Lehigh-WIU in 2000. Both teams went into the oppositions house and ran them off the field. The Toreros would have won the PL this year and likely last year too.

I've said all along scholarships guarantee you nothing competitively. There's always been terrible scholarship programs in at every level. I'm frustrated because the PL is comprised of 6 programs varying from middling to awful and 1 terrible non-scholarship program.

I'm not trying to be Debbie downer but look around and observe. Do some research on what's going on in the PL and nationally. I try to be as objective as possible without having any preconceived pessimism. That's Carney's job....

[RichH2]

Get rid of most, if not all, of the staff and find one or two transfers on defense that can come in and make an immediate impact. That's what I would do. There is literally zero reason to believe the Lehigh defense will be significantly better next year. Even if it improves some (going from historically bad to simply bad or below average) by doing nothing what the hell does that ultimately accomplish in the long run? If Lehigh goes from the 123rd ranked defense to the 90th ranked defense and they go 6-5 because Mayes and Brags carried the team is Coen going to be singing praises of his defense? He seemed extremely out of touch this year given how horrific his team performed at times. Lehigh would give up 45 points and he'd claim the kids are doing what they're told and "competing". WTF was he looking at?!?!
Owl we can keep rehashing the same issues. Dont think either of us will change our minds. But as to your suggestions.
Transfers? Would be nice if we could get some difference makers. Not many available tho and they certainly are not an on demand quantity at our level.
Fire the whole staff? And replace them with who? A high level if experienced D coaches particularly a DC cost money. Or replace them with another batch of young up and comers and roll the dice thats the next set will be better. This bunch are basically in their 2nd year following the disastrous experiment with Roberts. That period to me is the major reason we have been so bad. Terrible recruiting and game management . Botts retirement will help this group.
Andy did seem out of touch for whatever reason during the first half of the year. Did appear back to his normal towards the end of the year. It does appear tho that he follows the Small rule that best athletes go on O. We sure do recruit much better talent there.:)
I cant dispute the results ladt couple of years for Fordham Colgate and Lehigh. I do not accept that it is now imposdible for them to be nationally competitive now. Dont see it for next year tho :)

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Owl we can keep rehashing the same issues. Dont think either of us will change our minds. But as to your suggestions.
Transfers? Would be nice if we could get some difference makers. Not many available tho and they certainly are not an on demand quantity at our level.
Fire the whole staff? And replace them with who? A high level if experienced D coaches particularly a DC cost money. Or replace them with another batch of young up and comers and roll the dice thats the next set will be better. This bunch are basically in their 2nd year following the disastrous experiment with Roberts. That period to me is the major reason we have been so bad. Terrible recruiting and game management . Botts retirement will help this group.

I know Rich because it's literally insanity! And if you read between the lines it all comes back to a LACK OF COMMITMENT at one level or another being the ultimate issue! There is something holding either Coen or the program back. That's the most frustrating thing if you support the Lehigh program and/or the league! We can talk hypotheticals all we want but the reality is nothing of any great consequence is changing. The same X and O's, the same jimmy and joes and the same commitment from the administration.

[RichH2]

I know Rich because it's literally insanity! And if you read between the lines it all comes back to a LACK OF COMMITMENT at one level or another being the ultimate issue! There is something holding either Coen or the program back. That's the most frustrating thing if you support the Lehigh program and/or the league! We can talk hypotheticals all we want but the reality is nothing of any great consequence is changing. The same X and O's, the same jimmy and joes and the same commitment from the administration.
So we both agree. Something is holding us back and something must be done :) We just cant quite agree on what. Free up Botts' salary and Roberts( paid at level of co-HC) ans we'd have some money for a good experienced coach. Altho, right now that would likely go for a new OL coach. Dang

[PAllen]

So we both agree. Something is holding us back and something must be done :) We just cant quite agree on what. Free up Botts' salary and Roberts( paid at level of co-HC) ans we'd have some money for a good experienced coach. Altho, right now that would likely go for a new OL coach. Dang

I hear Gilmore might be looking for a job. He did pretty well as a DC at this level.

[Neighbor2]

but does Lehigh have the will to fix coaching?


ABSOLUTELY NOT. Thus, the obvious decline. Only the Lehigh Administration can fix the fall. They had four years to take substantive action . . . . but didn't.

[RichH2]

I hear Gilmore might be looking for a job. He did pretty well as a DC at this level.
:) Tom certainly one of the most entertaining sideline coaches Ive ever seen and heard. :) A very good DC.
Return tours for prior DCs has not worked well for us tho.

[UNHWildcat18]

Yes, they struggle but there's a mighty difference between struggle and suck. It's like those Army teams of the 2000's versus, say, Rutgers. Army was undersized, underfunded, and underappreciated, but they never gave up.

So too with Georgetown. I have no doubt that if Georgetown ever got its institutional house in order, they would stomp on opponents and be the PL's version of Villanova, not its Davidson. Instead, much like USMA in the Rich Ellerson years, they didn't bring in the talent that other schools can and they got beat up in the trenches.

For those who say "But Georgetown gets talent", answer this: when was the last offensive recruit from Georgetown in the Patriot League to make first or second team all conference...crickets. xscanx

Because in 17 years, it's never happened. Not one! (Georgetown's one PL offensive designee was a MAAC era player, and there was one special teams player who was actually a safety.) Lehigh has had close to 50 different players in those 17 years make all-league. How would the Engineers fare without a single all-PL performer on offense for 17 years?

And where is the three-star talent, the kind of person that can make an impact, not merely a difference, that can get admitted and want to come? We can go around and around on scholarships or facilities. Without some impact talent, Georgetown does not progress in the PL.

Regardless of competitiveness from an outside perspective they would be seen as "sucks". I know you have been competitive in most games and I feel bad your school admin is a bunch of ****ing idiots that are making the program more of a waste of money than an asset to the school. I hope things will eventually change for you guys.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Bucknell- they havent had a plus 0.500 record in the last 10 have they?


Bucknell has had 2 winning seasons in the last five (2013: 6-5, 2014: 8-3), and did go 3-2 in the non-con part of the 2017 schedule.

But go ahead, resume the flogging. You guys are a bunch of fun. This is going to be a truly upbeat off-season.

[CFBfan]

Three PL teams have been trying to win. Let's say Lehigh is Villanova, Fordham is Albany, and Colgate is Bill and Mary. Those three CAA teams went a combined 11-22 last year. If those were the only three teams in the CAA trying to win, you'd be screaming your head off that 'Nova got the autobid with a losing record. Those are all good programs that had off years. The problem with the PL is that Lafayette (Elon) hasn't been trying and neither has HC (Stony Brook). Get those teams trying--which I now believe they are-- and the league's odds for success increase dramatically (look the years Elon and SB had). Five teams trying vs. three teams trying is the difference. 2017 was a low point. 2018 may match it, but the league has a much better shot at producing two or more good teams in 2019 and beyond.

What in the world are you talking about?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I still contend it's not the 60 scholarships vs 63. It's the roster limits. I equate it to when I would play club lacrosse against Navy. We'd show up with 20 or so pretty good players on our undefeated team. Navy would have 150+ guys wrapped around the end of the sideline. We may have had better talent than most of them, but every sub had completely fresh legs. We did great for a half, then got smoked in the 2nd as we got tired and were facing guys who'd been chomping at the bit for a chance to get in all game.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to PAllen again.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You guys are going to make me make a "What's Wrong with the Patriot League, Part 2" post, aren't you?

[RichH2]

You guys are going to make me make a "What's Wrong with the Patriot League, Part 2" post, aren't you?


We all know what is wrong with the PL. WE have beaten it to a bloodyy death. We disagree on the causitive values to be attributed to each. And, of course, what to do to fix this situation.

[PAllen]

:) Tom certainly one of the most entertaining sideline coaches Ive ever seen and heard. :) A very good DC.
Return tours for prior DCs has not worked well for us tho.

It worked well for an OC from the same era.

[RichH2]

It worked well for an OC from the same era.
:) I would take him back in a heartbeat. HC sounds nice docha think ? :)

[Sader87]

This will be a very interesting next 5 or so years at HC I believe. Much has been put into producing a successful football program at this level (90MM practice facility, upgrades in scheduling, a new staff starting this year etc).....if we are still futzing around football-wise 5 or 6 years from now as we have been, it wouldn't shock me if HC folded up the tents football-wise in the 2020s.

[UNHWildcat18]

This will be a very interesting next 5 or so years at HC I believe. Much has been put into producing a successful football program at this level (90MM practice facility, upgrades in scheduling, a new staff starting this year etc).....if we are still futzing around football-wise 5 or 6 years from now as we have been, it wouldn't shock me if HC folded up the tents football-wise in the 2020s.

I have faith you will return to form soon. The AE/CAAFB invite will be waiting when URI dumps football in 2022 xthumbsupx

[DFW HOYA]

I have faith you will return to form soon. The AE/CAAFB invite will be waiting when URI dumps football in 2022 xthumbsupx

No, that's when the CAA spins off the A-10 Football League:

Davidson
Duquesne
Dayton
Fordham
Rhode Island
2 teams TBA

But HC will pass on the A-10 because they're still not in the entertainment business.

[DFW HOYA]

We all know what is wrong with the PL. WE have beaten it to a bloodyy death. We disagree on the causitive values to be attributed to each. And, of course, what to do to fix this situation.

Let's agree on these seven points. If the PL cannot answer "yes" to each of these questions, it goes nowhere.

1. There is a problem.

2. It is the league's problem.

3. It is a big enough problem that I want the league to address it.

4. I have an idea of what the league can do to address it.

5. The league is willing to change in order to address it.

6. I have confidence in the league's ability to address it.

7. It is worth the effort and cost it will take to address it.

[RichH2]

Let's agree on these seven points. If the PL cannot answer "yes" to each of these questions, it goes nowhere.

1. There is a problem.

2. It is the league's problem.

3. It is a big enough problem that I want the league to address it.

4. I have an idea of what the league can do to address it.

5. The league is willing to change in order to address it.

6. I have confidence in the league's ability to address it.

7. It is worth the effort and cost it will take to address it.
+1

[The Boogie Down]

No, that's when the CAA spins off the A-10 Football League:

Davidson
Duquesne
Dayton
Fordham
Rhode Island
2 teams TBA

But HC will pass on the A-10 because they're still not in the entertainment business.


3 TBA teams would give A-10 Football League 2.0 a nice and even eight teams. But,,, being that the Big East (when not crying about the ACC) has made a living off poaching A-10 teams, why not make those 3 teams Georgetown, Villanova and Butler while turning A-10 Football League 2.0 into Big East Football Conference 2.0?


Big East Football 2.0 could even be broken in 2 divisions:
North (aka the full/some scholies division)
URI
FU
Nova
Duq

South (aka the limited/no scholies division)
G-town
Davidson
Dayton
Butler

[carney2]

This will be a very interesting next 5 or so years at HC I believe. Much has been put into producing a successful football program at this level (90MM practice facility, upgrades in scheduling, a new staff starting this year etc).....if we are still futzing around football-wise 5 or 6 years from now as we have been, it wouldn't shock me if HC folded up the tents football-wise in the 2020s.

The Woos will just be next man up. Set your calendars for December 31, 2018. If the new Lafayette AD attends her New Year's Eve party still reporting to the woman who used to hand out dorm room keys instead of the President of the College, it's D-3 or sell the helmets for the Pards.

