The Patriot League and Redshirting

[carney2]

I'll pose the question and then walk away (for a while):

How do you allow redshirting in the Patriot League in a manner that would be fair and equitable to all schools?

[RichH2]

I'll pose the question and then walk away (for a while):

How do you allow redshirting in the Patriot League in a manner that would be fair and equitable to all schools?

My thought is to allow each team to redshirt a set number of frosh ie up to 5 each year with no more than 10 at any time. This would not include medical and certain hardship redshirts that NCAA allows.

[van]

I think it is a red herring, not a big deal, just get the coaches to recruit better and let roster grow a little, fair for everyone

or LC could red shirt and let their 5th year guys transfer to LU for graduate school

[van]

since I know that Carney is asking this in a serious manner, I pulled out some data that explains why I think this is a red herring

in 2016 Lehigh had 17 seniors on the roster, the theory is that if they had red shirted they would be available to play in 2017 and make the team much stronger, here is the data on those 17:

2 of 17 were 5th year guys due to losing a year due to injury
1 of 17 missed a year due to injury and could have played in 2017 but did not
3 of 17 missed a year due to injury and did play in 2017
2 of 17 did not play at all their freshman year and would have been able to play in 2017 as a red shirt, both were back ups in 2016 that saw some action

9 of 17 saw some game action as freshmen, of those 9:

Shaf and Caslow were significant contributors to the success of the 2013 team and a red shirt would have likely been burned for them
Leaks and Ripanti saw significant time as frosh, mostly on special teams and one could argue that an upperclassmen could have filled that role and allowed them to redshirt
2 were OL that appeared in only a couple games as frosh and a redshirt could have worked for them, although there are already 2 5th year OL this year
the remaining 3 were a WR who contributed as 3rd or 4th option in 2016, a TE with 1 reception in 2016, and a fullback with 14 carries in 2016

so I just don't see where not being able to redshirt is that big a disadvantage, particularly at PL schools where tuition $$ are high which works against large number of walk ons and roster sizes

[van]

also, I think Carney's point was about LC and HC which do not have graduate programs for 5th year guys, did HC redshirt back when they coulda been in the Big East?

[DFW HOYA]

Does/will the PL allow greenshirting?

[RichH2]

Does/will the PL allow greenshirting?

Do you mean grey shirting? ie Having a recruit wait until 2nd semester before enrolling so he counts against the next year's schollie quota.Or Ivy practice of parking a kid at a local JC for freshman year?
Greenshirting may refer to having a kid enroll a semester earlier so that he counts against the prior years recruit class.
Reading rules I dont think any are specifically banned.. I dont recall any Jr admits for Lehigh. Guess it would be possible if a kid qualified for admission.

[DFW HOYA]

Do you mean grey shirting? ie Having a recruit wait until 2nd semester before enrolling so he counts against the next year's schollie quota.Or Ivy practice of parking a kid at a local JC for freshman year?

Greenshirting refers to HS recruits enrolling one semester early, where they are on scholarship and participate in spring practice but their eligibility clock begins in the fall.

[RichH2]

Cant find anything to preclude it. We have no annual cap. So not all that relevant to PL. Not sure how it would work if a team is at PL cap already and the greenshirt enrolls in Spring semester on scholarship. My guess is he would still count vs PL cap.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Leaks and Ripanti saw significant time as frosh, mostly on special teams and one could argue that an upperclassmen could have filled that role and allowed them to redshirt

With these two players alone Lehigh's defense would have been much, much better this year.

Now imagine Haffner and Norris get an extra year to adjust to school and have their bodies mature another year.

Now add to this two more redshirted players at, I dunno, OL and DL during another year

Even 8 more players like this would improve Lehigh immensely. It would also mean Lehigh is doing what all of the other schools on their schedule are doing (and if you think the Ivies don't effectively redshirt their players, I have a bridge to sell you). So... how is this a red herring, again?

[carney2]

also, I think Carney's point was about LC and HC which do not have graduate programs for 5th year guys, did HC redshirt back when they coulda been in the Big East?

And 'gate. And Bucky. (That's 4 out of 7 in case you've lost count. That is a BIG DEAL in this argument.) 137 says that the Buffaloes have a thing about 5th year players and haven't had one in 15 years.

[PAllen]

Greenshirting refers to HS recruits enrolling one semester early, where they are on scholarship and participate in spring practice but their eligibility clock begins in the fall.

Any academically focused school that is against this is just full of itself. Assuming these are all kids who have completed their HS graduation requirements in the fall.

[PAllen]

And 'gate. And Bucky. (That's 4 out of 7 in case you've lost count. That is a BIG DEAL in this argument.) 137 says that the Buffaloes have a thing about 5th year players and haven't had one in 15 years.