[RichH2]

The Woos will just be next man up. Set your calendars for December 31, 2018. If the new Lafayette AD attends her New Year's Eve party still reporting to the woman who used to hand out dorm room keys instead of the President of the College, it's D-3 or sell the helmets for the Pards.
How much for a helmet. :)

[Go...gate]

The Woos will just be next man up. Set your calendars for December 31, 2018. If the new Lafayette AD attends her New Year's Eve party still reporting to the woman who used to hand out dorm room keys instead of the President of the College, it's D-3 or sell the helmets for the Pards.

If you guys dropped to D-III, what would happen to the Lehigh rivalry? They show no signs of leaving D-I.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

If you guys dropped to D-III, what would happen to the Lehigh rivalry? They show no signs of leaving D-I.

Lehigh vs Lafayette Jeopardy! followed by DeSales, Moravian and Muhlenberg Wheel of Fortune on WFMZ. Need to keep the intellects in their proper place....

[LehighU11]

If you guys dropped to D-III, what would happen to the Lehigh rivalry? They show no signs of leaving D-I.
Not only does Lehigh show no signs of leaving D-I, the University is increasing its undergraduate enrollment by 1,000 students (+20%) over the next 5 years. That is likely to place LC at an even greater competitive disadvantage if the current state of athletics on College Hill does not change. The new AD hire at LC sounds promising.

[Colgate Raider Redux]

This will be a very interesting next 5 or so years at HC I believe. .

The best thing you can do for your sanity 87 is to objectively understand the state of the H.C. FB Program RIGHT NOW. ( One winning season in the last 6 does not reflect that H.C. was "not trying to win," especially in the last couple of years. Perhaps there are some imbedded issues ? ) No real change in recruiting results currently. Not much game-experienced talent left in the cupboard after graduation. Not much will change on the field in the years immediately ahead, despite the fact that "much has been put into producing a successful football program." And despite what goes on in your imagination. Four years of a new AD stewarding the program's "renaissance" reflects some attempts at brand promotion--but, no tangible performance progress. Eighteen year old recruits don't know of the "HC of the Glory Years" you've selectively created in your imagination...Indeed, they have a hard time distinguishing the "University of the Holy Cross" from Fairfield, Sacred Heart, Assumption et. al.. Given the schedules and the tendency for the H.C. faithful to misread the value of the H.C. brand today, some embarrassments and challenges to the FB strategy are almost certain by the end of the 2nd or 3rd year.. The schedules reflect an effort to position H.C. with better known and more prestigious institutions-- marketing, pure and simple. But, no one has "certified" or "willed" that H.C. is suddenly ready for the competition it has scheduled in the years immediately ahead. Hopefully, in years 4, 5 and beyond. the program culture and performance might begin to reflect the "much that has been put into producing a successful football program." What does that look like--.500 seasons ? championships ? If you truly understand what's involved in a 5 year turnaround of a program in H.C.'s condition, you're prepared for some very tough years and relaxing into QUIETLY eating your "humble pie" in the years immediately ahead!

[Neighbor2]

Perhaps the Patriot League needs to be honest with its fans. Stop the charade. Playing at the highest level of FCS is not important. Improvements being suggested here really are not necessary to the desired Patriot League football mission.

Why not find 3-4 like-minded new football members, announce the league will no longer participate in post-season playoffs? Fans and recruits can rest easy and adjust. Winning the Patriot League Championship IS the highest measure of success. Make a good time of it. Step-up in competition once or twice per year. . . . . for amusement only.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The best thing you can do for your sanity is to objectively understand the state of the H.C. FB Program RIGHT NOW. ( One winning season in the last 6 is not the product of "not trying." ) No real change in recruiting currently. Not much talent in the cupboard after graduation. Not much will change on the field in the years immediately ahead, despite the fact that "much has been put into producing a successful football program." And despite what goes on in your imagination. Four years of a new AD stewarding the program's renaissance reflects no tangible performance progress. Eighteen year old recruits have a hard time distinguishing the "University of the Holy Cross" from Fairfield, Sacred Heatt, Assumption et. al.. Given the schedules and the way the H.C. faithful have a tendency to get "ahead of their ski's," some embarrassments are almost certain immediately ahead. The schedules are marketing, pure and simple.....No one has "willed" that H.C. is suddenly ready for the competition it has scheduled in the years immediately ahead. Year 4, 5 etc. might begin to reflect the "much that has been put into producing a successful football program." . If you truly understand what's involved in a 5 year turnaround, you're prepared for some very tough years and relaxing into quietly eating your "humble pie" immediately ahead!

Absolutely nailed it! Great post!

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Perhaps the Patriot League needs to be honest with its fans. Stop the charade. Playing at the highest level of FCS is not important. Improvements being suggested here really are not necessary to the desired Patriot League football mission.

Why not find 3-4 like-minded new football members, announce the league will no longer participate in post-season playoffs? Fans and recruits can rest easy and adjust. Winning the Patriot League Championship IS the highest measure of success. Make a good time of it. Step-up in competition once or twice per year. . . . . for amusement only.

If the PL continues to struggle in the playoffs AND FCS remains dominated by NDSU by say 2020 I could see the schools rethinking their course of action. It's not like they'd be alone as a non-playoff conference.

[Neighbor2]

If the PL continues to struggle in the playoffs AND FCS remains dominated by NDSU by say 2020 I could see the schools rethinking their course of action. It's not like they'd be alone as a non-playoff conference.

Actually, I'd be satisfied just to know what the Patriot League football goal is, athletically. I've enjoyed MANY Ivy League battles over the years knowing full well both competing teams would not be participating in the playoffs after the IL Championship. Just good, basic football between hard-working students. No false hopes. Not hard to imagine the current difficulty recruiting players to the present Patriot League.

[carney2]

How much for a helmet. :)

A new helmet goes for over $300. Used is a different story. Lafayette helmets would, of course, be classified as very lightly used.

[carney2]

If you guys dropped to D-III, what would happen to the Lehigh rivalry? They show no signs of leaving D-I.

I doubt if the powers-that-be at Lafayette would give it a second thought. A mere footnote in the history of the College.

[carney2]

The new AD hire at LC sounds promising.

From all outward appearances, she seems intelligent and motivated. There is no indication that she is the person to drive this bus to D-3. My hopes are that she asked all the right questions, and got some ironclad assurances about her - and athletics' - place in the scheme of things. Supposedly, The Study will now be dragged out of its super secret hiding place and we can begin to read the tea leaves.

[RichH2]

From all outward appearances, she seems intelligent and motivated. There is no indication that she is the person to drive this bus to D-3. My hopes are that she asked all the right questions, and got some ironclad assurances about her - and athletics' - place in the scheme of things. Supposedly, The Study will now be dragged out of its super secret hiding place and we can begin to read the tea leaves.
I sure hope so. For us and for the PL to improve, Pards have to do so. Having a bunch of teams that are barely competitive with themselves renders any hopes of national improvement a fantasy.

[Sader87]

The best thing you can do for your sanity 87 is to objectively understand the state of the H.C. FB Program RIGHT NOW. ( One winning season in the last 6 does not reflect that H.C. was "not trying to win," especially in the last couple of years.Perhaps there are some imbedded issues ? ) No real change in recruiting results currently. Not much game-experienced talent left in the cupboard after graduation. Not much will change on the field in the years immediately ahead, despite the fact that "much has been put into producing a successful football program." And despite what goes on in your imagination. Four years of a new AD stewarding the program's "renaissance" reflects some attempts at brand promotion--but, no tangible performance progress. Eighteen year old recruits don't know of the "HC of the Glory Years" you've selectively created in your imagination...Indeed, they have a hard time distinguishing the "University of the Holy Cross" from Fairfield, Sacred Heart, Assumption et. al.. Given the schedules and the tendency for the H.C. faithful to misread the value of the H.C. brand today, some embarrassments and challenges to the FB strategy are almost certain by the end of the 2nd or 3rd year.. The schedules reflect an effort to position H.C. with better known and more prestigious institutions-- marketing, pure and simple. No one has "certified" or "willed" that H.C. is suddenly ready for the competition it has scheduled in the years immediately ahead. Hopefully, year 4, 5 and beyond. might begin to reflect the "much that has been put into producing a successful football program." What does that look like--.500 seasons ? championships ? If you truly understand what's involved in a 5 year turnaround of a program in H.C.'s condition, you're prepared for some very tough years and relaxing into QUIETLY eating your "humble pie" in the years immediately ahead!

I love how you're of the belief that Colgate's football program is that much more ahead of HC's vis a vis national relevance anyway.

As others have stated here, I think PL football may continue on as of late (schollies, other program upgrades etc) for a bit...5 years? 10 years? And then possibly reassess the existence of the sport at a D1 scholarship-level.

Holy Cross nearly dropped football in the early 1970s....it's not inconceivable for that discussion to start up again (in fact it already has in certain quarters).

[Colgate Raider Redux]

....that much more ahead of HC's vis a vis national relevance anyway.

I think the brands of PL schools, as educational institutions, currently have better recognition nationally than H.C.. That's not a subjective value judgment. This is where "relevance" begins. Schools like USMA, Navy and Boston are extreme examples of the contrast to H.C... I think H.C. has become a "regional school" reflecting its lack of regional diversification and its dependence on a shrinking pool of Massachusetts and New England college aged students. Inclusion in USNWR's category of National Liberal Arts Colleges is a mis-classification. In PL schools, "national relevance" in an individual sport is an embellishment on the national notoriety the schools have already earned as institutions. It generally is not a means to it, as the strategy appears to be currently at H.C.. I think you're right that there may be a finite life to PL football as we currently know it. But, I must admit I haven't given much thought to the comparaive "national relevance" of PL football programs, in the way in which you refer to it. Your concept seems so detached from the school brand. Or putting the cart before the horse, if you will. Consistency with one's brand as an institution over an uninterrupted period of time seems more important for determining "relevance" than intermittent national competition. That's why PL schools have successfully developed broad portfolios of men's and women's DI intercollegiate sports. They each seem to find their days in the sun to counterbalance one another. PL schools have determined that's more significant in supporting the school's identity nationally ( "relevance ?" ) than the football program alone might be. This seems very dissimilar to H.C.'s strategy ? In any case, given how you've described PL fb's life expectancy, seems like H.C. is putting in a lot of effort in "garbage time."

[RichH2]

Lehigh losses two stud receivers as noted and 3 starting OL as well on O, several underclass OL got starts this year and held their own so I think the OL will reload OK, hard to say on the receivers as they did not get a lot of playing time but Christiano should be back from injury and Kelsey is eligible for a 5th year if he chooses, Coaches were high on Bibbens and Porto returns from a great FR year, all in all expect the O to be very strong again next year

on D we lose Cavenas who is a beast on the DL and will be sorely missed, Jones is a stand out senior DB but could get a medical 5th also, other than those 2 and some DL that rotated the D was pretty young this year and playing in a new scheme, so there is some reason to be optimistic about next years D being improved, at least improved from the first half of this year
Agree for the most part. Brad needs to settle in on his reads a bit better but otherwise he is an excelleny QB in all phases. RB return the Dirty Bs as well as two 3* RBs in Chadbourne and Allen. OL will be fine if not guite up to last years. WR lost 2 of the best we've ever had. Not quickly replaced. That said a lot of talent returns and the 3 coming in look to be very good. D ???? Hope you're right. A lot of athletes not much cohesion or tackling. Rybka will surely help on DL. LB and DBs well I hope experience helps.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Speaking of Holy Cross vs Colgate relevancy, I have a question that's been bugging me for years.