Odd since Bucknell has a decent sized graduate program.

[Franks Tanks]

Odd since Bucknell has a decent sized graduate program.

Bucknell reported 60 grad students in 2015, and I believe Colgate has even fewer.

[WestCoastAggie]

Greenshirting refers to HS recruits enrolling one semester early, where they are on scholarship and participate in spring practice but their eligibility clock begins in the fall.

That's a good idea. We allow this in the MEAC.

[Doc QB]

With these two players alone Lehigh's defense would have been much, much better this year.

Now imagine Haffner and Norris get an extra year to adjust to school and have their bodies mature another year.

Now add to this two more redshirted players at, I dunno, OL and DL during another year

Even 8 more players like this would improve Lehigh immensely. It would also mean Lehigh is doing what all of the other schools on their schedule are doing (and if you think the Ivies don't effectively redshirt their players, I have a bridge to sell you). So... how is this a red herring, again?

Agree w LFN here, not a red herring. Although I still maintain roster quality (and the coaches attracting it) are the PLs biggest impediments to progress, remember there will be a few guys who can come back and be impact contributors AND guys who are not asked to come back. Happens at scholarship schools all the time, it's why u need to be on track to graduate. Can be yet another difficult part of the roster grid for a HC to manage...get a new kid and ask a veteran kid to move on, or keep him?

The no grad school thing is a non-issue if programs want to redshirt. Taking 4.5 years to graduate from a PL school, with their undergrad degree while playing football should not be considered sub-par or weak. These are tough schools, tough sports commitments, some kids w major/minor and research projects that could require the extra time to be successful.

Or look at it another way...non-athletes chose schools based on a particular major all the time. If school A doesn't offer the major and a grad year for a Masters program and school B does, school A loses. Why is that any different than a recruit who sees five returning Qbs on a roster, or a bad weight room, and pipicks one school over another? Why should the school w a grad program not be able to exploit its programs as an advantage?

Presidents just don't want us to have too much in common with the football factories, and that is shortsighted crap. The nature of the kids that can play in PL and complete the work, and the AI will always prevent that, not stupid restrictions on roster sizes and red shirts.

[Sader87]

also, I think Carney's point was about LC and HC which do not have graduate programs for 5th year guys, did HC redshirt back when they coulda been in the Big East?

HC redshirted a little in the 80s...guys would take a semester or year off etc. but it wasn't done to a great extent if memory serves.

Pretty sure redshirting, particularly at the 1-AA level, wasn't done anywhere near as much in the 1980s as it is today.

[van]

With these two players alone Lehigh's defense would have been much, much better this year.

Now imagine Haffner and Norris get an extra year to adjust to school and have their bodies mature another year.

Now add to this two more redshirted players at, I dunno, OL and DL during another year

Even 8 more players like this would improve Lehigh immensely. It would also mean Lehigh is doing what all of the other schools on their schedule are doing (and if you think the Ivies don't effectively redshirt their players, I have a bridge to sell you). So... how is this a red herring, again?

Just remember that those 8 guys on redshirt are 8 guys that don't get recruited over the next 4 years, now if you redshirt 8 all league guys that's great, of course if half your incoming class is all league every year then who needs to redshirt

[RichH2]

Just remember that those 8 guys on redshirt are 8 guys that don't get recruited over the next 4 years, now if you redshirt 8 all league guys that's great, of course if half your incoming class is all league every year then who needs to redshirt

A bit simplistic van but not wrong either. The upside to redshirting is you give a few guys a year to mature and strengthen. We have a 17 yr old ( or just turned 18) starting at Rover today. Got run over for 2 long TD runs. A prime example of a kid who would benefit from a year. The year particularly good for OL kids to build up and acclimate to college lineplay in practice while losing a year eligibility.

[van]

I agree that most every kid could benefit from a redshirt year or a PG year for that matter, I enrolled as a 17 year old and although not a FB player I would have benefited from a redshirt academic year, LOL

my point is that there are numerous tradeoffs for that, and I don't see that much benefit, (spread 60 rides over 5 years instead of 4 for example) fans should quite griping and making excuses about not having redshirts, 63 vs 60 has more impact imho

[RichH2]

Agree that 63 will have much more immediste impact adfing 3 to 6 players.

[DFW HOYA]

63? I'd take 10 at this point.

[PAllen]

Bucknell reported 60 grad students in 2015, and I believe Colgate has even fewer.

That surprises me considering the number of masters programs they offer. I've known a few folks who did the five year BS/MS program in engineering.

[crusader11]

63? I'd take 10 at this point.

If you're looking for sympathy, you won't find it here.

[DFW HOYA]

If you're looking for sympathy, you won't find it here.
There is no sympathy in college football.