How could Lockbaum finish 3rd in Heisman voting in 1987 yet Kenny Gamble won the Payton Award? I know 1987 was the first year of the Payton so there might have been some technicalities but it's something that's always perplexed me. I saw Lockbaum lead HC to a rout of Lehigh in '87 at Taylor Stadium.

[UNHWildcat18]

I think the brands of PL schools, as educational institutions, currently have better recognition nationally than H.C.. That's not a subjective value judgment. This is where "relevance" begins. Schools like USMA, Navy and Boston are extreme examples of the contrast to H.C... I think H.C. has become a "regional school" reflecting its lack of regional diversification and its dependence on a shrinking pool of Massachusetts and New England college aged students. Inclusion in USNWR's category of National Liberal Arts Colleges is a mis-classification. In PL schools, "national relevance" in an individual sport is an embellishment on the national notoriety the schools have already earned as institutions. It generally is not a means to it, as the strategy appears to be currently at H.C.. I think you're right that there may be a finite life to PL football as we currently know it. But, I must admit I haven't given much thought to the comparaive "national relevance" of PL football programs, in the way in which you refer to it. Your concept seems so detached from the school brand. Or putting the cart before the horse, if you will. Consistency with one's brand as an institution over an uninterrupted period of time seems more important for determining "relevance" than intermittent national competition. That's why PL schools have successfully developed broad portfolios of men's and women's DI intercollegiate sports. They each seem to find their days in the sun to counterbalance one another. PL schools have determined that's more significant in supporting the school's identity nationally ( "relevance ?" ) than the football program alone might be. This seems very dissimilar to H.C.'s strategy ? In any case, given how you've described PL fb's life expectancy, seems like H.C. is putting in a lot of effort in "garbage time."

What's a Colgate University? like the Toothpaste?

[PAllen]

If you guys dropped to D-III, what would happen to the Lehigh rivalry? They show no signs of leaving D-I.

FCS schools play NAIA schools all the time. We can end the season with a drubbing of D-III Lafayette.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

We are 39 pages into this, and I am now finally realizing that what I need to write a "What is the Patriot League?" post, something I think I've done every once in a while

[Sader87]

Speaking of Holy Cross vs Colgate relevancy, I have a question that's been bugging me for years.

How could Lockbaum finish 3rd in Heisman voting in 1987 yet Kenny Gamble won the Payton Award? I know 1987 was the first year of the Payton so there might have been some technicalities but it's something that's always perplexed me. I saw Lockbaum lead HC to a rout of Lehigh in '87 at Taylor Stadium.

Good question actually... my guess (and i don't know) is that Lockbaum's run to the Heisman made him ineligible for the 1-AA award....not sure, Gamble was a great back to be sure

[Go...gate]

Good question actually... my guess (and i don't know) is that Lockbaum's run to the Heisman made him ineligible for the 1-AA award....not sure, Gamble was a great back to be sure

Both were marvelous players - a pleasure to watch.

[Go...gate]

I love how you're of the belief that Colgate's football program is that much more ahead of HC's vis a vis national relevance anyway.

As others have stated here, I think PL football may continue on as of late (schollies, other program upgrades etc) for a bit...5 years? 10 years? And then possibly reassess the existence of the sport at a D1 scholarship-level.

Holy Cross nearly dropped football in the early 1970s....it's not inconceivable for that discussion to start up again (in fact it already has in certain quarters).

Having seen both great and dreadful football seasons at Colgate going back nearly sixty years, I take nothing for granted. I support them no matter what.

[Neighbor2]

Speaking of Holy Cross vs Colgate relevancy, I have a question that's been bugging me for years.

How could Lockbaum finish 3rd in Heisman voting in 1987 yet Kenny Gamble won the Payton Award? I know 1987 was the first year of the Payton so there might have been some technicalities but it's something that's always perplexed me. I saw Lockbaum lead HC to a rout of Lehigh in '87 at Taylor Stadium.

I also attended that 1987 blow-out game at Taylor Stadium. Without looking it up, I believe the score was 63-6 Holy Cross. Interest in Lockbaum was heightened because he played BOTH Offense and Defense. The national media jumped all over the 'relic from the past' angle. Of course, he was an exceptional player just on Offense, but his versatility on both sides the field made him one-of-a-kind that year. The interest in him was so high across the nation, from sports writers and fans, his trip to New York was too important to pass up. A sentimental, underdog favorite, so to speak.

Kenny Gamble was indeed a national-class running back in a field of several from bigger schools who received bigger coverage.

[TheValleyRaider]

What's a Colgate University? like the Toothpaste?

Short memories in Durham: http://gocolgateraiders.com/news/2015/11/28/FB_1128154945.aspx

:p

[ngineer]

Actually, I'd be satisfied just to know what the Patriot League football goal is, athletically. I've enjoyed MANY Ivy League battles over the years knowing full well both competing teams would not be participating in the playoffs after the IL Championship. Just good, basic football between hard-working students. No false hopes. Not hard to imagine the current difficulty recruiting players to the present Patriot League.

We may well end up back to having a year end "playoff" game for some trophy with the IL Champ. Game could be played in Yankee Stadium and draw a crowd bigger than the FCS Championship.

- - - Updated - - -


Actually, I'd be satisfied just to know what the Patriot League football goal is, athletically. I've enjoyed MANY Ivy League battles over the years knowing full well both competing teams would not be participating in the playoffs after the IL Championship. Just good, basic football between hard-working students. No false hopes. Not hard to imagine the current difficulty recruiting players to the present Patriot League.

We may well end up back to having a year end "playoff" game for some trophy with the IL Champ. Game could be played in Yankee Stadium and draw a crowd bigger than the FCS Championship.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

We may well end up back to having a year end "playoff" game for some trophy with the IL Champ. Game could be played in Yankee Stadium and draw a crowd bigger than the FCS Championship.

- - - Updated - - -



We may well end up back to having a year end "playoff" game for some trophy with the IL Champ. Game could be played in Yankee Stadium and draw a crowd bigger than the FCS Championship.

I hope not.

[Neighbor2]

ngineer-

I could settle-in nicely (as a fan) in that scenario. Sure seems a more comfortable place for Patriot League administrators. Better to do well and enjoy what you ARE, than to struggle and be frustrated with what you're NOT.

[TheValleyRaider]

ngineer-

I could settle-in nicely (as a fan) in that scenario. Sure seems a more comfortable place for Patriot League administrators. Better to do well and enjoy what you ARE, than to struggle and be frustrated with what you're NOT.

But are we really asking for that large of a shift?

I'm not complaining about why Colgate doesn't have the same national prominence as it did in the 1930s or 1970s. I'm looking for a return to the halcyon days of the late 1990s and early 2000s, when PL teams were legitimate at-large contenders and were threats to make the quarterfinals (if not deeper).

Has the college football landscape shifted so significantly that such a scenario is suddenly off the table?

[RichH2]

But are we really asking for that large of a shift?

I'm not complaining about why Colgate doesn't have the same national prominence as it did in the 1930s or 1970s. I'm looking for a return to the halcyon days of the late 1990s and early 2000s, when PL teams were legitimate at-large contenders and were threats to make the quarterfinals (if not deeper).

Has the college football landscape shifted so significantly that such a scenario is suddenly off the table?

No it hasnt. The landscape has changed a lot since the late 90s but it has remained relatively stable over the last 5 years. What I see is a number of fans frustrated and disillusioned with PL football over the last 4 years. They want to give up and withdraw into the more comfortable Ivy bubble. Why? Well schollies have yet to make PL competitive so why continue. We were better before we had them. Disappointed expectations to me. Schollies are not a magic wand. To be effective the have to be utilized correctly. Hindsight, it is obvious that PL did not do that for the first 2-3 years of the era. Coaches have , over the last 2 years, finally adjusted to recruiting better players. A start. IMO the mere fact that the transition is taking longer than we wanted, does not justify giving up. I have always felt that the Ivy position in football to be hypocritical. I see no reason for us to join them in that bubble. The quest for excellence in any field is difficult, that is not a reason to accept mediocrity as a substitute goal.

[PAllen]

No it hasnt. The landscape has changed a lot since the late 90s but it has remained relatively stable over the last 5 years. What I see is a number of fans frustrated and disillusioned with PL football over the last 4 years. They want to give up and withdraw into the more comfortable Ivy bubble. Why? Well schollies have yet to make PL competitive so why continue. We were better before we had them. Disappointed expectations to me. Schollies are not a magic wand. To be effective the have to be utilized correctly. Hindsight, it is obvious that PL did not do that for the first 2-3 years of the era. Coaches have , over the last 2 years, finally adjusted to recruiting better players. A start. IMO the mere fact that the transition is taking longer than we wanted, does not justify giving up. I have always felt that the Ivy position in football to be hypocritical. I see no reason for us to join them in that bubble. The quest for excellence in any field is difficult, that is not a reason to accept mediocrity as a substitute goal.

But Rich, it's more than just the Ivies. The MEAC and the SWAC have taken their ball and gone to play in front of larger audiences as well. While I'd prefer a playoff with participation from every conference, the shift that has happened in FCS over the last 10 years is to push it more towards an exclusive club of weather vein midwestern state's. We're close to a point where an IL/PL bowl would make the FCS post season a 50/50 split between the playoffs and bowl games. I can easily see a day in the near future with an eastern non-scholly conference again. Take the pioneer league teams out of the playoffs which many have pushed for, and have them play a bowl against that non-scholly conference and what's actually left of the playoffs?

[RichH2]

But Rich, it's more than just the Ivies. The MEAC and the SWAC have taken their ball and gone to play in front of larger audiences as well. While I'd prefer a playoff with participation from every conference, the shift that has happened in FCS over the last 10 years is to push it more towards an exclusive club of weather vein midwestern state's. We're close to a point where an IL/PL bowl would make the FCS post season a 50/50 split between the playoffs and bowl games. I can easily see a day in the near future with an eastern non-scholly conference again. Take the pioneer league teams out of the playoffs which many have pushed for, and have them play a bowl against that non-scholly conference and what's actually left of the playoffs?

Possibly. Cant say I'm opposed to a bowl with the Ivies. Do enjoy Ivy rivalries. That said, I dont think withdrawing from the playoffs is the answer to the current angst. We left our Ivy Lite status behind because the niche was too confining. Now because its tough out here we should slide back into that slot. No. In any event, H and Y have kept Ivies out of playoffs to protect their little game. Do you really think they will allow a PL-IL bowl game ?
The current dominance of MVFC and NDSU has exacerbated the haves and have nots split in FCS to an extreme. Now we have CAA and MVFC sitting alone at the top. Truly an achievement both should be proud of but it does endanger the feasibility of FCS. It may well be that a conference like the PL could not, even with less self imposed restrictions, ever compete. We are not yet at that point. Just as we say to the Hoyas, it is up to us to remedy our competitive issues first . if we wont then we may have no choice but to cede national relevance for a much more limited horizon.

[CFBfan]

What's a Colgate University? like the Toothpaste?

you're thinking that because they PASTED you in the playoffs on your home field just a few short years ago

[PAllen]

Possibly. Cant say I'm opposed to a bowl with the Ivies. Do enjoy Ivy rivalries. That said, I dont think withdrawing from the playoffs is the answer to the current angst. We left our Ivy Lite status behind because the niche was too confining. Now because its tough out here we should slide back into that slot. No. In any event, H and Y have kept Ivies out of playoffs to protect their little game. Do you really think they will allow a PL-IL bowl game ?
The current dominance of MVFC and NDSU has exacerbated the haves and have nots split in FCS to an extreme. Now we have CAA and MVFC sitting alone at the top. Truly an achievement both should be proud of but it does endanger the feasibility of FCS. It may well be that a conference like the PL could not, even with less self imposed restrictions, ever compete. We are not yet at that point. Just as we say to the Hoyas, it is up to us to remedy our competitive issues first . if we wont then we may have no choice but to cede national relevance for a much more limited horizon.

Don't get me wrong. I was playing more devil's advocate than anything else. But I do see a day in the not too distant future if things continue on their current path where the FCS playoffs are relegated to D-II Cross Country Championship status in terms of exposure and interest. Combine that with the equally probable possibility of another FCS level post season bowl popping up and garnering more national exposure for the teams involved than a national championship (which the celebration bowl does now), and you've got a pretty compelling reason for FCS bowl participation over the playoffs. Not saying it's what we should do at this point, in fact far from it. However, I do see a path to a place where I would be very much interested in seeing us shift to a post season bowl setup that would include the most nationally known schools in FCS.

[RichH2]

Don't get me wrong. I was playing more devil's advocate than anything else. But I do see a day in the not too distant future if things continue on their current path where the FCS playoffs are relegated to D-II Cross Country Championship status in terms of exposure and interest. Combine that with the equally probable possibility of another FCS level post season bowl popping up and garnering more national exposure for the teams involved than a national championship (which the celebration bowl does now), and you've got a pretty compelling reason for FCS bowl participation over the playoffs. Not saying it's what we should do at this point, in fact far from it. However, I do see a path to a place where I would be very much interested in seeing us shift to a post season bowl setup that would include the most nationally known schools in FCS.
Agree.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

But are we really asking for that large of a shift?

I'm not complaining about why Colgate doesn't have the same national prominence as it did in the 1930s or 1970s. I'm looking for a return to the halcyon days of the late 1990s and early 2000s, when PL teams were legitimate at-large contenders and were threats to make the quarterfinals (if not deeper).

Has the college football landscape shifted so significantly that such a scenario is suddenly off the table?

No question things have certainly changed since that era of PL/FCS football. First and foremost the PL had a completely clean slate to work from when they finally decided to enter the playoffs in 1997. In only the second year Lehigh beat A10 Champ and #3 Richmond then took eventual champ UMass to the wire. That immediately gave the league credibility. From there the league earned at-large bids, a seed, home playoff games which culminated in Colgate's Finals run. However, starting in 2006 the league slipped and since then it's been mostly up and down with only a couple of blips on the national radar. The league has also set a few dubious marks since then. The biggest one being the only conference to send a league champ to the playoffs with a losing record. And it's happened twice since the introduction of scholarships!

The expanded playoffs have made things a lot tougher to advance in the playoffs if you come from the PL given its current reputation. When you're playing in the opening round 9/10 years the odds of a deep run are not in your favor.

The league must figure out how to host some meaningful playoff games. It will be 14 years this season since the league hosted a school from a power conference (JMU at Lehigh) in the playoffs. That's ridiculous and frankly a league embarrassment! Have some freakin pride in your players, alums/fans, school, facilities! To send your team packing every year is a serious slap in the face imo and an obvious competitive disadvantage.

The bottom line is the PL is not living up to its potential because of its self imposed restrictions. Unless they step up and at least loosen a couple of them they're fighting a losing battle come playoff time imo.

One other interesting tidbit regarding the PL of the late 90's, early 00's is the TSN/Tony Moss effect. TSN was stationed in Philadelphia which allowed Moss (the lead 1-AA writer at the time) to attend big PL games. He and TSN gave the league tons of press.

[Lehigh'98]

No question things have certainly changed since that era of PL/FCS football. First and foremost the PL had a completely clean slate to work from when they finally decided to enter the playoffs in 1997. In only the second year Lehigh beat A10 Champ and #3 Richmond then took eventual champ UMass to the wire. That immediately gave the league credibility. From there the league earned at-large bids, a seed, home playoff games which culminated in Colgate's Finals run. However, starting in 2006 the league slipped and since then it's been mostly up and down with only a couple of blips on the national radar. The league has also set a few dubious marks since then. The biggest one being the only conference to send a league champ to the playoffs with a losing record. And it's happened twice since the introduction of scholarships!

The expanded playoffs have made things a lot tougher to advance in the playoffs if you come from the PL given its current reputation. When you're playing in the opening round 9/10 years the odds of a deep run are not in your favor.

The league must figure out how to host some meaningful playoff games. It will be 14 years this season since the league hosted a school from a power conference (JMU at Lehigh) in the playoffs. That's ridiculous and frankly a league embarrassment! Have some freakin pride in your players, alums/fans, school, facilities! To send your team packing every year is a serious slap in the face imo and an obvious competitive disadvantage.

The bottom line is the PL is not living up to its potential because of its self imposed restrictions. Unless they step up and at least loosen a couple of them they're fighting a losing battle come playoff time imo.

One other interesting tidbit regarding the PL of the late 90's, early 00's is the TSN/Tony Moss effect. TSN was stationed in Philadelphia which allowed Moss (the lead 1-AA writer at the time) to attend big PL games. He and TSN gave the league tons of press.

Great post. It's not just that the PL is doing nothing, but the bigger conferences are doing even more now with FCOA. We are as irrelevant as we have been since mid 90s nationally.

[aceinthehole]

But are we really asking for that large of a shift?

I'm not complaining about why Colgate doesn't have the same national prominence as it did in the 1930s or 1970s. I'm looking for a return to the halcyon days of the late 1990s and early 2000s, when PL teams were legitimate at-large contenders and were threats to make the quarterfinals (if not deeper).

Has the college football landscape shifted so significantly that such a scenario is suddenly off the table?

A very fair expectation for Colgate and PL fans.

I would offer another reason for the "decline" of the PL - it is the existence and rise of the NEC in the same footprint.

The NEC doesn't even begin to sponsor football until 1996. Prior to that, in 1992, all the current NEC football teams played in D-II/D-III, or didn't even exist.

1992:
Duquesne (D-III)
Central Conn. (D-II)
Sacred Heart (D-III)
Saint Francis (D-III)
Wagner (D-III)

Plus, 2NEC teams didn't exist in 1993: Robert Morris, 1994 (I-AA) and Bryant, 1999 (D-II) and Monmouth started their program in 1994 (I-AA).

The MAAC started sponsoring non-scholly football in 1993, and the league was dominated by current NEC program Duquesne. The Dukes won 11 MAAC Football Championships, including the last 9 straight where they lost just 3 conference games in their last 9 seasons.

The NEC began sponsoring football 3 years after the MAAC and within just a few seasons (and grants-in-aid) the league had far surpassed the MAAC. By 2005, the NEC had collected its first win over a PL team (CCSU beat PL Champ Colgate). Now wins by NEC vs. PL teams are much more common.

The NEC was also an incubator for 3 full-scholarship programs (Stony Brook, Albany, and Monmouth) and is now allows members to offer 63 equivalences (45 Schollys + 18 Grants-in-aid)

Obviously, the NEC cannot compare to the academics or football history of the PL, but in just 20 years the league has transformed I-AA football landscape in the Northeast.

[RichH2]

A very fair expectation for Colgate and PL fans.

I would offer another reason for the "decline" of the PL - it is the existence and rise of the NEC in the same footprint.

The NEC doesn't even begin to sponsor football until 1996. Prior to that, in 1992, all the current NEC football teams played in D-II/D-III, or didn't even exist.

1992:
Duquesne (D-III)
Central Conn. (D-II)
Sacred Heart (D-III)
Saint Francis (D-III)
Wagner (D-III)

Plus, 2NEC teams didn't exist in 1993: Robert Morris, 1994 (I-AA) and Bryant, 1999 (D-II) and Monmouth started their program in 1994 (I-AA).

The MAAC started sponsoring non-scholly football in 1993, and the league was dominated by current NEC program Duquesne. The Dukes won 11 MAAC Football Championships, including the last 9 straight where they lost just 3 conference games in their last 9 seasons.

The NEC began sponsoring football 3 years after the MAAC and within just a few seasons (and grants-in-aid) the league had far surpassed the MAAC. By 2005, the NEC had collected its first win over a PL team (CCSU beat PL Champ Colgate). Now wins by NEC vs. PL teams are much more common.

The NEC was also an incubator for 3 full-scholarship programs (Stony Brook, Albany, and Monmouth) and is now allows members to offer 63 equivalences (45 Schollys + 18 Grants-in-aid)

Obviously, the NEC cannot compare to the academics or football history of the PL, but in just 20 years the league has transformed I-AA football landscape in the Northeast.
You got it ace. Some in recalling the good old days :) when we were relevant forget that we had much less competition for players. No less an impact was the Ivies amping up their aid and recruiting.
So in the 90s and early 2000s PL had a prime niche with little competition. Now , we face an expanded CAA the NEC and the Ivies. The reason why schollies were necessary just to survive. Our niche no longer existed . The landscape did not shift in our favor. Our problems now are the length of time it took us to acclimate to schollie recruiting and our self imposed restrictions.

[RichH2]

A very fair expectation for Colgate and PL fans.

I would offer another reason for the "decline" of the PL - it is the existence and rise of the NEC in the same footprint.

The NEC doesn't even begin to sponsor football until 1996. Prior to that, in 1992, all the current NEC football teams played in D-II/D-III, or didn't even exist.

1992:
Duquesne (D-III)
Central Conn. (D-II)
Sacred Heart (D-III)
Saint Francis (D-III)
Wagner (D-III)

Plus, 2NEC teams didn't exist in 1993: Robert Morris, 1994 (I-AA) and Bryant, 1999 (D-II) and Monmouth started their program in 1994 (I-AA).

The MAAC started sponsoring non-scholly football in 1993, and the league was dominated by current NEC program Duquesne. The Dukes won 11 MAAC Football Championships, including the last 9 straight where they lost just 3 conference games in their last 9 seasons.

The NEC began sponsoring football 3 years after the MAAC and within just a few seasons (and grants-in-aid) the league had far surpassed the MAAC. By 2005, the NEC had collected its first win over a PL team (CCSU beat PL Champ Colgate). Now wins by NEC vs. PL teams are much more common.

The NEC was also an incubator for 3 full-scholarship programs (Stony Brook, Albany, and Monmouth) and is now allows members to offer 63 equivalences (45 Schollys + 18 Grants-in-aid)

Obviously, the NEC cannot compare to the academics or football history of the PL, but in just 20 years the league has transformed I-AA football landscape in the Northeast.
You got it ace. Some in recalling the good old days :) when we were relevant forget that we had much less competition for players. No less an impact was the Ivies amping up their aid and recruiting.
So in the 90s and early 2000s PL had a prime niche with little competition. Now , we face an expanded CAA the NEC and the Ivies. The reason why schollies were necessary just to survive. Our niche no longer existed . The landscape did not shift in our favor. Our problems now are the length of time it took us to acclimate to schollie recruiting and our self imposed restrictions.

[TheValleyRaider]

Certain things have definitely changed, like the NEC as Ace said. Much of our current state feels less like decline then standing still while other improve. In this view, I think, a similar age of competitiveness is plausible.

The idea that we would give that possible standard up, which to me is a good standard to aspire to, in favor of self-segregation with the Ivies is silly. Even the HBCU comparison doesn't really work, as I highly doubt a PL-IL bowl would draw what the Celebration Bowl does, or make the kind of cash.

Being a good program in FCS does not mean defining ourselves against the NDSUs and JMUs of the world. We aren't those programs, and aren't going to be, but we can absolutely build teams that can compete on in a one-game setting. Some stars need to align, but don't they always?

[Sader87]

The FCS playoffs are the most "ado about nothing" in major college sports.

I'd take a bowl game of some sort in lieu of the playoffs all day. This is not saying we should "drop a level"...we should continue to have as strong of a program as possible and continue to schedule 1 or 2 FBS opponents every year.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Certain things have definitely changed, like the NEC as Ace said. Much of our current state feels less like decline then standing still while other improve. In this view, I think, a similar age of competitiveness is plausible.

The idea that we would give that possible standard up, which to me is a good standard to aspire to, in favor of self-segregation with the Ivies is silly. Even the HBCU comparison doesn't really work, as I highly doubt a PL-IL bowl would draw what the Celebration Bowl does, or make the kind of cash.

This x 1000. HBCU's have been competing for their own mythical national championship for almost 100 years. Plus, don't forget the only reason the Celebration Bowl exists is that ESPN is bankrolling it - when it's said the the Celebration Bowl "makes money", it's because ESPN is writing a check, plain and simple.

[ngineer]

No it hasnt. The landscape has changed a lot since the late 90s but it has remained relatively stable over the last 5 years. What I see is a number of fans frustrated and disillusioned with PL football over the last 4 years. They want to give up and withdraw into the more comfortable Ivy bubble. Why? Well schollies have yet to make PL competitive so why continue. We were better before we had them. Disappointed expectations to me. Schollies are not a magic wand. To be effective the have to be utilized correctly. Hindsight, it is obvious that PL did not do that for the first 2-3 years of the era. Coaches have , over the last 2 years, finally adjusted to recruiting better players. A start. IMO the mere fact that the transition is taking longer than we wanted, does not justify giving up. I have always felt that the Ivy position in football to be hypocritical. I see no reason for us to join them in that bubble. The quest for excellence in any field is difficult, that is not a reason to accept mediocrity as a substitute goal.

Don't disagree with you Rich. My point was that, that is where I see us headed if matters don't begin to turnaround. I think another five years of this mediocrity will result in a study of our 'relevance' in the larger football landscape.

[DFW HOYA]

The fault, PL fans, is not in our stars.

Blaming the NEC (where many of its athletes aren't getting into the PL anyway), or an "expanded CAA" (Expanded? Does anyone remember Hofstra and Northeastern?) is nonsensical.

It's not enough to spend to win. You have to commit to win, and the PL has not done this. More to follow this week.

[ngineer]

Great post. It's not just that the PL is doing nothing, but the bigger conferences are doing even more now with FCOA. We are as irrelevant as we have been since mid 90s nationally.

Quite true. The PL schools have made significant changes to upgrade our football; but the other bigger school conferences have been doing more and I don't see us winning an 'arms race' with these large state universities for whom having a nationally ranked football team is much more important to them than it is to the PL presidents.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

When the the MEAC and SWAC decided to make the Celebration Bowl their championship, they were doing so with a brand of college football that had proven itself through paid attendance at home games, fierce loyalty on and offline, and well-placed advocates in pro football, college football, and the owner and operator of most collegiate bowls, ESPN. Why would ESPN choose to televise and promote a PL/IL bowl? Certainly not to attract the 2,196 souls that went to the Yale Bowl that saw Lehigh play Yale in 2016.

[RichH2]

The fault, PL fans, is not in our stars.

Blaming the NEC (where many of its athletes aren't getting into the PL anyway), or an "expanded CAA" (Expanded? Does anyone remember Hofstra and Northeastern?) is nonsensical.

It's not enough to spend to win. You have to commit to win, and the PL has not done this. More to follow this week.
Not blaming anyone. Just the reality of tpday. And yes we do lose prospects to the NEC. They can out bid us. This landscape explains our need for schollies. Agree spending doe not equate with winning. Talent plus effective coaching is essential. Good coaches like Biddle Higgins Moorhead found talent and coached them to success. Not sure we any of those right now in PL.

[Sader87]

The FCS is 1-AA for a reason....the meatheads who follow/support programs like North Dakota St or James Madison have the mindset that they are I-A...nothing wrong with that obviously, but they should go FBS if they are giving FCOA or red-shirting every freshmen on their rostah.

Schools are FCS for a reason....I think a lot of schools have lost sight of this.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The fault, PL fans, is not in our stars.

Blaming the NEC (where many of its athletes aren't getting into the PL anyway), or an "expanded CAA" (Expanded? Does anyone remember Hofstra and Northeastern?) is nonsensical.

It's not enough to spend to win. You have to commit to win, and the PL has not done this. More to follow this week.

I completely agree! The PL problems are self created. The NEC has nothing to do with Lehigh underpaying assistants, accepting terrible defense, not bidding enough on home playoff games, not adding lights etc. I can go on and on for each program....

[RichH2]

I completely agree! The PL problems are self created. The NEC has nothing to do with Lehigh underpaying assistants, accepting terrible defense, not bidding enough on home playoff games, not adding lights etc. I can go on and on for each program....
Agree NEC has nothing to do with our self imposed issues. Not my point. The creation of NEC added another schollie league competing for players. That with expansion of CAA and full ride Ivies effectively eliminated PL niche requiring the move to schollies to survive. Truly NEC is not the cause for how we've screwed it up.

[DFW HOYA]

Meanwhile, Georgetown's recruiting efforts continue. The Hoyas were in the run for its first three star defensive talent in quite a while, but he signed with Arkansas.

https://247sports.com/college/arkansas/Bolt/Arkansas-Razorbacks-land-commitment-from-Louisiana-linebacker-Andrew-Parker-114007717

Georgetown is at seven signees with 27 seniors to be replaced in 2018.

[Neighbor2]

Meanwhile, Georgetown's recruiting efforts continue. The Hoyas were in the run for its first three star defensive talent in quite a while, but he signed with Arkansas.

https://247sports.com/college/arkansas/Bolt/Arkansas-Razorbacks-land-commitment-from-Louisiana-linebacker-Andrew-Parker-114007717

Georgetown is at seven signees with 27 seniors to be replaced in 2018.

By now, it's pretty obvious to most the Patriot League is content to watch its football effort 'die on the vine.' I'm saddened by that, but it's out of my control. I get the program enthusiasm I desire following other teams now.

Let's not kid ourselves, high school prospects see this decline, too! They also have other options. This situation results in a more difficult recruiting challenge, not to mention a smaller, less than thrilled fan base. But again, we make our own bed each morning.

[Go...gate]

A very fair expectation for Colgate and PL fans.

I would offer another reason for the "decline" of the PL - it is the existence and rise of the NEC in the same footprint.

The NEC doesn't even begin to sponsor football until 1996. Prior to that, in 1992, all the current NEC football teams played in D-II/D-III, or didn't even exist.

1992:
Duquesne (D-III)
Central Conn. (D-II)
Sacred Heart (D-III)
Saint Francis (D-III)
Wagner (D-III)

Plus, 2NEC teams didn't exist in 1993: Robert Morris, 1994 (I-AA) and Bryant, 1999 (D-II) and Monmouth started their program in 1994 (I-AA).

The MAAC started sponsoring non-scholly football in 1993, and the league was dominated by current NEC program Duquesne. The Dukes won 11 MAAC Football Championships, including the last 9 straight where they lost just 3 conference games in their last 9 seasons.

The NEC began sponsoring football 3 years after the MAAC and within just a few seasons (and grants-in-aid) the league had far surpassed the MAAC. By 2005, the NEC had collected its first win over a PL team (CCSU beat PL Champ Colgate). Now wins by NEC vs. PL teams are much more common.

The NEC was also an incubator for 3 full-scholarship programs (Stony Brook, Albany, and Monmouth) and is now allows members to offer 63 equivalences (45 Schollys + 18 Grants-in-aid)

Obviously, the NEC cannot compare to the academics or football history of the PL, but in just 20 years the league has transformed I-AA football landscape in the Northeast.

Very good post.

[Go...gate]

No question things have certainly changed since that era of PL/FCS football. First and foremost the PL had a completely clean slate to work from when they finally decided to enter the playoffs in 1997. In only the second year Lehigh beat A10 Champ and #3 Richmond then took eventual champ UMass to the wire. That immediately gave the league credibility. From there the league earned at-large bids, a seed, home playoff games which culminated in Colgate's Finals run. However, starting in 2006 the league slipped and since then it's been mostly up and down with only a couple of blips on the national radar. The league has also set a few dubious marks since then. The biggest one being the only conference to send a league champ to the playoffs with a losing record. And it's happened twice since the introduction of scholarships!

The expanded playoffs have made things a lot tougher to advance in the playoffs if you come from the PL given its current reputation. When you're playing in the opening round 9/10 years the odds of a deep run are not in your favor.

The league must figure out how to host some meaningful playoff games. It will be 14 years this season since the league hosted a school from a power conference (JMU at Lehigh) in the playoffs. That's ridiculous and frankly a league embarrassment! Have some freakin pride in your players, alums/fans, school, facilities! To send your team packing every year is a serious slap in the face imo and an obvious competitive disadvantage.

The bottom line is the PL is not living up to its potential because of its self imposed restrictions. Unless they step up and at least loosen a couple of them they're fighting a losing battle come playoff time imo.

One other interesting tidbit regarding the PL of the late 90's, early 00's is the TSN/Tony Moss effect. TSN was stationed in Philadelphia which allowed Moss (the lead 1-AA writer at the time) to attend big PL games. He and TSN gave the league tons of press.

Another great post.

[Go...gate]

Been having a bit of an issue with that infernal flu and finally on the mend. Have missed being on here. This is a great discussion.

[RichH2]

Been having a bit of an issue with that infernal flu and finally on the mend. Have missed being on here. This is a great discussion.

Glad you're feeling better. Us old farts gotta keep going :)

[DFW HOYA]

Are Patriot League schools committed to competing for a championship? Could every PL coach say (and deliver) on quotes like this?

"There's a direct correlation to our success and a commitment from the university to athletics. That's not sugarcoating it, that's the truth. We haven't sacrificed what we stand for academically, if anything we've enhanced it. We haven't sacrificed our character, in fact I think we've enhanced it... I think the university sees that they're getting a commitment back from the athletic department... that we're going to embrace what the university stands for even though we're working our butt off to compete for championships consistently."
-- Pat Fitzgerald, Northwestern University

[RichH2]

Are Patriot League schools committed to competing for a championship? Could every PL coach say (and deliver) on quotes like this?

"There's a direct correlation to our success and a commitment from the university to athletics. That's not sugarcoating it, that's the truth. We haven't sacrificed what we stand for academically, if anything we've enhanced it. We haven't sacrificed our character, in fact I think we've enhanced it... I think the university sees that they're getting a commitment back from the athletic department... that we're going to embrace what the university stands for even though we're working our butt off to compete for championships consistently."
-- Pat Fitzgerald, Northwestern University
I know some who will say it . I hope the ret are thinking that way. Should include the ADs.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Are Patriot League schools committed to competing for a championship? Could every PL coach say (and deliver) on quotes like this?

"There's a direct correlation to our success and a commitment from the university to athletics. That's not sugarcoating it, that's the truth. We haven't sacrificed what we stand for academically, if anything we've enhanced it. We haven't sacrificed our character, in fact I think we've enhanced it... I think the university sees that they're getting a commitment back from the athletic department... that we're going to embrace what the university stands for even though we're working our butt off to compete for championships consistently."
-- Pat Fitzgerald, Northwestern University

Pat Fitzgerald is an LFN fave from his playing days at Northwestern, and at Lehigh I've always felt this is their mantra as well. When Lehigh was beating Towson at their place, it felt like we were closer to that goal than this year, however.

[RichH2]

Interesting survey by 247 ranking 2018 recruiting. Princeton at 100 us the #1 FCS team.NDSU is 124 and JMU 164. Harvard Yale Penn and Columbia are all in the top 10. Fordham top PL team at 152 followed by Lehigh at 175.

[Derby City Duke]

The FCS is 1-AA for a reason....the meatheads who follow/support programs like North Dakota St or James Madison have the mindset that they are I-A...nothing wrong with that obviously, but they should go FBS if they are giving FCOA or red-shirting every freshmen on their rostah.

Schools are FCS for a reason....I think a lot of schools have lost sight of this.

To the best of my knowledge, JMU only provides FCOA for men's and women's basketball.

[Derby City Duke]

The FCS is 1-AA for a reason....the meatheads who follow/support programs like North Dakota St or James Madison have the mindset that they are I-A...nothing wrong with that obviously, but they should go FBS if they are giving FCOA or red-shirting every freshmen on their rostah.

Schools are FCS for a reason....I think a lot of schools have lost sight of this.

Oh, and "my name is Michael, Archie, NOT Meathead" -- I am not Michael Stivik (thank you Norman Lear).

[DFW HOYA]

Interesting survey by 247 ranking 2018 recruiting. Princeton at 101 us the #1 FCS team.NDSU is 124 and JMU 164. Harvard Yale Penn and Columbia are all in the top 10. Fordham top PL team at 152 followed by Lehigh at 175.

Other PL schools (out of 244):

Lafayette 186
Colgate 197
Holy Cross: Not ranked
Bucknell: Not ranked
Georgetown: Not ranked

[RichH2]

Other PL schools (out of 244):

Lafayette 186
Colgate 197
Holy Cross: Not ranked
Bucknell: Not ranked
Georgetown: Not ranked

Guess we should refer to Navy 92 and Army 93. :)

[bonarae]

Meanwhile...

I will discuss this question with you guys but I originally posted this question in the Ivy/PFL offseason thread.

Can the PL adjust to this reality present with the Ivies regarding the latter's scheduling? Will we see more money (FBS) and more unusual (read: NDSU, Montana) games with PL teams in the future?

At present, the Ivies tend to schedule 2 PFL teams and 1 PL team since the late 2000s or early 2010s. But will the Ivy-PL trend end for the PL at large?

Can Georgetown save its face by following their scholarship conference-mates' lead by playing money games, though the FBS team may have to go through a lot of processes? Or will they resort to playing D-IIs or NAIAs in the end, just like some HBCUs and SLC schools?

[RichH2]

Meanwhile...

I will discuss this question with you guys but I originally posted this question in the Ivy/PFL offseason thread.

Can the PL adjust to this reality present with the Ivies regarding the latter's scheduling? Will we see more money (FBS) and more unusual (read: NDSU, Montana) games with PL teams in the future?

At present, the Ivies tend to schedule 2 PFL teams and 1 PL team since the late 2000s or early 2010s. But will the Ivy-PL trend end for the PL at large?

Can Georgetown save its face by following their scholarship conference-mates' lead by playing money games, though the FBS team may have to go through a lot of processes? Or will they resort to playing D-IIs or NAIAs in the end, just like some HBCUs and SLC schools?
PL actually has no choice but to adjust to IL scheduling. Personally I like Ivy games and was concerned that the rivalries would be no more. Hasnt really happened. Penn and Princeton as well as Columbia are still scheduling Lehigh. The only real consequence of PL going schollie was that Ivies amped up their recruiting , particularly H Y P and Penn Columbia. Murphy's prediction of PL dominance was a bit off. :)

[Go...gate]

Meanwhile...

I will discuss this question with you guys but I originally posted this question in the Ivy/PFL offseason thread.

Can the PL adjust to this reality present with the Ivies regarding the latter's scheduling? Will we see more money (FBS) and more unusual (read: NDSU, Montana) games with PL teams in the future?

At present, the Ivies tend to schedule 2 PFL teams and 1 PL team since the late 2000s or early 2010s. But will the Ivy-PL trend end for the PL at large?

Can Georgetown save its face by following their scholarship conference-mates' lead by playing money games, though the FBS team may have to go through a lot of processes? Or will they resort to playing D-IIs or NAIAs in the end, just like some HBCUs and SLC schools?

Agree that the Ivies have elected to move in a different direction and there are and will be fewer games between the conferences. Colgate's OOC games against Ivy schools have dropped off quite a bit.

[bonarae]

Agree that the Ivies have elected to move in a different direction and there are and will be fewer games between the conferences. Colgate's OOC games against Ivy schools have dropped off quite a bit.

But do you think there will be an East-meets-West FCS OOC game e.g. any PL against Idaho or EWU?

[RichH2]

But do you think there will be an East-meets-West FCS OOC game e.g. any PL against Idaho or EWU?

Not for Lehigh. Coen has repeatedly said there would be no upside to going a 1000 miles for a 1 off game. We dont recruit out there. He is happy with CAA and Ivy OOC with a very occasional local FBS.

[TheValleyRaider]

Meanwhile...

I will discuss this question with you guys but I originally posted this question in the Ivy/PFL offseason thread.

Can the PL adjust to this reality present with the Ivies regarding the latter's scheduling? Will we see more money (FBS) and more unusual (read: NDSU, Montana) games with PL teams in the future?

At present, the Ivies tend to schedule 2 PFL teams and 1 PL team since the late 2000s or early 2010s. But will the Ivy-PL trend end for the PL at large?

Can Georgetown save its face by following their scholarship conference-mates' lead by playing money games, though the FBS team may have to go through a lot of processes? Or will they resort to playing D-IIs or NAIAs in the end, just like some HBCUs and SLC schools?

Games against the Ivies have diminished overall, but not altogether. Lehigh and Lafayette still seem to have the usual handful. Colgate's have gone down. I would not mind more games against Ivy programs, but Cornell is the only one I feel like we "need" to keep on the schedule.

We do all reside in a fairly dense area for FCS opponents, with NEC, CAA, Ivy, and some Big South/PFL/SoCon teams all within a manageable drive. And that's without adding FBS opponents, which some of us are picking up as well. I think there are enough relatively local options where losing the number of Ivies we used to have on the schedule doesn't mean we can't suddenly fill 11 games. The benefit of playing the Ivies is the history of the matchups, but as those games go away, that aspect will become less important.

If the Ivies are reducing their PL opponents, that's their isolation problem. We have other options.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

But do you think there will be an East-meets-West FCS OOC game e.g. any PL against Idaho or EWU?

Fordham hosted EWU and Colgate ventured to Cal Poly this past season....

[Sader87]

Would love to see HC play a Montana, Cal-Poly, San Diego etc some year but I doubt it happens. HC has the luxury of "quick (or relatively short)" bus games to Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth and Brown in the Ancient VIII and other scheduled NE FCS games with UNH, CCSU etc....there really is no pressing need to play out of the Northeast OOC games at the FCS-level currently.

A game against Montana or NDSU, though interesting, really doesn't make much sense for a program like Holy Cross.

[DFW HOYA]

Can Georgetown save its face by following their scholarship conference-mates' lead by playing money games, though the FBS team may have to go through a lot of processes? Or will they resort to playing D-IIs or NAIAs in the end, just like some HBCUs and SLC schools?

Money games? It's not like Georgetown is getting any calls.

Georgetown hasn't played below I-AA since 1995, and there are no NAIA schools in the Northeast. If the Ivies lose patience with scheduling GU, and some already have, I could see GU someday moving to more NEC opponents or even a 10-game schedule. Bottom line, schools don't want to play at Cooper Field if they don't have to.

And in other news, capacity for Cooper Field has been reduced to 1,000 next season.

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/football.htm

[PAllen]

Money games? It's not like Georgetown is getting any calls.

Georgetown hasn't played below I-AA since 1995, and there are no NAIA schools in the Northeast. If the Ivies lose patience with scheduling GU, and some already have, I could see GU someday moving to more NEC opponents or even a 10-game schedule. Bottom line, schools don't want to play at Cooper Field if they don't have to.

And in other news, capacity for Cooper Field has been reduced to 1,000 next season.

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/football.htm


Didn't they just redo the west stands? They were certainly better than the East side ones that they left. You know, the ones they have to pull out the portable drill/drivers to screw back together during the game.

[Go...gate]

Money games? It's not like Georgetown is getting any calls.

Georgetown hasn't played below I-AA since 1995, and there are no NAIA schools in the Northeast. If the Ivies lose patience with scheduling GU, and some already have, I could see GU someday moving to more NEC opponents or even a 10-game schedule. Bottom line, schools don't want to play at Cooper Field if they don't have to.

And in other news, capacity for Cooper Field has been reduced to 1,000 next season.

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/football.htm

The seats were razed "for future development". What might that be?

[PAllen]

The seats were razed "for future development". What might that be?

I'm going with a patch of gravel later to be developed into a parking lot.

[The Boogie Down]

I'm going with a patch of gravel later to be developed into a parking lot.

Sounds right to me. Any chance DFW Hoya has a different answer?

[The Boogie Down]

When the the MEAC and SWAC decided to make the Celebration Bowl their championship, they were doing so with a brand of college football that had proven itself through paid attendance at home games, fierce loyalty on and offline, and well-placed advocates in pro football, college football, and the owner and operator of most collegiate bowls, ESPN. Why would ESPN choose to televise and promote a PL/IL bowl? Certainly not to attract the 2,196 souls that went to the Yale Bowl that saw Lehigh play Yale in 2016.

Due to the Ancient XIII's unmatchable football tradition, and some pretty good tradition coming from a few of the Patsies, I'd think ESPN would love televising/promoting this type of matchup. Especially from an exotic location like Bermuda or the Bahamas. Maybe even the Canary Islands, Madeira or the Azores for something on the other side of the Atlantic that hasn't been done before.

Tradition aside, it would also be promoted as a battle between leagues that do things the "right" way. Obviously, between Penn State, Baylor, Louisville, Michigan State and the countless others who'll be exposed down the road, that angle would be pretty damn refreshing to casual college fans. Even today, and before any promotions, I'd guess those casual viewers skipping through the channels are more likely to have heard of whomever the Ivy champ is than whomever the Sun Belt champ is. I'd bet that even a few Patsies have better name recognition than the Sun Belt.

That's not to say this type of bowl (maybe call it the Raccoon Coat & Skimmer Bowl, or the Eastern Elite Bowl, or the Egghead Bowl) could ever be as big as the Celebration Bowl. Still, it could easily rate higher than many of those low-level G-5 bowls. In theory, a show featuring Any Given Saturday threads being read aloud could conceivably draw bigger ratings than whatever bowl Georgia State finds itself in.

[RichH2]

Odds are it would be fun Boogie. May ultimately be a better season ender than FCS playoffs. But, for now, I believe striving for overall excellence is a better course for the PL. If, as some fear, we cannot compete successfully and Presidents wont allow necessary modifications to by laws, it may be our only best option.

[RichH2]

Probably less optimistic about any modifications in the near futire. I missed a change to roster cap by PL back in August. PL repealed exception for up to 3 true WOs to be added to the 90 , whose need aid, if any, would not count against the schollie cap. While not a major impact rule, it was a step in the right direction.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Bucknell released its 2018 schedule. Notice: No Marist. The only surprise here is that Sacred Heart returns to Lewisburg for a second consecutive appearance.

Sept. 1: William & Mary
Sept. 8: Sacred Heart
Sept. 15: at Penn
Sept. 22: at Villanova
Sept. 29: at Holy Cross*
Oct. 6: Colgate*
Oct. 13: at Monmouth
Oct. 20: Lafayette* (Homecoming)
Nov. 3: at Lehigh*
Nov. 10: at Georgetown*
Nov. 17: Fordham*

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Bucknell released its 2018 schedule. Notice: No Marist. The only surprise here is that Sacred Heart returns to Lewisburg for a second consecutive appearance.

Sept. 1: William & Mary
Sept. 8: Sacred Heart
Sept. 15: at Penn
Sept. 22: at Villanova
Sept. 29: at Holy Cross*
Oct. 6: Colgate*
Oct. 13: at Monmouth
Oct. 20: Lafayette* (Homecoming)
Nov. 3: at Lehigh*
Nov. 10: at Georgetown*
Nov. 17: Fordham*



Bucknell better step up their game or it's going to be a long year in Lewisburg!

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Bucknell better step up their game or it's going to be a long year in Lewisburg!

OK. What is it? We won three of our non-con games last year. Y'all didn't. Cupcake scheduling, you say. Now we schedule up, and you trash a worthy upgrade.

These are the right problems to have. We replace Marist and Cornell, two wins last year, with Villanova and Penn. Yep, this is more challenging but that seems more in line with where we are collectively going.

[RichH2]

OK. What is it? We won three of our non-con games last year. Y'all didn't. Cupcake scheduling, you say. Now we schedule up, and you trash a worthy upgrade.

These are the right problems to have. We replace Marist and Cornell, two wins last year, with Villanova and Penn. Yep, this is more challenging but that seems more in line with where we are collectively going.
Dont think owl is talking about cupcakes. Bison have upgraded their schedule for 18. The point is you have to upgrade the team to play that schedule. Up your game. Of course the same is true for most of us. We have to up our game vs our OOCs. :)

[Go...gate]

Bucknell released its 2018 schedule. Notice: No Marist. The only surprise here is that Sacred Heart returns to Lewisburg for a second consecutive appearance.

Sept. 1: William & Mary
Sept. 8: Sacred Heart
Sept. 15: at Penn
Sept. 22: at Villanova
Sept. 29: at Holy Cross*
Oct. 6: Colgate*
Oct. 13: at Monmouth
Oct. 20: Lafayette* (Homecoming)
Nov. 3: at Lehigh*
Nov. 10: at Georgetown*
Nov. 17: Fordham*



Looks good!

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Dont think owl is talking about cupcakes. Bison have upgraded their schedule for 18. The point is you have to upgrade the team to play that schedule. Up your game. Of course the same is true for most of us. We have to up our game vs our OOCs. :)

Exactly! Bucknell was an even worse 5-6 team than Lehigh was last year. I went to the Lehigh-Bucknell game and the Bison were certainly cringe worthy bad by the end of the year. Unless some miracle happens they're looking at an extremely rough 2018 season. An upgraded schedule but a below average team won't reflect well on the Bison or the league....

[PAllen]

OK. What is it? We won three of our non-con games last year. Y'all didn't. Cupcake scheduling, you say. Now we schedule up, and you trash a worthy upgrade.

These are the right problems to have. We replace Marist and Cornell, two wins last year, with Villanova and Penn. Yep, this is more challenging but that seems more in line with where we are collectively going.

I like your '18 schedule. I think it's right where you need to be right now. Bring up the team to compete at that level, then push the schedule farther and repeat. That's what the entire league should be doing.

[PAllen]

Exactly! Bucknell was an even worse 5-6 team than Lehigh was last year. I went to the Lehigh-Bucknell game and the Bison were certainly cringe worthy bad by the end of the year. Unless some miracle happens they're looking at an extremely rough 2018 season. An upgraded schedule but a below average team won't reflect well on the Bison or the league....


The entire league (Colgate the possible exception) was cringe worthy at the end of the season last year.

[RichH2]

The entire league (Colgate the possible exception) was cringe worthy at the end of the season last year.
Sadly an understatement. "WTF is this crap?" a bit more accurate. :)

[2ram]

Sadly an understatement. "WTF is this crap?" a bit more accurate. :)

the first week was promising and went straight down from there. a truly deplorable season.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

the first week was promising and went straight down from there. a truly deplorable season.

And what are the legitimate reasons to believe the PL will be better in 2018?

[RichH2]

And what are the legitimate reasons to believe the PL will be better in 2018?
Well, it's the off season. Fans are allowed rose colored glasses. Reality can wait until Sept. :). Of course, we are all bringing in the very best recruits for next year.:)

[UNHWildcat18]

And what are the legitimate reasons to believe the PL will be better in 2018?

Holy........Cross.......amaright?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Holy........Cross.......amaright?

They'll be lucky to win 4 games this year. Based on their athletic department as a whole the odds the Crusaders become relevant in football is rather slim. Especially with their up coming schedules.

[UNHWildcat18]

They'll be lucky to win 4 games this year. Based on their athletic department as a whole the odds the Crusaders become relevant in football is rather slim. Especially with their up coming schedules.

We shall see Renly. Come the dawn, we shall see.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

I have no rose-colored glasses about the status of the entire Bucknell program. The schedule complaint seems to be handled for a few years, as the Bison play at Temple in 2019 and at Army in 2020, and as the Nova and Penn series play out. I think of this as necessary but nowhere near sufficient.

[RichH2]

I have no rose-colored glasses about the status of the entire Bucknell program. The schedule complaint seems to be handled for a few years, as the Bison play at Temple in 2019 and at Army in 2020, and as the Nova and Penn series play out. I think of this as necessary but nowhere near sufficient.

Some balance owl. PL with 5 OOC slots has a difficult path to fill those every year. Think Bison schedule is about the best to be expected. Adding more FBS and/or CAA is nigh on impossible nor do I think advisable. While I agree Lehigh could improve their OOC , I do not think overloading future schedules with FBS games is the solution. 2-3 games vs a variety of CAA.FBS,BigSouth,SoCon et al and the balance with Ivy and NEC.

[Sader87]

Possibly the toughest football schedule for Bucknell evah? Good for them.

The league has to play up if it's going to restore any relevance imo....seems like there are some postahs who would prefer we play Gettysburg or Washington&Jefferson rather than quality FCS or FBS schools.

[RichH2]

Possibly the toughest football schedule for Bucknell evah? Good for them.

The league has to play up if it's going to restore any relevance imo....seems like there are some postahs who would prefer we play Gettysburg or Washington&Jefferson rather than quality FCS or FBS schools.
Dont think anyone is digging that deep :). PL absolutely has to play stronger OOC scheds and, more importantly, do better OOC. Stronger scheds does not mandate FBS games. They are nice for AD budget and egos but to me it is much more important for us to compete and beat CAA and top 2-3 Ivies. Agree we should have some FBS games. I would love to see Rutgers, Temple,UCONN besides Army and Navy.

[DFW HOYA]

The PL does not need more teams over-scheduling and finishing 1-4 in the non-conference, rendering a second bid untenable. It needs to schedule to some level of reality.

What the PL needs is some sort of a scheduling bureau, where the league and the schools agree to coordinate schedules that make sense for the PL, not for the ego of an athletic director trying to sell a I-A game to his alumni. That means dialing back unecessarily tough schedules for the good of the league and to improve schedules whose outcomes are counterproductive.

I call it the "1-1-2" model: one game a school is "playing up", but two where they are favored to win, and two where there is little or no doubt they will win. Even with a stumble, you're still looking at 3-2 entering conference play, and more likely 4-1. Instead, by early October you could have as many as three teams staring at 1-4 or worse. And how does that help the league?

[UNHWildcat18]

The PL does not need more teams over-scheduling and finishing 1-4 in the non-conference, rendering a second bid untenable. It needs to schedule to some level of reality.

What the PL needs is some sort of a scheduling bureau, where the league and the schools agree to coordinate schedules that make sense for the PL, not for the ego of an athletic director trying to sell a I-A game to his alumni. That means dialing back unecessarily tough schedules for the good of the league and to improve schedules whose outcomes are counterproductive.

I call it the "1-1-2" model: one game a school is "playing up", but two where they are favored to win, and two where there is little or no doubt they will win. Even with a stumble, you're still looking at 3-2 entering conference play, and more likely 4-1. Instead, by early October you could have as many as three teams staring at 1-4 or worse. And how does that help the league?

lol if you go 1-4 ooc you dont deserve a bid even if one is an fbs loss. Teams need to prove the strength of their league with ooc. the PL is not a two bid league and what you just stated is not going to make it one.

Sorry but what you just proposed sounds absolutely asinine IMO

[RichH2]

lol if you go 1-4 ooc you dont deserve a bid even if one is an fbs loss. Teams need to prove the strength of their league with ooc. the PL is not a two bid league and the what you just stated is not going to make it one.

Sorry but what you just proposed sounds absolutely asinine IMO

I can understand DFW's point of view. I favor balance in our OOCs as opposed to over scheduling. PL must schedule up aggressively . Using that terminology, no more than 1 warmup game with the rest vs at least 2-3 tough FCS opponents with 2-3 FBS games over a player's 4 years.

[DFW HOYA]

I can understand DFW's point of view. I favor balance in our OOCs as opposed to over scheduling. PL must schedule up aggressively . Using that terminology, no more than 1 warmup game with the rest vs at least 2-3 tough FCS opponents with 2-3 FBS games over a player's 4 years.

The fan in me would certainly like to see three FBS schools calling Georgetown for a game over a four year period. None will.

[RichH2]

The fan in me would certainly like to see three FBS schools calling Georgetown for a game over a four year period. None will.

Someday,God willing and the creek dont rise. :) It would be great for Hoyas and PL.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Dont think anyone is digging that deep :). PL absolutely has to play stronger OOC scheds and, more importantly, do better OOC. Stronger scheds does not mandate FBS games. They are nice for AD budget and egos but to me it is much more important for us to compete and beat CAA and top 2-3 Ivies. Agree we should have some FBS games. I would love to see Rutgers, Temple,UCONN besides Army and Navy.

Ding Ding!! That's it! Anyone can schedule tough, especially when you're traditionally an easy win, but it actually takes commitment to be able to succeed with tough a schedule. Nothing from the Bison heading into 2018 indicate they're going to have any success against that schedule. My guess is they get blown out in a few of those games. I just think it's ridiculous to believe that upgrading the schedule without upgrading the program is a recipe for success. It's completely illogical. You need better players, better coaches, more administration commitment, more alumni support etc. to win. Otherwise you're just a cupcake that overschedules....

I see 3-8, maybe 4-7 for Bucknell next year. But based on playing a tough schedule some will spin it that they're heading in the right direction? Once again, it makes no sense.....

[RichH2]

Ding Ding!! That's it! Anyone can schedule tough, especially when you're traditionally an easy win, but it actually takes commitment to be able to succeed with tough a schedule. Nothing from the Bison heading into 2018 indicate they're going to have any success against that schedule. My guess is they get blown out in a few of those games. I just think it's ridiculous to believe that upgrading the schedule without upgrading the program is a recipe for success. It's completely illogical. You need better players, better coaches, more administration commitment, more alumni support etc. to win. Otherwise you're just a cupcake that overschedules....

I see 3-8, maybe 4-7 for Bucknell next year. But based on playing a tough schedule some will spin it that they're heading in the right direction? Once again, it makes no sense.....

Honestly dont know the best way to upgrade OOC schedules. Some of it, particularly FBS teams, is really at the whim of the FBS schools. If you want one or two, you may not have any option as to when you get them. The crucial issue is actually improving our teams.Prevailing theory seems to be that if you get FBS games , you will get better players. It seems like putting the cart before the horse but perhaps they are right. Time will tell. I dont like Lehigh's apparent reluctance so far to be at least a little proactive. I agree with Andy's desire to schedule CAA every year with a mix of Ivies. NEC games are inevitable but hopefully not our only option.

[Neighbor2]

To get better players you need to give them a realistic chance to win a National Championship.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Honestly dont know the best way to upgrade OOC schedules. Some of it, particularly FBS teams, is really at the whim of the FBS schools. If you want one or two, you may not have any option as to when you get them. The crucial issue is actually improving our teams.Prevailing theory seems to be that if you get FBS games , you will get better players. It seems like putting the cart before the horse but perhaps they are right. Time will tell. I dont like Lehigh's apparent reluctance so far to be at least a little proactive. I agree with Andy's desire to schedule CAA every year with a mix of Ivies. NEC games are inevitable but hopefully not our only option.

This OOC schedule talk is like the Seinfeld episode when Jerry's at the car rental counter explaining the difference between making a reservation and keeping a reservation. Anyone can fill out a quality schedule but it actually takes work to hold up your end of the bargain to make it matter.....

[BucBisonAtLarge]

There obviously are many moving part to a successful program. Schedule is just one. A dynamic offense would be nice, too. Given the time scale involved with taking scheduling in a new direction, I'm pleased with how Bucknell has moved. None of these in 2018 are unwinnable, either.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

There obviously are many moving part to a successful program. Schedule is just one. A dynamic offense would be nice, too. Given the time scale involved with taking scheduling in a new direction, I'm pleased with how Bucknell has moved. None of these in 2018 are unwinnable, either.

Perhaps not technically but the odds certainly aren't in the Bison's favor. I think points spreads will suggest a Bison blowout loss rather than a win in a few of those games. When was the last time Bucknell beat a team from the A10/CAA? Off the top of my head I can't think of one in the last 20-25 years.....

[DFW HOYA]

. When was the last time Bucknell beat a team from the A10/CAA? Off the top of my head I can't think of one in the last 20-25 years.....

Looks to be a November 1983 win over Delaware per the media guide.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Looks to be a November 1983 win over Delaware per the media guide.

35 years, wow. Reality people, reality....

[ngineer]

I think Lehigh's OOC schedule for 2018 is formidable, but good. Two Ivies, 'nova will be challenges, but winnable with well played games. Navy is obviously a severe challenge, and then there is St. Francis, who is no longer chopped liver (though I know a lot of people look down on that game because they are not a "name" opponent).

[RichH2]

I think Lehigh's OOC schedule for 2018 is formidable, but good. Two Ivies, 'nova will be challenges, but winnable with well played games. Navy is obviously a severe challenge, and then there is St. Francis, who is no longer chopped liver (though I know a lot of people look down on that game because they are not a "name" opponent).
Those who look down on SFU really should look at their results the last few years. Their recruiting class this year is excellent by any measure. Not one cupcake in our OOC. Up to us to do better.

[Fordham]

This OOC schedule talk is like the Seinfeld episode when Jerry's at the car rental counter explaining the difference between making a reservation and keeping a reservation. Anyone can fill out a quality schedule but it actually takes work to hold up your end of the bargain to make it matter.....
Ha! Great episode

[Doc QB]

This OOC schedule talk is like the Seinfeld episode when Jerry's at the car rental counter explaining the difference between making a reservation and keeping a reservation. Anyone can fill out a quality schedule but it actually takes work to hold up your end of the bargain to make it matter.....

Yes, and their schedule may tell us if Bucknell is 'master of their domain...'

[RichH2]

Article in Boston Herald about Holy Cross. The College has suspended a number of athletes in various sports for possible NCAA rule violations pending a school investigation. No info was given as to which sports or athletes were involved.

[Go...gate]

Article in Boston Herald about Holy Cross. The College has suspended a number of athletes in various sports for possible NCAA rule violations pending a school investigation. No info was given as to which sports or athletes were involved.

Any new information on this?

[DFW HOYA]

Any new information on this?

Men's basketball.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/college/college_basketball/2018/02/three_holy_cross_basketball_players_suspended_due_ to

[van]

Men's basketball.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/college/college_basketball/2018/02/three_holy_cross_basketball_players_suspended_due_ to

yikes, their BB team was struggling before the suspensions, now they are dog meat

[RichH2]

Men's basketball.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/college/college_basketball/2018/02/three_holy_cross_basketball_players_suspended_due_ to

Ugh. Carmody was having a tough enough time building his team. Hopefully , players get exonerated

[DFW HOYA]

Ugh. Carmody was having a tough enough time building his team. Hopefully , players get exonerated

http://www.telegram.com/news/20180207/3-holy-cross-basketball-players-suspended-before-historic-loss

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I think Lehigh's OOC schedule for 2018 is formidable, but good. Two Ivies, 'nova will be challenges, but winnable with well played games. Navy is obviously a severe challenge, and then there is St. Francis, who is no longer chopped liver (though I know a lot of people look down on that game because they are not a "name" opponent).

Lehigh's 2018 is a perfectly fine FCS schedule. Obviously I'm not a huge fan of Navy but objectively speaking it makes sense. I still maintain Lehigh has scheduled really well in terms of quality/practicality over the last 7-8 years year. The only real issue has been the repetitive nature of the opponents. I wouldn't schedule Monmouth until Sterrett and Coen are sure they can UNI their butts. Monmouth has improved yes, but not to the point they should be owning Lehigh and the rest of the PL....

[the last indian]

I guess you mean "too" early. Aren't we supposed to be smart people?

[PAllen]

I guess you mean "too" early. Aren't we supposed to be smart people?

The quote function exists for a reason.

[UNHWildcat18]

Lehigh's 2018 is a perfectly fine FCS schedule. Obviously I'm not a huge fan of Navy but objectively speaking it makes sense. I still maintain Lehigh has scheduled really well in terms of quality/practicality over the last 7-8 years year. The only real issue has been the repetitive nature of the opponents. I wouldn't schedule Monmouth until Sterrett and Coen are sure they can UNI their butts. Monmouth has improved yes, but not to the point they should be owning Lehigh and the rest of the PL....

What kind of scared "no balls" statement is that? They've gone to 63 scholarships for the last what 3 years? they've been improving facilities, recruiting better talent and doing well under the current coaching staff.


Last season they were simply better than all of the PL schools. If you think for some reason the PL should be above them and not schedule them unless they can "UNI them", then that probably won't happen anytime soon.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

What kind of scared "no balls" statement is that? They've gone to 63 scholarships for the last what 3 years? they've been improving facilities, recruiting better talent and doing well under the current coaching staff.


Last season they were simply better than all of the PL schools. If you think for some reason the PL should be above them and not schedule them unless they can "UNI them", then that probably won't happen anytime soon.

It has nothing to do with "no balls". Rather, Lehigh has played Monmouth a ton in the last 20 years (probably more than any other school OOC school not named Princeton) and it's embarrassing to watch the Beach Hawks own the Mountain Hawks recently. Until, Lehigh feels compelled to right the ship and step up their game they should schedule someone else from the Big South. Like I said, Lehigh's schedules have become way too repetitive. What makes that repetitiveness even worse is when you're losing to the same decent but not gret team over and over.

Monmouth has stepped up their game but their facilities are still nothing "great". Bottom line, the PL and Lehigh MUST get better. To be getting thumped by Monmouth is embarassing.

[Gate83]

It has nothing to do with "no balls". Rather, Lehigh has played Monmouth a ton in the last 20 years (probably more than any other school OOC school not named Princeton) and it's embarrassing to watch the Beach Hawks own the Mountain Hawks recently. Until, Lehigh feels compelled to right the ship and step up their game they should schedule someone else from the Big South. Like I said, Lehigh's schedules have become way too repetitive. What makes that repetitiveness even worse is when you're losing to the same decent but not gret team over and over.

Monmouth has stepped up their game but their facilities are still nothing "great". Bottom line, the PL and Lehigh MUST get better. To be getting thumped by Monmouth is embarassing.

You're 5-3 against them in the last 20, losing the last 3 in a row. How is that embarrassing? I'd be hoping to beat them, not run away...

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

You're 5-3 against them in the last 20, losing the last 3 in a row. How is that embarrassing? I'd be hoping to beat them, not run away...

I think that's the issue. Especially with the original pre-conceived belief that scholarships would help improve Lehigh's/the PL's ceiling. But they've helped with Monmouth? Perhaps....

[Gate83]

I think that's the issue. Especially with the original pre-conceived belief that scholarships would help improve Lehigh's/the PL's ceiling. But they've helped with Monmouth? Perhaps....

Aren't you the guy who thinks the PL needs to do better OOC? And you're running away from Monmouth after they've "repetitively" beaten you all of 3 times in a row? Seems to me you should right that wrong rather than looking for a tastier cupcake...

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Aren't you the guy who thinks the PL needs to do better OOC? And you're running away from Monmouth after they've "repetitively" beaten you all of 3 times in a row? Seems to me you should right that wrong rather than looking for a tastier cupcake...

Well it's hard to do worse than 0-5 in the OOC! But Lehigh managed to pull off the rare 0-6 feat! Lehigh and the rest of the PL absolutely needs to do better in the OOC. My point is, losing to the same "good but not great" team year after year gets old. Maybe Lehigh should try their luck with someone else that's of a similar ilk to Monmounth. If they get over THAT hump maybe when they play Monmouth again their mojo will be better.

Bottom line, Monmouth should not be owning Lehigh or the PL in general. It's painful to see....

[DFW HOYA]

Bottom line, Monmouth should not be owning Lehigh or the PL in general. It's painful to see....

Monmouth is successfully running the game plan which elevated Stony Brook past the PL - heavily recruit regionally where kids may not get the Rutgers or Penn State offers but who want to stay local and play, and who aren't fenced in by the Ivy Index. The Hawks had 43 from NJ and 22 from NY on its 2017 roster.